the-big-nope

[the-big-nope]

I’m going to say something I’ve been thinking for a long time. Travis/Chetney always bringing up Molaesmyr gets laughs but I think it is the largest factor which is making Matt’s attempt to have the Predathos question be a real debate, and the cast treating it as one not only fall flat for me, but have me ready to be incredibly disappointed in the storytelling of C3 depending on what happens.

Molaesmyr is the most pure example we have of Ludinus’s sins and what happens if he gets what he wants. He contacted Predathos and destroyed a civilization. Not only destroyed it, but twisted the animals, plant life, and people of the city and for hundreds of miles around into horrible, tortured and suffering mockeries of themselves, still haunting a perpetually dying space. That is what Matt presented when we visited Molaesmyr in episode 57 and, because Matt is good at horror and especially body horror, it really landed.

We’ve heard the cast say several times now that the characters definitely want to stop Ludinus from getting any power but after that “we’ll see.” We’ll see what? How is doing any version of what Ludinus wants a victory, even if he’s not involved? How are we considering that it might be fine to let Predathos out to chase/eat the gods or to control after seeing what it did to Molaesmyr? Do the people we saw as twisted and suffering mockeries of their former selves in that dead city not matter to the story at all? Are they just set dressing we’re supposed to forget?

Trying to present any version of what Ludinus ultimately wants, releasing Predathos, as a possible and even potentially correct or admirable endgame was, imo, a huge mistake after seeing Molaesmyr. As an audience of this story, it turns who we’ve been told are protagonists into villains. And while some stories can do that well, I don’t have confidence this one could, in large part because D&D is designed to be heroic fantasy. And seeing the heroes turn to villains at the last second will be even harder to swallow if the story tries to tell us they had a point.

[the-big-nope]

I’m going to say something I’ve been thinking for a long time. Travis/Chetney always bringing up Molaesmyr gets laughs but I think it is the largest factor which is making Matt’s attempt to have the Predathos question be a real debate, and the cast treating it as one not only fall flat for me, but have me ready to be incredibly disappointed in the storytelling of C3 depending on what happens.

Molaesmyr is the most pure example we have of Ludinus’s sins and what happens if he gets what he wants. He contacted Predathos and destroyed a civilization. Not only destroyed it, but twisted the animals, plant life, and people of the city and for hundreds of miles around into horrible, tortured and suffering mockeries of themselves, still haunting a perpetually dying space. That is what Matt presented when we visited Molaesmyr in episode 57 and, because Matt is good at horror and especially body horror, it really landed.

We’ve heard the cast say several times now that the characters definitely want to stop Ludinus from getting any power but after that “we’ll see.” We’ll see what? How is doing any version of what Ludinus wants a victory, even if he’s not involved? How are we considering that it might be fine to let Predathos out to chase/eat the gods or to control after seeing what it did to Molaesmyr? Do the people we saw as twisted and suffering mockeries of their former selves in that dead city not matter to the story at all? Are they just set dressing we’re supposed to forget?

Trying to present any version of what Ludinus ultimately wants, releasing Predathos, as a possible and even potentially correct or admirable endgame was, imo, a huge mistake after seeing Molaesmyr. As an audience of this story, it turns who we’ve been told are protagonists into villains. And while some stories can do that well, I don’t have confidence this one could, in large part because D&D is designed to be heroic fantasy. And seeing the heroes turn to villains at the last second will be even harder to swallow if the story tries to tell us they had a point.

[the-big-nope]

I’m glad my additions didn’t come off in the wrong way! I read the original post and wasn’t going to reply because it was specifically addressing people who just seemed to be uncomfortable with change, but as more thoughts were added it really made me think about why certain aspects of the campaign don’t land for me in this area and I wanted to write some words about it.

I did actually initially write a bunch more words in response to your last reblog, since the moral complexities in the relations between the gods and mortals in this campaign are fascinating even when it appears we disagree, but ultimately it was a Lot of words and that would perhaps be more appropriate for a post of my own (in sum: while the fears of mortals when it comes to the gods are definitely understandable, they frequently seem to discount their own agency within that relationship, and the major breakdowns in relations between gods and mortals pretty much always happen because mortals try to take some measure of preventative violence rather than any sort of diplomacy, and the gods, also understandably, don’t want to die). But like I said, lot of words involved in a very complicated, subjective topic, and I don’t want to keep spamming you with essays.

So just to conclude a response to the original post and the additional thoughts on it, the gods are flawed and so are mortals, and that’s one thing this campaign has done very well. I think a lot of people who have issues with C3 when it comes to the gods would have liked it a lot more if those good bits had been represented better in the party that’s having to grapple with them and the way the story was set up and delivered, because between Bells Hells antipathy toward the gods (not even a more obvious dislike, this party just does not seem to have much stake in this primary thematic conflict at all) and Matt’s continued vagueness about Predathos and what exactly it will mean for Exandria if it’s unleashed, it makes it hard to embrace this conflict as legitimate when the gods, in spite of all their flaws, seem like a better and wiser solution than taking a massive, blind leap of faith that could very well mean the end of Exandria if they’re wrong (again, coming from a group that didn’t seem to have two thoughts to spare about the gods until it became clear that it was a central issue of the campaign). Among C3-critiquer circles, that’s generally the vibe I’ve gotten from others, rather than being displeased that the gods are being portrayed as less than perfect.

when i think about the criticism that C3's god's plot doesn't work because there was no indication the gods were worth questioning in previous campaigns, i think about-well, first i think about the fact that this isn't true. criticism of the Matron's actions with Vax exist within the text of C1 itself, and even then Ioun suggests that the best course of actions for the gods might be leaving Exandria to the mortals. we learn of what happened in Aeor in C2. we spend quite a bit of time there!

i also think about Matt saying during his fireside that considering Ludinus, his motivations and perspective, made him start to rethink his own opinion on the gods. and that Abubakar made him rethink things even more. imo he was right to follow that instinct, but it's no surprise that part of the audience didn't follow in turn and are now frustrated at where we've ended up. i remember when we were introduced to Hearthdell, and the angel of the Dawnfather showed up, and how a few people went beyond being upset at the Hells in-story to taking umbrage with Matt for the scenario he set up, for what it might have said about the Dawnfather. i mean shit, the angel appearing filled me with a sense of dread too!, even if only because it made it clear that the Hells didn't have real allies on either side of this fight.

it's been almost 10 years. longer, even, when you include the Exandria that existed prior to CR. of course an artist, and his opinion on the world he created, is going to change in that timespan. not even just Matt, but much of the cast as well! in TLOVM they've started to go back and more overtly set the stage for C3's themes and story in a way they can't with the actual C1. that's all part of the beauty of telling a story for so long and in so many forms.

admittedly for me it's a little like idk, i am now the fan being serviced, skill issue on y'all's part. but i do get that realizing something you loved so long is heading in a different direction than you are is a devastating experience. i don't think that's a good reason for it not to change though!

[the-big-nope]

Bells Hells are rolling absurdly well to travel through tunnels and investigate mushrooms, meanwhile above the tunnels in the Arx Creonum, the Mighty Nein are rolling absolute dogshit while they fight the Weave Mind (they will win anyway)

[the-big-nope]

I’m sorry but the people in this fandom desperate to cast Liliana as the “mother who tried her best but made some understandable mistakes,” in the face of everything that has actually happened in the story, have absolutely not been watching the same orb as me.

[the-big-nope]

I would push back on the idea of defending the gods as supporting the will of imperialist mass murderers in equal measure to supporting Ludinus, because if you're talking about the gods' followers then that issue should be taken up with them, and if you're talking about the gods themselves, they already largely addressed that issue by exiling themselves entirely from Exandria for the last thousand years in repentance for their actions and largely minding their own business and letting mortals determine their own fate (until Ludinus started fucking around at least). One could argue that maybe their exile was not punishment enough, but Ludinus still took it into his own hands to exact retribution at the cost of a compromise that, in terms of the power balance between gods and mortals, was working fairly well until he flipped the table, causing the suffering and deaths of hundreds if not thousands of people. The gods have done wrong, yes, but Ludinus is currently the active threat, and unlike the gods, he refuses to see any wrong in his actions and will not stop regardless of the harm he does.

That's why I personally find issue with the way the conflict of this campaign has been set up. If this campaign had been shortly post-Calamity, I would have been all for that messiness, but the gods have played nice for nearly a millennium. It was shown in Downfall that they left Exandria because they knew they had done wrong, and the Knowing Mistress explains in the final arc of C1 that the gods had accepted stepping back into the role of guides for those who sought them, and it was up to mortals to determine their destinies. They only started acting up again because Ludinus forced the situation. Bells Hells didn't seem to have any preestablished beef with the gods beyond vague antipathy either, so this isn't personal to them. I just don't buy into the urgency of the gods being some sort of problem it's important to deal with; have a conversation certainly, call them out for their wrongdoings, but when it comes to immediate threats to Exandria, Ludinus and Predathos seem far and away a worse issue.

That all being said, I hope this doesn't come off as aggressive. I just wanted to add some nuance from those of us that don't really vibe with how this story was laid out. I do agree with you on some things, like what you said about Matt kind of giving mixed messages. Like, on the one hand it seems like the absorb Predathos plan is genuinely on the table, but all that's been implied from history and Orym's vision from the Wildmother portrays something monumentally powerful and terrifying, so what logical person would take that risk? And I do wish I could enjoy the main conflict for what it is, but the way it was set up overweights the threat onto Predathos and the Ruby Vanguard's side, so if it was the intention to present the Vanguard and the gods as on equal narrative footing, it unfortunately didn't stick that landing. I hope that the coming episodes provide some revelations that help clarify the situation, but I think the story would have been better served if they had come sooner.

when i think about the criticism that C3's god's plot doesn't work because there was no indication the gods were worth questioning in previous campaigns, i think about-well, first i think about the fact that this isn't true. criticism of the Matron's actions with Vax exist within the text of C1 itself, and even then Ioun suggests that the best course of actions for the gods might be leaving Exandria to the mortals. we learn of what happened in Aeor in C2. we spend quite a bit of time there!

i also think about Matt saying during his fireside that considering Ludinus, his motivations and perspective, made him start to rethink his own opinion on the gods. and that Abubakar made him rethink things even more. imo he was right to follow that instinct, but it's no surprise that part of the audience didn't follow in turn and are now frustrated at where we've ended up. i remember when we were introduced to Hearthdell, and the angel of the Dawnfather showed up, and how a few people went beyond being upset at the Hells in-story to taking umbrage with Matt for the scenario he set up, for what it might have said about the Dawnfather. i mean shit, the angel appearing filled me with a sense of dread too!, even if only because it made it clear that the Hells didn't have real allies on either side of this fight.

it's been almost 10 years. longer, even, when you include the Exandria that existed prior to CR. of course an artist, and his opinion on the world he created, is going to change in that timespan. not even just Matt, but much of the cast as well! in TLOVM they've started to go back and more overtly set the stage for C3's themes and story in a way they can't with the actual C1. that's all part of the beauty of telling a story for so long and in so many forms.

admittedly for me it's a little like idk, i am now the fan being serviced, skill issue on y'all's part. but i do get that realizing something you loved so long is heading in a different direction than you are is a devastating experience. i don't think that's a good reason for it not to change though!

[the-big-nope]

See my issue is, it’s not that the gods are flawed or people being angry at them that’s the issue (the stuff that’s been revealed about the pantheon has been wonderfully juicy and HAS been hinted at in the previous campaigns), it’s that in-universe the question of what’s to be done about it is tangled up in the Predathos issue and the machinations of an imperialist, mass murdering wizard. It’s one thing to have a reckoning about the gods and their actions, and another to present “Well, what if we busted an elder evil of all-consuming hunger out of the moon about it, which is what the evil wizard that has committed mass murder was planning to do anyway” as the primary solution. So it’s no so much the new nuance of the situation that’s irritating, it’s that the characters just seem to be going about it in a stupid way.

when i think about the criticism that C3's god's plot doesn't work because there was no indication the gods were worth questioning in previous campaigns, i think about-well, first i think about the fact that this isn't true. criticism of the Matron's actions with Vax exist within the text of C1 itself, and even then Ioun suggests that the best course of actions for the gods might be leaving Exandria to the mortals. we learn of what happened in Aeor in C2. we spend quite a bit of time there!

i also think about Matt saying during his fireside that considering Ludinus, his motivations and perspective, made him start to rethink his own opinion on the gods. and that Abubakar made him rethink things even more. imo he was right to follow that instinct, but it's no surprise that part of the audience didn't follow in turn and are now frustrated at where we've ended up. i remember when we were introduced to Hearthdell, and the angel of the Dawnfather showed up, and how a few people went beyond being upset at the Hells in-story to taking umbrage with Matt for the scenario he set up, for what it might have said about the Dawnfather. i mean shit, the angel appearing filled me with a sense of dread too!, even if only because it made it clear that the Hells didn't have real allies on either side of this fight.

it's been almost 10 years. longer, even, when you include the Exandria that existed prior to CR. of course an artist, and his opinion on the world he created, is going to change in that timespan. not even just Matt, but much of the cast as well! in TLOVM they've started to go back and more overtly set the stage for C3's themes and story in a way they can't with the actual C1. that's all part of the beauty of telling a story for so long and in so many forms.

admittedly for me it's a little like idk, i am now the fan being serviced, skill issue on y'all's part. but i do get that realizing something you loved so long is heading in a different direction than you are is a devastating experience. i don't think that's a good reason for it not to change though!

[the-big-nope]

T I M E S T O P

[the-big-nope]

caleb widogast is the most wizard ever.

cast Time Stop.

rolled max turns.

delayed fireballed + regular fireballed some bitches.

cast mirror image.

none of his mirrors worked.

took a shit ton of damage and barely stayed up.

killed the Weave Mind.

[the-big-nope]

The M9 battling the Weave Mind:

[the-big-nope]

Not tagging this because it's not quite as widespread as other weird fandom opinions but it still annoys me personally, I question the media literacy of people who got their feathers ruffled by the Mighty Nein not going out of their way to mollycoddle Bells Hells, their precious porcelain babies, specifically claiming that the Nein were "guilt-tripping" Bells Hells over not having a solid plan when it comes to Predathos and more generally putting more animosity between the parties than there actually is.

1) C'mon, the Hells kinda have it coming. Yes, it's a big decision and it is true that they can't know 100% what will happen in the moment, but if you met up with someone who had been tasked with saving the world and they were like "Yeah, we're thinking we'll either seal Cthulu in his prison forever or maybe let him out, we're kinda running on vibes for the moment", don't TELL me you wouldn't Have Opinions about that.

2) Even if that weren't the case, the Mighty Nein still aren't guilt-tripping anyone by any metric. These guys just got it dropped into their lap at the last minute that these people are genuinely considering following through on Ludinus' plans (the archmage two of their members have been working to stop for nearly a decade now) and killing the gods (gods that some members of the Nein follow and hold dear and have helped them quite a lot). They would have been well within their rights to go "Um, no, I don't think you should do that," and WERE within their rights to ask clarifying questions about what exactly the Hells are trying to accomplish here, but the persistent advice the Nein have ultimately given, including from Caduceus the DEVOTED CLERIC, is to try doing what feels kind and true to their hearts in the moment.

3) There also seems to be a reading of the two parties' interactions wherein Bells Hells are annoyed by the Nein and don't consider any of their advice helpful while the Nein are completely dismissive of the Hells' capabilities and see them only as cannon fodder, which also seems like pure projection at the expense of canon to me. On Bells Hells' part, hard to believe they find the Nein annoying/unhelpful when they're making plans to meet up later if they all survive this final fight, when Braius seems to have come to a new peace within himself after his talks with Jester and Caduceus, when they're making sentimental toasts to the safety of both parties, when both Imogen and Dorian have thanked Caleb separately for his kindness and advice. And on the Nein's part, valid skepticism about the Hells' improv group approach to saving the world aside, actions speak louder than words. Caduceus, probably the most god-devoted among them, has left the choice in their hands with his only advice being to do what feels kind. Caleb explicitly placed his faith in Imogen, giving her a weapon to maybe help along the way. Even Beau, typically the most cynical and protective and after voicing her doubts to Fjord, said that if Bells Hells called, they'd come running. The Nein have almost always been prickly, posturing Mean Girls when introduced to new people (see: most of the guests in C2), but the back end of those interactions usually ended with some variation on "Welcome to the Mighty Nein." I don't see why Bells Hells should be an exception to that rule, main characters of the campaign or not.

I dunno man, you can have your party favoritism, that's fine, I just think you should probably base your cross-campaign complaints on issues that actually exist.

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See, my thing about people getting bent out of shape about Orym listening to the Imodna conversation is that they seem to automatically ascribe some suspicious intent to it when that’s not actually a confirmed thing at all. Orym could very well have just been hanging back and tuning into different parts of the collective conversation, and just happened to catch that bit. It’s like these people have never been at a party and just casually eavesdropped on conversations they’re not a part of. It’s not actually a part of the text that Orym was listening deliberately or out of suspicion, it occurred in that moment because Liam wanted to underscore a point in the narrative, and then Orym tuned out of the conversation before it was over. I don’t understand why people are so determined to read everything Orym does involving Imogen and Laudna specifically as hostile. My dude was just wallflower-ing it up and happened to be listening at a narratively poignant spot.

[the-big-nope]

Okay but. Lieve'tel seeing Bertrand's passing in her dreams. Lieve'tel carrying a silver bell he gave her on the end of her prayer beads. Lieve'tel, on the brink of war, wondering where Bertrand's soul has gone.

That disaster grandpa was loved. Good for him!!

[the-big-nope]

I’m not going to the Chicago live show, but I would like to put it out into the universe that this is the perfect chance to get that “one human and the rest are muppets” dynamic everyone keeps talking about.

[the-big-nope]

not to force the mutuals in my group chat to hear this again but i'm evenly split between "alright tlovm is starting to suck" and "oh boy two cakes!". if i can ignore the fact that i've watched 75% of campaign one i really enjoy tlovm. ouuuuutside of that i'm like holy shit it's lost so much...i need to go watch the campaign immediately...