#nie mingjue meta

[lgbtlunaverse]

I feel like too often people frame Nie Mingjue's issues as ignorance borne from safety. Like, they think that because of his privilege as a sect leader he doesn't know what it's like to be in danger and forced to make hard choices to survive. And I disagree. Strongly.

First of all, Nie Mingjue is very familiar with death not only from war but from. You know. Actively dying since the age of fourteen. Let us not forget Nie Mingjue is dead! Super dead! And maybe he didn't die the exact way he expected to but he did, absolutely, know he was going to die. To act like Nie Mingjue is unfamiliar with the scenario of "do something you find morally reprehensible or die" is to ignore that he has been living that exact scenario and chose death.

Nie Mingjue knows death is a risk for someone like Jin guangyao, in fact he explicitly acknowledges it even in his worst moments like the stairs in chapter 49. Had his issue been ignorance, then he would've responded to Jin Guangyao saying that he's in danger and has to sacrifice others for his own safety with "No you aren't you'll be fine." But he doesn't. He accepts the fact that jgy is in danger with no qualms and says: then you should die.

That's not him betraying his values, those are his values. He is, essentially, pro-suicide. Jgy is like hey I have a moral dilemma what should I do and nmj straight up goes "Kill yourself" and earlier that same chapter when he was faced with a moral dilemma he went "I'm gonna kill myself." He believes the solution to moral dilemmas is suicide! He is extremely consistent about this! When it's pointed out to him that it would have been dangerous for Wen Qing to oppose Wen Ruohan it doesn't phase him because he thinks putting yourself at risk to do the right thing is the only moral choice. The idea that he can only hold this belief because he is himself somehow not in danger, again, requires you to ignore that he is dying the whole time. And it doesn't deter him. He is the idea of self-sacrifice as a moral good taken to its absolute logical extreme. Someone who is ready to die and demands the same from everyone else.

It makes him a very fun case study for fandom, because a lot of fandom spaces also tend to revere self-sacrifice as the ultimate good, and yet we get very uncomfortable when someone starts demanding it of characters we love. Like woah, hold on, that's a bit too far isn't it? Only we the audience get to do that!

[randomness-is-my-order]

since i’m on my third mdzs brainrot of the year, let me just say: it’s enlightening how this story, spread over multiple volumes, goes over the simple but undeniably true reality that even while doing almost everything “right” you can still be horribly “wrong” in the eyes of society. how wei wuxian would bend over backwards to follow his morals (which have been narratively shown to be somewhat the standard) but still be condemned at large because he didn’t go about it the way that was perfectly compliant with what his social superiors and other authority figures expected of him. how “good” deeds in the mdzs world (and ours) will only be accepted and praised, coming from someone of lower social standing, if they are packaged in an unobstrusive manner–and sometimes, not even then. and it’s funny how some people miss that, how they wonder what would have happened if wei wuxian had been just a bit more tempered, a bit more subservient, a bit more polite. how the expectation of delivering his kindnesses in the most unhindering manner possible is somehow an acceptable train of thought–how the burden to do better is not unequivocally placed on people like JGS, Jiang Cheng, Nie Mingjue, the Lans, etc.

some people think that wei wuxian using demonic cultivation in the eyes of the cultivation world is his downfall. nevermind the fact that he literally isn’t practicing mo dao–this whole issue is NOT about what he’s doing, but about who he is. mxtx has made that clear at multiple points in the novels but the most glaring example is, ofcourse, how the nie sect is allowed to mess with resentful energy all they like and since they are a powerful enough sect, they face no social or political backlash for it–not in the way that wei wuxian does. even then, during the war, those people had no qualms against weaponising wei wuxian’s powers for their benefit. if it truly was about the dubious morality of using mo dao for them then wei wuxian should have been condemned from the get-go. but it’s not. it’s about the son of a servant wielding enough power to change the tides of a war and then surviving to tell the tale and continue to live with the kind of power that shouldn’t be held by someone of his station. it’s about people quaking in their boots because wei wuxian has shown himself as someone who won’t conform, who won’t become a dancing monkey for their tunes.

yes, wei wuxian is not some perfect angel saint but then, why the fuck should he be??? this expectation from some readers and the members of his world alike, that wei wuxian should have been the one to give it his all and more to avoid conflict is blasphemous. in the end, wei wuxian chose his path, stuck to his ideals, and went down throwing a big fuck you at the larger cultivation world’s back, while the rest failed to break the cycle of power abuse. the fact that it took them more than a year to see him to death is just a testament to how well wei wuxian handled things than some grace given by the cultivation world. the whole “wei wuxian’s first death was inevitable” is, for me, not about wei wuxian slowly spiralling and things getting out of hand. his death was inevitable because corrupt people with power will always choose to exploit and silence, will always choose to exert their will, will always choose to hurt those lower in the chain. and that is exactly what happened with the ambush and everything that led upto it.

[tavina-writes]

Why Is the Unclean Realm Called That?

Okay so, I was salty yesterday but I am calm! Today!

Let's talk about the name of the Qinghe Nie Sect Seat and why it's translated as "The Unclean Realm" and what thematic implications this name ties into.

The Chinese characters for Unclean Realm is 不净世 (bujingshi), and translating this as "unclean realm" is not inherently a bad translation at all! It gets the idea across and it's short and pity, like Nightless City for 不夜天城 (Buyetiancheng) or Cloud Recesses for 云深不知处 (yunshenbuzhichu). Unfortunately English words tend to have more syllables in them than Chinese words and the other unfortunate thing about like, translation especially for subtitles is that you have to get the translation across in the same amount as it takes for the characters to talk because most casual viewers are not pausing their screens to read translator notes especially when the thing in question is actually just, far more complicated to explain than just a sentence.

Now, to get into 不净世 (bujingshi) and what it actually means, we do have to look at the concept it comes from: 不净观(bujingguan)/asubhabhāvanā, which is a Theravāda Buddhism concept that focuses on the contemplation of defects (also on occasion translated as the contemplation of the foul/decay) especially in the sense of contemplating one's own physical decay as a meditative exercise that reminds practioners to let go of the world/worldly desires bc of the commonality of like "yeah all life in the world will eventually become a corpse and decay, so while we're here don't be too fussed about wealth and glory and power and having objects"

So, in that sense, the Bujingshi is "the realm where we let go of physical desires because eventually we all become one with the world through decay and there is no reason to contemplate wealth and material objects." Does this. Sound like someone's philosophy. Does this remind you of that line from the book that says Nie Mingjue does not care for money, women, wine, or glory.

Does it perhaps also ironically tie into his fierce corpse or Nie Huaisang contemplating decay as a state of being throughout the second life? Perhaps!

But really this is a very clever and philosophical name that ties into so much of the Nie Sect's whole deal, and seeing it being treated as kind of a haha funny thing or a totally mysterious weird thing to be called is kind of. Depressing at times.

[thatswhatsushesaid]

i just think jin guangyao's expression while looking at nie mingjue's severed head in the jinlintai treasure room speaks volumes about the depth of his unhappiness regarding, well. everything about this situation. about the circumstances that brought them both to the point where it was nmj's life or jgy's; about the decade of deception required to hide the evidence of this crime; about what he knows this revelation would do to lan xichen, if he found out.

some points for context:

1) he believes he's unobserved, save for nmj's resentful spirit. qin su is incapacitated (which, yikes, but this post isn't about that), paper man wei wuxian is still hidden from view; he has no one to perform or pretend for;

2) this is not an expression of triumph or satisfaction. this is the expression of a man who is both sad and frightened;

in other words, this isn't cruel, heartless, self-satisfied villain behaviour. this isn't zhao jing from 'word of honor' pissing on the memorial plaques of all his murdered sworn brothers while laughing maniacally about outwitting them. this scene has the weight of a graveside visit, if that grave was maybe also a nuclear warhead.

--

this meta has been added to my dreamwidth meta archive: https://thatswhatsushewrote.dreamwidth.org/560.html

[qiu-yan]

thoughts

also wasn't sure what to do with the lan simp brothers so i guess they can sit on the side

[br-disaster]

Nie Mingjue's Fatal Journey crying scenes appreciation post

There's no way I wouldn't make this post, but it ended up way longer than I intended.

Fighting with Huaisang

When is this man not tearing up?

This fight is so important for Huaisang's character development and the movie's themes, with Huaisang being ready to challenge and question the Nie ways and Mingjue doing his best to uphold those traditions and keep the peace through the only way he knows how.

But it's still hard to be challenged like this and to face the possibility that everything you've ever known might not be right, actually.

And this gif specifically is from the moment Huaisang questions if Mingjue even knows what they're there to fight and what this supposed great evil that will come to Qinghe if they fail to balance their blades even is. Mingjue has no answer, of course, I suppose he was only taught this and never had reason to question it.

But Huaisang is also talking about the disciples they already 'lost' at this point of the movie, and he says something along the lines of " You don't know anything, you only know how to bring them here to die" and that does it. Because it's both "you can't follow these rules blindly when they rely on sacrificing people" and "you've changed and I don't trust your judgement on these matters anymore".

And as he says it, Mingjue looks at their disciples and he sees the puppets for a moment. And Huaisang just questioned if the other disciples were really attacked by puppets.

So that's a big moment and Huaisang is right, of course, but he doesn't have a confirmation that this is the result of Mingjue's health deterioration yet, so he keeps pushing. And Mingjue doesn't really have a counter argument because he knows what's going on with him, but it must be very scary to hear it from the person you care about the most and realize just how much you're being affected.

(Actually, Mingjue has one counter argument and that is "Well, I am at least trying to do something while you're painting and living a carefree life", and he's not wrong either. Huaisang is right and rightfully harsh, but this is the first time he's being confronted with these difficult choices and all their family history. He can reflect on and question it, but his brother has been meking those hard decisions since he was 14, when did he ever had a break to question and change things?)

Which leads us to

The Talk

After seeing his brother sacrifice himself for him at the bridge, and then seeing Mingjue be so vulnerable and lost, that anger from their fight is gone. They can meet in the middle with "You are right, I wasn't thinking straight, this is not a long term solution and I've failed at changing our ways" and "It's not your fault, you did everything you could but you're not responsible for this situation" and it's very beautiful and heartbreaking.

Mingjue is so remorseful, both because he has condemned Huaisang to die with him and because he feels like he failed everyone and everything (even if he doesn't seem to know what he could have done differently to avoid all this).

And Huaisang's reaction in this scene is so calm it made me think this Huaisang is somewhat used to his brother displaying vulnerability around him. This isn't book NMJ with all his victories, this isn't a man who never let the Unclean Realm be conquered and who could afford to keep Huaisang far away from the war. This is a man who was attacked and subdued in his own home, who had to send Huaisang to the hands of the people who killed their father.

This Huaisang doesn't have reasons to see Mingjue as this unmovable force, he has seen Mingjue hurt and threatened and fearful; and he's now seeing him remorseful and defeated.

(I'm sure Mingjue telling Huaisang about the fact that he's dying and admiting his mistakes and insecurities is something new, especially considering their previous fight, but this Huaisang doesn't take it as a shock, because he knows his brother is only human and there's only so much he can handle. He even, like, explicitly says this)

And so he assumes this calm, reassuring and empathetic posture, because that's what his brother is asking for. And it's the most beautiful thing, Huaisang has so much love for him, so much empathy. And this is Mingjue's reaction to his brother's reassurance that it's okay if they have to die there:

I'm sure Huaisang is still processing Mingjue's "I only forced you to practice because I'll die soon", but he's so good at reassuring his brother.

Because Mingjue just told him "I am dying and I'll go as a failure" and Huaisang insisted "None of this is your fault and you did everything you could and more, and if I have to die here with you today, I don't regret a thing, and you shouldn't either".

There's no despair or anger that his brother is only telling him this now, there's only understanding and acceptance and so much love and they really knew what they were doing with this movie.

His people love him

Mingjue is so moved. He just admitted to Huaisang that he's not in peace with his accomplishments, or lack thereof; that he feels ashamed to face his ancestors, having done so little.

So I truly believe Mingjue doesn't consider himself worthy of this much trust and support. (And I can't ignore how this is tied to the Nightless City situation, where he led the men who trusted him with their lives to a dangerous situation and couldn't save any of them).

As we see in the confrontation at Jinlintai, that technically happens after this movie, that is still a very sensitive topic.

And here he has his loyal disciples saying they will follow him yet again, despite his previous 'failures'; just like Huaisang was ready to die with him. They have so much trust in him, and the way he's nodding a little here, just like he was nodding when Huaisang reminded him of everything he's done for their sect since their father died, is like he's convincing himself of it. That he can do this and he can do this right this time.

And yet

He fails again. And I don't even think he knows it was him who killed those disciples, like some people say. He doesn't need to because it doesn't matter. His men, who followed him till the end of the world, are dead again. And so is the hope he had of doing this one right thing before he dies.

Yes, he supressed the saber spirit like he had to, but they're still dead, all of them.

He falls apart, how could he not?

At some point I'm sure Huaisang his holding all his weight because he just gives up. There's only so much loss one can handle and that's way too much.

And look at the way Huaisang is watching him as he realizes something inside Mingjue shattered forever.

There's so much pain in this scene, it looks physically taxing and I hope people gave Wang Yizhou a break after he shot this. I know it's his job and he's phenomenal at it, but this has to mess with your head a little.

And hey, it's a Huaisang crying scene as well. CQL Huaisang only really cries twice. First he watches his brother have a mental breakdown in his arms after unknowingly killing his own disciples; and then as he watches his brother qi deviate and die, while unable to do anything to either stop or comfort him.

(And a lot of people said there's no hesitation on Huaisang's part when he rushes to his brother's aid when Mingjue is hurt on this post's notes, and that's true for book Huaisang too, because he runs towards Mingjue as he is qi deviating, gets hurt in the process, and still keeps calling for him, which makes CQL's decision to have JGY holding him back kind of cruel, tbh, there's not a Huaisang who would run from a hurting Mingjue regardless of the risks

But at least we have this scene.)

And that's it, I guess. There's nothing uplifting to say about this, really. He just went through a lot and kept shouldering everything until he couldn't anymore. I just wish book NMJ had gotten to receive the same love and comfort and acceptance from NHS before he died, I wish he had been able to tell his brother what was actually happening, but thats kind of the purpose of this movie, so I'm just very grateful that it exists.

It's like that post says, it didn't change anything but the love was there, you know? That's how this movie feels for me.

[whetstonefires]

the simplest way to summarize the question of how old Wei Wuxian was at time of death is to say that there are multiple timeskips the length whereof is defined only as 'years' after the last time his age is stated in even approximate terms, so he probably died somewhere between 22 and 27.

you can expand it upward way more easily than downward, because there are a lot more minimum times things took available than maximum.

27 is the funniest option because it means when he gets back, all his old peers are 40.

[beneath-a-moonlit-lake]

Rereading MDZS again and I don't think it really matters at all whether the music changed before or after Nie Mingjue kicked Jin Guangyao down the stairs because the Song of Turmoil was actually a pre-emptive strike that JGY made against NMJ.

Even if the music only changed after NMJ kicked JGY down the stairs, the timeline does mean that JGY had the altered Song of Clarity prepared and ready to use at most a few days directly after after the staircase incident. This means that -

JGY has already broken into the forbidden section of the Cloud Recesses's library and taken advantage of Lan Xichen's trust

JGY had already determined that the death of NMJ was an acceptable/desirable outcome before NMJ became a credible threat to him.

And JGY most certainly was not living in fear of NMJ. A lot of JGY's plans were dependent on the fact that NMJ wouldn't actually harm him. The escape after the murder of the Jin Captain, witnessing the assassination of WRH, letting Xue Yang off the hook, all of it was dependent on the belief that NMJ would relent and give him a second chance. He was actively volunteering to remain within easy reach of NMJ by playing the guqin for him.

It's hard to believe that the 3zun relationship was a real commitment for JGY. I think he chose his father, or at least, the kind of politics that his father was willing to engage in a long time ago. There was a conflict between that and the things that NMJ/LXC believed in, and the 3zun relationship was an acceptable loss that JGY made his peace with long before the cracks in the 3zun became impossible to overlook. Even the LXC/JGY connection is no exception. He might not have wanted LXC dead, but he was certainly willing to betray and discard that relationship. You cannot tell me that the man who had an escape route to Dongying plotted out even at the height of his power and status would not have considered the possibility that LXC might have suspected something.

I actually think the loss of the relationship was Qin Su would have been far more devastating to JGY despite the tiny amount of screentime that she had in the story. His relationship with Qin Su was a real and uncomplicated pleasure that JGY had in his life, with no direct conflict to his ambitions or his father's demands. It was a future and a family that was destroyed when the incestuous connection was revealed.

[prince-liest]

some recent thoughts on Nie Mingjue and Jin Guangyao, and why even though I find Nie Mingjue very frustrating in the midst of his Baxia-induced anger issues, I think he’s also a pretty sympathetic character as a whole and it’s really understandable why he thinks the way he does

(as someone who ships 3zun and nieyao, and through the lens of “Jin Guangyao is my blorbo”)

I’ve seen a tendency to paint NMJ and JGY’s relationship in black and white in terms of who was fundamentally more in the right, which to be honest is not really the approach I take to fandom in general. to me the tragedy is that NMJ and JGY before JGY's casting-out had immense respect and perhaps even love (platonic, romantic, whatever) for each other. in the end, a lack of mutual understanding of each others' circumstances that could have otherwise eventually been overcome was driven, by bigotry, Jin Guangshan, and the Nie cultivation style, into becoming an insurmountable difference that eventually killed them both

NMJ definitely Did Not Get where JGY was coming from when JGY was making survival decisions and keeping secrets. he was simply not raised in a way where he ever even had to think about the types of choices that JGY has been forced to make since he was quite young. but at the same time, NMJ was a teenager raising his brother and his sect from a very young age and I think it's a disservice to his character to fail to acknowledge that his entire life he expected to die a young and horrific death, just like he watched his father die, and that this expectation deeply colors his approach to the world. JGY plays the long game. NMJ does not get to think about that, he just has to raise his brother, win a war, and try not to drive his sect into the ground before he kicks the bucket in a violent and gruesome manner. he does not have a choice about any of these things.

and said things are extremely difficult to do, especially as a teenager, which I think is a reflection of MDZS's whole thing where their entire generation is just traumatized by war and conflict and a dearth of genuine, honorable guidance and leadership, which leads to such fractures

but it's also a series of tasks that required the kind of attitude that Nie Mingjue develops, and that in combination with Baxia’s influence gives him this really immovable perspective on life that he just won't budge on with JGY. I think it’s really significant that when Jin Guangyao does regularly play Clarity for NMJ, they get along quite well. and I also think it's really understandable why NMJ is so stubborn and headstrong - he's had to fight his way through being sect leader and not take "no" for an answer, because what the hell else can a young, new leader do to avoid being taken advantage of? frankly even if he had taken up a bit of whatever guile Nie Huaisang didn’t hog from the Nie gene pool... why would he direct it towards self-preservation? he has no room for that kind of fear because he is going to be dead in a few years.

importantly as well, Nie Mingjue unjustly judges Jin Guangyao because he is unable to understand the context that JGY is coming from, but that same righteousness is the reason that he's the first person to have given Meng Yao a fair shake and rewarded his hard work and labor, and that matters a lot to Jin Guangyao and their relationship as a whole. you can’t really have one without the other unless you give Nie Mingjue time to grow up.

unfortunately, Nie Mingjue died his 20s, and was in his teens when the Sunshot Campaign began. look me in the eyes and explain to me what kind of behavior you expect from a 20-something with a magic rage sword.

[mikkeneko]

What we miss when we don't talk about friendship (in MDZS)

I'd like to open with the statement that this is not about shipping -- none of my thesis is to say "don't ship this" or "this ship isn't real." People can and have shipped whatever the hell they want and should continue to do so for as long as it makes you happy. It's not even a question of "sure you can ship it but it's not CANON," because the MXTX canon is wonderfully good at being ambiguous and supporting multiple interpretations.

What this thesis is to say is that some of these themes and motifs to explore are about friendship, and they don't tend to get talked about much, because people are mostly focused on the romantic and sexual dimensions of a dynamic. Romantic and sexual dimensions are great, but they don't annihilate or even subsume platonic dimensions -- yes, sometimes you can be a lover and a friend, but sometimes you can just be a friend and not a lover and that's no less important. As a post I saw recently said which stuck with me -- don't remember the poster, alas, but it was something in the vein of -- "it's not about the intensity of the relationship, but the flavor of it." Platonic character dynamics can be just as obsessive and consuming as romantic dynamics, they can be discussed and analyzed separately without needing to invalidate romantic and sexual dynamics.

So! That disclaimer aside, let's talk about: FRIENDSHIP IN MDZS, and what we miss when we don't talk about friendship as a dynamic in this story separate from romantic and sexual interest. Friendship shows up repeatedly in this story with its own sub-plots and arcs and undercurrents and hazards separate from the romance that's going on, and it's mostly going on with the Lans.

Part 1: Lan Xichen and friendship

A cornerstone of this analysis has to do with a meta post I read very early on in the fandom about the Lans when viewed through a Confucian lens. Lan Qiren in particular is a very, very Confucian character, and he raised his nephews to those traditions and values. The pertinent one here is the topic of the "Five relationships" which outline the relationships that a man of authority can expect to have throughout his lifetime: self to ancestors, self to descendents, self to authorities and subordinates, self to marriage partners, and self to friends. Each one comes with a set of strictures and requirements which when added up combine to a world that is very, very emotionally taxing and extremely short on interpersonal and emotional support. He is expected to obey and submit to guidance from his seniors, but he can't ask them for help. He is expected to lead and govern his subjects, but he can never be wrong or show weakness or doubt. It's especially important, I think, that Lan Xichen is raised to expect that even any romantic relationship he might have (read: marriage to a woman) would not actually be emotionally supportive to him in any meaningful way; it would be another set of obligations to uphold, another place he would be expected to be remote and poised and never show weakness or ask for help.

The exception is friendship. Friendship is the only relationship structure Lan Xichen can have in his life that has any hope of actually being nurturing and emotionally supporting to him, a place he can let down his guard and ask for help with the expectation of receiving it. It becomes very clear from very early on that friendship means everything to Lan Xichen as a character. He enters the story with a strong, supportive friendship with one of the only true peers a man of station can have (Nie Mingjue) and it's clear that this has formatively set his expectation of what a friendship can and should be. Lan Xichen really wants to be the Friendship Is Magic guy. He believes that friendship is the best way to solve problems, and that everybody would be able to solve their problems if only they had a friendship like his, and that belief is a lot of what runs him into a meat grinder later in the story. He thinks that Nie Mingjue and Jin Guangyao are capable of maintaining a friendship post-war, and does not understand why they cannot, and his attempts to friend-matchmake the two of them ultimately lead both to disaster.

Part 2: Lan Wangji and friendship

The header says Lan Wangji, but this is actually about Lan Xichen again, and about Wei Wuxian. A pretty common joke in the fandom is that Lan Xichen is "the #1 WangXian shipper," that he recognizes Lan Wangji's sexual and romantic attraction to Wei Wuxian from very early on and supports him in pursuing such a relationship. It's a nice joke, but I think it misses the mark, because the looming specter of their parents' disastrous and traumatic marriage means that Lan Xichen would never approach the idea of his brother entering into a romantic relationship so cavalierly. (Lan Qiren, in some ways, had a clearer notion of what shape Lan Wangji's interest in Wei Wuxian had the potential to be than Lan Xichen did, perhaps because he doesn't have the same obsession with friendship; if he has any close friendships of his own, we're not shown them.)

Lan Xichen is not encouraging Lan Wangji to have a romantic summer fling. Lan Xichen encourages his association with Wei Wuxian specifically because he thinks Lan Wangji needs friends. Not just in the sense of any parent or adult wanting their child to make friends, but specifically in the context of these restrictive hierarchical relationships that hem in their world. Lan Xichen is afraid that Lan Wangji will be alone, and emotionally starved, and have no one he can ask for help or rely on, because that is his experience of a world without friendship. (Lan Wangji, of course, is not in the same position as Lan Xichen because he has Lan Xichen to rely on.) Lan Xichen wants Lan Wangji to have the same kind of friendship that he himself has with Nie Mingjue, and he thinks that Wei Wuxian has the potential to be that kind of friend. That is the context in which he encourages their association, and tries to arrange for them to have time together, and to become closer; not as a potential romantic partner but as a steadfast emotional and logistical support through Lan Wangji's adult life.

If Lan Xichen knew that Lan Wangji would fall in love with Wei Wuxian (had already started to,) I'm not at all sure that he would have encouraged that. In pretty much any arc past the Lan Lectures, he doesn't, both because Wei Wuxian stopped being a good candidate for supportive friendship (he's clearly got too much of his own shit going on) and because he realizes that what is developing in Lan Wangji bears very little resemblence to his own relationships. He might not outright try to sabotage the relationship but he's clearly worried about its potential to bring disaster on Wangji -- and he's very correct to be worried, as it turns out.

Part 3: Lan Sizhui and friendship

So, All Of That Happens; Wei Wuxian dies, Lan Wangji is laid low for years and seems poised to grieve for the rest of his life; Nie Mingjue dies and takes Lan Xichen's support with him. Now we come to the present day, and the present day has Lan Sizhui and Lan Jingyi.

Let's take a moment to step back and ask from an analytical perspective: Why is Lan Jingyi, as a character, in the story? Assuming that in a novel as polished as MDZS, each element is included for good reasons. Why is Lan Jingyi in the story and why is he Lan Sizhui's best friend? In the new world we're introduced to, the Lan are already represented, and very positively represented by Lan Sizhui. Lan Jingyi provides a convenient avenue for both exposition-dumping and sass -- saying the things that everyone else is too polite to say -- but we could have gotten that through another character (Jin Ling also plays this role) or introduced another Junior who isn't Lan, like Ouyang Zizhen. Why is it important to the story that Lan Sizhui and Lan Jingyi are friends?

The Juniors in general represent hope for the world to change, hope for the new generation. In Lan Sizhui and Lan Jingyi, we see that the terrible loneliness that drove their seniors to disaster in the previous generation, is averted. Lan Sizhui and Lan Jingyi have a friendship that is close and true, and we are never given reason to doubt it. Their priorities are aligned; it's unlikely that Sect politics or personality conflicts will ever drive them apart. They have what Lan Xichen craved: a friendship that will support them through tragedy and disaster. Their friendship stands to demonstrate that in the new generation, things will get better.

[naehja]

You know, considering Huaisang's reaction, this explosion of anger is really never happened before. And Mingjue would never have spoke so cruelly to Huaisang like that before.

Until now Mingjue was stern and grumpy but here he really crossed a line. Few weeks before, he wouldn't have destroyed the things that Huaisang cherished, even if he didn't like those hobbies. He had threatened to do it, but it was just a threat (Huaisang didn't take that seriously).

He's likely the one who let Huaisang have that as hobbies at first. He was most displeased because he felt that JGY was encouraging Huaisang in his hobbies to annoy him (he was not totally wrong), encouraging him to not train and to disobey him (to make him angry).

And considering that, here, it's the first time that Jin Guangyao comes back to Qinghe after have been kicked on the stairs, i think that he played the modified song of clarity before this event.

Because even kicking JGY on the stairs + calling him a "son of prostitute" was out of character. He shouldn't have had this explosion of anger if the song of clarity was been correctly played to him.

It's not being called son of prostitute who decided JGY to kill Mingjue, he had already started to mind poison him. After all, in the Untamed, the fatal QI deviation happens just AFTER Mingjue's kicks JGY and call him like that (and JGY says, more or less "have you never realized that my song of clarity wasn't fully the same than when Xichen played it?").

[lgbtlunaverse]

So I've said multipe times now (here and here) that thinking nmj is just so blinded by privilege he doesn't undertand that acting out of line gets people killed is, in my opinion, a misunderstanding of his character that ignores the part where he's, you know, actively dying the whole time and thinks that's a good thing. But that doesn't mean I don't think privilege plays no role at all in how he views the world.

Specifically, his view that death (at least premature or violent death) means something.

Death isn't always a tragedy to NMJ, but it is always meaningful. If you kill an evil dangerous person for your righteous cause, that death had meaning. There was evil in the world and now there is less of it. Similarly, if you die in the pursuit of your righteous cause, that death has meaning, because the sheer dedication you gave to it that you were willing to die for it will further that cause, and your bretheren will be invigorated by your sacrifice to fight even harder.

If a death isn't meaningful, that's an injustice and it is up to the living to give it meaning. That's what cuts so deep about his father's murder. There were no consequences, no changes, no meaning. Wen Ruohan was just going to get away with it! He fights and wins an entire war to make it mean something, to make it so that the unjust murder of Nie Mingjue's father is part of Wen Ruohan's downfall.

But this is a view he can only hold because he's the kind of person who's death will be meaningful. Most ordinary people's deaths are meaningless. Not ontologically, not inherently, but they are made meaningless because no one cares. For death to be meaningful you either have to be so powerful that anything you risk your life for will be impacted in some way. (Like, say, if you sacrifice a long life for immense martial power in a faustian bargain with a blade) Or if people with that kind of power care enough about you to do so for you. For most people, this isn't true. A starving street kid has no power to change the unfair world that put them there, even if they risk their life trying, and no one will do it for them once they die.

Nie Mingjue knows this in abstract, and of course rightfully believes it's wrong. But all that does is make it yet another righteous cause people should be willing to die for. Everyone's deaths should mean something, we'll make it so or die trying!

This is what the conflict between nieyao is about at its core. Because Jin Guangyao, fundamentally, cannot conceive of his own death as meaningful. Nie Mingjue grew up around powerful men who could change the world but refuse to do so because god forbid they risk a single hair on their perfect heads. Meng Yao, on the other hand, grew up in an environment where no one of importance would blink twice if you died. He was surrounded by meaningless death. Indeed his entire early life is defined by that lack of care.

Meng Shi dies and no one cares. Meng Yao gets thrown off a flight off stairs and no one cares. He has to be the one to do the caring, and once he's gone no one else will do it for him.

So he has to live.

Jin Guangyao eventually gets far enough that he actually does aquire the power to change some things... as long as he's alive. If he changes too much, holds on too tightly to his ideals, he'll die and it'll all be for nothing. He can't sacrifice himself for his goals because doing so would immediately render those goals unobtainable. No one will care about what he tried to do. He won't be a heroic sacrifice, he'll just be trash that finally cleaned itself up.

And well... Nie Mingjue dies, and someone makes it mean something. Makes it mean so much that the entire story of mdzs would not exist without it. Jin Guangyao dies and it doesn't mean anything. Most people are glad to be rid of him, and the few that are not don't do anything to change that.

[withthewindinherfootsteps]

Parallels in the Yi City arc: Yi City Quartet & 3Zun

(Long post ahead!)

I think one overlooked detail about the Yi City arc is how closely its characters parallel the story of 3Zun – with Xiao Xingchen as Lan Xichen, Xue Yang as Jin Guangyao, and Song Lan and A-Qing as aspects of Nie Mingjue! Though we can't know if its intentional, the sheer number of similarities does suggest to me that it shouldn't be overlooked – so, let's investigate.

Both Xiao Xingchen and Lan Xichen play the role of the 'betrayed' — significantly, because of some sort of blindness.

While for Xiao Xingchen this is physical, Lan Xichen is also blind to Jin Guangyao's true nature. This blindness has been shaped by their betrayer: Xue Yan blinded Song Lan, leading to Xiao Xingchen sacrificing his own eyes for him, while Jin Guangyao deliberately acts to make himself appear honourable and innocent to the people he encounters. This means Lan Xichen cannot 'see' anything contradictory to this about him. This theme of blindness becomes important to the thematic implications of this arc, which we'll talk about later.

In both cases, the 'betrayer' has some role in shaping this blindness, and uses it to their advantage.

Xue Yang blinded Song Lan, causing Xiao Xingchen to give up his eyes for him. Jin Guangyao's crafted persona is the reason Lan Xichen doesn't suspect anything about him. Xue Yang uses Xiao Xingchen's blindness to conceal his identity/nature and thus get close to an unsuspecting him; Jin Guangyao is likewise able to be unsuspected, while using Lan Xichen's generosity to murder Nie Mingjue and gaining a strong ally/defender. Regardless of intent towards Lan Xichen himself, this is still true.

This leads to an identity reveal and betrayal, in which the former party is blindsided (...pun not intended, I couldn't find a better word).

Xiao Xingchen is shocked that Xue Yang is Xue Yang when A-Qing tells him; Lan Xichen likewise does not want to believe Jin Guangyao isn't the person he thought he knew (though, he does promise to evaluate his beliefs!), and when Jin Guangyao ends up sealing his spiritual powers and betraying him, he doesn't see it coming.

Additionally, Lan Xichen and Xiao Xingchen are both tricked into stabbing a member of their group, as a part of someone else's revenge.

For Lan Xichen, it's an outside party (Nie Huaisang); for Xiao Xingchen, it's another member of this group (Xue Yang). Nie Huaisang wanted to take revenge on Jin Guangyao, and Xue Yang wanted to take revenge on Xiao Xingchen himself.

Also, Lan Xichen was tricked by his Xue Yang counterpart into being an instrument for a group member's murder, which could also parallel these events on Xiao Xingchen's side!

So, why is this important?

A common theme in MDZS is being critical of information/rumours. Don't accept something at first glance – question the validity, the evidence, the reason it's being brought up. We see this in the way Lan Wangji acts (eg when discussingg the case of the Chang clan) and in how he teaches the Juniors; we see this in how Wei Wuxian questions the words and intentions of Sisi and Bicao, even when having people suspect Jin Guangyao would be beneficial to him; we see this in the very premise of the novel, as something we were led to believe was true at first glance (by the title and prologue) is proven to be entirely false.

And, in Lan Xichen and Xiao Xingchen's case, we see the dangers of the opposite. That's not blaming them – Jin Guangyao is a very good manipulator and I’d argue Lan Xichen handled the situation very well when it was raised, and Xiao Xingchen was physically blind and couldn’t have guessed the body on the roadside would be Xue Yang of all people – but factually, both characters believed something without having seen the full picture, and were stabbed in the back for it. Lan Xichen could have considered Nie Minjue's words to provide another perspective, and Xiao Xingchen could have inquired into this mysterious person's background and questioned whether they were exploitative (even if it may have been unreasonable, and wouldn't have changed much since Xue Yang is a very good liar), yet both didn't. They both do accept or try to accept what we know is the truth when it's raised to them, but unfortunately it's too late and both pay a steep price. It's also worth noting that both are considered righteous figures (you can debate about Lan Xichen, but that's his in-universe perception), and neither had malicious intent towards any group member. But it doesn't matter how good your intentions are, or how good of a person you are – if you believe things unquestioningly, it'll still lead to harm. Both to you, and unintentionally by you, too. After all, this unquestioning acceptance of one-sided hearsay is a major driver of the mob mentality so heavily critiqued in the book.

And yes, this could've worked had their stories not so closely paralleled each others' – but I'd argue Xiao Xingchen's physical blindness serves to lampshade the metaphorical blindness of Lan Xichen, accentuating this theme. And also having two similar stories helps draw attention to what both of them are saying much more easily than if the stories had been very different.

At the end, however, Lan Xichen is left alive and able to reflect on what led him to this scenario – unlike his spiritual predecessor. Perhaps this is a glimmer of hope, a sign that there is more room for the questioning of rumours and for critical thinking skills in the world now, especially as the younger generation who embodies this begins to grow up; or perhaps it's just another detail of just how doomed Xiao Xingchen was, because despite embodying this theme, was there anything to reflect on and do differently, that would've changed the outcome of his story? As we said before, Xue Yang is a very good liar, and there really wasn't a reason to constantly suspect him from the information Xiao Xingchen had and (more importantly) could feasibly gather. Regardless, the difference in where they end up is important when analysing similarities, and I'm inclined to believe it is a small sign the world can change for the better.

(Similarities on other members under the cut – because there are a lot for everyone else, too, and this post isn't just about the two mentioned above. Once more, we'll be analysing both the 'what' and the 'why'.)

Xue Yang and Jin Guangyao play the role of the 'betrayer' or 'villain', hiding the fact that they're causing and wanting to cause harm – successfully from one member, unsuccessfully from the other(s).

The 'What'

Both kill the suspecting, the main difference being who they're targeting with this action (for Xue Yang, this taints Xiao Xingchen further, whereas Jin Guangyao was simply targeting Nie Mingjue and not Lan Xichen at all). Additionally, both are from a lower-class*, non-cultivator background, who were taken in by the Jin sect and rose to power through this and through doing… morally dubious things. Both share revenge as a motivator – specifically, revenge against an older, male Sect Leader who used them, rejected them and physically harmed them in some way too (Chang Ci'An due to Xue Yang being a street child; Jin Guangshan due to Jin Guangyao being the ‘son of a prostitute’). However, they have both accomplished this revenge goal at the time of their main story. They also have worked together and helped each other in their actions in the past (Villainous Friends extra). Also, both end up losing a hand to Lan Wangji, coincidentally enough.

The 'Why'

Though classism is a present theme in both their stories, I wouldn’t say this is what the parallels are drawing attention to — it’s drawn attention to much more when dealing with Jin Guangyao, and the idea that being treated badly isn’t an excuse for your actions is more prevalent in contrast (with characters like WWX and A-Qing) than similarities. Thematically, they instead serve to show just how easily information can be twisted and distributed – and again, why it's so important we don't accept everything at first glance. Outside of themes, their parallels do contrast them slightly, too — after all, Jin Guangyao’s treatment of Lan Xichen** is much more positive than Xue Xang’s of Xiao Xingchen, despite the ‘betrayed’ treating both of the similarly. But, one could argue, how much does this actually matter? Considering the eventual harm brought to this figure by them regardless, and everything else each of them did? Whatever the answer, the questions are raised by these similarities between them.

Finally, Nie Mingjue is paralleled by both Song Lan and A-Qing in different ways, though the Song Lan parallels are more prominent.

The 'What': Song Lan

All three were killed by the ‘betrayer’ — however, both Nie Mingjue’s and Song Lan’s murders occured before the betrayal, and their deaths and post-mortem identity reveals play an important role in it. A-Qing witnessing Song Lan’s death (as well as just discovering Xue Yang’s identity from Song Lan) is what makes her tell Xiao Xingchen who Xue Yang is, catalysing that betrayal, and Xiao Xingchen discovering Song Lan’s identity makes the betrayal have… let’s say even more of an impact :’). Meanwhile, the identity reveal of the mysterious corpse triggers the investigation of Jin Guangyao, and also starts to catalyse his downfall, leading to the events of the Guanyin temple. Additionally, both turn into fierce corpses encountered by the cast of the main story (both fighting Wen Ning and starting more antagonistic than they end up), with these corpses having been modified in some way by the ‘betrayer’: Nie Mingjue’s corpse is cut up, and Song Lan’s has the needles inserted and is under Xue Yang’s control. I wouldn’t especially say there are themes or questions raised here, it’s more similarities in the group dynamic, but it’s still very interesting to see.

There isn't as much to say here on the 'why' side of things, though there may be something I'm missing. The role of these characters here is mainly in service of the themes in the other characters' arcs – but it's still useful to analyse just how many factual similarities there are, again to give us hints as to whether these parallels between the groups were intentional or not.

The 'What': A-Qing

A-Qing and Nie Mingjue have less parallels, but they definitely exist. Their role here is their constant suspicion — they both suspect and keep suspecting the ‘betrayer’’s actions, despite the trust of the ‘betrayed’ in them (though Nie Mingjue is certainly more violent in this regard). Additionally, both play an important role in the death of the ‘betrayer’ as undead beings: the ghost of A-Qing by constantly tapping her bamboo pole to reveal Xue Yang’s position, and Nie Mingjue’s fierce corpse by directly killing Jin Guangyao. Both are souls through which Wei Wuxian experiences the events of their stories, and both also end the story in some sort of container — Nie Mingjue in the coffin and A-Qing’s broken soul in a spirit-trapping pouch — but admittedly that’s much more flimsy than the rest of my points.

The 'Why': A-Qing

Though at first glance it seems like this suspicion didn't do anything positive for the characters – both ended up dead at the hands of the one spreading/taking advantage of misinformation – it's important to note that these characters are the characters the truth is revealed through. Though I'd argue Nie Mingjue was probably blinded by his own assumptions as much as Lan Xichen was blinded by his own, even if it did end up lining up more closely with the truth, he still plays the same role as A-Qing in questioning and suspecting somebody despite it appearing – on the surface – that there's nothing wrong. And I don't think it's coincidence that in both these cases, the truth is revealed through somebody who did play this role.

Final Thoughts

Though it is possible these parallels were still coincidences, there really are a lot of similarities between the groups' storylines – and they do serve the purpose of important themes within the book. Therefore, I don't think it's unreasonable to assume they were intentional on some level! And even if I'm reading too far into things and they weren't? It doesn't mean they hold no value.

Finally, these parallels are really interesting on their own, but it’s also really interesting to compare where each group ended up. Both groups ended up destroyed due to murder done by the ‘betrayer’, with only one person left standing. However, while Xue Yang was the survivor of the Yi city group (and was later killed by LWJ), the survivor of the Venerated Triad was Lan Xichen — someone who, as mentioned, though heavily affected, now has the chance to grow as a person and fully take things with all their context because of it. So despite the prevalence in the Jianghu of the attitude MXTX is critiquing, despite Wei Wuxian, Lan Wangji and Mianmian only really being able to find peace by stepping away rather than changing it, despite the tragedy of the stories of both the Yi City quartet and of 3zun... ultimately, these parallels could indicate hope.

—

*Although there is a big difference in how much lower this class is, of course.

**There is also the aspect of Xue Yang having a negative past with Xiao Xingchen before, with the opposite being true for Jin Guangyao and Lan Xichen. Jin Guangyao is known to have a good memory and hold grudges — so, if the pairs’ roles were reversed, would anything fundamentally change?

[tavina-writes]

I have been recently thinking about NHS and JGY's relationship, especially as it pertains to how much they understand each other, and I'm pretty sure the conclusion I'm coming to is that JGY doesn't actually understand NHS at all except like, in vague superficiality?

This is not an argument about whether or not JGY cared about NHS (though he seems to have some pretty big blind spots on what is actually good for NHS or what he actually desires, which, again come back to not really understanding what makes NHS tick) because I don't think you can spend well over a decade cleaning up someone else's problems without caring for the person in question. But more like, the events of the Temple and the Discussion Conference prior to the Temple and indeed anything leading up to the Temple at all would not have occurred if JGY actually understood? NHS? at all?

Like, obviously NHS was concealing the truth and acting while he proceeded with his revenge scheme, JGY (who presumably had some amount of time to think about who could possibly want him dead/disgraced/fleeing off to Dongyin) doesn't even begin to suspect that the person who wrote the letter and arranged all of this might be NHS until LXC's already stabbed him.

That's a pretty big fucking blind spot considering the whole thing is being unearthed because of NMJ's murder corpse put together shenanigans. Like he knows to hide Chifeng-zun's head but not to suspect Chifeng-zun's brother???

Like I think this might go beyond "doesn't understand anything about this other person besides on a very superficial level" to "might genuinely have some pretty big MISconceptions about who this person is or what they're like."

[thatswhatsushesaid]

mdzs hot take i have reluctantly come to embrace: the story fucks way harder when you actively empathize with every single character you encounter in the text and resolve not to hate any of them.

yes, even the character you hate that you’re currently thinking about right now. maybe especially that one.

[wutheringskies]

The Lans and Nies have no right to check and intrude between whatever is going on between Wei Wuxian, the Wen remnants and the Jins. Yet, they somehow have enough rights to go and witness the deaths of Wen Qing and Wen Ning with their clan disciples. And why were these two being killed? Because Jin Zixuan died by the hands of Wen Ning in an ambush set forth by the Jins upon Wei Wuxian, who was invited to Koi Tower by the Jins! So, it's definitely the Jin's matter, yet now you guys can come!

And what ends up happening? Somehow, Wen Ning who is being supported by Hanguang-jun loses control and ... kills Lans and Nies? Not the Jins! In the Jin palace! In an event orchestrated by the Jins! Death by a fierce corpse that the Jins should have prepared for! A whole ass cultivation sect? And a fierce corpse can go and kill whoever it wants?

But great!

Because you guys didn't ever go and check what the matter at Burial Mounds actually was like, because not your problem! Now, it has become your problem and you're forced to take part in the oath ceremony to go raze the Burial Mounds, and then you know, to defend himself, Wei Wuxian comes! And somehow it's his fault for "slaughtering." As if you guys weren't going along with the flow, not even questioning for a second why the smart Yiling Laozu would kill the people who could have stood up for him? And then what? You guys were present at the Oath Ceremony so more of you ended up dying, and now you have to go and take part in the slaughter of 50 innocent men and women and old people!!

Just because you were in positions of power, yet chose inaction. You got completely played! Naive.

Now, that's not enough yet.

Now, there's only two people who could've saved Nie Mingjue - Wei Wuxian and Wen Qing. But they're both already gone! Perhaps if Lan Wangji wasn't in seclusion, he would've stood up against the slaughter of all those minor clans who "tried to assassinate sect leader Jin"! But he is!

Now, Lan Xichen would rather shrug off both of his sworn brothers showing utmost hostility towards each other and increasing amounts of killing intent as a misunderstanding. He would think, oh he's being so nice and nuanced, understanding how people have to sometimes do bad things to maintain peace :((

Like, Lan Xichen's whole identity is built over avoiding conflict. When it comes to good and evil, there is no third side. How can you preach righteousness if you're not willing to carry the burden of morality? Sympathy doesn't equate to righteousness. Perhaps, if be wasn't a sect leader, he'd be good. But when you're a sect leader, being good isn't enough! Your inaction amounts to hundreds of lives.

Wei Wuxian perhaps has the most blood on his hands yet he values even the life of some useless servant, or some half-dead grandmother. You're all letting entire clans die to maintain a peaceful environment and you're thinking you're being righteous. If you have doubts then check them out!

Why are Wei Wuxian and Lan Wangji so fated?

Well, firstly they've seen how "ugly" the other can get. Lan Wangjj knows that Wei Wuxian can turn up the heavens for righteousness, that he'll gladly walk through hell, if he could he would even offer up his own pieces of flesh. Wei Wuxian knows Lan Wangji cannot pretend things are okay when they're not. He is stubborn to no end with what he believes to be right, is willing to bear each and every consequence. He'd rather do what he thinks is right and accept the punishment later, whatever that will be.

In the face of truth, you can't hide, and you can't be prejudiced.

Wei Wuxian was hurt so much by Wen Chao, thrown into the Burial Mounds yet he brought the same surnamed Wens into Burial Mounds willingly to protect them! How can Nie Mingjue simply act on his hatred? In your righteousness to kill all evil, you started killing without exceptions and became the evil himself!

And why does Lan Xichen not have anything to say about Xue Yang? "Er-ge... this is what father wants." But Jin Guangshan is also a sect leader! Lan Xichen is also a sect leader!

I wonder what Lan Xichen said to Wangji after his visit to the Burial Mounds.

"Xiongzhang, there isn't an army but a child, the elderly, the women."

"Wangji. I understand. But Wei-gongzi has really upset the orthodox society now. It is no longer about the Wens. His cultivation is evil, and he holds the Tiger Seal... he even brought back Wen Ning's consciousness... you believe you know him..."

And boom, tell that to Jin Guangyao and three days later, everyone knows about Wen Ning. Props to Wei Wuxian and Lan Wangji for not holding grudges towards anyone and simply riding off to the sunset and even helping everyone who never tried to understand their true hearts.

Both of them are really blessed.