#my issues with c!tommy and c!wilburs ending are not that they’re bad it’s that they portray suicide in extremely irresponsible lights

[proudfreakmetarusonikku]

i think whether c!tommy Actually Died or not in the nuke ending is kinda irrelevant bc narratively it’s still framed as what happens Because he tries to kill himself. and like i don’t really care if something supernatural happens to stop death i think portraying a suicidal abuse victim who’s struggling to heal attempting suicide and then getting everything they ever want as directly stated by them after years of never letting them get a W is whether intentionally or not framing suicide as The Correct Option if you’re traumatised and that’s extremely irresponsible. like when I say it shouldn’t be canon it isn’t even bc of the plot holes or it being a terrible ending bc it wasn’t designed to be one even though I do hate it on those levels. i think it shouldn’t be canon bc that’s, like, an actively dangerous way to show suicide and should not have happened with the audience those creators have. i feel the same about c!wilburs ending too. they’re so irresponsible with extremely dangerous topics after building up a fanbase due to having them portrayed Well that i think they go beyond bad writing into being potentially extremely harmful considering how young the audience of mcyt channels realistically skews. i don’t think it’s a moral failure to make that mistake but I think if you’re a channel of that size it’s very possible to genuinely hurt people doing so and i think it being retconned isn’t just like, getting rid of an ending I dislike, i think it’s important bc it’s directly addressing the extremely harmful message those streams gave- even if unintentionally- and saying “nope that’s wrong”, and that’s important bc like. i have been to fan events for these streamers when my health was good enough to give a shit about them and not just their OCs and you’d be surprised at how large their audience leans in the single digit age. you don’t see them bc they can’t post on social media but they’re there and they genuinely might not be able to understand those messages as wrong, which i don’t think doing that on accident is a moral failure again (though if you have a pattern of ableism i will look at it suspiciously) you can still hurt people by accident and it is in fact a good thing to say that you did not mean that and that that’s wrong.

[ghosts-and-blue-sweaters]

you mentioned having a modern au with ghostbur and c!tommy that's basically big hero 6... i am very intrigued... do tell me more...

OH MY GOSH MEREDITH HI!!! This ask got buried in my notifs ansgajsgajfsja apologies for the lateness!!

Okay! So! Background info:

Tommy is a kid who’s been bounced around the foster care system for most of his life. He’s used to not staying anywhere for long, and not making close connections with anybody.

That is!!! Until he lands in the home of Phil, a random guy who’s been taking care of foster kids for a while. He’s chill, and nice, and he also understands how hard things can be. Tommy likes him!

Along with getting to know Phil, Tommy also gets to know Wilbur, a former foster kid of Phil’s :) Wilbur is in his early twenties at this point, but he wound up in Phil’s home when he was a teenager—a very, very troubled teenager. Phil and Wilbur are pretty much father & son, but it’s not legal or anything; Wilbur never told Phil he wanted to be adopted, and Phil didn’t want to push it. Eventually, Wilbur aged out of the foster system and moved away, though he still lives nearby and he and Phil see each other often :) Their bond is very very close & special & filled with love.

So anyway, Tommy gets to know Wilbur! They very quickly become close, and a little after that they become unofficial brothers! Wilbur is… the closest thing Tommy’s really ever had to family. He loves him more than anything else. And Wilbur absolutely adores Tommy as well!! He’s got a little brother!! That’s kinda sweet, isn’t it?

Tommy’s ramshackle family isn’t perfect by any means—Wilbur, especially, is clearly dealing with mental health issues but he refuses to talk about any of it—but Tommy thinks it’s the best thing ever anyway. Despite the problems, the three of them really do love and care for each other, and they’re happy together. They are a family, even if not exactly legally considered one.

And then Wilbur dies. He’s killed late one night at his house, by a man with a gun. And then Tommy isn’t sure what’s family anymore.

That’s all the background info! By the time the fic actually begins, things are a lot different—a bad sort of different. Tommy and Phil don’t know what to do with each other, or how to handle losing Wilbur. Tommy quickly becomes distant, refusing to open himself up to his foster dad, and closing himself up in his room. It’s… strange. And bad. And really, really hard. And more than anything, Tommy misses Wilbur. He misses his brother. He misses his best friend. He wants Wilbur back. It wasn’t fair that he died. He shouldn’t have died.

And then, somehow, an even stranger thing happens!

While walking home one day (Tommy’s a teenager in this fic, probably 15 or 16) he comes across… Wilbur? Except it’s not Wilbur. Someone who looks like him, sure, someone who has Wilbur’s face and eyes and smile. But it’s not him.

Ghostbur doesn’t exactly know what he is either. He knows he’s a ghost, presumably the ghost of Wilbur, but he’s about as confused as Tommy is! He doesn’t know why he exists, why he apparently sounds different than Wilbur, why he can float, what his purpose is, or why Tommy is the only person who can see him. It’s all a big mess, pretty much!

And that’s kinda what the whole fic is: Tommy, still grieving his brother, has to find out what the heck to do with Ghostbur, who’s worryingly carefree about the whole situation. They also both get chick-fil-a milkshakes at some point because that’s literally why I came up with this whole AU in the first place, so that Ghostbur could have a milkshake 😭 I 100% came up with this whole entire story just so that Ghostbur could have a milkshake. I promise I am not joking.

I’ve written two chapters so far, but after I realized that I… don’t really know where the story is going/how it’s gonna end, it fizzled out 😅 But I really do like the idea!! And I do want to write more!! It’s really just a matter of me figuring out an actual plot lol

The similarities to Big Hero 6 are kinda funny ajgsjagsjsgajsgjagaha

Younger brother is best friends with older brother

Older brother is killed

Younger brother befriends a being that was created by the older brother (Baymax/Ghostbur)

A parental figure who’s not actually the parent takes/took care of younger brother and older brother (Aunt Cass/Phil)

This is basically a Big Hero 6 AU without the superpowers lol

[issybettyx]

Guess who watched the new puss in boots today and could only think of how he could turn it into an au? Me.

So i’m gonna explain my thoughts on an sbi/dsmp au puss in boots, spoilers ahead for the film

-

Puss in boots - techno, bad ass with a sword, doesn’t feel fear ect ect. He had several near death experiences and somehow made it out alive, but never truly enjoyed life, so dream (death) comes to finally take his life

Softpaws - wilbur. He is not in love with techno, cus that’s just weird ew and also it just makes aus better when they’re found family (says literally everyone ever). Wilbur distrusts techno after he left him alone in a room full of people who hated them, and somehow made it out. Has trust issues, but is still a badass

Perrito - tommy. Chaotic little shit, just wants friends, sees the best in everything and everyone because we love a good optimist :) tommy just wants techno and wilbur, two friends he starts to see as brothers, to be happy, and can see their brotherly relationship from miles away even when they can’t. He also saves the day, cus he’s actually awesome

Death - dream, man dedicates his life to hunting down techno because he doesn’t value his life as much as he should, and also just hates the fact he keeps getting away. After an epic battle, he realises that techno realises his life has value when there’s people he cares about in it, and that Wilbur and tommy make him a better person

Goldilocks - PHIL. That man just wants a family, idk what to tell you, him and his crows (cough cough the bears) dedicate their very souls to getting that wish because Phil wants a family. And he sees The renowned technoblade, Wilbur soot and some random blonde kid called tommy trying to get this wish, and decides if he can’t wish for a family, maybe he’d just make them his own, and bring his crows along with him

Jack Horner (the dude who eats the pie) - i didn’t actually have a set person for this, horner in this film is a horrible person through and through, the conscience on his shoulder not being able to influence him at all was proof of that. I dont know a character that didn’t change at all, like even c!dream learned at the very end it wasn’t worth it, and tho that was hardly anything at least he learned something! Horner was loved as a child, given everything including love and respect, and still he remained horrible, so i don’t have someone for him lmao

The cat lady Luna - I can just imagine Niki or Puffy taking all these stray cats in and taking care of them, :000 maybe BOTH OF THEM!!! Omg what if they both take in stray cats and like omg i had a realisation this is so cool

Anyways it was a fantastic film highly recommend, like it was genuinely awesome

[kaiokentimesten]

HELLO hi yes i am here to be c!eret’s lawyer /HALF-JOKE. the main idea of viceduo’s post was that c!wilbur had nothing to apologize to c!eret for, and i politely disagree with not only the idea, but the… well, the formatting of it? okay.

1. at time of FCR and pretty much every c!eret-c!wilbur interaction, canon lives Weren’t Canon Yet. while c!wilbur c!tommy c!tubbo and c!fundy were all played fairly traumatized from the FCR, they only lost their gear, the war, and at the end of it— c!tommy’s discs.

2. c!eret was raked through the MUD for the FCR. including by c!wilbur! i agree that Being The Cause for Four People’s Deaths is not comparable to c!wilbur’s constant reputation-tanking hatred of c!eret, but c!eret thru aug2020-jan2021 Definitely accrued grievance material about their treatment. c!eret was described, by c!wilbur, as being (paraphrased) “a scapegoat for [his] own failings as president”.

3. logically, the FCR is comparatively more horrible to c!wilbur than his reputation tanking to c!eret. apologies do not work logically. people can request/demand apologies for very crazy things! c!eret, however rational or not, felt that she had been abandoned by c!wilbur, and wanted an apology. she’s not wrong for this, she’s a dynamic character. she has all the love in her heart for c!wilbur, sees him as a great inspiration even! apologies are not clear-cut, they’re emotional

sorry if this is a lot, i love debate. all the respect in the world !! :D

I see I see! I get what you’re saying. However...

1. Even if the lives were not “canon” yet, the impact of the FCR was still established in canon the moment it happened and thereafter. They changed the lyrics to the L’manberg anthem because of it, c!Wilbur started his paranoid down spiral mostly because of it, and as we see from this vod at 49:56—where cQuackity is leading cCrime into the casino—c!Wilbur still has a fear of cramped hallways from the FCR: before walking in, Wilbur says, “Stand back, stand back, I don’t- I’m not too comfortable this.”

And, of course, those lives were made canon soon after, and were canon in the My Own Judas stream. So, the fact that they weren’t canon lives doesn’t particularly matter in my opinion, since either way, that fear and the trauma was played seriously from the start. c!Eret’s actions directly impacted all of them, especially c!Wilbur. For c!Wilbur, he lost his trust too. Like I said, the FCR kicked off his paranoid down spiral, leading him to eventually believe no one was truly on his side. Canon lives, while important, were never really the focus, you know?

2. I’m not particularly sure what your point is here, I’ll be honest. c!Eret was the cause of c!Wilbur’s death and the death of the people he called his friends and family—I think that’s a perfectly justifiable reason to not like someone. Plus, c!Wilbur’s hatred of c!Eret isn’t what ruined Eret’s reputation: the fact that Eret betrayed the nation they were fighting for did. Eret established herself as someone to not be trusted, even if her reasons were justified in her head. 

As for that quote you gave, I’m not sure where it’s from (I think it’s from My Own Judas?), but regardless, I don’t think you can really use c!Wilbur’s words as concrete evidence. Wilbur is a character that will constantly lie about and downplay his own feelings to avoid being outright truthful and vulnerable. However, even if he did mean what he said, it’s still not as bad as what c!Eret did to him, you know?

3. This is a fair point! I do agree, apologies are not usually meant to be logical, and c!Eret is an emotional character who will act on those emotions at times, and that’s totally fine!

However, my issue is that the narrative treats this like a good thing. This stream was for c!Wilbur’s arc primarily, and having him give an apology in response to c!Eret’s frankly unreasonable demands and having it be treated as a positive thing is...not a great look. Especially considering the fact that, to my knowledge, c!Eret never really gives c!Wilbur a proper apology and an admittance of “I hurt you, I’m sorry, and I’m trying to be better.” 

I do believe I understand what you’re trying to say. c!Eret is an interesting character and I thought her redemption arc was good! However, I don’t think these arguments entirely justify c!Wilbur apologizing to her and it being treated as a good thing. 

[subwalls]

Snippets of text I added to a reblog from 7 months ago:

I view c!Dream as a tragedy, mostly—specifically of the “lost sight of what matters” kind of character. He’s talked about his “big, happy family” before, a statement so definitive that everyone freaked out when c!Ranboo unintentionally parroted it. It’s a really interesting motivation, because it’s idyllic to the point of impossibility; you can’t just go back in time and pretend that the conflicts never happened and the nations never existed. But he wants to. And he thinks he can, by employing the very same methods that wrought those conflicts into being: manipulation of the “narrative”.

[...]

The problem is, c!Dream’s lost sight of what matters. What does he really want? His end goal is the dissolution of nations and wars, the unification of the server, sure—but why? We don’t really know the answer to this (though you could extrapolate a great number of good or bad things from it), but it’s important to ask, because he might be giving it up in pursuit of this grand ideal of peacefulness that remains constantly out of reach. A comparison I like to draw is in a different form of roleplaying media, as follows:

[ID: Taliesin: Be gentle in your motives, is all I ask. Always—it’s always worth thinking about what you really want. It’s the only thing that really matters.

Liam: I want the murderers removed from power in my country.

Taliesin: Why? Really. Why?

Liam: Because I’m tired of children being thrown on the pyre.

Taliesin: That’s what you really don’t want. That’s what you want, though. You want no more children on the pyre. Always remember that. You don’t want to punish the people who made you. You want to make sure that no one else makes you. You’ll get there quicker.]

c!Dream, as I view it, is someone who has lost sight of that direct connection between his means and his end. He wants peace, and he’s willing to give up anything and everything for it, but his methods have muddled and obscured his true intentions to the point where the two are barely even connected anymore.

[...]

Now, that isn’t to overlook the fact that c!Tommy is a liar and a scammer who talks faster than he thinks and believes consequences are for other people, and that’s what makes him fun to watch—but it doesn’t make him deserving of the strife he has to endure. And that’s the point! Nobody deserves the kind of harm and retribution so often tossed around on this server, no matter what they’ve done. Acknowledging that c!Tommy isn’t a pure, poor uwu tiny baby boy but still deserves sympathy and respect in the aftermath of traumatic events is vital to understanding the circle of violence in the SMP, because forgetting that is how the cycle perpetuates. This applies to all of the characters, from c!Tommy to c!Niki to c!Wilbur to c!Dream to c!Sam to c!Quackity.

[...]

[ID: Taliesin: Intentions and actions are rarely connected. They’re distant cousins. I mean, it’s true. Think about everybody here. This is a whole group of people with, I mean, I’ll just say it, we have some issues.]

[simplepotatofarmer]

technoblade: a takedown - pt. 1

(not clickbait)

aka i go over every argument people make against c!techno one by one and determine whether they’re valid, false, or a mixture of both. i rewatched every single stream/video, including those on his alt channel, so i could approach this with the most information possible. i’ll be breaking this up into parts because there’s just too much otherwise. all about the characters unless stated.

techno believes in a ‘dog eat dog’ world - false

this is an argument i see used a lot when people discuss techno so i wanted to address it first. luckily, the stream in which he says this is only his fifth stream on the server. there’s one major reason why this argument falls apart and one minor reason that isn’t objective like the first.

first and most importantly: techno has never acted on this. even at the beginning - which is when this comment was made - he was helping his allies, from building railings to keep them from falling, making a potato farm, and all the gear he grinded for to equip his allies in pogtopia with. moving forward, he’s also helped out plenty of people: giving tommy a place to stay and items, telling phil to reach out to ranboo after doomsday, as well as giving both tommy and ranboo food when asked. there’s more, of course, but the point is he’s never once followed up on this statement. he teamed up with quackity to stop the egg. he spoke to niki about how he was giving anarchy a bad reputation because of the violence and wanted to take a different approach which he has.

when people use this argument to insist that techno is the villain, it doesn’t hold up because it’s merely taking one statement he made and upholding it as a main part of his character when his actions and later statements have shown that he doesn’t actually believe in this randian view point. objectively, i can’t see how this argument can extend beyond ‘well, he said it’. regardless of what he said during the pogtopia arc, he’s said the opposite later - wanting everyone to live free with no oppression or imperialism - and has never acted on it nor brought it up later. this take honestly seems disingenuous and was in fact the driving factor of this post.

second and not as critical, techno mentions multiple times during each of his first streams that he’s not sure who all is on his side. this is a reoccurring point for him. he makes the comment about wanting a dog eat dog world during the red festival stream, while speaking to bad and sam. the first part of the conversation is techno asking about state secrets since they’re (as far as techno knows) on manberg’s side. bad mentions schlatt killing cats and techno launches into a spiel about massive anarchy and the weak being huddled in fear, asking them how does that sound. bad says as long as there’s no cat murder, perhaps. bad then asks techno what his ‘single issue’ is and techno responds that he wants to destroy the government. to me, the context of the conversation, who he’s speaking to and what his opinion of those people is, is an important thing to consider.

techno’s ‘we’ll burn that bridge when we get to it’ comment means he was always going to betray pogtopia/l’manberg - valid but not how you think it is

i’ve seen people say that techno saying ‘we’ll burn that bridge when we get to it’ is a clear sign that he was always intending to betray pogtopia/l’manberg which, yeah? 

but i wouldn’t call it a betrayal. 

he says the ‘we’ll burn that bridge when we get to it’ line at the end of the ‘eve of revolution’ stream while he’s talking to quackity, ponk, and sam. the conversation is as follows:

techno, to quackity: i’m glad we could get to know each other. i heard you’re on our side now. i heard you betrayed schlatt.

quackity: yeah, that’s right. are you betraying anyone?

techno: no. i would never betray my personal ideals.

[some chatter from ponk and quackity]

sam: what does that mean? what if the people you’re fighting along [sic] have different ideals than you, though? doesn’t that mean you’d betray them?

techno: listen... we’ll burn that bridge when we get to it.

then techno states that he ‘said what he said’ when sam questions him about his choice of metaphor.

he actually uses the same malaphor at the beginning of the ‘revolution’ stream when they (quackity and tubbo) question him again and in that case techno definitely avoids the subject which isn’t a good thing but considering everyone was so worked up about the possible traitor, i can completely understand.

overall, techno is extremely upfront about his intentions. yes, there is definitely some miscommunication between all the parties because none of them were on the same page but that doesn’t make techno the bad guy here nor does it mean he betrayed anyone. he was upfront about his intentions from the start.

in his first two streams, he makes a joke that if they happen to set up a new government/president that he would just take that one down and it would be a never-ending cycle. over and over, he says that he wants to do destroy the government/manberg. when tommy mentions taking it back, techno says, ‘what do you mean, take it back?’ though this kind of gets lost in the middle of everything else - dsmp (lack of) communication strikes again. 

the takeaway that i see here a lot is that techno always intended to betray them because he knew tommy wanted to take back l’manberg and knew that he would go against them if they set up a new government. and this is true to an extent! he did know that tommy wanted l’manberg back and he did know that he would go against them if they set up a new government. but wilbur was also telling techno that he was on board with the whole anarchy thing. 

none of them were on the same page and that surely led to a big chunk of what happened and hurt feelings on both sides but that doesn’t mean techno betrayed anyone or that he was the bad guy for doing exactly what he said he would do from day one.

techno destroying (l’)manberg was wrong - it’s complicated

the first thing to address here is that for most anarchists, destroying a government isn’t a bad thing. in fact, taking down the government/state is basically our goal. now, i don’t speak for all anarchists, of course, but overall the general feeling is that violence in the name of overthrowing an oppressive government is not inherently bad. there’s no way to do a one-for-one here because it’s minecraft but the general sentiment remains. so while violence enacted against the state is a bad thing for people who aren’t anarchists, techno has no reason to and would not view it as inherently bad.  

but it did hurt people and techno himself acknowledges that fact. he’s acknowledged what he’s done when confronted about it. he hasn’t said he was wrong because understanding that it was hurtful doesn’t mean he believes he was wrong. to him, he wasn’t. destroying what he viewed as an oppressive system was the right thing to do, even if it hurt people.

(also this isn’t any kind of meta but i think it needs to be pointed out that wilbur had already set off the tnt and techno summoned two killable mobs which did plenty of damage but he didn’t say wilbur was the great who came before them for no reason.)

again, this is going to be the most controversial part of this post because i don’t believe destroying government is a bad thing and i don’t believe techno is wrong for believing that as well. there are better ways to address the problem and techno is adjusting his tactics but if another government was to be established, i don’t believe he would be in the wrong to destroy it because he’s an anarchist.

the tl;dr of this section honestly could just be summed up with ‘watch less marvel, read more ursula k. le guin’.

‘techno is the villain because he called tommy the hero’ - so very false 

this is a take i’ve seen that to this day i don’t understand.

techno calling tommy the hero does not mean he was setting himself up as the villain in any capacity. it was merely pointing out tommy’s habit of putting himself at the forefront of almost every conflict, trying to shoulder everything, no matter how it hurts tommy himself. the speech was directed at that and nothing else. it doesn’t mean techno is the villain, it doesn’t even mean there is a villain; there are more stories to be told than the classic hero-villain and the hero-villain narrative doesn’t always apply to stories. (i’d certainly argue that it doesn’t apply to the dream smp but that’s a different conversation.)

techno is to blame for tubbo’s death - false

i think this one has been done to death but what would a techno post be without it?

no, techno is not to blame.

he said over and over that he was outnumbered and believed that if he had done anything, everyone would’ve turned on him and ‘torn him to shreds’. even if that wasn’t the case, it is what techno believed. he had no reason to think that he could take the entire crowd out until he actually fired the rocket launcher. and remember, he tested the rocket launcher earlier during the festival on niki (who volunteered) and it didn’t kill her. when he realized the amount of splash damage it did, he gives a surprised laugh and then begins firing into the crowd. 

as for saying he was under ‘mild’ amounts of peer pressure, techno has a habit of minimizing. not just the things he’s done, but often situations that he’s been in that were stressful. he stated that he deals poorly with high stress situations and one of the cognitive distortions that can come with anxiety is minimization. techno doesn’t actually believe it was ‘mild’ peer pressure - it was a situation that caused him enough distress that he brings it up later at doomsday - but it’s easier to deal with a situation when you downplay it, it’s easier for techno to keep up that calm façade when he’s acting as if whatever happened wasn’t that big of a deal even if it was. again, the way he speaks about it on doomsday was clearly upset and emotional. 

the only person to blame for tubbo’s death is schlatt. he was the one pulling the trigger and techno was the gun.

if you made it this far, thank you for sticking it out! i spent so many hours rewatching all the streams, some of them multiple times, while taking notes to be able to do this. i’m extremely passionate about techno and i feel as if a lot of the arguments against him tend to miss the nuance of his character. this project is on-going and i’ll be going over the butcher army/retirement storylines next. feel free to submit any points you’d like to see addressed! 

[mcmoth]

Actually, y'know what? My last reblog reminded me of something I've thought about.

You know Tommy and Tubbo said they would have 'everything they ever wanted and cared about' with them, if they ever left. Left Wilbur, left L'manburg, left maybe even the server, with just them two, far away from it all. But y'know why Tommy says "no" to that?

Because it wasn't true.

They wouldn't have everything they cared about with them if they left. Because as much as they hold each other priority, they still care about everything else, too. Tommy wasn't giving up on Wilbur. Tubbo wasn't giving up on L'manburg. They stayed, because they wanted to - they still had attachment.

And thing is, we know they're able to leave. New people come. Techno goes on his trips. Most notable leave I feel, was the one c!Fundy did, when he left, in canon, to figure himself out. And you know why I think he was alright with leaving?

That's right. Cause he had nothing left there. Nothing he cared enough to stay for, noone there that cared enough to make him stay.

And I'd say that's why all of them don't leave, why the server is such an echo chamber where everyone is in such close proximity that conflicts just further and further themselves. Why Tommy sticks with Wilbur, why Eret stays and digs heels into the past, why Puffy vowed to be a knight for others, why Jack keeps making up more and more elaborate plans to make himself feel recognized, why Sam keeps working at the prison, why Dream is so obsessed, why Bad is pushing everyone away, why Wilbur refuses to be vulnerable, why Quackity is turning to extremes after being left behind...

That's right.

All of these motherfuckers have big ass attachment issues.

There. I've solved the smp for you /j

No, but seriously. That's kinda why i'm hoping that, if season 1 said "sometimes, you're forced to give up on what you care about for the better", and s2 said "actually, you shouldn't be forced to do anything, you should hold onto what you care about", then that s3 and onwards will say "you can and should care about things, but as well as knowing what to keep, knowing what to let go, of your own volition, is essential to helping yourself and others thrive".

And, well. If it ends with them deciding to go far away, start a new life, and let go of the imminent reminders of the past keeping everyone down as they hold all they still do care to keep close, gazing upon a brand new server... I just think that'd be neat.

[thespoonisvictory]

what do you not like about how limbo was handled? i personally really like it but there are a few bits that rub me the wrong way and i cant put it into words

I like this question!

ok so basically:

my issue with limbo is that it not only traps ghostbur in effectively hell forever, for no good story reason other than angst, and it prevents any happy ending.

these characters aren’t immortal, right? something will kill them or they'll die on their own eventually, but it seems like no matter what they're doomed to an eternity in limbo. c!tommy and ghostbur didn't do anything to be trapped in there, but dream could have just given them eternal torture forever, which just- isn't satisfying.

while I think death being pleasant would be a bad choice: given the suicidal nature of some of the characters, making death an escape, especially for someone like c!wilbur who wanted that, would be bad, the alternative isn't much better.

so now we're trapped in this problem where either view of the afterlife seems to be bad: innocent people are condemned to horrible things forever, meaning there's eventually no happy ending no matter what, but a good afterlife validates wilbur in particular's suicidality, there's no way to win.

however, I don't think it's unfixable, or even that the story won't twist to resolve this, and there are a few ways I could think of doing this.

1. limbo is in fact created by the presence of the revival book. by destroying the book, the characters will simply cease to exist once they die, and the key is learning that sometimes it's better to just let people go.

or

2. limbo is only present for characters that have "unfinished business." limbo only existed because the universe knew that at some point tommy would be revived, and schlatt and mexican dream are just fragments it created to disguise this. this implies ghostbur would have future story relevance, though that could work tbh

[dyinginlava]

Analysing “Let Me Be Your Vassal” (aka that one Dream & Wilbur conversation)

Wherein Cy decides going line by line through a scene from five months ago is a wonderful idea

Alright, let’s go! Recently I went back to watch Wilbur’s ‘Am I The Villain?’ video, since it was the first DSMP video I actually watched and I noticed something that made me actually go and find the vod from October 8th to specifically watch it: the details of Wilburs conversation with Dream where he asks for the TNT. Now, this did happen about five months ago now, but I think it would be good to look at this scene both with further character information we have now, and hopefully to clarify some things that newer fans might not be aware of! There’s also the fact that c!Wilbur is likely returning to the story soon.

I will be using quotes with timestamps to support my analysis, from this video. When [...] is used, it is to indicate an irrelevant tangent or repetition. Also, I feel it is important to note that this analysis is not meant to indicate moral judgement in any way: it is intended as a unbiased look at character actions and motivations.

First, let’s establish the exact situation here. At this point in time, we’re before the festival, and Dream has volunteered to help Pogtopia and has already given Technoblade supplies. He had also written a book to Tommy wherein he stated he didn’t support Schlatt due to his power-hungry ambitions, unlike Wilbur. After being seen as a villain in the last war, he didn’t want to become publicly involved especially through breaking a peace treaty, and instead offered to help from the shadows. He also gave Tommy his crossbow and some armour along with the book. While some may doubt his intentions as stated, I have reason to believe he’s being honest, as will be mentioned later. (Information taken directly from the book Tyrant, given to Tommy by Dream).

On Wilbur’s side, he’d just had his ‘then let’s be the bad guys’ moment after seeing Schlatt announce the festival, talking with Tommy on the way back to Pogtopia.

“We burn the place to the fucking ground!” - Wilbur 1:10:50

He starts making a plan:

“Okay, here’s the plan, right? Dream, Dream is on our side, Dream has TNT, Dream has everything, right? I say, we talk to Dream, and we ask him, very nicely, very kindly, ‘Dream, give us all the TNT you have’” - Wilbur 1:12:20

“The only reason Dream is working with us is because of the fact that we are the enemies of his enemies! That’s it! That’s all that joins... this!” - Wilbur, to Tommy 1:14:30

I feel a need to note here, that anything Wilbur says to Tommy about their allies shouldn’t be taken at face value: at this point his paranoia has begun clouding his view, as he also distrusts Tubbo, and later even doubts Tommy.

“Everyone who’s claiming to be on our side, they’re lying to us! Tubbo? he’s lying to you man! He would drop us at the second he realises that we’re not in the lead anymore!” - Wilbur, to Tommy 1:16:10

He has no proof to back up his claim about Dream, and personally I’m inclined to not believe his claim, seeing as Dream previously had no issue with L’Manberg after the peace treaty.

After some tunnel shenanigans happen, Wilbur asks Dream to talk privately: the conversation starts at 1:31:30

The conversation begins with Wilbur informing Dream about the festival, which he was previously unaware of. Dream laughs at the mention of the festival being a celebration of democracy, but whether this is because of his disdain for Schlatt or a personal dislike of democracy is unclear (question for another time: is c!Dream a monarchist? The SMP is technically ruled by a king after all, but they fulfil more of a neutral peacekeeping role in general. Theocracy???).

Wilbur then asks Dream if he thinks he and Tommy are the bad guys in the situation, and like Tommy, he disagrees. Wilbur proceeds to explain his reasoning, and then asks Dream what he thinks.

“I think that sometimes, a ruler is unfit, and that causes problems” - Dream 1:32:50

Wilbur then starts trying to persuade Dream to help him.

“Dream, I think you have vested interest though, I think that you would enjoy there to be conflict between Manberg and Pogtopia. And you know what, I’m here to facilitate that!” - Wilbur 1:33:00

Dream immediately denies this, and returns to talking about Schlatt.

“I don’t— Jschlatts a little bit more ambitious than you I’d say” - Dream 1:33:20

Note that at this point, Tommy meets up with Wilbur but is not in vc. Ignoring what Dream has just said, Wilbur makes his pitch:

“Dream, Dream, let me be your vassal! Dream, I understand you have a lot of TNT?” - Wilbur 1:33:25

Dream confirms that he has TNT.

“Dream, I want to be your vassal, I want to set this up, I want to rig the city” - Wilbur 1:33:40

This is the first time Wilbur mentions using the TNT to destroy L’Manberg. I also want to point out the use of the term ‘vassal’ here, as while the line itself is very well known, I’ve yet to see someone point out the relevant definition here is ‘a person or country in a subordinate position to another’ which you might notice, isn’t really the case here. Wilbur is asking Dream to supply him with something, there’s nothing subordinate about it. It could be that he’s implying that he’ll owe Dream for the favour, or it could be him seeing it as ‘helping’ Dream by destroying L’Manberg, as we’ve established his paranoia is leading him to see his allies in a negative light.

The two decide to meet at Pogtopia, and Tommy speaks up for the first time in the conversation.

“Dream, Dream don’t give it to him. It’s not right!”- Tommy

“Tommy it’s too... I have to.” - Dream 1:33:50 (overlapping)

‘I have to’ is an interesting line, and I’m assuming he’s referring to the promise he made to assist Pogtopia by supplying them. It does highlight how, at this point in time, Dream still seems hesitant about the plan.

Wilbur then starts talking to Dream but abruptly switches to talking to Tommy instead.

“Dream, I appreciate ... cause you see Tommy, the thing you’re not understanding is Dream only gave you that gear so that you could cause this conflict! You see, this is what it’s all about, Dream doesn’t want us to win! Dream just wants both Pogtopia and Manberg to be weak! [...] and Dream I’m not scolding you on this, it’s smart, you’re smart..” - Wilbur 1:34:00

To clarify my stance on this to people who are newer to the fandom, during Pogtopia, Dream and Tommy were actually on good, even friendly terms. It’s not until Dream joined Manberg that they became enemies again. Personally, I see this as Wilbur trying to make Tommy distrust Dream just as he did with Tubbo, although interpretations may differ. Wilbur complimenting Dream can be seen as trying to get on his good side and/or trying to persuade Dream that he wants to help Wilbur with the TNT.

“I’m here to help you, I’m here to weaken both of us!” - Wilbur 1:34:25

Dream then gets a chance to speak.

“I do want Pogtopia and Manberg to be nothing more, and I want L’Manberg to be... something” - Dream 1:34:40

Tommy asks why he wants L’Manberg back after he fought against them over it before.

“Schlatt is ambitious, and that’s a bad thing. He wants power, he wants land, he wants to expand. You having your own little server [...] that’s fine by me!” - Dream 1:34:55

Here Dream claims that due to Schlatt being power hungry he stands against him, but didn’t have an issue with L’Manberg just existing. I’m inclined to believe this claim, as it matches up with his actions in between the war and the elections. He also claims to have had a change of heart about L’Manberg, which again, seems to line up with his actions.

Wilbur then lets out a very evil sounding laugh, very melodramatic, I applaud cc!Wilbur for it. He then says something that I think is extremely important to this analysis, and part of why I made it in the first place.

“Dream, this has made me ambitious! If I’m taking power again I will be ambitious! Let me blow it up, let me destroy it all!” - Wilbur 1:35:15

Now considering what both Wilbur and Dream have been saying, there a very obvious conclusion you can come too here: Wilbur is claiming that he’d be just as bad as Schlatt if he was back in power, that there would be no getting the old L’Manberg back, that Dream would be better off helping his plan. Now obviously Wilbur isn’t evil— he’s paranoid, angry, and desperate— but this is what he claims to Dream, who’s knows he’s been willing to fight for L’Manberg before and has said he (Dream) wants to avoid fighting L’Manberg again. I know a lot of c!Wilbur fans get annoyed at people saying Wilbur manipulated Dream during Pogtopia, but you can’t deny that this moment specifically is manipulative: he’s specifically lying about his intentions to convince someone to help him. And it works! Dream arrives, and hands over the TNT to Wilbur.

Wilbur heads back to the entrance to Pogtopia, where Tommy holds him at bowpoint before Dream steps in, handing Wilbur a shield. Tommy talks about how they can rebuild L’Manberg rather than destroying it, but Wilbur laughs at it. Dream turns to leave.

“Dream, I will do you proud” - Wilbur 1:36:55

Dream offers to help him if he needs it, and Wilbur warns him about the festival. Dream leaves the game, marking the end of the conversation at 1:37:41.

When heading back into Pogtopia, Wilbur talks to chat about Dream being a ‘good guy’ but also repeating what he said before about Dream just wanting both sides to be weak.

Now that the main analysis is done, I did want to mention a few things that didn’t really fit within the main body for whatever reason: not enough evidence, may be biased etc. For one thing, I definitely noticed a shift in how Wilbur spoke to Dream, from initially just asking him for TNT to almost acting like the TNT was Dream’s idea. This could tie into the manipulation I noted, or it could just be a result of his paranoia causing him to misinterpret what Dream really wants. Or both! As I mentioned before, Wilbur’s narration can’t really be trusted because of this, but what we can do is compare actions and words: if what a person says their motives are lines up with how they act, then they’re probably being honest. There’s also the matter of context— Dream claiming to Eret that he’s always wanted everything to be Dream SMP territory when dethroning them doesn’t make much sense if you compare it to how he acted about L’Manberg after the war, at least until you realise he’s talking to the king of the Dream SMP and trying to play into what he thinks she wants— he even emphasise that them being able to take over after the war between Manberg and Pogtopia is only a possibility.

Anyway, this took a while but was fun to write, and hopefully even if you don’t agree with my personal interpretation of these events, looking at the quotes will hopefully be helpful for coming to your own conclusions! :D

[kitsu-katsu]

Why c!Wilbur blowing stuff up for shits and giggles as a child makes no sense for his character (and why that would reflect a lot more badly on c!Phil anyways if that were the case):

Warning: c!Phil critical ahead, if you don't like that, skip this post

Now, to those of you that decide to read this: Strap in folks! We've got a lot of ground to cover this from and a ton of quotes ahead!

1) Wilbur’s a pacifist through and through. He always preached words over weapons, only fought when attacked first, wanted to ignore a war until it went away, considered giving up his nation many times, etc. A few examples of quotes to show this thinking:

“Basically, we have such a lower opportunity here that we probably just need to accept the conditions of surrender, just so we can save any more bloodshed, any more destruction on our land. They’ve entrapped our land, they’ve set up bombs on our land, they’ve destroyed all our homes. To stop any more bloodshed, I feel I would be a bad general if I didn’t look for conditions of surrender.” - (Wilbur’s The Revolution is Coming: 30:32, 2nd Aug)

“Tommy, we need you alive. Tommy, this isn’t worth it. Tommy, your life is worth more than the revolution.” - (Wilbur’s The Revolution is Coming: 34:57:, 2nd Aug)

“What has made you do everything you’ve done up to this point?” (Quackity)

“That’s a- That’s a big question. Um. I guess it’s just protection for my people. I mean, I- I- I just want to see them thrive, and I want to see them safe.” (Alivebur)

- (Quackity’s Killing My Enemies: 1:03:02, 12th Apr)

“Look, do you know how long and how much blood was shed to get L’Manberg to the point it was at? You know what would happen if we manage to get L’Manberg back again? More blood would be shed, and we would be the illegitimate rulers of a nation.” - (Wilbur’s video Am I the Villain?: 18:52)

“We don’t win wars with battles and with armour. We win wars with our words, Tommy. We’re starting a revolution, not a war.” - (Wilbur’s The Wall: 4:54, 29th July)

“I’m not a fighter, I’m a writer.” - (Wilbur’s The Wall: 1:48:31, 29th July)

“Fighting is not necessary right now, Tommy.” - (Wilbur’s the election results: 43:42, 22nd Sep)

“Tommy, control yourself. Tommy, control yourself, it’s not worth it. Tommy, do not take your shot! He disrespected me, yes! But we’ve talked about this, Tommy…!” - (Wilbur’s techno and wilbur make cave better: 59:36, 23rd Sep)

2) The reason his thoughts about blowing it all up in Pogtopia even hit as hard, the reason all his allies were so shocked about him going through with it IS his pacifism first mindset (which has only been put second when he’s been attacked first and put in the defensive or in the case of his speech to Quackity after the political debate he genuinely thought, by the previous failure of his philosophy and the war trauma spurred on mainly by the FCR and Eret’s betrayal, that the only way to truly win respect and make a change in the world was through fighting and killing, which he was convinced of but was ultimately always too soft to actually go through with (note how he doesn’t kill anyone in the L’manburg explosion and how in the times during Pogtopia in which he declared he wanted people dead, he got second thoughts, regrets, retracted his statement or protected people with his actions):

“If you want to really help people, you’re gonna need power, Quackity. You can make a movement, you can make a resistance, right, you can go out and you can come back, and they’ll give you a ticker tape parade. They’ll cheer for you in the streets, but you will change nothing.” - (Quackity’s Killing My Enemies: 1:05:42, 12th Apr)

“If you have a revolution, everyone will hate you, you will sacrifice everything, and you will lose everything you’ve ever had, but you’ll come back and everything will be changed.” - (Quackity’s Killing My Enemies: 1:05:59, 12th Apr)

“And power isn’t gaining from diplomacy, and bureaucracy, and giant courthouses suspended in the sky, blah blah blah. It’s gained from swords, Quackity. It’s gained from blades, it’s gained from steel, iron.” - (Quackity’s Killing My Enemies: 1:06:19, 12th Apr)

“We blow up the entire fucking place to kingdom come. I want no survivors. God help whoever’s caught in the fucking crossfire.” - (Wilbur’s video, Am I The Villain?: 17:52)

“And, I know you’re scared, Tommy, I understand you’re scared. And it’s scary, it’s scary, Tommy, but do you know what? You know what? In a time like this, when a man has nothing to lose, do you know what that means? It means we can do what we want. We have a man on our side who literally rigged our nation with TNT. We can do the same to them. We can rig this festival with TNT. We can kill them all, Tommy. ” - (Wilbur’s who are you go away: 1:15:52, 8th Oct)

“Anyone caught in the crossfire is caught in the crossfire. That’s how it goes, you know? - (Wilbur’s who are you go away: 1:41:22, 8th Oct)

“Chat, do I wanna- Chat, do I wanna, do I wanna do it? I’m having second thoughts about the TNT. Chat, I’m having second thoughts about the TNT. Do I wanna kill these people? Seeing that they’re my friends.” - (Wilbur’s The Festival: 34:09, 16th Oct)

“Tommy, I’m getting second thoughts. These are my friends, I don’t- Do I- I don’t know if I wanna [inaudible].” - (Wilbur’s The Festival: 36:17, 16th Oct)

“Just, if you’re gonna kill anyone else, kill me. Don’t kill anyone else here.” - (Wilbur’s The Festival: 1:10:53, 16th Oct)

“You sounded like you were gonna murder another person. You sounded like you were gonna go for Niki.” - (Wilbur’s The Festival: 1:12:34, 16th Oct)

“Oh, yes, sorry, Niki, you missed that part. I was gonna blow up Manberg, I was gonna completely destroy it in a huge fireball. Look, Niki, come to Pogtopia, you’re safer here. You’re not gonna be hurt by anyone.” - (Wilbur’s The Festival: 1:17:59, 16th Oct)

“No you two can escape, I’ll be the… I’ll- I’ll- I’ll be… I’ll be trapped in here…” - (Wilbur’s Speedy Stream Festival What festival: 27:27, 17th Oct)

“I don’t, I don’t, I don’t want to kill you two. I don’t want you two to die.” - (Wilbur’s Speedy Stream Festival What festival: 28:53, 17th Oct)

3) He was inspired by Dream blowing up L’manburg first with Eret’s betrayal during the first revolution. He knew Dream wanted L’manburg out of the picture and had tried it before. It’s why he knew to immediately ask him for TNT, because either way, Dream would benefit from both side’s mutually assured destruction:

“Here’s the plan, right, Dream. Dream is on our side, Dream has TNT, Dream has everything, right. I say we talk to Dream, and we ask him very nicely, very kindly, ‘Dream, give us all the TNT you have’. ” - (Wilbur’s who are you go away: 1:12:22, 8th Oct)

“Remember, how he rigged L’Manberg, like ages ago, during the War? And then he detonated the TNT and destroyed the entire thing? We do that again, everyone, we blow up the entire fucking place to kingdom come.” - (Wilbur’s who are you go away: 1:12:36, 8th Oct)

“The only reason that Dream is working with us, is because of the fact that we are the enemies of his enemies! That’s it! That’s all that joins this!” - (Wilbur’s who are you go away: 1:14:35, 8th Oct)

“Dream, let me be your vassal. Dream, I understand you have a lot of TNT, a lot of the ol’ trinitrotoluene in your possession, don’t you? You do! Dream, I want to be your vassal, I want to set this up, I want to rig the city.” - (Wilbur’s who are you go away: 1:33:27, 8th Oct)

4) Wilbur hesitated a LOT with the detonation, wanted to be stopped, told people his plan in detail and was overall in a deep internal conflict about the whole thing (and didn’t blow it up once to not kill Tommy and Quackity too, this is also the moment in which his suicidal tendencies are the most clear in his lines before the 16th). Ultimately he decided to do it because he was suicidal and deeply suffering from mental health issues, believed himself to be the root of all bad in the server and by extension, L’manburg was too, and by that point his original view for L’manburg had been so twisted by Schlatt anyway that in his POV it’d only be used to hurt more people anyway:

“I- Look, rigging L’Manberg is not gonna help us get it back, I’m aware of that. But sometimes in order to feel comfortable and safe you have to be ready to give up the things that you’re worried you might lose. And in this case, I think I might lose it already.” - (Wilbur’s who are you go away: 1:17:57, 8th Oct)

“I know there’s a lot of people, Tommy! … I’m not telling you where the button is, man. … Tommy, it’s over that hill, it’s over that hill, right there!” - (Wilbur’s The Festival: 28:30, 16th Oct)

“Chat, do I wanna- Chat, do I wanna, do I wanna do it? I’m having second thoughts about the TNT. Chat, I’m having second thoughts about the TNT. Do I wanna kill these people? Seeing that they’re my friends.” - (Wilbur’s The Festival: 34:09, 16th Oct)

“Tommy, I’m getting second thoughts. These are my friends, I don’t- Do I- I don’t know if I wanna [inaudible].” - (Wilbur’s The Festival: 36:17, 16th Oct)

“But this is the opportunity- this is the opportunity. If I don’t blow it up now, when am I gonna blow it up?! When am I gonna blow it up, Tommy? But when do- when do we do-” - (Wilbur’s The Festival: 36:30, 16th Oct)

“If I don’t do it now, what happens if this is the only chance I get. Everyone’s in this close situation, I can do some proper damage. Look, this isn’t a- He needs a consequence for his actions, Schlatt does, he can’t just keep being handsome and powerful and strong all the time. He needs, he needs to be put down a peg.” - (Wilbur’s The Festival: 37:07, 16th Oct)

“I can still call off this whole detonating at the end of the speech, dude. I can call it off.” - (Wilbur’s The Festival: 38:24, 16th Oct)

“Should I show you where the TNT’s laced? ‘Cause in a, in a last ditch effort, we may need to destroy it by hand, okay? So, under the chair, where Schlatt sits, there’s about twenty pieces, right? And then going under, under the main area here, following this red line, there is TNT all the way, and then it jut- and then it- … It darts up here, and over to the dance floor, but it doesn’t touch the water.” - (Wilbur’s The Festival: 38:29, 16th Oct)

“I have to light it, I’ve got to light it, I’ve got to light it.” - (Wilbur’s The Festival: 1:08:17, 16th Oct)

“Yesterday I had the perfect opportunity to blow everything up and finally end it, you know. I had the perfect opportunity to finally blow up everything and end it and just completely save everyone, right, from the tyranny of Schlatt and the tyranny of the existence of Manberg and L’Manberg, right.” - (Wilbur’s Speedy Stream Festival What festival: 25:17, 17th Oct)

“Explain it to me! Give me a reason! Give me a reason!” - (Wilbur’s Speedy Stream Festival What festival: 26:50, 17th Oct)

“Who else is it gonna hurt?! It’s gonna hurt Schlatt, Manberg, and-” - (Wilbur’s Speedy Stream Festival What festival: 26:55, 17th Oct)

“Why did I bring- I should have just done it. I’m such a fucking showman. I should have just done it.” - (Wilbur’s Speedy Stream Festival What festival: 27:18, 17th Oct)

“No you two can escape, I’ll be the… I’ll- I’ll- I’ll be… I’ll be trapped in here…” - (Wilbur’s Speedy Stream Festival What festival: 27:27, 17th Oct)

“I just- I just want to f… I just wanna end it, I wanna end it. I wanna press that button, man.” - (Wilbur’s Speedy Stream Festival What festival: 28:08, 17th Oct)

“I don’t, I don’t, I don’t want to kill you two. I don’t want you two to die.” - (Wilbur’s Speedy Stream Festival What festival: 28:53, 17th Oct)

“Ohh, fuck you! Fuck you, man! Why do you make it so hard?! I should have just- I’m such a fucking showman.” - (Wilbur’s Speedy Stream Festival What festival: 29:29, 17th Oct)

“Tommy, we’ve tried my ideas. I’m willing to listen to you. I’m gonna follow you, Tommy. Whatever you think is gonna be the best way of taking down Schlatt, we’ll do it. We’ve tried my ideas.” - (Wilbur’s Speedy Stream Festival What festival: 32:01, 17th Oct)

“My L’Manberg. My L’Manberg. As long- As long as I know the button is here… as long as I know. As long as I know the button is here. It’s just not today. I just need to know that it’s there for a fall-back. I need to know it’s there.” - (Wilbur’s Speedy Stream Festival What festival: 33:46, 17th Oct)

“I’ve been hasty. But the fact that I know it’s there, and I can just stroke my right mouse button, that’s all I need. As long as I know it’s there.” - (Wilbur’s Speedy Stream Festival What festival: 34:27, 17th Oct)

“You’ve convinced me, I don’t wanna go straight to Plan B, if Plan A fails.” - (Wilbur’s Speedy Stream Festival What festival: 39:02, 17th Oct)

“Look, Tommy, at the end of the day, if this doesn’t go well, I’m gonna blow the place to smithereens. The place will be gone, I’m gonna detonate it and blow it to smithereens, right, if this doesn’t go well. But it will go well…! … ‘Cause it’s literally- there’s no one on Schlatt’s side.” - (Wilbur’s smithereens: 21:00, 16th Nov)

“But none of them have the same anticipatory love of what they’re doing, unlike us. Everyone on our side is fighting for something we’ve loved, and had for ages, right. That’s why we’re gonna win, and that’s why you shouldn’t be afraid. And yes, the whole place is rigged.” - (Wilbur’s smithereens: 21:38, 16th Nov)

“I could, I really could, that’s the thing. That’s the bit that I like. It’s the bit that makes me smile the most is the fact that I definitely could.” - (Wilbur’s smithereens: 26:28, 16th Nov)

“Chekhov’s Gun. Chekhov’s Gun. I’ll be honest with you, chat, I’ve been wondering this whole time if it still works. I’ve been thinking to myself does it still- ‘Cause I fixed it up for today.” - (Wilbur’s smithereens: 1:11:36, 16th Nov)

“Phil, I’m always so close to pressing this button, Phil! I have been here, like seven or eight times I have been here… Seven or eight times” - (Wilbur’s smithereens: 1:14:56, 16th Nov)

“Phil, I’ve been here here so many times.” - (Wilbur’s smithereens: 1:15:13, 16th Nov)

“I don’t even know if it works anymore, Phil. I don’t even know if the button works. I could, I could… press it, and it might-” (Wilbur’s smithereens: 1:15:29, 16th Nov)

5) The one time anything about Wilbur using TNT while young (and here the age isn't as clearly implied as in Phil's thing, this could very well be more of teen Wilbur than kid Wilbur) is mentioned in the actual text is this one maybe-canon-maybe-not-so-canon-anymore line:

“Tommy, have you heard of TNT duplication? The flying machines that dup TNT? Phil taught me about them. He taught me about them- I’m sure he wouldn’t have taught me them if he knew what I was gonna do with them. But, he did teach me about them. … They were very useful, in this.” - (Wilbur’s The Festival: 11:30, 16th Oct)

Now let’s pretend that headcanon makes any sense and that yeah, Wilbur totally just enjoyed building shit to detonate and said tendency encouraged in childhood just up and carried into adulthood and manifested as him internally going “I must blow up this thing I made because that’s what I do” and let’s pretend that he didn’t have a big ass internal conflict about it.

Ok, so Phil said that Wilbur blew stuff up when little, so he’d have connected it to the button room. Now think for a moment: How does that reflect on Phil as a parent? Let’s forget about everything else for this one moment (and believe me, I’ve got no shortage of stuff to critique c!Phil on in regards to his relation with c!Wilbur) and just focus on this one action. A man freely lets his son use TNT to blow up some random stuff presumably made out of toys. Just a little kid playing with TNT, yup, that’s his boy. And it was to such a degree that the same man just went “Oh yeah! It’s totally the blowing shit up thing!” in a fraction of a second after seeing the button… And then yeah, saw all of the hesitation, the breakdown, the struggle, the wishes to die and impaled him with a sword, but we can go deeper into those aspects in another post

Then Phil tried to make it better by saying to chat that all kids just break stuff apart, more implying that little Wilbur wasn’t actually using explosives which… makes the whole thing even dumber, ngl, because at that point c!Phil is just saying “Oh yeah, he knocked over his lego houses when he was four, so when I saw that button I immediately went ‘Oh, of course! He rigged the place! What an obvious connection!’”. You see what I’m getting at?

TLDR: It doesn’t fit with canon and even if we shove it in with its implications, then c!Phil is just an idiot, whether it be from letting his kid freely play with TNT to such a degree that he deduces where his most drastic measure resulting from trauma and breakdowns is going just by seeing the button OR whether it be from him connecting dots where there are none if he tries to save his skin as a father and just say “Oh yeah, no, who didn’t knock over stuff as a kid, what do you mean?” not realizing that… exactly… who didn’t…. so it wouldn’t connect with the button room at all

[honalele]

dsmp wilbur, techno, and dream

c!dream’s fear is being dead. he will sit in prison for months, he will go through mass amounts of torture for months, he will never tell anyone else how the revival book works. he will do all of this to avoid dying.

c!dream’s want is for the server to be “one big happy family” and he has decided that c!tommy is a threat to that goal, hence the obsession and abuse he puts on him.

c!dream is obviously not mentally stable at all. he has warped views of reality, control, and self which makes him very paranoid. he doesn’t believe that he’s a bad guy, and i don’t think he ever will.

c!wilbur’s fear is losing c!tommy, both in the sense of watching c!tommy die, and losing his friendship with him. c!wilbur believes that becoming friends with c!dream will keep c!tommy alive. c!wilbur will also continue to guilt trip c!tommy in order to maintain their friendship.

c!wilbur wants to have separation. he wants people to be able to fight for their own values. he wants a winner to come out on top. and from what we’ve seen in the past, he desperately wants to be on the winning side, otherwise what’s the point of living?

c!wilbur is also not mentally stable. despite wanting to win, all of his motivation comes from feeling inferior. he loves being the underdog, and this will always lead him to self sabotage.

c!techno’s fear is becoming useless. he doesn’t like what government does to people and he values anarchy. but he finds it difficult to trust people and build healthy relationships. he enjoys feeling needed by others, which aligns his fears with his wants.

c!techno wants to be needed. it’s why the voices ask for blood. it’s why he seeks out violence. it’s why he will avoid peace at every turn. he will always be preparing for the next war. he will never let his guard down.

c!techno is much more mentally healthy compared to c!dream and c!wilbur, however he still has his own issues. the voices must cause him constant stress and the fear of becoming worthless to someone hinders his relationships and makes him weary to trust people. however, c!phil has become a good friend of c!techno’s, so he has some really nice support there.

i just wanted to do a quick little analysis on these characters’ fears, wants, and mental states because they’re the hardest characters for me to read. i can also see these three teaming up in the near future so i wanted to lay out the basics of their characters to see if there would be any interesting conflicts. but, despite any conflict, i think that these characters are drawn to one another.

c!wilbur is drawn to c!dream because he knows that he can revive c!tommy if needed and based on my analysis, he sees c!dream like himself, as an underdog.

c!dream revived c!wilbur, not because he really cared for him, but because it was a way for c!dream to control c!tommy without having to actually be there. a relationship with c!wilbur means he can get close to c!tommy.

c!dream and c!techno have “the favor” and they are both willing to do whatever needs to be done in order to get their end of the deal, ie. c!techno perpetuates violence and c!dream avoids death (at least i think that’s where they’re going with this).

c!techno values c!wilbur’s charisma and spite to rally people together in order to “fight for a cause” and c!wilbur will use c!techno’s willingness to “fight the man” whenever necessary, making their relationship a byproduct of war.

now where have these three characters been since doomsday? well, c!wilbur has been dead, c!dream has been in prison, and c!techno has been living in the isolated snow commune. the absence of these characters from the server has allowed the rise of kinoko kingdom, las nevadas, and snowchester. (not mentioning the eggpire because it is no longer valid since the red banquet) their absence has also given some characters time to grow and change, while others remain sort of paused. i don’t think it’s a coincidence that c!dream revived c!wilbur, or that c!techno got stuck in the prison with him, or that both c!wilbur and c!techno have developed a sort of mentorship with c!ranboo. though they’ve been apart, their stories are coming together and i think there’s a big possibility that they will not only cross paths soon, but become a team.

the only question now is what were those blueprints for?

[wonda-cat]

Some Thoughts on Tommy’s most recent stream (4/29)

(For the record, this isn’t going to be like my other formal analyses. I’m genuinely just ranting here, possibly unedited too. I’m only referring to the characters, unless stated otherwise.

Also obvious warning, this will be fairly negative/critical of the DSMP’s writing, so scroll past if that might bother you. I tend to criticize the media I love, so this is just par for the course in my case.)

Let’s start off with—

The Things I Liked

All of the comedy at the beginning of the stream was wonderful. Ghostbur was incredibly endearing and entertaining as usual, as well as the moments between bench trio. Tommy’s change of plans made sense and the entire journey through the prison was tense and fun to watch. As well as the moment Tommy got caught (it was inevitable.) 

It goes without stating, but cc!Wilbur and cc!Tommy’s acting was wonderful—they knocked it out of the park. I liked the little moments of Tommy calming Ghostbur down as Sam screamed at him. I also loved Wilbur's speech about his time in the afterlife when bench trio found him. 

As well as the moment with Wilbur admiring the sky and calling it ‘his sunrise.’ I’m also glad that the afterlife was explained to be caused by the Revival Book’s existence and not some general eternal torture every character will be sentenced to regardless of anything they did in life. 

But, sadly, that’s about where I stop and have to go into what I didn’t like as much, which is—

Everything Else

I’ll be talking about my major gripes with this particular stream in later bullet points down the line, but for now I’ll bring up the little things that annoyed me. This is all basically nit-picking and isn’t as awful or badly written as some of the others I’ll be discussing later. 

First off, Why is Ranboo There? In the stream before this one, Tommy had Tubbo promise to not tell anyone else about their plan. Did he just decide to tell Ranboo anyway? Why? What was the point of asking him to keep it secret if it didn’t matter? 

Adding to this, Tubbo and Ranboo were rather unnecessary for any of the other scenes that took place. They didn’t have any meaningful conversations with Tommy besides Ranboo asking why he was dreading Wilbur’s revival so much, as well as Wilbur’s comments to Tubbo about him being president. But other than that they have little to no notable speaking lines. 

They don’t Do Anything? Sure, they’re nice to have present so Tommy can vent to someone else and find comfort but, in the end, Ranboo was oddly angry and accusatory with Tommy and Tubbo was practically absent from the scene. The impression I got from Tommy and Tubbo’s conversation in the previous stream implied that Tubbo would be serving a larger role as a distraction, but I guess they changed gears or something? 

Then we have Ghostbur’s involvement, which, yeah, makes sense. Tommy, Tubbo, and Ranboo are not allowed inside the prison, so it’s best to find someone else who can get in without suspicion. But my first assumption, upon seeing Ghostbur with the group was, “Oh, he’s gonna go in there and Dream’s gonna use him to revive Wilbur. That’s the only reason why Ghostbur is here and not anyone else, who would also be willing to kill Dream. It’s not like they’re in short supply right now.”

And I ended up being right, which only frustrated me more. I wanted something unexpected. Something new. Something interesting. Yet, I got the most predictable outcome instead—Tommy fails, Wilbur is revived. 

Next, we have another big serving of ‘Tommy gets blamed for things he has no control over’ part 241. I am so, so sick of characters getting unreasonably mad at and blaming Tommy for anything and everything. It’s not new, it’s not interesting, it’s not fun. It’s just miserable. 

It is,, awful. And it’s highkey frustrating. I refuse to sit through another arc of Tommy being endlessly hurt and blamed for stuff he didn’t do or cannot control. Pick a new event in the plot. 

Try something out of left field. Do something, anything different to this. I’m begging you. 

Now, we get into the major writing pitfalls and shortcomings. Starting with—

We Need to Talk About Sam

I have no idea what is going on with Sam’s character right now. It is so genuinely confusing. I have no clue why Sam reacted the way he did to Tommy because it just doesn’t make any sense. Sam’s entire inner conflict is about him trying to cultivate and protect his humanity and morality while upkeeping a strict, closed-off demeanor.

He follows the rules, even if it hurts the people he loves. Even if these codes force him into a position to be unethical. He feels it is his responsibility should anything go wrong or if Dream escapes, because it puts others in danger.

His strict approach got Tommy killed, and it also took a life and an arm from Ponk. Both of these people are precious to him. So why on earth would he threaten to kill Tommy when, in their last interaction, he was glad he was alive—after he promised to never let something like that happen again?

He respected Tommy’s wishes to stay away from him, and rather politely too. Why would he then threaten to kill him just after weeks of saying Tommy’s death was his biggest regret? That’s not even touching on Sam saying, “This is why I let you die,” as well as blaming Tommy for something that was directly a result of his own refusal to act.

Why didn’t he have Ghostbur also hitch a ride on the same platform with Tommy? Why did he even let Ghostbur into the prison in the first place if he:

A.) Told Ranboo he wasn’t going to let anyone in there after what happened to Tommy.

B.) Also wouldn’t let people in lest they find out about Quackity’s plan.

C.) Couldn’t even kill Ghostbur because he’s incorporeal and thus cannot fully upkeep the contracts he is signing.

There’s also the issue of Sam breaking the rules he abides by when he decided to not kill Tommy after he snuck into the prison, despite it being in the contract. Why is it different now? He went against his own protocol but was also following it by refusing to let Ghostbur come back to the other platform?

Why does Sam refuse to listen to Tommy? Their argument is mind-numbingly ridiculous. Sam refuses to hurt Dream, despite him only being alive because Sam claimed Tommy wanted him alive.

But now Tommy is there, begging Sam to let him kill Dream, and Sam just goes, “No. We’re not killing Dream.” Fucking why??? Sam! You said you wanted to kill Dream at least four times by now! Maybe more!

You were on your way to do it with Quackity and the only thing that stopped you was your promise to Tommy. But now Tommy’s here, telling you to kill Dream and you fucking won’t???? I am absolutely baffled.

No matter how you spin it, it makes no fucking sense. However, if I tried,,, I could possibly come up with a reason or two. Maybe Dream is blackmailing him. Maybe Quackity is forcing him to keep Dream alive until he can get the info he needs (even though,,, why would he trust Quackity over Tommy, who he’s outwardly stated he trusts just as much, if not more?)

It feels like these plots are dancing around each other, trying to keep up this faux sense of conflict that doesn’t exist. But, here’s the thing, contrived conflict is never compelling. I can’t overstate it enough.

Dream’s Plan is Complete Nonsense

The method to revive Wilbur makes Dream seem even more short-sighted than I remember commenting on, during the stream where Tommy was brought back to life. He told Tommy that his plan was to test the book to see if it worked (which, okay fine, I can buy this.) But then he says all along he was planning to revive Wilbur in order to break out of prison, which is ???? This is baffling if he needed Ghostbur in order to pull this off. 

Which,,, I can’t even begin to explain how ridiculous it is that Dream’s entire plan hitched on not only the book working on people to begin with (which he tested on Tommy,,, for some reason, even though he would’ve lost his ‘favorite toy’ if he fucked it up. Which,, why even take that chance in the first place? there are other visitors he could’ve tried this with, surely. Like Sapnap and Bad,,) and it also relied on Ghostbur voluntarily going into the prison just to visit Dream?? And if he didn’t need Ghostbur after all, then why didn’t he bring Wilbur back weeks ago? 

That’s not even getting into the issue of Dream assuming that Wilbur, once brought back, would: 

A.) Want to be alive in the first place.

B.) Actually be willing to help Dream, instead of telling him to fuck off.

C.) Be even slightly capable of helping him at all when he has no allies, no PVP skill, no weapons, no armor, and no knowledge of the prison or its innerworkings. 

Why are the current DSMP writers so committed to making me think Dream is a fucking idiot? I don’t enjoy this. I used to like his character and think he was smart. Stop. 

ALSO, why did Tommy or Tubbo or Ranboo not think of the possibility that Ghostbur could very well be necessary to revive Wilbur? Why did that not cross any of their minds? It was the first thing I thought of when I saw him.

Another big thing that irks me is Tommy and Sam saying they saw Dream physically holding the Revival Book, which,,, how? Why? Dream said in previous streams that he burned the book and that was entirely the thing that kept him from being killed outright. If there was a book still in existence, did he hide it somehow? 

How did Quackity not find it? Why did Sam not take it from him when he was first arrested?? What? 

Also how the fuck did Dream kill a ghost?? They’re incorporeal? How does he not need the body to perform necromancy? That seems almost redundant. 

Also it took a matter of seconds to perform? It took,,, ?? nothing but words and sheer willpower to bring someone back to life? Why does it seem so easy? My mans just,, uses his vibes to bring people back from the dead??? 

Unless the book has instructions regarding that or has a proportional price in order to use, then I’d be more forgiving. But I’m guessing it doesn’t have too steep a cost if Dream could offer Tommy immortality despite that. But I’m sure we’ll get more information on this once Quackity (inevitably) gets his hands on the book. Hopefully… 

Which brings me to my last point—

Wilbur’s Revival (Derogatory)

Since the Revival Book was introduced, I have been actively dreading Wilbur being revived. It is the most predictable, low-hanging fruit of a plotline I could possibly conceive of. I understand that he’s a fan-favorite with a large audience (I love Wilbur more than you’d expect. cc!Wilbur is actually the reason I got into the DSMP in the first place), but there are other characters who could be developed more—utilized more. 

Unpopular opinion, I know, but I am just so incredibly unenthused about this plot development. In fact, I’d almost go so far as to say hate it. 

The Revival Book in and of itself is my least favorite thing the DSMP has ever introduced. It is a lack of consequences simplified. It’s also a lack of commitment to those mortal consequences. 

It is a ‘get out of jail free’ card for when they kill off a character and don’t want to deal with the hole that character will leave behind. Or a way to work around the reason they shouldn’t kill Dream on the spot. 

With Wilbur back again, I no longer feel compelled by his arc the way I used to. There is nothing to really leave a lasting impact anymore. Of course, there was a cater where L’Manburg once stood, but that was dug even deeper later on. You can’t make the death of a friend, of a loved one, worse than it is. It is death. 

The thing I found extremely interesting about Wilbur’s death is the way the other characters portrayed loss. It has consistently been the thing that was most comforting to me, oddly enough. When people die, there will always be loose ends. 

There will be holes left behind and things left unsaid. An unfulfilled promise. A forgotten relationship. A hollow memory.

What I always found compelling was the way Tommy and Fundy and Niki took this mutual loss and had to live with it. How they had to come to terms with the fact that Wilbur was gone and he wasn’t coming back. That they had to make peace with his memory, his legacy, and their connection to him. 

That they’d miss him and love him or hate him and try to forget him. It is a tragedy that someone like Wilbur wanted to die for so long, and in the end, he did. Because in reality, the people you love will die. 

There may be someone in your life that leaves you behind and all you’re left with is the broken pieces. And it is how these characters move on that brings me bittersweet company as someone who’s lost a lot of people. There is nothing more irritating than a story going back on its establishments—to have their cake and eat it too. 

All I want is the bare minimum—a story with narrative stakes and consequences.

The only way I could ever see myself enjoying this plot development is if Wilbur has a redemption arc and attempts to make amends with Tommy, Fundy, Niki, and Eret. OR if he aids in Dream’s downfall in some way and enjoys the simple realities of life and wants to live for the sake of living. I’d find that at least new and somewhat interesting. 

But if he’s just here to be a moustache toiling villain (or somehow worse than after his previous downward spiral), when the market is already so deeply oversaturated with antagonists, then I will probably drop the series altogether. 

Hopefully it doesn’t come to that because I love the Dream SMP and I want to keep loving it for as long as I can. 

I will hold onto more reasons to stay, so long as they keep giving them to me.

[relaxxattack]

sending this here bc i’m scared of it coming off wrong and i genuinely mean no disrespect to any artists as i’m sure it’s unintentional- so i get that a large part of the dsmp is character design, and that’s really cool!! but i think people need to be a little more mindful of the fact that like. these characters aren’t completely original ones from a podcast, or a cartoon, they’re extremely tied to the streamer that plays them, especially the ones with human skins that aren’t faceless. c!wilbur art is usually drawn to look exactly like cc!wilbur, c!tommy is usually drawn to look exactly like cc!tommy, etc (they might be more stylized w wings or horns or such, but you get what i mean). their proportions usually mirror the streamer’s proportions.

when people draw c!tubbo, though, some more over-exaggerated or cartoony styles (which aren’t inherently bad!!) tend to,,,squish him down, if that’s the right word? he’s drawn really short, and really round (especially with his puffy coat)– and i do get it! if you like playing around with shapes, especially in duo or trio art, it makes sense to play into the height difference, or have soft, round shapes to contrast hard, sharp ones and emphasize personality, but you again have to remember that c!tubbo is not some completely original character from a series. he’s intrinsically tied to cc!tubbo, and has even been regularly designed to include more of cc!tubbo’s traits over what is actually present in his mc skin. drawing art of c!tubbo is basically like saying to cc!tubbo “this is what i think a version of you looks like,” so people need to be really, really careful with how he’s portrayed. we know cc!tubbo has some confidence issues w himself, some of which seem to come from his appearance, so i just,,,do you get what i’m trying to say? especially because this kind of proportion shifting doesn’t really happen to anyone else either– if anything, they’ll be exaggerated to be even lankier. again, i’m not trying to attack any artists or anything!! it’s just,,something i’ve noticed, i guess.

while i understand where you're coming from-- i think going the opposite way would be bad as well. drawing tubbo sort of "perfect" looking could make him more self-conscious because he could feel he doesn't measure up.

in the end, we don't know his feelings on the matter unless he tells us, and we shouldn't assume. i also think making c!tubbo look very different from cc!tubbo is also a good thing because he then knows it's... not him.

basically, i strongly disagree, i really like all the different exaggerated designs. although i might have my own opinions about making tubbo too short (which i do!) i don't really care if someone else draws him like that.

/nm !!!

[dykesymmetry]

Hot take/rant time: I’m honestly not that big of a fan of saying “C!Phil is a bad father because he leaves his kids alone or he leaves them a lot” mainly because I wonder if C!Wilbur or C!Tommy would actually have a problem with that and my parents also tended to leave my siblings and I home alone as they went to work or whatever and personally I don’t think they’re bad for that, I was fine with it tbh. There’s not just ONE style of parenting and not all children are the same. In my opinion tbh.

Oh absolutely! Even if C!Tommy was actually his kid, C!Phil not constantly visiting him doesn't mean he's a bad parent, it means he's giving his kid some space! There's not really any exact ages for any of the characters, but Tommy is a teenager, and teenagers are usually not a huge fan of their parents constantly butting into their business. Tommy has constantly shown himself to be independent and that he doesn't want anyone's "pity help." Obviously his exile was a very traumatic experience, but no one other than Dream and Tommy (and maybe Sam? I'm not entirely caught up on that regard) knows what went down. Phil has no reason to assume Tommy has gone through anything that extreme, and now that he's decanonized the family dynamic, there's absolutely no reason for him to go out of his way to help Tommy.

As for C!Wilbur, he's an adult! He has his own son! Of course Phil's not constantly hanging around him, he has his own life. I've seen so many people suggest that Wilbur's decent into madness was in part due to childhood neglect, which makes no sense? Wilbur's trust issues arose slowly throughout the course of season 1; he didn't start L'Manburg as the same person as he ended as. As for Ghostbur, Phil spent his first month or so hanging out with him and looking after him! I can't imagine having a constant reminder of the son you killed following you around would be great for your mental health, but Phil goes out of his way to help him, even when he's obviously uncomfortable with the situation. Friend's death was regrettable, but Phil's entire motivation for doomsday was to save other people from Wilbur's fate.

TL:DR Phil is a supportive parent with an independent kid, and he's not obligated to be there for every single child on the server every second of the day!

[skystarchild123]

/rp /about characters not ccs /c!wilbur critical

I think something not enough people talk about when it comes to c!wilbur discourse is how he affected people. The community seems split down the middle between “he was always a villain who manipulated people! He’s always been evil!” and “he’s misunderstood. He did bad things but he’s not evil to the core. Don’t take what other characters say about him as gospel. They’re unreliable narrators!”

Now, I don’t agree with either sentiment here fully. I don’t think Wilbur was fully evil. He had a lot to deal with being a young hopeful leader of a nation forced into battle just to be free. He bottled up his issues, never fully explaining his struggles even to his closest companions like Tommy. He lied to his own father that he was doing well when in reality he was spiralling further and further. His views of the world became twisted due to his circumstances, his own actions and his flaws. He wasn’t always evil.

However, ignoring how negatively he impacted so many other characters is also the wrong way to go about viewing his character, in my opinion. Wilbur’s actions led to many people such as Tommy, Niki and Fundy receiving trauma that they still haven’t healed from. By (among other things) directly manipulating Tommy, constantly ignoring his own son or betraying Niki when she needed him most, whether he intended to do these things or not, he still hurt them badly. It’s completely in their right to choose not to forgive him, lash out or want to avoid him. Wilbur’s actions can be explained by his own trauma and spiral, however they do not excuse the pain and suffering he brought to so many other people on the server.

Wilbur hasn’t always been a villain. He hasn’t always been the ‘bad guy’. However, I think his actions post-revival are only cementing that he’s dangerous, especially to people he’s hurt. The way Tommy is falling back into his submissive easy-to-manipulate follower role again is quite frankly heartbreaking to watch, even more so during the recent Las Nevada’s stream where he was spoken over constantly and forced into an inferior position (Wilbur literally told him to stop building up to his level and remain on a lower one). Niki has been lost for so long without Wilbur, finally having found not only a home in the Syndicate but also a place to heal and grow past the trauma she faced due to his betrayal. Hearing that not only he’s back but he’s living right in the Syndicate’s usual meeting area is terrifying for her, bringing up bad memories of her past that she was trying to move on from.

Therefore, I think fans have full right to be critical of c!wilbur. Saying they should “just ignore” how other characters view him excuses how much he hurt said characters, whether he intended to or not. It doesn’t matter if he had good intentions or was too mentally distressed to realise the weight of his actions, at the end of the day he still hurt them and so far hasn’t taken responsibility for it. He’s claiming to have “moved on from his past” and “he’s a changed man” and all that, but he’s still hurting Tommy, still doesn’t care about Fundy (in the most recent stream he claimed to only care about Tommy, Tubbo and Jack Manifold) and I doubt Niki will accept just a quick-worded “I’m sorry” anymore. “I’m sorry” doesn’t cut it for the amount of trauma he’s caused. He may never truly be forgiven and that’s alright. Likewise, fans don’t have to forgive him for what he did to their favourite characters

This isn’t me calling him ‘pure evil incarnate’ or anything, it’s just an acknowledgement that his actions absolutely DO NOT have to be forgiven + he is still being harmful post-revival

[stellocchia]

hey, do you have some advice? i'm not really a niki apologist but i feel the intense urge to defend her pov. i dunno if its because of previous exp in their fandoms that just endlessly shit on girl characters or not or if its because i'm a girl who dislikes seeing a girl character's pov about her feelings and thoughts being used the way they are by the community. on both sides ofc because honestly i'm sick of both and idk what to do.

Well, I'm not really the biggest expert on c!Niki's character to be honest, but I do completely get where your frustration comes from. C!Niki from my understanding of her truly does get misunderstood A LOT and this latest debate is proof of it.

About her character:

Like, are there parts of her character I don't particularly like and think were badly executed? Yes. Honestly season 2 as a whole was a trainwreak for her character. Like, I understand that she was not acting rationally and that she's one of the characters who fell for c!Dream's propaganda during it (ending up convinced that Tommy was the source of all problems), but she was basically irrelevant that whole season. Beginning of season 3 isn't necessarily better. The team rocket arc mostly work because it showcases c!Niki's mentality and way of thinking quite well, but the resulotion of it felt way too abrupt and unearned to be honest.

THAT SAID, I don't think she's a bad character per se. I think that if you look at her narrative it's mostly consistent (except for the one problem I pointed out) and it works with the bigger narrative as well. It's an interesting show of the importance of attachments showing what happens when you loose them without getting rid of them yourself. She's honestly what c!Techno could have been if he was complex enough to be called a character: choosing to lash out with violence and choosing revenge actually making you miserable which fits in with the overarching message of the smp.

And now we get to my biggest crux when it comes to her character: how the fandom treats her.

The fervent apologist problem:

All the people who were supporting her for burning the L'Mantree or who were clamoring for her to kill c!Tommy or c!Wilbur actually completely misread her character and often only boil her down to her gender and nothing more. "She's cool and right in trying to kill a traumatized teen that never did anything wrong to her because she's a woman and that means she's a girlboss" type of mentality.

That's honestly such a disservice to her actual character, it's embarassing. C!Niki as a character is someone who has lived through a dictatorship and a war, she's someone who's opinions and words honestly never mattered (similarly to Fundy) and who chose kindness anyway. She chose to build the Secret City because she cared and wanted to help... but that didn't work out because it wouldn't be the smp if it did. She isolated herself from others burying herself in her work and slowly loosing her connections which made her feel even more abandoned which caused her to lash out. She's a tragic character and (crappy Syndicate connection aside) she's written well enough as one. She's not there to be people's Empowered Female Character that can do now wrong because she's barely a character, her gender is NOT what's important about her.

There is also the thing that a lot of people are uncomfortable with which is the tendency of the fandom to try and pit extremely traumatized characters against each other as if that would solve anything ever and as if that would serve any purpouse aside from sending a very bad message. They do it with c!Tubbo and c!Tommy, constantly trying to make their friendship out to be this horribly unhealthy thing when it's not and they're doing it now with c!Niki and c!Wilbur and it's uncomfortable.

c!Niki is her own character, stop making her story about c!Wilbur:

Now the diametrically opposite problem which I've seen a ton of possibly because I follow a ton of c!Wilbur apologists is people making her story about c!Wilbur.

I've seen this even more after the last stream which honestly said nothing about c!Wilbur. The whole stream was about c!Niki and HER view of the world, the way SHE thinks and the way SHE copes with trauma. C!Wilbur was the focus of her anger only in name because truly the focus was an unholy amalgamation of everything bad that ever happened to her. It wasn't good characterization for c!Wilbur because it wasn't supposed to be. And YET most of the analysis on that stream that I've seen was about HIM. About how none of what she says should matter for our perception of his character, about the fact that he did care, about: "but look at everything he did for her", about the fact that he too is hurt and spiraling about everything BUT HER.

And I get it really, it's annoying to see your favourite character get mischaracterized and see so many people advocate someone else hurting them or killing them (though with c!Tommy being my fave I'm a bit desensitized to it by now. It's really an everyday occurence for us), it's worrying and annoying and I get that. But this stream was not about him and they made it about him. They made it so c!Niki anjoyers have to sift through a shitton of drama just so they can maybe find something on the stream that's about HER and that honestly sucks. Heck, the closest I could find to it was people condescedingly going "punching c!Wilbur would not help c!Niki heal" and I'm just here like: "yeah no shit Sherlock! Can we talk about how she casually mentioned throwing herself off her own buildings and starving herself now? Because that's FAR more interesting honestly".

I think the biggest problem here is people on both sides not understanding that, while c!Niki's story seems to heavily involve c!Wilbur in name that's not actually the case, especially since her story far outlasted his. Her problems won't be all solved by punching him NOR by talking to him and solving their issues because that means assuming that her problems are, in fact, all originated from him. They aren't. They could go back to be friends and nothing would be resolved (and that's without even considering that c!Wilbur is not someone healthy to have around at the moment) because c!Niki's problems come from her tendency to isolate herself and slowly but surely chip away at her own systems of support. Basically she needs therapy and to possibly re-establish her connections to people who aren't, you know, extremely violent war criminals with no capacity for introspection.