#no thrawn without zahn

[greenysnarl]

Create for @thrawns-babygirl 💙

Legend Version:

The Canon Version: He tries to impress Vanto by choosing Oppenheimer, but actually wants to go and see Barbie.

In the end they'll go to see both😁

(second version)

[greenysnarl]

I LOVE THEM. ç___ç

YOUR ART!!! ⭐⭐⭐⭐ESPECIALLY ELI!!!!! ⭐⭐⭐⭐im now so curious now about your AU ⭐

Sometimes a beard is great :3

[shoulderholsterfreak]

Thrawn in the books (legends AND canon): there is an evil force, a nigh-unstoppable wave of doom coming to destroy or enslave the entire galaxy. I have devoted my career and my life to the prevention of trillions of needless deaths. I have sacrificed everything—including my own happiness and humanity—and sold my soul to the devil in order to attain the position and power necessary to protect those who depend on me.

Thrawn in Ahsoka: screw preventing an extra-galactic threat, I’m leading the zombie hoard to be that threat!

[florafaunaandeldritchhorrors]

after opening with planetary rings made out of purgill bones, you could put anything in the rest of the episode and i would call it the best star wars of the year

[grandmofftarkinsuggestions]

screaming and crying and pulling myself up by the bootstraps and forcing myself to sniveling bawling howling read the death star novel. i’m sure it’s going to be great by the end but like hooggh it’s taking everything out of me to read it.

[greenysnarl]

I finished the sixth (and final) book in this exalogy somewhat sneakily. Almost in silence. I say "almost," because there is the small group of friends (readers like me) listening and crying badly with me.

BUT, apart from them THE SILENCE. I finished it months ago. I put it on the bookshelf next to the others and looked at it for a while, like you do with a friend who's leaving and you don't know if you'll see again. The point is that there is so much in there. So many stories left there, and so many emotions that I happen to wander back to it with my mind. I can't let it go and think that it's all over. It is certainly not without its flaws: the absence of character descriptions (alien and otherwise) is one of them. The way Vader was described in Alliaces was another (In my opinion).

Yes sure, Thrawn from this canon comes out a fine character, but in my heart it is others who take up all the space. Some appeared only a few pages, some more. No matter: I miss them so much. 

Whole lines left open, to which my imagination flies by :

- Who was there with his brother? - In what scenario does the 11th Fleet move after Yavin? - Will they have succeeded in protecting the GAU Vaults? - Will they have deciphered the "secret" of Vah'nya? - How is the Uingali's Task progressing? - What happens on Aurora? - Have they been able to give what he deserves (A BEATDOWN) to a certain Patriarch?

A couple of things have answers hinted at in the Legend books, BUT I would like to see the whole thing repurposed to the Canon, its novelties and changes in terms of characters and their characterizations.

I am really hoping FORWARD, for a "doughnut" (who knows, knows). I hope for it very strongly. Meanwhile, I prepare myself for the suffering we'll face in Ahsoka. May warrior's fortune be with us all.

rereading my heart break book yet again

[nobie]

A mutual of mine met Timothy Zahn at Comic Con Revolution last weekend. We scream about Thrawn all the time, so I was really excited for her to meet him! It was your usual fan interaction, but something that he told her really stuck out to me. It made me kind of sad too.

He said "If they [Lucasfilm] ever want to continue his story, I'm ready and waiting." (the context: my friend asked whats to come for Thrawn). Thats not verbatim, but the fact that Lucasfilm has not approached him about his OC confirms to me they wrote all his show appearances without even a glance in Zahn's direction.

You could come to that conclusion on your own bc of this "Heir to the Empire" characterization they've put him in. (The legends are great but not canon anymore and Filoni is back on his ignoring canon novels bs)

The fact that this came directly from TIMOTHY FCKN ZAHN himself makes it even more maddening.

[greenysnarl]

I share this post to the core 💙

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[generallemarc]

"It's amazing that Disney bought a money-printing machine and somehow managed to fuck it up."

-A comment on the inevitable Cr1tikal video about Acolyte that just about sums up what Disney has managed to do with 12 years of control over the franchise. Well, make that 11 years-they had legacy products like the then-final Clone Wars season and a few last Expanded Universe books that were too far along to cancel that they could make money from without having been involved in them. Kinda terrifying that, with the sole exceptions of Rebels(mostly) and the new Thrawn trilogy, those were the high points of Disney's tenure, and all they did was inherit them. Hell, both those exceptions I just mentioned were also inherited talent from two of the alltime greats in Star Wars storytelling; Dave Filoni and Timothy Zahn. The Venn Diagram of Star Wars things Disney have made on their own and Star Wars things Disney have made that are good isn't a Venn Diagram at all-just two circles separate from each other.

[amandamadeathing]

I watched a video criticizing Tales of the Empire on YouTube. (Good! Let's let the hate run through my echo chambers). The speaker, who was too chickenshit to show their face saved most of their criticism for the Barriss Offee story. I agree with this: Being shishkabobbed by a lightsaber seems to only be fatal to Qui Gon Jin.

The rest of his argument turned cringe when they started down the "DiSnEy STaR WarS iz wOKE!! Dave Baloney is going to make a Star Wars 'A-Force' movie starring Rey! THat mAkEs ME aNGrY!" I paraphrase. Rey's Jedi Order should not have Clone Wars-Mandalorian characters, as was his thesis. But if Filoni is the raging feminist ruining Star Wars here is another irksome point from us Thrawn-Zahn fankids:

The 6½* canon Zahn/Thrawn books are FULL of strong women, any of whom would be great to tap into as protagonists, starting with (messed up!) the Sky-Walker program, Thrawn's best Chiss friends being women, many female senior officers, up to the Empire's Faro and Hammerly.

*I count Outbound Flight, as a ½ canon, a book I love. I love that Timothy Zahn underhandedly re-canonized it. RIP Thrass.

FILONI vs BOOKS

Filoni: I finally read them. Now we can make Thrawn the right way. You see, we'll make him he villan he was in the books: butal, ruthless and-

Some guy: Uh, Dave, I think you've read the wrong books. Those are legend... besides Thrawn isn't-

Filoni: What?! I spended weeks reading them... forget it we'll still do this anway. How much of a diffrent character an he be? ...

Tales of the empire:

Thrawn being loyal to the empire for real

No Eli Vanto (sorry Pellaeon but you shouldn't have been there)

Morgen suddently is the mind behind Thrawns Tie fighter project

No Karyn Faro

And where the actuall f*** comes Rukh at this point? (I dont remember him being at Thrawn side in the first book, pls correct me if I'm wrong)

The fandom: GET YOUR SH*T TOGETTHER FILONI!

[bonaesperanza]

Thalias from the Thrawn Ascendancy trilogy is how you do a female character with "traditionally feminine" virtues correctly.

The culture of the Ascendancy involves using young girls - the only Force sensitives their race has, since they all lose their Force sensitivity when they enter puberty - as ship navigators necessary to navigating the chaotic part of space that they live in. These girls are taken from their families at a young age and raised by a series of caregivers, and just like a bunch of plenty of carers IRL a lot of them are dogshit at their job. As someone who's worked similar jobs and watched other people work similar jobs, Timothy Zahn is BRILLIANT at portraying all of this - it gives me feelings like I can't describe. If you've ever seen a mean preschool teacher harranguing their charges or a shitty foster parent who doesn't treat their foster kids as individuals or anyone of the sort, you will feel this in your bones. Zahn goes hard on the "children are people" themes in this trilogy and I love love love this - it really means a lot to me to see a man known for his military and engineering competence porn stuff put so much thought and care into portraying caregiving as the important and complicated task that it is without coming off as sexist or patronizing towards it.

Anyway, Thalias is one such navigator, but even though most of them want nothing to do with the whole trauma-inducing system once they grow out of it, Thalias ends up returning as a caregiver and puts so much effort, compassion and logical thought into it that it makes me cry tears of joy. She draws on her own experiences but is quick to course correct when she realizes that Che'ri's experiences are different from her own (Thalias loved to read as a kid and still finds it comforting, Che'ri hates reading), she treats Che'ri with empathy and gives her as much autonomy and independence as she is allowed to. She uses a scientific method to figure out how the navigator powers work and adjust Che'ri's work routine accordingly - something no one has ever thought to do. She advocates for Che'ri with the rest of the ship's crew. She's amazing, and Zahn also makes sure to show how HARD it can be at times rather than just make her a perfect mind reader who always knows what her charge is thinking and what to say or do.

She's also kinda flawed - she seems to have an unhealthy obsession with Thrawn because he was once nice to her when she was a miserable kid in the throes of the shitty navigator system, and it comes off as kind of weird or cringe at times, and that's a GOOD thing in my book because it makes her character more 3D.

ALSO, the really nice part of it is that these books are filled to the brim with cool female characters that all feel really really different from each other, so Thalias being the nurturing, diplomatic type doesn't feel like Zahn sending some kind of message - the other prominent character is Ar'alani, a clever military woman who's a natural leader, excellent at handling her subordinates and recognizing their talents, excellent at handling politics even though she hates it, excellent at improvising on the fly, and also a kind and loyal friend. A lot of the other soldier or officer types are also women, and Zahn's other works also have a shitton of varied and cool women, so you feel safe in the knowledge that anything Thalias says or does is indicative of Thalias as an individual and not some vague idea of what women are like that the author has.

I also love how her character provides a contrast to all the "necessary evil" and "people are assets"-type thinking that a lot of the Ascendancy's more military types endorse (which make up a large percentage of the main cast, since this is mil scifi after all) - her conversation with Samakro about this is just chef's kiss to me. I feel like it's cool that we get this kind of POV because to me it serves as confirmation that Zahn knows what he's doing here - he's not being a stupid edgelord fanboy in love with the concept of doing shitty things for the greater good, he's just keenly observing how different people approach life and how all of these sorts of thinking are very useful in certain situations and deeply stupid in others. And the topic is treated with zero smugness - I've read things where similar arguments are used as a way of showing how wise and perfect one of the characters is and how stupid the other one is (coughvorkosigansagacough), but here everyone is treated with respect and empathy and consideration.

THALIAS SUPREMACY!!!

[third-generation-female-warrior]

Rules: answer + tag 9 people you want to get to know better and/or catch up with

Was tagged by @nightfall-1409!

___

Favorite color: Yellow.

Currently reading: So, I literally just did my first book haul in over a year today, so I picked up:

The High Republic: Convergence by Zoraida Cordova

Empire of Exiles by Erin M. Evans

Thrawn by Timothy Zahn

Can't Spell Treason without Tea by Rebecca Thorne

So, I don't know which one is gonna be the first non-fanfiction book that I've read in a hot second, but it'll probably be Empire of Exiles since the sequel, Relics of Ruin, is already out, and I like the author, they're really good with characters!

Currently Watching: It's a tie between Ghost Adventures, The Acolyte and Doctor Who rn... I'm thinking about watching Bridgerton because I like horny stuff and I've also been wanting to get into period romances.

Currently craving: Deep fried chicken legs and peach tea. I am not from the American south.

Coffee or tea? Depends on the day, the mood. When I'm in a writing/morning/working mood, coffee. When I want something sweet and hot but not milk, it'll be tea. Maybe I'll make some peach tea and take it to work with me tomorrow...

No Pressure Tagging! @ninjamelissajulien @happydragon @twinsunstars @orion-tyche

[heirtotheempire]

As I read through the Ascendency trilogy, it is becoming more and more clear that the Chiss Ascendency is as hateful as the Empire. And it's odd how few people call that out. I think it is because Zahn does a fantastic job at hiding it through Chiss POV, but even then, the Chiss are still incredibly xenophobic and controlling. Yes, this includes Thrawn, he isn't the saint that so many people like to paint him as and frankly could be argued as worse.

I keep thinking about Ar'alani admitting she never saw non-Chiss as people. She is brilliant and kind, but only to other Chiss. We view her in a purely positive light because the POVs in these books are primarily Chiss, who agree with her. Of course her mindset is normal amongst Chiss, of course it isn't questioned, of course Ar'alani herself never questions it despite her experience off-world. It takes a direct and pretty personal interaction for her to think twice, and even then it is difficult for her to accept the humanity of a non-Chiss. They are lesser in her eyes. They are lesser in the eyes of most, if not all, of the Chiss.

It is fascinating, it really is. It's an interesting look into a xenophobic society without the initial hate from the reader. Because xenophobia is born out of misunderstanding and perpetuated systems of ignorance. If a similar situation was told but through the eyes of Imperial officers, fewer people would be willing to see the nuances. Because Empire=Bad and anyone associating with it is also Bad, right?

But, propaganda and cycles of ignorance are also to blame. Not every Imperial Officer was born hating aliens. Hell, even TARKIN started out incredibly sympathetic to alien species according to the canon novel by James Luceno. But his family taught him otherwise, just as the Chiss Ascendency teaches its own children see other species as lesser.

This mentality from the Ascendency is also seen in Thrawn: Treason with how Eli Vanto is treated simply for being human. The majority of officers hate his existence, insist he must prove himself (despite being at a lower rank than he was at when with the Empire), and are distrustful of him. Very similar to how Ronan treats Thrawn in the same novel.

This isn't, like, a call to love Chiss characters any less, but it's a bit odd to imply that Thrawn, or any other Chiss, would be against the Empire for the same reasons the Rebellion is. The Ascendency doesn't like the Empire because it could encroach on their rule, their space- not because it's xenophobic and oppresses too many people to count. The two systems are remarkably similar, which may be part of why Thrawn was inclined to help the Empire. It is familiar, and a system Thrawn himself has never opposed, even without taking Legends into account.

(SIDE NOTE: PLEASE DO NOT BRING UP SPOILERS FOR GREATER GOOD OR LESSER EVIL ON THIS POST. I AM STILL READING THOSE BOOKS AND WOULD LIKE TO ENJOY THEM SPOILER-FREE)

[empress-violetlight]

True, but the non-Zahn lore has a TON of inaccuracies, like other writers not formatting Chiss names right, despite the Hand of Thrawn duology making it quite clear through the example of Thrawn - Mitth'raw'nuruodo, thinking Chiss reach physical maturity at 10 years old, (ex. the character of Shawnkyr Nuruodo in the New Jedi Order books -- could have been a much better character if they had given her a real Chiss name and a personality), outright ignoring the Empire of the Hand and/or conflating it with the Chiss Ascendency even though again, Zahn made it VERY clear they were two completely different factions, just plain not doing their homework.

The Dark Nest trilogy is especially bad for that, not to mention expecting the readers to root for Starship Troopers-style bugs over the Chiss! Yeah, that's not happening!

If it's not from Zahn, take it with a grain of salt.

Timothy Zahn is the Star Wars writer I respect most because he wrote a trilogy of 3 beefy ass books about Thrawn, then all of it got retconned. And later they call him up like “hey do you want to do that again, we promise we won’t retcon them this time 🥺” and Zahn goes “sure” and writes six more books about Thrawn and the Chiss Ascendancy and his “friend ;)” Eli Vanto, giving him complex motivations for his service to the Empire as well as goals outside it. And then Ahsoka series went on to ignore all of it entirely, in favour of “heehoo blue man Evil and Smart”. Mr Zahn cannot catch a break

[david-talks-sw]

An argument I hear from time to time is the following:

"I don't care that this novel is considered Legends, if it was canon when George Lucas was in charge of Lucasfilm, it's still canon to me now. Whatever George says is what counts, I don't care what Disney says."

Putting the Expanded Universe's Star Wars and George Lucas' Star Wars in the same basket. And that's, uh... inaccurate.

So without further ado, let's explore:

George Lucas’ involvement in the Expanded Universe

Early years of the EU...

When the first bit of EU content came out in the form of the novel Splinter of the Mind's Eye, Lucas was too busy working on the films, so Alan Dean Foster wrote it by himself (which explains why Luke and Leia's relationship plays out romantically).

After the movies came out, when new material was going to be created, George told Lucas Licensing and other authors that the Prequel era was off-limits to write about, because he might tell that story one day.

Beyond that, they could go to town and write sequels, for instance. After all, part of why Star Wars was created was to let people's imagination run wild and George was happy to let other artists play in the sandbox he created.

That said, things were very clear from the get-go.

These weren't his stories.

The Thrawn books, Dark Empire, all this material was explicitly just Tom Veitch and Timothy Zahn and whoever else's creation. Not George's, who was described by Lucas Licensing's Lucy Autrey Wilson as "not very involved".

The most he did was answers "OK/Not OK" questionnaires about what the EU writers could or couldn't write.

Telling Yoda's backstory? Not OK.

Telling Han's backstory, between the Prequel and Ep. 4? OK.

Having someone wear Vader's suit after his death? Not OK.

The Emperor returning in a clone body? OK.

So that's it. That was his involvement in the 90s.

Him saying "don't write something set during this/that period".

"OK/Not OK" questionnaires.

It's also worth mentioning he didn't approve of Mara Jade, Luke's wife in the EU. In his mind, "Jedi don't marry".

Rather, the character herself wasn't an issue... until she married Luke. When Timothy Zahn asked for Luke and Mara to be married or engaged, back in 1993, Lucasfilm initially vetoed the idea.

According to Brian Jay Jones (author of "A Life", George Lucas' biography), in 1995 George convened a 'Star Wars Summit' wherein he gathered licensees and international agents to Skywalker Ranch to reinforce "the need for him to maintain quality control, especially in the areas of publishing, where some characters—such as Luke Skywalker, who’d been given a love interest in a fiery smuggler named Mara Jade—were living lives far beyond the ones he had written for them in the original trilogy".

Sources:

During the Prequels...

George Lucas was writing and directing three movies with large themes, shot almost back-to-back, commuting between Australia and California. That's hard enough as it is.

Also, in the 90s, most movies were still shot on film. During the making of Phantom Menace, Lucas shot parts of the film by combining prototype digital Sony cameras and using them in combination with videotapes, rather than shooting on film.

For Attack of the Clones, George worked with Panavision and Sony to develop fully digital cameras, which eventually became the standard.

As if that wasn't enough, by making the Prequels, Lucas and ILM were also creating fully-digitized worlds (Coruscant, Geonosis) and characters (Jar Jar, Yoda) and laying the groundwork for the CGI technology that has now become essential for today's blockbusters.

Having established all this...

Do you really think he had the time or the patience to read through a bunch of novels and guidebooks?!

Simply put: George Lucas was too busy revolutionizing cinema to be involved in the development of the EU.

So if you ask George who Tahl or Vitiate are, or what the Stark Hyperspace War or a vapor manifold are, if you ask him to recite you the Sith Code... he'll grumble and say "heck if I know".

He outright admitted that fans know more Star Wars lore than him.

Because SOMEBODY ELSE wrote that stuff.

And he let them do it because:

It made money. A lot of money, especially after TPM came out. Money that could fund his next films. You don't mess with licensing. Hell, it's why he was so cool with there being all those Star Wars parodies.

He didn't see those stories as canon anyway, so it couldn't hurt. He saw them as a separate universe, an alternate timeline wherein the films happened ALONG with all these other tales.

So associating the EU content with Lucas is unreasonable. He was too busy, so he just let Howard Roffman, Lucy Autrey Wilson, Sue Rostoni and Lucas Licensing do their thing and crank out new stories and transmedia content for the fans.

It was a one-way relationship. The licensing parallel universe needed to have some internal consistency AND adhere to what Lucas established in the new films movies (which was difficult because they weren't involved in the production process), but he didn't need to be in line or consistent with anything they established.

Now, George did set some guidelines/boundaries and there were obviously do's and don'ts. But once those boundaries were set and the brief was established, the authors had a lot of freedom and, like, 99% of their interaction was with their editors from the respective publishing houses (Scholastic, Del Rey, Dark Horse) and the folks at Lucas Licensing.

George was only really brought in to sign off on, like, some of the major plot points only once in a blue moon. Stuff like:

"Let's make a Maul novel". George would go "fine, just keep him mysterious."

"What species should Plagueis be?" George: "he could be a Muun, here's concept art."

Nothing more than that. Again: the Expanded Universe was other storyteller's interpretation of what Lucas had created.

Sometimes, it was spot on and it aligned with George's vision.

Other times, this additional lore was created by writers who didn't know what he was doing with the Prequels, so they were in the dark regarding certain plot points.

And then you have the authors who absolutely disagreed with George's vision of the Prequels, or of Star Wars, in general, but wanted to engage with the material nonetheless.

Which is why, whilst sometimes the EU fixed some plot-holes, sometimes the EU had inconsistencies.

Inconsistencies such as Ki-Adi Mundi being a Knight on the Council, who is married and has kids (when the Jedi being prohibited from marrying is a major plot point in the Prequels)...

… or the Jedi being essentially superhuman (when one of the narrative reasons Qui-Gon is killed is to show that the Jedi are mortals, not supermen)…

... or other stuff like Mace having a blue lightsaber for a period (because who the hell knew purple was an option?!) or some Jedi having red lightsabers, or Sith Lords being able to become ghosts after death, when that's a feat you can only achieve by being selfless.

It's also why you get conflicting definitions of what the Jedi call "attachment" or conflicting narratives trying to reframe midi-chlorians as a cold, intentionally-flawed way of seeing the Force (when they're meant to be a beautiful metaphor for symbiosis and how the Force works).

And it makes sense that some of this stuff wouldn't track, considering how Lucas stated multiple times that he didn't have anything to do with it, that it was a separate universe from his own...

Safe to say that if George had any involvement in the EU, it was so minimal that he, himself, didn't count it as "involvement".

Additional sources:

Later years of the EU...

After the Prequels were over and done with, Lucas created The Clone Wars with Dave Filoni. At first, he'd just suggest a few storylines, but he quickly got VERY involved in the whole process. Far more involved than he ever was with EU content.

And y'know... Dave Filoni is a massive Star Wars fan and an avid EU reader. So, from time to time, Filoni would bring up EU material for Lucas to consider during the story conferences, and they'd look at what was out there together.

But it's important to note that George's stance toward the EU didn't change and became a rule for everyone on the writing staff: the EU content was nothing more than a pool of "fun what-if ideas" that they could draw inspiration from.

If they could, they'd try to not mess with continuity... but if the story called for it, they could retcon anything without batting an eye. Because it wasn't canon to them.

It's why author Karen Traviss quit working with Lucasfilm after the Mandalorians were retconned into pacifists in The Clone Wars.

The only things that were truly canon were:

George Lucas' own word.

The movies.

Previously established The Clone Wars lore.

And that's it.

Everything else was somebody's else's concern. Not George's.

Sources:

This way of seeing the EU continued all the way to the time shortly before George sold the company to Disney as his drafts for the Sequels featured:

no Jacen, Jaina or Anakin Solo (Han and Leia's kids from the EU),

a still-alive Chewbacca (who died, later in the EU),

no "New Jedi Order".

Every version of George's Sequels ignored the EU.

Which would explain why the EU reboot was planned in the summer of 2012 (when Lucas was in charge)!

I'll repeat: the EU reboot was planned months BEFORE George Lucas sold the company to Disney.

Because of course it was! It's a natural result of 30 years' worth of content that's so intermeshed that it would stop future artists - namely George himself - from creating anything else.

Sources:

Exceptions to the rule:

1. Comics (kinda)

He did read the comics. Or at least, he gave them a glance.

Aside from the fact that he grew up reading comics, understand that George Lucas is a visual artist, first and foremost.

That's what he's about and that's what he loves, that's what speaks to him. There's a reason his upcoming Museum of Narrative Art will feature comic panels and pages of all kind.

During pre-production on Attack of the Clones and Revenge of the Sith, Lucas had the art team draw concept art before a script had ever been written so he'd have ideas for set-pieces.

Later on, J.W. Rinzler pitched him the idea of adapting his early drafts for Star Wars into comic form. Lucas' initial reaction was going "hell no". Rinzler had concept art made…

… and George took one look and was on board.

So it's not a stretch to assume that a book telling a story through beautiful drawings would catch his attention more than a novel.

Case in point: He knew who Quinlan Vos was and was enamored with the character. He knew Aayla enough to put her in Attack of the Clones after seeing a cover of Republic by John Forster featuring her (below, left).

(although, it's worth pointing out that he doesn't call her out by name a single time, in the director's commentary of the Attack of the Clones, she's just the "Twi'Lek Jedi" and her inclusion was done mainly to add more diversity to the Jedi fighting in the arena)

Over a decade later, when the comic Star Wars #7 came out in 2015, Lucasfilm acquired artist Simone Bianchi's original 20 pages and cover art for George, so he could feature it in his the Museum of Narrative Art:

So at the very least, he looked at the comics and admired the visuals.

Whether he actually read the comics in detail or just skimmed through most of them because he liked the pretty pictures (likelier, imo) is an entirely different matter.

Sources:

2. Video-Games (kinda)

Lucas would periodically check in on the status of LucasArts games, lending creative input and advice.

Sometimes, his advice ranged from "weird" to "he's gotta be fucking with us, right?"

Apparently, he advised the team developing Star Wars: The Force Unleashed that they dub Starkiller "Darth Insanius" or "Darth Icky".

And you know what? I have no trouble believing it.

Firstly because if you're going by the idea that he gave no fucks about the EU, then of course he'll come up with "meh" names. But also, this is the same guy who created "Winkie" in 2012/2013, the character who'd go on to be named "Rey".

He also told the team creating Star Wars: 1313 that he wanted a fresh face as the main character, then only weeks before the game was announced he went "let's make it Boba Fett".

Finally... the cancelled Darth Maul game by Red Fly.

Codenamed “Damage”, then “Battle of the Sith Lords”. Think Batman: Arkham City meets Star Wars.

Red Fly pitched it as a coming of age story where we see Maul be kidnapped, tortured, eventually joining the Dark Side, and ending in TPM. Then they had interactions with LucasArts and found out Maul survived his fight with Obi-Wan.

The game went through several iterations, partly because the people at Red Fly were kept in the dark about the developments in The Clone Wars (Season 4 wasn't out yet), and even when some tidbits came out and they knew characters like Savage Oppress and Death Watch would be included, they didn't get more details.

Whatever. They do their best to make something from what they're told. Then they have a meeting with George. As this GameInformer article explains:

“A friendly George Lucas entered the room and was eager to hear the pitch from Red Fly’s creatives. “Before they could finish their spiel, Lucas cut them off, stood up, walked over to [two Sideshow Collectibles statues of Darth Maul and Darth Talon], rotated them to be facing the same direction, pushed them together, and said ‘They’re friends!’” adds the source. “He wanted these characters to be friends, and to play off of each other. […] The problem with the idea of Maul and Talon teaming up for a buddy cop-like experience was that they were separated by over 170 years […] When this vast time divide was brought up to Lucas’ attention, he brushed off the notion of it not working, and said that it could instead be a descendant of Darth Maul or a clone of him.”

So now the game is about a descendant of Maul, guided by his ancestor and fighting a redesigned Darth Krayt, etc?

The game was eventually cancelled when George sold the company.

Worth pointing out that this was circa 2010/2011... around the time that George started working on his Sequels, according to Jett Lucas. And we know that the treatment for the Sequels that Lucas presented to Bob Iger featured old man Maul and Darth Talon as the villains of the trilogy... take from that what you will.

3. The Prequel novelizations (kinda)

They were all given a copy of Lucas' screenplay.

While most of their work was with Sue Rostoni, Lucy Autrey Wilson, and Howard Roffman on the Lucasfilm team (like some of the other authors), Terry Brooks, R.A. Salvatore and Matthew Stover all spent a bit of time with George before writing their respective novels.

George told Terry Brooks to write some additional material for Anakin Skywalker because there wasn't enough of that in the movie. He was shown rushes from the set, they "opened the safe" for him. When Terry had further questions re: midi-chlorians and the history of the Sith, George goes on a 30-minute monologue about all that.

R.A. Salvatore had a 45-minute interview with him that turned into a 3-hour chat. He was able to go back to the Ranch a few times during the writing process, and one of those times George chatted with him and his wife during lunch. He was shown various cuts of the film and concept art.

Matthew Stover and George talked for a whole afternoon (I'm gonna go out on a limb and assume he was also shown the other stuff like some cuts/deleted scenes, concept art, etc etc).

Was there a line-edit of the ROTS novel from Lucas? Regarding the Revenge of the Sith novelization, some people bring up the idea that George Lucas did a line-edit on the book because Stover wrote this statement on theforce.net:

That said...

Stover, also stated that Lucas told him to write whatever he wanted as long as it was good,

he also said he didn't actually see Lucas type the edits,

an anonymous Del Rey editor stated on theforce.net that the notion that George edited the novel himself is "extremely incorrect".

There's enough "reasonable doubt" for the argument to be made that the Revenge of the Sith novelization was edited the same way as any other Star Wars novel, rather than by George himself.

The fact remains, though, that it was a novel written by someone who understood the source material, as it was explained to him in detail by George Lucas himself (a luxury many SW authors never got).

Lucas' backstory for the Sith in the TPM novel: If Pablo Hidalgo is to be believed, the backstory of the Sith, as detailed in the Phantom Menace novelization, came from Lucas.

(Obviously, I'd allow for the very likely possibility that there was some embellishment by Terry Brooks)

20 years later, however, it seems George decided to stick to the idea that there was no war between the Jedi and the Sith.

Final thought:

A lot of people will insist that George was involved in spite of all the above-posted evidence. Saying stuff like:

"But [X person] said that it was canon..."

Sometimes, they’ll link you to this whole website collecting quotes of other people saying "the EU was canon" (never George Lucas except for, like, one/two quotes where he acknowledges the existence of Sequel books which MUST mean he saw them as canon, right?) and...

On the one hand... of course they'll all vaguely say he's "involved" and tip-toe around the subject; it's technically true and, again, they're trying to make money. It's a business, folks.

On the other... yeah? Duh. Of course it was canon to Lucas Licensing and the authors who wrote for the EU. But it wasn't canon to George. And I just gave you a whole bunch of quotes directly from him and/or the same people quoted on that website, all confirming that he didn't see them as canon and he wasn't involved (or barely was).

Other times, we're straight-up approaching "burying head in the sand/lalalala I'm not listening!" levels of justifications.

Like, we just talked about the Sith's origins, right?

I remember a while ago, this Star Wars YouTuber was reviewing this quote from Lucas, in The Star Wars Archives: 1999-1995:

The YouTuber's reaction the second after reading the quote is saying:

"And of course, what George is referring to, here, is the Battle of Ruusan and the Brotherhood of Darkness using the Thought Bomb created by Lord Khan to kill the Jedi Lord Hoth and…"

My guy! You read a whole excerpt that started with "there was never a war between the Jedi and the Sith" and the words "Ruusan" or "Thought Bomb" never being mentioned once in the passage (or in the TPM novelization)... and concluded that George was referring to the Jedi/Sith Battle of Ruusan? And all that other EU stuff?

See what I mean, folks?

Now, look, I grew up with these stories (heck, I grew up with these stories in three different languages). So I get it. I know they're awesome.

And, yes, there is a difference between the kind of content we used to get and the content we're getting now (for one, lightsabers used to be lightsabers, in video-games, not baseball bats).

But if you're trying to prop up the EU, the facts show that the "George Lucas signed off on them" authority argument isn't a valid one. Because he clearly wasn't very interested or involved in it.

And why would you want to use this authority argument, anyway?

You shouldn't need to say "this came from Lucas" to like those stories. They don't need to be George Lucas Approved™ to matter and to be validated as "worthy of appreciation". They're valid on their own, they're great stories. And if you like them better than the Sequels, go to town. I know I do.

The only thing you can't do (with a straight face, at least) is hold them up as "the True Lucas-Approved Canon™ as opposed to the Disney Trash" in a rant, because you'd be wrong and/or lying. Neither had Lucas' hand in them in any meaningful way.

Finally... I was devastated when the EU was officially made non-canon, in 2014. And for a few years, I saw the new Star Wars continuity through this lens:

"Any EU content is still canon unless it's directly retconned...!"

Trust me, when I say that only pain lies that way. Because that's not how a lot of Star Wars creators, including the Flanelled One himself, see it. The way they saw/see it is:

"Unless it's been shown in a movie or TCW... it's a legend, it might have happened."

This line of thought seems to be increasingly applied to the new Disney canon too, by the way. "If it's not shown on a screen, then it's probably canon yet also up for grabs to be retconned."

And the sooner you accept that this is how it's being treated, the sooner you accept that the EU was never canon to Lucas or Filoni...

... the less painful it'll be when, I dunno, you watch The Acolyte and it's nothing like the Darth Plagueis novel or Plagueis himself is absent, or he's there, but as an Ithorian instead of a Muun.

(note how I didn't use the word "painless")

[hydr0phius]

Welcome back to more crack summaries and notes. Today it's Thrawn Ascendancy: Lesser Evil, and I am absolutely distraught after reading it.

Linked: Chaos Rising and Greater Good

Starting out strong with this one aren't we, Mr. Zahn?

...

Samakro: please let this be a normal fucking side trip-

...

The Springhawk: *appears*

Jixtus: Not this mf again. Give me a damn BREAK-

...

Thrawn, over comms: If there are any Watith here, we have your prisoners.

Generalius Nakirre: I'm going to answer him.

Jixtus: Do NOT

...

Generalius Nakirre: If you're not going to tell me, I'll just ask him.

Jixtus: nO-

...

(word for word)

Generalius Nakirre: The Kilji path will prove superior

Thrawn, flatly: No. It will not.

Generalius Nakirre: Again, you dismiss our wisdom without even hearing it.

Thrawn: In my experience, superior wisdom can stand on its own merits. It does not require a warship to force acceptance.

Generalius Nakirre: You also bring a warship to this place.

Thrawn: But I do not claim to offer superior wisdom. Nor do I intend to impose my wisdom upon others.

(Thrawn, I love you dearly).

...

Jixtus, quietly in the background for the last five minutes of the comm call with Nakirre and Thrawn: Oh my fucking gods, DISENGAGE. DO NOT LET HIM KNOW ANYTHING MORE ABOUT YOU-

...

Nakirre, internally during the comm call and Jixtus' warnings: WHY SHOULDN'T I FUCK HIM UP? HE'S ASKING FOR IT. IT WOULD BE SO EASY.

...

Thrawn: *blank stare on the bridge, facing Thalias*

Thalias: Look at him going into deep thought. *Turns back to Che'ri*

Thrawn, directly behind her now: So have you-

Thalias, jumping about a foot in the air: -STOP SNEAKING UP ON PEOPLE LIKE THAT!!!!

Thrawn: I wasn't????? Anyway, has Che'ri had anymore nightmares?

(He was sneaking but he doesn't know that lmao).

...

Lamiov: *sends Ba'kif a message about Thrawn*

Ba'kif: *Dropping absolutely everything and moving faster than his colleagues would if there was all out war because his Son is up to things*

...

^^^ All that was just in the prologue and I was nearly losing it lmao.

...

Thurfian: *makes a decision*

Thivik: *judgemental vibes*

...

Thrawn: *rattling off info about the paintings in the reception area of the Mitth crib on wherever it is that they were*

Thrass: How the fuck did you know all of that-

...

Lappincyk: Larawn. Has a nice ring to it.

Me thinking of that vine: Larawn James sjsjs

...

Lappincyk: Ok and what is Thrawn to you?

Thrass making a spur of the moment decision: He's my friend.

Thrawn, sitting down: :3

(That felt like a set up. Thooraki and Lamiov going "Thrawn needs someone who knows politics" and then shoving Thrass into his orbit).

...

Jixtus: I have information you'll want

Thistrian: let me consult with the Patriarch.

Thurfian: Tell them to feck off. We don't want anything to do with them.

Thistrian: o h

...

Ba'kif when he found out about the Magys: SORRY YOU WHAT- NO. WHAT POSSESSED YOU

Thrawn: :)

Samakro: I'll see this through. I'm in too deep.

...

Thivik what's on that datacard??? WHAT DID THRASS PUT TOGETHER-

...

All the Thrawn and Thrass interactions give me life.

...

Zistalmu: I got a divorce.

Thurfian: babe, please. :'(

...

Roscu: *blathering on & being all high and mighty while a fucking asteroid missile is lining her up*

Ziinda: Can you shut the fuck up?

Roscu: I- ok.

...

Thrawn: I'll see y'all later. Uingali and I are going on a trip for a bit.

Samakro: k, bye.

later

Samakro: Where are we???

Bridge crew: idk man??

Che'ri: I'm following him. He's in danger and we need to be there.

Samakro after a lot of talking with Thalias: Oh. ok.

...

Thrawn: Can you fire a charric?

Qilori: *nervous wreck* nO

Thrawn dragging him up out of his chair: You're about to learn.

...

Thrass, holding a chair & ready to use it: Yeah, that's right! Drop the knife!

The thief: *slowly puts the knife down, looking behind Thrass the whole time*

Thrawn standing menacingly behind Thrass ready to deck the thief like he did his accomplices: >:)

...

Thrass: Ok, Roscu, but if you did fire on us you'd be killing a Mitth Aristocra and his brother.

Thrawn: :0

Lappincyk: :D

Roscu: Damn, ok.

*after the Odo ceremony*

Thrawn: Are we actually brothers now?

Thrass: Yeah, if you want :3

Thrawn: :') ok

*cue secret sharing*

...

CEDF: *trying to keep the peace in the Ascendancy on Syndicure orders*

CDF and Family Fleets, with the indignant air of a 10 yr old Sephora girl: Oh my GODS, can you LEAVE? You have NO POWER here!!!!

CEDF: Ok, fuck you. *sorts out the fighting anyway then dips off to wherever they get sent to next*

...

Che'ri: I'm fine. I can cook my own food while you're gone, and Mid Captain Samakro can check in on me.

Samakro: *worried Dad being left with the kids for the first time noises*

Thalias: ok.

Che'ri: Niceeee

Samakro: *sweating bullets*

...

Thalias: You Borika?

Borika, fake accent on: You a cop?

Thalias: What-

...

Borika: *nice rancher lady*

Borika 0.5 seconds after Thalias mentions the Seekers program: *pulls a charric on Thalias once they're inside the house and drops the accent*

Thalias: Holy fu- HANg oN-

...

TIMMY!!!! WHY DIDN'T YOU LET BORIKA AND THRAWN MEET!!!!!

...

Fuck the Ascendancy too btw. The systems in place are shit. Those poor sky-walkers.

...

*Two families fighting*

Ar'alani having been sent to deal with it, angry admiral voice engaged: OI, STOP THAT

One gunboat: NO. YOU HAVE NO JURISDICTION HERE CEDF.

Ar'alani, fed up: Flicker all of them, then drag them away from each other

Wutroow: That's going to piss a lot of people off, Admiral.

Ar'alani: idgaf. They're being stupid and putting civilians in danger.

Wutroow: Then might I suggest dragging them back to different orbital levels? if they want at it again, they'll at least have to try.

Ar'alani: Excellent thinking. Let's do that.

...

Ja'fosk 20mins after they flickered everyone and are headed back to UAG: Ar'alani you need to stop hanging around with Thrawn so much.

Ar'alani: Ok but he's right.

Ja'fosk:

Ar'alani: Y'all are just haters.

Ja'fosk: Just get back to UAG.

Ar'alani: Ok.

...

Ar'alani: *Firing on Dy'lothe's ship because he's ignoring her and possibly about to fuck up Thrawn's plan*

Dy'lothe: AR'ALANI, WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU DOING?

Ar'alani, sick of CDF bs: GETTING YOUR ATTENTION. ANSWER YOUR DAMN COMMS, MAN-

(SHIP, SHIP, SHIP, SHIP)

...

Dy'lothe: Acting on the Syndicure's orders-

Ar'alani: Oh, so illegal orders, then?

Dy'lothe: ...yeah

Ar'alani: ha.

...

Ba'kif: Here's Thrawn's latest plan. I'm giving you and anyone else you can convince permission to go and assist him.

Ar'alani on four hours of sleep: This is completely insane and could ruin our careers.

Ba'kif: So you'll do it, then?

Ar'alani: Of course!

...

Thalias: There's no bus to the spaceport-

Borika: I've got you, girlie. I'll drive you.

...

Samakro: Oh yes, you're Thrawn's big, strong protector.

Thalias: yes.

Samakro: :)

...

Samakro: So, here's Thrawn's plan.

Thalias: Fuckkkkk, that's insane.

Samakro: Yeah... anyway good luck with Thurfian. I'll wait here for you.

(SHIP, SHIP, SHIP!!)

...

Che'ri: *possessed by the Magys*

Samakro, dad mode engaged: IF YOU DON'T LET HER GO, I'LL OBLITERATE YOU AND YOUR PEOPLE

Magys: You jest

Samakro: I do not >:)

Thalias: TAKE ME INSTEAD

Samakro: HELL NO-

...

Thalias: I pulled a charric on the Patriarch.

Samakro: WHAT-

...

Jixtus: And what question would that be?

Thrawn: The most critical one. Are you ready to surrender?

Everyone: oohhHhhoOhohoho, you've got some balls saying that, Senior Captain.

...

QILORI KNOWS ABOUT THE SKY-WALKERS. nOOoooOOOOOOOOO

...

Can we appreciate how well Thrawn's plan went? They tore Jixtus UP.

...

Ja'fosk, pleased: How did Senior Captain Thrawn obtain such accurate information?

Samakro who was fully ready to admit that he fed Thalias false info because he thought she was a spy: o H, uH. Yeah he kinda just pulls things like that out of thin air, you know? I can't explain it.

...

Che'ri has now met both Kivu siblings AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA. I think she's going to figure it out if Thalias hasn't told her yet.

...

Everyone going into the chamber thinking Thrawn's going to get a promotion or something and then the Admiralty exiling him and stripping his honour chains sucker punched me in the gut. Thurfian's smugness did not help matters either. I could feel the anger from everyone in that scene.

...

Sorry the way the Aristocra had everyone lined up for serious consequences instead of the commendations etc they got in the end because Thrawn took all of the blame himself to keep them in positions where they'd be able to guide the Ascendancy's forces in his absence got to me oh my gods.

...

Ba'kif: We're telling you so that you don't kick up a fuss about the exile thing

Ar'alani: I would never!

(She would. She was going to)

...

Ba'kif: *explaining the Clone Wars*

Ar'alani: I'm not remembering all that. Happy for them, though. Or Sorry that happened.

...

(Not crack, just pain)

Ar'alani: Don't you dare leave before I say goodbye to you, Thrawn.

Thrawn: Of course not. That's not what friends do.

Timmy: *doesn't write their goodbye scene*

Me: *screaming*

...

Thrawn: It's only for six months. Perhaps a year.

Ar'alani: And then you come home?

Thrawn: Yes. It will be alright.

Me: It was not, in fact, alright. seventeen-ish years and then another nine missing out on Peridea is not 1, mate.

...

Ba'kif: it's a shame I'll never see you in admiral whites.

Thrawn: Nobody here is senseless enough to promote me to admiral lmao

...

Ba'kif: We have time for one final meal together, if you wish

Thrawn: If you don't mind, I'd like to eat alone. There's a bistro where Thrass and I used to meet. I'd like to spend my last evening on Csilla remembering him.

...

I'm not okay. Probably going to have new fics to write now. hhhhhhh. That was sad as hell at the end there.

...

Also these two trilogies just highlight how little Felony understands Thrawn, and I hope all of you understand after reading the books, how badly he massacred our boy in Ahsoka. It shouldn't be, "omg we got him in live action!" anymore. It should be, "who is that blue guy and why are we being given such shit quality shows and expected to like it when the characters that mean so much to us have been reduced to having less dimension than a cardboard cut out, and that a slug could move 1 kilometer at a faster pace than the supposed plot that's scarcely here?" Have some standards that aren't six feet under, please, everyone (this is not aimed at y'all who have seen this from the start <3).

Anyway! Onto the Imperial Era I go :D