#new52 rhato

[s-c-g-s-c-g]

Now that I'm back into DC and reading comics again I've been thinking a bit about why I left. I've been in many fandoms over the years and as far as I can tell, DC is the only one where my departure felt very sudden and out of the blue. Anyways, I remembered today.

I read the first issue of Red Hood and the Outlaws (2011).

That's the thing that killed it. That issue.

Little teenager me, years-long devourer of comics both good and terrible, read that one issue and the interest withered away like it was never there in the first place. It's been so long I thought it was gone for good.

[mangoisms]

not a sentence i was expecting to read tonight but ok

[disniq]

Hi so uhhhh, not actually making any sort of relevant point about anything but I saw you guesstimating Jason's kill count and I have to justify the fact that I went panel by panel to hand count his kills SOMEHOW so like have the data please!!

Skipping dear Filipe's moldering corpse due to uncertainty, we start with Lost Days

Human Trafficking Truck Driver Ian, Egon, Steel Beam mercenary crew estimated at least five strong, three more of his teachers, eleven nameless russian mobsters, a cousin and a running buddy of a russian mobster: 23 people

Under the Red Hood

Eight heads in a duffel bag, four thugs with Freeze (Freezy boy does not die), Two confirmed on panel delivery man kills (Five-ten more suspected but we won't count em), Ten goons in the doorway when he swings the minigun on them as he and Onyx retreat, five more goons, Rocket launcher blast kills "most" of a security team with at least three members left alive so we'll call that three kills (far more deaths are implied), shoots a guy holding a lit molotov catching him on fire, then kills Captain Nazi (yay), forces Black Mask to kill six of his men, forces Some Guy to fight Black Mask to the death for him, and finally dear old Black Mask's PA is thrown through a window (his cycling class will miss him dearly): 42 people

(So, yeah, your ballpark of about a hundred give or take sounds about right, he's only got ~65 on panel, confirmed notches on his knife by the end of UtRH, and the implications seem to imply between 20 and 75 kills off screen)

That Time He Kidnapped Mia

Short and sweet, he only ices a pack of "brain donors": 5 people

Brothers in Blood

Two human traffickers, three more drug runner goons, two more goons later on: 7 people

Red Haired Foolishness Phase part one

Starting the running with two cops, lightning bug assassin, six mobstery big wigs, a guy, Flamingo: 11 people

Red Haired Foolishness Phase part two

Littleman Beaver's brother and his brother's fourteen goons, fifteen of his fellow inmates, then the grand poisoning of eighty-two people (well he poisoned more but we only get eighty-two confirmed as dead): 112 people

This is not even slightly a complete list, so consider this final number a lowball of:

Two Hundred people even!

as Jason's body count... at least pre-new52, don't ask me what's going on over there in modern canon, idk

Hope this was entertaining/useful to you in some way!

Best wishes -redhoodinternaldialectical

This is an amazing reference, thank you so much for sharing!!

I can fill most of the later stuff, because there's tragically little of it.

Nu52's attempt at giving Jason a concrete kill count was laughably low;

Red Hood and the Outlaws (2011) #21

Rebirth was mostly non-lethal, with the notable exception of the gang Jason uses to establish his new edgy loner lifestyle after the famous rhato 25 beatdown from Bruce.

RHATOs (2016) #26

I count 11 of them, and I think it's safe to say they're all dead.

But then he teams up with Batwoman, and then Bunker, and then becomes a teacher at Lex Luthor's school for potential supervillains so it sort of tapers off again.

And then... there's the piece of shit dad he killed in Cheer in 2021.

Batman: Urban Legends (2021) #1

As far as I'm aware, that's the last time he killed in main continuity.

When will my son return from the war

[kara-zor-els]

Reading new52 rhato should count as a form of torture

[dyslexicandakeyboard]

Today's controversial take is that Bruce's character isn't assassinated all that much by writers, fans just don't like him as a fully fledged character with flaws in his own right.

Like I know Gotham War just happened but the last time (in my memory) he ever was physically abusive with the kids was Forever Evil/That-One-Panel-Where-Bruce-punched-Dick-New52 and UTRH/RHATO 25. It's been a good 10ish years since he hit Dick and a good 18 to 9 years since any of Bruce's and Jason's fights.

And no, Bruce hitting Tim doesn't count, that was explained.

That is a good couple of years between each event.

Bruce is a flawed individual, he's a flawed parent. Bruce has hurt his kids, physically and emotionally. Doesn't mean his abusive. I'm not saying Bruce never hit his kids, what I'm saying that it was more complex than that.

All this crying about how editorial doesn't want Bruce to be a good dad but that fandom does is petty bullshit. If you pick up a random issue Bruce ain't beating his kids or emotionally abusing his kids. You just don't read and expect the Batfamily to have Hallmark family dynamics.

No one wants to read the actual arc but they'll read out of context panels which dumb down the conflict.

Bruce hitting Dick during Bruce Wayne: Murderer was not abuse, they were fighting. Bruce hitting Dick during the Court of Owls was abuse. Bruce hitting Dick during Nightwing 30 wasn't abuse. Bruce hitting Dick during New Titans 55 was abuse. Just two times.

Bruce fighting Jason during UTRH wasn't abuse, it was self-defence. Bruce fighting Jason during RHATO wasn't abuse, they were fighting.

Bruce is consistently portrayed as a good but flawed parent. Even after post-crisis, even after Death in the Family, you will find good moments of Bruce being fatherly.

Such as (mind my shitty quality phone pics)

Knightfall

Robin

Batgirl

Batman: Fugitive/Batman: Murderer

Grayson

War Games (Funny I know)

obi there many more examples but I haven't read all comics nor do I have them on hand (Scrolling though pages is veery exhausting. Hashtag firstworldproblems)

[evasive-anon]

Just a reminder that the New52 really did give us the best Jason xmas special with RHATO Annual #2. This story had every thing: little bby outlaws being violent cutie pies, they get grounded by batman. they escape on the t-rex in the batcave and steal santa's sleigh, they find a war in the north pole, Mrs. Claus is a giant gingerbread woman who fights with rolling pins, they beat up possessed rabid reindeer, fake Santa calls Jason a very bad boy. Its like an unhinged fever dream and I love it. Are some lines cringe?? 1000% but I am willing to ignore that.

Also, Jason's narration about Kori being so strong followed by her going feral and saying she'll bite just means a lot to me.

[kittykatninja321]

The way fanon clings to the depiction of cartoonishly abusive Willis despite the fact that it was a shitty retcon in the first place and is also no longer really true because rebirth sorta re-retconned it. The idea that Jason has nothing but contempt for his father is something that was not true before new52 and is also not currently true. There’s elevendy million posts/fics/discussions about (rebirth) rhato 25 but somehow nobody seems to remember that part of the reason why Jason took out Cobblepot the way that he did was because he was spiraling over Willis and wanted revenge for his ‘death’. Like remember when new52 made Rose Wilson fully white for a little bit? Me neither we should all forget everything that happened in that era <3

[comphetkoncass]

kory full on had a mental breakdown for a few years in new52 but if there's anyone who honestly had the trauma to justify a full on breakdown and ego death before getting her shit back together it's kory. anyways in my head rhato and her solo book are canon but only in the sense that we watched koriand'r have a full on breakdown for like 6 months where she had amnesia or at least "amnesia", became an extremely hypersexual ice princess, forgave her sister for like the 5th time, did space crimes, did earth crimes, retired from earth and space crimes to have adventures on an island where she didn't know anyone and went double amnesia with full personality loss to try to properly restart on earth, finally realized that this wasnt actually helping, broke down even further off camera, then went back to the titans where she finally got her shit together. maybe too much because she became a bit of a den mother during the new52 run of teen titans and titans academy. but the structure and responsibility helped her and now we're soooo back.

[creetchure]

I’m new here. What’s wrong with JayRoy. Aren’t they buddies? Genuine question.

Hi hello! Preliminary disclaimer: you ship what you want, its none of my business. Also i dont know how new you are so if it feels like im overexplaining im sorry

Now im gonna get into the reason why most longterm comic book fans who dont stick to the batfamily usually dislike ja/roy.

First, lets look at why this ship exists at all. It stems from the comic book red hood and the outlaws (2011), where Jason, Roy, and Kory are all on a team together. Ignoring the fact that a lot of the New52 has been retconned since, though Roy and Jason being friends was still canon as of red hood and the outlaws 2016, that lineup originally didnt make a lot of sense. Pre-crisis (before the first DC reboot in 1985), Jason was a 12/13 at the time where the Titans were all somewhere between 18 and 20. He did hang out with them a few times, but wasnt in any way childhood friends with Roy or any of them. Very much a kid hanginh out with his big brothers friends. Post-crisis, that was almost entirely retconned, making roy and jasons interractions very minimal before rhato2011, where theyre suddenly bffs.

Second, it kind of does a huge disservice to Roys character. Bear in mind that while ive read a lot of Roy comics, it was a while back, so some details might get lost in the sauce. Mostly, he would not fucking do that lmao. The pillars in his life have always been Donna Troy, Dick Grayson, and Lian Harper, his daughter. Before n52, he just. Didnt give much of a shit about Jason Todd. They also retconned his history of addiction to have something to do with Jasons death, which, in my opinion, takes away from the real reason it happened, and his relationship with Ollie. On top of that, a petty nitpick I have is that theres no way in hell Roy would get close to someone who threatened his sister at gunpoint.

In RHATO, it honestly kind of feels like Roys just there to be Jasons best friend. (Side note: jason DOES have a childhood best friend. Outlaw Eddie Bloomberg,,,,,,my missed opportunity,,,,,)

In conclusion, Ja/roy isnt like. A problematic ship. If you want to read about it, good for you. Its just kind of very obviously written by people who dont care about Roy as a character, and potentially only skimmed the wiki article to get the gist of his story.

[azol-otl]

for the au ask game: after his resurrection, jason sonehow became immortal. every time he dies, he returns to life shortly after. all of his "fake deaths" (utrh ending, battle for the cowl fight with dick, some new52 and rebirth stuff probably, etc.) are actually real deaths.

For the Ask Game

I reblog the ask game to get fluff and I keep getting angst D': Anyway,Jason is suicidal, that's canon. Like you can argue that he was suicidal since his later time as Robin, but it's just straight up text after he comes back to life. So him being immortal...

He takes it badly. Actually he takes it really badly. Like he's having a breakdown and wouldn't be surprised if he had several suicide attempts between the end of Under the Hood and Brothers in Blood. Like he was already not doing so hot mentally, but this is a suicidal man who cannot die and he very much does not care about his life. He's in a full manic episode time.

People don't realize he's suicidal usually. Because he annoys the shit out of them. He's manic and not the usual picture of suicidal. And like...the bats aren't good with suicidal people. Dick's probably the best...but he mostly helps people from a suicide hotline. He's helping people who know something is up and don't want to go through with it, or at least still want to fight for life. And Tim...well there was a comic where his tactic to stopping a suicidal person from committing suicide was to dare them to do it. Like...yikes my dude. He's not someone they think they need to help...and even then they see him stay alive after every time so he's fine obviously.

Jason has thoughts about being left to die in an explosion by both Bruce UtH) and Dick (BiB). His telegram to Dick was in between suicide attempts.

The first time since coming back to life where he isn't actively suicidal is actually with Roy and Kori. He didn't die in the submarine and having some actual kindness when Kori finds his body washing up onto her beach was enough for him even if he wasn't fully...not suicidal.

He was doing better about wanting to live, going from active to passively suicidal. His time after rhato Rebirth (Cheer, Task Force Z, Gotham War, this current arc) have pushed him back to actively suicidal because maybe one day it'll stick and if not he's getting shit done.

Nobody thinks he's been dying all this time. If they did...they'd be more uncomfortable with what happened or their own actions but not about what's happening to Jason. Secondary priority yet again.

I don't think this one would have a concrete end my friends. Probably just him coming back to life and thinking "Next time, maybe next time."

[blackbatcass]

hii! it’s me (fanon jason ask) 😭

thanks for answering my question, no matter how stupid it may have been haha-

what do you think about dc giving dick’s friends/supporing cast/other complicated stuff to jason? like roy, kori,rose, even babs. idrk how to put it in words but i think they both deserve better.

anyways, thanks for answering my stupid question, once again! :D have a nice dayy!

hey anon! no problem, answering that was a cathartic delight. as for your question.. I mean I think we’ve kind of beat it to death in this side of the fandom but short answer is it’s the worst. like it sucks so absolutely goddamn bad. lobdell is my mortal enemy forever and ever. rhato as well as pretty much everything jason-related since new52 just makes 0 sense for anyone involved, it has done irreparable damage especially to kory and roy, and it just boggles the mind. like it’s so ridiculous it doesn’t even bear thinking about🤦‍♀️

[redtwomuch]

So I had this idea awhile ago but I didn't post it. I've only read a few comics (RHATO s1 & s2 (right up until we learn Roy is dead from bruce) And some of Jason's early Redhood days. And a nice amount of Damian stuff (until the titans Slade Wally thing.) So most of my knowledge is from Tumblr & AO3.

So I've heard about rebirth "everything happened" and I had my own idea (I don't think this is what actually happened in comics but I could be wrong)

So instead of "every happened" it's more like everything happened but some of it's gone but people think everything they don't remember was wiped. Until it starts comming back.

Maybe Wally was in a different dimension like cannon. Came back and everything was gone. Everything was different. The timeline was all messed up. Things that happened 20 years ago to him happened 10 years to everyone else if they happened at all.

He mourns his kids and wife. Maybe takes some time off. Everyone else is learning about their past that are gone (maybe they get magic memories like cannon maybe they just learn from Wally)

Maybe Wally goes on a mission to fix things. And starts finding out that he can't. That the things that are gone are gone. The only thing that was wiped that can come back is memories. He fights that. Keeps trying. New or old Big Bads.

Others are mourning too. Either the things they don't remember or the things they do but can't get back. They can't believe they forgot.

Then things. People start showing up. Heroes that "weren't in this timeline" young or old with a new backstory. Or maybe just a slight (major) change of other heroes not part of their story in this timeline.

They realize that while they knew the timeline was messed up. Things starting and ending at the wrong times. It was still happening. The old timeline unraveling.

Now my favorite part. It could be a standalone or part of a long story.

Lian in Gotham. ((I think I saw something before. A comic from preNew52 universe that was written right before 52 or at the time it was beginning. Roy fought a Demon in Gotham and brought Lian back))

So right as that's happening the "Cosmic Event" timey wimey F'd up all over the place.

Lian is in Gotham with little to no memories. 5 years old. With nobody she knows in sight.

((Many possibilities right there. I'd like a lot of fanfics with same-to-similar circumstances. Maybe not the entire buildup. Just the amount of ideas that could come from Lian revived but everything went wrong.

(Jason could find her. She could find Jason. She could find any Bat. She could head to New York or Star City. She could stay in Gotham until everyone gets their memories back)))

((I wish I had the patience to read more comics. There's just so many. If I ever get on another reading comics kick I think I'll try Roy right after he gets Lian. Or Titans/Young Justice 1980s onward.))

So back to it.

Once Lian is found in this timeline (she'd be 5-9 debating or fanfic timeline. Start of new52 she's 5. Wally comes back in Titans 7or8.) Wally searches for Linda.

Personally I prefer Irey&Jai still being young. Linda was suddenly a single mom to two babies. She doesn't remember who the father is. She just knows she loves her babies. They were wanted.

But now they are 3 or 4 years old. They have powers. Whenever they started showing their powers she wondered it she had a one night stand with the Flash. How do you even bring that up. Wasn't there a few Speedster villains. (Wasn't there a time in comics where a lot of people suddenly got super speed)

Just everything unraveling. How do they even find out what when where how why.

[kara-zor-els]

Jason ships (jayrose, jayroy, jaytemis and jaysteph) for the ship ask meme?

I'm a "Jason Todd is Ace" truther.... that being said:

Jayrose: I feel like this ship came out of nowhere tbh. I could see it, but they just never really had any build up? Idk if I'm missing something since I dropped RHATO Rebirth on issue 12 or so but I genuinely have no idea when or how they ended up hooking up

Jayroy: I don't know who the guy Jason used to be forced to hang out with in the new52 was but not only was he not Roy Harper, he was also the most annoying man alive. Besides Jason (also extremely OOC) treated him like shit. Both characters deserve better.

Jaytemis: this feels so... comphet? I don't hate it but I just can't see them in a relationship. They should be besties tho.

Jaysteph: for some unknown reason this compels me just a tiny bit. Mainly in the AU I have in my head where they met in Africa post War Games/pre UTRH. That being said, I wouldn't want them to be canon.

[redjaybathood]

1, 5, 7, 8, 4, 11 and 15 for the problematique ships??

oh wow, that's a lot! thank you!

1) what is your favorite “problematic” ship?

Brujay. It is very interesting to get their canon mutual weirdness - their relationship is a mess, it's not healthy - and bring it up to 11. Both because it's like magnifying what's already there, to make it easier to drive things home: none of them is okay and they should, in fact, stay away from each other despite the fact it wouldn't be that hard not just to reconcile but also to respect each other and be deserving of said respect.

It's also curious to me that a lot of Bruce's fan ships are actually... have similar vibes to brujay, minus the "I was his father for 3 years or so" factor. BatCat - I can write an essay about similarities between Jason and Catwoman, and Jason actually feels jealous and replaced by her, at some point in his Robin era. BruTalia, BruHarvey, GhostBat. Especially the GhostBat. It's literally brujay without the incest. Whereas Jason's ships are the opposite. Like, Sladejay comes close but no cigar.

5) a ship you like but can’t find content for because it’s a fanpol fave?

I am like Jaytemis but not enough to go looking. I actually blocked a lot of jaytemis fans because they were dicks in tag. and on some discord server, don't remember details.

7) what kind of “problematic” tropes you like to put your ships through?

Sex while willingly or unwillingly mentally impaired, such as by alcohol (taken willingly), drugs (taken unwillingly), interdimensional demon possession, and having heat while also having a traumatic brain injury. There's also having sex not because you want but for reasons. Proving a point. Trying to manipulate. Things like that.

I think I have about... two fics where a character has sex because they want to have sex, and it ends badly in the second one.

Basically the moral of my stories:

In one of them, it was quite literal.

8) a character you think did nothing wrong but fandom demonizes?

Damian, easy. I find it irritating especially when he's used as Tim's foil. The little guy was brainwashed, and he still is dealing with the consequences of this trauma and his upbringing overall. It takes years to unpack it.

Talia - just leave her alone. "She traumatized Damian" - the authors did that. She was just a tool, and she was character-assassinated in the process. I mean, it is a bit wrong of her to be, like, in charge of an international murder organization but, we all know what the grip fandom has with her is not about that.

4) a ship you think is fairly healthy and unproblematic but the fandom has decided to hate?

JayRoy and joyfire holy shit. I know it stems, in part, from the hatred to New52 overall and Lobdell's RHatO in particular, and I hear them even if I don't care that much (I see jayroy potential even before New52, and after). But "stealing friends from Dick", "age difference", what the fuck else there was - just no. As long as Jason deals with his commitment issues and self-hatred, this is the healthiest relationship he has ever had with the exception of Artemis and Bizarro.

11) is there a fandom that ever made you think “how are there antis in this fandom, why are they even into this”?

Hannibal, Good Omens, and Sandman, to name a few. Curious that they think that if the creator has public acknowledgment it means that suddenly he's not proship anymore. Or if he is, that's okay, we won't be principled and leave/not join the fandom but rather go bully the proshippers who do not have money and fame.

Oh, and Game of Thrones/House of Dragons - while I don't know if Martin is proship, the subject matter he deals with is no more taboo than what fandom does. "I watch dragon incest show for the dragons, y'all weird" no it's you who's weird, you literally watching a show about incest and complaining about incest. "it's not glorified in canon" That's cute, you sure it is in fics? you read them? you read incest fics? Like, come on.

15) something cool about the last thing you watched/read/listened to!

Last thing I listened to was this youtube comics podcast: Grandpas reading comics (eng subs are only auto-translated so bear with it)

It's about Ukrainian comics, The Will, and as a person who has two issues of this comic book and no idea of what's going on, I was glad to find out this video exist. I did not finish watching it yet tho - so I still have no idea what's going on - I will keep you guys posted. After I buy the issue 3, maybe.

[roseworth]

What is it with the three "bad" Robins and their lack of friends :( they deserve to have a lot of friends and connection with other heroes outside of Gotham. Like don't you think it makes sense for them to have a lot of friends, Steph with her personality and Jason + Damian with the lack of them during their childhood. It makes sense but dc >:(

oh my god youre gonna regret sending me this because i have so much to say

first of all youre literally so right :( its so upsetting that they dont get to have meaningful connections to other people because they've all been heroes for a long time so its fucked up that they dont get friends!!

like with jason he honestly just. didnt have enough time to make friends when he was robin :( he had eddie because eddie was like the only other sidekick at the time that wasnt a titan. like if jason lived he would've probably been friends with young justice (and honestly. just the thought of that feels wrong fhksajfhafk the idea of jason being friends with yj just does not sit right with me) but there just. weren't enough other heroes his age at the time for him to be friends with anyone as robin :( THEN when he came back obv he didnt have friends until rhato but even then???? they put him with roy and kory who both had to be written out of character just for it to make sense for him to be friends with them. so he was really fucked over in that regard (but not as much as roy and kory were fucked over) then he was friends with bizarro and artemis and??? obv bizarro wasnt going to exist much outside of rhato, and as an amazon artemis isnt really going to be hanging out with jason or anything outside of one of his books. so he just??? doesnt get to have friends that make sense and he doesnt form meaningful friendships since the people hes been paired with dont have lasting power in their relationships with him :(

STEPH however. it literally makes me so sad that she doesnt have friends because!!!! she had SO many friends in batgirl 2009 !!! she was constantly teaming up with other people and working with others and doing so many good things :( the last issue has a team up with her, supergirl, miss martian, bombshell, and stargirl and!!! i think about that team up all the time :( :( not to mention someone told me one time that the writer planned a team up with steph kara and mia but they weren't able to do it because the universe reset >:( steph had so many friends and then she was wiped out of existence after the new52 :(!!!!! she was besties with kara in that book and now they dont even know each other :( :( :( and she doesnt have any friends outside of gotham anymore because she didnt exist for years and hasn't been written well ever since :( im fine. its fine. im fine.

and damian. oh my god. its literally so fucked up. dont get me wrong i LOVE his friendship with jon but. oh my god. damian just does not have people other than jon :( he even had a teen titans team and then????? the writer made him super evil and had him like?? run a private prison in the tower or something??? idk i refuse to read the book. but he could have been FRIENDS with them!!! he WAS friends with them!!! but nooooooo damian is the evil robin! he cant have friends hes mean and no one likes him! /s :( he could have been friends with them if the writer was just normal about it. not to mention!!! even his friendship with jon is so sad bc they aged jon up and now their dynamic is just. completely different. so damian basically gets left behind by his friend that suddenly aged like 8 years without him and now its all completely different :(

i just. ugh. the only reason they dont have friends is because dc and the writers are basically working against them and not giving them people that they could actually form relationships with or theyre fucking them over and taking people away from them. it literally makes me so upset and i love these three so much i am going to kill someone about it

[forlornmelody]

Today's List of Nice Things:

Finally had the strength to finish Venemo. I was crying ugly tears. It's a beautiful series, but also very very sad. All the trigger warnings for this one, folks.

Went to two work functions for the night job. Had a lot of fun.

Got my cat's monthly flea meds in, even though I fucked up the first time.

Rose Wilson in Superboy is the only New52! Rose that matters. Aside from her appearance in RHATO. All her other appearances in that continuity are dead to me.