#njcon 2013

[ironworked]

Scrolling through another fandom's tag a while back, I encountered a few anon asks warning people of the perils of bringing up RPF/shipping to the individuals who inspire it. While I agree with the sentiment, this person didn't choose a good example to go with it: Jensen Ackles and Misha Collins.

The gist of it was that this issue caused them to stop talking and even to refuse to do events together for a long time.

Which is blatantly untrue, for one:

2009 and 2010

2011 and 2012

2013 and 2014

2015 and 2016

2017 and 2018

2019 and 2020

2021 and 2022

2023 and 2024

Here's the Masterlist compiled by @/livebloggingmydescentintomadness

Jensen's @ Misha mentions on Twitter; replies.

Misha's @ Jensen mentions on Twitter.

Instagram:

Videos:

2009 (AHBL); 2010 (ChiCon, SDCC Syfy event, ); 2011 (JIB); 2012 (JIB, ComicCon); 2013 (JIB); 2014 (JIB); 2015 (JIB); 2016 (JIB, ComicCon, compilation); 2017 (JIB, HonCon); 2018 (JIB); 2019 (JIB, Arlington); 2020 (EW photoshoot); 2021 (DenCon, gishfest); 2022 (NJCon, JIB, VanCon); 2023 (JIB, JIB again, Liverpool, Charlotte); 2024 (JIBbit, SF, Columbus, Burbank)...

[I'd add quotes but I think that's quite enough]

And secondly, why would it cause such a rift between Jensen and Misha when it didn't cause it between Jared and Jensen? I think you might have been misled by someone with an agenda...

So. Anon, you probably won't see this but I'll give you my advice anyway: if you really care about the topic, I'd find another example because this one works against you, if anything.

[spideyhighlighty]

this was a test bc 1. it’s the ten year anniversary of njcon 2013 and 2. i wanted to know if we’d get an essaygate pt 2. i am happy to report that texan passed! one of his handlers winked at me when i walked up which i am still 😳 about, i truly do not remember if he actually read the paper but he made eye contact, smiled, and said your welcome! when i thanked him

i walked away feeling great so yay!

[shedontlovehuhself]

The mysterious girl from njcon who was at the heart of the bi Dean panel question in 2013. Was that really her on here all those years ago "clarifying" the situation?

[cowboylikedean]

i started watching the sarah z video and she just straight up ignored every ounce of context from njcon 2013 and i remember what a shitshow that weekend was and i just wanna say it was really bad.

[dimples-of-discontent]

(part 1) im gonna preface by saying sorry if you've answered this before or it's obvious, but I wanted your opinion on something. I can't really read Misha at all when it comes to Destiel. I wanted to know if you think Misha plays Cas as being in love with Dean? Do you think Misha sees that relationship or is too in the moment to view it the way we do (similar to Jensen). I'm asking because I know he has gotten questions about it before and something that is obvious 9/10 times when he answers...

(part 2) is that he turns it into something sexual. I know he obviously wont say either way whether for higher up backlash or simply because he’s Misha, but I never got if that is just his wink wink to the fans because he’s supportive of our beliefs or he thinks that we only see sex so he’s like yeah perverts. He genuinely seems insightful at times and I do love the way he has described their relationship on several occasions. i know a few years ago there was a moment where, if i remember…

(part 3) correctly might have been one of the only times he answered without really joking? he seemed incredibly in tune with the audience talking about it but there seemed to be a sad/awkward air to his words. most of the things i have seen are from a few years ago though (pre-season 11) and we have gotten some incredibly deep destiel scenes since then so I guess im asking if you think he sees it, if so, when he might have started, if he thinks it now, if he thinks its just sexual, ect. thanks!“

Hi Nonnie,

First off, it sounds like you actually know a whole heck of a lot about Misha’s take on Destiel so I’m flattered that you would ask for my opinion on it too. I haven’t formulated a whole post about it, though I have reblogged and commented on some really great ones that I will also link you to here. 

I think it’s important to distinguish between Misha’s take on whether it is an intentional part of the show (do the writers write it that way? do he and Jensen play it that way?) vs. his response to fanfic and fandom commentary on Destiel. About the second, he tends to wear his snarky persona and call us perverts and joke about how “me and Jensen write most of that stuff anyway.” That’s easier. It’s a deflection. If faced with a question about intentionality and whether he thinks that the show has been amping up the romance tropes, it’s far safer to instead talk about the fan response and how “I would never have imagined seeing myself depicted giving so many blowjobs.” How much Cas fanart have you looked up Misha? FFS! 

So when, as you say, he immediately jumps to making things sexual I don’t at all think that it’s because he thinks that accurately reflects the way the character is written or how he plays him. After all, as recently as S10 he had Cas stare at a porn site and say, bemusedly, “What is ‘Fortune Nookie’?” (10x03). In 13x21 Cas was obviously embarrassed both by and about Gabriel and Rowena. And, as we learned from S12, the sacred oath that forbids human-angel sex must be very much on his mind. Now, some of us are of the opinion that this season in particular has been revealing Cas to have some understanding of or interest in sex even as an angel but YMMV on that one. But it’s safe to say that no matter how many jokes Misha makes about Cas being a creeper and perving on Dean he knows that that isn’t in the show. He’s responding to a particular, over-exaggerated fan version of Destiel. And he’s doing it because it’s safe.

It’s actually Misha’s standard deflection now because, in my opinion, not only do they want to avoid pissing people off but they are all bound by NDAs (non-disclosure agreements) of some kind when it comes to the actual show…but not when it comes to the fans. So he can say whatever he likes about fanfic or fanart or “what goes on on oil rigs” and neither risk offending people as deeply (since he’s clearly joking around) nor violating any contracts. I don’t know if he really thinks that all fanworks are all about sex. I think….perhaps. And, honestly, given the kinds of things people bring to cons for them to sign I can’t blame him. The linked post also shows how totally ok both he and Jensen are with smutty fanart, as does the infamous Cockles video that I’m adding here because, well, why not:

If you can’t hear the audio it’s Jensen describing two different pieces of fanart that they signed, one of which they drew penises on the other of which was already nsfw that he captioned, and laughing about it and draping himself all over Misha ew. 

But back to your original question, which was whether Misha plays Cas as being in love with Dean or sees that relationship as inherently romantic. I’m actually just going to flat out answer: he does. Misha is an intelligent and sensitive reader (which is not to say the other actors, especially Jensen, are not but that Misha approaches the script as a reader in a way I don’t think Jensen does because his process is so different). I believe Misha has always seen that in the character. As @amwritingmeta​ discusses in this epic post on Jensen, Destiel, and Dean’s bisexuality:

“Misha started out talking rather openly about how Destiel is an intentional part of the narrative - almost going so far as to get pissy about how this was even a question, if rumours are to be believed - then less openly, until he, as early as last year, was scuttling around the Destiel question like it was on fire. Why? I would venture a complete guess and say that it’s most likely to do with all the negativity thrown his way whenever he’s engaged with it, accusations of queerbaiting flying at him and the show, when this couldn’t be farther away from what they’ve actually been doing all these years, delivering a narrative the likes of which has never been seen on television before.”

Comments he made about his initial decisions, staring at Jensen “as if I was looking into his soul”, and the teasing that he garnered, “We’re missing the gay angel,” indicate that he–and Jensen, fwiw–were fully aware of the homoerotic aspects of the character and his portrayal.

I think that the convention clip you’re thinking of might be this one from NJcon 2013 where Misha first says that he ought not to talk about it but then goes on to say that there is a “very profound bond” but that “I will leave you to read into that what you will” and remarks that he doesn’t want to be accused of queerbaiting, which he felt was unfair because he is such a supporter for the LGBTQ community overall. He’s absolutely sad there. He concludes by saying “It’s a lot of things. It’s deep and meaningful, you know. Is it love? Probably. What does that mean? It’s a million different things. I don’t know” which then becomes a joke about “you know, my boyfriend is a wavelength of celestial intent.” He ends by saying outright that “They love each other” before adding “but it’s purely sexual.” That backtracking is frustrating but totally characteristic because otherwise it’s just too definitive. (I’m gonna keep my tinhat in the closet on this one but I can’t help but murmur about actor bleed.)

By 2016, at DCcon, he was delighted to get out of the Destiel question by having West throw balls at him. He talks about how he was discouraged from even mentioning that relationship when he came on the show and how he then flouted that rule because he didn’t see the point. The implication, though, is that he now does see why he shouldn’t discuss it and I can only imagine that a lot of it has to do with the vitriol that often came his way. Most of his answer is a joke on this panel, “How would you approach it if it happened” becomes “face-forward” and “How would you set the scene” becomes a seduction joke. Rich and Rob are there to help out and keep the carnival atmosphere going. (Cockles sidebar: I had never noticed that he answers the question of “How would you set the scene” with “In another language; in Russian.” CAN YOU SAY ACCENT KINK??) That’s a huge difference from 2013′s serious answer, though it’s not easy to tell whether that change is due to something contractural about the show or Misha’s own desire to avoid upset. I kind of think the second.

His most recent comments are from Seacon 2018 where he says that he could “go on and on and on” with his thoughts about Destiel and that he and Jensen do have conversations about it. He again uses it as an opportunity to talk about the fandom response and reflect on changes in attitude within the fandom not on the show…which is interesting, of course, but not really what we are fishing for. As he says at the end he gets in trouble with someone no matter what he says on the topic. And then he will deflect with a joke (”Jensen and I don’t write a ton of Destiel fanfic”) before giving us a tiny glimmer of hope (”because we live it all the time”). The whole cast is certainly much more open about it than they used to be, even Jensen. And I’m not sure whether or not that can be attributed to the deeper Destiel scenes you mention or not. I do think it would become much harder for them to deny the existence of a romantic element and that the way they are coping with that is pure humor.

I hope that helps a little. It’s a very complex question, since it’s bound up with so many other things about the show and about Misha’s character and his relationship to the fans. (I have tags for both “misha and destiel” and “misha about destiel” if you want more.) I agree with you that he is the most in tune with the fan view of the relationship and supportive of it as an interpretation. I think he’s either not legally able to say more about it or, perhaps, is too conditioned not to by previous negative reactions from the fans. His jokes that make it sexual, or refer to fandom and not the show, are simply a clever deflection and one which he does much better than either Jared or Jensen (though Jensen has learned from Misha and gotten markedly less defensive in general, e.g. “There will now be fanfiction written about what goes on on oil rigs” “Don’t let us down”).

My gut feeling is that, yes, Misha has seen the romantic element since Day 1 and that lines like “I love you. I love all of you” and “I know who you love” confirm for him that it is there for Cas. I think that he supports that reading of their relationship but we will likely never get to hear him say that…unless something miraculous happens on the show so that he feels free to.

[nbrook29]

J2 Lunch Panel from NJCon 2013 by strgazr04. It has just been uploaded and since this particular panel wasn't on YouTube before, I thought I will share it here :)

[brazen-kenobi]

“Yeah, you know. My boyfriend is great. He's a celestial wavelength of intent, so you know a lot of times when he sleeps over I just, I don't know what's going on. He's there and then he's not there, and then he's back again and he's in my head. Literally, in my head.”

Misha speaking about how Dean being in a relationship with Cas would be.

NJCon 2013 

[nancylou444]

*rolls eyes* That blog saying the girl was "coming out" and bla bla and not really asking about b!dean... PLEEEEASE, there's something called "correlation", you just don't slip in a seemingly non-related concept if you're not gonna compare it to something else. What would be the point? The situation can be compared to Chekhov's Gun.

Exactly, that is something THEY don’t understand. 

ONLY a destieheller would think of announcing their sexuality as a introduction to a question. ONLY a destieheller would ask a ship question in the first place. Or shout out Castiel. 

I know I have that question around here somewhere, give me a second....

Dean becoming more comfortable with himself + i’m bisexual + possible subtext === 100% guaranteed ====> destiehell question

But NO Jensen was disrespectful to HER. **massive rolling of the eyes**

[gothstiels]

oh jensen panel sunday? i’d rather die

[fucking-destiel]

So I just watched some Tik Tok about the truth of the Bi!Dean essay scandal and ngl I thought that shit happened in like 2013 but it turns out it happened in December 2018 and my mind is fucked up rn.

(Here's Part 1/3 if you wanna know the truth)

https://vm.tiktok.com/ZMJGP2anm/

[steveyockey]

once and for all a basic timeline of jensen ackles’s “biphobia” and riverdale writer britta lundin

2013: a fan at njcon tries to ask jensen a question about interpreting dean as bisexual and gets booed out of the room

2016: britta lundin is hired on the cw’s riverdale where she pens the episode with jughead’s “I’m weird, I’m a weirdo” speech. this really has nothing to do with jensen it��s just funny

2018: britta lundin publishes ship it, an early scene of which features a rehash of the 2013 njcon debacle

2018: several months after the publication of ship it, a fan brings an essay arguing for bi dean to a con at the top of which jensen writes “? No.”

britta lundin was never either of the fans who had these con interactions. she’s just like. a person. 

[inacatastrophicmind]

Hi I went through few cons and I actually got my heart broken a little bit. Every one of them had Jensen denying the idea of Destiel or Dean being anything but the American male fantasy.

Vancon 2012 J2 panel he avoids the fan who is screaming Destiel. I understand that because he was going through something Misha shaped during 2012. Destiel was the last thing he wanted in his life then.

The controversial NJCon 2013 where he pretty much rudely avoids the Bi Dean question. I mean come on there were so many ways to back down there but just giving into that crowd like that and shooting down that girl who asked the question? I know she actually explained what happened there but he is saying things to convey he is unhappy where that question is heading. JP who is considered the immature even is considering answering the question the girl is continuously apologising it is a horror show there while Jensen is just being plain rude.

Jib 2014 solo panel where he is asked if Dean will ever get his pie. And he denies Cas ever being there at the end of the line. And ironically at the end, he was only there with all kinds of pie but no Cas. Amazing how life worked out for him.

Jib 2015 solo panel where he again denies both CasDean and Destiel from Fan Fiction episode. JPad was not there and Jensen was in a bad mood so maybe it had something to do with that.

Chicon 2016 he again invalidates Cas when a question is asked about him Cas and Mary.

TorCon 2016 where both Js are denying Cas's importance saying there's no necessity for him.

JaxCon 2017 he pretty much shoots down Destiel by saying Destiel doesn't exist.

In JaxCon 2018 he wrote NO infront of Bi Dean research paper a fan showed him.

Jibcon 2019 he asks audience Where does Destiel exist. but I think he was much like teasing the audience there tbh. No major harm but it still hurts.

I just.. I truly believe he knows what he and Misha were doing in the Destiel implied scenes. And now the cat is pretty much out of the bag. But still Jensen is pretty much staying on his ground and it is nice he is now more open for interpretation but the strength this fandom should have to forgive him for all he did...

I believe in Karma. I think Karma got to Jensen eventually for all hurt he did by those words to the fandom. I don't hate Jensen in fact I really adore the guy. But it doesn't mean I am not upset by his words. How I think Karma worked here is that he never embraced what he was portraying as a character and Karma finally said "Okay Dude enough foreplay.. You want pie okay here's pie and your car now die and be in heaven and your character arc is in garbage but your brother gets to live. There goes your male fantasy.."

I understand if he had internalized sexuality issues of himself that he didn't feel like exposing by talking about Dean and Destiel but still there are much better ways to shoot down fan opinions without being so rude.

In 2014 he pretty much says that at the end of the series Dean might get all kinds of pie with no Castiel and...Geez Is it not what exactly happened? No Cas and Pie on his face. Accidental foreshadowing spoilers..

I think he got Karma for hurting so many fan hearts and denying something he evidently portrayed in his character. At the end he didn't get a happy ending he got robbed by his own show. While the shippers actually got something out of it Thanks to Misha.

I don't need Jensen to embrace Destiel in an open hug because not in any universe that's gonna happen. I actually hoped he would eventually be open to it. He actually might be, considering his reaction to episode 18. But there's no proof actually footage of him saying anything positive about Destiel. It just... is such a bummer.

I know Jensen is hurt for his own reasons by his own show which actually hurt him in ways no fan ever did. I hope he understands how fans feel now being betrayed by a show they love.

May be he had the Karma coming..

In the past, Jensen hasn't been Destiel's biggest fan, and that's something that has always bothered me. Not because I didn't respect that he didn't like Destiel, but because every time Destiel was brought up, he was kind of rude. The same thing happened with anyone mentioned Dean being bi. It sucked and hurt because he could have handled it better. He could have easily said "I don't see Destiel/Dean as bi, but it's okay if you do". It's just that simple.

I don't know why Jensen was so rude about Destiel or bi!Dean. I don't know if it was of something personal or because certain fans were rude to him when they brought up Destiel and bi!Dean, or if he was scared that Dean would change if Destiel happened, because society and media think that anyone who belongs to the LGBTQIA+ community's personality is just their sexuality and gender and nothing else, so maybe Jensen was afraid that Dean would just become a character that was bi and that everything else that Dean was would disappear. Or maybe it had to do with the fact that he grew up in Texas, which isn't the most liberal place. It could be anything.

However, since they started filming s15 and when he found out about Cas' confesion, he has been really supportive about Destiel. He might not be as vocal and supportive as Misha is, but you can see the change. And that's important. Even at a JIBcon, (I can't remember which one), after he haid said something negative about Destiel the previous year, he apologized. He knows how important Destiel is for a lot of us. And he has learnt from his past behavior. Even if he doesn't fully support it, he now knows that it means a lot to a lot of people and he isn't rude about it anymore and he respects it.

Also, I should mention that in most cons, all the panels that involve either Jensen, Misha and/or J*red are moderated, and 90% of them forbid Destiel questions. So I don't know what the cons organizers tell the actors to say when Destiel is brought up, or if anyone from the network forbids them to talk about it, but unfortunately, Destiel has been considered a taboo topic by TPTB, and that might have also affected on the way Jensen reacted any time Destiel or bi!Dean was mentioned. Although I still think he should have handled it better, but at least, he now seems to be on good terms with the topics, and as I mentioned above, that's really important.

As for the Cas thing, about how both Jensen and J*red always joked how he didn't matter, it's a joke that's been going for too long, and that's all it is. They have taken it way too far, especially J*red, because most of the times, when Jensen is talking without J*red by his side, he always brings up Cas and how important he is. Just look at some of the interviews he has done over the years.

With that said, I think you're being mean about the whole karma thing. What the writers did to Dean was just the writers being shitty writers. They wrote a whole season with the only goal of killing Dean. After Dean has finally found the will to live, after he is finally able to live on his own terms, the writers decided that killing him was a good way to end the story. That's not karma; that's bad storytelling.

And just because Jensen didn't handle Destiel or bi!Dean in a good way, it doesn't mean that he deserved to have Dean treated like shit. And I think that what you're suggesting is actually quite mean.

Jensen might have made mistakes in the past regarding Destiel and bi!Dean, but he seems to have grown and realized that he can't be that rude. It's not hard at all to accept that people love Destiel and bi!Dean, even if he doesn't. And he has gotten there. So accept that and don't be mean.

[starsovermyhead]

Would you mind explaining the straw lore? I’ve seen people say Jensen’s dad told him drinking out of straws is not manly. I have no idea what the source on that is… and is the connection to the photo JA trolling his dad or is all of this blown out of proportion?

This got long.

So, in 2013 at NJCon J2 Panel, Jensen took a sip of his iced tea and said, "I don't like straws. My father said once there's no manly way to drink from the straw". Jared then immediately drank his tea through the straw, they laughed and moved on. It was gifed, you can find screenshots on pinterest if you want.

Fastforward to the end of 2020 and people re-discovering 15 years of fandom history in one sit, and the straw quote is now used as a proof of Jensen's toxic masculinity/homophobia/you name it. And under every post that mentions Jensen doing something gender-nonconforming or saying something about gender, sexuality or masculinity, or even under posts about his new roles, in the notes, there would be people bringing up this moment as some sort of ultimate gotcha. Or, at best, acting like he said this yesterday and is finally opening his eyes. All this about the quote from 2013.

Now, don't get me wrong, it was a dumb thing to say. I watched that video, this moment was clearly meant as a bit and not an expression of his life philosophy or whatever, but it is a stupid joke and it made me cringe. God, I hate con videos, they give me terrible second-hand embarrassment.

But it's been 9 years ago. Jensen's younger kids weren't born yet, I'm not even sure about JJ. People can grow a lot over much shorter time, and I don't believe Jensen was a "bad" person to begin with. There are tons of evidence and stories about him being a kind and open-mided man, even if he were more conservative back then (idk if he actually was). To dismiss all that because he isn't a perfect paragon (neither are other cast members, nor any of us), to mock him for his efforts to change is cruel and disheartening. Yeah, he's a rich white man, he won't see it, but other people do, and it's disgusting.

Also,

It's from S9 (2013-2014) gag reel, btw (x)

As for the photo, he had it as his pfp for several years (I can't tell you when exactly because I wasn't in the fandom back then). It's actually from the extremelly cute Jensen/Danneel photoshoot, to which I can't find a link right now. Interestingly, it's was either made in 2012 or 2013. Hmm.

I don't think this pfp is related to Jensen's father, mostly because I don't believe this extremelly dumb idea really mattered to Jensen (as an adult) in any way and certainly not to the extent some parts of the fandom like to think. It's a nice goofy photo, very in his style, why not use it on SM?

PS. While I was searching for the straw quote, I found articles on the same topic, from this year (and one about growing up with cold fathers, lol). I think Jensen is ok, actually.

[calsyee]

That's fair, but like, the trope is the mother in law who is convinced this schlubby guy isn't good enough for her precious daughter, not...whatever Chuck has going on, man, I don't know what happened in the last seven seasons besides "between one and two 'sort of' kids, a lamp, and the show got marginally less shitty to becky?"

ultimately, i think the thing we can all learn from the ending of supernatural is that dean and cas's real dynamic is and has always been 'put-upon sitcom wife/endearing buffoon sitcom husband'

like, seriously, dean, you couldn't keep it together for one hunt? you died fighting vampire clowns in a barn getting impaled on a rusty nail? how long have you been hunting? since you were a literal child?

and all this while cas was getting out of super turbo hell and helping your kind-of-kid make heaven all nice again for your ridiculous ass? god almighty. what the fuck. get your shit together or else the sitcom of it all will spontaneously generate you a mother in law who hates you.

[carry-on-my-wayward-butt]

every single clown getting defensive about the homophobic jensen posts has completely wiped NJcon 2013 from their minds.

[princesscas]

What did you mean when you said that misha knew that the show has done some terrible things? I just want to know how the actors feel about the final

Way back in 2013, Misha talked about the misogyny in spn during a panel at njcon. The fandom’s pretty sure the CW/PR/whoever had told Misha to not say anything, because he hasn’t made any further comments since. 

“There’s stupid things in the show that they shouldn’t do. Why do they have to say bitch and kill all the women? It seems like there are certainly small ways in which the show is sort of portentously (I think that’s what he said) misogynistic when it doesn’t need to be.” 

“It makes me cringe sometimes. There’s a million other things you could say, you don’t need to do this. You have killed every other female character that had more than a two episode arc.” 

Here’s the full video:

As for the final, we don’t exactly know what each of them thinks about it exactly. Besides Jensen, who didn’t like the script at first but had to go to Krypkie and be talked into it. Misha might say something in his Q&A on Sunday but I don’t hold on for him to trash the show.