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ceofcatgirls · 26 days ago

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Ok so here's a text post explaining why I think it's kinda obvious that Messmer is directly Radagon's son :PPP since I either don't see many ppl talk abt it or see ppl outright deny it so let me try get my interpretation out there into the world. You don't have to agree with it I just want to put my thoughts into a cohesive post.

Just a heads up. This post will end up having me sound like I'm insane.

But tbh most ER theories will have you like that and we're here to have fun are we not. So what if I sound a lil insane at times. I think that's normal (I will try to be as consise as I can I promise)

I will now start with the weakest evidence.

Theme song.

As you may know, since its been pointed out a lot, Messmer's theme is reminiscent of Radagon's.

I believe this does point to a connection to them. After all, this is a method uses by FromSoft with other characters. For example, Romina's theme song is reminiscent of Malenia's, with it sounding slightly altered to show Romina likes the rot whilst Malenia does not. They're connected through the rot god.

Same with PCR's theme and Starscourge Radahn. SR's theme sounds more tired and weak due to Radahn rotting, whilst PCR's sounds more triumphant and heroic. After all, it's meant to be Radahn at his prime, not at his lowest like with SR.

So naturally, Messmer's theme being reminiscent of Radagon's is an indication of something. But that something, so far is vague.

Maybe it's because they're both attached to an idealised version of Marika. Maybe it's because they both uphold an order of hers, Radagon with the GO and Messmer with his crusade and subsequent occupation. Ideals Marika no longer follows, but people close to her do.

As I said, this is possibly the weakest evidence. But it's the starting point that there is some sort of connection. That connection judt being Marika, for now.

Now, the second weakest evidence (imo)

Messmer's looks.

Perhaps one of the most glaring things about Messmer is his red hair. Radagon's children, with the exception of Miquella, all have red hair. So when you see a demi god with red hair, it's fair to assume you'll think they're Radagon's child. Hell, this goes for more than demi gods. This goes for the fire giants and potentially even leone misbegotten warriors.

But,,,, well, there's a reason why this is the second weakest evidence.

Because, there is a possibility that one of Radagon's children, besides Miquella, also didn't have red hair. Rykard's hair colour is surprisingly a topic of debate. There's evidence for him having red hair, but also for him being blond.

If Rykard is truly blond, this would mean that Marika's genes carry through Radagon even if he doesn't have children with her (well-- they are the same person after all). Who's to say it isn't the same case for Messmer? Who's to say Messmer has red hair because Radagon's genes carry through Marika, as they are the same person after all.

Maybe Messmer has the same condition as Radagon, where Radagon's red hair is potentially a curse of the fire giants, perhaps Messmer's is a by-product of his fire.

Again, this evidence is weak for a reason. But like the precious one, it hints at a connection.

Third (and last) weakest evidence: (weaker) themes

Messmer is a character of many themes. But one of his parallels is one he has with Malenia.

They both try to uphold and fight for an order of someone they care for. That someone also being a god (well, miquella was an empyrean but he does eventually become a god). A god with golden hair, and a god who weaves gold in their order (gold for Marika and unalloyed gold for miquella). Messmer and Malenia both have red hair, both are blind, and both are cursed from birth. We know Malenia's curse comes from an outer god, but Messmer's seems to he more mysterious. Still, nonetheless both are cursed from birth.

Messmer being a son of Radagon would further emphasis these themes. Him having a child that wants to uphold Marika's will, but then having another willing to do anything to do anything to replace it (going as far as to break her needle and bloom), would fit nicely thematically.

Still, it's not the strongest of evidence. It's nice, nonetheless.

Now, onto what imo are the stronger sets of evidence.

Starting out with the 'weakest' of the strongest: Gaius' remembrance.

Let's look at what the description of his remembrance says.

This is probably one of my most crackpot theories too. But whatever I like so kkkkkk let's move on.

The usage of the word 'elder brother' is what I want to draw attention to. Personally when I first read this remembrance, this was my legit reaction:

BROO maybe this is me being insane and delusional but I don't understand why this isn't talked about further by anyone!!!! The game says both were elder brothers to Radahn.

Now. Yes this could just be the game saying Messmer and Radahn were bros and since Messmer was older he was considered an older brother to Radahn like how Gaius was.

But. FromSoft very much pays attention to details. Including the words they use. Messmer is very obviously Marika's son, is it far-fetched to say they weren't aware of what they were doing when writing that description??

This is the same game company that enjoys seeing all the fan interpretations even if they clash with one another.. they defo wrote this knowing some would read it as Messmer being a metaphorical older brother whilst others will read it as him being his literal older brother.

Mind you, this isn't the first time they've done this. They do it in another instance of the DLC! And it's one I don't see many talk about either. Miquella calling St Trina his love can be both read as her being a manifestation of his love, or her being a part of himself that he loves. Trina being called his fate, rather than love, in the trailer means the waters are further muddied on what Miquella means by "his love".

But anyways, I'm just saying FromSoft is very deliberate with their words and what they choose.

It'd be a nice way to contrast Gaius' and Messmer's characters; one Albinauric, another a Demi god. One in one of the most mistreated races, and another born of divinity. They are opposite in man ways, but they looked past it and found common ground where a friendship could flourish.

It's also just generally a nice double play on the word brother. Very cheeky. Hidding two stories in plain sight with one word is exactly up FromSoft's alley, and they write it very well too.

This evidence, coupled with other evidence, leads me to believe that what FromSoft means is that Gaius is a metaphorical older brother whilst Messmer is a literal older brother (even if he himself does not know this and only sees himself as an older brother in a metaphorical way).

The next theory is another one that relies on themes. But well. Elden Ring is no stranger to those.

Let me just point out, every marriage Marika is involved in results in three children.

Marika/Godfrey; Godwyn, Morgott and Mohg.

Radagon/Rennala; Radahn, Rykard, Ranni.

And yet, with Marika and Radagon, it's just Malenia and Miquella. But then who could be the third child? Would FromSoft really not continue this very clear pattern?

Messmer fills the spot of third (but actually first since hes oldest?) quite nicely.

He'd help create a parallel between Marika's marriage with Godfrey and her marriage with Radagon. In both marriages, she has twins cursed by outer gods. But Messmer was born cursed whilst Godwyn was not because Messmer was born of the same god. Even in name, Godwyn takes after Godfrey, who unlike Marika does not have to carry the burden of his sins. But Messmer couldn't escape from that in the same way.

But, couldn't Melina potentially actually be the third child?

Well, not really, because Melina's themes wouldn't fit that. If she were to be the secret third child, she'd be following convention. But part of Melina's character is that she breaks convention-- particularly she helps you break convention. And that theme is best portrayed by having her actually be the fourth child of theirs.

As I discussed before, thematically Messmer and Malenia fit together because they both wish to uphold an order. In this case, they'd take after Radagon (who is also potentially cursed who couldve guessed...). Miquella and Melina take after Marika, as she is a god, like Miquella, and they both additionally have other halves. Marika also wants a new order, like Melina. Melina is fine with sacrificing herself to being about a new age, just like Marika, and knows she needs to die, not only for the Erdtree to burn, but also because all of Marika's influence must end. She, unlike Miquella, is successful because she learns from Marika's mistakes, because Miquella doesn't realise he'd be like his mother.

It also fits the running theme of Miquella being paired up with Malenia and Messmer being paired up with Melina (one closed eye, both having a vision of fire, which is dangerous to the erdtree) (and by paired up I mean storytelling wise ok 😭)

This briefly became abt melina.. whoops. I like her a lot in case you can't tell. Haha I could say more abt her but lets stop here. The main take away is; Messmer would be the third child of her union with Radagon (obviously cuz she would have to have him before she married Radagon), with the Empyrean twins and Omen twins fitting the role of twins cursed by outer gods, and Melina being special so she gets to be a 4th child uwu

Now. For the strongest theory imo. The butterfly theory.

Perhaps it's already been said, but it's simply not talked abt enough.

The butterfly theory, at least to me, is basically saying each child Marika has with Radagon is represented with a butterfly.

Messmer's only showed up in the DLC bc he's DLC exclusive ofc. But also because he was hidden away in the LoS.

We know the nascent and aoenian buttlerfly 100% correspond to Miquella and Malenia.

As for Melina and Messmer; the smoldering butterfly is said to kindle fires; Melina is the kindling maiden, and she self immolates to burn the erdtree. Even the "vision of fire" line in Messmer's kindling most likely refers to her. Again, wording is very important to FromSoft.

The black pyrefly butterfly is obviously Messmer's, as its said to follow lands scorched by Messmer's flames. They also resemble his fire in colour. And again, they are DLC exclusive and only appear in the LoS.

The reason why these 4 get butterflies and the other demigods don't, is because these 4 are specifically the children of Marika and Radagon. What else could connect them? What else sets them apart from other demigods?

Timeline issues.

I will briefly address these.

As I said, I believe Messmer and Melina are paired up. The Empyrean twins are twins, so timeline wise they showed up together. Imo, it seems Melina is the youngest, and obviously Messmer is the eldest. The start, and the beginning. Again it fits their stories and characters. They even have the same eye closed! With one due to Marika and the other potentially being due to GEQ... oh my.

I believe, personally, Marika has Messmer after ascending and marrying Godfrey, making Messmer a child made outside of marriage. And guess what I'm abt to say..... yes that also fits his theme kkkkkk since he's separated from the other demi gods-- who were not born outside of marriage-- and also goes with Messmer being cast away in the LoS, hidden and separated from everyone.

How do I know Marika has Messmer after marrying Godfrey? Well, its complicated, but this video explains nicely;

youtube

I dont agree with some points in the video. However, it's still an excellent video I recommend you watch. It has some excellent points and wonderful analysis. I like it a lot!!!!

The main point I want to point out, that the video shows nicely, is that Marika's marriages are shown through the ribbons on her arms. By her hair and crown, we can tell she's already a god. And by her having one armband, we can tell she's married one-- to Godfrey.

Personally, due to the description of the minor erdtree spell saying "the kindness of gold without order", I am led to believe Marika is gold and Radagon is order, akin to St Trina being Miquella's fate.

I will not get into Radagon's origins, tho I do believe he's always been marika. But if he is Order, then Marika is able to have a child with him after becoming a god and marrying Godfrey. Since it leaves a nice window of time between Godfrey winning against the fire giants and thus the era of the erdtree being established, and then Radagon showing up in the Liurnian wars. In my mind, I don't see why it's not possible.

Why would she have her first child with Radagon? Lol, who knows. Maybe since he is Order, she wanted her child to inherent that trait (as she hadn't grown to hate the Golden Order by now, its early in the timeline). Maybe she wanted her firstborn to be a child of one god. Maybe she wanted to retry and make Shamen again. Who knows, really.. tho personally I lean more to the first option I gave.. It'd make more sense, in terms of character development.

And now, does Messmer know of Radagon? Who knows! Perhaps he's including Radagon when speaking about his mother, knowing they're the same person so he addresses them as one. Or maybe he thinks Godfrey is his dad. Or maybe Marika told him he has no father. Or maybe he knows of Radagon, doesn't know he's Marika, and just doesn't care who is dad is. Honestly, this question can have many answers lol.

Hopefully this made sense. I am writing this quite late at night (-.-)Zzz・・・・ if I have anything else to add.. I prob will later. I'll go over grammar and spelling mistakes after I wake up. Forgive my eepy brain. Hopefully I remembered all my points. And hopefully this was cohesive.

If you have anything to add pls don't hesitate to do so :3<<<<

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