#only as a transmasc it's weird doing this the other way

[velvetvexations]

weird how we reinvented girls go to college boys go to jupiter. trans women like ANALYSIS and CLEVER THINGS but silly trans boys only like WISH FULFILLMENT like. okay groundbreaking takes. do boys have cooties too?

Frankly you're being way too generous. All trans women are women and I'm not implying otherwise but that's exactly how cis men treat cis women and if any of them would like to stop doing that they can at anytime. It's 1:1 except even more blatantly bigoted because they will actually just add "and also I hate trans men, jokes about killing them are funny lol" to the end of their trashing of every last thing transmascs try to enjoy, people tearing apart Twilight and One Direction were slightly more reserved than that. And like, it's not because of male socialization, that's not a real thing in the TERF sense, but it IS because of resentment, and I don't really care if "a small minority of transfems are resentful of people AFAB" gets called transmisogynistic because again, they can stop doing this shit any time they want. They have the power to get over how obviously filled with bitterness they are that some people got to be AFAB and they didn't. They can just stop doing this whenever they like.

Like, fundamentally the issue is that they don't even really see trans men as men, just women who are mocking them and not letting them into the world's lamest music festival. And it's just insecurity. Other trans women don't have that problem because they're secure enough in their womanhood that the existence of people AFAB do not cause this irrational hostility. For all TRFs talk about "women you can treat as men," it's pretty obvious that's unironically how they view trans men. They're just taking out their gender-based frustration out on people who not only were given what they were denied but worse, had the audacity to waste it, and using "men oppress women and you're a man so you oppress me" as an excuse.

[genderqueerdykes]

Another weird thing about the TME/TMA thing is that the people who push it often believe that any suffering or bigotry we face for being transmasc is by nature lesser. When like I can list on and on the social alienation and violence we face and have faced myself as a transmasc person.

And also it doesn’t fucking matter what intent a bigot has behind their violence, if they’re pointing their violence at me I’m still a victim of that violence! I had a friend almost got attacked while walking down the street cause he’s a trans dude who was wearing drag. Like aw man sorry you got attacked by violent bigots, it seems however your labels don’t match up with that bigots intent. Guess what happened to u doesn’t mean anything!!!! What a weird concept.

i'm sorry you experience it as well. it sucks ass, i'm so tired of people trying to weigh transmasculine oppression vs. transfeminine oppression on a scale to see which one's heavier. like stop that, why are we trying to compare situations to see who has it worse? why are we telling people who are also oppressed that their struggle is "lesser"? what does that accomplish? all it does is hurt the person being downplayed. it doesn't uplift trans women to put other people down. that's not how this works.

i really don't fucking understand this current mindset of "person who has it The Worst gets to talk all the time forever for as long as they want and be as rude as they want and everyone who has it Less Bad has to shut the fuck up and sit with rapt attention and listen and never speak or comment or have an independent thought of their own on what they got lectured on." those people still have problems even if they're ""less"" bad, why do only certain groups of people get to talk about them? everyone in the queer community has problems, it doesn't matter the "severity," they all deserve to be discussed. and yet.

i'm really sorry that happened to your friend, holy shit. that is terrifying. but it happens. you're dead on the money. it doesn't matter what their intent is. they committed an act of violence. it does NOT matter what was going through the attacker's mind. they chose to commit an act of violence. sitting there on your petty ass high horse going "well akshually, i have a transfem friend who got attacked by TWO bigots and it was way worse so be grateful and shut up," isn't helping a goddamn soul. please stop shutting people up when they talk about their pain and trauma.

i don't know how else to tell every other transfem and trans woman on this website that we are not the only trans people who suffer. like i really need every single one of us to step down off the damn horse already and admit that we aren't the only fucking queers that suffer because we're not. we can't keep controlling the narrative like this. that's what we're doing at this stage. we are COMPLETELY controlling the narrative, making it ENTIRELY about us and our suffering and how we have it bad. we DO have it bad. but other people do, too. y'all GOTTA accept that other people suffer. y'all GOTTA accept that trans men are assaulted and killed every single day for being trans men. y'all GOTTA accept that most trans men don't and will never benefit from patriarchy. y'all GOTTA accept that transmascs and trans men have it really, really damn bad too.

i am honestly just so sick of the victim complex already. can we finally discuss how these currently emerging transfeminine and trans woman victim complexes are just out of fucking control at this point. i've wanted to talk about this forever and it's just getting worse right in front of my damn eyes. i've been in transfeminine spaces for a long time, but lately i just don't have a single desire to spend time in them. way too much arguing. way too much hostility. way too much anger directed at the wrong people. yes we are miserable, yes we suffer, yes we are heavily oppressed, yes we ARE very much victims. but so many transfems and trans women make that their entire ass personality and it's gotta stop.

womanhood isn't about being a victim. i don't know if i like the idea of making "woman" and "victim" synonymous. that's not empowering. that's not feminist. if you only see yourself as a victim, that's what you'll be. you will never progress to being a survivor if you keep thinking like that. you can't turn being a victim into a personality. it's a state of being, but it's not an identity. you are relinquishing power when you voluntarily identify as a victim. you are surrendering your control voluntarily if you keep throwing your hands up in the air and giving up like this.

someone else talking about their suffering doesn't diminish ours. someone else talking about their pain is not somehow an attack on you. trans men and transmascs talking is not an attack on you or transfemininity or trans womanhood. trans men existing are not an attack on you! stop with the victim complex already! it's not empowering! not everything is an attack! the world sucks but not everything is an attack on trans women and transfems!!!

i don't fucking care how much it offends you that people other than you suffer, but they're not talking about their suffering to make you feel like yours is lesser.

so why are you doing it to them?

[convexicalcrow]

Scarvis was on stage again, and Cub was watching from backstage, entranced by her. She was a shapeshifter, that was the only way Cub could conceptualise it. She was whatever she wanted to be, and tonight it was a fae creature seducing the audience, with flowing robes and just enough revealing skin for Cub to know what she had in mind when he took her home later.

Other thoughts ran though his head, though. Thoughts he didn't often give credence to. Like what it would be like to be her, not just be with her. To be out there on stage, wearing gorgeous dresses, hearing them calling him she and her...

But, no, there was no way that was happening. He'd never look that good. Too hairy, too chubby, too... too ordinary-looking. He was a bear, and she was a star, and that was how it had to be.

"Hey, baby! She's really kiling it tonight hey?" Ren said quietly as he landed an arm around Cub's shoulders, breaking him out of his thoughts.

"Yeah, yeah, she really is. I-I helped her, with that dress. Helped her pick out the fabrics. Just wanted her to look pretty," Cub said, and he didn't like that his cheeks felt hot at the admission. His clothes - just jeans and a t-shirt - suddenly felt very uncomfortable and in a way he didn't like.

"Well, you definitely picked the right ones. I think I'll have trouble getting her off stage tonight, I don't think she wants to stop!" Ren said with a laugh.

Cub smiled. "I don't think she does either."

Ren pulled away from him then, and Cub shifted back a little more into the shadows, just to make sure he wasn't visible from the floor. He'd never admitted to being the one to make all her clothes, and she always said it was simply a team effort, as if he was simply moral support. Which he was! He'd just asked her not to bring it up, because it was embarrassing. He didn't want it getting out. His job was stressful enough without his colleagues knowing he was involved in this scene.

In some ways, he shouldn't have come tonight anyway. He had several research papers he needed to get through before a meeting tomorrow, but she wanted him to see her show off all his hard work, and she did look amazing in the dress to be fair. So he'd come along, and okay, maybe it was worth it, just a little bit.

He moved forward a little as she finally made her way backstage after several farewells. She grabbed him and pulled him into her arms, holding him close.

"You made that magic, Cubby, thank you," Scarvis murmured in her male voice.

Perhaps in other circumstances, it would be strange, but now, pressed against her chest, for Cub, it was a comfort, at least for a moment. She pulled away and grabbed his hand, dragging him backstage to the dressing rooms.

"Come on, darling! Do keep up! I've got another three costume changes to do!" Scarvis laughed.

"Alright, I'm coming, I'm coming," Cub said with a laugh, happy to be tagging along behind her.

And once she'd changed again, maybe Cub stayed back a little, just for a moment, wondering what it would be like to be her. To have her own dresses and-

No. Absolutely not. He pushed those thoughts aside as he put the dress away, carefully hanging it back in its bag as he tidied up some of the makeup she no longer needed. Perhaps no one noticed that he never looked at the mirror. Perhaps no one noticed the careful way he handled her clothes. Perhaps no one noticed the yearning in his eyes, because he was blind to it as well. Perhaps no one noticed the way he yanked a little at his shirt as he returned to the wings to watch. They wouldn't know how it gnawed at him. Maybe he had suddenly grown sick of the texture. Yeah. Maybe that was it.

[lovelyrotter]

can ppl in this fandom like... stop... implying that transmasculinity in hcs or (especially) canon is shallow or misogynistic or even transmisogynistic on princible, like literally just by being prescent in someones mind or in the text. like that doesnt fuckin feel good. thats kind of really nasty to imply. if its not okay to say about other trans experiences, maybe dont say it about this one either. why is there a weird little exception here. yall KNOW how much that sucks to hear all day every day. what the fuck

[butch-bakugo]

Its not a shock to me that most "transandrophobia doesn't exist" people are trans women, mostly white trans women. They have a very specific image of what a trans man looks like and it's only two categories: the hyper fem, tits out, make up, twink trans man who doesn't pass nor try to and the hyper masculine, bearded, t'd up, all the surgeries, big buff trans man who you could never clock. They genuinely think every "transandrophobia truther" is lieing about not getting privileges they don't fucking have.

They genuinely believe every trans man passes and therefore we get male privilege and they get backed up by trans men who do pass and think a cis man making rape jokes with them and asking about their lift set is male privilege. Lemme shatter the illusion because as much as you like to scream about some wide spread privilege that doesn't exist, most trans people, in general, do not pass. This is especially true for trans men due to the hyperfocus society puts on feminine features. I have never met a fully passing trans man and I've met over a hundred personally irl. never. I know they exist but the fact y'all think we, en masse, get male privilege is factually just fucking wrong.

Trans men are not more acceptable or palatable to transphobes. Trans men are not more likely to pass. Trans men in mass do not get male privilege by virtue of our lack of passing and our medical history. Most trans men are still affected by the gender pay gap and thus can not afford surgeries.

You do not acknowledge the existence of non-passing trans men, only uphold the voices of trans men who pass and have the money for surgeries (a small percentage) then wonder why trans men laugh in your face when you make claims about male privilege we do not experience.

We are more likely to be conversionally raped than you. We are more like to be forcibly detransioned than you. We are more likely to experience domestic violence than you. We are more likely to experience hate crimes than you.

Trans men's hyper visibility in online spaces dose not transfer to real life visibility. You are more likely to see white cis gay men and white trans women in any media or ever mentioned than even white cis lesbians or white trans men. Your rhetoric is the origin of the "theyfab" myth. Our issues are invisible to you cause you do not care about other trans people besides yourself and other transfems. Everyone and their trans mother knows about transmysogny and the issues you personally face yet you expect trans men to be silent about their issues and feel like they should be silent because they are men. Trans men are more likely to experience litterally all forms of violence over trans women in every single avenue of violence that exists; religious, sexual, domestic, familial, etc. We are more likely to be stopped and abused before we socially transtion than anyone else due to hyper vigilance of society over afabs. You can scream all you'd like about how we only bring up our sex/the gender we are often raised as when it's convenient but you always ignore those often traumatizing experiences when it's convenient for you.

Many Transmascs and trans men had a traumatizing upbringing because society views us as "bad women" and " bad women" get treated so much worse and by many more angles than "bad men" specifically because we were forcibly assigned as women. You take advantage of a lack of nuance in the community by trying to group us with cis men specifically because you group yourself with cis women. News flash, neither of us and our experiences should be grouped with ANY cis group because we do not have cisgendered experiences.

I seriously think you think you are the most oppressed group in the trans community and you are not, not by a long shot. You are not the most oppressed group in the transgender community and that's a statistical fact. The most oppressed group, by far, are two spirits and cultural genders by virtue of them being inherently indigenous and indigenous people being the most oppressed race of people in the community regardless of the location they are indigenous to.

You are literally taking advantage of the things that were drilled into transmascs at a young age to be seen and not heard and to be quiet and let others talk, that they are lesser than everyone. Everyday there's a new story in the community of a cis man or a trans woman getting a trans man/masc pregnant to hurt them or force them off t or to detransion, this is not a fucking accident. You are not men, no one ever said you were, but you sure love to silence them like they do.

I'm not quiet, you do not intimately know our issues the same way we do not intimately know yours, You don't get to tell us what we do and don't experience and the fact you'd rather cry wolf and suspiciously call us "bitches" than hear us out, tells me everything i need to know. That alt right to trans woman pipeline you said you escaped? Yeah, you didn't. Ur just an alt right trans woman, Try Again.

[phagodyke]

in a hilarious turn of events my flatmate didn't even know I use any pronouns....

[gender-euphowrya]

y'all are so fucking stupid Disrespectfully

[medicasino]

ive just accepted im just never going to fit cleanly into any label or community ever

[diedinflorida]

i've been on t for more than half a decade and i have wide hips. testosterone did not change that and i like my hips, but when i wear clothes that aren't baggy i get stared at. i mostly pass but in public i experience a lot of the same things i did as a teenage girl, like dudes in cars slowing down to stare at my ass. the thing that changed over time was that nowadays they go by me and see my face and get angry or disgusted because oh no, that's a man, i just did something gay!!

the attention was shitty before and it's shitty now. being creeped on as a young girl fucking sucked and being creeped on as an adult man with a "feminine figure" fucking sucks. it's kind of weird to me how my experiences in the world have both dramatically changed and stayed largely the same. sometimes i feel like a perpetual teenager, because people won't stop treating me like a kid, but also a kid they can sexualize. the misogyny never went away, it just morphed into a different form because society doesn't like when girls become men.

i get stared at all the fucking time. my body is always someone elses' business. if i dare to wear clothes that don't hide my hips, the way i look becomes instantly morbidly fascinating to people. i can only imagine how it is for trans and intersex people of color, for people who are disabled, for people who have higher autistic support needs than i do, etc.. it's awful.

to my fellow t guys, transmascs, and anyone who feels it applicable, those of us who will always have wide hips or other "feminine" features that the world we live in takes issue with: i see you and your body isn't anyone's business but your own.

[grubloved]

my theory about this which is very constrained by my personal aka white experience is that one of the things that happens to u as a white baby girl and then as a young white woman is that bad things are happening to you, and everybody needs to convince you they arent happening (to make sure u are subjugated but still content enough to further the project of white supremacy). and also nothing you think or feel or want can be real or meaningful bc ur just a girl.

and so if ur going to be aware of ur own misery and oppression under patriarchy u have to like develop these repetitive cycles of validation of your own oppression and internal experience as Real and Valid. because everything is very invested in making you forget.

and then this cycle can continue when u transition: the overwhelming majority of bad reactions to transmasc people are based upon that previous reaction to girlness which is to infantilize u and dismiss you and treat u like u arent real. and so as a continued reaction to this many tmasc people become singlemindedly focused upon Realness and Validity. Realness becomes the Only Real Problem, the one Great Wound to be healed.

which to my tfem friends can explain a lot abt the weird way tmasc heavy spaces talk about gender: its a lot of reassuring yourself and others that you're Valid. that youre Real and Valid. youre So Valid. which for most of the tfem people in my life has been kind of bewildering because the truth is if ur tma nobody needs to tell you what youre doing is real because immediately people start doing transmisogyny at you.

[mr-ribbit]

something fascinating to me about egg discourse is how often tme people Also joke about or question their friends potential to be trans, and it's literally never talked about like this.

my cis and tme nb friends routinely joke about celebrities or characters that have big "nonbinary energy" or who otherwise exhibit behavior we would associate with ourselves. i have tme friends and acquaintances who have approached me or my wife and straightforwardly said "something seems trans about you, have I asked for your pronouns recently?"

similar friends have even talked about other still-cis friends in our circle this way, or joked about "when are you going to transition like the rest of us?" or "yeah cis people are a minority in this group, just give it time" or "no wonder you have queer friends with how comfortable with being gnc you are" or etc etc examples like that

even the actual examples of people in my life that I can think of as being the most "invasive" or presumptive about gender have been tme people:

it was my cishet friends who outed me and my wife as trans to everyone at their wedding, including their boomer parents and hundreds of strangers, and called it "the most queer wedding party ever"

it was my tme nb friend who kept saying they could "always tell" her transfem cousin was trans before she came out, and then proceeded to randomly give us extremely personal details about her bottom surgery

it was my transmasc friend who refused to call me and my wife anything other than "little enby beans" after we met and introduced us with our full genders+sexuality labels to every single person one by one at a party

it was my transmasc nb friend who kept insisting my wife could "still be nonbinary" when she was first considering identifying as a trans woman instead, and it was THAT idea that actually slowed her down from making changes to her life that she wanted

it was my cis friends who approached me arm and arm and cornered my outside of a bathroom at a party right after I took a piss to suddenly ask me what my pronouns were because they "heard something" at the party

like, transfems deserve robust support against this trash so a lot of our defensive discourse has ofc been about how it IS okay for transfems to talk about eggs and be jokey about it and non-invasively approach others about being trans

but i swear to god none of these weird people have even stopped to make their discourse ABOUT anyone BUT transfems. it's so clearly targeted!!

no one has EVER approached *me* as a tme nb person and suggested i was pressuring gnc people with my egg jokes. never. nothing even remotely similar. i joke about other people being trans all the time and no one has ever treated me the way you all are treating transfems over this issue.

important note: my examples are all things I recall as being invasive and awkward, and I'm sharing them to make a point about how often rude behavior comes from the same tme people pointing fingers over this. but I still don't think any of them are worth the crucifixion people are treating transfem egg discourse with.

even when my friends were weird to me in the above examples, my reaction was either to confront them about it as friends who I trust to be able to communicate with, or to cut those individuals off after they proved not worth a relationship in the long run. at no time did I desire to make a call-out post or spread rumors about them or publicly declare all of their gender as a screeching menace to society.

my point here is that even when I do think about moments where others crossed a line, acting like this is a "issue trans women have" is blatantly transmisogynistic garbage that only exists to serve the woman-hating machine at the heart of our society. fucking cut it out

[genderqueerdykes]

The whole "transandrophobia debate" is so tiring. I've been here long enough to have seen people not just say the same exact shit about aromantic and ace people, or even bi people, but transmen and mascs themselves. Like, not only have we figuratively been here, with people using the exact same talking points against aros, aces, bis, nonbinary people, literally just people using neopronouns, etc. etc. but we've also LITERALLY been here before.

It's especially frustrating because it was only a few years back that conversations finally opened up to address the damage people like Calvin Garrah and Blair White have done internally to the trans community; and now we get to log onto tumblr-dot-com and watch people get called "whiny afab trans people" and "they-fab" AGAIN.

I'm just so tired of people who do not know queer history, especially not the shit that has happened on this website alone in the past 15 years, picking a new letter of the acronym that is acceptable to bully, walking into the tags that group made for themselves to discuss their own issues, and telling them they're wrong and disgusting for "taking up space" in the queer community.

huge round of applause for this ask, seriously. thank you so fucking much. thank you for taking the time to write this up and send it. i hope you're having a wonderful day. sorry for the long ass text dump, but you brought up so many good points that i want to touch on

Like, not only have we figuratively been here, with people using the exact same talking points against aros, aces, bis, nonbinary people, literally just people using neopronouns, etc. etc. but we've also LITERALLY been here before.

EXACTLY this. it's literally the exact. same. bullshit. that people have pulled in the past. i cannot stress enough about how the anti transmasc rhetoric right now is exactly like the anti ace and anti aro bullshit we had going on 5 - 10 years ago. it was seriously bad and it's the exact same as this is now. people were so obsessed with hating aromantics and asexuals in the exact same fashion. nearly every other post had aros or aces as the butt of the joke. people were just constantly making posts making fun of sex repulsed aces. telling us that we're "not really queer" and that we're just "taking up space and resources". it was literally the NORM to bully aromantic and ace people on here for YEARS. it was like EVERYONE had a shitty opinion about aromanticism and asexuality and they NEEDED you to hear it. it was relentless. it was inescapable. it's still happening, but it used to be even worse because people were just obsessed with waking up and mocking aros and aces on this hellsite.

and now people are doing the exact. same. thing. to trans men and transmascs. the new punching bag has been chosen and its transmascs and men. and people will do ANYTHING to make them the butt of the joke, no matter WHAT the conversation is. tiktoks and instagram reels and twitter and tumblr posts talking about how people gladly misgender transmascs and tell them they're "confused girls" and "delusional tomboys". i cannot stress that it is the exact same intensity and level of hostility as what you pointed out. it's the same. it's not to say that this didn't happen before.

like anon pointed out, people were treating trans men and mascs like shit back THEN too. back then, they were getting mocked for being "uwu soft deer prince boys" and white boys with fluffy hair and shit like that. they were getting told that T would make them aggressive and ugly and that they'd instantly go bald. people would literally torment guys who wanted to take T. people were so mean about T back then, not like it's gotten any better. people would yell at transmascs and go "TESTOSTERONE WON'T MAKE YOU INTO AN ANIME TWINK!!!!" and other weird ass shit. people were still treating trans men and mascs this way 10 years ago, it's just gotten worse and worse and worse.

honestly i'm SO sick of people calling AFAB people "whiny". i'm SO sick of it. i'm intersex, i'm not AFAB, and I'M tired of seeing people treat each other like this. it's not cool to hate on AFAB people! it's not cool to make fun of AFAB trans people! it's not cool to refuse to say trans man and say "AFAB trans person" instead! it's not cool to be an asshole!!!!!!!!!!! i'm gonna say it:

if you perceive an AFAB trans person or """"THEY-FAB""" talking about their issues in a serious manner as "whining," you are being misogynistic as fuck. if you think that people assigned female at birth are inherently whiny literally just for TALKING, you are being misogynistic as HELL. the fact that word that these people default to is "whiny" speaks a lot. like that specific word is crucial because it tells you literally every single thing they think about AFAB people. it's so misogynistic it makes me literally see red. they are stuck on the fact that that person is AFAB, and because that involves the concept of "female", it means that that person is inherently whiny, stupid, and annoying. this is sexism. this is misogyny. it's NOT progressive, and it becomes transandrophobia really quickly! which is a real thing that you need to care about!

if you've lived a transmasculine or trans man life, you know that transandrophobia is real. that's why i've never understood the "Transandrophobia isn't real" thing because. if it's mostly trans women and transfemmes who aren't also trans men telling you that transandrophobia isn't real... how the hell would they even know that? like ask yourself how the hell would a transfeminine trans woman know what it's like to live as a trans man? it's not comparable to when that woman was a cis man. cis manhood and trans manhood are not the same thing at all in terms of how we're treated societally. you can't compare the way cis men are treated to the way trans men are treated, they're not the same.

if they're not transmasculine, and they're not a trans man... how the hell would they know how people treat transmascs and trans men? i mean seriously think about it. why would you listen to someone other than a trans man about the experiences trans men face. what the hell? like seriously why are we encouraging trans women and transfemmes to talk about the transmasculine experience if they haven't lived it? why are we encouraging trans women and femmes to TALK OVER trans men and mascs? why are we encouraging trans women and transfemmes to speak as experts on a life they literally do not lead? why are we encouraging people who literally don't know what it's like to talk about the experience like they live it every day? this makes no fucking sense.

nobody encourages you to listen to trans men talking about trans women and their experiences and life like they've been there personally. nobody encourages you to listen to trans men explain OTHER PEOPLE'S struggles and identities FOR them. i don't like that we've created a narrative where AMAB trans women and transfemmes are the only ones who are "right" about things and thus the only ones we should listen to, and the only ones who have the right to talk. trans women and transfemmes have so much to offer our community, and we do need to listen. we do need to care about our transfeminine sisters. we do need to listen to what it's like to be a trans woman. trans women and transfemmes can be wildly intelligent, insightful, caring, compassionate and wonderful people, and can know and learn a lot about life, but that doesn't mean that we know every single experience out there firsthand. i don't like the idea that people think that trans women and transfemmes know EVERYTHING about queerness and should be your ONLY resource on it.

i don't like that. it creates an echo chamber.

why can't we let trans men, transmascs, and AFAB trans people speak for themselves? like seriously: why? what's the reason? literally what is the reason because i can't find it. there's literally no good reason to tell someone to shut up just because they're AFAB. have we forgotten the concepts of sexism and bioessentialism?

imagine if people went around saying "whiny they-mabs".

imagine if people were on here saying "whiny AMAB trans people".

the queer community seems to go through cycles where people pick a handful of identities to use as a punching bag and a scapegoat. that's all this is. people want to scapegoat trans men, transmascs, and AFAB trans people into being the "bad actors" that they can blame for all of their problems and "everything that's wrong with the queer community". they want to blame all of their problems on us because facing their problems head on is hard and scary. they want to blame us for everything wrong in the community instead of lifting a finger to improve it. they want to make trans men look like evil, shitty assholes to try to make trans women look better by proxy and it just. isn't. working.

like, as a trans woman, i'm honestly just fucking over the "only listen to trans women/transfemmes" shit because it feels like virtue signalling and an attempt to suck up to us for brownie points. it's really not flattering at all. it's honestly insulting. we're not the monolith of the queer community. we are manipulated, abused, and oppressed, but that doesn't mean you have to shut other people up when they talk about their own oppression. i have to be real with you, so much of this behavior just comes across as people parroting something just so they can be accepted into a group, to belong somewhere. it feels like a lot of insecure people who just want a pat on the back for saying something easy. it feels like people genuinely don't give a shit about what we have to say and are more concerned with showing off "how much they care" about our struggles. you know... virtue signalling. it feels disingenuous and like it's being done for display purposes only.

it also seems like a lot of people just join the queer community because they view it as the Catty Petty Bitch Drama Community. like some people latch on to that really bitchy catty sassy gay man stereotype and think that's all there is to queerness. they think all it is is bullying other people and telling them what to do and being mean for how they dress, act, present and feel. they want someone to bully. they want someone they perceive as weaker than them to harass. they want to join the community so they can pick a "team" to fight against all the other "teams". people want to turn it into an us vs. them within the community itself, and i have no fucking idea why.

if you are frustrated with cisheteronormative society and how it treats you, don't punch laterally. don't punch down on someone who's on your own team. you don't need to hurt other queer people, we aren't the ones who hurt you. you'll feel like an empty husk for the rest of your life if all you do is chase catharsis, as it is fleeting, not fulfilling.

[nothorses]

a transmasc only discord server is kind of fucking weird tbh. you call transfems seperationists for voicing their unique oppressions and then get pissy and make a server where you can just circle jerk and pat each other on the back, never questioning your transmisogyny? i think people can see who the true “seperationists” are.

About a year ago the queer black woman leading the organization we were working to start asked me and the other white people working with her to lead an affinity group that white families joining the org would be required to participate in, and which would read and discuss anti-racist/anti-white supremacist literature together, as a way of protecting space for black & brown staff, families, and program participants.

She stressed that it was important for this to be specific to white people, and explained that she wanted to start a parallel one for people of color involved in the org, because those conversations are really different between those groups. Importantly, the kind of honesty and vulnerability required to effectively unpack white supremacy culture is, well, generally not safe (or often possible) for people of color to embody in a space where white people are unpacking their own white supremacist ways of thinking and acting- even if they're doing it in an explicitly anti-racist context.

This is derived from the idea of "affinity groups", often specifically "identity affinity groups", which are commonly used in activist spaces and workplaces seeking to dismantle oppressive systems and culture from within. The idea is that creating spaces specific to identities allows for conversations about personal experiences with oppression that would be difficult to hold otherwise; both for those who have been harmed, and those who have done harm. It's not an end-all be-all kind of tool, but it can definitely be helpful.

In the context of marginalized identities, these kinds of spaces can also be a really great way of facilitating community-building, especially where there is a capacity for establishing positive cultural norms in the process (like not tolerating certain kinds of bigotry, especially if you also make space to express, challenge, and unpack bigoted ideas).

Transmascs, as a group, historically struggle to connect with community. Invisibility coupled with the isolating nature of queerness (as a marginalized identity that emerges later in life, and generally not through genetics), and in particular the way transness tends to funnel into a desire to "pass" & further isolates folks by preventing them from even identifying one another, contributes to this naturally. There's also a phenomena in which feminist and queer community spaces tend to be hostile towards anyone they perceive as "masculine", and therefore threatening. This includes transmascs (esp. those who are or have transitioned) and transfems (esp. those who are pre-transition/non-transitioning or butch), along with plenty of other groups (black people especially).

Thus, a transmasc-specific server serves a few purposes:

It acts as a space for transmascs to discuss our unique experiences with lessened anxiety around accidentally phrasing something in a way that does harm to others in the space

It acts as a space for transmascs to challenge one another on bigoted or harmful ideas, which may be better received coming from someone who shares some of those personal experiences- and is often easier given from a person who is not personally hurt by what was said/done.

It acts as a space for transmascs to build community with other transmascs

It establishes positive community norms early in that process, which often carry outside of that space and into others.

Among lots of other things!

Identity affinity groups aren't the end-all be-all; it's important for folks to interact, connect, and build community with people from a diversity of backgrounds, experiences, and perspectives. That's how we grow, and it's part of how we make sure the ideas we have about the world include and account for everyone.

Trans experiences have been absent from a huge portion of feminist theory; earlier theory especially. That- and the exclusion of black & brown experiences- is how we got radfeminism. Also known as second wave feminism, which preceded the inclusion of intersectionality that defined the third wave.

Transmasc experiences have been absent from a huge portion of trans theory; this isn't a conspiracy or anything, it's something Julia Serano acknowledges in the opening pages of Whipping Girl (even though she also goes on to make assumptions about experiences not her own anyway).

My opinion is that community-building is an essential step in promoting the inclusion of transmasc perspectives on a larger scale: it gives transmascs a space to identify patterns in their experiences. We can then take our observations into diverse communities, where we can identify similarities and differences in how others are treated, learn from one another, and cultivate a more complete understanding of oppression across all demographics.

Your ask makes me think you're not really interested in all of this- and you were instead just looking to make me feel or look bad (or perhaps just make yourself feel good)- but maybe I'm wrong! I would love to be wrong. Or maybe someone else will learn from this instead.

[ugly-anarchist]

While yes intersex people can use intersex as their gender identity, that isn't what intersex is. Intersex is a natural biological variation that cannot be transitioned into or out of. It is a description of the natural state of our bodies. It is the same as me being autistic, white, and short. These are descriptions of things about me that I cannot change but are still important facets of my life as a human being. (Obviously some are more important than others)

(While the body can be changed, there are separate words for someone who willingly changes the natural state of their body, like altersex. Intersex people can also be altersex.)

On the other hand, gender identity and transness are personal identifiers that can be chosen. (And by chosen I mean that while you can't choose your gender you can choose the label you use for it) And it is also fluid and can change over time. Gender looks different for everyone and isn't based on any material thing that can be observed in the physical world. Gender is based more-so in what makes you happiest, and the most satisfied with your life. Gender is just as real as everything else I've mentioned, but it's just not a physical thing.

This is why transness is self determined and intersexuality is not.

Trans and cis are adjectives that describe a person's experience with their gender. A trans man/woman is just a man/woman who has a different experience with their gender than cis people do.

But if a person exists who is rejected by both cis and trans people, then what are they? What are they supposed to do? How are they supposed to identify? Cis and trans as labels were not designed with intersex people in mind and often do not fit our experiences, but we're forced to use this binary because perisex trans people insist that you must be one if you're not the other.

But, trans people also insist that being intersex is inherently trans. Any deviation from the sex binary is seen as trans. Intersex history is seen as trans history, intersex animals are called biologically trans, and intersex experiences and terms are often taken by trans people and applied to themselves.

We're inherently trans but the trans experience is inherently a perisex one. Our experiences are identical to trans experiences but only trans people are allowed to say that. Our bodies are deemed the ideal trans bodies but the natural state of our bodies is used as proof that we don't fit in with trans people. Trans people wish they could gain access to the violence done to our bodies. Our bodies are held up as proof that gender and sex is a spectrum but if we talk about our complicated experiences with sex and gender then we're called terf psyops and cis invaders.

Where exactly are intersex people supposed to fit into the trans/cis binary? Our experiences cannot be defined in the same way that perisex trans people define themselves.

When an intersex person identifies as transfem when they were afab or as transmasc while they were amab or calls themselves cistrans or transmascfem or transfemmasc, this isn't an attempt to invade spaces we don't belong or destroy the trans community. We're trying to describe our very complicated experiences with gender with the limited tools that we have, the tools that have been forced on us but simultaneously denied to us.

Can we just let intersex trans people have their weird gender labels in peace? This isn't about you, it's not an attack on you or your community, it's just us trying to exist comfortably.

[doberbutts]

(Different anon here.) I'm intersex and I DESPISE the TMA/TME terms. Transmisogyny and transandrophobia are both useful terms, but neither is "worse," and neither is somehow exclusive. I know trans women who get mistaken for trans men, I know trans men who get mistaken for trans women, I know nonbinary people who get mistaken for both, I know other intersex people who get mistaken for whatever pisses people off the most in that moment.

I get called both a dyke and a faggot from car windows, despite being neither WLW or MLM. I get called a tranny every couple of days, despite the fact that I identify as intersex, NOT transgender!

Nobody CARES what my actual identity is, they just know I've got a body that doesn't "look right," so I'm fair game to harass and abuse. Do I get to call myself TMA despite not being a trans woman? Am I somehow TME despite the fact that I experience what is objectively transmisogyny? I'm not a trans man, I'm not a trans woman, I'm not transmasc, I'm not transfemme--I'm intersex!

Watching perisex trans people play these weird pissing contest games where they try to decide who's most oppressed, while all of them are throwing intersex people under the bus...ugh. Perisex people, do better. Why are trans spaces so fixated on preserving the fucking sex binary?

Out of all of the asks I got, that's pretty close to my frustration with the whole thing honestly. Perhaps because I also am intersex and thus my experience is a bit different than others as well, but I've always been really aware of what lines I have to toe in order to not get hatecrimed in broad daylight. The lines were recently redrawn due to my transition but the learning process has been... rough... as things that I used to have to do are now things that actively create danger for me, and visa versa.

I have another ask in my inbox about the binary thing and I mentioned it when I first joined this discussion about how not every trans person easily fits into "trans fem" and trans masc" and I'm wondering not only what this arguing thinks of trans neutrals and multigender people but also how left out they must feel in this entire thing. Forcibly assigned one way or the other despite fighting to not have to deal with that, or altogether erased and silenced from the discussion.

In my refusal to allow trans men to be erased from conversations that affect them, I need to be careful not to erase mascs, neutrals, and more. I'm not always the best at it, but I think it is important that the effort is there.

[spiderfreedom]

I honestly owe detrans people, and especially detrans women, so much, because reading about their experiences has taught me a lot about... well, everything? About myself and my own trauma re: femaleness, autism. About the factors that lead people to transition. About resilience and moving forward and making a life for yourself in a world where there's no space for you.

Some of my favorite writings from detrans people:

somenuancepls (Michelle Alava, active on substack) has multiple great posts, especially on resilience and growth for detrans people. I recommend "Actually I was just crazy the whole time" (on the mindset that leads medical transition to be viewed as a panacea), "We Shouldn't Have to Be Here" (on how detrans people are expected to act as martyrs) and "Let's Talk About How We Talk About Detransition" (on how to ethically and compassionately talk about transition and detransition without harming (de)/transitioners).

destroyyourbinder (no longer active) has so many amazing posts that I really can't list them all, but "Unriddling the Sphinx: Autism and the Magnetism of Gender Transition" was genuinely revelatory for me as a gender non-conforming autistic woman. (It also kinda sent me spiraling for a few days so if you are also an autistic gnc, read with caution)

funkypsyche has been writing a lot about 'woke' culture in a way I don't agree with, but "The Archetypal FTM Sensitive, Quirky, Artistic Weird Girls" (on the type of people attracted to transmasc identification and the ways society fails them - do you see also see yourself in this list?) is a good read. As a supplement, there is "The History of Tumblr: Gender and Woke Indoctrination, Video Essay", and if you can get through the parts about, well, 'woke indoctrination', it provides a perspective on tumblr and its relationship to mental illness and gender. You do not realize how much mental illness is normalized and glorified on tumblr until you see someone explaining it from the outside and you go "huh, I did not realize that happens and that I do that, too..."

Max Robinson wrote "Detransition: Beyond, Before, and After", the only academic text on detransition to my knowledge. An in depth view on factors influencing transition such as lesbophobia, and the relationship between gender dysphoria and body dysmorphia and how the latter is treated as frivolous and vain while the former is treated as profound and serious.

And there are a lot of tweets I've collected I can't really link here, there are many detransitioners on Twitter. I really do recommend reading a broad variety of detransitioned people, detrans women and men. Even read people who retrans like CrashChaosChats, who once wrote on detransition but then retransitioned after finding that she was unable to deal with dysphoria. If you actually care about dysphoric people, trans people, and detrans people, you need to read broadly to understand the full range of reasons people transition or detransition or retransition.

Feel free to reblog with your additions of writings by detrans people, or people you follow on Twitter or other social media if they don't have long-form content.