#nonbinary linguistics

[scary-flag]

A question to people whose native language is not English: how does your language deal with nonbinary people that use they/them in English? How did it work in OFMD?

Asking because in Polish there's absolutely no pronoun that can be used, as "they/them" is exclusively plural and either male ("oni") or female ("one") anyway. Polish, like most Slavic languages, is very gendered, to the point where there is barely any way to express something in a gender neutral way, as only the present tense and in some cases the future tense can be used that way.

For example if I'd want to say that "Jim was great in that episode" there is no gender neutral way to say that. I can say either that Jim was "świetny" (male) or "świetna" (female).

The only way that is gender neural is rodzaj nijaki (neuter), but it is a grammatical gender used to describe objects and non-humans, like "krzesło" (chair) or "zwierzę" (an animal). The only exclusion here is "dziecko" (a child). For obvious reasons it is not a preferred way to refer to nonbinary people and characters.

However, that leaves us with no way to address them or refer to them correctly, and the Polish nb community does not use any common pronoun as well - some people use the grammatical gender that matches their assigned at birth one, some switch between using female and male, some use neuter one or invent a neopronoun for themselves, like "onx" (sorry, no translation here, but works similarily to latinx). However, here is no set rule for media and fictional characters, because it is pretty much a personal thing.

Did any of you have any info on how did the translations into such languages deal with Jim's pronouns? Does your language have a better way of dealing with they/them characters?

I'm super curious about that :)

[rjalker]

some more nonbinary honorifics just because there should be more: Vr. / veyir.

"That's Mr./Ms. Surname over there" =

"That's Vr. Surname over there."

"Excuse me miss/ma'am/sir/mister, I just need to get past you quick" =

"Excuse me, veyir, I just need to get past you quick"

ect.

[perfectlyripeclementine]

calling my lover "mine" but not in the way that my toothbrush or notebook are mine, mine in the way my neighborhood is mine, and also everybody else's, "mine" like mine to tend to, mine to care for, mine to love. "mine" not like possession but devotion.

[haru-dipthong]

Gendered pronouns in Japanese vs English

In Revolutionary Girl Utena, the main character Utena is a girl (it says so in the title), but very conspicuously uses the masculine first person pronoun 僕 (boku) and dresses in (a variation of) the boys school uniform. Utena's gender, and gender in general, is a core theme of the work. And yet, I haven’t seen a single translation or analysis post where anyone considers using anything other than she/her for Utena when speaking of her in English. This made me wonder: how does one’s choice of pronouns in Japanese correspond to what one’s preferred pronouns would be in English?

There are 3 main differences between gendered pronouns in Japanese vs English

Japanese pronouns are used to refer to yourself (first-person), while English pronouns are used to refer to others (third-person)

The Japanese pronoun you use will differ based on context

Japanese pronouns signify more than just gender

Let’s look at each of these differences in turn and how these differences might lead to a seeming incongruity between one’s Japanese pronoun choice and one’s English pronoun choice (such as the 僕 (boku) vs she/her discrepancy with Utena).

Part 1: First-person vs third-person

While Japanese does technically have gendered third person pronouns （彼、彼女） they are used infrequently¹ and have much less cultural importance placed on them than English third person pronouns. Therefore, I would argue that the cultural equivalent of the gender-signifying third-person pronoun in English is the Japanese first-person pronoun. Much like English “pronouns in bio”, Japanese first-person pronoun choice is considered an expression of identity.

Japanese pronouns are used exclusively to refer to yourself, and therefore a speaker can change the pronoun they’re using for themself on a whim, sometimes mid-conversation, without it being much of an incident. Meanwhile in English, Marquis Bey argues that “Pronouns are like tiny vessels of verification that others are picking up what you are putting down” (2021). By having others use them and externally verify the internal truth of one’s gender, English pronouns, I believe, are seen as more truthful, less frivolous, than Japanese pronouns. They are seen as signifying an objective truth of the referent’s gender; if not objective then at least socially agreed-upon, while Japanese pronouns only signify how the subject feels at this particular moment — purely subjective.

Part 2: Context dependent pronoun use

Japanese speakers often don’t use just one pronoun. As you can see in the below chart, a young man using 俺 (ore) among friends might use 私 (watashi) or 自分 (jibun) when speaking to a teacher. This complicates the idea that these pronouns are gendered, because their gendering depends heavily on context. A man using 私 (watashi) to a teacher is gender-conforming, a man using 私 (watashi) while drinking with friends is gender-non-conforming. Again, this reinforces the relative instability of Japanese pronoun choice, and distances it from gender.

Part 3: Signifying more than gender

English pronouns signify little besides the gender of the antecedent. Because of this, pronouns in English have come to be a shorthand for expressing one’s own gender experience - they reflect an internal gendered truth. However, Japanese pronoun choice doesn’t reflect an “internal truth” of gender. It can signify multiple aspects of your self - gender, sexuality, personality.

For example, 僕 (boku) is used by gay men to communicate that they are bottoms, contrasted with the use of 俺 (ore) by tops. 僕 (boku) may also be used by softer, academic men and boys (in casual contexts - note that many men use 僕 (boku) in more formal contexts) as a personality signifier - maybe to communicate something as simplistic as “I’m not the kind of guy who’s into sports.” 俺 (ore) could be used by a butch lesbian who still strongly identifies as a woman, in order to signify sexuality and an assertive personality. 私 (watashi) may be used by people of all genders to convey professionalism. The list goes on.

I believe this is what’s happening with Utena - she is signifying her rebellion against traditional feminine gender roles with her use of 僕 (boku), but as part of this rebellion, she necessarily must still be a girl. Rather than saying “girls don’t use boku, so I’m not a girl”, her pronoun choice is saying “your conception of femininity is bullshit, girls can use boku too”.

Through translation, gendered assumptions need to be made, sometimes about real people. Remember that he/they, she/her, they/them are purely English linguistic constructs, and don’t correspond directly to one’s gender, just as they don’t correspond directly to the Japanese pronouns one might use. Imagine a scenario where you are translating a news story about a Japanese genderqueer person. The most ethical way to determine what pronouns they would prefer would be to get in contact with them and ask them, right? But what if they don’t speak English? Are you going to have to teach them English, and the nuances of English pronoun choice, before you can translate the piece? That would be ridiculous! It’s simply not a viable option². So you must make a gendered assumption based on all the factors - their Japanese pronoun use (context dependent!), their clothing, the way they present their body, their speech patterns, etc.

If translation is about rewriting the text as if it were originally in the target language, you must also rewrite the gender of those people and characters in the translation. The question you must ask yourself is: How does their gender presentation, which has been tailored to a Japanese-language understanding of gender, correspond to an equivalent English-language understanding of gender? This is an incredibly fraught decision, but nonetheless a necessary one. It’s an unsatisfying dilemma, and one that poignantly exposes the fickle, unstable, culture-dependent nature of gender.

Notes and References

¹ Usually in Japanese, speakers use the person’s name directly to address someone in second or third person

² And has colonialist undertones as a solution if you ask me - “You need to pick English pronouns! You ought to understand your gender through our language!”

Bey, Marquis— 2021 Re: [No Subject]—On Nonbinary Gender

Rose divider taken from this post

[lingthusiasm]

Episode 93: How nonbinary and binary people talk - Interview with Jacq Jones

There are many ways that people perform gender, from clothing and hairstyle to how we talk or carry ourselves. When doing linguistic analysis of one aspect, such as someone's voice, it's useful to also consider the fuller picture such as what they're wearing and who they're talking with.

In this episode, your host Gretchen McCulloch gets enthusiastic about how nonbinary people talk with Jacq Jones, who's a lecturer at Te Kunenga ki Pūrehuroa / Massey University in Auckland, New Zealand. We talk about their research on how nonbinary and binary people make choices about how to perform gender using their voices and other variables like clothing, and later collaborating with one of their research participants to reflect on how it feels to have your personal voice and gender expression plotted on a chart. We also talk about linguistic geography, Canadian and New Zealand Englishes, and the secret plurality of R sounds in English and how you can figure out which one you have by poking yourself (gently!) with a toothpick.

Click here for a link to this episode in your podcast player of choice or read the transcript here.

Announcements:

In this month’s bonus episode we get enthusiastic about three of our favourite kinds of linguistic mixups: spoonerisms, mondegreens, and eggcorns! We talk about William Spooner, the Oxford prof from the 1800s that many spoonerisms are (falsely) attributed to, Lauren's very Australian 90s picture book of spoonerisms, the Scottish song "The Bonny Earl of Moray" which gave rise to the term mondegreen, why there are so many more mondegreens in older pop songs and folk songs than there are now, and how eggcorn is a double eggcorn (a mis-parsing of acorn, which itself is an eggcorn of oak-corn for akern).

Join us on Patreon now to get access to this and 80+ other bonus episodes. You’ll also get access to the Lingthusiasm Discord server where you can chat with other language nerds about your favourite linguistic mixups.

Here are the links mentioned in the episode:

Jacq Jones' website

'Beyond a dot on a graph: A participant’s perspective on being quantified in variationist sociolinguistic research' presentation slides by Kaspar Middendorf and Jacq Jones

Lingthusiasm episode 'What visualizing our vowels tells us about who we are'

Lingthusiasm bonus episode 'How we made vowel plots with Bethany Gardner'

Lingthusiasm episode 'The linguistic map is not the linguistic territory' (linguistics and geography)

Lal Zimman's website

'The Female-to-Male Transsexual Voice: Physiology vs. Performance in Production' by Viktória Papp

'Voice and Communication Change for Gender Nonconforming Individuals: Giving Voice to the Person Inside' by Shelagh Davies, Viktória Papp, and Christella Antoni

You can listen to this episode via Lingthusiasm.com, Soundcloud, RSS, Apple Podcasts/iTunes, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts. You can also download an mp3 via the Soundcloud page for offline listening.

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Lingthusiasm is created by Gretchen McCulloch and Lauren Gawne. Our senior producer is Claire Gawne, our production editor is Sarah Dopierala, our production assistant is Martha Tsutsui Billins, and our editorial assistant is Jon Kruk. Our music is ‘Ancient City’ by The Triangles.

This episode of Lingthusiasm is made available under a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial Share Alike license (CC 4.0 BY-NC-SA).

[uncanny-tranny]

If you need help practicing pronouns, try using the pronouns you struggle with on your pets!

Animals have very little understanding of pronouns and human gender. They won't care if you use he, it, she, xie, bun, literally whatever - they only care about you and their food. They'll be fine! However, your loved ones will appreciate your effort in using pronouns, and using them properly. It's a win-win situation!

[indictivity-mu]

it/its users, opinion on "that" being used for you

that example "what is that doing?"

it example "what is it doing?"

(this is your own opinion of the pronoun being used for yourself)

no abstain/see results, it/its users only (including all pronouns users, pronoun fluid users.)

reblog reminder also but if you dont want to thats fine i dont control you 👍

[kiragecko]

Know Your Neopronouns

If you look around online, you can find lists of neopronouns. (Neopronouns are words that get can be used instead of 'he' or 'she' when refering to someone.) Most show just the first 2 terms (‘Ey/Em,’ or ‘Ze/Zim’). Few provide any info about how to pronounce them. And even less provide examples of how messy real usage is. This guide is an attempt to show how real people are using neopronouns. It’s based off the data of the 2020-2023 (Nonbinary) Gender Censuses.

-

English Pronoun Sets include:

Subject (the person acting) – ie. They

Object (the person the action is happening to) – ie. Them

Dependent Possessive (ownership, thing owned is named) - ie. Their

Independent Possessive (ownership, thing owned is not named) – ie. Theirs

Reflexive (action affecting the person who is acting) – ie. Themself

In a sentence:

They walked in and told me their name was Chris. I said hi, and showed them the name tags. They found theirs and put it on themself.

-

Neopronouns come in 3 flavours:

The first type is based off the most common English personal pronouns:

‘They/Them/Their/Theirs/Themself (or Themselves)’

‘He/Him/His/His/Himself’

‘She/Her/Her/Hers/Herself’

This type of neopronoun usually mimics the ending sounds of one or more of the common pronoun sets. For example, ‘Ze/Zem’ pronouns are based on ‘he’ and ‘them.’

The second type includes pronouns not usually used as personal pronouns (like indefinite ('One'), neuter ('It'), or definite (‘that’)). It also includes neopronouns derived from them ('Thon').

The third type is based on various nouns not usually considered related to gender at all ('Star' or 'Pup'). These are called ‘nounself pronouns.’

-

I’ve listed both the common pronouns, as well as the most used neopronouns. For each entry, I include a variety of forms and spellings. I do my best to provide pronunciation. (I have not heard all of them pronounced, and what little I was able to find online might not match what real people are saying.) And I mention if they mimic feminine or masculine pronouns, singular they, indefinite pronouns, nouns, etc.

List of the 25 Most Common Pronouns Used By Nonbinary People in 2023 (According to the Gender Census):

They

He

She

It

Xe

Fae

Hir

Ey

E

Ae

Ve

Ze

Star

Hy

Thon

Void

Ne

Kit, Cat

Pup

Vae, Vey

Xey

Mew, Meow

Bun

One

Moon, Lun

Other pronouns with more than 30 users in the census (not included as separate entries)

That, Thing (that/that/thats/thats/thatself, thing/thing/things/things/thingself, that thing/that thing/that thing’s/that thing’s/that thing – 56 people)

Vamp (vamp/vamp/vamps/vamps/vampself – 54 people)

Sun, Sol (sun/sun/suns/suns/sunself, sol/sol/sols/sols/solself – 51 people)

Dey, Dae (dey/dem/deir/deirs/demself, dae/daem/daer/daers/daemself – 46 people)

Zey (zey/zem/zeir/zeirs/zemself – 46 people)

Per (per/per//per/pers/perself – 18 people)

Rot (rot/rot/rots/rots/rotself – 37 people)

Sie/Sier (sie/sier/sier/siers/sierself - 36 people)

Nya/Nyan (nya/nya/nyas/nyas/nyaself, nya/nyan/nyans/nyas/nyanself – 36 people)

Bug (bug/bug/bugs/bugs/bugself – 35 people)

Ix, X (ix/ix/ixs/ixs/ixself, x/x/xs/xs/xself – 34 people)

Ce (ce/cer/cer/cers/cerself – 33 people)

1. Singular They (They/Them)

Most common nonbinary pronoun set, this was used by 30,188 people in the 2023 Gender Census.

Usual Set:

They / Them / Their / Theirs / Themself (30,107 people) Pronunciation: ðeɪ / ðɛm / ðeɪɹ / ðeɪɹz / ðɛmsɛlf (dhay / dhem / dhayr / dhayrz / dhemself)

Nonstandard Sets:

They / Them / Their / Theirs / Themselves (67 people) Pronunciation: ðeɪ / ðɛm / ðeɪɹ / ðeɪɹz / ðɛmsɛlvz (dhay / dhem / dhayr / dhayrz / dhemselvz) Plural they.

They / Them / Their / Theirs / Theirself (3 people) Pronunciation: ðeɪ / ðɛm / ðeɪɹ / ðeɪɹz / ðɛɹsɛlf (dhay / dhem / dhayr / dhayrz / dherself) Nonstandard They

Using them when talking:

They walked in and told me their name was Chris. I said hi, and showed them the name tags. They found theirs and put it on themself.

Nonstandard sets:

They walked in and told me their name was Chris. I said hi, and showed them the name tags. They found theirs and put it on themselves.

They walked in and told me their name was Chris. I said hi, and showed them the name tags. They found theirs and put it on theirself.

-

2. Masculine Pronouns (He/Him)

Second most common nonbinary pronoun set, this was used by 17,182 people in the 2023 Gender Census.

Usual Set:

He / Him / His / His / Himself Pronunciation: hiː / hɪm / hɪz / hɪz / hɪmsɛlf (hee / him /hiz / hiz / himself)

Nonstandard Sets:

He / Him / His / His / Hisself Pronunciation: hiː / hɪm / hɪz / hɪz / hɪsɛlf (hee / him /hiz / hiz / hiself)

Using them when talking:

He walked in and told me his name was Chris. I said hi, and showed him the name tags. He found his and put it on himself.

Nonstandard set would end with: He found his and put it on hisself.

-

3. Feminine Pronouns (She/Her)

Third most common nonbinary pronoun set, this was used by 13,220 people in the 2023 Gender Census.

Usual Set:

She / Her / Her / Hers / Herself Pronunciation: ʃiː / hɚ / hɚ / hɚz / hɚsɛlf (shee / her /her / herz / herself)

Using them when talking:

She walked in and told me her name was Chris. I said hi, and showed her the name tags. She found hers and put it on herself.

-

4. Neuter Pronouns (It/It)

4th most common set of pronouns (up from 5th last year), and probably the most controversal. Seen as dehumanizing by many people, and as validating by others. (7,859 people)

Usual Set:

It / It /Its / Its / Itself Pronunciation: ɪt / ɪt / ɪts / ɪts / ɪtsɛlf (it / it / its / its / itself)

Using them when talking:

It walked in and told me its name was Chris. I said hi, and showed it the name tags. It found its and put it on itself.

-

5. Xe/Xem Pronouns

5th most common set of nonbinary pronouns, and the most popular neopronoun set. (4,649 people)

Usual Set:

Xe / Xem / Xyr / Xyrs / Xymself (4,504 people) Pronunciation: ziː / zɛm / zɚ / zɚz / zɛmsɛlf (zee / zem / zer / zerz / zemself) Based on: Singular They, with Feminine subject and possessive pronouns

Nonstandard Sets:

Xe / Xir / Xir / Xirs / Xirself (74 people) Pronunciation: ziː / zɚ / zɚ / zɚz / zɚsɛlf (zee / zer / zer / zerz / zerself) Based on: Feminine

Xe / Xim / Xis / Xis / Ximself (27 people) Pronunciation: ziː / zɪm / zɪz / zɪz / zɪmsɛlf (zee / zim / ziz / ziz / zimself) Based on: Masculine

Xe / Xem / Xir / Xirs / Xirself (23 people) Pronunciation: ziː / zɛm / zɚ / zɚz / zɚsɛlf (zee / zem / zer / zerz / zerself) Based on: Nonstandard They, with Feminine possessive pronouns

Spelling:

Subject - Xe (4604), Xie (18), Xi (10), Xy (9), Xhe (7)

Object - Xem (4508), Xim (38), Xym (10), Xiem (3) | Xir (38), Xer (24), Xyr (18), Xher (3)

Dep. Possessive - Xyr (4472), Xir (62), Xer (43), Xeir (23), Xier (5) | Xis (32)

Ind. Possessive - Xyrs (4469), Xirs (54), Xir's (4), Xers (42), Xeirs (22), Xiers (5), Xhers (3) | Xis (25) | Xir (7), Xyr (3)

Reflexive - Xemself (4495), Ximself (31), Xymself (9) | Xirself (42), Xerself (28), Xyrself (22), Xeirself (7)

Using them when talking:

Xe walked in and told me xyr name was Chris. I said hi, and showed xem the name tags. Xe found xyrs and put it on xymself.

Nonstandard sets:

Xe walked in and told me xir name was Chris. I said hi, and showed xir the name tags. Xe found xirs and put it on xirself.

Xe walked in and told me xis name was Chris. I said hi, and showed xim the name tags. Xe found xis and put it on ximself.

Xe walked in and told me xir name was Chris. I said hi, and showed xem the name tags. Xe found xirs and put it on xirself.

-

6. Faerself Pronouns (Fae/Faer)

6th most common set of pronouns, and the 2nd most popular neopronoun set. (2,662 people)

Usual Set:

Fae / Faer / Faer / Faers / Faeself (2,623) Pronunciation: feɪ / feɪɹ / feɪɹ / feɪɹz / feɪsɛlf (fay / fayr / fayr / fayrz / fayself) Based on: the noun Fae/Fairy, with Feminine object and possessive pronouns

Nonstandard Sets:

Fey / Fem / Feir / Feirs / Femself (10 people) Pronunciation: feɪ / fɛm / feɪɹ / feɪɹz / fɛmsɛlf (fay / fem / fayr / fayrz / femself) Based on: Singular They

Fey / Fem / Feir / Feirs / Feirself (9 people) Pronunciation: feɪ / fɛm / feɪɹ / feɪɹz / feɪɹsɛlf (fay / fem / fayr / fayrz / fayrself) Based on: Nonstandard They

Fey / Feyr / Feyr / Feyrs / Feyrself (6 people) Pronunciation: feɪ / feɪɹ / feɪɹ / feɪɹz / feɪɹsɛlf (fay / fayr / fayr / fayrz / fayrself) Based on: Feminine

Spelling:

Subject - Fae (2638), Fey (18)

Object -Faer (2625), Feyr (3) | Fem (14), Faem (7)

Dep. Possessive - Faer (2637), Feir (11), Feyr (7)

Ind. Possessive - Faers (2636), Feirs (11), Feyrs (6)| Faes (3)

Reflexive - Faeself (2625) | Faerself (7), Feirself (5), Feyrself (5) | Femself (7), Faemself (4)

Using them when talking:

Fae walked in and told me faer name was Chris. I said hi, and showed faer the name tags. Fae found faers and put it on faeself.

Nonstandard sets:

Fey walked in and told me feir name was Chris. I said hi, and showed fem the name tags. Fey found feirs and put it on femself.

Fey walked in and told me feir name was Chris. I said hi, and showed fem the name tags. Fey found feirs and put it on feirself.

Fey walked in and told me feyr name was Chris. I said hi, and showed feyr the name tags. Fey found feyrs and put it on feyrself.

-

7. Hir Pronouns (Ze or Sie/Hir)

The set associated with older users. Shi/Hir is also associated with the furry fandom and intersex people (who may consider it a completely different set. Research suggests there might have been drama in the 90s.) (2,190 people)

Usual Set:

Ze / Hir / Hir / Hirs / Hirself (2,148 people) Pronunciation: ziː / hiːɹ / hiːɹ / hiːɹz / hiːɹsɛlf (zee / heer / heer / heerz / heerself) Based on: Feminine, with a long ‘ee’ for all forms.

Nonstandard Sets:

Shi / Hir / Hir / Hirs / Hirself (34 people) Pronunciation: ʃaɪ / hiːɹ / hiːɹ / hiːɹz / hiːɹsɛlf (shy / heer / heer / heerz / heerself) Based on: Feminine, with the same long ‘ee.’

Spelling:

Subject - Ze (2107), Sie (30), Zie (6), Se (3) | Shi (26), Shy (6)

Object - Hir (2177), Hyr (9)

Dep. Possessive - Hir (2174), Hyr (8) | Hirs (5)

Ind. Possessive - Hirs (2177), Hyrs (7)

Reflexive - Hirself (2173), Hyrself (7) | Hemself (3)

Using them when talking:

Ze walked in and told me hir name was Chris. I said hi, and showed hir the name tags. Ze found hirs and put it on hirself.

Nonstandard set:

Shi walked in and told me hir name was Chris. I said hi, and showed hir the name tags. Shi found hirs and put it on hirself.

-

8. Elverson Pronouns (Ey/Em)

Very similar to Spivak pronouns (next), these ones have the subject pronoun (‘ey’) based on ‘they,’ rather than ‘he’ or ‘she.’ (2,056 people)

Usual Set:

Ey / Em / Eir / Eirs / Emself (2,037 people) Pronunciation: eɪ / ɛm / eɪɹ / eɪɹz / ɛmsɛlf (ay / em / ayr / ayrz / emself) Based on: Singular They

Nonstandard sets:

Ey / Em / Eir / Eirs / Eirself (10 people) Pronunciation: eɪ / ɛm / eɪɹ / eɪɹz / eɪɹsɛlf (ay / em / ayr / ayrz / ayrself) Based on: Nonstandard They

Spelling:

Subject - Ey (2051), Ei (3)

Object - Em (2048)

Dep. Possessive - Eir (2049)

Ind. Possessive - Eirs (2049)

Reflexive - Emself (2037), Eimself (3) | Eirself (11)

Using them when talking:

Ey walked in and told me eir name was Chris. I said hi, and showed em the name tags. Ey found eirs and put it on emself.

Nonstandard set would end with: Ey found eirs and put it on eirself.

-

9. Spivak Pronouns (E/Em)

The set most often named in articles explaining neopronouns. (1,624 people)

Usual Set:

E / Em / Eir / Eirs / Emself (1,575 people) Pronunciation: iː / ɛm / eɪɹ / eɪɹz / ɛmsɛlf (ee / em / ayr / ayrz / emself) Based on: Singular They, with Feminine/Masculine subject pronoun.

Nonstandard sets:

E / Em / Es / Es / Emself (13 people) Pronunciation: iː / ɛm / iːz / iːz / ɛmsɛlf (ee / em / eez / eez / emself) Based on: Masculine

Spelling:

Subject - E (1604), 'E (3) | En (7) | Em (8)

Object - Em (1600), Im (6) | E (5) |En (4)

Dep. Possessive - Eir (1577), Er (5) | Es (14), Is (5) | Ems (6) | Ens (4)

Ind. Possessive - Eirs (1576), Ers (5) | Es (10), Is (5), 'Is (3) | Ems (9) | Ens (3)

Reflexive - Emself (1593), Imself (4) | Eself (4) | Enself (4)

Using them when talking:

E walked in and told me eir name was Chris. I said hi, and showed em the name tags. E found eirs and put it on emself.

Nonstandard set:

E walked in and told me es name was Chris. I said hi, and showed em the name tags. E found es and put it on emself.

-

10. Lindsay Pronouns (Ae/Aer)  (344 people)

Very similar to Spivak and Elverson pronouns. Created for a scifi alien race in 1920.

Usual Set:

Ae / Aer / Aer / Aers / Aerself (236 people) Pronunciation: eɪ / eɪɹ / eɪɹ / eɪɹz / eɪɹsɛlf (ay / ayr / ayr / ayrz / ayrself) Based on: Feminine, with vowels similar to Singular They.

Nonstandard sets:

Ae / Aem / Aer / Aers / Aemself (22 people) Pronunciation: eɪ / ɛm / eɪɹ / eɪɹz / ɛmsɛlf (ay / em / ayr / ayrz / emself) Based on: Singular They

Ae / Aer / Aers / Aers / Aerself (20 people) Pronunciation: eɪ / eɪɹ / eɪɹz / eɪɹz / eɪɹsɛlf (ay / ayr / ayrz / ayrz / ayrself) Based on: Feminine, with possessives based on nouns.

Ae / Aem / Aer / Aers / Aerself (19 people) Pronunciation: eɪ / ɛm / eɪɹ / eɪɹz / eɪɹsɛlf (ay / em / ayr / ayrz / ayrself) Based on: Nonstandard They

Spelling:

Subject - Ae (328), Æ (4), Ay (4) | Aer (3)

Object - Aer (268) | Aem (44) | Ae (13)

Dep. Possessive - Aer (285), Ær (3), Aeir (5), Ayr (4) | Aers (24) | Aes (8)

Ind. Possessive - Aers (296), Aer's (4), Ærs (3), Aeirs (5), Ayrs (4) | Aer (6) | Aes (12)

Reflexive - Aerself (280), Ærself (3), Aeirself (3) | Aemself (25) | Aeself (14)

Using them when talking:

Ae walked in and told me aer name was Chris. I said hi, and showed aer the name tags. Ae found aers and put it on aerself.

Nonstandard sets:

Ae walked in and told me aer name was Chris. I said hi, and showed aem the name tags. Ae found aers and put it on aemself.

Ae walked in and told me aers name was Chris. I said hi, and showed aer the name tags. Ae found aers and put it on aerself.

Ae walked in and told me aer name was Chris. I said hi, and showed aem the name tags. Ae found aers and put it on aerself.

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11. Ve/Ver Pronouns

These seem to be the neopronouns to play around with! Many of the sets here alternate masculine and feminine forms, sometimes in unpredictable ways. (304 people)

Usual Set:

Ve / Ver / Ver / Vers / Verself (70 people) Pronunciation: viː / vɚ / vɚ / vɚz / vɚsɛlf (vee / ver / ver / verz / verself) Based on: Feminine

Nonstandard Sets:

Ve / Ver / Vis / Vis / Verself (42 people) Pronunciation: viː / vɚ / vɪz / vɪz / vɚsɛlf (vee / ver / viz / viz / verself) Based on: Masculine and Feminine

Ve / Vem / Ver / Vers / Vemself (32 people) Pronunciation: viː / vɛm / vɚ / vɚz / vɛmsɛlf (vee / vem / ver / verz / vemself) Based on: Singular They

Ve / Vim / Vis / Vis / Vimself (30 people) Pronunciation: viː / vɪm / vɪz / vɪz / vɪmsɛlf (vee / vim / viz / viz / vimself) Based on: Masculine

Ve / Vem / Vir / Virs / Virself (29 people) Pronunciation: viː / vɛm / viːɹ / viːɹz / vɚsɛlf (vee / vem / veer / veerz / verself) Based on: Nonstandard They

Ve / Ver / Vis / Vers / Verself (22 people) Pronunciation: viː / vɚ / vɪz / vɚz / vɚsɛlf (vee / ver / viz / verz / verself) Based on: Feminine, with one Masculine possessive

Spelling:

Subject - Ve (230), Vi (59), Vy (4)

Object - Ver (90), Vir (57), Zher (6) | Vim (59), Vem (56), Vym (5) | Ven (8) | Vis (4)

Dep. Possessive - Vir (73), Ver (56), Veir (18), Vyr (10), Vier (4) | Vis (107) | Virs (4), Vers (3) | Vens (3)

Ind. Possessive - Virs (83), Vers (67), Veirs (18), Vyrs (9), Vaers (3) | Vis (92) | Vens (3)

Reflexive - Verself (100), Virself (75), Vyrself (5), Verrself (4) | Vimself (48), Vemself (33) | Viself (4), Veself (4) | Venself (6)

Using them when talking:

Ve walked in and told me ver name was Chris. I said hi, and showed ver the name tags. Ve found vers and put it on verself.

Nonstandard sets:

Ve walked in and told me vis name was Chris. I said hi, and showed ver the name tags. Ve found vis and put it on verself.

Ve walked in and told me ver name was Chris. I said hi, and showed vem the name tags. Ve found vers and put it on vemself.

Ve walked in and told me vis name was Chris. I said hi, and showed vim the name tags. Ve found vis and put it on vimself.

Ve walked in and told me vir name was Chris. I said hi, and showed vem the name tags. Ve found virs and put it on virself.

Ve walked in and told me vis name was Chris. I said hi, and showed ver the name tags. Ve found vers and put it on vimself.

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12. Ze Pronouns

Pronounced almost identically to Xe pronouns, but derives from Ze/Hir pronouns (286 people)

Usual Set:

Ze / Zir / Zir / Zirs / Zirself (140 people) Pronunciation: ziː / ziːɹ / ziːɹ / ziːɹz / ziːɹsɛlf (zee / zeer / zeer / zeerz / zeerself) Based on: Ze/Hir, which is based on Feminine, with a long ‘ee’ for all forms.

Nonstandard Sets:

Ze / Zem / Zir / Zirs / Zemself (76 people) Pronunciation: ziː / zɛm / ziːɹ / ziːɹz / zɛmsɛlf (zee / zem / zeer / zeerz / zemself) Based on: Singular They

Ze / Zem / Zir / Zirs / Zirself (26 people) Pronunciation: ziː / zɛm / ziːɹ / ziːɹz / ziːɹsɛlf (zee / zem / zeer / zeerz / zeerself) Based on: Nonstandard They

Ze / Zim / Zis / Zis / Zimself (76 people) Pronunciation: ziː / zɪm / zɪz / zɪz / zɪmsɛlf (zee / zim / ziz / ziz / zimself) Based on: Masculine

Spelling:

Subject - Ze (237), Zie (27), Zhe (17), Zi (3)

Object - Zir (126), Zer (8), Zher (6) | Zem (83), Zim (31), Zhim (7)

Dep. Possessive - Zir (181), Zer (31), Zeir (20), Zyr (12), Zher (10), Zhir (3) | Zis (10) | Zirs (5)

Ind. Possessive - Zirs (178), Zers (31), Zeirs (22), Zyrs (12), Zhers (10), Zhirs (3) | Zis (8) | Zir (3)

Reflexive - Zirself (149), Zerself (14), Zherself (6), Zyrself (4), Zeirself (3) | Zemself (78), Zimself (25), Zymself (4), Zhimself (7) | Zeself (4)

Using them when talking:

Ze walked in and told me zir name was Chris. I said hi, and showed zir the name tags. Ze found zirs and put it on zirself.

Nonstandard sets:

Ze walked in and told me zir name was Chris. I said hi, and showed zem the name tags. Ze found zirs and put it on zemself.

Ze walked in and told me zir name was Chris. I said hi, and showed zem the name tags. Ze found zirs and put it on zirself.

Ze walked in and told me zis name was Chris. I said hi, and showed zim the name tags. Ze found zis and put it on zimself.

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13. Star Pronouns

The most popular nounself pronouns (13th overall)! (157 people)

Usual Set:

Star / Star / Stars / Stars / Starself (133 people) Pronunciation: stɑɹ / stɑɹ / stɑɹz / stɑɹz / stɑɹsɛlf (star / star / starz / starz / starself) Based on: Nouns

Nonstandard Sets:

Usual Set: Star / Star / Star / Stars / Starself (9 people) Pronunciation: stɑɹ / stɑɹ / stɑɹ / stɑɹz / stɑɹsɛlf (star / star / star / starz / starself) Based on: Nouns, with possessives influenced by Feminine/Singular They

Spelling:

Subject - Star (150) | Sta (3)

Object - Star (144) | Stars (4)

Dep. Possessive - Stars (119), Star's (16) | Star (12)

Ind. Possessive - Stars (130), Star's (19)

Reflexive - Starself (150)

Using them when talking:

Star walked in and told me stars name was Chris. I said hi, and showed star the name tags. Star found stars and put it on starself.

Nonstandard sets:

Star walked in and told me star name was Chris. I said hi, and showed star the name tags. Star found stars and put it on starself.

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14. Hy/Hym Pronouns

Pronounced identically to masculine pronouns. (130 people)

Usual Set:

Hy / Hym / Hys / Hys / Hymself (103 people) Pronunciation: hiː / hɪm / hɪz / hɪz / hɪmsɛlf (hee / him /hiz / hiz / himself) Based on: Masculine

Nonstandard Set:

Hey / Hem / Heir / Heirs / Hemself (9 people) Pronunciation: heɪ / hɛm / heɪɹ / heɪɹz / heɪɹsɛlf (hay / hem /hayr / hayrz / hemself) Based on: Singular They

Spelling:

Subject - Hy (97), He (10), Hie (5) | Hey (10)

Object - Hym (65), Hymn (44), Hem (15)

Dep. Possessive - Hys (97) | Heir (11), Hyr (3) | Hymns (4)

Ind. Possessive - Hys (97) | Heirs (1) | Hymns (5)

Reflexive - Hymself (58), Hymnself (46), Hemself (12)

Using them when talking:

Hy walked in and told me hys name was Chris. I said hi, and showed hym the name tags. Hy found hys and put it on hymself.

Nonstandard sets:

Hey walked in and told me heir name was Chris. I said hi, and showed hem the name tags. Hey found heirs and put it on hemself.

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15. Thon Pronouns

One of the oldest neopronouns, dating to 1858. A contraction of 'that one'. Linguists and social reformers LOVED these pronouns, actual users are much rarer. (122 people)

Usual Set:

Thon / Thon / Thons / Thons / Thonself (104 people) Pronunciation: ðʌn / ðʌn / ðʌnz / ðʌnz / ðʌnsɛlf (dhuhn / dhuhn / dhuhnz / dhuhnz / dhuhnself – ‘the’ + n) Based on: One (Indefinite Pronoun), which works identically to nouns

Nonstandard Set:

Thon / Thon / Thon / Thons / Thonself (6 people) Pronunciation: ðʌn / ðʌn / ðʌn / ðʌnz / ðʌnsɛlf (dhuhn / dhuhn / dhuhn / dhuhnz / dhuhnself) Based on: One, with possessives influenced by Feminine/Singular They

Spelling:

Subject - Thon (119)

Object - Thon (114) | Thons (5)

Dep. Possessive - Thons (104), Thon's (5) | Thon (7)

Ind. Possessive - Thons (101), Thon's (12) | Thon (4)

Reflexive - Thonself (119)

Using them when talking:

Thon walked in and told me thons name was Chris. I said hi, and showed thon the name tags. Thon found thons and put it on thonself.

Nonstandard sets:

Thon walked in and told me thon name was Chris. I said hi, and showed thon the name tags. Thon found thons and put it on thonself.

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16. Void Pronouns

The 2nd most popular nounself pronouns (16th overall) (117 people)

Usual Set:

Void / Void / Voids / Voids / Voidself (72 people) Pronunciation: voɪd / voɪd / voɪdz / voɪdz / voɪdsɛlf (voyd / voyd / voydz / voydz / voydself) Based on: Nouns (Void)

Nonstandard Sets:

Voi / Void / Voids / Voids / Voidself (69 people) Pronunciation: voɪ / voɪd / voɪdz / voɪdz / voɪdsɛlf (voy / voyd / voydz / voydz / voydself) Based on: Nouns (Void), with subject form shortened to better match established pronouns

Voi / Void / Void / Voids / Voidself (10 people) Pronunciation: voɪ / voɪd / voɪd / voɪdz / voɪdsɛlf (voy / voyd / voyd / voydz / voydself) Based on: Nouns (Void), with subject form shortened, and possessives influenced by Feminine/Singular They

Spelling:

Subject - Voi (108), Vo (3) | Void (80) | Vi (3)

Object - Void (180) | Voi (9)

Dep. Possessive - Voids (134), Void's (14) | Void (18) | Vois (14) | Voi (4)

Ind. Possessive - Voids (153), Void's (19) | Vois (12)

Reflexive - Voidself (181) | Voiself (9)

Using them when talking:

Void walked in and told me voids name was Chris. I said hi, and showed void the name tags. Void found voids and put it on voidself.

Nonstandard sets:

Voi walked in and told me voids name was Chris. I said hi, and showed void the name tags. Voi found voids and put it on voidself.

Voi walked in and told me void name was Chris. I said hi, and showed void the name tags. Voi found voids and put it on voidself.

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17. Ne/Nem Pronouns

(114 people)

Usual Set:

Ne / Nem / Nir / Nirs / Nemself (61 people) Pronunciation: niː / nɛm / nɚ / nɚz / nɛmsɛlf (nee / nem / ner / nerz / nemself) Based on: Singular They, with Feminine subject and possessive pronouns

Nonstandard Sets:

Ne / Nim / Nis / Nis / Nimself (19 people) Pronunciation: niː / nɪm / nɪz / nɪz / nɪmsɛlf (nee / nim / niz / niz / nimself) Based on: Masculine

Ne / Nem / Nir / Nirs / Nirself (8 people) Pronunciation: niː / nɛm / nɚ / nɚz / nɚsɛlf (nee / nem / ner / nerz / nerself) Based on: Nonstandard They, with Feminine subject and possessive pronouns

Ne / Nem / Nems / Nems / Nemself (7 people) Pronunciation: niː / nɛm / nɛmz / nɛmz / nɛmsɛlf (nee / nem / nemz / nemz / nemself) Based on: Nouns

Spelling:

Subject - Ne (98), Nie (4), Ni (3)

Object - Nem (65), Nym (25), Nim (16)

Dep. Possessive - Nir (48), Neir (11), Nyr (10), Ner (7) | Nis (13), Nys (6) | Nems (3), Nims (3)

Ind. Possessive - Nirs (45), Neirs (11), Nyrs (9), Ners (5) | Nis (15), Nys (5) | Nems (5), Nims (4)

Reflexive - Nemself (68), Nymself (22), Nimself (15) | Nirself (5), Neirself (3), Nyrself (3)

Using them when talking:

Ne walked in and told me nir name was Chris. I said hi, and showed nem the name tags. Ne found nirs and put it on nemself.

Nonstandard sets:

Ne walked in and told me nis name was Chris. I said hi, and showed nim the name tags. Ne found nis and put it on nimself.

Ne walked in and told me nir name was Chris. I said hi, and showed nem the name tags. Ne found nirs and put it on nirself.

Ne walked in and told me nems name was Chris. I said hi, and showed nem the name tags. Ne found nems and put it on nemself.

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18. Kit, Cat Pronouns

The first of the animal based pronouns! People using animal based pronouns frequently alternate between multiple sets - based off animals (kit, bug), their sounds (meow, caw), and their body parts (paw). (103 people)

Usual Set:

Kit / Kit / Kits / Kits / Kitself (60 people) Pronunciation: kɪt / kɪt / kɪts / kɪts / kɪtsɛlf (kit / kit / kits / kits / kitself) Based on: Nouns (Kit/Kitty)

Nonstandard Sets:

Cat / Cat / Cats / Cats / Catself (23 people) Pronunciation: kat / kat / kats / kats / katsɛlf (kat / kat / kats / kats / katself) Based on: Nouns (Cat)

Spelling:

Subject - Kit (69) | Kitty (6) | Cat (23)

Object - Kit (64) | Kits (3) | Kitty (8) | Cat (23)

Dep. Possessive - Kits (65), Kit's (3) | Kittys (4), Kitty's (3) | Cats (18), Cat's (4)

Ind. Possessive - Kits (62), Kit's (4) | Kitty's (4) | Kittens (3) | Cats (17), Cat's (6)

Reflexive - Kitself (67) | Kittyself (4) | Kittenself (4) | Catself (23)

Using them when talking:

Kit walked in and told me kits name was Chris. I said hi, and showed kit the name tags. Kit found kits and put it on kitself.

Nonstandard sets:

Cat walked in and told me cats name was Chris. I said hi, and showed cat the name tags. Cat found cats and put it on catself.

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19. Pup Pronouns

(102 people)

Usual Set: Pup / Pup / Pups / Pups / Pupself (75 people) Pronunciation: pʌp / pʌp / pʌps / pʌps / pʌpsɛlf (puhp / puhp / puhps / puhps / puhpself) Based on: Nouns (Pup/Puppy)

Spelling:

Subject - Pup (85) | Dog (6), The Dog (5) | Mutt (4)

Object - Pup (75) | Pups (6)| Dog (5), The Dog (4) | Mutt (4)

Dep. Possessive - Pups (69), Pup's (12) | Dogs (3), The Dog's (4) | Mutts (4)

Ind. Possessive - Pups (69), Pup's (13) | Dogs (5), The Dog's (4) | Mutts (4)

Reflexive - Pupself (82) | Dogself (6) | Itself (4) | Muttself (4)

Using them when talking:

Pup walked in and told me pups name was Chris. I said hi, and showed pup the name tags. Pup found pups and put it on pupself.

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20. Vae Pronouns

Ve pronouns have endless variations! These ones use a subject form based on They, rather than He/She, and seem to be influenced by Ae and Fae pronouns. (91 people)

Usual Set:

Vae / Vaem / Vaer / Vaers / Vaemself (42 people) Pronunciation: veɪ / vɛm / veɪɹ / veɪɹz / veɪmsɛlf (vay / vem / vayr / vayrz / vemself) Based on: Singular They

Nonstandard Sets:

Vae / Vaer / Vaer / Vaers / Vaerself (27 people) Pronunciation: veɪ / veɪɹ / veɪɹ / veɪɹz / veɪɹsɛlf (vay / vayr / vayr / vayrz / vayrself) Based on: Feminine

Vae / Vaem / Vaer / Vaers / Vaerself (11 people) Pronunciation: veɪ / vɛm / veɪɹ / veɪɹz / veɪɹsɛlf (vay / vem / vayr / vayrz / vayrself) Based on: Nonstandard They

Spelling:

Subject - Vae (63), Vey (24)

Object - Vem (26), Vaem (22) | Vaer (28) | Vae (3)

Dep. Possessive - Vaer (59), Veir (14), Ver (4)

Ind. Possessive - Vaers (58), Veirs (14), Vers (5)

Reflexive – Vaerself (37), Veirself (4) | Vymself (20), Vaemself (16) | Vaeself (4)

Using them when talking:

Vae walked in and told me vaer name was Chris. I said hi, and showed vaem the name tags. Vae found vaers and put it on vaemself.

Nonstandard sets:

Vae walked in and told me vaer name was Chris. I said hi, and showed vaer the name tags. Vae found vaers and put it on vaerself.

Vae walked in and told me vaer name was Chris. I said hi, and showed vaem the name tags. Vae found vaers and put it on vaerself.

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21. Xey Pronouns

Xe pronouns also have a version based on They in the subject form. (91 people)

Usual Set:

Xey / Xem / Xeir / Xeirs / Xemself (37 people) Pronunciation: zeɪ / zɛm / zeɪɹ / zeɪɹz / zeɪmsɛlf (zay / zem / zayr / zayrz / zemself) Based on: Singular They

Nonstandard Sets:

Xey / Xem / Xeir / Xeirs / Xeirself (37 people) Pronunciation: zeɪ / zɛm / zeɪɹ / zeɪɹz / zeɪɹsɛlf (zay / zem / zayr / zayrz / zayrself) Based on: Nonstandard They

Xae / Xaem / Xaer / Xaers / Xaerself (11 people) Pronunciation: zeɪ / zeɪɹ / zeɪɹ / zeɪɹz / zeɪɹsɛlf (zay / zayr / zayr / zayrz / zayrself) Based on: Feminine

Spelling:

Subject - Xey (71), Xae (10)

Object - Xem (70), Xaem (4) | Xaer (4)

Dep. Possessive - Xeir (49), Xyr (12), Xaer (8), Xer (7), Xeyr (3)

Ind. Possessive - Xeirs (46), Xyrs (12), Xaers (7), Xers (7), Xeyrs (3)

Reflexive - Xemself (61), Xaemself (3) | Xeirself (5), Xaerself (4)

Using them when talking:

Xey walked in and told me xeir name was Chris. I said hi, and showed xem the name tags. Xey found xeirs and put it on xemself.

Nonstandard sets:

Xey walked in and told me xeir name was Chris. I said hi, and showed xem the name tags. Xey found xeirs and put it on xeirself.

Xae walked in and told me xaer name was Chris. I said hi, and showed xaer the name tags. Xae found xaers and put it on xaerself.

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22. Mew Pronouns

These pronouns often alternate with Kit/Cat pronouns, or other cat sounds like Nyan or Purr (89 people)

Usual Set:

Mew / Mew / Mews / Mews / Mewself (48 people) Pronunciation: mjuː / mjuː / mjuːz / mjuːz / mjusɛlf (myoo / myoo / myooz / myooz / myooself) Based on: Nouns (Mew)

Nonstandard Sets:

Meow / Meow / Meows / Meows / Meowself (27 people) Pronunciation: mjaʊ or mi‧aʊ / mjaʊ / mjaʊz / mjaʊz / mjaʊsɛlf (myow / myow / myowz / myowz / myowself) Based on: Nouns (Meow)

Spelling:

Subject - Mew (53) | Meow (29) | Mrr (3)

Object - Mew (49) | Meow (29) | Mrrp (4)

Dep. Possessive - Mews (47) | Meows (25), Meow's (4) | Mrrps (3)

Ind. Possessive - Mews (45) | Meows (27), Meow's (4) | Mrrps (3)

Reflexive - Mewself (50) | Meowself (31) | Mrrpself (3)

Using them when talking:

Mew walked in and told me mews name was Chris. I said hi, and showed mew the name tags. Mew found mews and put it on mewself.

Nonstandard sets:

Meow walked in and told me meows name was Chris. I said hi, and showed meow the name tags. Meow found meows and put it on meowself.

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23. Bun Pronouns

(71 people)

Usual Set:

Bun / Bun / Buns / Buns / Bunself (60 people) Pronunciation: bʌn / bʌn / bʌnz / bʌnz / bʌnsɛlf (buhn / buhn / buhnz / buhnz / buhnself) Based on: Nouns (Bunny)

Spelling:

Subject - Bun (69)

Object - Bun (69)

Dep. Possessive - Buns (59), Bun's (10)

Ind. Possessive - Buns (55), Bun's (10)

Reflexive - Bunself (68)

Using them when talking:

Bun walked in and told me buns name was Chris. I said hi, and showed bun the name tags. Bun found buns and put it on bunself.

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24. Indefinite Pronouns (One)

The 'formal' option - this is what grammarians used to suggest (64 people)

Usual Set:

One / One / One's / One's / Oneself  (51 people) Pronunciation: wʌn / wʌn / wʌnz / wʌnz / wʌnsɛlf (wuhn / wuhn / wuhnz / wuhnz / wuhnself) Based on: Indefinite Pronoun

Spelling:

Subject - One (53), That One (7), This One (4)

Object - One (50), That One (8), This One (3)

Dep. Possessive - One's (30), Ones (23), That One's (6), This One's (3)

Ind. Possessive - One's (31), Ones (22), That One's (6)

Reflexive - Oneself (53), That One's Self (4)

Using them when talking:

One walked in and told me one's name was Chris. I said hi, and showed one the name tags. One found one's and put it on oneself.

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25. Moon/Lun Pronouns

(57 people)

Usual Set:

Moon / Moon / Moons / Moons / Moonself (32 people) Pronunciation: muːn / muːn / muːnz / muːnz / muːnsɛlf (moon / moon / moonz / moonz / moonself) Based on: Nouns (Moon)

Nonstandard sets:

Lun / Lun / Luns / Luns / Lunself (9 people) Pronunciation: luːn / luːn / luːnz / luːnz / luːnsɛlf (loon / loon / loonz / loonz / loonself) Based on: Nouns (Lunar)

Spelling:

Subject - Moon (33) | Lun (9) | Lu (8)

Object - Moon (33) | Lun (10) | Luna (6) | Lunar (3)

Dep. Possessive - Moons (26), Moon's (8) | Luns (12)

Ind. Possessive - Moons (26), Moon's (7) | Luns (12)

Reflexive - Moonself (34) | Lunself (12) | Lunaself (4)

Using them when talking:

Moon walked in and told me moons name was Chris. I said hi, and showed moon the name tags. Moon found moons and put it on moonself.

Nonstandard sets:

Lun walked in and told me luns name was Chris. I said hi, and showed lun the name tags. Lun found luns and put it on lunself.

-

A note on defining sets:

Deciding what to consider a variant, and what to consider a different set altogether, wasn't easy.

Elverson and Spivak pronouns are mostly separated because of their history, and how (relatively) well known they are. I then tried to stay consistent, and separated things like 'ze' and 'zey' sets.

Animal and sound based nounself pronouns are grouped based on how difficult it was to separate them. A relatively high percentage of people wrote 'kit' and 'cat' forms into the same entry. Less people grouped 'mew' and 'nya' forms. And, while 'mew' and 'nya' forms were FREQUENTLY grouped with 'kit' and 'cat' forms, I kept them separate for my own sanity.

I am also VERY glad that 'sie/sier' pronouns didn't make the top 25. 'Sie', 'se', 'sea', 'ce', and 'ke' are probably unsortable without talking to their users individually. (There's at least three pronunciations in there - 'zee', see' and 'kee'!) But I love the 4 people using 'sir' as a pronoun. That amuses me!

[queensectonia]

i think one of the bigger tells we have in the kirby fandom for whether someone is genuinely trying to share information or is just trying to start slapfights about headcanon is the phrase “kirby is canonically nonbinary in japan”. i’ve almost never seen that phrase used as anything other than code for “your headcanon is wrong” - when it is said earnestly, it’s almost always because the person saying it was just repeating it from elsewhere.

*for those just tuning in: kirby isn’t canonically anything in japan. his gender is strictly unknown and this is a very intentional choice on HAL’s part. japanese is what is known as a “pro-drop language”, which means that pronouns of all classes can be omitted from standard linguistical use. this is particularly true of second- and third-person pronouns; saying “he” or “she” often sounds unnatural in speech. you could give a whole description of someone in japanese without ever inferring their gender, and this is exactly what HAL does with kirby. it’s a completely normal and mundane function of the language - kirby isn’t even the only character who is referred to this way! several major and minor characters never have their gender referred to in any way, including meta knight for example.

the only slightly gendered thing about kirby is his first-person pronoun: he uses “boku” in japanese on the rare occasions that he speaks. boku is a typically masculine pronoun, but it gives off an informal, young boy kind of feel, and is commonly used by all genders in media.

kirby, like a lot of nintendo’s early protagonists, is meant to be something of a blank slate for the player to project what they want on. in external media like comic books, twitter posts, etc., kirby is often shown participating in both girls-only and boys-only events. makiko ohmoto has said that she sees people imagining kirby as a boy or as a girl and that she’s fond of any interpretation.

(for a bit of an added fun fact, this is a large part of why female kirby interpretations are so popular in the japanese fandom - gijinka or otherwise!)

[namechangesurvey]

Would YOU like to contribute (some more) to my thesis project?

Hi, you might remember me from that other survey I did last week. The one I had to pause because I got 1400 replies in three days (sorry about that, I got slightly overwhelmed). Well, if you'd like to help me gather further data, I've made a shiny new survey that will STAY ACTIVE until 10th January!

This is part of my university work in the linguistic field of onomastics, the study of proper names. The survey takes about 10-15 minutes to do and participation is anonymous; data will not be shared with third parties.

I'm looking for participants, especially ones who

are trans*/genderqueer (binary transgender, nonbinary, genderfluid, agender, or anything in between!) and/or

have changed their first name (legal proceedings not mandatory, you just need to be using one that's different from your birth name in some way)

Please note that you are welcome to participate if these criteria do not apply to you! Also you don't need to be a native English speaker to participate, and you can complete this new survey if you've done the previous one already! (Basically, I'll be comparing the answers of this one and the old survey to see if there are any changes/noticeable trends.)

The survey is now CLOSED!

It would be lovely if folks would reblog this post and pass on the link to people they know who might be interested in participating as well!

(If you encounter any technical problems or other issues, please let me know so I can go see what's up! And get in touch if you have any questions!)

[thiefking]

people who do not use it/its don't get a poll option since i don't want a giant pile of votes on there skewing the ratio. i do not use it/its myself i am just genuinely curious if this is something popular with it/its users. also feel free to add in the tags your reasoning and any other pronouns you also use

[pretzelbea]

Semi-hot take:

Using thorn (þ) as a replacement for "th" in modern/online text is cringe and not how language works

EXCEPT:

using "þussy" as an abbreviation for "they/them pussy" because it lets there be pussy, bussy, and þussy

[disasterhimbo]

I think it’s really funny how cis people will forget gender-neutral words like “person” already exist and start using “they” as a noun around nonbinary people

[javasquats]

I think it’s a good personal challenge to see how much you can remove “masculine” and “feminine” from your vocabulary.

Now I don’t mean this in a “grrr stop doing this, it’s problematic” way. I mean it more as an exercise.

When you use the term “feminine,” what specifically do you mean in THAT context? Do you mean nurturing? Flamboyant? Community oriented? Embellished? Are you referring to a bodily feature? Do you mean something else?

What word could you use to replace the word “masculine” and still get your message across? Utilitarian? Brash? Action and service oriented? A word for a bodily feature? Something else?

From a linguistics perspective, these words are especially nebulous. As we move away from a bioessentialist binary view of gender, the meanings of these words are becoming more and more difficult to pinpoint. EVERY person is going to have a different understanding of what these words imply, based on their own encounters with the words.

Many (queer) people identify with these words and use them in ways that empower them, and that’s so wonderful to see. And also, these words historically rely on a traditional gendered world view to convey meaning.

I think reflecting on what other words we can incorporate into our vocabulary to describe behaviors, bodies, and presentations may help us break away from that binary thinking. Again, this isn’t a prescription, rather an invitation to give this a try!

[lingthusiasm]

Transcript Episode 93: How nonbinary and binary people talk - Interview with Jacq Jones

This is a transcript for Lingthusiasm episode 'How nonbinary and binary people talk - Interview with Jacq Jones'. It’s been lightly edited for readability. Listen to the episode here or wherever you get your podcasts. Links to studies mentioned and further reading can be found on the episode show notes page.

[Music]

Gretchen: Welcome to Lingthusiasm, a podcast that’s enthusiastic about linguistics! I’m Gretchen McCulloch. Today, we’re getting enthusiastic about nonbinary speech with Dr. Jacq Jones. They’re a lecturer at Te Kunenga ki Pūrehuroa / Massey University in Auckland, New Zealand. But first, our most recent bonus episode was about various kinds of fun mishearings and missayings and misparsings that people make in songs, in phrases, in idioms – all sorts of, like, you know when you hear “an acorn,” and you think it might actually be “an egg-corn” because it’s like the egg of the tree? Well, we talk about what strange things that you mishear, or misparse, can tell us about how language works. Go to patreon.com/lingthusiasm to listen to this bonus episode, many more bonus episodes, and help us keep the show running.

[Music]

Gretchen: Hello Jacq!

Jacq: Hi Gretchen!

Gretchen: Thanks for coming on the podcast.

Jacq: Thanks for inviting me. It’s awesome.

Gretchen: Before we get into all of the cool research that you’ve done about how nonbinary people talk that you’re working on, let’s talk a little bit about your origin story. How did you get into linguistics?

Jacq: Okay, well, I mean, how far back do you wanna go, I guess? I was a high school dropout. I was in my teens. I was going around North America, in Canada and the United States, working and this and that. I decided I wanted to go back to school. I did get into an adult education programme and finished up my high school. It was in a really small town in rural Alberta. It had a community college, and they didn’t have that many classes. I went into geography.

Gretchen: That’s super related to linguistics.

Jacq: You’d be surprised.

Gretchen: Great.

Jacq: Yeah, because I had spent time in the southern United States and in Alberta and in Ontario and things, and so I liked seeing all the different places. I went into geography. For people who don’t know, geography has these two big branches. There’s physical geography and human geography. Physical geography is rocks and trees and mountains and weather, and human geography is how people affect the world and how the world affects people.

Gretchen: So, like cities and stuff.

Jacq: Yeah, right. So, I was sitting in a class, and we were talking about how goods move across borders and how a lot of human influences – including language and political borders – can affect the movement of goods and, alternatively, how languages can be stopped by things like mountains.

Gretchen: Oh! Okay.

Jacq: You’ll have dialects that won’t go over the top of a mountain because you have this physical barrier. I was like, “That’s amazing.” Somehow, something about this interaction between this natural world and something like language, which is very, sort of, in your heads – but of course, you’re not gonna walk up a mountain to go talk to the person on the other side.

Gretchen: I live in Montreal, which doesn’t even really have a mountain by proper mountain-people standards, and I don’t wanna walk up that mountain just to talk to someone at the top. I totally understand that prehistoric people also did not wanna do this.

Jacq: Exactly. People, you know, live along rivers, so you have languages and language change and language contact all along these natural systems. That was the bug.

Gretchen: That’s fascinating. That’s so cool.

Jacq: And then I went from this community college – this adult education programme – to university, took a linguistics class, and as they say, that was it. Fell in love with phonetics and acoustics and all the meaty bits inside of you that create language. And here we are.

Gretchen: You do sounds – phonetics, how people talk – and specifically, I first encountered your research when I was in New Zealand last year at the New Zealand Linguistic Society Annual Meeting in Dunedin. You were giving a talk about your dissertation on how nonbinary people talk. How did you get into that topic?

Jacq: Sure. I think for most linguists, if you can press them, for most people in academia, what you’re into – there’s always something personal in it. There’s always something in what you’re doing. As a nonbinary person, navigating the 2010s – the late 2010s – trying to navigate what “gender” means, I kept catching myself really interrogating, really thinking about how I interact with people around me and what assumptions they’re going to put on me, what assumptions I’m putting on myself. You know, I’m getting on the bus, how low do I wanna talk to the bus driver? Just really silly stuff like that.

Gretchen: Like, are they gonna “sir” or “ma’am” me to show how they’re parsing my gender?

Jacq: Exactly. And do I want either of those options? Not really.

Gretchen: Which are both wrong.

Jacq: But if I can barely figure out what being nonbinary means to me as a nonbinary person, how can I expect the, you know, 60-year-old parent that I’m talking to, or a random person at the coffee shop I’m talking to, to understand all these backflips that I’m trying to do in presenting my gender? I mean, I’m into phonetics. I’m into acoustics. I’ve always been interested, linguistically, in this space between “This is how people talk because they are from Canada,” “This is how people talk because they’re a woman” – or because they’re a certain socio-economic class, or this – versus “This is how a jock or a burnout talks,” “This is how somebody asserts their identity.” When you’re looking at gender, that’s really this difference between a lot of stuff that we’re taught growing up and a lot of stuff that people might argue is inherent – a lot of stuff that is constrained by physiology, in some ways, by your existence in a meat suit – but you still always have control over it. That’s where this is. Part of it is being nonbinary and wanting that legitimacy of examining the numbers and proving that I exist, and nonbinary people exist, which are not represented historically. That’s changing now. And so, wanting that studying me and people like me to show “Hey, we exist. This is a thing that we can measure. This is a thing that we can look at,” and studying why, and yeah.

Gretchen: If you study all the other nonbinary speakers, then they’ll just tell how you need to talk now. So, that’ll be really handy.

Jacq: I mean, that’s part of it, too, right, is something that’s really exciting about studying nonbinary people during my dissertation – and I think that this is very much changing for the better, and I’m so happy that there are so many more options for young people in terms of gender and for old people in terms of gender and for anybody in terms of gender, but at the time, it really felt like all the templates that were out there were very binary – all the methodologies for studying speech, all of variation studies, everything, was, “This is how men talk,” “This is how women talk,” “This is how you’re supposed to talk if you’re a man or a woman,” or you want to present yourself – it was all binary.

Gretchen: I remember even when I was just being trained at grad school, everything was very binary. People weren’t even really questioning that. Even 10 years later, it seems like there’s been a lot more people thinking that through.

Jacq: Exactly. That is so amazing. From the point of view – putting on the researcher hat – studying it at the point where the speakers are making these first decisions without any templates – without a YouTube person to look at to model this kind of language on – felt really exciting.

Gretchen: And then somebody else who’s doing this study in another 10 years or 20 years or something when possibly nonbinary identity may have coalesced a bit more, then they have this to compare to as a baseline to see – it’s not often we get to watch a new gender evolve in real time. I mean, that’s not quite true because non-cis people have always existed, but the coherent, legible, nonbinary category, we get to watch it evolve in real time.

Jacq: Exactly. Traditionally, in these linguistic studies of dialect formation, that’s the 10-dollar word. You’re looking at something that’s very geographically bound. You have a group of people from one dialect that are moving to another place for another dialect. You have this contact, and you can study things coming out of that. But for nonbinary gender, even now, I can say, “Aw, there’s so many more nonbinary people out there.” I mean, realistically, if we think about our own networks, we do not have – I mean, I guess I can’t say this about everybody – but most of us don’t have a huge amount of nonbinary people in it compared to how many other LGBT people or how many other men or women – there just aren’t that many nonbinary people. We do tend to find each other, but we don’t have these big communities.

Gretchen: There’s a certain clustering, but it’s also not absolute, and there’s lots of other stuff. Do you feel like the internet has an influence on how nonbinary people talk?

Jacq: I think it does in the sense that the internet – and in particular, that kind of American sphere of the internet – influences everything that everybody does all of the time in some ways. But I also think that gender – sex and gender, in particular – these core identity things interact so strongly with where we are and our immediate context that it’s not quite as – in terms of speech, I don’t think it’s quite as strong. I did have one participant – if I can talk about my dissertation a little bit.

Gretchen: Oh, yeah, please, no, tell us about how the nonbinary people talk.

Jacq: One of my participants, Istus, is nonbinary and very femme. One of the things I talked about at that conference talk that you saw me – the slides are on my website, if you wanna take a look.

Gretchen: Excellent, we can link to those.

Jacq: Sweet. Istus is nonbinary and also very femme. This is something that really challenges the stereotypes that we have. Even me as a researcher coming into this had this idea of you have these men and women, and then you have these nonbinary people that are challenging these stereotypes, but “nonbinary” is not necessarily “non-femme.” So, Istus’s femininity was very nonbinary. When she talked about trying to construct her voice, this femininity that she wanted to get across, she would talk about putting on, basically, a Californian accent. She would say, “I can talk like this, and I sound very feminine, but I also sound like I’m smiling all the time, and I’m not that nice a person.”

Gretchen: Is Istus a New Zealander? Because you’re doing your PhD in New Zealand.

Jacq: All of my participants were from Christchurch (Ōtautahi), New Zealand. They were mostly between the ages of 18 and 22 – so this really specific first year of university cohort where you’re learning your identity and really stretching out from under your parents’ wings for the first time. I also had a couple of participants that were over 40. That’s interesting because it also challenges our stereotypes of gender as this static thing that you’re a man or a woman. When we look at how language can change over time, we don’t always think about how the people that are speaking can change over time.

Gretchen: A lot of the most visible nonbinary people are younger, but there’re also older people who are saying, “Oh, these young people have described a word for this thing that I’ve felt my whole life, and actually, I’m also this identity, and now there’s a word for it.”

Jacq: Absolutely. I mean, being a 45-year-old nonbinary person, you don’t necessarily want to speak like a 20-year-old nonbinary person, right.

Gretchen: Totally.

Jacq: If 20-year-old nonbinary people are trying to navigate what sex and gender is, if you’re 40, there’s that much more history of trying to figure all of this out.

Gretchen: Absolutely. Going back to Istus, who is the subject of the talk that you gave at the New Zealand Linguistic Society, one of the things that struck me about this talk when you were doing it is that you had participants take selfies of what they wearing at the same points as they were doing recordings. They did a bunch of recordings with different people in different environments, so you could see how they changed how they talked in relation to both what they’re wearing and also who they’re talking to.

Jacq: Absolutely. Because I think all of us have this experience of thinking about how we’re perceived by somebody else. That perception, for many of us, isn’t limited to just our voices. We don’t exist as a voice that wanders around in the ether.

Gretchen: We are not disembodied voices. We are meat suits wearing clothing suits.

Jacq: Yes. Which is super frustrating for many people, too. I call these recordings “in the wild” because I had this idea of David Attenborough following – “And here, he encounters the cis person.” But yeah, knowing that how we choose to present ourselves in that way is gonna change the way that we talk. This is pretty established. Also, the person that we’re talking to is gonna change the way that we talk. If you’re talking to your parent, you’re gonna talk to them differently than if you’re talking to your boss. We know this. But I was particularly interested in the way that these gendered relationships are navigated for nonbinary people.

Gretchen: Do you have an example of how some of your participants talked differently with different people?

Jacq: One example is Istus would play with makeup in really interesting ways. When I had the participants come, they would show me their selfies of these recordings, and I’d say, “Describe this outfit to me,” so I could see what they found really important because what you choose to wear has a lot more different – like, you know what is significant to what you’re wearing versus you don’t know if I’m wearing my lucky socks. That kind of thing.

Gretchen: Yeah, I dunno if your socks are lucky. I dunno if this is, like, the same shirt I’ve been wearing for three days which gives it a different valance to me compared to “Oh, yeah, this is my favourite shirt that I never wear, and I only wear on special occasions.”

Jacq: Istus didn’t have this in a picture, but she described her “stealth outfit,” which was every aspect of the outfit presented very masculine – sort of a suit jacket and loafers and this kind of thing. But every minute aspect of the clothing was actually feminine. The buttons were on – I can’t remember what side buttons are supposed to be on – but the buttons were on –

Gretchen: Neither can I.

Jacq: – the buttons were on –

Gretchen: The feminine side.

Jacq: Yeah, and the shoes were from the women’s section. There was this whole stealth coding that Istus was doing for herself – not for other people unless they’re cued in.

Gretchen: If she needs to go about as someone who doesn’t want her gender remarked on that particular day.

Jacq: Yeah, then she can choose where that gets presented. She would also wear different kinds of makeup. She would describe it as “enough eyeshadow so you can’t see the bags under my eyes” was one of her quotes.

Gretchen: Love it.

Jacq: The other quote was “makeup for the sake of wearing makeup” versus makeup that you would wear sort of a more natural face. You’ll forgive me if I get any of this wrong. I am not a makeup person. It was interesting because the – in her voice – the feminine cues that she used would change based on how overt her makeup was.

Gretchen: This is something that stood out to me about your talk, the makeup thing, because I’m very femme, I’m very cis. To me, I want all of my gender vectors or all of my gender points in the femme tally. But what Istus did in this thing was, if she was wearing makeup, she would do less femme gender vocal cues, like she’s counterbalancing the gender points, and as long as you have enough in the femme category and enough in the masc category, then it balanced in her head for whatever her personal definition of “balanced” is, which isn’t how I approach gender but is a really interesting thing that I learned from your talk.

Jacq: Aw, thank you. I’m glad that you found it interesting. Yes, Istus – and this is a theme throughout all of the participants. I should say that I also interviewed binary participants – men and women – and there were certain themes there, too. I don’t want to leave them all the way out.

Gretchen: Totally. You gotta have a control group.

Jacq: Yeah. But for the nonbinary participants, there was this – in my dissertation, I called it “incongruence” – but this idea that if you want to create some kind of mixed signal or if you wanna create something that isn’t quite in the two boxes that the people who are listening to you maybe have, then you can either take cues from both, or you can try to find some kind of middle ground. Those are two quite different things. Something very overtly feminine in your physical presentation combined with something a little bit less feminine or more masculine in maybe your vocal presentation, that can still get to something that isn’t binary in a way different than being very neutral-sort-of-middle-ground is.

Gretchen: The neutral-middle-ground is like, “I’m just gonna wear a hoodie and jeans because every gender can wear a hoodie and jeans, and then nobody will be able to perceive me as any gender at all,” whereas in a clothing way, doing something that has mixed signals would be like, “Okay, I’m gonna have a beard and also this super sparkly eyeshadow” or something like that.

Jacq: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And that wasn’t quite where any of my particular participants went. But the idea that if you only have these two options, and you need to create a third option, there isn’t only one way to do a third option. There isn’t only one way to be nonbinary. A lot of how you do that, I found in my dissertation, is based on your own personality, which is like, “Oh, surprise, people have agency in how they talk,” and some people don’t like wearing super sparkly eyeshadow.

Gretchen: Totally. But also, sometimes you need to do the academic version of establishing that baseline because you could say, “Well, based on my friends, a lot of them which are nonbinary, people seem to do these strategies,” but having written it down in this academically legible place and gone through and done it with some statistics or something lets you say, “Okay, here’s what we have in terms of what we know now and maybe this would change in another decade if there becomes a more socially legible category of nonbinary-ness.”

Jacq: And I think, also, part of including binary participants in this work is to bring nonbinary people into both an academic conversation that’s already happening, which is, again, that sort of talk of legitimacy and saying, “Here’s an established body of work,” and bringing a “new population” – I’m making finger quotes; they’re not actually new – but bringing a different population – an “understudied” population, let’s say – into the fold, at the same time, that allows you to interrogate what’s already there. We have this whole body of literature that ignores that nonbinary people exist –

Gretchen: But that also doesn’t ask cis people or people that we’re presuming are cis, “How did you know that you’re cis? How do you know your gender? What are you doing to signal your gender with your voice? And how much of that are you doing deliberately?”

Jacq: I think that that’s really valuable, too, the idea that – I mean, there’s nothing that says a cis person isn’t allowed to think about masculinity, or how they present masculinity, or how they present femininity, or what that means. I mean, personally, I think it would be really useful if more cis people did that. If more people just thought about gender in ways that weren’t binary, talking to the binary men and women in my study, I was a little bit surprised, but it was amazing to see – I mean, some people never thought about it. There’s questions about “How do you feel about being a woman?” or being a man, and people said, “I dunno. I never thought about it. It just felt right.” But not everybody. Some of the participants that I spoke to did deeply interrogate their gender at some point in their lives. One of my cis male participants talked about thinking that maybe they were trans for a while and then realising they weren’t. I think the fact that we, as people – and also, we as linguists doing these studies on language – can interrogate even binary gender from these perspectives is really valuable.

Gretchen: This was something that came up in a recent episode that we did about the vowel space and how gender affects the vowel space, which we can link to. One of things that I find neat about that research is that even kids who haven’t gone through puberty yet who still have all identical vowel spaces or vowel spaces with as much variation as they have in heights but nothing specifically affected by the physical changes of puberty are still doing social genders and actually have different vowels based on the genders in their heads even though their bodies aren’t affecting what sounds they can produce yet.

Jacq: That works the other direction, too. We often think of puberty as this thing where a bunch of stuff happens to you, and then you pop out the other end like, talking and looking like –

Gretchen: A gender, now.

Jacq: A gender. You are this. But that’s not – I mean, the variation that almost any given human can produce is so much wider than the constraints of physiology. I’m not the only person to look at this. I know that Viktoria Papp has done really excellent work with transmasc people. Lal Zimman also works with transmasc populations a lot, too. You can take testosterone, and it can thicken your vocal folds, and it can create a drop in pitch, but that’s not what it means to talk like a man if you’re transmasc. That’s not the end of it. At the risk of summing up someone else’s research in two sentences, what you tend to see, I think, in Vietze’s work is a drop, an initial drop, from testosterone, and then it kind of pops back up again with the idea that, as people become more comfortable in their bodies and in their lives and in their situations, there’s less pressure to perform some stereotypical masculinity and more to just be the person they are, the transmasc person they are, or the nonbinary person they are.

Gretchen: That sounds neat. We can link to that study so that if people want to hear more than the two-sentence summary version, they can follow up on that.

Jacq: And Lal Zimman’s work is amazing. Every single thing that Lal has written is fantastic, too.

Gretchen: Yes. Everyone’s in the Lal Zimman fan club. So, you have a corpus, which is delightfully called, I think, “The RAINBO Corpus.”

Jacq: Yeah, “Recorded Audio-visual Interviews with nonbinary and Binary Orators. It’s “RAINBO” without a W.

Gretchen: Oh, and it spells “RAINBO” – that’s so good!

Jacq: For the sake of the acronym.

Gretchen: That’s such a beautiful acronym. You have six nonbinary participants in there, and six binary participants, and they held this speech that you looked at the pitch of it, and you’ve looked at how they do their vowels and things. You also have a talk and a paper, I think, you’re working on that’s co-authored with one of those research participants who then de-anonymised themself from the previous anonymous corpus work that they were in.

Jacq: Yeah.

Gretchen: I find this really interesting because there’s this interesting balancing act in academic between, “Oh, I’ve got a research participant. They’ve got sensitive data. I’m going to preserve their anonymity,” and also, sometimes when people are telling us really interesting things about their lives or their language choices or their identities, giving them credit for that intellectual contribution to the work which names them – yeah, can you talk about this balancing act about participant and researcher collaboration?

Jacq: Absolutely. I would love to. I’ve been thinking about it a lot. I don’t want to portray myself as an expert. There is a whole other body of work where your collaborators, your language consultants, work very closely with the researcher, but that’s not always the same methodology as the bigger picture, what we call “variationist,” studies where we’re trying to look at large groups of people and how they speak. Kaspar is the name of the person that I worked with. And I got their permission before this episode – I asked them how they wanted to be referred, and they said, “Okay.” We’ll call them Kaspar, which is great because that’s their name, so it’s super easy for me to remember.

Gretchen: But they also had a pseudonym in the study originally.

Jacq: Yeah. In the study, if you read my dissertation – which you don’t have to, but if you do – in the study, they were called “Alex.”

Gretchen: Dissertations are notably very long and, often, in the years after a dissertation comes out, people will write some shorter papers that summarise small bits of the dissertation. Keep an eye on Jacq and their website. Maybe there’ll be shorter versions. But if you really wanna read the whole dissertation or skim through it and pick out the bits that look interesting to you, we will link to it.

Jacq: I had set up, for my dissertation, you know, as a – I think there’s something else. Dissertations are a long work, and you’re learning as you go. That’s the point. When you’re planning these ethics and all of the things in planning this dissertation, you go through the process that has already been established. I did that. It’s fine. Kaspar came and was recorded. It ended up, as it happens, after I had done my data collection, Christchurch is not a huge place. Kaspar and I were in the same social circles, and we became friends after the data collection. Every once in a while, we would talk about the work that I was doing and stuff I was studying because they were super interested. They have a background in mathematics, and they’re familiar with linguistics, so it’s not like they knew nothing about linguistics.

Gretchen: So, when you were showing them some pretty graphs, they were like, “Oh, cool, graphs. I like those.”

Jacq: Yeah. And then I can’t remember if I asked them or they offered to do some proofreading before I had submitted it, and I sent them a draft. I got it back, and there were smiley faces and frowny faces on a lot of stuff. Then because we’re friends, we went and hung out and talked about it, and there’s something different. You’re participating in research. You’re getting recorded. And then research comes out. You know that you’re maybe nonbinary. You’re this population. And then you see yourself on a graph that plots your pitch somewhere, and you know what the stereotypes about feminine pitch and masculine pitch are. I mean, I did a bad thing in that sense. I hurt somebody, right, in not earth-shattering ways, I don’t think – or at least Kaspar didn’t tell me it was earth-shattering.

Gretchen: But in frowny face ways, yeah.

Jacq: And we share this perspective of the importance of examining new populations using established methodology and these traditional ways of doing things to grant – whatever you wanna call it – some kind of legitimacy from the academy – or however we wanna navigate this – but then this is still real people that are given little dots or little diamonds and plopped on a graph. I can say in 300 words how this isn’t meant to tell people how gendered they are; this is meant to examine nonbinary people and compare them on equal footing with binary populations, but of course, nonbinary people don’t come to the table with no baggage, with nothing behind them. You come, and you come with a gendered upbringing, a gendered – you exist in a world, right. You can’t just not.

Gretchen: Totally.

Jacq: That was really hard. We had a lot of conversations about that through the course of proofreading a dissertation and submitting it and trying to get to a point. And I didn’t have – because of the way that the ethics works – I couldn’t contact every other participant afterward and get the same insights and things. But it’s not all bad. Kaspar expressed to me how interesting it was and how amazing it was to see their plots there and the joy of seeing themself not in the ASAB cohort that they expected versus the sadness when they came a little bit too close or that kind of thing. We gave a talk about this and, hopefully, a paper that examines that a little bit more. The other benefit is that, now I have a collaborator and a co-author, it means that we can do a lot more really interesting stuff with data.

Gretchen: Well, and if they know all this math, you can do such cool math.

Jacq: And we can track them over time, and we can do new recordings and even stuff about how these interviews with people, or these recordings, are still a snapshot in time. Things aren’t static. People change, and people’s interpretations of themselves are reinvented constantly. I’m really excited. Watch for that paper.

Gretchen: That sounds really cool and really exciting. We will look forward to the Jacq-Kaspar collaboration, Kaspar-Jacq collaboration. You can keep swapping your names for who goes first if you do a whole bunch of different co-authorships like people do.

Jacq: It made me glad that I wasn’t recording myself.

Gretchen: Were you sometimes interviewing or the interlocutor?

Jacq: Yeah. We did these “in the wild” recordings, and then we had the traditional sociolinguistic interview with all of these questions. We recorded me at first thinking there might be accommodation stuff, but then it’s also just like, I can’t transcribe, like, 400 million hours of –

Gretchen: So, “linguistic accommodation” is the thing where, when you’re talking with someone, especially if you like them or you’re trying to get along with them, you talk more like the person you’re talking to, which happens to lots of people lots of the time. I certainly do it. And you were thinking, well, maybe if people are talking more like you when they’re talking with you, then that might shift things, but also, you end up with a lot of data.

Jacq: Yeah, that’s true. It ended up doing a little bit of spot checking. It didn’t seem quite there because of these outsider-insider relationships of I am Canadian sitting in New Zealand interviewing people. There was enough of a gulf that it didn’t seem –

Gretchen: They didn’t all start sounding Canadian when you were interviewing them. I’m shocked.

Jacq: They weren’t like, [stereotypical Canadian accent] “Oh, hey, thanks for interviewing me.”

Gretchen: Maybe this is a good segue actually because you’re a fellow Canadian, hello, “Welcome to the podcast, eh” – [laughter] – who’s been living in New Zealand for nine years now.

Jacq: Yeah, almost a decade.

Gretchen: Amazing. We’ve had a previous interview with Ake Nicholas talking about Cook Islands Māori if people want to hear someone with a more New Zealand accent.

Jacq: Actual New Zealand accent.

Gretchen: An actual New Zealand accent. But this is presumably a linguistic experience for you. Do you wanna say anything about what it’s been like? Do you talk differently to people other than me who don’t have a similar Canadian accent?

Jacq: It’s kind of hard to know. I think there’re a few things. I noticed about four or five years in that I was losing my Canadian raising. We had gone somewhere, and I said, “Aw, look at those three houses.” I was like, “Ah! What did I just do?” Instead of saying /haʊsəz/, I said /haʊzəz/. I was like, “Ugh.” Which is funny because when I lived in Canada, I never noticed Canadian raising. It was one of those things that was so –

Gretchen: So, Canadian raising, which we actually haven’t talked about on Lingthusiasm yet – so maybe someday in the future –

Jacq: What!

Gretchen: – is the thing that is responsible for the differences between how I say the vowel in “house” [noun] versus “house” [verb] or in “height” versus “high” – “height,” “high,” “house,” “house.” I will say, I don’t Canadian raise that much, so it’s a difference in terms of how you say the vowel between /t/ and /d/ or /s/ and /z/. There’re some people who say something like, “about,” more like /əboʊt/. There’s a stereotype that Canadians say /əbʊt/, and that’s not true. I want to correct that right now. People in lots of other English-speaking environments don’t do this Canadian raising, and you noticed that you were stopping doing it. Anecdotally, I also notice people that move to Canada do start doing more Canadian raising, so this seems to be one of the ones that’s flexible in people’s speech.

Jacq: Yeah, I think that’s true. It’s funny because it’s so stereotyped in Canada. I don’t think it’s as strong as the stereotype, but it’s definitely sticky in a weird way. I did lose it. But probably, in this interview, it’s back.

Gretchen: It clicks back in.

Jacq: Yeah.

Gretchen: Any other things that you’ve noticed?

Jacq: I remember when I first landed in New Zealand – so New Zealand is non-rhotic. There’s no R. Words that are spelt E-A-R, like “ear,” and words that are spelt A-I-R, like “air,” have merged, so they’re pronounced the same. I was sitting on the airplane waiting to disembark, and the announcer came on, and they said, “Could everyone exit via the /ɹiəɹ stiəɹz/?”

Gretchen: Oh. [Laughs]

Jacq: I had this moment of, like, cows stacked up at the back of a plane. Like, and it’s sat with me, and I think it’s because the context wasn’t quite enough for me to get – but I was like, “Rear steers? Rear steers. What?”

Gretchen: Well, it’s what you exit the “ear-plane” by, obviously.

Jacq: “When you exit the ear-plane by the rear steers, or alternatively, exit the airplane by the rare stairs,” which are the stairs that they don’t bring out that often.

Gretchen: We have to save the rare stairs and the fine china for guests.

Jacq: Exactly.

Gretchen: That’s exactly the kind of thing that, especially, when you’re hitting something out of context, and they seem to be more fond of using that, so if you weren’t used to that particular phrase, either, it would catch.

Jacq: Yeah, and I mean, you’re also in a new place and all of this, and you’re trying to pay attention because you have to do what the airplane people tell you because that’s the rules. I have one more anecdote that is very deeply only Canadian and New Zealand overlap.

Gretchen: Please, I wanna hear it.

Jacq: Maybe this is only western Canada. We’ll see. So, Gretchen, what do you call the front row of seats in the classroom?

Gretchen: Oh, that’s where the “keeners” sit.

Jacq: That’s where the “keeners” sit, right, that’s the “keener” seats, right?

Gretchen: I dunno if I have “keener seats” specifically as a phrase, but like, absolutely, totally understand you when you say this.

Jacq: So, if somebody’s a “keener,” that’s the person at the front of the class, yeah.

Gretchen: Absolutely, yeah. I have told people about this Canadianism myself.

Jacq: Amazing! I’m glad it’s a super salient Canadianism.

Gretchen: I’ve introduced Lauren to it, in fact.

Jacq: So, it’s not a thing in New Zealand. They don’t have keeners, but New Zealanders say “keen” all the time.

Gretchen: Oh, but for something different.

Jacq: You’ll say – and apologies to any New Zealanders if I get these pragmatically a little bit wrong – but you’ll say, “Ah, I’m going for coffee. Is anyone keen?” Or you might say, “Ah, the movie’s coming out next week,” and someone else might say, “Keen,” like they’re keen to go.

Gretchen: Oh, okay, yeah, I think I could say, “I’m keen to go,” but not “keen” by itself in a phrase like that.

Jacq: No, and I think that my impression – my 8-year-old, 9-year-old Canadian impression – is that you don’t really use “keen” – because it has a little bit of that odd, negative – I mean, it’s a “keener” thing, so unless you’re really claiming –

Gretchen: That you’re a big fan of Star Wars, and you’re a Star Wars keener, and you definitely have to go see the new one.

Jacq: If you’re keen to go to Star Wars, you wanna be in the front row.

Gretchen: Of course! Yeah, okay, yeah, I sort of get that. It’s not as neutral. It’s like you’re really actively excited. You’re not just like, “Oh, yeah, I’d be good to go” or like “I’d be down to go.” “I’d be keen to go” is like, “I’d be so keen to go! That would be great!” not just like, “It’d be fine.”

Jacq: Yeah, but if you’re keen, you’re like, “Yeah, I could” – if you wanted to be extra, you could double up the New Zealandisms and you could be “keen as.”

Gretchen: Oh, yeah, I’ve heard the “as.”

Jacq: You could be “keen as,” but I don’t know – that’s where my knowledge of New Zealand lexical items stops is at “as.”

Gretchen: I love “keener” as a Canadianism because my prof friends will be like, “Oh, one of my keeners came to my office hours today,” and they’ll mean that student who’s always asking really good questions and is really excited to be there and stuff like that. It’s very positive when my prof friends who were all themselves keeners back in the day use it. Maybe some people use it negatively, but I sure don’t know any of them.

Jacq: If you are a keener, then “keener” is quite positive, but maybe less so if you're not.

Gretchen: Maybe less so. So, you finished your PhD, and you’re teaching now. I have been told that you make students stab themselves with toothpicks for science. Can you tell us about that?

Jacq: I would love to tell you about that, with a caveat: I tell students to very carefully try not to stab themselves with toothpicks, but it doesn’t quite translate. I teach phonetics, which involves learning about all of the sounds and how we make them. If you’re a speaker of English, you might be familiar with this little sound called “R.”

Gretchen: R is a sound, yes, that I’m familiar with.

Jacq: The alveolar approximate, the /ɹ/ noise. The R sound, the /ɹ/, can be made about 16 million different ways. There’s something like eight or nine different things that you can do with your mouth that will get you close enough to /ɹ/ for people to understand you.

Gretchen: Oh, wow. When I was learning phonetics, they told us there were two different ways, and there’s actually six or eight of them.

Jacq: There’s two different tongue positions, and that’s where the toothpick comes in. But you can also do – there’s different stuff with the back of your mouth. Some people have lip rounding, and some people don’t. Some people raise this and that – yeah, there’s different ways to do it. But you were right when you were learning phonetics.

Gretchen: But because it all produces approximately the same sound, kids just hear adults making the sound, and they experiment with their mouths to produce The Sound, and because the meat suit part of our throats is kind of squishy, you can manipulate it in different ways and end up with the same thing that comes out.

Jacq: You get close enough. In English, we don’t have a lot of other stuff in that area, too. When you think about it, if you’re a kid, if you think about something like a /p/, if you’re a baby looking at a caregiver going /p/, you can really see that, right, but a /ɹ/, you get a face, and you don’t really know what’s going on.

Gretchen: You just get a blank face. You can’t see what they’re doing. With something like a /k/, you can’t necessarily see what they’re doing, but the sound is very distinct that they’re making. /ɹ/ is this approximate sound, which is why it’s called an “approximant” in the International Phonetic Alphabet because it’s just sort of like, “Eh, I dunno.”

Jacq: Close enough, yeah. What you get is you have this sound where there’s a bunch of different ways to make it, and also a bunch of speakers that don’t really know how they make it. When you say something like a /k/, you make that sound, and you’re like, “Oh, my tongue goes here.” But when you’re making a /ɹ/, it changes – depending on where it is in the word – all this stuff. As you learned in your phonetic class, there are two ways that your tongue can be shaped when you’re making a /ɹ/ sound. This may blow some people’s minds because they never thought about it before and didn’t realise that the other way is possible. The two big ways are – they have a million different names because of course they do – but one is called the “bunched R,” usually.

Gretchen: This is when your R, like the back part of your tongue sort of crunches up or gloms up into a bit of a shape at the back that doesn’t actually touch the roof of your mouth.

Jacq: The back of your tongue is all crunched up, and the front of it is down at the bottom of your mouth. The other way to do it is often called the “retroflex R,” or the “curly R,” so you have bunch-y R and curly R. The curly R – the retroflex R – the front of your tongue is curled up and back a little bit.

Gretchen: It’s almost like the tip of the bottom of your tongue is touching, or almost touching, the roof of your mouth.

Jacq: Yes. Which one do you make? It’s hard to –

Gretchen: I know which one I make!

Jacq: Awesome! One of the important points of science is confirmatory analysis. You should replicate this finding and see if it still holds true. If you wanna know which R you make, there’s a way that you can do this with just a toothpick. It’s really easy. All you do is you take a toothpick, a clean one – and make sure you wash your hands – and then you take your toothpick, and you make an R sound – /ɹ/ – or you can pretend you’re a dog and go [imitates dog growl], something like that, just make your /ɹ/ noise. Then you take your toothpick, and you rest it on your bottom teeth or however you wanna – kind of have it centrally into your mouth – and as you go /ɹ/, slowly and carefully, and not stab-ily, put the toothpick into your mouth, and then go, “bleh,” stick your tongue out. The toothpick will either be touching the top of your tongue or the bottom of your tongue.

Gretchen: Whoa! And this tells you which R you have?

Jacq: Yes. And if it’s touching the bottom of your tongue, you’re making a retroflex – you’re making a curly R. And if it’s touching the top of your tongue, you’re making a bunched R.

Gretchen: So, you’re either a curler or a buncher, and you can tell this based on which side you are. I actually went looking for toothpicks so that I could try this and ended up finding a cotton swab, like a Q-Tip, before I saw my toothpicks, and so I tried this with a cotton swab and did not stab myself. This is the safety conscious version you can do if you like because it also works.

Jacq: As long as it’s clean and your hands are clean, that’s a good, safe way to do it.

Gretchen: I’m a buncher, which I thought I was, and I have just confirmed that.

Jacq: Anecdotally, in Canada, it was usually about 50/50 when we go through classes, or we try it. This is in Alberta.

Gretchen: And in New Zealand is it also 50/50, or is it different?

Jacq: In New Zealand, there are a lot more bunchers. I think this might have to do with New Zealand being non-rhotic. I don’t have a paper on this. I don’t know anything. But there’s also a lot less lip rounding. In Canada, lip rounding is almost universal, like it’s on Rs a lot.

Gretchen: Yeah, I lip round.

Jacq: But in New Zealand, that’s not the case. Most people don’t round their lips.

Gretchen: Jacq, thank you so much for joining us on the podcast. As we ask at the end of every interview, “If you could leave people knowing one thing about linguistics, what would it be?”

Jacq: It would be that you’re the boss of your language. How you communicate with people – it’s all on you. People can tell you how they think you should talk. Even linguists can say, “Well, this is how people talk.” But if you’re not feeling it, do something different. You can change it. You can do whatever you want, communicate however you wanna communicate. Don’t let anyone tell you what to do.

[Music]

Gretchen: For more Lingthusiasm and links to all the things mentioned in this episode, go to lingthusiasm.com. You can listen to us on all of the podcast platforms or at lingthusiasm.com. You can get transcripts of every episode on lingthusiasm.com/transcripts. You can follow @lingthusiasm on all the social media sites. You can get scarves with lots of linguistics patterns on them including the IPA, branching tree diagrams, bouba and kiki, and our favourite esoteric Unicode symbols, plus other Lingthusiasm merch – like our “Etymology isn’t Destiny” t-shirts and aesthetic IPA posters – at lingthusiasm.com/merch. You can find our co-host, Lauren Gawne, on social media, and her blog is Superlinguo. Links to my social media can be found at gretchenmcculloch.com. My blog is AllThingsLinguistic.com. My book about internet language is called Because Internet. You can find our guest, Jacq Jones, on their website at jacq.land – that’s J-A-C-Q-dot-L-A-N-D. Lingthusiasm is able to keep existing thanks to the support of our patrons. If you wanna get an extra Lingthusiasm episode to listen to every month, our entire archive of bonus episodes to listen to right now, or if you just wanna help keep the show running ad-free, go to patreon.com/lingthusiasm or follow the links from our website. Patrons can also get access to our Discord chatroom to talk with other linguistics fans and be the first to find out about new merch and other announcements. Recent bonus episodes include spoonerisms, mondegreens, and eggcorns; secret codes and the joys of cryptic word puzzles; and inner voice, mental pictures, and other shapes for our thoughts. Can’t afford to pledge? That’s okay, too. We also really appreciate it if you can recommend Lingthusiasm to anyone in your life who’s curious about language. Lingthusiasm is created and produced by Gretchen McCulloch and Lauren Gawne. Our Senior Producer is Claire Gawne, our Editorial Producer is Sarah Dopierala, our Production Assistant is Martha Tsutsui-Billins, and our Editorial Assistant is Jon Kruk. Our music is “Ancient City” by The Triangles.

Jacq: Stay lingthusiastic!

[Music]

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