#my opinion doesn't matter

[baekk-hhyun]

crossing my fingers that i get a good finance job in the future cuz I really need my own place. i will pray and manifest and study cuz I can't keep living like this

[taradactyls]

So I could be totally wrong but, I believe it was sort of expected that men/gentlemen lose their virginity before marriage in regency times. But I also there’s some fandom ‘debate’ about whether or not Mr Darcy would’ve had sex before getting married. So I was just curious about what your canon for Mr Darcy in T3W is. Is he a virgin or not?

I knew someone would ask me this eventually, haha. I've actually had really long conversations with my beta reader about this trying to figure it out. It sounds like this might all be stuff that you’ve already seen discussed in the fandom, but I’ve never thought about it deeply before and so these are new thoughts to me.

I keep going over the historical real-world likelihood, the authorial intent, and the text itself but I’m still not 100%. I’ll explain my thinking and what I find most likely, but here’s your warning that it’s not a clear cut yes/no.

Because on one hand, at that time period it was most common for men in his position to have seen sex workers or have casual encounters/mistresses with women from their estates. Though I do absolutely believe not all men did that, no matter how much wealth and power they had. To go back some centuries, William the Conqueror seemed to be famously celibate (no hints of male lovers either according to the biography I read) until his marriage, and there's no evidence of affairs after it either. The best guesses as to why are that it was due to his religious devotion and the problems that had arisen from himself being a bastard and not wanting to recreate that situation. Concerns over religion and illegitimate children would certainly still have been applicable in the regency to men who thought that way. And in modern times I've seen sex workers say that when an 18/21yo is booked in by his family/friends to 'become a man' often they end up just talking and agree to lie about the encounter. After all, it’s not like every man wants casual sex, even if they aren’t demisexual or something in that vein. But, statistically speaking, the precedent of regency gentlemen would make Darcy not a virgin.

On the other hand, just how aware was Jane Austen, the very religious daughter of a country rector, of the commonness of this? There’s a huge difference between knowing affairs and sex workers existed (and no one who had seen a Georgian newspaper could be blind to this) and realising that the majority of wealthy men saw sex workers at some point even if they condemned the more public and profligate affairs. The literature for young ladies at the time paints extramarital sex - including the lust of men outside of marriage - as pretty universally bad and dangerous. This message is seen from 'Pamela' and other gothic fiction to non-fiction conduct books which Jane Austen would have encountered. Here's something I found in 'Letters to a Young Lady' by the reverend John Bennett which I found particularly interesting as it's in direct conversation with other opinions of the era:

"A reformed rake makes the best husband." Does he? It would be very extraordinary, if he should. Besides, are you very certain, that you have power to reform him? It is a matter, that requires some deliberation. This reformation, if it is to be accomplished, must take place before marriage. Then if ever, is the period of your power. But how will you be assured that he is reformed? If he appears so, is he not insidiously concealing his vices, to gain your affections? And when he knows, they are secured, may he not, gradually, throw off the mask, and be dissipated, as before? Profligacy of this kind is seldom eradicated. It resembles some cutaneous disorders, which appear to be healed, and yet are, continually, making themselves visible by fresh eruptions. A man, who has carried on a criminal intercourse with immoral women is not to be trusted, His opinion of all females is an insult to their delicacy. His attachment is to sex alone, under particular modifications.

The definition of a rake is more than a man who has seen a sex worker once, it's about appearance and general conduct too, but again, would that distinction be made to young ladies? Because they seem to simply be continuously taught 'lust when unmarried is bad and beware men who you know engage in extramarital sex.' As a side note, Jane Austen certainly knew at least something about the mechanics of sex: her letters and literature she read alludes to it, and she grew up around farm animals in the countryside which is an education in itself.

We can also see from this exert that the school of thought seems to be 'reformed rake' vs 'never a rake' in contention for the title of best husband, there's no debate over whether a current rake is unsuitable for a young lady. And, from Willoughby to Wickham to Crawford, I think we have a very clear idea of Jane Austen's ideas of how likely it is notably promiscuous men can reform. This does not preclude the possibility that her disparaging commentary around their lust is based more on over-indulgence or the class of women they seduce, but it's undoubtedly a condemnation of such men directly in line with the first part of what John Bennett says so it's no stretch to believe she saw merit in the follow-on conclusions of the second part as well. Whether she would view it with enough merit to consider celibacy the only respectable option for unmarried men is a bit unclearer.

I did consider that perhaps Jane Austen consciously treated this as a grey area where she couldn’t possibly know what young men did (the same reasoning is why we never see the men in the dining room after the ladies retire, etc) and so didn't hold an opinion on men's extramarital encounters with sex workers/lower-class women at all, but I think there actually are enough hints in her works that this isn’t the case. Though, unsurprisingly, given the delicacy of the subject, there’s no direct mention of sex workers or gentlemen having casual lovers from among the lower-classes in her texts.

That also prevents us from definitively knowing whether she thought extramarital sex was so common, and as unremarkable, as most gentlemen treated it. But we do see from her commentary around the consequences of Maria Bertram and Henry Crawford's elopement that she had criticism of the double standards men and women were held to when violating sexual virtue. Another indication that she perhaps expected good men to be capable of waiting until marriage in the way that she very clearly believed women should. At the very least, a man who often indulges in extramarital sex does not seem to be one who would be considered highly by Jane Austen.

She makes a point of saying, in regards to not liking his wife, that Mr Bennet “was not of a disposition to seek comfort for the disappointment which his own imprudence had brought on, in any of those pleasures which too often console the unfortunate for their folly or their vice.” This must include affairs, though cheating on a wife cannot be a 1:1 equivalent of single young men sleeping around before marriage. However, the latter is generally critically accepted to be one of the flaws that Darcy lays at Wickham’s door along with gambling when talking about their youth and his “vicious propensities" and "want of principle." Though this could be argued that it’s more the extent or publicity of it (but remembering that it couldn't be anything uncommon enough that it couldn't be hidden from Darcy Sr. or explained away) rather than the act itself, or maybe seductions instead of paying women offering those services. I also believe Persuasion mentioning Sunday travelling as proof of thoughtless/immoral activity supports the idea that Jane Austen might have been religious enough that she would never create a hero who had extramarital sex.

So, taken all together this would make Darcy potentially a virgin, or, since I couldn't find absolute evidence of her opinions, leave enough room that he isn’t but extramarital sex isn’t a regular (or perhaps recent) thing and he would never have had anything so established as a mistress.

I’ve also been wondering, if Darcy isn’t a virgin, who would he have slept with? I’ve been musing on arguments for and against each option for weeks at this point. No romantasy has ever made me think about a fictional man's sexual habits so much as the question of Darcy's sexual history. What is my life.

Sex workers are an obvious answer, and the visits wouldn’t have raised any eyebrows. Discretion was part of their job, it was a clean transaction with no further responsibilities towards them, and effective (and reusable, ew) condoms existed at this time so there was little risk of children and no ability to exactly determine the paternity even if there was an accident. It was a fairly ‘responsible’ choice if one wanted no strings attached. In opposition to this, syphilis was rampant at the time, and had been known to spread sexually for centuries. Sex workers were at greater risk of it than anyone else and so the more sensible and risk-averse someone is (and I think Mr Darcy would be careful) the less likely they would be to visit sex workers. Contracting something that was known as potentially deadly and capable of making a future wife infertile if it spread to her could make any intelligent and cautious man think twice.

Servants and tenants of the estate are another simple and common answer. Less risk of stds, it can be based on actual attraction more than money (though money might still change hands), and is a bit more intimate. But Wickham’s called wicked for something very similar, when he dallies (whether he only got to serious flirting, kissing, or sleeping with them I don’t think we can conclusively say) with the common women of Meryton: “his intrigues, all honoured with the title of seduction, had been extended into every tradesman's family.” And it isn't as though Wickham had any personal duty towards those people beyond the claims of basic dignity. Darcy, who is shown to have such respect and understanding for his responsibilities towards the people of his estate and duties of a landlord, would keenly feel if any of his actions were leading his servants/tenants astray and down immoral paths. Servants, especially, were considered directly under the protection of the family whose house they worked in. I think it's undoubtable that Mrs Reynolds (whose was responsible for the wellbeing - both physically and spiritually - of the female servants) would not think so well of Mr Darcy if he had experimented with maids in his youth. It would reflect badly on her if a family entrusted their daughter to her care and she 'lost her virtue' under her watch. Daughters/widows of others living on the estate not under the roof of Pemberley House are a little more likely, but still, if he did have an affair with any of them I can only think it possible when he was much younger and did not feel his duties quite so strongly. Of course lots of real men didn't care about any of this, but Darcy is so far from being depicted as careless about his duties that the narrative makes a point of how exceptional his quality of care was. Frankly, it's undeniable that none of Jane Austen's heroes were flippant about their responsibilities towards those under their protection. I cannot serious entertain an interpretation that makes Darcy not, at his current age, at least, cognizant of the contemporary problems inherent in sleeping with servants or others on his estate.

A servant in a friend’s house would remove some of that personal responsibility, but transfer it to instead be leading his friend’s servants astray and in a manner which he is less able to know about if a child did result. That latter remains a problem even if we move the setting to his college, so not particularly likely for his character as we know it… though it wouldn’t be unusual for someone to be more unthinking and reckless in their teenage years than they are at twenty-eight so I don’t think having sex then can be ruled out. Kissing I can much more easily believe, especially when at Oxford or Cambridge, but every scenario of sleeping with a lower-class woman has some compelling arguments against it especially the closer we get to the time of the novel.

Men did of course also have affairs with women of ranks similar to their own, though given Jane Austen’s well-known feelings towards men who ‘ruined’ the virtue of young ladies we can safely say that Darcy never slept with an unwed middle- or upper-class woman. Any decent man would have married them out of duty if it got so far; but if he was the sort to let it get so far, I think it impossible Jane Austen would consider him respectable. Widows are a possibility, but again, the respectable thing to do would be to marry them. Perhaps a poorer merchant’s widow would be low enough that marriage is off the table but high enough that the ‘leading astray’ aspect loses its master-servant responsibilities (though the male-female ‘protect the gentler sex’ aspect remains) but his social circle didn’t facilitate meeting many ladies like that. Plus, an affair with a woman in society would remove many layers of privacy and anonymity that sex-workers and lower-class lovers provided by simply being unremarkable to the world at large. It carries a far greater risk of scandal and a heavier sense of immorality in the terms of respecting a woman’s purity which classism prevented from applying so heavily to lower-class women.

I think it’s important to note here that something that removes the need to think about duties of landlords towards the lower-classes or gentlemen towards gentlewomen is having affairs with other men of a similar rank. But, aside from the risk of scandal and what could be called the irresponsibility of engaging in illegal acts, it’s almost certain that Jane Austen would never have supported this. For a devout author in this era the way I’m calculating likelihoods makes it not even a possibility. But if you want to write a different fanfiction (and perhaps something like a break-up could explain why Darcy doesn’t seem to have any closer friend than someone whom he must have only met two or so years ago despite being in society for years before that) it does have that advantage over affairs with women of equal- and lower-classes. I support alternate interpretations entirely – it just isn’t how I’m deciding things in this instance.

I keep coming back to the conclusion that, at the very least, Darcy hasn’t had sex recently and it was never a common occurrence. It wouldn’t surprise me if Jane Austen felt he hadn’t done it ever. Kissing, as we can see from all the parlour games at the time, wasn’t viewed as harshly, so I think he’s likely made out with someone before. But in almost every situation it does seem that the responsible and religious thing to do (which Jane Austen values so highly) is for it to never have progressed to sex. I also don’t think it conflicts with his canon characterisation to say that he wouldn’t regard sexual experience as a crucial element of his life thus far, and his personality isn’t driven to pursue pleasure for himself, so it’s entirely possible that he would never go out of his way to seek it. So, I’m inclined to think that the authorial and textual evidence is in favour of Darcy being a virgin even if the real-world contemporary standard is the opposite. (Though both leave enough room for exceptions that I’m not going to argue with anyone who feels differently; and even if you agree with all my points, you might simply weight authorial intent/textual evidence/contemporary likelihoods differently than I do and come to a different conclusion).

Remember that even if Darcy is a virgin this wouldn’t necessarily equate to lack of knowledge, only experience. There were plenty of books and artwork focused on sex, and Darcy, studious man that he is, would no doubt pay attention to what knowledge his friends/male relatives shared. Though some of it (Looking especially at you, 'Fanny Hill, Memoirs of a Woman of Pleasure') should NEVER be an example of appropriate practice for taking a woman's virginity. Darcy would almost certainly have been taught directly or learnt through exposure to other men talking to make sex good for a woman – it was a commonly held misconception (since Elizabethan England, I believe) that women had to orgasm to conceive. It would be in his interests as an empathetic husband, and head of a family, to know how to please his wife.

Basically, I’m convinced Darcy isn’t very experienced, if at all, and will be learning with Elizabeth. But he does have a lot of theoretical knowledge which he’s paid careful attention to and is eager to apply.

[hikarielizabethbloom]

I write this on the premise that my canon interpretation of relationships, characters, themes, etc., change based on what happens in the show.

So my canon interpretation ≠ fanon interpretation.

My interpretation of haladriel/saurondriel became a story of survival.

Galadriel is a survivor. Sauron didn't just represent her deeper desires; he represented her deepest fears. Fears that she had to face.

And I will never get over how terrified she looks here.

Is she scared because she felt something akin to love for him? Probably.

But she is mostly terrified of him. She knows what he is capable of, what his powers are. How he can manipulate the world around you to force you to do his bid. How he can twist your desires into something dark.

She is witnessing once again what loving Sauron does to others. First Celebrimbor, now Adar. He took their love (in the wide sense) and twisted it. Given the occasion, he would do the same to her. He wants to worship her as long as he can control her, like a puppet.

She is terrified.

[what-aboutno]

An analysis on c!Owen and his behaviour throughout the Outsiders SMP series!

Some disclaimers before I go into this. There will be spoilers up ahead! I would like to warn anyone reading that this post will mention some blacklisted members from the smp because their characters play a role in showing us about cOwen.

For convenience, all the members mentioned are the characters, not the actual ccs themself. Some of this might seem all over the place, but when the characters learn random parts of themselves at different points it's bound to happen.

Owen has changed a lot as the series has progressed and many find his personality to have changed entirely towards the end, however, this isn’t really the case. When we go over his character, we can see his core values have stuck with him throughout the series, so in this post, I will go over how exactly he has changed over time and his character in general.

To make it easier, I’m gonna split it into 3 parts. Early maze days, the introduction of clearing 2, and post memories.

During the early maze days Owen establishes his character very early on. Right from the beginning, Owen arrives with the demon Rasbi. They are notably one of the three pairs that come up, with most coming up the elevator alone. The first time we see him, Owen immediately takes up a role as a protector, asking if Rasbi knows how to fight in case there is danger up ahead.

In this first section, we can also see that he acts a lot more childish and naive. He’s very emotional and easily upset by his past. He can be seen jumping on rocks with Mohwee and the others and crying on his first night over his loss of memories. The overwhelmingness of the clearing gets to him. This isn’t to say he is some weak, stupid or soft character though. 

Owen may be naive in believing things should be played in certain ways according to his rules but there are many instances where we can see he’s not stupid. First episode he can immediately recognise what knife Oeca is holding “Hey that’s a throwing knife right? No that’s a dagger” 

After getting more settled in the maze he asks about the maze’s agriculture, he mentions everyone is unarmed despite fearing the dangers in the maze. He starts asking about protection, armour, shields and notably, “So this place is safe on the inside? It's safe to walk at night?” He’s already worried for everyone’s safety here, he knows the maze is dangerous so is there anywhere that’s safe? 

Very early on his past also becomes a very important aspect of his personality. He is probably one of the first to remember anything significant about his past. By episode 2 he is getting flashbacks about how to make a bow. But he makes a javelin first, noting “I think I was a hunter. No, I was an archer. I was a hunter. I was a soldier? I was good at this.” He then proceeds to aim the javelin at Oeca’s name, because at this point he can’t fully trust Ocea. He is very quick to violence, although he doesn't want Oeca dead, he certainly can’t trust in him. 

Another important note is that Mohwee is one of the people in the clearing he respected and saw as someone with the ability to act. Which is why we get this interaction where Mohwee calls out “Owen.” and Owen replies with “yes sir”. His past even without his memories is important and ingrained enough he still acts like this, and this only continues as we go through this section.

The first time they go in the maze as a group is when Apo arrives. This is a very important moment for Owen because their first trip in the maze solidifies his personality throughout this section and maybe even the series. Oeca is shot because Mohwee was careless and brought anyone in. When the group comes back, Owen asks Graecie, “How many entrances are there to this maze?” After finding out this is the only one that opens, he refuses to let anyone get hurt again and starts blocking it off.

Trust and promises are very important to Owen here too because it's one of the key reasons he blocks off the entrance. It’s not just Oeca getting hurt, it’s the fact he promised Graecie he wouldn't go in. “I broke my promise.” He also takes Apo’s word very seriously in the mine when he tells Owen he didn’t pull the lever. Also because of this he only trusts himself to go in the maze.

When the entrance is blocked off Owen is quick to violence and threatens people if they try to get past him. After finding the old battle axe he starts using it to threaten and intimidate people. “Anyone who goes past this (the gate) i will attack”

“Anyone else that will, I will just cut down” are some of the things he says. He punches Mohwee for trying to get past him. When Oeca comes back after Mohwee’s disappearance, Owen follows him with that battle axe trying to talk.

Owen then goes on to say “I’m not looking for violence” and “I'm not collecting weapons this was instinctual (points at bow)” he doesn't want people to think he’s dangerous and he knows people are scared of him.

Even if he seems aggressive he still wants to protect others. Owen goes back in the maze to look for Mohwee after he randomly disappears on their way back. “My job is to protect people and I will do that to the best of my abilities. At every possible stage”

When Mohwee disappears Owen takes a massive risk to stay in the maze overnight to see if the gates would open. “The only thing I remember about my life Graecie, is that I was raised to protect people. That's all I remember. And I know it was dumb and stupid to go in the maze but if it got us a step closer to finding Mohwee. I was willing to make that risk”

So we’ve established that Owen cares about the people in the clearing even if he doesn't trust all of them, he wants to protect them and he will do it no matter what. It's the purpose he has given himself in order to be useful.

He knows it doesn’t work how he wants it to. People are scared and wary of Owen’s protection. There are multiple instances where he tells his voices, “They don’t get it,” because he knows people don’t trust his methods. His method of control is disliked by a lot of people. 

Ori is one of the main characters to go against Owen. Owen hates this because not only does it risk the safety of others but it goes against his main purpose he gave himself. He takes this job very seriously. So when Ori goes in the maze it’s no wonder Owen becomes very violent.

“Ori I'm seriously sorry I will break your legs and I'm very close to it. Are you gonna make me. “

He doesn’t see himself to be super aggressive though “People think I'm being really aggressive when I talk like ‘oh hey if you come near me I'm gonna break your legs’ but I'm saying it in the most friendly way I can, you understand that right? I'm not trying to be aggressive with that”

“I'm saying like if you do step in here I will have to break your legs. In like a very gentle and I'm very sorry I hate to inconvenience you but I do have to break your legs.”

When Ori sneaks into the maze, Owen talks a lot about his purpose. Things like “Don't, I'll fail them. They'll kill me. My entire purpose here is to stay by this door and stop you from coming in.”

Owen hates to know he is failing the purpose he has given to himself “When I discovered I was a soldier that's what I set myself to (protecting others) but what do I have to show for myself? I have tried my hardest to protect these people. And get they look at me and tell me I'm a tyrant” “you're not in control, who are you to say what happens?”

He would do anything, even if it meant sacrificing himself. As shown before when Mohwee disappears but also as he protects the gate after the second lever gets pulled he says “I'm going to protect them if I die in the process so be it”  

Another note before this section ends is that it’s not just Ori who opposes Owen. Sillvia also talks about Owen’s method of leadership.

Sillvia about Owen: Owen I think you would be great. If not for the fact that you have a militaristic mindset. I don't want to see your leadership spiral into a place where Apo wants. Owen I fear you and I want you to know that. I actually fear you and I don't say that about many people. And ruling should not be through fear. You are a terrifying individual and to see you be in a position of power would be a slope we cannot afford or gamble slipping down. We've seen you tussle with Ori. I know you're a strong individual. You could lead us quite well but it's the risk that comes with your leadership that I am not willing to risk. 

The perception Owen has of himself differs from how he comes off. It becomes more of an issue later but we can already see this happen. 

So as clearing 2 is introduced this is what we know about Owen. He was a soldier once, he wanted to protect people in the clearing even if it meant sacrificing himself. He’s nice to others but his methods are still aggressive and violent, ready to hold a weapon to someone if needed and Owen cares a lot about trust. 

With the introduction of clearing 2 we can see how Owen changes and develops. He’s very cautious of clearing 2 members because for all he knows they could have led the creature that destroyed half their clearing in on purpose. 

Owen also faces betrayal from Apo. We know trust is something Owen values a lot. It’s mentioned in the early days, and it’s a major part of why he feels so strongly about Apo lying. During the scene where Owen faces Apo after finding he pulled the lever that killed the second clearing, his main issue with Apo isn’t the fact that he killed people. It was the fact he lied to him.

“You lied to me. Why did you do it? No no no I don't care about the lever. Apo why did you lie to me? You're my friend I trusted you. I stayed there. I held your back when oeca said it was you. I put my name on the line. Because we stood together in the mine and I asked you to swear to my face that you didn't do it. And you lied to me. Im meant to be your friend and you lied.” 

You can also see what Owen values in a person when they discuss Apo’s punishment and Owen says there's 3 main things he did

- went into maze without group consent

- pulled the lever

- he lied

Owen only adds on at the end that he left Squidney.

With all of this too we see Owen for the first time back away from the job he gave himself. He backs away from leadership, we start to see how tired Owen is from the stress of it all. His reasoning has to do with his trust being broken.

“What's the point they're all liars. This entire place is filled with filthy liars. Every single person. All I've ever done is tried to protect them”

“Forget it. I'm done. I'm don't helping people. No I'm not villain, I'm not a hero I'm nothing.

From now on there is no leader of the maze. They put me in charge. My word means nothing to them I'm done.”

“How am I meant to protect them when I try and stop them with physical force im made out to be some kind of monster. When I try to reason with them I'm made out to be soft.”  

Owen being viewed as soft has always been something he’s aware of. People tend to think because he’s kind that they can do whatever they want (sneak into the maze etc) and this perception Owen is a soft person develops. Even if he’s emotional and kind we’ve seen before in early maze days he is not soft. 

Owen tries to ignore all his problems but with it he grows more aggressive than before. His tone changes when he speaks about other people to his voices.

“To visit him would be to acknowledge he exists. And right now the last thing I want to do is consider the fact that this thing lives and breathes and eats and sleeps under my feet. The sooner he wastes away and fades into nothingness the better. I don't see a life going forward with him in it” - Owen about Apo

“The more I look around these stupid 4 walls the more I'm reminded that he that. That I trusted him.”

"he's everywhere. It's like a disease. Like it festers. The outside looks fine and you look just below the surface and it's rotting vile and it's him”

Apo: Just give me a chance.

Owen: why should I? So you can have another tick to the long list of times Owen has naively believed there is some good in the people that infests this clearing? Oeca, mohwee, Bekyamon, Magic, Graecie, Ori, you, liars. All of you.

I’m not just putting quotes here just for you to see oh trust is important! But more so for you to see that Owen changes when his trust has been broken or when he sees someone as a threat. Some of these things sound very similar to what Owen would say when he gets his memories back. Because to Owen trust and protection are 2 very important values. When that is broken he can’t be certain someone isn’t a threat. 

With this change Owen does become more aware he isn’t the most approachable person due to his methods. I do want to bring up this quote first though 

"Can I kill someone? Ive been thinking about this recently I say I'm a soldier. But I've never actually killed anyone. All my life in these 4 walls I've spoken about security and fighting and I can't remember a time I've actually taken someone's life. What if I have to. What if it comes to that I don't think I could stomach it either. I doesn't feel like me. It's not me it's not who I am. No I can't. I'll only attack this person if they do something first. And even then I'll just aim to incapacitate" - Owen about Ash

This is an interesting quote from Owen knowing his later actions but it’s not that out of character. If we look at every flashback he’s had so far we can see the life of a soldier is not one he’s always wanted.

Owen to his dad: What if I'm not ready to be your protector? No It's what you've always wanted! What if I wanted to do something else? What if I don't want to be a soldier what about me when do I get to look out for myself.

However he is always ready to attack if he needs to, if it comes to it he would do anything to protect someone. I think that means to kill even if Owen doesn’t think so at this point. 

His notebook btw

Another note about his behavior is that because of how others view him he almost dies from the creature’s venom. Ayngel even said before Owen is more angry. Other people even though it sounds jokingly say Owen gets grumpy when people disrupt him, leading to no one but Soup to check up on him when he gets stung.

When Bek comes back he doesn’t hesitate to do the things he did before. He does what he thinks is right and protects Magic by aiming a javelin at Bek. He says he’s not violent but anytime he feels like he’s in danger he pulls out a weapon. He did it when he was in Soup’s basement, he does it anytime he hears about someone potetially harming Rasbi, and he did it when he heard Oeca attacked Graecie. 

Owen in general is a fighter at heart. Even if he says he doesn’t want to kill anyone he is still ready to attack. 

Owen: this isn't you Ori. You fight. That's what you do.

Ori: what are you talking about?

Owen: you fight people. When you don't get your way you fight. You and I are the same

At the end of this section, the group decides not to go back in the maze. They had lost Squidney, Oeca, Mohwee, with the presumption that Red, Apo and Graecie were either dead or dying. Owen is tired of it all “Every Time I've tried to protect someone they've ended dead Kyle” he tries to hope but he is so tired. This tiredness also explains some things that happen when he gets his memory back. 

So to summarise before looking at Owen when he gets his memories back, this is what we know about Owen. He wants to protect his friends, he believes in trust a lot, he is both seen as more aggressive and angry these days and soft at the same time, he wants to be a good leader but other people don’t listen. Not much has changed since the early maze days, but it’s a more solid character now. 

When the reunion comes around Owen in the story has finally had a moment to think about everything that happened between him and Apo. His main regret in the series was how he treated him even if he broke his trust. 

Owen loves to contradict himself a lot but it’s a very human trait he has. He has complex feelings about Apo, and Beks and a lot of people. Yet he’ll still offer his protection to them. It’s because of this the ‘sudden’ shift in personality he has becomes very shocking to the audience. 

Since right before he sees Apo, Owen is very emotional here. Very similar to how he was in the early maze days. It’s out of his character to hope for something like seeing Apo because he knows it’s very unlikely he’ll see him again. However he gives himself this hope, one more chance. 

When Owen regains his memories the tone shift is obvious. He acts less emotional, he seems more mature. But we do need to consider this is someone who just had a lifetime of memories shoved back in his head and his core values are so strong that Owen doesn’t hesitate to act the way he used to. 

There’s lots of similarities to Owen here to the one we’ve known. Like his purpose. He sets one for himself immediately after arriving in the clearing. Even as he talks to Apo about his past he talks about his purpose

“I had a purpose once. I was useful, vital, adored. And suddenly everything changed. The world grew tired of blood shed. When all you're good for is violence, when you've been breed into a killing machine, a nation of peace will toss you aside like a spent torch”

There’s an obvious difference here right? The man we’ve watched in the maze who wanted to protect his friends just killed his best friend. This is definitely a different person right? Yes and no. Owen hasn’t changed that much, and I'll explain why after we go through some more things. But it’s important to note that this isn’t a completely new person, this isn’t something that is unexpected when we go through the information we already have about Owen. 

“I know what you are, you are everything wrong in the world has to offer. You are the amalgamation of all the gluttony and lust of humans with the evil and cunning of demons. You stand as a testament to everything vile. You are a disease on the face of this earth and I am it's curse” 

Apo: this isn't you you've changed 

Owen: incorrect, this is me. The man you manipulated and lied was nothing more than a puppet driven by the instinct to survive. 

Owen wants protection for his friends. He goes to extreme lengths to keep people safe, so when he remembers demons as this evil creature that will hurt people for their own gain he wasn’t going to stand around and do nothing right? 

Surprising or not this is very in character for Owen if we look at everything else we have from the series. To him, he is still doing his job, the one he’s done since day 1 in the clearing. Just now the threat isn’t just the maze and the occasional person, it’s demons. 

The way Owen became a demon hunter is essential too. He used to live in comfort, and based on past flashbacks he was training to be a soldier even if he didn’t fully enjoy it. His mother was a poet and his father was a general. He had grown up hearing all about how terrible demons are, and he didn’t understand until his village had been burned down.

One negative interaction with demons had put this deep hatred in his heart for them. Before his memories returned he was ready to forgive Apo, he knew he wasn’t as dangerous as he made him out to be. But when the sudden influx of memory comes, he has this past knowledge that Apo is a threat. 

Since Apo had hurt Owen before this only adds to it. Remember Owen really values trust. Apo has broken that trust in the past, so everything combined and letting go of the final restriction it’s no wonder he kills Apo. 

Despite this ‘massive personality change’ Owen has, when he returns to the clearing he still makes sure Magic is safe. He doesn't tell people about the lava rising so he wouldn’t cause panic. He still cares about these people. 

But Owen starts to view all the demons as a threat, every demon in the clearing has done something to suggest they could be dangerous. The reason Owen kills Guts is because they poisoned the food at the feast, which led to Magic being poisoned. He carries out this duty for protection

I think another thing people tend to forget about Owen is that he's been slowly breaking apart trying to fit what others want from him as seen in the last section. And it took a major toll on him. His outburst at Magic is one of the ways shown to us how much stress he’s been under. Perhaps even guilt he’s been feeling.

Magic: if you don't you're just putting everyone danger by not leading us… in there…

Owen: danger? You want to talk about putting others in danger? All of this coming from who exactly? The woman who's clearing burnt down under her leadership? The woman who lied about that previous position of leadership as she lacked the spine to correct her friend when she lied? The woman who was tied up and left for dead by that same friend? The woman who swore to protect a stranger only to them shot down in front of her? What the woman who stood still as her friend was ripped apart beside her? Oh yeah the magnitude of your failures Magic is deafening. Do you hear it? When you fall asleep at night, do you hear the screams of the dead who's blood stain your hands? How do you cope? When you find out be a good friend and let me know would you? Been looking for a way to shut them up. 

Owen does try to justify his actions to his voices even if they don’t listen. He knows people here aren’t good. He’s known this since clearing 2 was introduced, but with his memories back he feels like he has to carry on this duty by killing the threat. That’s the only way to keep people in the clearing safe right?

Owen to voices: have you stopped to think why I'm doing this? You seem so attached to these creatures, why? What good have they done? These people aren't good people. None of us good people. We're all in here for a reason. Just because you haven't taken your rose tinted glasses off to see that doesn't mean the rest of us haven't. 

Like before he won’t let anything stop him, even if it means hurting a few people. He doesn't hesitate to pull out a weapon when he hears Ayngel might know him. He can’t risk anything ruining his plans because he can’t afford to. He’s so tired. I think at this point anyone that was a major threat to him he would kill. 

Ayngel: I feel like I recognise you. You and your face from somewhere 

Owen: oh? (Starts to pull out knife from his bag)

Ayngel: I've been having this thought and it's got me thinking (Owen pulls out a knife in case)

Ayngel: actually, honestly forget it. It's all a dream and I'm overthinking

The only exception to his thinking is Rasbi. Rasbi actually hasn’t done anything wrong to him personally. She’s one of the few people that didn’t break his trust but he still kills her. Why? 

First off he doesn’t see her as the friend he wanted to protect but instead as something he protected only to kill in the end to fulfil his duty. Her sister is the reason why he ended up in the maze, so even without Rasbi directly harming Owen in any way it’s enough for Owen to kill her. I’m sure any small mistake or detail would have led Owen to killing any demon, because it only proves his thinking. 

Owen barely survives after Rasbi attacks him. So as Owen starts planning how to kill Krow he starts going a bit insane. His room is a mess, his mind is a mess and he can barely stand it anymore. We really start to see him fall apart here

Owen: this yolk is a burden is a burden I can't carry for much longer. I'm tired. I want to rest. But I took a pact, I made a promise. A glorious death is his for who his country falls and either I or they thing will have to die before I stop. 

Something that’s brought up when discussing the idea of ‘Maze Owen’ is the fact that we can see ‘glimpses’ of him in different interactions. For example when Owen and Krow go out into the maze and Owen spots Puddy he makes sure Puddy doesn’t die by keeping him away. Even if he’s aggressive in the scene the fandom interpretation is the care he has for Puddy as ‘Maze Owen’ slipped through. But It’s not out of character for him to still show care for people after his memories are returned based on everything we’ve seen.

Before ‘killing’ off Krow, Owen does say this “There's no escaping who you are” Which is really interesting since most characters he’s interacted with will tell him in the maze you can escape who you used to be. Owen knows for a fact no matter what he does in life now he will never have anything outside the maze. Because the world doesn’t need him anymore. He kills the demons as his final act of service to the world because he has nothing else to offer. 

When Krow finally comes back and Owen gets hit in the head he says to the rest of the group “I was protecting you all.” and “You don't know what they're like! You haven't seen the outside world.”

Looking at his final moments we see that everyone that Owen has cared about doesn’t trust him anymore. They don’t believe his protection was needed. He’s told that he will not get out of this cell. He’s left alone in the silence of the cell. Finally with the time to think. He starts experiencing multiple flashbacks and it makes it hard for him to think. 

We’ve seen in the past how Owen deals with multiple flashbacks. It gives him a headache or causes him pain in some cases. He also becomes really emotional afterwards. This follows the same case. Except he starts to realize some things.

Krow: I know those eyes. That glint of desperation for approval but knowing it's never coming. We're more similar than you let yourself believe you and I

(Flash back ‘i was an archer.?’ ‘i was a hunter?’ I was a soldier)

“I was a tool. Used.”

He knows he’s going to die soon and he starts to panic. The most important line he says is 

“So what now? This is it!? I deserve to die in battle. I killed them. It was what I. Its just what I was meant to do. I was trained. Should i have? I should have. I should have. I can't think inside my head, it's split in two” 

“So what voices? What was I before then huh? Was that me? Is that who people trust? People trust that one. Old Owen. Yes? It wasn't me. That wasn't me” flashback about Apo first coming up

“I can't think. I can't. They trusted him. They trusted him but not me? My head…”

After this he pleads with Magic to let him out. Owen claims “I hurt them, I hurt my friends. Rasbi, Guts. And Apo, Krow I don't know why I did those things” He pleads and cries. And he's desperate

Owen: “No magic it's me please.” 

Magic: “You kill people owen”

Owen: “It wasn't me I'm sorry. I just wanted to keep people safe.” 

Owen: “Magic please don't go… no… magic. You can't do this.”

Magic: “I can and I am” 

I think when we look at these final clips there’s a very important thing happening. Owen is separating himself from the past. He can’t understand why his friends don’t trust him. Even though nothing has changed. To him his eyes have been opened to the dangers of demons and he fulfilled his purpose. 

Why does this separation even happen? This is where we move to the final part of this long analysis and look at theories. There’s no way I can say for sure this is right or this is wrong. I can only tell you what I think based on the material already there. 

So before I go into this I have to emphasize I am not saying you can't refer to earlier Owen as maze Owen to explain Owen at different periods of his life. I'm saying when we really look at it, maze Owen doesn't exist since they're the same person. 

So what am I talking about? The concept of ‘maze’ Owen has been around for a long time. Even ccOwen talks about his character like that. The idea that just because Owen didn’t have his memories that he was some sweet, soft guy that needs to be babied is something that affects a lot on how you view him as a character. 

'maze' Owen doesn't actually exist because it's a way that Owen has come up with to justify to himself how he could have cared for demons without shattering his ideals. This is confused with Owen have distinct personalities and missing how he hasn't strayed from his ideals since the start with his idea of protecting everyone.

To separate that period of Owen's life in the maze ignores the fact that the characteristics you see in Owen post reunion are the same from before but taken to the extreme.

He's always been capable of ‘evil’'. It's the same as every other character in the series. We don't separate them like we do with Owen. Every character in the series is inherently morally gray, they do things out of desperation to survive. You can never say someone is 100% good or bad. 

Owen’s same mindset of 'I need to protect the people I care about because they're in danger now' carries through. After the reunion in his head demons are no longer part of that group he wants to protect. 

The separation of 'maze' and post reunion Owen forgets even in the post memory phase he had the ability to love like 'maze' Owen had. He released Puddy, he started a small farm, he started to relax. It's all part of him.

In his final moments he says a few important things to note. The first being "I was a tool. I was trained. Should I have... I should have." And then right after "I can't think in my head it's split in two"

It seems some take this as 'maze' Owen coming back and fighting with Owen on should he have killed Apo and the others. However rather than 'maze' Owen coming back i think it's this internal conflict he has with himself and his ideals.

Before he says this he's getting flashbacks to the early maze days where he showed kindness to demons. Something he would never let himself do in the past outside the maze. And something he would never do after he remembers it all.

Then he says to the voices "Is that who people trust? Old Owen" while those memories are playing. The voices respond saying they miss that Owen and he replies "Yes? That wasn't me" this is possibly where it further adds to the whole 'maze' Owen is a different person thing.

Rather than facing the fact that his thinking doesn’t make sense anymore he separates himself from those memories. As soon as Owen accepts that demons are not these creatures that betray and kill you at any moment, his life has no purpose.

Owen’s thinking comes from the manipulation and propaganda he's been fed. In his final episode we get these quotes which show just how much his thinking revolves around protection and also showing what years of training did to him.

He understands he was a tool that was used. He's well aware everything he is doing may not have a purpose and yet he still plays this part. He can't break away from that thinking because if he lets himself, Owen has to face the fact that his whole life had no true meaning.

That is a terrifying thing to do. He has been in this environment for so long you can’t just take him out of it. 

Going over everything you can access in Owen’s pov, we know that before gaining his memories Owen is a person that cares deeply about his friends, he risks himself to protect them, he won’t hesitate to hold a weapon against someone he sees as a threat. Owen thinks trust is an important value to have, he takes it very seriously. But we also know that not everyone likes Owen and his leadership. He’s seen with a military mindset, people don’t want to upset him and it nearly costs his life.

Now let’s compare that with the Owen we get to know after his memories return. He wants to protect the people he deeply cares about, he risks himself to protect them, he doesn’t hesitate to hold a weapon against someone that he sees as a threat, only now the threat is demons. When we start looking at these differences, yes, Owen when he regains his memories is different, his tone changes, he murders people. But those core values we’ve seen throughout the series stay with him.

It’s one of the reasons why Owen can’t understand why no one in the clearing is on his side. He protected them against the threat they didn't know about. That is his purpose, and that’s what he’s good for. Remember right at the beginning of the series Owen sets his purpose to protect these people, now this is still the same. He views demons as a threat because he hasn’t had good experiences with them. Even if Apo became his friend in the clearing, Apo ends up lying to Owen, and betraying his trust. Guts became his friend but Guts tried to poison Magic. Owen has never fully trusted Krow and that distrust only furthers once he knows what Krow is capable of based on his experiences with demons.

So let’s go back to the previous question: who was it there? You’re probably thinking well how do you explain maze Owen and the chips. ccOwen has mentioned before that it's a possibility for the chips to alter memories. Maybe Starr suppressed those memories and maze Owen was there again. Or he was hit hard on the head right? Maybe his chip was damaged and it altered his emotions and memory.

There is too little known information to us as an audience about the chips in their head. We know they can supposedly make the outsiders lose track of time, alter their memories, their emotions and change how they act. But if the chips in their head is the explanation for everything then why does Owen remember killing his friends when he talks to Magic? He says it like he wasn't the one doing it, like he watched someone else do it. How do you explain his behaviour then? If the damaged chip really made him act like that then why do flashbacks still occur when he's in prison? He seems to have no control over those, so the chip must still work fine?

I think when we look at his character the maze has already changed him whether he likes it or not. There’s more doubt in him than before. He lets Apo go with extra time. He hesitated before he ran after him. No matter how small, he has changed.

But when Owen talks about himself in the past he makes this separation. The voices in his head won't stop calling for the guy they used to know, even though he's right here. I think Owen doesn't even want to acknowledge at one point he was friends with the demons he hated so much. 

In that prison cell all his ideals and values are facing him. Everything he's done and he's known has been a lie. I think he knows this but can't bring himself to acknowledge that. Would you admit what you thought for your entire life was wrong? That you killed countless for nothing?

When faced with death Owen becomes desperate. Which I think explains his behaviour with Magic. That is his last hope and he knows people like the older version of him. I don't think he's fully lying though when he says i don't know why I did those things. Not because maze Owen came back or anything but because in the maze he no longer has this duty but he still carries it out. He's so tired from it all and he wants to leave it behind but he can't.

So let's go over his death scene one more time. “My head it's split in two” I think the explanation for this is that he was just hit with a bunch of flashbacks of his first days. Right before this he also says ‘I was a tool. Used’ I believe in his final moments where he has a moment to think he starts to fight himself. Should he have done all this for a country that throws him away the second he's useless? He was trained to do this. But should he have really? That's what I think is making him say my head it's split in two. He's fighting his own views and alongside these positive memories it makes him confused. And overwhelmed.

It's important to note Owen doesn't have a single bad flashback about Apo and Rasbi. He doesn't think about the levers, he thinks about his friends that he met. That he protected.

The more flashbacks he gets the more defensive he becomes. “I'm right here you can't convince me otherwise” He doesn't understand why the Owen in his memories is trusted so much, even though they're the same person. In his mind he's doing what he's always done. protect.

“It wasn't me I'm sorry I just wanted to keep people safe” everything he says to Magic is half genuine and half lie. I don't think even Owen knows which parts are which. It's easier if he separates himself into the nice trusted Owen and who he is now.

No matter what in the end, that was Owen. Not Maze Owen but Owen who is desperate to live. He's tired of it all. He's finished his mission and he won't even get to see what he thinks will be an honorable ending for him.

Remember what Owen says to Apo? "The man you manipulated and lied was nothing more than a puppet driven by the instinct to survive."

So of course he'll do anything to survive even if it means playing up the truth.

It's hard to separate Owen into these neat boxes and say for sure that was Maze Owen at the end or that was full manipulation. Because like Owen everything is a bit grey here. Maze Owen wasn't the best person, he hurt his friends, people were scared of him. And post memories Owen isn't some misunderstood guy that needs babying either. 

My final thoughts on this debate is that in the end the one that pleads for his life is just Owen. To separate him and say it was Maze Owen doesn't allow you to understand how complex Owen is as a character. And continues to let you believe that Owen can't do anything wrong. Not understanding sometimes a good person is capable of this evil. To the end Owen still believed he was doing what was right and that was protecting the ones he cared about. So has anything really changed since the start?

[gegengestalt]

Listing my Brothers Karamazov fan art pet peeves:

Alyosha with a ROMAN CATHOLIC PRIEST COLLAR, I'm sorry, but that's just too wrong. He's not even a full- fledged monk. I admit I used to draw him with a monk- ish haircut when he should be growing his hair out long, and I fixed it some time ago.

Mitya with no facial hair or very little facial hair. My reaction is that of a baby who reacts to their father shaving for the first time. That's not Mitya Karamazov that's a butch lesbian (that, I can accept).

Grushenka looking too thin, or with an idea of "plump" that is just an hourglass- shaped woman (you know what I mean). Many adaptations do this as well. Keep in mind that even when she loses weight later on in the story, she's referred to as walking "the way plump women sometimes walk" (Book XII, ch 4).

This isn't really a pet peeve because I can accept it but Alyosha having extremely blond hair is scary.

Smerdyakov not being cunty enough.

That's it I'll think of more later or whatever

[lost-in-frog-land]

Angel and Spike are both equally bad for Buffy and arguing in circles about who's right for her misses the point entirely.

The thing about BTVS is that it's fundamentally a tragedy. it's about how Buffy can never really escape her obligation to the world and her destiny as the slayer, everything she has either gets caught up in the slaying or is destroyed by it, and in my mind Angel and Spike (and Riley as well but I don't see these arguments about him so much) are both supposed to highlight that.

Buffy can't have anything normal, no matter how much she wants it, her life revolves around being the slayer, and therefore so do her relationships. Her two longest standing romantic relationships are with vampires who, when you actually look at it, both treat her incredibly badly. But in her mind this is just how it is. She's the slayer, and she can't do anything about that, and it ruins her life! Neither of them are actually good or healthy for her but Buffy's life is fundamentally not good for her. It's not the life she wanted to live, so she gravitates towards people who understand, even if they're bad for her, because it's easier than trying to be this way around "normal" people. That's why she goes back to Angel after everything he did, and why she ends up with Spike. The thing with Spike is also a product of her hopelessness and self-destructive behaviour in season 6.

Buffy genuinely doesn't believe she deserves better, and every time she's tried to look for something better, her life as the slayer has ruined or destroyed it, so this is what she gets instead. And she does deserve better than either of them, but she also deserved to get to be a normal teenager and enjoy her life, and she didn't deserve to die twice before she could legally drink, or to have her life wrecked because she wasn't allowed to spend her young adulthood learning to be a person. Everything about her circumstances are tragic and fucked up and her relationships with Angel and Spike are no different. They are not supposed to be healhty or good for her, and to pretend they are removes a lot of interesting narrative points from Buffy's story.

She says it herself early season 1

[manhattan-gamestop]

Love getting upset about something before realizing it doesn't matter at all. Slow running that Paul Rudd gif

[ttroubledwaters]

alright, im coming out. i hated jegulus at first.

[greenleaf4stuff]

TROP x social media text posts

(screenshots via cap-that.com) (my other trop memes)

[panharmonium]

you and i have both found precious friends, haven't we?

every so often, i get the urge to journal out insignificant fandom annoyances. i rarely have the time and generally manage to resist because, again: insignificant. extremely so. none of this is remotely important.

however, stumbling into bad fandom "takes" on the scene i'm about to discuss has prompted me to gnash my teeth so often ("how many times am i going to have to see people refusing to actually read the text?" i repeat to myself over and over) that i'm finally going to just get it out of my system. (i'm making it non-rebloggable, though. me happily typing up my own thoughts on my own blog does not equate to an invitation for internet strangers to debate inconsequential fandom opinions with me. i just like writing things down.)

anyway. i find it deeply frustrating when people complain about kakashi saying "the ones most precious to me have already been killed" as if they think it means he doesn't recognize or value the new bonds he's made, when two panels later he finishes his speech by doing just that.

it's literally the ENTIRE point kakashi is making. we've lost so much - but that's not all there is.

i don't understand how this scene became such a magnet for willful misreads. people either fixate on kakashi saying "the ones most precious to me have already been killed" and don't read beyond that panel, or they fixate on him sharing a relevant piece of his life experience with sasuke and then accuse him of "projecting," or they claim that this is a failed teaching moment when it demonstrably, textually is not! hours later, after the sun has gone down and the moon has risen, sasuke is voluntarily still sitting there, thinking about naruto and sakura, questioning the hold his quest for vengeance against itachi has had on him all his life.

this entire sequence was one of my favorite scenes when i watched/read part 1, and it was so bizarre when i broke my fandom isolation after finishing the story and saw some of the blatantly non-textual takes people had on it. there are people who talk about this scene as if kakashi waltzes in here and tells sasuke that their situations are exactly the same and orders him to "get over it." there are also people who talk about this scene as if sasuke's role in it ends with and is defined solely by his reflexive "what do you know about it?" rejection of kakashi's earlier advice. neither of these takes are remotely accurate descriptions of what happens on the page.

at no point does kakashi say "i know exactly how you feel." there is no point in this conversation where he tries to equate their situations. what he does say is "the ones most precious to me have already been killed...i know the pain of losing somebody more than i'd like to." both of these are true statements, and both of them are offered only after sasuke's highly charged, furious threat to kill the people kakashi cares about, which kakashi (CORRECTLY) interprets as sasuke's way of accusing him of not being able to understand his feelings until he's experienced the pain of loss.

kakashi answers sasuke's threat with that calm, nonconfrontational disclosure of his personal history because sasuke asked him to do so. sasuke asked "why should i listen to you??? what do you know about how much this hurts?" and kakashi doesn't brush that accusation off or say "you just have to listen to me, period, because i'm in charge"; he answers the question! he says "that's fair. here's what I've experienced. here's what i've found, after living through it." and then he steps back to let sasuke reflect on it and decide what to do next.

just because the characters in this story don't use the kind of therapeutic feelings-speak that people think defines healthy conversations doesn't mean something is missing from this interaction. the text is VERY clear about the fact that kakashi makes a successful connection with sasuke here. kakashi's disclosure snaps sasuke out of his rage. it allows sasuke, who is hurting so badly that he can't see anything outside his own pain, to experience a momentary window of clarity - to catch a glimpse of the world outside the cage his grief has constructed around him. sasuke is so activated at the beginning of this scene, incapable of listening or recognizing anything that isn't his own hurt, but the minute he hears kakashi's calm admission that the people he loves most have already been killed, all that anger dissipates. suddenly, for a brief moment, he can see. suddenly he's listening. suddenly he's genuinely thinking about what kakashi is saying.

i know some people would prefer their version of sasuke to get up and throw kakashi's counsel back in his face and march out of the village with his middle finger raised to everyone he's leaving behind, but that's not what happens. that's not how sasuke feels about this conversation. that's not the effect this interaction has on him. he's not sitting there listening to kakashi's gentle disclosure of personal information and thinking "what an asshole; he's trying to minimize my trauma!!!" he's genuinely affected. his perspective is altered. his teacher does precisely what teachers are supposed to do: give their students something to think about! and sasuke recognizes it as something that's worth considering!

does it keep him in the village? no, but that wasn't the purpose of the conversation. when kakashi and sasuke speak, there's no inkling in anyone's mind that sasuke might leave - not even sasuke is planning to do that. the purpose of this intervention is to address the conflict on top of the hospital, where sasuke let himself get so out of control that he attacked naruto with a lethal-sized chidori, nearly killing sakura in the process. kakashi doesn't have to know that orochimaru is about to make a play for sasuke's allegiance to know that sasuke's current situation is a disaster waiting to happen. he isn't "projecting" by recognizing that sasuke is in danger of hurting somebody (or himself!), and it's completely appropriate for him, as the adult in charge, to start addressing that. nor is he "projecting" by correctly recognizing that sasuke is going through a similar change to one he himself experienced, in that sasuke is being drawn out of his isolation and into genuinely caring about his teammates. those are just the observable facts of the situation. sasuke was the first one to pass kakashi's bell test. he sacrificed himself for naruto in the land of waves. he landed himself in the hospital by trying to protect naruto from itachi. right before that, he almost died trying to save sakura from gaara:

"you and i have both found precious friends, haven't we?"

kakashi can see that sasuke's bonds to his new friends have become strong enough that they might actually be capable of displacing the self-destructive desires that have been controlling him for so long. and yet there are still people who talk about the tree scene as if kakashi is wrong or deluded for choosing to have this conversation with sasuke now - as if the things he tells sasuke are trite or irrelevant or insensitive, as if sasuke isn't in PRECISELY the right place in his growth process to hear "your desire for revenge has started to hurt you and the people you care about. are you sure this is what you want?" in the past, sasuke might not have been ready to consider that question, but now - look at how hard he fights for his friends! look at how he refers to them! "my precious comrades," he says, when he used to consider them so beneath him.

it's time. when he first met team 7, he didn't have anything to counter itachi's pull on him, but now he does. he's at a crossroads. this is the right moment for him to hear what kakashi says to him here, especially when kakashi is able to say it in such a calm, neutral way. it would be negligent for kakashi not to say it, after what just happened. sasuke almost killed one of his teammates that morning. it is not malicious for an adult whose responsibility it is to keep these twelve year-olds from hurting themselves to tell sasuke, "i know it hurts. but what you're doing right now is going to end badly." or: "the power i entrusted you with is not to be used to hurt your friends."

and once again, crucially - the text is clear that sasuke hears him. sasuke absorbs what he's being offered. he is still sitting there, thinking about his friends, questioning his old goals, fighting the powerful pull of his revenge, until orochimaru's minions show up and do something that kakashi never did - manipulate him so someone else can use him for their benefit. orochimaru's minions prey on sasuke's pain in order to push him down a path that benefits orochimaru, but kakashi speaks to sasuke plainly and honestly, without judgment or self-interest. his only concern is sasuke's well-being. (you wouldn't know it, though, to hear some of fandom's hot takes.)

the thing is: everything people claim they want this scene to be is already there. "if only kakashi had used this opportunity to connect with sasuke - " that is exactly what happened. you're lamenting the absence of something that is in fact the text. no, it doesn't look like a scene in a fanfic where kakashi sits sasuke down for tea and helps him unpack all his traumatic experiences and offers lots of verbal reassurance that sasuke's emotions are Valid and he is here to Support Him No Matter What, because that kind of explicit emotional exploration would be wildly inconsistent with the source material. you have to approach stories from the inside to legitimately appreciate what they're trying to say. you have to accept their rules. and in this story's context, in no way is this scene meant to convey "kakashi's so out of touch; he totally missed the mark on this talk." this scene, as written, is a powerful moment between him and sasuke, where sasuke does hear what kakashi is saying and takes it to heart, and chews on it, and fights to believe it. ultimately, thanks to some last-minute interference from people who want sasuke to continue suffering because it advances their interests, it isn't enough to save him.

but that's not a condemnation of either party. it's the narrative, and it rocks.

i love this scene. i love how kakashi lets sasuke snarl and shout at him without ever biting back, without ever escalating, always staying quiet and calm. i love how patient he is, how an angry kid with no clue about kakashi's personal background says cutting things like "if i killed the people most precious to you then you'd understand that you don't know shit," and yet kakashi never bristles - he has no ego, no self-interest; he absorbs the anger without protest and responds by offering a private piece of himself. i love the way sasuke's expression instantly transforms from enraged, to stunned, to softened. i love how kakashi is able to tell sasuke "no" with such compassion, every time he has to say it. i love how he still believes in sasuke and gives him space to reflect and make decisions on his own. i love how even the sealing jutsu kakashi placed around orochimaru's curse mark requires sasuke's consent for it to function ("you have to want it to work"). i love how badly sasuke wants team 7 to be enough for him. i love how desperately he wants to be free. he's trying so hard.

it's so frustrating to see complaints about this scene written by people who aren't actually reading it, or who are dead set on interpreting it in direct contradiction to the text. there are enough ungenerous "takes" out there on various aspects of naruto as it is (sakura, you have my forever sympathy). criticizing this sequence in defiance of what it actually shows us on the page has never struck me as a particularly accurate or useful way of appreciating the story.

[studentinpursuitofclouds]

Oh my gosh, your headcannons are so good! It seems like every time I come back to Stardew I find interesting content! So... I saw that your requests are open, so I decided to make a request for a headcanon of the reactions of the bachelors and bachelorettes of SVE (+ Isaac, if possible) when they hold their newborn children in their arms for the first time? Reactions of both children, if possible, but I understand if it's too much, I don't want to impose myself. Anyway, thanks in advance and I apologize if the request was confusing or if I seemed rude, since English is not even remotely a language that I speak, and sometimes I can get confused while translating from Portuguese to English...

*Sobbing* Thank you very much, dear anon. I'm incredibly glad that you and others like my headcanons 🥺 And don't worry, you translated everything perfectly. English is not my native language either, so I feel ya, I also sometimes worry that I will write an ask to someone incorrectly. Anyway, enjoy! ❤️

_____________________________

SVE bachelors + Isaac:

Lance walks slowly around the room holding his son/daughter and smiles softly, rocking gently to keep the baby from crying. "Well hello there, little one. Farmer and I have been waiting a long time for your arrival." Luckily, the Guilds let adventurers off more often and take some of the responsibilities off their shoulders if they became parents until the baby turns 3, and Lance takes this opportunity to be with the baby and Farmer more often. To tell the truth, Lance didn't think about wanting a son more than a daughter, or vice versa. The most important for him - that the child was fed, healthy and happy.

Magnus still couldn't believe his own eyes. He, an old grumpy wizard, twice heartbroken and without particularly high chance of starting a family, held a small child in his arms. His child. The wizard's vision blurred with tears and his voice shook slightly. He was happy, he was so, so happy. Not even Camilla and the other colleagues would ruin his mood to know that the usually reserved wizard was overcome with emotion. Not to say he had any preference on what gender he even wanted the the first child to be (technically, his firstborn is a daughter), the baby is fine and happy - that's good enough for Magnus.

The baby Victor held in his arms was so small... The young father was afraid of dropping the baby, so he stood still, holding his child like a fragile crystal. Rivers of tears ran down his cheeks as he cooed to the baby, saying how happy he is that their new family member finally arrived. When asked by Victor to hand the baby over to his spouse/nurse, the spaghetti lover hesitated slightly, wanting to hold his child a little longer. Until the baby starts crying, because of hunger, then Victor immediately handed the baby over for feeding. He doesn't know why, but he was a little more excited about the girl, though boy or girl, he was basically just glad that the kid was healthy and happy.

It's rare to catch Isaac with a soft smile on his face instead of a wolfish grin or just plain indifference. Farmer, as his beloved partner, sees him smile more often than not (and often they are the reason for the grumpy adventurer's smile). When Isaac held his baby for the first time, his smile was so wide and bright, he shone with happiness like the sun. If it is a boy, the adventurer honestly admits that he wanted a son as his first, to raise him as a good man and the protector of his future siblings (if he and Farmer decided for another one). With the baby girl, Isaac's mindset will not really change, he will be a loving and very gentle father (he will agree to all of his daughter's requests to play tea party).

SVE bachelorettes:

When Sophia held her baby in her arms for the first time, she began to sob with happiness almost uncontrollably. Her precious child, her treasure. She and Farmer had waited so long for the arrival of their son/daughter, and now this moment had come. Sophia promised the baby that she would be the best mother in the world, that she would love and protect them, that she and Farmer would give the baby the best life. And although because of the tears and emotions the pink-haired girl's speech was an incomprehensible set of words, Farmer understood her, so that's the main thing. She will love both children equally, but I think Sophia will be a little more excited about the girl first, thinking about the future mother/daughter relationship.

When Olivia held her baby for the first time, she felt the same way when she held little Victor - an almost overwhelming feeling of love and affection, and a strong desire to care for and protect them at all costs. She would be overwhelmed with emotions of joy and happiness, and she wouldn't give a damn about the make-up that smudged. For Olivia, her family is the most important thing, everything else doesn't bother her too much. The former accountant is pretty excited if it's a girl (she's always wanted a son and a daughter in family), but she's incredibly excited about a son too, already imagining the bond the baby will have with his older brother.

Claire held her baby close to her heart and refused to let go. She gently rocked her baby to sleep, crying quietly from the overwhelming happiness. When the cashier calms down a little, she starts cooing, promising to be the best mother in the world to her precious child, helping and protecting them. Claire loves her and Farmer's baby anyway, though she will honestly say that she used to dream specifically of a daughter, dreaming of a mother/daughter bonding, of teaching her how to dance and how they would grow sunflowers in the backyard.

[cry-ptidd]

Bad case of the munchies

[keydekyie]

[toddles angrily]

[scribefindegil]

What I've learned from a couple weeks of engagement is that I'm going to be pretty chill and flexible regarding like 98% of wedding stuff however I am already conducting an exhaustive survey of every bakery in our metro area because that is the only way to acquire a cake that lives up to my standards.

[hajihiko]

Are trans women real women?

As opposed to what. Fictional? A mannequin? Unreal in the sense that it's unreal how bomb she is?

(tags V relevant)

[lemonhemlock]

look. not to be too mean on main. the rightful heir thing. if you don't care about the intricacies of property law or legal writs and just want to focus on characterization and other aspects of storytelling, fine.

but it truly does look very goofy when you start "debating" this while lacking historical context and methodological tools. sometimes a constitutional crisis (that was already resolved in the 12th century and whose results you can always look up) can't just be settled by appealing to one's anachronistic opinion and accusing those who disagree of misogyny.

there's a difference between suggesting how things should be (i.e. prescriptive, i.e. women should never inherit the throne) and analysing how things were for a myriad of socio-political reasons.

also, trust me, the Dance being fictional is not the gotcha people think it is. it's plenty obvious. i'm sorry to say but the premise is so flimsy it would never have happened like that irl.

final idea: likewise, perhaps being condescending about people who do take the time to criticise the premise is veering a little bit towards anti-intellectualism. 'idc about succession laws ergo i'm more enlightened bc i've unlocked an edgelord-y way to enjoy fiction'. a medievalesque fantasy setting is going to attract commentators who are interested in medieval history or at least aspects of it. they may find copy-paste scenarios from real history and think it interesting to compare and contrast. it's not immediately equivalent to treating aegon and rhaenyra like your ballot choices next election, and, equally, they're not discussions without merit.

comparative analysis is a transferable skill! if someone doesn't want to partake, fine, but i think this attitude of turning one's nose at it is a tad coarse. there are many fans who take the time to write informative posts and contextualise this fictionalised universe and it's a shame to automatically write-off what is ultimately a rich tradition in internet asoiaf spaces