#new52 rhato

[s-c-g-s-c-g]

Now that I'm back into DC and reading comics again I've been thinking a bit about why I left. I've been in many fandoms over the years and as far as I can tell, DC is the only one where my departure felt very sudden and out of the blue. Anyways, I remembered today.

I read the first issue of Red Hood and the Outlaws (2011).

That's the thing that killed it. That issue.

Little teenager me, years-long devourer of comics both good and terrible, read that one issue and the interest withered away like it was never there in the first place. It's been so long I thought it was gone for good.

[mangoisms]

not a sentence i was expecting to read tonight but ok

[danny-chase]

@batgirlandthebirds re your tags: about this being because Dick "failed and neglected" Jason

You hit one of my biggest pet peeves on how fandom interprets Dick and Jason's relationship, and his subsequent relationship with Tim which I've commented on here and cleared up misconceptions here. Obviously you don't have to care about the old comic canon, but please don't reblog my posts with "Dick failed or neglected Jason", because i find the take annoying, especially considering Dick had little to no responsibility for someone who wasn't his kid, lived in a different city, and who he (in post crisis) quite literally didn't know about for months after Bruce took in

Not to obsess over Dick and Tim's brotherly relationship again but the way Tim time and time again sees Dick at his lowest and still falls into the childlike hero worship makes me chew on cardboard. Tim was there on Dick's failed wedding day, he was there in the aftermath of Dick being passed over for the mantle in Batman: Prodigal, Dick told Tim about his percieved failure with Two-Face, Tim had to pull Dick off the Joker after he murdered him, watched him apparently quit the hero game after War Games, and after all of that still has complete faith in Dick. It's that moment as a toddler cemented in Tim's head, watching Dick perform as a Flying Grayson, but also all those small moments years later, when he needed someone to talk to and Dick picked up the phone when he called, the promises of never letting anything happen to him, and the gift of one of the original Robin costumes, the consistency and the certainty, the fooling around and goofing off, and Dick proclaiming Tim his brother years before Bruce adopted either of them as sons.

[perseus-jackass]

Hey I'm pretty new to the bat fandom but I have read a decent amount of comics and it seems like Jason likes Tim I mean I wouldn't say besties but he doesn't hate him. Is this something that was retconned or is it not like a thing in the fandom? I'm just slightly confused?

Hi okay! It’s a bit complicated. It really depends on what canon you’re talking about. I mostly enjoy pre and post-crisis Jason and some of rebirth.

Basically Tim did a lot of shit talking Jason after he died. Very “Jason was reckless and got himself killed.” And then Jason came back. And they really DID NOT get along. And the thing is most of what the fandom says about their interactions tends to be really exaggerated to make Tim look like a victim? I don’t know it’s odd because they’re at max 3 years apart there. 

Them being close originally came from new52 which was… not a great time for ANYONE but especially Jason. (RHATO you could have been so good 😔) and we never see how they got close. It goes from constant fighting to being close. It’s just weird.

And then rebirth. They’re still kind of close? But they fight sometimes again so it’s more realistic I guess? I still don’t like it but it’s better than n52. My thing with rebirth is that the entire family is kind of awful to Jason and I don’t think he should be canonically close to any of them.

And as for how the fandom views it. If you’re in the “Tim Drake & Jason Todd” tag on tumblr it’s almost alllll Tim whump with Jason taking care of him. Or Jason almost killing him. A lot of the fandom likes to baby Tim and it shows in how they write Jason. He’s either a big bad villain or Tim’s caretaker.

Also I just don’t like Tim lol. That’s going to color how I view their relationship.

[disniq]

Hi so uhhhh, not actually making any sort of relevant point about anything but I saw you guesstimating Jason's kill count and I have to justify the fact that I went panel by panel to hand count his kills SOMEHOW so like have the data please!!

Skipping dear Filipe's moldering corpse due to uncertainty, we start with Lost Days

Human Trafficking Truck Driver Ian, Egon, Steel Beam mercenary crew estimated at least five strong, three more of his teachers, eleven nameless russian mobsters, a cousin and a running buddy of a russian mobster: 23 people

Under the Red Hood

Eight heads in a duffel bag, four thugs with Freeze (Freezy boy does not die), Two confirmed on panel delivery man kills (Five-ten more suspected but we won't count em), Ten goons in the doorway when he swings the minigun on them as he and Onyx retreat, five more goons, Rocket launcher blast kills "most" of a security team with at least three members left alive so we'll call that three kills (far more deaths are implied), shoots a guy holding a lit molotov catching him on fire, then kills Captain Nazi (yay), forces Black Mask to kill six of his men, forces Some Guy to fight Black Mask to the death for him, and finally dear old Black Mask's PA is thrown through a window (his cycling class will miss him dearly): 42 people

(So, yeah, your ballpark of about a hundred give or take sounds about right, he's only got ~65 on panel, confirmed notches on his knife by the end of UtRH, and the implications seem to imply between 20 and 75 kills off screen)

That Time He Kidnapped Mia

Short and sweet, he only ices a pack of "brain donors": 5 people

Brothers in Blood

Two human traffickers, three more drug runner goons, two more goons later on: 7 people

Red Haired Foolishness Phase part one

Starting the running with two cops, lightning bug assassin, six mobstery big wigs, a guy, Flamingo: 11 people

Red Haired Foolishness Phase part two

Littleman Beaver's brother and his brother's fourteen goons, fifteen of his fellow inmates, then the grand poisoning of eighty-two people (well he poisoned more but we only get eighty-two confirmed as dead): 112 people

This is not even slightly a complete list, so consider this final number a lowball of:

Two Hundred people even!

as Jason's body count... at least pre-new52, don't ask me what's going on over there in modern canon, idk

Hope this was entertaining/useful to you in some way!

Best wishes -redhoodinternaldialectical

This is an amazing reference, thank you so much for sharing!!

I can fill most of the later stuff, because there's tragically little of it.

Nu52's attempt at giving Jason a concrete kill count was laughably low;

Red Hood and the Outlaws (2011) #21

Rebirth was mostly non-lethal, with the notable exception of the gang Jason uses to establish his new edgy loner lifestyle after the famous rhato 25 beatdown from Bruce.

RHATOs (2016) #26

I count 11 of them, and I think it's safe to say they're all dead.

But then he teams up with Batwoman, and then Bunker, and then becomes a teacher at Lex Luthor's school for potential supervillains so it sort of tapers off again.

And then... there's the piece of shit dad he killed in Cheer in 2021.

Batman: Urban Legends (2021) #1

As far as I'm aware, that's the last time he killed in main continuity.

When will my son return from the war

[comphetkoncass]

title: I Need To Forget, So Take Me to Florida rating: G wc: 3.6K relationships: DickKory, Dick&Kory continuity: new52/rebirth blend with a heavy fix-it element to tidy up rhato and starfire 2015 additional context: post-amnesia kory arc summary:

Dick Grayson had been one of Koriand'r's final tethers to the hero community. Erasing her memory hadn't worked the first time, or the second -- the universe didn't seem to think it was a healthy grieving method. So with no option to erase herself and start over again, what's a girl to do but escape to Key West, Florida? And what's a girl to do when her dead ex shows back up? (Takes place after 'Florida, Can I Use You Up?')

[cologona]

It’s because Talia didn’t revive Jason.

In the comics, Jason resurrected by himself due to cosmic mumbo jumbo and she only threw him in the pit because he had severe brain damage and she was out of time to try and heal him with regular medicine.

In the movie, Ra’s was the one who did the resurrection, and only because in that timeline he worked with the Joker so he felt responsible for Batman losing his child.

bois why do we accept the mess of comic book timelines? i was trying to write a fic and wanted to remember why talia revived jason.

why are there no straightforward reasons? why are there so many ways he got revived?

[kara-zor-els]

Task Force Z is what new52 RHATO should have been

[dyslexicandakeyboard]

Today's controversial take is that Bruce's character isn't assassinated all that much by writers, fans just don't like him as a fully fledged character with flaws in his own right.

Like I know Gotham War just happened but the last time (in my memory) he ever was physically abusive with the kids was Forever Evil/That-One-Panel-Where-Bruce-punched-Dick-New52 and UTRH/RHATO 25. It's been a good 10ish years since he hit Dick and a good 18 to 9 years since any of Bruce's and Jason's fights.

And no, Bruce hitting Tim doesn't count, that was explained.

That is a good couple of years between each event.

Bruce is a flawed individual, he's a flawed parent. Bruce has hurt his kids, physically and emotionally. Doesn't mean his abusive. I'm not saying Bruce never hit his kids, what I'm saying that it was more complex than that.

All this crying about how editorial doesn't want Bruce to be a good dad but that fandom does is petty bullshit. If you pick up a random issue Bruce ain't beating his kids or emotionally abusing his kids. You just don't read and expect the Batfamily to have Hallmark family dynamics.

No one wants to read the actual arc but they'll read out of context panels which dumb down the conflict.

Bruce hitting Dick during Bruce Wayne: Murderer was not abuse, they were fighting. Bruce hitting Dick during the Court of Owls was abuse. Bruce hitting Dick during Nightwing 30 wasn't abuse. Bruce hitting Dick during New Titans 55 was abuse. Just two times.

Bruce fighting Jason during UTRH wasn't abuse, it was self-defence. Bruce fighting Jason during RHATO wasn't abuse, they were fighting.

Bruce is consistently portrayed as a good but flawed parent. Even after post-crisis, even after Death in the Family, you will find good moments of Bruce being fatherly.

Such as (mind my shitty quality phone pics)

Knightfall

Robin

Batgirl

Batman: Fugitive/Batman: Murderer

Grayson

War Games (Funny I know)

obi there many more examples but I haven't read all comics nor do I have them on hand (Scrolling though pages is veery exhausting. Hashtag firstworldproblems)

[evasive-anon]

Just a reminder that the New52 really did give us the best Jason xmas special with RHATO Annual #2. This story had every thing: little bby outlaws being violent cutie pies, they get grounded by batman. they escape on the t-rex in the batcave and steal santa's sleigh, they find a war in the north pole, Mrs. Claus is a giant gingerbread woman who fights with rolling pins, they beat up possessed rabid reindeer, fake Santa calls Jason a very bad boy. Its like an unhinged fever dream and I love it. Are some lines cringe?? 1000% but I am willing to ignore that.

Also, Jason's narration about Kori being so strong followed by her going feral and saying she'll bite just means a lot to me.

[kittykatninja321]

The way fanon clings to the depiction of cartoonishly abusive Willis despite the fact that it was a shitty retcon in the first place and is also no longer really true because rebirth sorta re-retconned it. The idea that Jason has nothing but contempt for his father is something that was not true before new52 and is also not currently true. There’s elevendy million posts/fics/discussions about (rebirth) rhato 25 but somehow nobody seems to remember that part of the reason why Jason took out Cobblepot the way that he did was because he was spiraling over Willis and wanted revenge for his ‘death’. Like remember when new52 made Rose Wilson fully white for a little bit? Me neither we should all forget everything that happened in that era <3

[creetchure]

I’m new here. What’s wrong with JayRoy. Aren’t they buddies? Genuine question.

Hi hello! Preliminary disclaimer: you ship what you want, its none of my business. Also i dont know how new you are so if it feels like im overexplaining im sorry

Now im gonna get into the reason why most longterm comic book fans who dont stick to the batfamily usually dislike ja/roy.

First, lets look at why this ship exists at all. It stems from the comic book red hood and the outlaws (2011), where Jason, Roy, and Kory are all on a team together. Ignoring the fact that a lot of the New52 has been retconned since, though Roy and Jason being friends was still canon as of red hood and the outlaws 2016, that lineup originally didnt make a lot of sense. Pre-crisis (before the first DC reboot in 1985), Jason was a 12/13 at the time where the Titans were all somewhere between 18 and 20. He did hang out with them a few times, but wasnt in any way childhood friends with Roy or any of them. Very much a kid hanginh out with his big brothers friends. Post-crisis, that was almost entirely retconned, making roy and jasons interractions very minimal before rhato2011, where theyre suddenly bffs.

Second, it kind of does a huge disservice to Roys character. Bear in mind that while ive read a lot of Roy comics, it was a while back, so some details might get lost in the sauce. Mostly, he would not fucking do that lmao. The pillars in his life have always been Donna Troy, Dick Grayson, and Lian Harper, his daughter. Before n52, he just. Didnt give much of a shit about Jason Todd. They also retconned his history of addiction to have something to do with Jasons death, which, in my opinion, takes away from the real reason it happened, and his relationship with Ollie. On top of that, a petty nitpick I have is that theres no way in hell Roy would get close to someone who threatened his sister at gunpoint.

In RHATO, it honestly kind of feels like Roys just there to be Jasons best friend. (Side note: jason DOES have a childhood best friend. Outlaw Eddie Bloomberg,,,,,,my missed opportunity,,,,,)

In conclusion, Ja/roy isnt like. A problematic ship. If you want to read about it, good for you. Its just kind of very obviously written by people who dont care about Roy as a character, and potentially only skimmed the wiki article to get the gist of his story.

[blackbatcass]

hii! it’s me (fanon jason ask) 😭

thanks for answering my question, no matter how stupid it may have been haha-

what do you think about dc giving dick’s friends/supporing cast/other complicated stuff to jason? like roy, kori,rose, even babs. idrk how to put it in words but i think they both deserve better.

anyways, thanks for answering my stupid question, once again! :D have a nice dayy!

hey anon! no problem, answering that was a cathartic delight. as for your question.. I mean I think we’ve kind of beat it to death in this side of the fandom but short answer is it’s the worst. like it sucks so absolutely goddamn bad. lobdell is my mortal enemy forever and ever. rhato as well as pretty much everything jason-related since new52 just makes 0 sense for anyone involved, it has done irreparable damage especially to kory and roy, and it just boggles the mind. like it’s so ridiculous it doesn’t even bear thinking about🤦‍♀️

[rednriddn]

So I had this idea awhile ago but I didn't post it. I've only read a few comics (RHATO s1 & s2 (right up until we learn Roy is dead from bruce) And some of Jason's early Redhood days. And a nice amount of Damian stuff (until the titans Slade Wally thing.) So most of my knowledge is from Tumblr & AO3.

So I've heard about rebirth "everything happened" and I had my own idea (I don't think this is what actually happened in comics but I could be wrong)

So instead of "every happened" it's more like everything happened but some of it's gone but people think everything they don't remember was wiped. Until it starts comming back.

Maybe Wally was in a different dimension like cannon. Came back and everything was gone. Everything was different. The timeline was all messed up. Things that happened 20 years ago to him happened 10 years to everyone else if they happened at all.

He mourns his kids and wife. Maybe takes some time off. Everyone else is learning about their past that are gone (maybe they get magic memories like cannon maybe they just learn from Wally)

Maybe Wally goes on a mission to fix things. And starts finding out that he can't. That the things that are gone are gone. The only thing that was wiped that can come back is memories. He fights that. Keeps trying. New or old Big Bads.

Others are mourning too. Either the things they don't remember or the things they do but can't get back. They can't believe they forgot.

Then things. People start showing up. Heroes that "weren't in this timeline" young or old with a new backstory. Or maybe just a slight (major) change of other heroes not part of their story in this timeline.

They realize that while they knew the timeline was messed up. Things starting and ending at the wrong times. It was still happening. The old timeline unraveling.

Now my favorite part. It could be a standalone or part of a long story.

Lian in Gotham. ((I think I saw something before. A comic from preNew52 universe that was written right before 52 or at the time it was beginning. Roy fought a Demon in Gotham and brought Lian back))

So right as that's happening the "Cosmic Event" timey wimey F'd up all over the place.

Lian is in Gotham with little to no memories. 5 years old. With nobody she knows in sight.

((Many possibilities right there. I'd like a lot of fanfics with same-to-similar circumstances. Maybe not the entire buildup. Just the amount of ideas that could come from Lian revived but everything went wrong.

(Jason could find her. She could find Jason. She could find any Bat. She could head to New York or Star City. She could stay in Gotham until everyone gets their memories back)))

((I wish I had the patience to read more comics. There's just so many. If I ever get on another reading comics kick I think I'll try Roy right after he gets Lian. Or Titans/Young Justice 1980s onward.))

So back to it.

Once Lian is found in this timeline (she'd be 5-9 debating or fanfic timeline. Start of new52 she's 5. Wally comes back in Titans 7or8.) Wally searches for Linda.

Personally I prefer Irey&Jai still being young. Linda was suddenly a single mom to two babies. She doesn't remember who the father is. She just knows she loves her babies. They were wanted.

But now they are 3 or 4 years old. They have powers. Whenever they started showing their powers she wondered it she had a one night stand with the Flash. How do you even bring that up. Wasn't there a few Speedster villains. (Wasn't there a time in comics where a lot of people suddenly got super speed)

Just everything unraveling. How do they even find out what when where how why.

[roseworth]

i never read the n52 rhato run, my reason for hating scott lobdell was when he introduced the concept of jason hallucinating his younger self, which me (idiot) thought was going to be the start of some fun cool character exploration which instead came to the conclusion that "robin jason deserved to die (???) because he didnt trust people (literally not true, he trusted his mom too much)" i'd love to hear what he fucked up about jason in the n52 run

i haven’t read the new52 run either ghshfjshdsj i’ve read the rebirth one but i don’t think i could emotionally make it through the new52 run knowing what he did to roy and kory and everything around them

and YEAH i really like the idea of jason hallucinating his former self and from what i remember some of it was fine?? but for the most part he didn’t do as much as he could’ve with it

maybe my fond memories of that part were because of dexter soys art bc now when i’m trying to remember the panels i can’t remember what it said fhsjfhsjdhs

[comphetkoncass]

very very curious about donnakory rhato

oh this one! i havent touched it in almost a year, but heres the premise in the doc: "Donna’s absent for a lot of new52 so we’re doing a rewrite. We’re also doing a mashup of the world prior to new52 and new52. Because this is a goddamn rhato fixit."

and here are the first few paragraphs! <3

Kory does not feel like herself. 

She tells herself she doesn’t recognize the dark-haired woman who comes close and holds her in her arms and doesn’t let go first. They hug for a long time, until Kory remembers that she isn’t supposed to know this woman who holds her like she’s the world, the entire galaxy. 

“I missed you, too,” the woman says. 

Kory breathes in, out. She does not want a blank history with this woman who cares. She does not want to be without seven years of kinship. 

Still, she does not remember. 

“I don’t remember you,” Kory says, because she thinks she’s always been honest. 

The woman goes still in her arms. She pulls back, concern and empathy and love, so much love, in those ice blue eyes. 

“Donna,” she says. “Donna Troy.” 

It’s a name that makes Kory’s heart ache in the best and worst ways. 

She crumbles in a way she didn’t, with Roy, who also knew her. Roy, who wanted to sleep with her. Who did sleep with her. 

“Were we lovers?” Kory asks, because she doesn’t know much, but she knows that she can’t get attached again. And loves from before might destroy her from her heart inside out. 

“Better,” Donna says, and cups Kory’s cheek. “You were my best friend.”