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weirdmageddon · 10 months

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i love these tags this person is so right

actually, can you imagine if dave was raised by B1 roxy?

i wanna get into this actually

(ok i had to spend a few hours rewriting this because IT DIDNT FUCKING SAVE AFTER FIVE HOURS OF WRITING WHEN MY COMPUTER UPDATED WHILE I WAS AFK so it would mean a lot to show this post some appreciation. i LOVEEE hearing what other people have to say)

even though these things mom does are presented in an extravagant, kitsch, jokey way, her intentions always came from a place of sincerity. she is simply Funnie

but rose reads too far into it and assumes things that aren't there, that her mother is passive-aggressively feigning interest in rose's interests simply because the things she does are so extra. "why do all of this if not to mock me"

im telling you right now if dave lived in this household he wouldn't assume antagonism, he'd go,

don’t forget who LITERALLY patented tangible jpeg artifacts as their post-scratch adult self and scattered shitty scummed up statue of liberties all over the planet. theres no way some of that overboard artful shit wasnt post-ironic / circling back around to genuine funny sincerity

dave's natural state is funny sincerity like roxy. he's had the natural capacity for this type of humor from the start and this is the direction he goes towards when he grows out of his brother's shadow by the end of the comic. dave and roxy share an earnest “so bad its good” type of humor

(lots more under the cut; the length of this meta analysis just got unwieldly with all the pictures and whatnot)

despite the alcoholism, roxy is a supportive mother. she's not the ideal guardian but hells of a lot more supportive of her kid than bro is. if she knew dave's interests she would totally indulge in them with some over the top silly goofy haha shit as a genuine gesture simply because she loves him

rose isn't too keen on it though. but she is more similar to dirk in her natural state of thinking of overthinking shit and assuming the worst, like the tags said

and yes dave got the sweet cuddly yet sometimes backhanded ouppy gene from roxy, probably even moreso lol

roxy's even said rose "sounds like girl dirk"

side tangent here, but this is something i wanna talk about.

i dont think bro should ever be in custody of children ever but if theres anyone who would be up to the task it's rose probably. i know she'd be able to keep up with him. not only does she have a defined personality (dave is more malleable and absorbs his environment like a sponge), if anyone can pick apart B1 dirk's batshit brain and probably be right on the money it's her. lil cal has been pumping patriarchal nonsense into bro's head and rose would be able to bring the fucking facts to the table without losing her own and being a living example of a badass little girl. i also don't think bro would try to force masculine roles onto rose like he did with dave, seeing as she is a girl, so she would actually have more of a leg up and get some passes that dave was never afforded. and rose wouldn't stand idly and accept any bullshit; she is no doormat. and i think this would earn bro's respect

but anyway, from this, couldn't we conclude roxy "sounds like girl dave"?

yeah okay. we havent even gotten into their penchant for funny typos or misspeaks, deliberate or otherwise

so, dave's environment

the sentiment "god you hope you can be as good as your bro at this some day" might have been genuine at the time when he idolized bro but of course he's not able to express that in any sort of sincere fashion because he's in dirk's fucking household. and this level 10 irony shit isnt doing dave any favors

his role models were the Internet and a vague idea of what Bro was like. So he built up his facade based on irony–not the literary definition of irony, as Rose might be quick to point out, but a popular concept of irony based on the idea that things that didn’t make sense actually made sense in some roundabout way. As a master of irony, Dave probably reasoned, he could see in a way other people couldn’t why a world that was scary and didn’t make sense really did make sense, and could therefore convince those people that he was superior to them. And he would wield his knowledge to maintain the appearance of superiority by calling everything ironic and pretending he didn’t care about things that didn’t make sense, and he would use walls of vaguely rhyming words to keep everyone at arm’s length so they wouldn’t discover his insecurities (source)

roxy's style is the embodiment of post-irony. being raised by mom lalonde would be like being raised by joel vinesauce ok

what can i say ….. (getting meta about this actually, hussie got these jpeg wizard wallpapers from a spyware website. link takes some time to load because internet archive)

rose is quick to read post-irony as actually being a joke/insincere, which in bro's case would be true. but i believe dave's natural instinct, outside of the influence of bro, is to read post-irony as genuine, which is exactly how mom serves it. we see this as early as act 3 from him; he understands her motives better than rose does herself:

and in act 6 intermission 2 i think it's pretty clear

but the thing is, it's always genuine from her. dave wouldn't have to second guess it because he's not one to naturally second guess someone's sincerity; that was learned due to his bro being virtually unassailable

there two types of ironies at play here:

seems like a joke, is actually genuine (roxy)

doesnt seem like a joke, is actually a joke (dirk)

you can make the argument that the second is is more psychologically destructive because it makes you question the reality of what is genuine sentiment and what isn't. dave never knew what was genuine and what was irony so he just sort of existed in this sincerity-ironic limbo and always did the opposite of what he genuinely felt on principle even if it always did originate from a genuine place.

"it just a joke bro i was just being ironic i dont actually x" is so much more trust-breaking and psychologically damaging than "wait are you being serious" / "i am being so fucking fr rn davy gravy" / "ok thats actually pretty fucking awesome. giant ass wizard statue" / "RIGHT"

how much about dave would change do you think? his character arc would be completely different for one thing, i think he'd have it good aside from mom's alcohol issues. he'd be left with the sweet and funny parts of him that we see at the end of the comic. the fake coolguy stuff is out, but this remains. this is dave in his element and we see it as early as act 1

he'd probably have no shades growing up in the lalonde residence* either cause those were given to him by bro straight out of the crater as an extension of his own cool image. and john gave dave ben stiller’s aviators for his 13th birthday to replace them so he could “spread his wings”

dave said he was wearing them for the ironies but i kind of doubt it. maybe post-irony but there was some reacharound to it being genuine because dave never put those pointy anime shades on his face again.

*though... it’s kind of hard to imagine him without his shades at all? B2 dave still got stiller’s shades from stiller himself so maybe getting them is a universal constant. i can imagine mom getting him them as a birthday gift cause shes pretty wealthy and probably could buy it out in an auction. but also itd be cool if john still gave him it as a gift

dave is actually a lot more genuine and easy to read than he lets on even when grappling with his upbringing with B1 dirk (again, see this post). this can be seen all throughout he comic but a good example is the evolution of thoughts about his interest in the preserved dead things in his room:

if B1 roxy was dave's guardian he probably WOULD have pursued paleontology because she wouldve indulged him in it and probably find it cool and worthwhile to pursue, instead of allowing dave to flounder under ironic detachment, being poisoned by irony to the point of gaslighting himself into believing he doesnt actually believe he thinks this shit is cool. even if it was indulged in this such a way; a superficially kitsch and ironic appearing presentation, it comes from a genuine place and inspires genuine interest. just read the comments.

basically, i think if B1 roxy raised dave, their relationship would have a surface level appearance of being bizarre or over-the-top but they’d have an unsaid mutual understanding that it’s completely in earnest and just build on each other's funny and absurd gestures of affection. rather than seeing it as one-upping each other, it'd more like collaboration of some silly bullshit that you take a step back and look at full and just say, "fucking incredible"

speaking of paleontology, mom had the proto-ectobiology lab. maybe they'd be able to use the equipment to appearify paradox ghost imprints of the dead shit to create paradox clones of things from the cambrian era??? sounds like a fun mother son bonding activity. and theyd actually put the sciencey shit in the household to use

oh god i know exactly the kinds of music shed listen too also growing up as a teen in the 80s. she on that (post)-punk/art rock/new wave/new romantic mtv stuff. XTC shit fr. this is a B-52S HOUSEHOLD. maybe the associates for the campy melodramatic flair. so he gets to keep the record on his shirt cause he is an enjoyer of the shit in her vinyl collection. dave would still gravitate towards musical expression and music itself but of more variety outside of just rap, with an 80s-90s, even 70s flavor due to mom’s influence. see this for perhaps a glimpse. she probably visited new york city a lot for business trips and because the music scene was cool as hell around that time, imports came straight from jfk airport, she probably got in on that a bit and have remnants in the form of vinyls and cassettes. in this way she could be distributing void to dave (influencing him with forgotten / presently irrelevant music). now he can REALLY rave about bands none of his friends have heard of. “hey davy grvay watcha listenin to” (he holds up vinyl cover) “omg snakefinger”

btw dave lalonde would look like this to me

#homestuck #homestuck meta #dave strider #mom lalonde #roxy lalonde #hs #strilonde guardian swap

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babybells123 · 1 month

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Regarding the original outline + some thoughts on Jon & Sansa…

This is a long one. Buckle up.

If there is one thing I have picked up on in the ASOIAF fandom, it’s the knee-jerk negative reaction towards any theory/parallel/connection between Jon and Sansa. This was exacerbated by the show, of course but even now - five years later, there is an insane amount of vitriol that my brain is unable to comprehend. And here’s the rub; the infamous 1993 outline is the irony of it all.

In a fandom that is a-okay with *certain* incest ships (r.e D@enerys x Jon, D@emon x Rh@enyra, Jon x Aria), as well as blatantly pedophilic ships (Sansa x S@ndor, Sansa x Littlefinger, Sansa x Tyrio*), how is Jon x Sansa the worst of them all? I’m going to pin it down to audience engagement with the show, particularly around the later seasons when Jon + Sansa reunite and people began to ‘ship’ them. So many believe that is how the ship took off, and thus it is mere crack - but there are posts tracking back to 2012/2013 theorising the possibility of Jon x Sansa. Was it spurred by the show? Certainly! But it does not take away from the fact that people were making valid arguments and essays before the general fandom was even comprehending a Jon and Sansa reunion on screen. And people were open to discussing/debating it with general civility (a far cry from today).

I’m 90% certain people weren’t criticising those who began to believe in Jon x Aria when the outline was leaked…(though there were most definitely shippers before). But we never see the same level of vitriol towards Jon x Aria shippers, which is strange.

In any case, let’s talk about said outline, some of the key points - and how I believe GRRM made the switch from Jon x Aria to Jon x Sansa. I’ll be drawing from GRRM’s past works, interviews, art, and his personal life - as well as other potential literary influences. I'll be linking metas along the way, but without further ado - let's go.

In October 1993, GRRM wrote a pitch outline for a publishing company. It was three pages long and conveyed alongside the first thirteen chapters of AGOT (170 pages). The three paged letter was leaked on twitter in February 2014, though there were multiple aspects parts blacked out. Keep in mind though, this may not be the *only* outline that exists. There are multiple outlines that have never been publicly released (and will likely remain that way).

But let’s just focus on the 1993 outline, since we’re privy to the details. The thirteen chapters attached to the outline did *not* yet have a Sansa POV, and that’s because in this outline, she wasn’t listed as a key character.

The key characters were; Bran, Jon, Tyrion, D@enerys, and Aria.

The first thirteen chapters were; Prologue; Bran I, Catelyn I, D@enerys I, Eddard I, Jon I, Catelyn II, Aria I, Bran II, Tyrion I, Jon II, D@enerys II, Eddard II, Tyrion II.

I’ve seen people claim that Sansa isn’t an important character since she wasn’t listed as a key character, but they conveniently leave out the fact that a) her chapters were not yet written, b)she was given an entirely different more passive storyline in this outline, c) she dies, d) this was far far before GRRM fleshed out his characters entirely - Sansa took on a life of her own and she became her own solid complex character with an arc in 4 out of 5 of the books; 25 chapters.

In fact, since the books have been published GRRM has regarded Sansa and the Starks as a main character as well;

Collider: In creating this world, did you start out with one family and then branch off into the rest of the world?

GRRM: Well, the Starks are certainly the centre of the story, when it begins. It all begins at Winterfell, with occasional cuts to Daenerys across the ocean, because there was no way I could get her into Winterfell. But, we bring all the characters together at Winterfell, and they’re all there for a while before they start to go their separate ways ... .But, the Starks are the centre of the book and, to a lesser extent, the Lannisters. They are still the major players.

Collider: When you went into this, did you intentionally take the children, put them in an adult setting and force them to be in very adult and complex situations?

GRRM: Yeah, the children were always at the heart of this. The Stark children, in particular, were always very central. Bran is the first viewpoint character that we meet, and then we meet Jon and Sansa and Arya and the rest of them. It was always my intention to do that.”

Collider report.

May 2016 - Balticon.

(…) George said he was “pissed” that the outline was posted in the office building and that someone took photos and shared them. He said it was a letter for him and the publisher only. He was very firm when telling this and it showed on his face.

He then said that he is not good with writing outlines, making book deadlines, and that often in outlines he was “making shit up”, and “characters changed along the way”.

He went straight from talking about the references in the actual books, to the “differences” in the outline from then to now. He did say that he still knows who sits the iron throne and the end game of the main 5, but also included Sansa, but did not give any details (for obvious reasons).

[question if he is still going with the 1991 ending]

“Yes, I mean, I did partly joke when I said I don’t know where I was going. I know the broad strokes, and I’ve known the broad strokes since 1991. I know who’s going to be on the Iron Throne. I know who’s gonna win some of the battles, I know the major characters, who’s gonna die and how they’re gonna die, and who’s gonna get married and all that. The major characters.

….

“So a lot of the minor characters I’m still discovering along the way. But the mains-”

[question if he knows Arya’s and Jon’s fates]

“Tyrion, Arya, Jon, Sansa, you know, all of the Stark kids, and the major Lannisters, yeah.”

Balticon report:

“Ah, how innocent I was… little did that guy in the picture imagine that he would be spending most of the next two decades in the Seven Kingdoms of Westeros with Tyrion, Daenerys, Arya, Sansa, Jon Snow, Bran, and all the rest.”

GRRM's live journal:

So Sansa has clearly developed into an important character from GRRM’s words, and the key-characters argument can cease, because It’s very tiring to dispel that when the characters and story took on a life of its own. (I mean, Jaime was meant to remain a villain, but he was clearly given somewhat of a redemption arc in the main series).

I paraphrased what was written here for this whole section, so go check out the longer post!

The Aria in the original outline:

*NOTE: I am blacking out her actual names in case the wrong people find this post. None of this anti her, please keep that in mind.*

Five central characters will make it through all three volumes, [...] The five key players are Tyrion Lannister, D@enerys Targaryen, and three of the children of Winterfell, Aria, Bran, and the bastard Jon Snow.

Joffrey will not be sympathetic and Ned [what appears to say] will be accused of treason, but before he is taken he will help his wife and his daughter Aria escape back to Winterfell.

Tyrion Lannister, meanwhile, will befriend both Sansa and her sister Aria, while growing more and more disenchanted with his own family.

When Winterfell burns, Catelyn Stark will be forced to flee north with her son Bran and her daughter Aria. Wounded by Lannister riders, they will seek refuge at the Wall, but the men of the Night's Watch give up their families when they take the black, and Jon and Benjen will not be able to help, to Jon's anguish. It will lead to a bitter estrangement between Jon and Bran.

Aria will be more forgiving ... until she realises, with terror, that she has fallen in love with Jon, who is not only her half-brother but a man of the Night's Watch, sworn to celibacy. Their passion will continue to torment Jon and Aria throughout the trilogy, until the secret of Jon's true parentage is finally revealed in the last book.

Abandoned by the Night's Watch, Catelyn and her children will find their only hope of safety lies even further north, beyond the Wall, where they fall into the hands of Mance Rayder, the King-beyond-the-Wall, and get a dreadful glimpse of the inhuman others as they attack the wilding encampment. Bran's magic, Aria's sword Needle, and the savagery of their direwolves will help them survive, but their mother Catelyn will die at the hands of the others.

Exiled, Tyrion will change sides, making common cause with the surviving Starks to bring his brother down, and falling helplessly in love with Aria Stark while he's at it. His passion is, alas, unreciprocated, but no less intense for that, and it will lead to a deadly rivalry between Tyrion and Jon Snow

Observations:

Exactly how old is Aria? Is she a warrior princess who cries at songs like her aunt? Does she enjoy/yearn for romance? Is she a stunningly beautiful maiden rivalling that of Cersei? How close were she and Jon? Did they have a good sibling relationship? Or were they distant? Does she look physically different to Jon? Does she have red hair?

The Sansa of the Original Outline:

‘Each of the contending families will learn it has a member of dubious loyalty in its midst. Sansa Stark, wed to Joffrey Baratheon, will bear him a son, the heir to the throne, and when the crunch comes she will choose her husband and child over her parents and siblings, a choice she will later bitterly rue.’

Tyrion Lannister, meanwhile, will befriend both Sansa and her sister Aria, while growing more and more disenchanted with his own family.

Jaime Lannister will follow Joffrey on the throne of the Seven Kingdoms, by the simple expedient of killing everyone ahead of him in the line of succession and blaming his brother Tyrion for the murders.

More observations:

How old is Sansa? Is she 16? 17? She’s conveyed as a less important character in this outline - why? Queen of the Seven Kingdoms? She dies? Jaime kills her? What is her relationship with Aria like? Are/were they close? Or was Sansa initially meant to be a two-tone villain who betrayed her family? Is she overwhelmingly beautiful? Or is she the plainer sister?

It’s quite clear that both ASOIAF Aria and ASOIAF Sansa are entirely different characters to their outlined counterparts.

In the outline, Tyrion sacks and burns Winterfell. In ASOIAF, It’s Theon and later Ramsay who does this. In the outline, it’s Bran, Aria, and Catelyn who go beyond the Wall. In ASOIAF, it’s Bran, Meera, and Jojen (and Hodor). There are a couple of other changes made here, but there seems a pattern where certain acts *still* occur in the main series, they’re just given to different characters (which makes sense, as GRRM grows organically with his characters.)

So, when we take into account the fact of ASOIAF Sansa being considered a main/key character, her marriage to Tyrion, and the possibility of her being the first to reunite with Jon - perhaps GRRM did keep a Stark x Snow romance - but gave it to a different sister.

In the 2016 Balticon report, GRRM stated he wished that ‘some past things didn’t have such strong foreshadowing and that newer things had stronger foreshadowing.’ You can make a case for J0nrya foreshadowing in the first book, but I’d argue that ACOK/ASOS is where the Jon/Sansa clues and foreshadowing is rife. (and there are certainly Jon/Sansa clues in the first book as well.)

Now to circle back. The Aria of this outline doesn’t have a personality - none of the characters do, really. We don’t know how old she is. Is she a teenager? Is she close in age to Jon? We know she has her needle, so can infer she is a fighter and spirited, but is there a soft romantic side to her? Does she cry at songs like her aunt Lyanna? Does she yearn for love? Is she immensely beautiful? For a narrative like this? It'd be likely if Jon and Tyrion are fighting to the death over her, sort of like gallant knights fighting each other to win the heart of a fair maiden (very romantic and idealistic, mirroring the songs and the stories).

(This is how I am certainly inferring such a scene would have gone).

The ASOIAF Aria we know and love took on a life of her own. She’s described as plain looking (some envision her to be more beautiful than characters like D@ny, Cersei, and Sansa though). - But just quickly on that matter, Aria is indeed compared to Lyanna in looks and spirit, though Lyanna’s beauty was described as wild and implied as non-conventional; different perspectives have different opinions on her. For example, Cersei, Jaime, Devan, the Maester who wrote the WOIAF don’t consider her anything special. Whereas Ned, Robert, and Rhaegar do. So it’s one of those instances where you aren’t exactly sure. In any case, Aria's looks aren't a driving factor in her arc, and I don’t see ASOIAF Tyrion (as creepy as he is) suddenly falling in love with her due to mere attraction because presently, Aria is all knobbly knees and elbows, stick thin, a child, not a maiden, who will still be a pre-teen at the end of the series, if there is no massive time jump.

SHE'S JUST A BABY.

But then, Tyrion did lust after Sansa, so there’s that… however ….

Sansa’s beauty is a driving force in her narrative arc. She is objectified for her beauty. Preyed upon because of her beauty; in many ways it causes her to suffer. It’s largely why LF is grossly infatuated with her - she’s beautiful like Catelyn. Tyrion is attracted to Sansa and wishes to bed her, the H0und intends to rape her during the Blackwater battle, he also comments on her breasts growing, Joffrey sexually humiliates her in court, Ser Dontos has a pervy infatuation with her, Cersei despises Sansa because she is younger, more beautiful etc which she views as a threat.

So, beauty is pertinent to Sansa’s narrative, and it isn’t vain or shallow to say so because it’s a large part as to why she suffers. And her physical beauty is meant to compliment her indulgence in romantic idealism; knights, chivalry, courtly love, beautiful appearances thus equating to good people. It also contributes to perceptions of Sansa; nothing more than a pretty, stupid girl with naive dreams.

So back to ASOIAF Aria: Her arc largely surrounds nature & nature, mercy, war trauma and survival, friendship, belonging, and family. For the majority of the story, she is a traumatised 10 year old travelling through a war torn country, witness to awful horrors, forced to assume multiple identities, until she goes to Braavos and begins her faceless man arc. But this is obviously not her endgame - she is going to go home eventually, that is quite clear.

You can argue she had a little crush on Gendry (as a 10 year old would) (and perhaps something may happen with him when she is older, I think GRRM has played with it.) But other than that, romance is not a central part of Aria's arc insofar. For outline Aria it was, but current ASOIAF Aria is on a completely different tangent all together.

(and that poor poor child is suffering immensely while this is all occurring). Currently, she has no time for/interest in it. She hasn’t been involved in betrothals/marriages, or had men lusting after her (save ‘Mercy’ and people men making brutalising sexual comments towards her). She disguises herself as a boy for a good chunk of the story as it is safer to travel.

No, I’m not trying to reduce any sexual trauma/objectification she suffers, she’s a little girl for heaven’s sake - I’m merely stating that what she is going through is in some ways similar and different to what Sansa is going through. (Who currently is in a in a very Lolita type situation with LF and men sexually intimidating/abusing her has been a key part of her arc - as I said, she suffers significantly due to her beauty. She is something to possess, she isn't real or tangible, she is a beautiful maid with a vast claim to the North.)

Anyway, ASOIAF Aria finds songs and romance ‘stupid.’

“Sansa would have shed a tear for true love, but Arya just thought it was stupid.” (Arya VIII ASOS)

(but that doesn’t mean she won’t encounter it later in life, it just means that at this point of the story, she isn’t interested/likely won't encounter some epic grand romance that outline Aria was likely destined for. (And she’s 11 for god’s sake!).

‘But Sansa was dreaming of love at that age!’

Sansa has been a romantic idealistic dreamer since she was a little girl. She adored those stories and is the literal embodiment of the mediaeval pre-raphaelite maiden depicted in art. It’s central to her story arc, to her qualities, and how she functions/copes with things around her. “Life is not a song.” Is so fundamental to that.

So to reiterate ASOIAF Aria is a completely different character to outline Aria- for all we know OG Aria was 15 years old, very beautiful to the point of men duelling over her, (just as depicted in art above) likely a romantic heroine, had consistent memory lapses that would cause her to “realise in terror, she had fallen for Jon,” and based off of GRRM’s past works - was probably a redhead.

“But OG Aria has a sword named needle!”

Indeed, but as I stated, we don’t know anything else about her beyond that. Many have theorised that D@ny and Jon are the epic romance of the series, but it’s clear from this particular outline that GRRM intended for it to be Aria and Jon as the epic major romance of the series. That would mean Aria would have to be a somewhat romantically-inclined character, for this development to appear natural and not forced. Based on her current ASOIAF arc, it doesn’t track for her character to make a sudden 180. Her softness and vulnerable moments come from thinking of her family and home. Insofar, this isn’t equated to yearning for love, romance, children, as Sansa has done from the beginning of the series.

Now, we know GRRM is a self-proclaimed romantic, and ASOIAF Sansa exists very much as a deconstruction of romanticism.

“He said he is a romantic, in the classical sense. He said the trouble with being a romantic is that from a very early age you keep having your face smashed into the harshness of reality. That things aren’t always fair, bad things happen to good people, etc. he said it’s a realistic world, so romantics are burned quite often. This theme of romantic idealism conflicting with harsh reality is something he finds very dramatic and compelling, and he weaves it into his work.” (2005 interview).

Sansa is arguably, the embodiment of this dismantling. But that doesn’t necessarily mean that love isn’t real, or that it doesn’t deserve to exist in a gritty world such as Westeros. There were many couples who had good, happy marriages, even after war and loss and trauma. For example, apart from the Jon Snow situation, Ned and Catelyn had a remarkably healthy relationship. So it is possible - the takeaway from the series is not that hoping is meaningless, dreams are meaningless, love is meaningless. More so that it is complicated, and it must coexist alongside all the chaos in order to achieve a sort of

equilibrium. A literal ‘Dream of Spring’ a hope for happiness, rather than happiness itself. It tracks with the bittersweet conclusion to the series ; it is a grimdark story, but that doesn’t necessarily mean it’ll be a grimdark ending where everyone good and noble dies and wishes/dreams/innate desires remain unfulfilled.

In fact, I argue that a lot of them will come true - but at what cost? It’ll be at the cost of loss and grief, of suffering upon suffering, but what’s inherently more powerful, what’s more subversive is having those characters persist and rebuild, regenerate, create a new world where love and chaos undoubtedly exist alongside each other, but just because there is chaos, that does not mean the love is miniscule or cancels out entirely.

Because if all these characters have the most unsatisfying, awful conclusions known to man, well - what was the point of everything? What was the point of their journeys? This isn’t a nihilistic story, and it won’t have a nihilistic ending like everyone assumes. It’s far more difficult for an author to craft such an ending, balancing things out whilst acknowledging all the loss and still holding out hope for a better future to come. That brighter days will arrive. That winter will end, and spring will be on the horizon.

“We may lose our heads, it’s true. But what if we prevail?” (Davos I ADWD).

And that right there, sums it up perfectly.

So you need characters like Sansa, characters like Brienne, D@ny, (you know what let’s just add all the Stark children of the series to the list, because every single character arc is about remaining resilient and prevailing in some way or another).

But it’s Sansa who exists as the meta character that embodies/indulges in all those romantic ideals that GRRM is intent on exploring - it thus makes perfect sense for it to be her that experiences the romance arc. Many people think she’ll end up with the H0und, or Harry the douchebag, because it’s a part of her growing up, maturing, learning from her negative biases etc etc but she shouldn’t have to be with abusive or douchy men to learn that. She’s already learned and suffered enough.

“It is my claim they want. No one will ever marry me for love.”

And how utterly heartbreaking that she has resigned to think this, with her arc only mid-way. But importantly, just a few chapters later she enters the garden of undisputed beauty and equates the snow landing on her face with romantic kisses, she dreams of innocence and winterfell, despite lamenting how she doesn’t belong in such a pure world, she steps out into it all the same. And she builds her home in the snow, content and for once - she’s the child she is, the child she is yearning to be.

So Sansa falling in love with Jon makes sense on a characteristic level. It’s something she never would have considered as a sheltered child, not just because he’s her bastard half brother but because he just didn’t exist in her idea of how the world works. He didn’t fit in with her idea of knights, and courtly love and chivalry. He wasn’t a gallant golden prince, he was dark, sulky and brooding. He existed on the parameters of her life, and she was comfortable with that distant association - but she still loved him, and he her.

Falling in love with Jon would equate to a dismantling of these previous prejudices she held; he’s utterly unconventional, the opposite of what she has shown attraction to (despite her first ‘love’ being Waymar Royce, who resembles Jon strikingly). The man she never really considered beyond courtesy and some scarce, fond memories - to be the one who restores her faith in men, in love, in dreams.

“Realising with terror that she has fallen in love with Jon… their passion will continue to torment them.”

tracks with Sansa’s characterisation particularly, her memory lapses, her clouded judgement, and inability to interpret things correctly (and something as confusing as this would certainly cause her to have some cognitive dissonance going on).

Not to mention caution around well… men. Because who would ever marry her for love? Who would ever take her for true? Love her without expectations and judgement? It’s Jon. Who has been there since the very beginning, who has been a silent unconscious hero, the answer to her prayers, who embodies all those romantic and knightly ideals she has so desperately wanted - despite her being unaware. Who has advocated for her claim - above everyone else.

“No one will ever marry me for love.” And that infamous Jon chapter follows. Jon who is never quite far from Sansa’s suitors. Jon, who has a similar dream of rebuilding Winterfell, of having children named after lost siblings, who wants to woo a girl by giving her a rose and loving beneath the heart tree - the heart of Winterfell. Who would undeniably want to have that beautiful soul-nourishing love he never received as a child, that he believes is perpetually unavailable to him.

Above all, they just fit together. It fits with GRRM’s William Faulkner-esque “the human heart in conflict with itself".” And this is a perfectly subversive way of encapsulating that Jon confusing brotherly love and affection with romance, struggling with the shame of it all - especially post-resurrection, the religious disillusionment that would occur, the notion of Jon being loved by the kind of girl he believed he never had the right to, who his deeply romantic heart is yearned for. (There is a reason GRRM let us know how badly Jon yearns for domesticity, Winterfell love, children, and a wife. He associates his love for Ygritte with her singing, her hair, her smile. He dreams of her tending to him with gentle hands) The simple yet meaningful things that have been denied to him because of his bastardry. And god, what better way to torment these two than by having them fall for each other - realising they fit each other so perfectly, yet tormented by their familial relation. Until, as the outline puts, the parentage is revealed.

Do I believe they will act on their feelings pre-parentage reveal? No. It’ll likely exist in the subtext, in private thoughts and actions. Angst, guilt. Again, the stuff that GRRM loves - the human heart is in conflict with itself.

Much like Lord Byron’s ‘The Bride of Abydos.” Where half-siblings fall in love with each other until they realise they are actually cousins. Lord Byron, who was famously in love with his half sister Augusta, who was a stranger to him for a good portion of his life until they properly got to know each other and fell in love. (Who does that sound like?’)

And if you’re wondering how Jon and Sansa could possibly connect to Lord Byron, well there is a ‘Byron the Beautiful’ in Alayne II AFFC, and Alayne I TWOW. GRRM has further instilled characters by the name of “Manfred” which is in reference to Lord Byron’s infamous work of the same name. (I urge you to check out all of Cappy's Byron metas, they are fantastic.

And, Jon has been called a “Brooding, Byronic, romantic heroine whom all the girls love.” GRRM knows what Byronic is inferring - he isn’t daft, he’s a writer - he reads other works and takes influence and sprinkles in so many things.

A Byronic character involves:

. . romantic melancholy, guilt for secret sin, pride, defiance, restlessness, alienation, revenge, remorse, moodiness, and such noble virtues as honor, altruism, courage, and pure love for a gentle woman. (Poetry Foundation, Lord Byron)

“GRRM: I was always intensely Romantic, even when I was too young to understand what that meant. But Romanticism has its dark side, as any Romantic soon discovers… which is where the melancholy comes in, I suppose. I don’t know if this is a matter of artistic influences so much as it is of temperament. But there’s always been something in the twilight that moves me, and a sunset speaks to me in a way that no sunrise ever has.”

Infinity plus:

And isn’t that exactly what he would be exploring with Jon and Sansa? It isn’t a conventional romance by any means. It could never exist normally until Jon’s parentage is revealed. And that is the tormented nature of it, that is the “bittersweetness” of it - it is rooted in realism, yes - and that to me, is Sansa receiving her true love, countering that no one would ever marry her for love. The gods will grant it to her, - but it’s wrapped up in this darker, morally ambiguous thing that is confusing for her, even though Jon would be her dream come true - he isn’t this neat little courtly golden package, but he embodies all those ideals more than any man she’s actually met.

It’s subversive to what both the characters and the readers expect, and it’s just a brilliant plot twist that screams unpredictability whilst fitting together like a perfect puzzle. It creates internal conflict and evokes those themes that GRRM loves to explore. By giving the ‘heroes’ of the series a motif such as incest is extremely bold; because it challenges the reader greatly. Some people don’t want Jon to end up with Sansa because it contradicts the image that they have of him in his head - the heroic male who will save the world with his heroic counterpart and together they shall rule the seven kingdoms. To embrace his father’s family, claim a dragon, fulfil the prophecy, be the third head of the dragon, reject his stark-ness. Very predictable. Done to death a thousand times over, and yet - it is what the general audience wants/expects. It’s what the dudebros who call him the ‘GOAT’ want, it’s what the Targ stans want, it’s what the show watchers wanted - but what does Jon want?

“Yet he could not let the wildlings breach the Wall, to threaten Winterfell and the north, the barrowlands and the Rills, White Harbor and the Stony Shore, even the Neck. For eight thousand years the men of House Stark had lived and died to protect their people against such ravagers and reavers . . . and bastard-born or no, the same blood ran in his veins. Bran and Rickon are still at Winterfell besides. Maester Luwin, Ser Rodrik, Old Nan, Farlen the kennelmaster, Mikken at his forge and Gage by his ovens . . . everyone I ever knew, everyone I ever loved.” (Jon II ASOS).

“I would need to steal her if I wanted her love, but she might give me children. I might someday hold a son of my own blood in my arms. A son was something Jon Snow had never dared dream of, since he decided to live his life on the Wall. I could name him Robb. Val would want to keep her sister's son, but we could foster him at Winterfell, and Gilly's boy as well. Sam would never need to tell his lie. We'd find a place for Gilly too, and Sam could come visit her once a year or so. Mance's son and Craster's would grow up brothers, as I once did with Robb.

"He wanted it, Jon knew then. He wanted it as much as he had ever wanted anything. I have always wanted it, he thought, guiltily. May the gods forgive me. It was a hunger inside him, sharp as a dragonglass blade.” (Jon XII ASOS).

“Red eyes, Jon realised, but not like Melisandre's. He had a weirwood's eyes. Red eyes, red mouth, white fur. Blood and bone, like a heart tree. He belongs to the old gods, this one. And he alone of all the direwolves was white. Six pups they'd found in the late summer snows, him and Robb; five that were grey and black and brown, for the five Starks, and one white, as white as Snow.”

He had his answer then." (Jon XII ASOS)

“He was the blood of Winterfell, a man of the Night's Watch. I will not father a bastard, he told her. I will not. I will not. "You know nothing, Jon Snow," she whispered.” (Jon VI ASOS)

“Ygritte answered for him. "His name is Jon Snow. He is Eddard Stark's blood, of Winterfell." (Jon VIII ACOK)

"Then you must do what needs be done," Qhorin Halfhand said. "You are the blood of Winterfell and a man of the Night's Watch." (Jon VI ASOS).

“You can't be the Lord of Winterfell, you're bastard-born, he heard Robb say again. And the stone kings were growling at him with granite tongues. You do not belong here. This is not your place. When Jon closed his eyes he saw the heart tree, with its pale limbs, red leaves, and solemn face. The weirwood was the heart of Winterfell, Lord Eddard always said . . . but to save the castle Jon would have to tear that heart up by its ancient roots, and feed it to the red woman's hungry fire god. I have no right, he thought. Winterfell belongs to the old gods.” (Jon XII ASOS)

“He sat on the bench and buried his head in his hands. Why am I so angry? he asked himself, but it was a stupid question. Lord of Winterfell. I could be the Lord of Winterfell. My father's heir.” (Jon XII ASOS).

“If I could show her Winterfell . . . give her a flower from the glass gardens, feast her in the Great Hall, and show her the stone kings on their thrones. We could bathe in the hot pools, and love beneath the heart tree while the old gods watched over us.” (Jon V ASOS).

“If he must perish, let it be with a sword in his hand, fighting his father's killers. He was no true Stark, had never been one … but he could die like one. Let them say that Eddard Stark had fathered four sons, not three.” (Jon IX AGOT).

Look, at the end of the day - we don't know how the story will go, but based off of Jon’s character arc? His thoughts? His actions? His relationships with his siblings? The fact that he has warged into a magical beast directly associated with Starks? The North? The Old Gods? The weir wood trees? I think that instead of GRRM having Jon go down the conventional disadvantaged male hero finding out he is a secret prince and thus becoming King and a proper Targ, GRRM will subvert expectations (much to audience displeasure) and do the opposite.

Learning of his true identity will just cause more angst and a major identity crisis. The one thing Jon finds real and solid, that no one can take from him - is that he is Ned Stark’s son. He raised him. Perhaps they don’t share a direct blood link. But that doesn’t matter, what matters is that he was raised by him, loved by him. So instead of choosing his father’s family; embracing the secret prince persona and fighting for the throne - he’ll choose his mother’s family. And I think that is beautifully conclusive.

But back to Jon and Sansa. GRRM is given the opportunity to explore the sort of impact this incest motif has on fundamentally good people. And I think this is what he originally intended to do with Jon and Aria.

Yes, we have Jaime and Cersei, but this is real sibling incest and rife with toxic narcissism, possession etc. We have the T@rgaryens, which are messy beyond belief and practice it due to blood purity.

But Jon and Sansa clearly differ from the rest, and that is because they exist partly as foils as to what we previously have seen. Similar to Jonnel x Sansa. By intentionally refraining from the development of a properly-close sibling relationship, making Jon and Sansa fundamental opposites visually, and associating them with entirely different cultures (yet writing their core personas as the same, their dreams compatible, their thought process and idealism similar).

GRRM manages to pave the way into such a romance that comes as a shock to the characters, the narrative, and readers themselves. Because no one, absolutely no one would see it coming, and the people who have been privy to the theory - immediately dismiss it - and become quite angry when it is brought up. Like I said earlier, a knee-jerk reaction.

To quote this brilliant meta right here:

‘Whether Jon and Sansa fall in love is up to the author and his intended exploration of literary/mythic themes that his predecessors have deployed. He is not writing from (or for) the moral values of show watchers and book readers, or their anecdotal hopes for how things “should be.” He’s writing a narrative that breaks away from conventional storytelling and what we expect from such characters.’

…

‘ I don’t believe the author is giving up completely on the romantic dream. He has made Sansa more cautious, converted her dreams into mere prayers, and has forced her to examine her assumptions, but he’s not turning her into the H0und, who is too pessimistic and fatalistic as a suitor. Sandor’s assertion that all knights are killers makes fantasy so small, it’s eliminated. I think he is setting Sansa on a path where her dreams do die, and her life becomes about as romantic as that smokestack in Cleveland - until they start to come alive again when she travels North to the Wall.’

'That cold, hard reality is still present in the fact that they are brother and sister, but once Jon’s parentage is revealed, this will change. Like an inverted Cinderella (clock striking 12), the reality will become fantasy again. But it’s still inladen with this bitter reality of their relations. So taking this into account, I believe Jon and Sansa could happen because there is no other couple in the series with which GRRM can explore his fascination with fantasy becoming “smaller,” but not completely shrinking altogether. There are no two better characters who represent these ideas, who have the same quietly domestic desires - who do not (at the moment) actively lust for power and cause it to blind them.'

So in essence, Jon and Sansa exist as the subversion of romance. In a twisted, loving sort of way that is morally conflicting to the characters and audiences (for a time). That has existed between the lines, subtly and implicitly. That the audience gives absolutely no thought, because why would they? And if they do, they are abhorred by it - but I’d argue this is the entire point. But not for the reasons you think, not because of the incest - or J0nerys would disgust them.

From the moment he started the series, GRRM has employed incest as a major motif that impacts both the narrative and the characters - the causes the war, that contributes to T@rgaryen values, legacy etc, that propels aspects of narcissism and vitriol for characters like Cersei. It’s really really interesting stuff, as uncomfortable as it is - there are no other works that explore it so messily and beautifully with such nuance.

I believe people seriously underestimate GRRM’s use of omission and subtext. Seriously, just because something is not explicitly stated, doesn’t mean it isn’t there. Unfortunately fans have such a surface level reading of the text, that they are unable to peel back the layers and get to its core. They don’t consider literary influences, or art, or the Romantic movement or anything. They claim they want a complex story that is subversive, yet they cheer for the three-headed dragon theory and all the most predictable plot points that have been absolutely done to death. But then they turn up their noses at anything that goes against the grain, or insinuates otherwise.

R + L = J is a great example of existence within the subtext, yet nobody denies that it is there. No one is called crazy or delusional for it. Ned never thinks of Jon’s true parentage despite harbouring that secret for years, because it is buried deep in his subconscious.

And much to the audience’s surprise (and dismay I'm sure) that is how Jon and Sansa will manifest. This is the human heart in conflict with Jon and Sansa, but not just them - the readers as well. It’s pointing to us, asking us how we’ll possibly handle it. We’re meant to feel this conflict of emotions - anguish and torment and yet hope for something ineffable - just like the characters.

To be able to evoke that as a writer is one of the most impressive feats I can think of - and for the majority of it to exist at this point, in a subconscious limbo? How utterly complex and painful and raw and intelligent but oh so very brilliant. Perhaps one of the most compelling things to come out of this entire series, if only the general audience was open to such discussions. But alas, we must contend with the community we have, and hope for a dream of spring to come upon us.

#jonsa #jon x sansa #meta #anti asoiaf fandom #jonsa meta #long post #lord byron #incest motif #original outline #literary subversion #sansa stark #jon snow

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ineffable-opinions · 5 months

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Seme/uke - long response

A decolonial and subaltern take on three posts on seme/uke dynamics that aims to contextualize them while questioning ethnocentrism. I welcome alternative perspectives, corrections and criticisms.

Post #1: Seme/uke dynamics in Be Loved in House...

@absolutebl responding to @echos-of-ivy

Seme – Uke

About two or more characters in a ship/pairing:

seme 攻め: top (the pitcher) (from origin - attack) also referred to as 左 (left)、タチ (tachi)、トップ (top)

uke 受け: bottom (the catcher) (from origin – receive / accept) also referred to as 右 (right)、ネコ(neko/cat)、ボトム (bottom)

riba リバ: verse (doesn't mind being either a top or a bottom) (from origin - reversible)

seme and uke are sourced from martial arts lingo: seme (martial arts), uke (martial arts) & is related to nanshoku tradition (depictied in ukiyo-e style painting below) of androphilia rather than western norms of queerness. Such differences in culture in queerness is seldom appreciated.

Spring Pastimes. Miyagawa Isshō, c. 1750

Sometimes, androphilic men use seme/uke/riba instead of the following terms which are popular in their queer community:

tachi タチ凸 - top

neko ネコ凹 - bottom

riba リバ回 – verse

Other BL producing countries also have similar terms for seme/uke/riba. And those countries also have terms for top/bottom/verse/side in their queer communities.

For example,

In Chinese BL (danmei), seme/uke/riba -> gong (攻)/shou (受)/hu gong (互攻)[1]

In Chinese tongzhi community -

top: gong (攻) or 1 or 上 or 凸

bottom: shou (受) or 0 or 下 or 凹

verse: bu fen (不分)or 0.5 or 10

side: 不10 or 纯爱[2]

四爱 (fourth love) is the Chinese term for heterosexual relationship wherein the woman tops. When fictionalized, such romances are referred to as GB (girl boy) romance as opposed to BG (boy girl) and the heroine is referred to as female gong 女攻め.

In Thai BL, seme/uke/riba -> me (เมะ)/ ke (เคะ)/ se (เซะ) & their queer community have these terms.

Evolution

When the work does not involve sexual acts, seme/uke/riba is assigned based on speculation (‘what if’) in line with audiences’ preference. There are a bunch of stuff that are employed to determine the dynamics but owing to variation in taste, audience don’t always agree with each other. Since seme/uke/riba archetypes rose to that status with the yaoi (doujin) boom with development of comiket, etc. tanbi, June, original shonen ai and other such types of BL don’t follow these archetypes. Live action which follows, to an extent, the latter tradition, such as Boys Love (2006), also don’t have uke/seme/riba archetypes, instead follows the archetypes that was popularized by tanbi literary movement. Tanbi literary movement was queer in more ways than one. It preceded/birthed BL (Mori Mari) and influenced it.

As no culture is passive recipient [pun intended], different glocalizations of seme/uke/riba dynamics exhibit different features, both within and outside Asia (eg. original English-language BL publication).

IRL

While being top/bottom/verse/side pertains to sexual preference/choices and acts or lack thereof, it is not devoid of other implications. Here are some interplay between these preferences/choices and the implications to consider:

Are these preference/choices innate or socially formed? Or both? Or neither?

What does it mean to be top/bottom/verse/side – within and outside the queer community?

Performance of masculinity, femininity, neither. Which masculinity/femininity? Is that masculinity/femininity performance – marginalized, soft, protest, hegemonic or amalgamated?

How local and global queer cultures influence it?

Is it some kind of conformation/attempt to fit in? If yes, what kind and why?

How are those choices impacted by history (including that of colonialism), legal/political implication (e.g.: pink certificate in Türkiye), local forms of patriarchy & heterosexism, class, nationality, race, skin color, caste, age, employment (including sex work) or lack thereof, physical location & avenues of exploration, abilities and disabilities, access to internet & other infrastructure, education (including sex education), health conditions and access to medical care, etc.

How do they form expectations regarding oneself and others?

While it can be argued that there shouldn’t be any other implication associated with such preference/choices, one can not simply wish them away as it is more often than not linked to certain social realities.

BL as well as gei comi are genres of fiction, telling tales of male androphilia – these are reproductions of imagination entwined with realities, reflecting desires, fantasies and biases plenty.

Conflation

I disagree that uke/seme/riba archetypes are conflated “casually” with bottom/top/verse in narratives and discussions around them. There is a difference that P’AbsoluteBL probably isn’t aware of:

Uke is the bottom in a ship. A character could be uke in a ship, seme or riba in another. For a character to be a ‘bottom’, he has to be sou uke or total/complete uke. It means no matter who he is paired with he will always be the uke.

Alternatively, a sou uke is a character that makes all other characters become seme for him and go after him.

Similarly, a character could be called ‘top’ when that character is a sou seme or total/complete seme. Unless a character is established as a sou seme or sou uke in the narrative, there is always a possibility that those characters are verse. While most BL involves set ships, it is not rare to find characters who are uke in one relationship becoming seme or riba in another. Sometimes, after a time skip, transmigration, reincarnation, etc. BL characters end up switching within a ship.

In Live Action

While there is plenty of riba ships in other BL media, live action has had very few.

These couples were riba in the novel:

Bai Luoyin and Gu Hai – Addicted – The censorship struck right after the couple had their first coitus interfemoris (based on the chronology in the novel).

Lu Feng and Cheng Yichen - A Round Trip to Love

Lan Yu and Chen Handong - Lan Yu

Dom/sub

While the P’AbsoluteBL is allowed to do whatever, I don’t think correlating dom/sub with seme/uke is a good idea in the context of BL because:

BL has a separate speculative fiction subgenre called dom-sub-verse (Dom/Subユニバース) which have its own conventions. It is one of the many subgenres that took inspiration from omegaverse and has grown parallel to it. It takes dominance and submission from the kink community and explores them as innate/biological traits.

It involves characters who are identified as Dom(ドム), Sub(サブ), Switch(スウィッチ), and Usual/Normal/Neutral(ユージュアル/ノーマル/ニュートラル). Along with the standard elements of BDSM in fiction such as safeword, sub space, sub drop and aftercare, it also involves additional elements such as kneel(ニール), glare(グレア) and collar (カラー). There are commands コマンド (命令) that Dom gives to Sub. Sometimes elements borrowed from omegaverse such as heats/ruts, suppressants and professional Dom also appear in this sub-genre.

Dom×Sub ship: Dom is the seme & Sub is the uke.

eg. Hizamazuite Ai Wo Tou 『跪いて愛を問う』 & Rhetoric 『レトリック』 by 山田ノノノ Mijuku Na Boku Ha Shihai Wo Kou 『未��な僕は支配を乞う 1』 by音海ちさ

Sub×Dom ship: Sub is the seme & Dom is the uke.

Jouzu Ni Dekita Ne Watasesan 『上手にできたね、渡瀬さん』 by 野萩あき Shoshinsha Dom Ha Hameraretai 『初心者Domはハメられたい』 by やんちゃ Gohoubi Ni Kubiwa Wo Kudasai (ご褒美に首輪をください) by Naruse Kano

Dom×Switch ship: Dom is the seme & Switch is the uke.

Sono Meirei De Ore Wo Abaite 『その命令で俺を暴いて』 by 小夏うみれ愛の声で暴いて by 泉門くきいでおすわりしてみせて by 由元千子

Switch×Switch ship: One of the switches is the seme and the other the uke.

強情なSwitchの躾け方 by ことぶき

Dom×Dom ship: One of the dom is the seme and the other the uke.

コマンドミー、プリーズ by 町田とまとサディスティックに暴かれたい by 星崎レオ (uke is a Dom, seme’s identity is not made clear) Kyousei Switch 『強制Switch』 by 彩田あまた

Like most BL genres, it is yet to make its way into live-action BL.

There are plenty of BDSM themed BL as well as training (調教) style BL where seme/riba/uke can be switch or sub or dom.

Problematizing the Problem

Hence, the argument that conflation of seme/uke with top/bottom is “a PROBLEM” is ironic. The main reason given for that argument is that “het consumers [would] conflate (egregiously & incorrectly) top with male/masculine and bottom with female/feminine.” Here are some things that I think is relevant to think about that:

Why would ‘het people’ or any people for that matter think in terms of male-female / masculine-feminine binaries? Do they think in those binaries only and not other binaries such as wen(文)-wu(武)? Why think in binaries and dichotomies at all? Don’t they not think in terms of multiplicity of genders/gender expressions such as various kinds of masculinities and femininities) based off on their local contexts?

Do queer people not make such/similar conflations? (Hint: they do.)

Is it a problem? While this seems to be the popular notion, plenty of scholars from across the globe has dismantled it.

What exactly do P’AbsoluteBL think ‘het people’ conflate riba characters with? Feminine-feminine? Masculine-masculine? Neither? Both? Something else?

There are different conceptions of masculinities within a culture which get reflected in cultural goods, including BL, from there. Here are some really old depictions:

Qing dynasty Chinese Water and Land Ritual painting depicting a divine civil official and thunder god in military regalia. [Wen - wu]

Paintings of Padmapani and Vajrapani on either side of the Buddha, from cave 1 of the Ajanta Caves.

Moreover, if the problem is hinging on a particular understanding of seme/uke: the one in which seme is not feminine or uke is not masculine enough. If latter is the issue, it can be fixed by sticking to BL media with otokomae uke or macho uke. If former is the issue, there’s more than enough works with maiden seme and josou seme. If one is yet to encounter any such works, one is not looking far enough.

Masculinities in BL

Here are three central characters from Finder series embodies different types of masculinities – a lot of it is presentation, physical attributes, age, power and social standing. Akihito is a young and vivacious uke who happens to be short and sinewy. Asami Ryuichi is a supadari seme: a guy who is tall, well educated, high earning, with good looks. In addition, he cooks and cleans and cares when he wants to. Fei Long is tall, beautiful and cunning and can be regarded as a riba character. But can any of these characters considered not masculine by regular standards? Isn’t Akihito masculine enough for his age? And if we are to compare Asami, we are sure to find him lacking but then give him time to grow. They have a dozen years between them. Moreover, can average men stand comparison with a super darling? But then in the grand setup of patriarchy, isn’t power concentrated in the hands of the older men who dominates even the super darlings, both in real world and fictional ones.

Ayase Yukiya & Kanou Somuku from No Money

Consider the case of Ayase, would you call him a “feminine” uke? Probably yes. He is small in stature - petite and cute. He is definitely very small in comparison to his seme Kanou. They probably have one of the most exaggerated size differences and an extreme case of the traditional pairing.

The traditional pairing comes from the customary practice of androphilia in pre-modern Japan. It involves relationship between a wakashu and a nenja or from the tradition of nanshoku. The former is not considered a man by the period’s standards and is considered a third gender by some scholars. The latter is considered as a mentor and lover for the former. While the traditional faded with ‘modernization’, tanbi literary movement (among others) kept alive remnants of it through the writings of the likes of Yukio Mishima.

Note that the youth on the left is wearing a kimono whose style (furisode) and color was considered appropriate for adolescents of both sexes but not adult men, which along with the partially shaved pate denotes the boy's wakashū age status while the exposed bare feet indicates the purely sexual demeanor.

The traditional pairing has clearly inspired Japanese mangaka both BL artists and others. Look at the wakashu in customary androgynous clothing, younger, fairer and even smaller than the nenja, with relatively less experience being embraced by nenja who is in customary male clothing.

Check out more shunga about nanshoku to see visual ancestor of “yaoi”. The visual legacy continued with the likes of Go Mishima. The queers did it first.

From the series "Mishima Go Book of Young Man" - Japan - 1972 (Showa 47)

Ayase in No Money fits into the wakashu ideal. Moreover, the creators of this manga explicitly differentiated between feminine uke with wakashu uke by juxtaposing Ayase with Someya who embodies traditional femininity.

Someya and Honda from Henshin Dekinai

Putting it into perspective, it is noticeable that many a BL involves similar pairing. A lot of criticism BL faces is when it sticks to nanshoku dynamics. Interestingly, critics who can’t imagine genders beyond masculine and feminine, fail to tell apart “feminine” characteristics from wakashu characteristics. But there is no dearth of such dynamics getting subverted in numerous ways in BL:

ship with younger, lower class, petite, androgynous or any combination of customary wakashu characteristics in seme/riba.

ship with all parties being of similar age, class, physical attributes, experience, etc.

Emancipation

Shouldn’t typical uke archetype be seen as an example of subversion of the main character masculinity that dominates media landscape? Shouldn’t they be exalted for being what they are? Uke archetype that allows all genders to project onto and gain pleasure from, is that any less than a marvel in itself?

Pursuer & Pursued

In order to analyses if there is a shift in seme-uke dynamic, the P’AbsoluteBL employs the following to categories who is active:

who is pursuing whom

who makes the first call in terms of declarations and physical touch

who seems to be more in charge of the relationship

In BL, these are never reserved for seme/uke/riba. Who takes on which role depends on the narrative. BL rarely have fixed pursuer-pursued. All parties involved in a ship take on active role in different circumstances.

Take, for example, the original edition of Ossan’s Love, Hasegawa Yukiya employs certain indirect tactics to pursuing Soichi Haruta such as cooking, cleaning and caring for him. (These are tasks that seme/riba/uke usually engage in lighter BLs to gain and retain the attention/affection of the one they are pursuing.) Hasegawa also engages in activities they do together as a means to grow closer. Once he learns of his love rival, he switches up the tactic. He pursues more directly and aggressively. Soichi rejects him. He withdraws and returns to the original tactic but without attempts to grow closer. Soichi feels the loss and tries to get close to Hasegawa but is brushed off. He does not back down. Instead, he takes on a more aggressive route of pursuit - making amends and chasing after Hasegawa.

What P’AbsoluteBL implies with “I think BLIHID’s main couple has a REALLY weak seme/uke dynamic from the get go” is made abundantly clear in with “ShiLei does a lot of active pursuit, also he’s very self actualized.” Here, using pursuer/pursued would have sufficed. Instead, P’AbsoluteBL chose to disappropriate established terms ‘seme/uke’ and imbibed them with implications of “active pursuit” as well as “self-actualization” [regarding queer identity] that seme/uke/riba doesn’t carry originally. Most of it based on biases built on equating all BL to one type of BL: the one with traditional pairing that follows royal road progression.

What P’AbsoluteBL actively avoids discussing is that Beloved in House is basically following the super popular ‘domineering president’ plot based on a BG romance.

Live Action Struggles

P’AbsoluteBL mentions an imagined ‘struggles around seme/uke’ in live-action BL. I think the actual issue plaguing live action BL is the struggle to balance business and other interests while being able to do justice to the diversity within BL as a media genre.

source: (chil-chil.net)

In the chart:

ほのぼの – heartwarming – Example: Restart After Come Back Home

コメディ – comedy – Cherry Magic

ダーク – dark – Sing in Love

シリアス – serious – Cornered Mouse Dream of Cheese

キュン – exciting (kyun) – Mr. Unlucky Has No Choice but to Kiss

Japan has trouble in diversifying its live-action in terms of sub-genres and treatment/mood. Even Thailand, despite the amount it produces have trouble offering variety. Riba couple, maiden seme, yarachin characters, yandere X yandere ship, etc. are either very rare or non-existent in live action BL. Moreover, live action BL is seldom explicit and are mostly in the speculative territory with seme/uke/riba dynamics, making it all the harder to diversify.

Tbh, what fascinated me the most is the “I kind of automatically cringed” part of the question. I would love to know what brought about that reaction. I am sure that it would help shed some light on discourse surrounding BL in general.

Post #2: Blushing Maiden Trope & Seme/Uke

Discussion (intended and in italics) between an anon, @heretherebedork & P’AbsoluteBL on actions and reactions during physical relationships.

The discussion centers around “the character placed into the stereotypically feminine role” being repulsed/reluctant/hesitant when it comes to physical relationships. It is directly attributed to “purity culture in BLs”.

BL have a complicated relationship with “purity” or being “clean”. Tanbi roots of BL hinged on sexuality and obsession with beauty to the point of decadence. Shonen ai (original meaning) works also had characters who are usually promiscuous for one reason or the other, never forming very deep relationship (at least not enough to stick to monogamous unions for long) yet endlessly entangled with other characters, often baffling non-queer characters in those works.

from Song of the Wind and Trees

[Inviting readers to hazard a guess: who is the seme and who is the uke. Answer at the end of this post.]

But how explicit the depiction of physical relationships has varied in BL with time and space. Japanese BL with the self-published BL (aniparo / yaoi – original meaning) boom saw very explicit depictions side by side with the commercial BL which have barely any explicit content or those which take a closed-door approach. Now Japanese BL have a wide range in terms of explicit content and have grown to incorporate elements from other genres including gei comi. Korean BL is similarly doing well. It is not uncommon to have chapters or parts of chapter in manhwa and novels dedicated to the celebration of physical relationships. Thai BL also have no dearth of explicit content, especially in web publishing. Chinese BL in its early days had lots of explicit content, especially in self-publishing. But as censors started taking notice and cracking down, authors and platforms clamped down. Most BL were purged of any & all explicit content. Some of it migrated to Taiwanese platforms, AO3 & other foreign hosts. Now all danmei published is “pure love” devoid of even allusion to depiction of any physical relationship beyond above neck action.

When it comes to BL live action, things are a little different. In Japan and to an extend abroad, there has always been overlap between audience of BL and audience of Japanese GVs and pink eiga. Moreover, early live-action Japanese BL was probably aimed exclusively at hardcore BL fans. They were way more explicit on average and did not always involve physical relationship between the main ship. Same seems true about early live-action Chinese BL. A Round Trip to Love Part 2 (2016) even had bondage and SM scenes which wasn’t there in the novel; but then it didn’t have the hard-earned happy ending the novel had either. But now, even dangai with “socialist brotherhood” (社会主义兄弟情) can’t be aired. Meanwhile, Japan’s average BL today lacks much explicit content. This isn’t to say that it doesn’t drop an occasional Sei no Gekiyaku (2020) once in a blue moon. Here are my speculations to why more of those doesn’t get made.

There is another reason for “purity culture” in BL.

Sathaporn Panichraksapong, an MD of GMMTV, a major producer of BL series, claimed that audience members who are mainly heterosexual women look for romantic relationships among the characters rather than sexual relationships.

We know that our audience are [sic] women. Women want to see only two boys having romantic moments together. They don't want to see sex. Sexual relationships in BL are for a gay audience. That's why in SOTUS the Series we have only two kissing scenes. With only these, audiences were already screaming. This is enough for them. (Interview with Sathaporn, GMMTV, 10 Aug. 2017)

Jirattikorn, Amporn. "Heterosexual Reading vs. Queering Thai Boys' Love Dramas among Chinese and Filipino Audiences." (2023).

As Jirattikorn goes on to highlight, this [wrong] perception about the audience (“women”) have changed ever since.

While early BL series tend to portray pure love without showing many sexual relationships, later BL series started to show more sex scenes between the two male lead characters.

Jirattikorn (2023)

“It’s always the character being pursued, who is typically in his first relationship, who Never Thinks Of Sex. They’re often very sweet and innocent and wide-eyed.”

While heretherebedork attributes it to “purity culture”, it can be argued that this has to do with what audience wanted:

I like the way they portray love in Thai BL. It is a kind of puppy love. BL of other nations, like Chinese BL, are darker. In Thai BL, two male characters often start off friends, then develop feelings for each other. It is very light, very sweet. (Krissy, f, 27, Philippines)

Jirattikorn (2023)

and what media houses thought they wanted, as evidenced by Jirattikorn’s interviews with BL fans. This is not to dismiss struggles with purity culture which is often a very slow part of decolonialization.

P’AbsoluteBL goes further to the argument that “purity” is associated with seme/uke dynamics in BL and maps it to typical het pairing (BG):

The stronger the seme/uke dynamic (the more heterosexually dysmorphic and less actually gay) the more likely this trope will manifest. Simply put: the man (because he is hooah a MANLY MAN DUDE) wants sex but the woman (delicate pure flower of cleanliness and joy) does not. And if she does want it she is a DIRTY, worthless, whore - so she MUST protest sex (GASP) at every single turn. (Seme is acting the male and uke the female in these kinds of narratives.) *please sense my sarcasm dumb interwebs, mm’kay?*

It’s true that the argument seems persuasive but is it right? Probably not. Seme, uke and riba characters can be divided into strong/weak categories based on their characterization - with the strong ones being those who pursue, take initiative, most likely to initiate intimacy at least for their first time, etc. and weak ones being those at the receiving end of pursuits and initiatives. Pairing a strong one with a weak one is probably more traditional –

strong riba x weak riba like in Addicted (at least before time skip)

strong seme x weak uke like in Old Fashioned Cupcake

weak seme x strong uke like in Saezurutori Wa Habatakanai (at least before time skip; pavam Doumeki)

compared to those with both parties being strong (which leads to delectable friction and sparks flying when done right) or both being weak (which leads to audience wondering: will either of them do something? No? Very well!).

BL’s sex negativity

Seme gets overwhelmed by his lust for uke, acts aggressively and has to be shut down or warned off.

Not only seme, uke and riba characters does this too. P’AbsoluteBL attributes “getting overwhelmed by lust” and “acting aggressively” to seme when it can be attributed to both uke (襲い受け) and riba as well. Other than acting aggressively, characters may employ seduction (eg. Xia Shang Zhou in You Are Mine (2023) - tried and failed & Charlie in Pit Babe (2023) - successful) and/or manipulation (Color Recipe by Harada).

Seme won’t take no for an answer because his needs are too great and his needs take precedence (he’s “the man” after all) and the uke is just TOO CUTE how could anyone resist? (After all the seme is only gay for this one guy because he is so cute. Everything, therefor, is the uke and his cutenesses’ fault.)

Moreover, P’AbsoluteBL is probably not aware of kawai seme who employ their cuteness to get uke to lower the guard and to seduce. Cuteness is clearly not a uke prerogative.

Like the sailor-costume wearing seme on the cover, cuteness is sometimes invoked through conventionally women’s clothing, cosplaying (maid, sailor, nurse), etc.

If the seme makes the choice to have sex for the uke, then the uke is not at fault and is still technically innocent. Only if an uke wants it, is he actually impure (or actually gay). In H4 when they both comfort and sex shame the bottom after the rape sequence, this is the narrative’s mentality. (A man who does not want sex is assumed to be able to fight another man off.) Oh and ALSO, the seme must read the uke’s mind and know what the uke really wants.

I don’t even know what went into this argument. There is an entire subgenre: 調教 BL (training / conditioning) that is focused on pleasure training. If a character (seme/uke/riba) wants sex in a narrative, it usually only means that their partner is on the right track. Moreover, when a character wants, actively seeks and are denied intimacy for manipulation reasons, then their partner is made out to be cruel (either 鬼畜 or ゲス・クズ).

In other words, if the uke is interested in sex, he’s made impure by this interest. Sex of any kind is an act of desperation and indicates lack of control and therefor diminishes both parties but particularly the uke, therefor the uke shouldn’t have to take responsibility of wanting sex, so the decision must be made by the seme for both of them. He is being a “good seme” by doing this. The uke, therefore MUST appear reluctant to have sex, or he is not a good/pure/virtuous person.

Honestly, I haven’t come across BL which gives off this kind of message. However, two-faced scummy characters (seme/uke/riba) get to employ hypocrisy, which includes slut-shaming, to humiliate characters they are shipped with but then such narratives are built to illicit hatred (for scummy characters) and angst and often punished with:

(a) unhappy ending for the couple

(b) breaking up of the ship

(d) switching within ship – uke turns into riba/seme or seme turns into riba/uke – or shift in power dynamics (rich character becomes relatively poorer, junior from school becomes senior/superior in workplace).

A lot of readers find such dramatic plots satisfying and hence it is a successful subgenre.

Can you guess the seme in these 20 BL manga? Try this quiz on renta.

Post #3: How do they determine who will be archetype seme/uke?

Discussion regarding seme/uke determination in BL: @elynn0723 & P'AbsoluteBL (intended and in italics).

I think your confusion is partly nested in the fact that seme/uke is not about who fucks who, not really. Certainly not anymore. Seme/uke are narrative archetypes not physical acts.

Disappropritation. Discussed above.

I should say for the record that personality is NOT sexual preference.

P’AbsoluteBL goes onto give examples (all of which are fictionalized in different genres – GB, BL, etc.) but probably due to being limited by lack of exposure, goes onto ask, “How weird that anyone would think queers do this.” Queers do this. If one is willing to look beyond LGBTQIA+ form of queerness (which is born and brought up in America), one can see queer possibilities. For example, Kothi-Panthi queerness in India/South Asia. It is probably a good idea to pay attention to it when generalizing queerness given how big India/South Asia’s (queer) population is. There are very many similar forms of queerness in other parts of Global South. In many cultures, sexuality doesn’t inform identity but sexual preference does.

[ Aside: Kothi-Panthi model of queerness

This model doesn’t work for whole of India – region (India is so big and heavily populated - different sexual cultures and practices); linguistics (different terms in different region, same terms different meanings in different region, decline of Farsi (used in queer spaces in Delhi) and other queer argot/cant and their replacement with American English internet slang); class & caste (LGBTQIA+ being self-identification of mostly urban/rurban, upper class, English educated v/self- identification common among the sex workers, working class and other lower classes in rural as well as urban spaces who are excluded from consumerist queerness);

NGOfication of queer movement & action; global queering and neoliberal take over leading to americanization –– intermixing & “gay” (and other terms) being used differently by different classes.]

How do they determine who will be archetype seme/uke?

P’AbsoluteBL points to narrative roles - who is “after” the relationship more, and then goes onto claim “the heroine is the main character, the love interest is her love interest. It’s decided for them because it’s a romance novel.” I don’t know if this helps explaining either seme/uke/riba archetypes in BL or pursued/pursuer. Aren’t there romances where hero pursues heroine and the other way around? Aren’t there romances where both party pursue each other?

Even if we assume that androphilic female audience is projecting the sexual mores & expectations imposed on them onto male characters, then by the very act aren’t they subverting those expectations.

How do they determine who tops?

P’AbsoluteBL provides the following schema:

seme = active pursuer

since active pursuer is “the male role”

he should do the penetrating

which has to be done

P’AbsoluteBL also gives a term for this association: heterosexual dysmorphia - "the idea that any couple must fit into predetermined binary gender roles". This is probably coming from a place of ignorance since the example given is confined to musings about sexism concerning the upper class in Global North. Also, at least in the ambit of Kothi-Panthi sexuality, fitting into masculine top-feminine bottom dynamic doesn’t place them into any predetermined binary gender roles. Instead, it only places them in the fluid space of multi-genders: can/are seamlessly float(ing) between being kinnar/hijra/ali and being “cis-men”.

If one is to ask the question: “Which one of you is The Girl?” to a kothi-panthi couple, the kothi would tell you without hesitation: “I am The Girl.” Might even asked you in turn, “Couldn’t you tell?”

Kothi [is the word used by] effeminate men who desire to be penetrated by "real" men whom they call ‘panthi’.

Queer Movements by Paromita Chakravarti & Aniruddha Dutta

Seme/uke/riba archetypes are imbibed with different traits and different spin on personalities that a seasoned BL sommelier might be able to spot easily but would confuse those who are less familiar with all that the genre has to offer. The following excerpt from an analysis by @ranchthoughts reflects the most popular idea about seme/uke dynamics.

Most BL shows can be read through a lens of seme/uke dynamics, which originated in yaoi. The seme is the “pursuer” character and the uke is the “pursued”. There are certain physical (height, skin colour, etc.), social (age, wealth, social capital, etc.), and personality (active vs. passive, extroverted vs. introverted, flirtier vs. shyer) markers which are typically associated with either the seme or the uke. For example, semes tend to be taller, wealthier, older, flirtier, tanner, more active, and have a higher social status, while ukes tend to be shorter, poorer, younger, shyer, paler, and have a lower social status. “Seme” and “uke” roles are also sometimes conflated with masculinity and femininity (semes are “masculine” and ukes are “feminine”) and sexual preferences (semes are dominant and tops and ukes are submissive and bottoms). There are also tropes associated with either the seme or the uke, like ukes typically give cheek kisses and semes forehead kisses. Thus, things like height, age, wealth, personality, presumed sexual preference, and the role they take in tropes can index the character’s status as a seme or a uke, and in turn the character’s identity as a seme or uke in the narrative (pursuer vs. pursued) indexes a character’s personality, sexual preferences, etc., however unrealistic and simplistic that is in real life. In a BL, we would expect the seme (pursuer) and uke (pursued) characters to exhibit most, if not all, of the associated seme or uke traits and roles in tropes, though this is not always true (and some BLs have little to no seme/uke dynamics at all).

There are two interesting things about such an understanding of seme/uke dynamics:

It closely resembles nenja/wakashu dynamics (and its cousins) in the customary and mostly age-stratified androphilia in pre-modern Japan.

Live action BL, at least the ones that were current and popular, stuck mainly to a single type of dynamic: pairing of one seme of a particular kind (スパダリ – super darling) with one uke of a particular kind (ヘタレ – milquetoast). There are barely any riba couple. It is painting picture of BL in monochromes. So much so that Bad Buddy and My School President were seen as some path breaking feat and a break away from “yaoi” tropes by live action audience, rather than seeing them having just another (or less familiar) set of yaoi / BL tropes.

What P’AbsoluteBL identifies as “heterosexual dysmorphia” in “yaoi” is basically what BL inherited from Japan’s pre-modern androphilia including “femininity” in uke from chiago, wakashu and androgynous Kabuki actors and (hyper)masculinity in seme from nenja and others who enacted “the male role”. BL did not passively receive any of these. And for moe, artists and audience alike, subverted it all.

This is true for all tropes that are attributed to seme/uke.

Height difference – Earliest BLs had petite bishonen pairings. Yaoi introduced height differences – all of them: tall seme x short uke short seme x tall uke (this is probably the most sexualized height difference) tall seme x tall uke (with little to no difference) both/all short riba CP/ship both/all tall riba CP/ship tall riba x short riba short riba x tall riba

Cuteness – Used to establish how irresistible a character (seme/uke/riba) is irrespective of their attitudes and behavior are. Oft part of seme’s seduction tactic, especially when uke has a weakness for cute things. Even when cuteness is not one of the seme’s attributes, it is invoked either actively by serving kawai in speech or through actions including cosplay; or passively like in the following example where a typical super darling seme, Asami Ryuichi from Finder unintentionally triggers moe in Takaba Akihito (his uke) by cuddling a baby.

Uke’s cuteness is exploited to establish a sou uke (an uke every other character turns seme for) or subvert the same like in No Money where one of the epitomes of bishonen cuteness, Ayase (uke), who manages to enthrall others however isn’t a sou uke as one might expect and thus subverts the wakashu trope. Moreover, Kanou (seme) wasn’t initially drawn to Ayase due to his cuteness but due to Ayase’s kindness that lifted him out of the abyss of despair, when Kanou was at his weakest.

3. Bulk – BL have main characters (seme/uke/riba) with varying bulk and body types. There is far less diversity when it comes to Live Action BL.

4. Blushing maiden/virginal innocent trope – applies to all sorts of BL characters.

Edit: Conclusion

1. Surprisingly, ethnocentrism and loud echo of colonial masculinity in particular seem to permeate the discourse surrounding BL.

2. I really wish live action BL would have as much diversity as other BL media. Why is it so slow to diversify? Is it because of business interests? Is sticking to super darling X milquetoast pairing with royal road progression a sensible business decision? Or is sexism promoting wrong impressions of what audience want?

3. How come the Japanese terms "seme" & "uke" are used a lot but not "riba"? Where did live action BL audience learn these terms?

***

Yaoi = [how P'AbsoluteBL uses it] synonym for ボーイズラブ (boys love) manga.

= [popular use in anglophone BL manga fandom] BL manga with explicit content; as opposed to shonen ai.

= [original meaning] derivative works, which were mostly plot-what-plot type, that are self-published (doujinshi)

Answer to a question posted above: Gilbert Cocteau – uke in Song of the Wind and Trees

Below is the seme: Serge Battour

from Song of the Wind and Trees

Earliest BL manga had very pretty seme/uke/riba characters (if we are to call them so) and were not too preoccupied with "manliness" or a single type of "masculinity". But, they were surely obsessed with bishonen.

[1] 互攻 is also used to indicate POV switching between gong and shou in fiction.

[2] 纯爱 is also used to indicates asexual androphilia.

CP/pairing - involves 2 characters. Ship - involves 2 or more characters.

Inviting @waitmyturtles and @lurkingshan to share your thoughts if any (since I have noticed you guys use the terms "seme" & "uke" as well). Hope you guys don't mind the mention.

#japanese bl #boys love #bl history #thai bl #chinese bl #danmei #bl trivia #bl tropes #seme/uke #seme #uke #riba #korean bl #taiwanese bl

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burningvelvet · 5 months

Text

on percy shelley & human connection & coping through art

to set the mood of this post i must say i'm writing it really quickly on my phone over a bowl of pasta with bread & broccoli & some orange flavored sparkling water & im still dressed in my outdoor wintery clothes (all black, knee boots, wool, silver chains & rings, although i mostly prefer gold jewelry).

so anyway today i've been kind of sad over ppl not replying to my texts & my usual reaction is to say "ok, guess i'll kms, wah wah, cry cry" but this sort of passively cynical joking schtick has gotten old & i would rather occupy myself some other way instead of moping about failed connections or the difficulty of initiating contact with anyone or the struggles of modern socialization as a whole.

instead, i will read the works of percy shelley tonight, and think about how he struggled with all of this over 200 yrs ago. of how hard he struggled to make leigh hunt and lord byron collaborate with him on their journal the liberal, and how he struggled all his life to build a positive community even in spite of years of bullying, ostracization, and family strife - he often felt like giving up, and like human connection was impossible, but he never gave in to apathy and instead he continuously curated his ideal life by seeking out other like-minded people, even when he occasionally embarrassed himself in public or when others were decidely averse to him or lukewarm in their reception. john keats didn't entirely take to him when they met and some of keats' friends straight-up disliked percy for being weird, but percy (though scarcely knowing him) loved keats as a brother-poet nonetheless, was generous to him, wrote one of his masterpieces in his favor, and died with a copy of his poems in his pocket.

percy always reached out to others and was a loyal friend even when others disrespected him or ignored him or just simply didnt love him as much as he did them. his letters to lord byron show how reverent he was to his friend, and how his affection was never returned in quite the same gusto, but, while still trying to keep his self-respect, percy quelled his frustrations and continued his correspondence with byron regardless. percy acted as the mediator between byron and claire even when his stress was so high it weighed heavily on his health. he actively tried to choose to be positive even when the people around him were negative or miserable. like most writers back then, he sent his writing to his idols, and sought mentorship from people he admired, like william godwin and leigh hunt, and he continued to respect them even when they took advantage of him financially (moreso in godwin's case).

anyway what i mean to say is that whenever im feeling lonely or rejected or alienated or socially stupid or am just second-guessing my role in society or whatever whatever whatever, i cling to creativity/art/literature/etc. even harder than i regularly do, because thats what it exists for.

i knew a therapist (not one i saw as a patient, but someone i knew through mutual interests in media/the arts) who said that a certain musical performance we both loved probably saved way more lives than any single therapist ever has. - the performance in question was david bowie's tokyo 1990 live recording of rock n roll suicide, an anti-suicide song (its available on youtube, go watch it lol, he performs it with so much conviction).

any way even though at the end of his life shelley sometimes felt like he was failing to achieve his dream of building a utopian art commune - he actually did succeed in introducing several people to each other in ways that changed peoples lives. his friends jane williams and thomas jefferson hogg got married only through his mutual friendship. whole literary societies have been started in his honor - to this day there are conferences & whatnot that meet annually - his life & writing continues to inspire people and bring them comfort - & he would be extremely proud of that - any artist would. the main goal of any famous dead writer is basically to become the imaginary friend of their future readers & he accomplished that - even though all the time he was wracked with doubt/depression/suicidality/illness/chronic pain, etc. - as a political/philosophical radical, he realized that having hope is one of the most influential & radical things one can do - & i'm glad that, even though this is a person who died over 200 yrs ago, there is at least one person who really resonates with me - even though we're from different centuries, different continents, different sexes, etc. - it's helpful to have positive influences to look up to, especially when they've also struggled in similar ways as you. and although shelley was pretty privileged (rich englishman) he really did struggle a lot mentally & physically - his life was a chaotic mess - and he wasn't perfect at all - but i think he's still inspirational for my previously mentioned reasons - his ceaseless hope. the last poem he was working on was titled the triumph of life, even though he wrote it during a deep depression. the last poem he published in his lifetime was hellas, which he hoped would raise money for the cause of greek war of independence. from the poem:

"Life may change, but it may fly not;

Hope may vanish, but can die not;

Truth be veiled, but still it burneth;

Love repulsed, — but it returneth!"

#percy bysshe shelley #percy shelley #me #?#ramblings #my writing #art #literature #socializing #thoughts #hopepunk #that was shelley #tw suicide mention #opinions #essays #poetry #social anxiety

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eyesaremosaics · 7 months

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When Dora Maar died on 16 July 1997 at the age of 89, few people seemed to notice. It took the French newspaper Le Monde – in her home country – 10 days to publish anything. And when journalists did cotton on, they didn’t seem to think Maar was the story. The New York Times called her “a muse of Picasso” and the “principal model for many of his so-called weeping women portraits in the late 30s and early 40s”. The Independent, while admitting that Maar had been an artist in her own right, suggested that she would nonetheless be “remembered as the most poignant of Pablo Picasso’s mistresses”.

Forget that she’d also been a major surrealist photographer, one of the few women in that circle, and that she was still painting into her 80s. For critics, she was Picasso’s Weeping Woman – the eternally spurned mistress and muse. Maar herself bitterly resented being regarded as a sort of art-world Miss Havisham, the subject of someone else’s picture. “All [Picasso’s] portraits of me are lies,” she once said. “Not one is Dora Maar.”

Not before time, the Weeping Woman is having the last laugh. After a spell at the Pompidou in Paris, a major retrospective is heading to London’s Tate Modern then Los Angeles. The largest exhibition of its kind yet staged, it features nearly 300 objects: photographs, photomontages, advertising mock-ups, self-portraits, watercolours, oil landscapes and still lives. Few of these objects have been exhibited before, and certainly not on this scale. The sense is of a curtain being pulled back. Forget those Picasso portraits: here is how Dora Maar actually wanted to be seen.

Born Henriette Théodora Markovitch in Paris in 1907, to a French mother who owned a fashion boutique and a father who was a Croatian architect, her upbringing was multicultural. The family relocated to Buenos Aires when she was three, and she spent her childhood shuttling between Europe and South America, taking her first photographs on the sea journeys between. She trained as a painter in Paris, but found herself drawn to photography in the 1920s, becoming friendly with Henri Cartier-Bresson and Brassaï.

“She was very ambitious,” says her biographer, Victoria Combalia. “She wasn’t sure which direction she was going in, but she had such energy.”

In 1936 she met Picasso, and seems to have decided that the painter, nearly 30 years older, was her next project. The story of the encounter that turned them into lovers has been much mythologised. Legend has it that Maar sat in the famous literary watering hole, the Cafe les Deux Magots, playing a game where she stabbed a knife between her fingers to excite Picasso’s attention.

Whatever the truth, Combalia suggests that the striking thing is the way it suggests that she, not he, was in charge. “She wanted to seduce him, I’m sure. The whole scene with the knife is like a sadistic joke, almost a performance.”

Yet the balance soon tipped the other way. Picasso was also having a long-running affair with Marie-Thérèse Walter, which he refused to break off. He seems to have taken a perverse thrill in making Walter and Maar compete for his affections, describing a story where they came to blows in his studio as “one of my choicest memories”. Having initially painted Maar as a nymph or a bird, his portraits begin to show her in tears, notably the excruciating Weeping Woman (1937), now in Tate’s permanent collection, in which she seems to dissolve before our eyes.

Maar’s own artistic response is similarly hard to look at, though in quite different ways. A painting of hers from the same year, The Conversation, shows her and Walter sitting next to each other, almost in mirror image. Walter looks out, passive and inscrutable; Maar has her back to us, face hidden.

Yet while the relationship was emotionally punishing, it was productive. 1937 was also the year that Picasso painted Guernica, and Maar – as well as teaching him darkroom techniques – agreed to photograph the process of its creation. Indeed, it seems likely that his decision to depict that particular atrocity came from Maar, who was far more politically engaged. Not only does its style – severe black-and-white, almost photographic in its pitiless detail – borrow from her work, she actually painted a small section of it.

“He trusted her,” says Tate Modern director Frances Morris, who interviewed Maar when the latter was in her 80s. “As much as being a sexual or emotional relationship, it was a collaborative one.”

When their relationship finally fell apart in 1945, Maar was devastated and suffered a brief breakdown, intensified by the death of her mother. The guilt-stricken Picasso helped her buy a house in Provence, where she spent an increasing amount of her time. Catholicism began to occupy her life; rumours circulated – fanned by her former partner – that she’d gone mad, or become a recluse.

The truth is different, Combalia says: Maar kept making art, producing textile designs and devoted more time to painting. She also travelled, and continued to exhibit through the 50s and 60s. It’s also not true that she abandoned photography, as some claim. Though she made fewer photographs after the break with Picasso, she continued to experiment, crafting a late series of photograms (photographic prints made without a camera) in the 80s, as if reconnecting with her younger artistic self.

Maar never regained the profile she had experienced in her 20s, yet it’s wrong to say she disappeared. It was a slow withdrawal, and came about largely because Maar wanted to focus on her art. “In letters she writes, ‘Well, I don’t want to be social, I want to do my own thing. I have to paint,’” says Combalia

Morris, who visited Maar at her apartment in Paris in 1990, agrees. “It was an artist’s home. Every surface, every wall, spoke of that. There were easels and lots of canvases in her studio, covered in polythene. She was still working.”

What was Maar like to meet? Morris laughs: “When she answered the door, I thought at first it was the maid, this little old woman.” But she was soon struck by Maar’s forcefulness. “She was terrifically strong, you could see that. I think that’s what it was, in a way: making art was more important to her than how she was perceived.”

“She was very curious about the world,” Combalia adds. “She was always asking me what I was doing in Paris, what the name of my boyfriend at the time was. She loved gossip.”

Despite Maar’s talents being overlooked during her lifetime, Combalia believes we should be grateful that we can see so much work, and that so much of it is so good. “She really deserves to be known. We owe her that justice.”

#dora maar #pablo picasso #surrealism #1930s #1940s

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lucienarcheron · 1 year

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Bouquet Full of Loathing [ Elucien ]

Inspired by: this and the Flower Shop Modern AU - Person A owns a flower shop and person B comes storming in one day, slaps 20 bucks on the counter and says “How do I passive-aggressively say fuck you in flower?” | Originally posted on my previous blog on 10.01.2017.

Pairing: Lucien x Elain Genre: Fluff/Humor Rating: SFW Recommended listen: McFly - Love is Easy

Author’s note: This was my first ever acotar fic and will always hold a special place in my heart!

*slam*

“How do I passive-aggressively say fuck you to someone in flower?”

Lucien was furious. He was fuming. He was positive that if was possible, he’d actually be on fire. It was too fucken early for him to be going back and forth with his coworker but that bitch loved to undermine him and continuously make his life hell at work.

Due to his outburst after their latest argument, his manager, who also happened to be that demon’s manager, was forcing him to make amends by buying her a nice bouquet of flowers to say he was sorry. Which he wasn’t. Not even in the slightest. But oh, she was going to get that bouquet of flowers.

The Fawn’s Greenhouse was only a few blocks away and taking a walk gave him a way to release some of his anger. But what he didn’t expect was to find a beautiful young woman behind the counter, staring at him like he was crazy. Then again, who walks into a flower shop and demands those kinds of flowers?

His eyes went to the nametag on the front of her dress and he felt his face go red.

Elain. Such a pretty name for such a pretty girl.

Elain, on the other hand, was slightly taken aback.

She loved her flowers. She loved any flowers.

She loved growing things in her garden and every single part of the process mattered to her; planting the seeds, watering them, monitoring their growth, and finally when they blossomed. Her flowers were her babies.

When Feyre and Nesta offered to pitch in and help her open her own flower shop, she was over the moon. Her own savings had fallen a little short and she was thrilled to have the support from her sisters. The Fawn’s Greenhouse was only a few blocks away from where Nesta worked as an editor at a literary agency and a few extra blocks from where Feyre taught Art at the local community college.

It was a great way for the three of them to meet for lunch or dinner quite often, as they would be tonight.

But to Elain, flowers meant many good things: happiness, gratefulness, new beginnings, apologies, and forgiveness. So when this strange angry red-headed man stormed into her shop and slammed money on the counter, growling at her, she was very taken aback at his request.

Elain finally blinked rapidly then chuckled. “Well, hello.” she said and leaned against the counter. “There are a few different ways to do that, Mr…?”

All the anger that Lucien had walked in with completely vanished and was replaced with awe as he took in her features. Gods, she was gorgeous.

Elain tilted her head to the side and Lucien almost combusted as she gave him an encouraging smile and he cleared his throat.

“Lucien.” he mumbled, a hand rubbing the back of his neck, the color on his cheeks matching his hair. “My name is Lucien.”

“Welcome to my flower shop, Mr. Lucien.” she replied automatically and gave him an even wider smile. “I see someone’s ruffled your feathers this morning.”

Lucien snorted, causing Elain to giggle. “Ruffled my feathers. More like plucked all my feathers to death that psychotic bit —” he cut himself off as Elain gave him an amused look. “I’m sorry. Let me start over.”

Elain watched, trying to hold back a laugh as Lucien took a deep breath and ran a hand through his hair. He smiled at her and she smiled back.

“Hello.”

“Yes, hello.”

“You have a very lovely flower shop.”

“Thank you! I’ve worked very hard on it.”

“You are also very lovely as well.”

“You aren’t so bad yourself.”

“You could tell me I looked like a piece of filth and I would honestly take it as the highest of compliments.”

Elain burst out laughing at that and Lucien grinned. Score for him.

“Well, that wouldn’t be very nice to say to anyone.” Elain replied, shaking her head with another chuckle. “Besides, it wouldn’t be true. You’re quite lovely yourself.”

Lucien leaned against the counter, the gap between them growing smaller. “I have never felt so lovely in my entire life.” he said, and with an exaggerated flick of his wrist, tossed his hair over his shoulder.

Elain laughed again and Lucien realized he’d only been in the shop for five minutes but he’d sell his soul to hear that sound over and over again.

“You have quite the humor, Mr. Lucien.”

“Lucien. Just...Lucien.” he corrected her gently with a smile. “Mister sounds too formal and I’d prefer to be on casual terms with the person that’s going to give me my special request flowers.”

“Your ‘fuck you’ flowers?” she asked with a grin and he had the audacity to give a nonchalant shrug.

“The person deserves them, I can assure you.” he replied and sighed. “It’s my coworker. She makes my life a living hell at work. We had a fight and my manager is forcing me to get flowers as an apology. This is me trying to be nice.”

“By sending her ‘fuck you’ flowers?” Elain asked again, her lips twitching. She wondered about this so called ‘horrible coworker’.

“Keyword here, is trying.” he said with a grin and Elain laughed. “Not all of us can be as nice as you, Elain.”

Elain’s cheeks flushed. She liked the way he said her name a lot more than she’d care to admit.

“And how do you know I’m nice?” she countered, leaning off the counter and crossing her arms across her chest with a smile. “You’ve only just met me.”

“Your name is Elain, you’re beautiful, and you own a flower shop. You could literally stab a man in front of me and I would just say he had it coming.” Lucien promptly replied. He sounded insane, he was well aware, but instinct told him he wasn’t wrong. “Also, you smell really nice.”

Elain rolled her eyes and wanted to curse herself for the blush on her cheeks and the smile that was way too wide. “Are you always this shameless of a flirt, Lucien?”

He straightened up as Elain pulled out a book from under the counter and placed it in front of him, flipping through the pages. “Only with pretty girls who own flowershops named Elain.” he said and gave her a charming smile when she paused her flipping to look at him.

She shook her head and chuckled lightly. He was shameless. Very handsome but oh so shameless. “So,” she started, going back to flipping through her flower book for the right ones to fit his order, pointing as she explained. “We have a few options for your amusing choice in the bouquet. There are Geraniums — Horseshoe Geranium which specifically means stupidity and Foxglove flowers which can mean insincerity. There’s also Meadowsweet flowers which mean uselessness, Yellow Carnations that indicate you’re disappointed in a person and last but not least, Orange Lilies which symbolize hatred.”

Elain finally looked up at Lucien, whose grin had gotten wider and wider with each flower that she rattled off and she laughed at his expression. “I take it all these options sound good?” she questioned with a raised brow.

Lucien’s grin was wicked. “Oh, these sound fantastic. Can I have a mix of them all in a bouquet? Please?”

Elain rolled her eyes and chuckled. “As you wish, good sir.” she said then pursed her lips as she started writing down his order. “Is there a note you’d like me to add with the bouquet?”

His eyes lingered on her pursed lips long enough that Elain had to look up confused at his silence and a blush crept on both their faces.

“Sorry.” he said with a sheepish grin and Elain bit her lip, holding back a smile as she continued filling out the order. A moment passed in silence before she responded.

“I don’t mind.” she said softly.

“Good. Because there’s a lot to admire.” Lucien responded, leaning back on the counter, closer to her.

“I’m sure getting spoiled with compliments today.” she said, giving him a playful smile and he grinned in return.

“They’re all well-deserved compliments. I meant them all.”

“Oh, I know. It’s why I haven’t kicked you out yet.” she said as she moved around her counter, grabbing a note card for him to write on and a pen as he laughed. “For your note. The bouquet shouldn’t take too long...I’m caught up on all my early orders. Would you like to wait or should I have them delivered?”

She tilted her head, waiting for his answer and the smile she gave him told him their thoughts were on the same wavelength.

She wanted him to wait.

And wait he would. He’d wait an eternity for those fucken flowers as long as she kept talking to him. Lucien had shamelessly told her this, realizing too late that he was babbling his thoughts aloud.

Elain’s laughter was enough to ease his embarrassment and the two continued chatting as she moved about, putting the bouquet together. Lucien watched her, appreciating the way she moved and talked and the way she laughed at his jokes. Elain’s cheeks were stained red as they talked, trying to contain how much she was enjoying the attention he was giving her, and how invested he was in everything she was saying and doing. Their conversation was comfortable and flowed so naturally that both of them were slightly disappointed in how quickly she finished.

Giving him a shy smile, she gently placed the finished bouquet in all it’s glory in front of him. “Here it is!” she said cheerfully. “Your requested bouquet. Beautiful and full of loathing.”

Lucien grinned, eyeing her work approvingly. “It looks stunning.” he replied and Elain smiled widely, pleased. “Just like the lovely lady who put it together.”

Elain giggled as he reached out, taking her hand and kissed it. “You’re too much.” she mumbled and Lucien chuckled.

“I can’t help it. Something about you…” he said quietly and the two locked eyes.

“Something about you too.” she agreed and Lucien smiled. He paid her and balanced the bouquet in his hands. His eyes flickered between the bouquet and the beautiful girl who had made it and he quickly licked his lips.

“Would...would you like to go out to dinner sometime?” he asked and relief filled his whole body as she beamed at him.

“I would love to.”

“Great! Friday night?”

“I’ll be ready at 6:30.”

“Perfect.”

Elain smiled at him then grabbed one of her notecards and quickly jot down her number. “I expect more shameless flirting till then.” she said softly, curling a strand of hair behind her ear.

“And I will be more than happy to oblige.” He replied, giving her a wink and Elain giggled.

“I’ll see you Friday then.”

“I’ll be flirting with you sooner than that though.” he replied and she winked at him in return, a blush erupting on both their cheeks.

“I look forward to it.”

“Gods, you’re so fucken cute.” Lucien mumbled and Elain laughed, dipping her head shyly. “I have to leave before this kills me.”

She covered her burning face, grinning widely as she then waved him off. “Go back to work before you get fired.”

“Worth it.” he said, using his free hand to make a finger gun and she snorted softly as he waved then finally left the shop.

Elain bit her lip, smiling to herself. In one way or another, her flowers were always bringing her joy.

Elain rushed into the restaurant where she had agreed to meet her sisters earlier that day. She was very excited to tell them about her encounter with Lucien. He had kept his word about the shameless flirting and had her phone buzzing all day; she still couldn’t believe how it happened.

Her pace slowed down when she saw Feyre and Nesta, both seated at their usual table, secluded in a quiet corner of their favorite place. It wasn’t until she was close enough to hear their conversation that she froze completely. On the chair next to Nesta was her sister's bag and a bouquet of flowers that was strangely familiar.

Too familiar.

“And then this asshole hands it to me with a note that says ‘I’m sorry’ in quotation marks like the sarcastic little shit he is.” Nesta snarled and Feyre started laughing. “And then adds that I should look up the meaning of each flower to really appreciate his apology. I’m going to ask Elain what they mean.”

“You are really mean to him, Nes. I’m sure he’s not as horrible as you make him sound.”

“He’s a piece of shit. It brings me joy to make him miserable.” Nesta said with a snort and then noticed Elain. “Elain! You’re finally here. Come on, we’re starving.”

Elain approached the table and sat down slowly, smiling nervously. Oh boy.

“...Nice flowers, Nesta.”

“Thanks.” Nesta replied with a wave of her hand and then picked them up to show Elain. “I got them from a shithead at work as an apology. What do the flowers mean?”

Elain groaned internally. It was indeed her own bouquet full of loathing. She bit her lip. “The guy who gave them to you...his name is Lucien, right?”

Nesta froze and Feyre looked at her curiously. “Yes.” she hissed. Quickly grabbing the note card again, Nesta looked it over. “How did I not notice that he got them from your shop!? That bastard! Did he bother you?!”

“No! He was very sweet.” Elain replied quickly, blushing. “Actually...he asked me out on a date and I said yes. We’ve been texting all day.”

Silence fell on the table before Feyre burst out laughing and Nesta snarled, “What?!”

“It’s later this week. I’m...looking forward to it.”

“Like hell you’re going!” Nesta hissed. “With that idiot! That good for nothing garbage can —”

Elain cut her off with a look. “Nesta.”

Feyre’s laughter had finally subsided and she wiped at her eyes. “Nes...you should be excited for her. She likes him!”

Elain narrowed her eyes at Nesta’s face that was filled with rage, daring her to argue. Feyre looked between the two, her lips twitching.

“So what’s he actually like, then?” Feyre quickly asked. “We know Nesta hates him and makes his life living hell at work.”

Elain gave Nesta one more look before her eyes flickered to Feyre’s face and she gave her a small smile. “He’s actually really nice and funny. I —”

“He has a glass eye and a scar across his face!” Nesta’s growl interrupting her.

“So?!” Elain automatically replied, pouting. “He got it in an accident! It makes him a strong person!”

“He has a glass eye!”

“It makes no difference to me! I like his personality!”

“He’s an asshole, Elain!”

“You think Cassian’s an asshole too and you’re living with him!” Elain hissed back. “Your judgement isn’t exactly perfect!”

“Well, she gets dicked down by Cassian so I mean…” Feyre interjected with a shrug and Nesta glared at her, her cheeks burning.

“That is irrelevant.”

“Is it, Nes? Is it really?” Feyre asked with a raised brow.

The table fell silent again as Nesta and Elain glared at each other and Feyre tried her best not to laugh. It was only when her phone beeped that Elain torn her eyes away from the vicious staring contest with her sister.

Text from: Lucien How’s dinner going with your sisters? Hopefully, I’m not interrupting anything.

Elain’s eyes looked back up at her sisters and her blush gave away who she was talking to, causing Nesta to glare even harder and Feyre to grin widely.

Text from: Elain No, not at all! I was just telling them about you…funny enough, one of my sisters knows you.

Text from: Lucien Really? What a small world! Which sister is that?

Elain hesitated before she sent the next message.

Text from: Elain The coworker you bought the bouquet full of loathing for. She goes by the name Nesta…though you might refer to her very differently.

Elain bit her lip, frowning after she sent the message. She flipped her phone over and then looked at her sisters.

“Now he knows we’re sisters.” Elain grumbled as Feyre rattled off their usual orders to the waiter.

“Good. If he’s smart, he’ll back off.” Nesta growled and Feyre shoved her gently.

“You back off. Let her live.”

“I don’t like him.”

“There’s a surprise.”

Elain’s reply didn’t make it to her mouth when her phone started ringing. Flipping it over, she blinked in surprise at Lucien’s name popping up. She immediately picked up.

“Hello?”

“I’m so sorry for interrupting you at dinner but I realize how awkward this position is for you right now.” he said, hoping he sounded as apologetic as he felt.

Elain chuckled, a small smile on her face. “Are you calling to tell me our date is canceled now?”

“No.” he replied and Elain’s smile grew wider at how horrified he sounded at the idea. He cleared his throat. “I actually wanted to apologize for saying those things about your sister earlier and I promise that I’ll behave and keep work and personal life separate so that you don’t have to feel weird because your sister and I hate each other. Professionally speaking.”

Elain laughed softly. “Just professionally?”

“...Please don’t make this more difficult for me.” he whined softly on the phone. “It’s bad enough I bought her a bouquet full of loathing from her own sister’s shop.”

“Plot twist, isn’t it?”

It was Lucien’s turn to laugh. “Yes, it is. Does she know what the flowers mean?”

Elain grinned. “Not yet.”

“Let’s keep it that way, please.”

“Fair enough.”

“Really, Elain? You’re letting that walking pile of trash interrupt our dinner like this?” Nesta said, making sure she was loud enough to be heard on the other end of the line.

Elain gave Nesta a reproachful look as Feyre shoved her again. “Behave.”

“Fine...but let me talk to him. He is my coworker after all.” Nesta said, her tone calm. She held out her hand.

Elain looked at her suspiciously but Nesta just wiggled her fingers. Her mouth went into a thin and she sighed. “Lucien, Nesta wants to talk to you.”

“More plot twists.” he said, chuckling.

“You don’t have to.” Elain automatically said but both Lucien and Nesta responded at the same time.

“Yes, he does.

“Yes, I do.”

Elain groaned and then held the phone to her chest. “Nesta...please be polite.”

“No guarantees.”

Squinting at her older sister, she finally handed her the phone with a sigh, pressing on the speaker so they could all hear.

“Hello cockroach.” Nesta greeted him and Elain facepalmed as Feyre snorted.

“Hello demon.”

“Of all the people you decided to hit on, you had to choose my sister?”

“I respectfully asked her out on a date. She’s a grown woman. I don’t really think it’s your business.”

“It isn’t.” Elain added and Nesta squinted at her.

“I’m going to be watching your every move and I swear to god if you so much as lay a finger on my sister, I will crush you with my bare hands.” Nesta threatened in one breath. “That is a promise you filthy little vermin —”

Elain snatched the phone from her hand as Feyre cut her off. “Nesta!”

“Jesus christ, Nesta. I’m not going to hurt Elain!” Lucien hissed on the phone.

“What if I want him to touch me?” Elain snapped, knowing it would silence both her sisters and Lucien. “Hm? What if I — what’s the phrase you used about Cassian and Nesta, Feyre? What if I want to get dicked down by Lucien? Would that be such a big deal?”

Lucien made a sound on the phone that sounded like he was choking as Nesta gasped loudly.

“Elain!”

Taking her phone off speaker, she put it back to her ear and spoke softly, “Lucien, I’ll call you when I get home, okay?”

“Yup. Sounds good.” he responded, truly sounding like the air was being choked out of him and Elain's face turned red.

Closing the call, she eyed her sister and held up a hand as Nesta was ready to launch into a speech. “Listen. I know you’re my older sister and you worry about me because I love flowers and seem like a giant idiot who gets easily fooled —”

“That’s never how I think of you, Elain — “ Nesta quickly interjected, her face falling.

“And I know you’re worried about me because the breakup with Graysen was really bad and I was very hurt,” Elain continued, halting Nesta again as her voice shook. “But I am okay. I am fine. And I’m ready to try something new. So please….please be nice to Lucien. I want to see where this goes.”

Nesta fell silent and Feyre gently leaned over to pat Elain’s hand with a small smile.

“We know, Elain. We love you and support you in whatever decision you want to make.” Feyre said softly. “I look forward to getting to know him.”

“...I’m sorry.” Nesta added and reached out to place her hand on Elain’s other hand. “I’ll behave...Try to be nicer to him.”

“Thank you.” Elain said, a relieved smile on her face until Nesta clenched her hand tightly with death in her eyes.

“But if I ever heard the term dicked down and Lucien in the same sentence again, I will kill someone.”

Silence fell on the table once more as Elain closed her eyes, internally groaning at how she was going to have to address that with Lucien when she got home.

It wasn’t until the waiter served their dinner and walked away that Feyre finally broke the silence.

“But what if she does want to get dicked down by Lucien? Elain sounded very enthusiastic.”

“Feyre!” Nesta hissed as the youngest sister broke down in giggles.

Elain groaned audibly now, her face in her hands knowing Feyre was never going to let this go.

“I’m just saying, go Elain, if she does. Nesta said he was a redhead, do you think the carpet matches the drapes?”

“Feyre — I swear to all the Gods I will stab you with this fork if you don’t stop.”

“Elain, you’ll be sure to share details, right? I want Nesta to know every detail of when you and Lucien finally get down to business.”

“Feyre —”

“Ohhhh what if Elain visits him at work and you walk in on her getting dicked down by Lucien in his office? On his desk?”

Feyre squeaked as Nesta assaulted her in some form or another. Elain had given up, sighing deeply, her face burning.

Who knew a bouquet of flowers would cause so much trouble?

#elucien #elucien fanfic #elucien fanfiction #elain archeron #lucien vanserra #gfics #acotar fanfiction #acotar #Going to slowly start posting them without bombarding the tag lol #feedback is always welcome :)#fic: bouquet full of loathing #bouquet full of feelings series

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sophieeeikli · 3 months

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people seriously need to start crediting poets just as much as they credit artists. I feel like, on a whole, Tumblr is better at crediting visual artists and such than most other social medias, but that understanding hasn't caught up with quotes of written art etc. Writers and poets NEED to be credited- all the issues that visual artists have with sunk engagement are equally, if not more present in literary spaces. People DO NOT engage with us on the same level because it is very difficult to consume written work passively, while paintings can receive benefit just from 'looking nice'. I implore you to credit writers who you use in web weaving or who you quote. It's fucking hard out here.

#web weaving #poetry #CREDIT ARTISTS #art #spilled ink #my words #maybe its about who i follow but i see way less stolen art than i used to #the same can NOT be said for poetry screenshots #also my visual art friends i love u so much but it's so much easier for a person to see your work and stop for a moment bc it's VISUAL #w writing u have to actively choose that you will read that piece

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villainsandvictimsalliance · 3 months

Note

It was mentioned several times that vestige AFO had some card up his sleeve that he hasn't used yet. And the fact that Shigaraki still could use AFO meant that the vestige was still there, too. Thinking he wouldn't appear again as a way for Tomura to confront his grooming by AFO and the fact that AFO is the one who created his villain persona and with AFOFA plotline and his relationship with Yoichi being unresolved is more stupid than him returning. Also, can people please start using their eyes and actually read because Horikoshi literally confirmed that Tomura is still inside and screaming in AFO's head 😭

Like I said previously, it's not that it doesn't make sense or that it is bad writing (putting that in bold just for you, anon), it's that I feel it's repetitive.

You need to differentiate between analysis of the story and personal opinions, meaning you need to use your eyes and read what people writes and not assume their intentions.

Every story is only what the writer wants that story to be. The way Horikoshi solves his story only follows the rule of what he wants to tell through it. It doesn't mean that the story had only one way of being told— that's what fanfiction and original fiction exist, to tell a story with the same or different characters in a new way.

Writers are just writers and people can like or dislike their art for multiple reasons. Even the big names through history were subjected to sooo much debated it's funny to remember. A shonen writer is not the exception sjdjjdndjdj

I don't like being rude if I can avoid it. It's just that asks like this made me angry. You could have told me that you don't agree with me and mention all you said in the asks. You could have said that you don't think I'm interpreting things correctly, but don't come at me with passive aggressive asks.

Or at least don't use the anon feature, coward.

Finally, it doesn't annoy me when people come to me in order to understand better the manga or to get my opinion on something. Even when they're wrong and I can point out why, I don't think the right way is to send asks crying about "guys don't you have eyes omg". Don't speak through my blog if you can't make your own posts.

It really didn't cost you anything to be polite.

Btw, for other people to understand what made me mad about this posts:

This anon (let's call them Anon #1) is calling a previous anon (Anon #2) stupid for not liking a bnha plot point.

The problem is that I asked for the personal opinions of the bnha fans. I never said

"I want a literary analysis to determine if that plot point fits the narrative of the story, if it had been addressed in previous instances through the foreshadow and what do you think about bnha fans who ignore those instances".

Personal opinions can be anything. You can decide you don't like something based on vibes alone and it's fine! I'm not asking you to be the most rational person alive, just to tell me how you feel about something.

Here's the posts I'm talking about.

I even mentioned that my opinion about this very subject is biased. It doesn't make sense to be passive aggressive to me to prove a point that I've already admitted too, you know?

Here's the ask of Anon #2.

Anon #2 was never rude to a real person, just called a plot point in a fictional story "bad". I'm the first to admit that AFO coming back makes sense for the story and that it is not bad, that I disagree with Anon #2 about it.

I clearly stated all those things at the end of my ask to Anon #2.

I don't like when people use their knowledge about something fictional to feel superior to others. I don't like when people have something to say and they know it's rude, so they say it hiding behind the anon feature, sending an ask to someone else's blog instead of making their own post about it.

Maybe Anon #1 never meant to offend me, but does it make it better if it was directed towards Anon #2 and not me?

Complaining about people not being able to comprehend what they read is ironic when Anon #1 didn't read correctly my answer to Anon #2 in the first place.

My answer to this asks is just about how every fan of an art piece is entitled to think whatever they want, be them right or not. If you're gonna disrespect them, be responsible and don't hide behind others like some sort of bully.

The worst part is that Anon #1 has great points that totally went to waste because they wanted to be an asshole soooo bad.

This is how it's done. I'm saying to Anon #1 what I think about them directly, I take all responsibility for my words and I'm not afraid to acknowledge what I've said.

Is the situation clear now?

#shan's asks #bnha manga spoilers #bnha spoilers #mha spoilers

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power-chords · 11 months

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“If you have to turn your brain off to like something it’s probably not good for you” (set of tags I just saw on a mostly Whatever post about escapist fiction that I take issue with the framing of more so than the general animating sentiment) — OK first of all this is not a suitable metaphor because it presumes that “enjoying a thing” and “being fully, consciously, deliciously aware that it’s dumb as bricks” are binary and incompatible states. Like. Again. Here we are at “you have reducible complexity.” Second of all, why does art need to be my vitamins or my health food or whatever. Can’t you trust me to indulge in Culturally Dominant Narratives responsibly?

Forget for a moment that “escapist literature,” at least as the English term applies in western literary studies, is a category spanning multiple fictional genres with historical patterns of use that are already resoundingly negative; that science fiction, fantasy, horror, and folklore of all stripes have all fallen under its banner; that certain forms of escapist literature like dime novels and comic books were the purview of marginalized writers whose race or gender made them persona non grata in more “respectable” publishing circles; that the claim that “escapist literature” is inherently unchallenging and has nothing to offer but comfort is itself a flawed assumption that various theorists have been railing against for decades. It’s the sanctimonious, alarmist TONE of these posts which even in their most benevolent expressions (I.E. no one is being instructed to kill themselves for reading stuff) manage to overstate the threat of…………. reading entertaining stuff. This is not to say that escapist fiction should be free from criticism (on the contrary!), but I sometimes get the impression that Tumblr users are inventing literary boogeymen out of some pretty insular AO3 and Booktok anxieties. And inventing hypothetical readers who intake narrative information like passive receptacles for Problematic Suggestion, who lack any capacity for more active, sophisticated synthesis. Skill issue!!!

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msclaritea · 6 months

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Here’s Why Willy Wonka Is An Autistic Icon | Medium

Here’s Why Willy Wonka Is An Autistic Icon

In celebration of the release of the new Wonka movie this month, I recently rewatched, for the billionth time, the original film — Willy Wonka & the Chocolate Factory. Wonka media has been a special interest of mine for the past seven years — -an autism-related term used to refer to topics and subjects that occupy headspace constantly, meaning I know more about Willy Wonka and his crimes against humanity than any sane person really ought to.

While watching the film, I was once again struck by how much I related to the character. His odd mannerisms, his disregard for small talk and social niceties, and his fixation on a self-constructed world all reminded me of a lot of my own experiences growing up as a quiet, book-obsessed, undiagnosed autistic kid. Although I was recently diagnosed at the age of twenty-one (it’s never too late!), the sense that something was always a little off has dogged me since childhood — in my odd tendency to repeat words and phrases, my limited and intense interests, my awkwardness in conversation and struggle to make friends. And as I sat there, watching Wonka spout off nonsensical phrases, constant literary references, and the occasional bit of wisdom, I finally got the urge to lay out, once and for all, what an autistic icon this character is, and has been for the past sixty years. Let’s dive into a world of pure imagination together.

A Little Nonsense

Autism, since it is formally classified as a disorder by the DSM5, has a whole host of medical definitions that try to sum up, in as digestible a form as possible, just what exactly is wrong with you or your child. Instead of pinpointing one definition, I’m going to temporarily throw the psychological jargon out the window and focus on the single term “disorder.” Disorder, classically defined, is a state of confusion or messiness — usually a form of existence that runs counter to broad definitions of harmonic living. Although unintended, I find that the literary definition rather than the scientific one fits my, and Wonka’s, experience of living as autistic. Disorder is chaos, it’s doing things just because.

Take this excerpt from Charlie and the Great Glass Elevator, the rightfully-maligned sequel to Charlie and the Chocolate Factory:

“I have never met a man,” said Grandma Georgina, “who talks so much absolute nonsense!”

“A little nonsense now and then, is relished by the wisest men,” Mr. Wonka said.

Many autistic people are told at one point or another that the way they think and act does not make sense. For example, in many adaptations of the story, visiting the chocolate room for the first time leads the parents to question why it came to exist in the first place.

In the original West End musical adaptation, the conversation goes something like this:

Mr. Salt: Well if it isn’t for anything, and it doesn’t make money, then why on Earth does it need to exist at all?

Wonka: You really don’t see, do you?

A painter needs no reason

To make a thing of art

Yes, there’s no switch to stop and start the flow

Willy Wonka (Douglas Hodge) in the Chocolate Room from the 2013 West End production of Charlie and the Chocolate Factory

We live in an unprecedented age of unthinking consumerism — our lives, from the get-go, are predicated on beneficial transactions. If I am to create something, I better be able to justify its usefulness in the language of monetary gain. Entertainment has become inextricably linked to the words content and consumption — creators make content, and we now consume the art we once admired. This implies a one-sided relationship to the way we engage with art — when we consume something it no longer becomes a conversation between creator and viewer, but rather a passively made, ready-to-eat distraction on which the viewer can project anything and everything they like. To make art for art’s sake or simply because we find it beautiful, is, in today’s age, an indicator of disordered living. Thus, Wonka making the chocolate room, or his factory for that matter, just because is, to most people, nonsense.

Again, from The Great Glass Elevator:

“He walked slowly towards the chocolate waterfall. It was an unhappy truth, he told himself, that nearly all people in the world behave badly when there is something really big at stake. Money is the thing they fight over most.”

The us vs. them mindset suggested by the phrase “nearly all people in the world” is one commonly adopted by autistic people, who feel that their perspective and lived experience do not align with that of their peers. Wonka, in creating a world of his own, has effectively made a safe haven for himself where the things he loves can exist without justification — a form of escapism I often engaged in as a child. In Wonka’s factory, the oddities that would make him an outcast in the external world are, to him, “simply second nature” — the name of the song in which he extolls the joys of being different:

It’s no blessing, It’s a curse

No wait…strike that and reverse

I wouldn’t have it any other way.

What’s a Social Cue?

In the 2017 Broadway adaptation of the book, Wonka opens the boisterous and breakneck-paced song “Strike that, Reverse It” by, muttering:

“Now let’s get the small-talk out of the way.”

The word “small-talk,” for context, is said as if it is the single most loathsome word in the English dictionary.

Though every adaptation of Wonka is unique in some way, all seem to share a love for their craft that is only rivaled by their hatred of social conventions. From the 2005 Wonka’s disastrous introduction and awkward giggling to the original book Wonka’s fidgety and sporadic movements, none of the Wonkas have exactly come off as approachable. Even the new Wonka, played by Timothée Chalamet, has his moment as he practically screams “You’ve never had chocolate?!” to his sidekick Noodle, who answers his outburst nonchalantly. All of these traits: poor conversational skills, fidgeting, volume control, and a dislike of small-talk are all classic characteristics associated with ASD.

Autistic people also often struggle with echolalia, or the repetition of words and phrases for seemingly no reason. Gene Wilder’s Wonka, with his near-constant rattling off of quotes from classic literature parallels this condition, especially (and most entertainingly) when he pedals a bike in the inventing room.

Similar to symptoms associated with ADHD, many autistic people will also find that their hyperfixations and interests make it difficult to focus on daily tasks for long periods of time. Wonka is so fixated on making chocolate that he has actually built a factory where he does nothing but make chocolate, and has been doing so for decades. Take also these lyrics from “Must Be Believed to Be Seen”:

No magic spells, no potions

Forswear legerdemain

My kingdom’s created from notions

All swirling inside of my brain

The manic delivery of “swirling inside of my brain” in both recordings of the song speaks to the sometimes uncomfortable intensity of creative thinking. I want to note here that I’m aware of the “it’s not that deep” factor that plays into all of this, but I kind of shoved it in the back of my mind the second I decided to write an analytical article about Willy Wonka. Besides, I know I personally struggle with a constant barrage of thoughts here and there — sometimes to the point where I have trouble falling asleep at night. Hence these lyrics from Simply Second Nature:

The mind is such a wonder to explore

And though some nights I dread

All the voices in my head

I’d rather be this way than be a bore

I also made a compilation a while back of the mannnyyyyy (and I mean many) times 2017 Broadway Wonka displays some of the physical symptoms of ASD, often referred to as stimming.

Autistic Solidarity

I know I’ve been harping a little too much on the Broadway adaptation, but I promise there’s a good reason.

In this version of the story, rather than just being a decent kid who, for the most part, minds his own business, Charlie is awarded the factory because he thinks as Wonka does. This kind of connection is also implied in the 2005 adaptation, where Charlie is seen to have built an impressively large model of Wonka’s factory made entirely of toothpaste caps, but is only made explicit in both musical versions. This Charlie draws up fantastical ideas instead of doing his homework and spends his remaining free time endlessly pestering his Grandpa Joe for stories about Willy Wonka. Wonka, to this Charlie, is essentially a special interest — he hardly goes five minutes without bringing his name up, or delivering an excitable song summarizing the man’s life history.

Wonka, of course, sees a lot of himself in Charlie. In the song, “Must Be Believed to Be Seen” there’s a section in the middle where the tempo slows and Wonka wistfully sings:

Despite the man seen at these doors

My childhood home was bland like yours

But I knew how to look, to find

A world that wasn’t colorblind

This is the first time (and only until the end of the show) that Wonka makes a genuine attempt to reach out to Charlie — and he does so with language relating to neurodivergent thinking. The musical doesn’t exactly turn to diagnostic criteria for sourcing lyrics, but the use of the phrase “a world that wasn’t colorblind” is once again suggestive of the us vs. them mindset, offsetting the ordinary blandness of the “normal” world with the vibrancy of the neurodivergent imagination. In the same sequence, Wonka also sings:

But in the end there’s quite a prize

If you can see with more than eyes

Autistic people are often hypersensitive to their environments and engage with the stimuli around them more keenly than their neurotypical peers. Exploring the world with all senses, and often with a detail-oriented mindset literally allows many autistic people to see the world with much more than eyes. Often small and irrelevant elements in an environment become points of interest for those with ASD where they might otherwise be ignored by neurotypicals.

Lastly, I want to finish with a brief discussion of one of my favorite lyrics in the musical, this time from the closing song “The View From Here”, where Wonka takes Charlie up through the atmosphere in his glass elevator:

When a boy has just a touch of odd

And he walks the streets without a nod

He should know that odd is a gift from God

Like this starry blue chandelier

Willy Wonka (Christian Borle) and Charlie Bucket (Jake Ryan Flynn) in the Glass Elevator

Most neurodivergent people will be the first to tell you that living as they are isn’t easy. For me, I have trouble finding humor in the same things my friends do, making conversation, focusing, following directions, empathizing, etc. Sometimes things that seem easy or mundane to others are nearly impossible for me. Worst of all, these aversions and behaviors are inexplicable too. I cannot put into words why I am what I am, I just know that I have to learn to accept it. However, for every moment I spend hating myself for what I cannot change, I strive to find more moments where I love living as I am.

I listened to “The View From Here” for the first time in many years recently, and I’m not ashamed to say that I cried a little (maybe more than a little). To quantify one’s differences not as a mistake or a joke or a fault — but as a gift is to accept that they let us do impossibly wonderful things. We need to stop looking for ways to fix or mask autism, and instead make society a more accommodating place for neurodivergency to thrive. Only then can autistic kids dream less about faraway places where they can live as they are, and instead live those dreams in the here and now. And we can start by reaching out to that touch of oddness in each other, and recognizing what the embrace of pure imagination can do for us all.

THERE IS A WELL-DOCUMENTED HISTORY OF NAZIS EXPERIMENTING ON PEOPLE WITH AUTISM.

IT HAS BEEN NOTED BY PROFESSIONALS THAT MANY PEOPLE IN THE TRANSGENDER MOVEMENT HAVE AUTISM

BLOGGERS, CLAIMING TO BE AUTISTIC, HAVE ENGAGED IN VERY AGGRESSIVE BULLYING.

THEY RELENTLESSLY ACCUSED A CERTAIN ACTOR, WHO, HIMSELF SUFFERS ANXIETY OF BEING ABLEST, IN AN EFFORT TO TARNISH ONE OF HIS BEST STAGE PERFORMANCES

THAT SAME ACTOR WAS BEING ENCOURAGED TO DO PHANTOM OF THE OPERA, WHICH I SABOTAGED, AND I'M GLAD I DID, BECAUSE WEEKS LATER I CAME ACROSS AN OLD ARTICLE, WHERE THEY SAID, EMPHATICALLY THAT THE PHANTOM MUST HAVE BEEN AUTISTIC. THE POINT?

IF SAID ACTOR HAD PLAYED THE PHANTOM, HEEDLESS OF THIS THEORY, HE WOULD HAVE BEEN ATTACKED, AGAIN.

AND THAT IS WHAT THIS ARTICLE BELOW IS; AN INTENTION TO ENCOURAGE PEOPLE WITH AUTISM TO SEE WILLY WONKA AS BEING AUTISTIC.

AND WHEN THE NEXT ACTOR WHO PLAYS WONKA, ISN'T AWARE OF THE FACT THAT AUTISM HAS BEEN LOWKEY ADDED, THEN THAT PERSON WILL GET RIPPED TO SHREDS.... BECAUSE OF MANIPULATING ARTICLES, LIKE THIS ONE. THIS IS NOT HARMLESS. THE SAME THING HAPPENED ONLINE WITH BBC SHERLOCK. BLOGGERS ERRONEOUSLY ATTRIBUTED HIS PERSONALITY TRAITS TO AUTISM, THANKS TO THE WRITERS ON THE SHOW. IT WAS ENCOURAGED, TO THE POINT WHERE IF YOU DID NOT AGREE, YOU WERE ATTACKED FOR IT.

THE RIGHT BUILDS ARMIES, AND THEY WILL USE ANYONE THEY HAVE TO.

#Willy Wonka #Timothy Chalamet #Hollywood Has Been Adding Autistic Traits To Characters That Originally Had None #BBC Sherlock #Phantom of The Opera #My fucking GOD!

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