#orym discourse

[xombigirl]

EVERY FUCKER WHO HAS EVER SAID ORYM HAS NO HOPE, THAT HE'S GOING DARK OR THAT HE'S JUST GOING TO FULLY BREAK OWES ME $500 AFTER LAST NIGHT'S EPISODE.

[septembermonologues]

I understand that some may be concerned about orym letting laudna slip into darkness with delilah and telling keyleth about lillianas connection to imogen (which even then, I understood why he did it) but takes like that annoy me because it discredits how good of a conversation that was!!!! keyleth validating oryms anger is good actually imo!!!!! he's lived through weeks of people telling him that these people, who have taken lives for their selfish agendas, may have a point because of their use of the gods as a scapegoat!!!!! it's so powerful to me that his leader, someone he looks up to so much, is on the same page with him, not making him feel like he has to hide his feelings or battle with the anger inside of him!!!!!! it's natural!!!!!!!!! she's putting trust in him, believing he can lead and fight!!!!!!!!!!! he is not acting against his people, he is standing with them as they are with him!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I am both scared and EXTREMELY EXCITED about where orym is going to go as a character I can't wait for the YouTube vod to come out on Monday and cry over that convo again

i was just hoping that meeting his family and talking to keyleth about it in full might like... be a moment of reflection or contemplation or realization for that crowd but it seems to have made them worse.

i don't want to say it's not possible that he hasn't or won't make some questionable choices but i've been struggling with people who seem to blame him entirely for delilah possibly having more control on laudna, especially after the talk laudna and imogen had last ep! like i feel like they totally ignored it because it would minimize the role they forced orym into taking.

and i'm glad he said something about liliana now because that's a big fucking thing to just be upfront about given their involvement and the current stakes. i don't think it was to throw her under the bus, i think it was a 'there's no point in lying about or hiding this because you can take one look at the two of them and connect the dots'.

they have both lost people they love. they both have to right to be angry and want justice. idk why they can say that for keyleth but not for orym.

[sofigrace]

unpopular opinion

while orym is correct on his hate for ludinus he is also incredibly biased

If ludinus was pro-gods and instead did all the things he did to open the divine gate so the gods can be free and closer to their believers, orym would still be against him

I think the part of the fandom that have him as the "only morally correct blorbo" are being extremely reductive to his character.

[imperial-cat]

Reading Orym discourse on twitter is kinda funny, "it's unfair that he has a trump card and can shut down any conversation with it", like, I don't know but, if I don't have a counter argument in a discussion, maybe this means the other person has a valid point?

[the-big-nope]

See, my thing about people getting bent out of shape about Orym listening to the Imodna conversation is that they seem to automatically ascribe some suspicious intent to it when that’s not actually a confirmed thing at all. Orym could very well have just been hanging back and tuning into different parts of the collective conversation, and just happened to catch that bit. It’s like these people have never been at a party and just casually eavesdropped on conversations they’re not a part of. It’s not actually a part of the text that Orym was listening deliberately or out of suspicion, it occurred in that moment because Liam wanted to underscore a point in the narrative, and then Orym tuned out of the conversation before it was over. I don’t understand why people are so determined to read everything Orym does involving Imogen and Laudna specifically as hostile. My dude was just wallflower-ing it up and happened to be listening at a narratively poignant spot.

[bread-wizards]

I actually think Dorian and Orym should fight more.

Remember when their slowly building tension over and entire episode (full of passive aggressive remarks and blame throwing) led to threats? And how after, Orym thanked Dorian for handing over the crown sadly because he knew Dorian would be mad at him? And Dorian couldn't even look at him because he was legitimately hurt, thinking Orym was disappointed in him for doing what he thought was right? That was peak.

The fact they went from that to their current closeness and trust is the best part of their entire dynamic. Their relationship was hard fought and still will be. They will fight for it because they respect and care for one another deeply, and their disagreements don't change that, only improve it.

[revvethasmythh]

You know, I think there's something so, so insidious to the idea that Orym's perspective of the Vanguard is "flawed/human" or that him repeatedly reminding his friends what the Vanguard does (kill innocents to achieve their means) "blocks nuance" in the conversation, etc, because it implies that, in this mythical "objective" perspective that apparently exists, the Vanguard aren't so bad. If only Orym could put aside his petty grievances, such as the murder of his father and husband, and let people be nuanced about this situation, he'd see there's two sides to this story. And why discount the Vanguard's perspective just because *checks notes* they're a massive, manipulative cult that preys on vulnerable people to join their ranks and turns them to violence, or that they work with a centuries-old fascist eugenicist literally mind-controlling psychic government with the goal of freeing a creature that could very well destroy the world as we know it and even if it doesn't, will leave an enormous power vacuum for that fascist government to potentially occupy when they invade Exandria?

I think there's some misconception people have that they think war shouldn't ever be personal and if it does become personal for someone then their logic is too clouded by their feelings to see the situation clearly, just automatically. And perhaps sometimes, in some contexts, this can be true! But not here. It's actually quite cut and dried that Orym's "flawed, human" perspective is the one reminding everyone of the human cost to Ludinus' grand plans, all in the name of so called "progress"

[swordscleric]

What is it about Orym that makes a certain subsection of the fandom lose their goddamn minds! The Wildmother is not manipulating him by showing him his dead husband like lads (gender neutral) cop the fuck on

[villadiodatis]

One of the many things I’ll never understand about certain Orym criticisms is when they say he’s on a revenge quest, or obsessed with revenge, or however they frame it. Orym was originally sent on this mission by his old boss because it was a threat to the security of both Zephrah and the world! There were mysterious connected killings he was investigating! And now, his mission is “stop a maniacal evil wizard from massively destabilizing the structure of the world, creating an unfathomably huge power vacuum, and releasing a creature who is VERY DANGEROUS.” Does it hurt that these are the same people who killed his family? Of course not. (And, frankly, if this was just about revenge he would still be entirely justified lmao.) But he has never indicated that this is solely about revenge.

He said at Will’s grave, “I'm doing this for you, but it's so much bigger than you and me.” And that sums it up—he’s trying to protect the world in the names of those he’s lost, not seek vengeance solely on their behalf. Will and Derrig’s memories are with him in everything he does. That doesn’t mean he’s obsessed with revenge. It means he’s a protector, just like they were.

[song-of-baldy-ron]

I feel like it’s getting missed among everything but let’s be clear: the #1 reason Laudna tried to steal the sword was to claim its power

She rationalized it with another true statement that the sword was a symbol of what they faced with Otohan and that Orym shouldn’t have claimed it without speaking to the group first, but her goal was to absorb it and give it to Delilah

She is great at choosing her words carefully

[burr-ell]

love that matt saw people woobifying the vanguard and went "the people who started the campaign on murder? lol anyway their besties suck ass too"

[caeslxys]

I’ve mentioned this elsewhere but it feels relevant again in light of the most recent episode. Something that’s really fascinating to me about Orym’s grief in comparison to the rest of the hells’ grief is that his is the youngest/most fresh and because of that tends to be the most volatile when it is triggered (aside from FCG, who was two and obviously The Most volatile when triggered.)

As in: prior to the attack on Zephrah, Orym was leading a normal, happy, casual life! with family who loved him and still do! Grief was something that was inflicted upon him via Ludinus’ machinations, whereas with characters like Imogen or Ashton, grief has been the background tapestry of their entire lives. And I think that shows in how the rest of them are largely able to, if not see past completely (Imogen/Laudna/Chetney) then at least temper/direct their vitriol or grief (Ashton/Fearne/Chetney again) to where it is most effective. (There is a glaring reason, for example, that Imogen scolded Orym for the way he reacted to Liliana and not Ashton. Because Ashton’s anger was directed in a way that was ultimately protective of Imogen—most effective—and Orym’s was founded solely in his personal grief.)

He wants Imogen to have her mom and he wants Lilliana to be salvageable for Imogen because he loves Imogen. But his love for the people in his present actively and consistently tend to conflict with the love he has for the people in his past. They are in a constant battle and Orym—he cannot fathom losing either of them.

(Or, to that point, recognize that allowing empathy to take root in him for the enemy isn't losing one of them.)

It is deeply poignant, then, that Orym’s grief is symbolized by both a sword and shield. It is something he wields as a blade when he feels his philosophy being threatened by certain conversational threads (as he believes it is one of the only things he has left of Will and Derrig, and is therefore desperately clinging onto with both bloody hands even if it makes him, occasionally, a hypocrite), but also something he can use in defense of the people he presently loves—if that provocative, blade-grief side of him does not push them—or himself—away first.

(it won’t—he is as loved by the hells as he loves them. he just needs to—as laudna so beautifully said—say and hear it more often.)

[visexual-maelstrom]

wait, are people actually saying that orym bringing up his dead family "blocks nuance in the conversation"? oh boy oh boy guys wtf

he's the only one that's keeping the hells grounded. they get lost so easily in hypotheticals and what ifs and every time orym is the one to bring them back to reality and remind them of what the ruby vanguard has done and what's truly at stake here

i can't believe folks are actually looking for nuance in the murder moon cult. spoiler alert guys, they're not good people and frankly, orym was way nicer to liliana last episode, she doesn't deserve his kindness

[utilitycaster]

The thing about the argument that the sword makes Laudna uncomfortable is that it's valid if it does, but if you've been in any sort of organization that attempts to have an emotionally open dialogue in making decisions, and especially if you've been in any sort of leadership position within it, you will almost certainly encounter people who suddenly become uncomfortable when, as the meme goes, we are not about them. You encounter people who suddenly express discomfort - which should ideally be brought up early in the conversation since that alone may be a reason to blackball a decision - when multiple other arguments haven't worked (and during the ensuing argument this episode, you can easily watch Orym stick to the same exact story he's been saying for 50+ episodes and that he wants to reclaim this sword and use it to kill Ludinus while Laudna throws out multiple arguments, switching from one to the other as the rest of the party slowly realizes the sword isn't cursed and that this is Delilah's influence). You see this in internet spaces as well; people who do not draw a line between "trigger" and "squick" or "discomfort" and "dislike" even though that line very much exists.

Obviously you do have to still listen, because there are plenty of valid reasons to change a decision because someone involved is uncomfortable; but even a legitimately uncomfortable person does not automatically outweigh the needs of everyone else and you cannot please everyone at once. These decisions must be made contextually because otherwise "I'm uncomfortable with this" becomes a magic Uno Reverse card to hold the group decisions hostage. It's a factor, but ultimately, even if Delilah were in no way involved, if Laudna's the only person uncomfortable and this also means a lot to Orym, the solution is likely going to be either "keep it out of sight" or "give it to a member of the Accord". And yeah, as Imogen points out, if Laudna's genuinely uncomfortable with Orym having a sword with a dark history, absorbing it herself really undercuts that point.

[zwoftt]

you gotta know i was still fishin for those dorym moments ((even in this super tense episode)

despite the discourse.

liam/orym nodding and hyping up robbie/dorian’s force cage move on fearne. also was the one to usher him into making the decision even when he was being hesitant about it

honorable mention: robbie saying “i’m still in the hallway :(“ and liam laughing super hard

the little nod liam/orym makes when dorian asks fearne “who do you see as your real father?”.

robbie/dorian frantically trying to figure out the best way to get rid of the guards who were coming over to him to grab the emissary; liam/orym saying “cmon rizz. let’s go rizzler” to hype him up

during the arch heart talk, [i think] i saw robbie and liam glance over at one another a couple of times to see reactions to certain things…. and then of course the pain-filled face liam makes for orym when dorian says his speech.

i wonder if i missed anything small, but for now this is what i got! it’s crumbs!! i’m hoping for a conversation between dorian and orym next episode, or at least an explanation from dorian as to why he “won’t ever like the gods. ever.” i NEED that angst to be shown. because he is being MISUNDERSTOOD in game and out of game by watchers. i’ve been craving a heart to heart convo between just dorian and orym for the longest time now though so fingers crossed. my boys needa hug and make out or whateva.

DORIAN DISCUSS!

the world is ending pretty damn fast according to the arch heart and i know deep down in my little soul that dorian “i would do anything for my friends” storm would not betray or do anything without his group, and quite frankly without orym; who he’s said multiple times was his line of following [and because of how tunnel visioned he seems to still be regarding orym in general.] dorian doesn’t know what’s right or wrong anymore, he’s trying to honor his brother by doing the right thing. and not even that is being settled. it’s only natural for him to go a little bit angry. especially when he’s been back in BH for what? five days? he doesn’t know everything that’s happened, and BH clearly doesn’t know everything that he’s been through either. can you even begin to imagine how it feels to know that your brother was mercilessly killed by a goddess, (who’s kin was asked to help with this same fight and did nothing as-well) and you might not be able to ever get the satisfaction of giving her that same pain, so all you do now is try and do the ‘right thing’ because it’s what your murdered brother would do?? but now that part is steering off the edge too??? yeah. yeah i think i’d be pretty fucking angry too.

[thewickedkat]

long post incoming; meta enthusiasts may wish to digest this in chunks.

i am so completely exasperated with Laudna as of the latest episode. however, i temper that exasperation with my enjoyment as a viewer; indeed, i am feasting on the conflict, thinking finally, some good fucking food, because i think (and have always thought) that Laudna is terrifically interesting as a character and she presents wonderful opportunities for growth not only on her end, but as a catalyst for others.

that being said. the sword. how she handled it. how she handled her own trauma bubbling up, how she handled (or didn't) Delilah, how she handled Orym and Chetney and Dorian and the whole miserable mess she made.

it was selfish. there. i said it. you may disagree with me, i care not, but her course of action was terribly selfish and destructive.

i know many people out there have been likening her behaviour to that of an addict's (and there are many common factors there: the hiding, the lying by omission, the shame, the acquiescence to bad behaviour), but i think in some ways that to do so is reductive, and also removes agency from Laudna herself.

she is allowing her trauma to almost make her decisions for her, allowing it to define her, and she is not giving herself the opportunity to realise that growth beyond it is possible--or, perhaps, she does realise this and is simply too afraid to reach out and grasp it. i think even if Delilah weren't trying to subsume her, Laudna would still be self-sabotaging and self-destructive and still try to hide the parts of her she felt were undesirable; Delilah in many ways simply makes it easier for Laudna to do so and, if pressed, provides a rationalisation for Laudna's choices and actions (as in 'it wasn't me, it was her, she made me do it).

first and foremost, Laudna was a victim of heinous trauma, being murdered and then being put on grotesque display. then she was further traumatised in coming back from the dead and being forced to isolate herself from people for many years, with only Delilah's honeysweet venom dripping into her ear for that time. then she is murdered again as an object lesson for the woman she loves, then stuffed down so deep into her own psyche by the one who first killed her; she is fought for and brought back by her friends...who then seem to do little to check in with her, to make sure she is stable, or coping, because they each have their own baggage and oh by the way, the world is possibly ending. to be fair, there is little time for therapy and stability when you are literally running from crisis to crisis and trying to stop something you haven't even conceived of in your nightmares.

she feels dismissed, often, minimised, and she never developed healthy people skills or coping mechanisms (i am sorry but as much as i love Pât��, a dead rat does not a support group make). so she lashes out, has poor emotional regulation, and Does Crappy Things. so i also understand when she said 'what else have i to give, but myself?'

all that being said. what she did with Orym and the sword was fucking selfish. she is behaving like a child, as if she is the only one whose tragedies matter; she's playing Oppression Olympics, and can i just point out that Orym was the one to say 'i'm sorry' but Laudna never apologised for accosting him while he slept and hurting him? saying 'i didn't mean to hurt you' is not the same, because that implies that if she had not hurt him, stealing from him was perfectly acceptable and reasonable.

i don't believe her when she said 'i accept responsibility' because that means one must accept the consequences of their own actions, and right after she said that, she argued with everyone, told the oldest member of the Hells that he had no right to talk about loss to her, and then fled. that isn't accepting responsibility; that is mouthing platitudes in the hopes you will sway others to your point of view and when it fails, leaving in a huff like a child having a tantrum.

she didn't even bother to ask Orym why he kept the sword. she just tried to take.

Laudna often reacts from a place of fear: of pain, of more trauma, fear of inadequacy, of loss. all of these fears are valid. they are understandable, given all that has happened to her. but just because her fears are valid does not give her the right to make others pay for her emotional baggage. this is what makes her behaviour in ep 95 selfish. all of her actions in the back half of that episode are things she chose to do, and now she must sit in the mess she made. Laudna seems to be falling into the same mental rut that many victims fall into when their trauma isn't dealt with in a healthy fashion: they start fucking others over, as if being a victim excuses it. it does not.

and before others come for me, i say that as one who used to do the same fucking thing but i was lucky enough to have therapy. Laudna doesn't have that luxury--none of the Hells do. there simply isn't time to make space for any of their issues, not just Laudna's. Imogen is still wrestling with her mother; Fearne is wrestling with her parentage; Orym is just trying to keep his feet under him and do what he feels is right without betraying anyone he cares for (yes, including Laudna, shut up); Ashton is still trying to process the loss of Fresh Cut Grass (for gods' sakes, the crafting night was a fucking wake for the lil guy); Dorian just lost his brother and watched his friend succumb to a Betrayer God that turned her into a monster; and Chetney? Chetney is an old man who, i personally think, can pick his battles and knows how to compartmentalise better than any of these kids.

Laudna is not unique in that she has suffered horribly. no one is saying she hasn't, but her behaviour implies that she believes they are saying that. her actions imply she believes not only that she does not trust her friends (thanks, Dorian), but that acknowledging others' losses somehow negates hers. there just isn't time to healthily process any of this, which sucks. it does. i do think her friends love her, care for her deeply, and i think part of the reason they haven't checked up on her as much as they could is because a) they're afraid that her problem with Delilah is much worse than they thought (duh, it is); b) they can't fix the Delilah Problem right now even if they were qualified to do so (even Pike couldn't scour that bitch out of Laudna, she said as much); and c) they run the very substantial risk of wholly alienating Laudna if they press the issue too hard, thus not only losing an asset in the fight against the Vanguard and Ludinus, but also a friend and lover.

it's shit, all around, we all know that. but to pretend that it's okay she did what she did to Orym--or worse, somehow transfer responsibility from her onto him and make it his fault--is infantilising and disingenuous at best, and more than a little insulting.