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beautifulpersonpeach · 2 years ago

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Repost: Ask on BTS Paving the Way

Anonymous: Hey bpp. You talked a little bit about the 'BTS paved the way' discourse on your pinned post but I'm curious to see - read? lol - more on your thoughts about it. If youve talked about it before, can you pls link? Since you might not want to discuss/rehash this at all lol. I got curious because this discourse seems neverending and i just watched a yt video essay abt it. Imo, both sides of the spectrum - army and kpop stans -seems to be missing each other's points. Like, i think a lot of kpop stans havent paid attention to what bts have contributed to kpop and theyve dismissed armys arguments entirely and i think a lot of armys havent been into kpop and kpop history to definitively say the stuff I've seen them saying. A lot of the arguments and statements are very inflammatory too and while I agree with what armys are saying, the language they use isnt going to make kpop stans listen - i mean, the ones who arent blinded by their hate for bts/army anyway lol like a lot of kpop stans think when army say bts paved the way/bts popularized kpop, they always think army mean popularized it in the west. When we have receipts of them doing spectacularly globally, especially in places like india where they seem to have exploded since dynamite. Theyve also broken a lot of records in japan, where kpop is already popular but still seem to have a lot of trouble penetrating mainstream bec theyre very insular. They also think that we mean 'first to xxx', which isnt really what we mean at all. And a lot of army seem to dismiss what older kpop groups have achieved too and just like to prop up bts while putting down other groups and dismissing what theyve achieved for the genre. I just think since a lot of armys are in kpop only for bts -same tbh - we tend to be ignorant of the genre as a whole, which isnt good bec we're always arguing x member is the best in the industry or even bts is carrying the industry on their backs, which dismisses a lot of great artists that are doing great work like solo artists like taemin. Like, I'm an army and I'm not a "stan" of any other kpop artists but the whole argument just makes me v v uncomfortable. I guess i still haven't adjusted to stan culture since i've never been a fan of any artists like i am of bts - to the point of joining the fandom and really immersing myself in it - so the intensity of it is still jarring to me. I know it happens with big western fandoms like taylor swifts too but i think i'm still old school when it comes to being a fan of a musician, you listen to the music, rave about it to friends and buy/stream the music and go about your day.

Hi Anon,

Anon, I sympathize completely and not to harp on you here, but my first instinct reading this was “who cares?” - this is generally how I feel about this topic whenever I see it, so not knocking you specifically here. And I’d just like to remind everyone there’s an active, senseless, and deadly war raging right now in Ukraine. Please donate and/or pray for Ukraine if you’re able to.

(And then there’s the leader of Stray Kids who is probably a bigger ARMY than me at this point)

This is not me dismissing the gripes of stans of 1st and 2nd generation groups (the usual suspects), this is me saying that what I’ve seen of this discourse is huge swarths of people engaging in an elaborate exercise in collectively missing the point. And yes I’m also referring to those splitting hairs over the semantics of what it means to pave a road. (Heaven help us). And you already allude to this in your ask, anon.

The phrase: 방법을 만들다 which is what a lot of Koreans have used to describe 'paving the way’, is colloquially used to mean 'chart a course’ or someone showing how something can be done.

If this were a normal conversation with normal people and not k-pop stans, it would be enough to point out that yes, BTS was not the first k-pop group to step foot outside Korea or in the US, but BTS is the one group that has gone farther than any k-pop group has before i.e. created the new path. It’s really that simple. BTS has become a household name globally without doing a single show at Coachella nor having any of the mediaplay seen for other groups that attempted to fully break into the US market. The fact that Korea’s military enlistment laws (which before BTS were enshrined as basically unchangeable) have been modified at least partly on their behalf (and for the benefit of any idol who meets the criteria) and that BTS is the first k-pop group to receive a Grammy nomination, has created a new tier, the highest one yet, of what is possible for k-pop artists.

BTS is the biggest group in the world. They rival Coldplay according to Coldplay. Before BTS, the reality is that this ambition was not even within the realm of possibility for much of k-pop. Even with BTS breaking the records and gaining the influence they have, k-pop is still considered to be niche in some circles, though there is undeniably more visibility and investment brought to the genre since BTS started snagging headlines. Some people still hope BTS will go the way of Psy and BoA who were a fad on the Western landscape for a minute then essentially faded into obscurity. But so far, that’s not what has happened, and everyone is paying attention to see what BTS is doing right, that perhaps other groups can emulate.

BTS won’t be the biggest group in the world forever, but the chances that the next biggest group is a k-pop group, is significantly higher now because of BTS.

La fin.

It’s true some ARMYs can be downright disgusting with how they throw around BTS’s accomplishments and sometimes ignore, dismiss, downplay, or just straight up shit on older groups who made the first moves into Western spheres, whenever this topic comes up.

But a part of me understands them. When BTS won the TSA award in 2017, it felt like hell to be on Twitter and I wasn’t even an ARMY at that point. I did a search through my old screenshots and found more than 15 k-pop fandoms spent weeks shitting non-stop on BTS and ARMYs about how useless it was to win at the BBMAs. It was a non-stop barrage of racism, xenophobia, misogyny, all the -isms you can think of related to POC musicians. Though of course BTS was not the first group to go to the US, all of a sudden, k-pop stans were convinced BTS had 'sold out’, abandoned their heritage and were pandering to 'white colonizers’ (sound familiar?). I started calling myself an ARMY the next year (2018) and as I’ve said already, I was reporting things almost constantly. It was hell.

You’re right this discourse seems never-ending because it is never-ending. Remember you’re dealing with k-pop stans who will argue with you that water isn’t wet if it means something positive for their group and some ARMYs are just as bad. Whenever I see people arguing about what paved the way I just mute that whole conversation. I sympathize with you feeling uncomfortable about this topic. I’d like to suggest doing what I currently do which is to not waste a single moment of a single day worrying about something that’s already obvious and settled. This particular discourse is the perfect example of a time sink imo, because really, who cares?

Originally posted: March 18th, 2022 1:35pm

#bts army #fandom #paving the way #bts paved the way #repost #kpop #kpop fandom

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love-n-pirates · 4 years ago

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The Harm of Accusing DNF of Queerbaiting + Ignoring The Issue

I like to keep the stuff on this blog lighthearted and jokey and I like to just reblog art but I did wanna make another post about the kaceytron issue but specifically the accusations of queerbaiting. This is gonna be a long post so sorry about that but this stream made me really mad and I’ve put a lot of time into gathering my thoughts and reviewing the VOD again to ensure my citations and interpretations are accurate.

TW for mentions of homophobia and ableism and please remember no matter how mad this might make you as well. Don’t send any hate. Best thing to do is unfollow, block and move on, she’s already had enough of a stage to perform on.

I’ve sectioned the post into summary and thoughts with pictures in case you only want to briefly look but I tried to be cohesive enough without going on too long so hopefully you’ll give the whole thing a read. Particularly a part I wrote at the end about her using Dream as a scapegoat (titled such) I just think it’s important to keep in mind. I watched this shit a second time so you don’t have to! It wrecked my head but I’m unhappy with how they spoke about queerbaiting, which is a serious issue in media, and wanted to talk openly about it here.

At first I did feel bad for her and thought that some of it was blown out of proportion, things that she could learn and grow from but ultimately she showed no remorse and after how she handled speaking with Dream and the immature nature of the whole ordeal I can’t feel entirely awful for her anymore.

This is the tweet that started it all. Kacey is in a very similar circle to Dream and George so it makes sense that Dream stans would find it. Ignoring the sort of humour behind the fact that so many assumed it was about them, it is a shitty tweet and seems kind of irrelevant. Ironically enough, she was getting called out moments later as stans brought up prior racist, ableist and homophobic issues with Kacey. Cancelled for a little more than breathing it seems.

One thing I wish had been asked from the get go was “Who is this tweet supposed to be about?” Kacey said it wasn’t even about them and that people were assuming incorrectly. She could’ve saved herself from the wrath of all the mc stans that came her way if she just said who it was really about. But she didn’t, which indicates to me that it definitely was about them. Not a great statement to make as a cishet woman, unprompted, especially when your influence often intertwines with theirs and when you share mutuals.

I did speak about queerbaiting before in reference to George just a couple posts down but it's blown up massively recently and I wanted to get detailed in a more general sense while using this event as a sort of case study.

For clarification I am a queer woman so I've had my fair run ins with queerbaity content etc. This is gonna be a detailed rundown of what was said with my own thoughts on it and some time stamps are included if you feel the need to see for yourself.

TL;DR

Dream and George are not the malicious straight boys they’re being made out to be. Saying they’re Queerbaiting is a disregard for their own emotional autonomy and they have been open with the fact they do not date nor do they use it for views. This argument is being used to shift focus from the important conversation which is Kaceytron’s use of slurs and arose from a stream that was made about Dream and forced him to be involved. She’s doing it for attention and should be ignored.

WHAT IS QUEERBAITING?

First of all, queer baiting is defined as "a marketing technique for fiction and entertainment in which creators hint at, but then do not actually depict, same-sex romance or other LGBTQ representation."

Technically twitch streams do fall under entertainment although I would argue that there is a certain nuance to this. We know that streamers often put on a certain persona when streaming (Tommy and Quackity are very loud in their own streams because that's their brand, then on their alts they are very laidback) but I would say that Dream and George are two streamers that are often just themselves while streaming. Particularly when they are together, it makes sense that a stream has a change in vibe when the cc is talking with a friend rather than focusing on talking to chat. Since these two usually only stream when they're with friends, we tend to see a more authentic side. We very much feel that they are real people showing their casual side. Their streams do not feel performative, this is part of their appeal.

Don’t forget that Kacey, a cishet woman, puts her streams under the LGBTQIA+ tag on Twitch. A tag only usually used if the streamer is LGBT.

SUMMARY OF EVENTS IN THE STREAM

Now, the stream. During the stream Kacey had her sister and two friends(both gay men, important for a later point) to back her up. Dream joined at about 3hr and 55 mins and already there was a distinct power imbalance in Kacey’s favour within the call. They titled it a debate yet it felt more like relentless high school bullying. They spoke for about an hour and the entire time, Kacey’s chat was spamming for her to ask about queerbaiting. Finally, one of her friends, Shaun, brought it up at about the 4hr and 43min mark.

Now, the reason I have a few issues with this is that it seems to me that he doesn’t really know what he’s talking about. You can see on his stream(in the background of Kacey’s) at one point that he has a massive text post from tumblr up that is accusing Dream of queerbaiting, saying that he gets to benefit from maintaining a queer audience but without the issues that come with being a gay man as he prefers to keep it ambiguous. That text post is super problematic, a creator is not there for your wish fulfillment or to be your idol. Also, there is a lot of assumption coming with saying he isn’t ostracized just because he doesn’t label himself. Instantly it’s clear that this post is the basis for the accusations that Shaun is making. I’m using accusation lightly here because over all I think the Shaun guy was very civil, (at least to Dream’s face) but the rest of the group were quite on the attack, particularly Kacey’s sister, Holly. (I’ll come back to her)

Shaun says that he feels that Dream and George, possibly unintentionally, are guilty of queerbaiting. Dream handled it well and said he would like to open that dialogue and asked Shaun to expand on what he means by queerbaiting and if he has any specific events that would be prevalent. Shaun says he has examples that he can pull up, which he never does, and continues to be very vague and general about it in saying that there’s been a “culture” going on for years that he’s noticed.

At this point, the other guy (I didn’t catch his name, sorry) jumps in and says there's a “clear flirtiness in attitude and undertones” which Dream agrees to. He points out that this is how he interacts with most friends, male and female, on the Dream SMP. He also points out that he acts like that with his friends both on and off camera and it’s not like he’s only approaching gay men and flirting with them. It’s clear that this line of joking is a constant in his friendships, where comfortable, and is never malicious. He even asks what their thoughts would be if he only did it with gay men and how that would differ, they don’t answer this question and the conversation moves on.

At the 4hr 46min mark is where Holly jumps in and tells of VERY personal experiences from Shaun’s past of him being tormented by straight guys in school, being called slurs and jokingly flirted with. She even tells a story about how a homophobe hit him with their car. This was very uncomfortable as it was not her experience to share and Shaun was IN THE CALL. She said that Dream’s flirtations with George could be a trigger to people like Shaun because of that experience. This shows again a lack of awareness for other people, she’s using Shaun's personal story for her own gain and not even letting him be the voice that tells it. This sat poorly with me as Kacey was already being accused of speaking over LGBT voices rather than lifting them up with her, then her sister goes and does it live. Maybe Shaun was ok with this, maybe not, it just didn’t sit well with me. At 5hr and 05mins, after Dream is gone, they mention this again and Shaun asks them to point out when he said he was triggered after he talked about his experience. He was clearly uncomfortable with the use of the word and it seems to have been put in his mouth.

Shaun then says that he doesn’t like it because here are Dream and George exhibiting behaviours that some people are often scared to do because of homophobic violence. To me, this was probably one of the only valid sort of feelings against it (Shame he wasn’t let speak more). I understand why someone might look at it that way, but at the same time there is a clear difference between messing with your friends and real life romantic flirtation. In my own personal life I know that I’ve been afraid of any sort of pda with a partner but when it comes to my own joke flirting with friends, I’m never afraid to do it. This can differ from person to person and maybe is very different for gay men but this is my own gay experience as someone who understands that fear. I think that the line is fairly clear between the real and the jokes and I honestly have no doubt that Dream and George have probably had people throw homophobic language their way but it may not have had to same effect as they don’t present themselves as homosexual.

Worth noting that during this exchange Dream does say in passing he’s straight but it’s said in a hypothetical sort of way which leaves it unclear and he’s stated before that he doesn’t like labels and he wants to keep it ambiguous so it would be more respectful to continue thinking of him as such. Ambiguous is the way he chooses to present his sexuality and this should be accepted by everyone instead of making assumptions that he is straight. He was under pressure from four other adults to explain himself and handle accusations, anyone would say they were straight if they were being pushed like that and felt it wasn’t a safe environment. Which it definitely wasn’t and I advise that anyone who does want to watch back the VOD to turn off chat because they’re extremely toxic.

Holly proceeds to say that this makes gay people the butt of the joke, Dream says that he sees it more as the flirting with his friends as the joke, again, I’d agree with him. Depends on your humour I suppose, but arguably, anyone who watches Kacey interact on egirl rejects and stuff like that will see she often makes flirty jokes with Minx and other female friends, for some reason this isn’t seen as queerbaiting, but it’s unfortunately not brought up. I can understand why, Dream wasn’t trying to make any accusations in return, he was legitimately trying to have an earnest conversation which quickly went sour.

Holly goes on to explain how Shaun feels, by speaking over Shaun, and asks Dream what he thinks about that. Dream agrees that Shaun’s feelings are valid and says “That’s why I started this off by saying ‘lets talk about this’“. Holly gets extremely patronizing and asks if he understands it now that it’s been explained.

Dream is still very patient with them and agrees that he’s said things and learnt from mistakes and criticism that he’s received. He speaks honestly about his original cancelling and how he handled it poorly but learnt from that and has grown to be more careful and thoughtful with the things he says.

I have a real issue with this again because words are continuously put in his mouth. He’s asked several times throughout the whole call to denounce things, from people hating on Kacey to actual MASS SHOOTERS. He’s barely given space to defend himself and is ignored when he tries to say that he can’t control his fans. They just ask him time and time again to denounce multiple things.

The only time where Dream seems actually riled up by anything they say is when Holly, at the 4hr 11min mark, mentions the hashtag “Shooters4Dream” trending and says its Dream stans promoting gun violence (which was just a handful of idiots being insensitive under the tag). Dream responds to this with his classic “Oh come on” but before he can say anything else, Kacey does talk over him and says that the tag was mostly people denouncing it and tries to change the subject, but Dream brings it back and says that the tag was stupid and wrong. Holly and Kacey talk about how people were making jokes about it and Holly asks “Is it funny to you? Because your community think it is.” She’s playing such an abrasive blame game with him and he talks about how he spoke against it on twitter, they discount him, and Holly can be seen laughing at him. When Dream tries to explain the issue properly and Kacey just says, “Lets skip this, let's move on.” Dream points out that it is bad that the tag was trending, but he didn’t want to speak about it too much otherwise it would become a bigger thing. Ultimately, he doesn’t control his fans and the meaning of the tag was misconstrued massively. A matter of poor use of language and appalling timing.

Love or Host

Love or Host is brought up a few times as an example of him flirting with George which I found interesting as he’s only been in one episode (George’s) and he was talking mostly to the girls on the show to figure out who is good for George, as that was his role. During this there was joking about how he should come before the girl and even female guests joined this line of joking. This is all part of the show and most played along with the bit, it’s not an uncommon bit for guests on the show to do. Not just Dream and George, but other guests in their respective episodes.

I also find the mentioning of Love or Host interesting purely because, if anything, it’s the exact type of content that Kacey should hate, right? False relationships being formed? It’s not like there’s only straight people on the show as well, there’s been gay and bi love or hosts so queerbaiting, under the parameters which Kaceytron has set, is on the table. I’ve yet to see a real romantic relationship come out of an episode of LoH. This is a show purely for content and Kacey knows this, she’s appeared on multiple shows and even won Sapnap’s episode. She knows their date wasn’t real. Her sister says that many women are afraid to be on LoH because of hate they receive in the aftermath of the show and she claims it’s running its course because of this. I’d have to disagree with this (it’s a super successful show cmon) and, though a lot of people do get hate on the show, I think it’s often outweighed by the benefits they get from that type of exposure which is why people like Kacey continue to appear on multiple episodes.

What I found most interesting was what she said about her appearance on George’s episode. Mostly jokes were made about this costume:

admittedly, it was kind of funny albeit rather creepy. However, if Kacey felt so strongly about Queerbaiting, why would she dress like that. Why wasn’t she a passionate advocate then? Where’d the sudden fire come from? I think we all know the answers to these questions.

In response to people bringing up how she pandered by using this costume, making her a hypocrite, she said that in dressing like that she knew she was appealing to children. Now, I don’t know about you, but I don’t know many kids that want to sit through a four hour long dating show filled with adults they don’t know and stuff they don’t understand. I don’t think the Austin Show’s demographic contains an awful lot of kids, no matter who the guest on the show is. Also, the point of the show is not to appeal to the audience per se, but to the person whose episode it is. It felt like a weak excuse and another chance to try take a dig at mc stans for being younger and trying to brand them as immature.

INITIAL AFTER THOUGHTS

As I said before, creators do not owe you anything, especially not a window into their personal lives. We’re lucky that Dream shares so much and is a very open person, you don’t need to pry any more than that. When you get upset about him queerbaiting you, what you say to me is that you don’t see him as a person. It’s a level of objectification that leaves me feeling uneasy, if you feel robbed of something because of this then you need to set your priorities straight.

As Dream said in the stream, he hasn’t misled anyone. He has specified that him and George are not dating nor do they plan to (I included a SS at the end of this as well where he states this again). If he were queerbaiting then he would title his videos as though George was his boyfriend, he doesn’t do this. He makes it clear that they are friends, their chemistry is never used as a marketing device or as the main attraction of a video.

Many pointed out the hypocrisy of Kacey’s claims. Some pointing to her own channel where she has a playlist of 16 videos titled “gay videos”

These are just a few of the videos. Within one of these videos, titled “The F Word”, she complains about reclamation of slurs and repeatedly says the r slur. She shows no remorse for saying slurs and this is part of why it’s difficult to forgive her.

I don’t even know what to say about this video. This is extremely offensive, even if the people involved agreed to it, it doesn’t mean it's not offensive to other gay people. This clip features her sister and Shaun, who were on the call, kissing while clearly intoxicated. The narrative that gay people can be ”turned straight” is extremely harmful and is an unfortunate reality that many LGBT people are forced through. In the call with Dream, they mention how maybe some gay people are fine with Dream and George’s flirting but people like Shaun weren’t and so they should be more respectful. When it comes to a video, like the one I’ve shown above, you’d think they would follow the same thought process. This is far more offensive and harmful to the LGBT community than any harmless flirting between friends. The hypocrisy is blatant.

Sometimes streamers are tricked into saying slurs by donos etc. but instead of saying sorry I didn’t mean it and here’s what happened, Kacey tends to jump on the defensive. Dream said to her around when he first joined the call that he understood how difficult her position was because when he was first cancelled he felt like it was very unfair. He told her that even if you don’t think you’re wrong you can’t control how other people feel and you have to acknowledge that. He did mention how he handled his cancelling badly (something he still gets shit for today despite the fact he learnt from his mistakes) and that instead of getting upset about it now, he knows you should just take accountability and move on. Kacey doesn’t register this and goes on about how terrible it is for her.

MISOGYNY AND AGE DEMOGRAPHIC

Part of me wonders if the reason she continues to fight with mc stans is because she knows she can just call them stupid kids and call it a day. This is interesting to me as I think I’ve seen more 15-24 year olds in this group rather than young children. Maybe this is just the content I’m looking through but I actually think that her demographic is more similar to Dream’s than she thinks. It’s just easier to write them off as snot-nosed minecraft playing children. This is a theme she sticks with as she makes half-assed jokes about bedtimes and parents etc. etc. It’s boring.

Also, despite the accusations at Dream, calling him a misogynist, it actually was both Kacey and Holly who came in with the sexist narrative as they go on about how his fans are just teenage white girls. This is a clear double standard as they are trying to use both age and gender to discount the validity of their feelings.

For someone who says she doesn’t care, it sure is interesting that she’s tweeted constantly about it and streamed for hours at a time. The stream with Dream was seven hours long. She blames the fact that she accidently read a slur out on stream on her lack of sleep. As a creator, you should know your limits and when you are and aren’t emotionally ready to be on camera. Kacey clearly does not know her limits and it effects her greatly. On the first watch I skipped forward in the VOD to the six hour mark and found she was still chatting shit about Dream with her sister while playing Roblox.

Ironic that she goes on about stupid minecraft kids while being a 30 y/o woman playing Roblox. Nothing wrong with playing stuff at whatever age but not when you’re ragging on kids for the same thing.

USING THE GAY NARRATIVE

I finally wanted to come back to the use of her two gay friends in the so called “debate”. At 6hr and 08mins she reads out a message in either chat or from twitter.

“Listen up here cishet woman, you are cishet, shut your mouth and do not talk about queerbaiting ever again, ok?”

I don’t think people should bother going to her chat to say this stuff because it only fans the flames and will not change her mind but it’s what she said after that left me thinking that she knew exactly what she was doing when she included two gay men in the narrative on her side. She says

“That’s why there were two gay people on the show who talked about queerbaiting and how it’s offensive to them. Are they trying to speak over gay voices? Like, who are they playing?”

I find it difficult to consider this a valid point as they quite literally spoke over said gay people themselves and as I mentioned, it was pressure from Shaun’s chat that made him bring it up when it was clear he wasn’t educated on the specifics of who he was speaking with. It all felt very false and like a set up to try catch Dream out. They were essentially there for the clout they get for being plants for Kacey as long as they go along with the narrative she was pushing. They seemed dispassionate about the topic and were more interested in drama. It makes them unconvincing debators.

KACEY’S CHAT AND ABLEISM

I could barely look at the chat the whole time because they were very toxic and some even used slurs in there. Kacey claims to have created a safe space for people, particularly LGBTQ people, yet from what I saw, it was only really a safe space for bigotry and toxicity. These are just some screenshots that I took during the call.

Blatant ableism in the first one, maybe they didn’t know about his ADHD, but this was one of many and even Kacey and her sister made fun of it when he was out of the call.

Gaslighting is a serious accusation. The definition is this: “Gaslighting is a form of psychological abuse where a person or group makes someone question their sanity, perception of reality, or memories. People experiencing gaslighting often feel confused, anxious, and unable to trust themselves.”

This does not apply to Kacey; she is not questioning her sanity or being confused. She’s outright denying things. There is no gaslighting going on here, yet the chat was FILLED with it. Bitches will learn a new word like gaslighting and queerbaiting and really use it for everything oof.

Not once did he invalidate the fact that there is misogyny in the community and if anything he has expressly supported female creators very vocally and without being asked to. Writing off anything he says just because he’s a white man is not even an argument; he accepts the privilege he has and has never claimed that others don’t experience issues because of these things. This is not a misogynistic attack, this is a grown woman being asked to own up and apologize for her mistakes.

Chat continued to be extremely toxic towards Dream and even people in game with Kacey made multiple jokes about him. Here’s an example of just one.

It says ”What I wear omw to dream’s court hearing.”

They say a lot of horrible things about him and Holly even makes implications of him being inappropriate with fans which is an extremely serious thing to say and is based in NO truth.

SHIFTING FOCUS

Right before Dream left, they reiterated that they didn’t think he was a bad person because of his “queerbaiting”. This was something repeated many times throughout the talk. The implications of this language use is that Dream should be the one apologizing and that Kacey and her friends somehow were the ones with the power to forgive him. Overall, it was misguided and gross. He shouldn’t have had to be defending himself from four people at once all by himself, especially when the conversation was not supposed to be about him. And to clarify, he did not make it about himself, he started by talking about Kacey and how he had been trying to dm her about her cancelling. It was them that turned it on him to flip it in their favour.

There was an insistence that they were the victims, direct quote from Kacey at 5hr 55min and 40sec Kacey says “I am a victim, I am literally a victim of cancel culture.”

Yes, I think the doxxing is too far and constant hate doesn’t do much but Kacey needs to acknowledge that her words hurt a lot of people and she needs to own up to that.

Even after Dream left, they continued to chat shit about him, with Shaun even saying at about the 5hr 16min mark that he thought Dream had “perfectly scripted” his responses in a way that meant he wouldn’t have to denounce his fans. Of course he won’t talk crap on his fans when they’re the reason he is famous and he knows it’s a minority that ruins it for everyone else, he’s said he doesn’t like people who spread hate calling themselves his stans. The idea that Dream could have prepared a response to the questions and accusations thrown at him from a cast of half high and fully ignorant strangers who are all almost 10 years older than him is ridiculous. He was clearly out of his comfort zone and was a complete curveball for him. This leads me on to the main reason I think Dream was dragged into this.

SCAPEGOAT

If we’re being real, this is a clear attempt to change the subject away from Kacey. Dream is someone who people come for often, whether it’s accusations of cheating or scripting or bringing up past mistakes which he has apologized for and showed that he has grown from. He even said to Kacey that he does get death threats and he’s been doxxed before. He constantly gets in trouble because of the more radical “stans” who are a problem starting minority for the rest. Dream separates himself from those people as best as he can, but he knows himself that he can’t escape that brush he’s been tarred with. Kacey also knows this.

By bringing Dream into the narrative, she’s successfully shifted the focus of the conversation in a way that favours her. That stream conversation should’ve been about Kacey and the things that she has said, instead it was a grilling session from four strangers for Dream. Now people are very focused on that aspect of the whole thing (myself included ofc but this post is specifically about qbaiting accusations so) rather than the important part which is holding her accountable for her use of slurs.

It’s not her first attempt at this as she made a twitter post about how she was no.1 trending despite a mass shooting taking place. Of course this is terrible that that would be higher up but it was an obvious blame passing as this reply points out.

She knows what she’s doing and has shown no sign of stopping. It’s best that she’s not given any more attention now but just try not to watch anymore content with her in it. As I said before, don’t bother with any hate, just block and move on. For a creator complaining about all the “kids” coming for her, she doesn’t act all that much older despite being fully grown at 30 years of age.

CONCLUSION

At 6hr 42min 30sec Kacey mentions that she is number 2 on trending to which her friend replies “Good job Kacey”, she laughs. It’s clear that she does this for attention, her friends are there for clout and they are all irrelevant clowns looking to get a career boost out of creators more successful than them. They don’t stop to consider others’ feelings or empathize towards anyone. Kacey will say herself that she got her start from baiting on 4chan, this is her brand. It’s just unfortunate that she seems to think that she’s doing something just when, in actuality, she is causing a lot of damage to the LGBT community and invalidating many people with her unapologetic use of ableist and racist slurs. Her friends congratulate her because it's obvious it’s the attention she wants, this is why she streams for so long and tweets so much. She hit a far higher viewership on this stream than she normally would. I’m sure this sort of hatred does affect her negatively, whether she notices or not, I hope she gets the help she needs to become a less selfish person and to become more productive with her time.

Remember again to not send hate, just block and move on. I also recommend that you don’t watch this stream but if you are going to then watch a reupload on YT so she doesn’t get money out of it.

I was very uncomfortable after watching the stream, especially with all the false allyship with the LGBT community. People like Kacey act like this to get views whenever they’re losing their following. Just don’t fall for any bait and petty jibes that they throw this way. Don’t let any anger get the better of you and just lets move past it as it can’t be healthy for people like Dream to have to see this on his TL as well, which he will if we keep interacting. Though I do think that for now, it’s pretty much over.

For all the talk of how hateful this community is, I couldn’t disagree more. I’ve found most people very pleasant and the CCs themselves very accepting of all types of people. I’ll leave off with these tweets Dream made at the end of last year. Stay safe folks, be positive and kind to each other! Much love <3

#dreamwastaken #kaceytron #georgenotfound

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doshmanziari · 4 years ago

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Musical Offerings for the New Year || What is “Radical Music” in 2021?

Near the end of 2020, a bunch of musicians populating a chatroom, including myself, each submitted ten minutes’ worth of our work to another musician, Chimeratio, who generously compiled it all into a set totaling nearly ten hours.¹ The work didn’t need to be new; just what we thought might best represent our abilities/style(s) and/or perhaps what we were especially pleased with. The set premiered in late January. Since I have some tentative plans for reorienting Brick By Brick this year, while not overriding its emphases, I wanted to share that music with anyone who’s interested.

I compiled the four videos into a playlist, although you can also access them individually: here (1), here (2), here (3), and here (4). If you care to, and are on a computer, you can also view the accompanying chatlog and read people’s responses from when they were listening to the live broadcast.

The compulsion for this project was sparked by excited discussions over and usage of the term “digital fusion”, most helpfully propagated by Aivi Tran, designating a computer-based body of work that for years lacked the rooftop of a commonly agreed upon genre-name. While describing my music has never been a big concern, even if it’s usually felt impossible (what, for example, is this? or this? I dunno!), I’ve appreciated how the spread and application of this term has brought together people who may have felt isolated.²

As “digital fusion” gained designative traction, I witnessed the activity in the aforementioned chatroom explode over the course of a few days. Before, a day’s discussion might’ve been a few dozen messages; now, there were dozens of messages every half-minute. This had positive and negative ramifications, the negative being that conversations often proceeded at a pace of rapidity which precluded concentrated thought. Eventually, I bowed out because the rapidity exceeded my threshold for meaningful interaction; but I was glad that significant invigoration was going on.

I wanted to share this music also because it intersects with thoughts and talks I’ve been having stemming from the question, “What is ‘radical music’ in 2021?” This was stimulated by a 2014 talk given by the writer Mark Fisher, wherein he contends that, were we to play prominent “cutting edge” music from now to people twenty years ago, very nearly none of it would be aesthetically shocking, bizarre, or revelatory (think of playing house music to an audience in the early 1960s!). Fisher also observes a trend of returning to music which once was seen as the future -- as if, deprived of a shared prograde vision, imaginations turn hazily retrograde; ergo, genres such as synthwave or albums like Daft Punk’s Random Access Memories.

It isn’t my goal here to argue about the “end of history.” Fisher’s time-travel hypothetical, however, rings loud and true to me. Visible musical radicalism has, for at least a decade, been strictly extra-musical, in the sense of songs like “This is America” or “WAP”, where one’s response is primarily to the spectacle of the music video, the performer’s identistic markers, and/or the manner in which the lyrics intersect with (mostly US-centric) ideological hotspots. Musically, there is really nothing radical here. Any vociferous condemnations or defenses of a song like “WAP” deal in moralizing reactions to semantics or imagery: how progressive or regressive is the political aspect? how propelled or repelled are we by the word “pussy”?

It would be a mistake, and simply wrong, to assert that the only music one can enjoy escapes the parameters outlined above; and my inability to coherently categorize some of my own music hardly raises that portion to the status of radicality. But the question here pertains to what is being made, and I think that if we’re going to seriously consider the nature of truly radical music today, we do need to question if such a quality can prominently exist when our hyper-fast consumerist cycle seems to forbid not just sustained, lifelong relationships to artwork but also the local, unhurried nourishment of creative gestation. Now, in my opinion, there are good, even great, examples of radical music still being made in deep Internet-burrows, and for evidence of that I would offer some of the material contained in the linked playlists. Moreover, I’d say that this quality can exist in part because these little artistic communities are so buried.

Let me share a quote that another person shared with me recently:

For culture to shift, you need pockets of isolated humanity. Since all pockets of humanity (outside of the perpetually isolated indigenous people in remote wilderness) are connected in instantaneous fashion, independent ideas aren’t allowed to ferment on their own. When you cook a meal, you have to bring ingredients together that have had time to grow, ferment, or decompose separately. A cucumber starts out as a seed, then you mix it with the soil, water and sunlight. You can’t bring the seed, soil, water and sunlight to the kitchen from the get-go. When you throw those things in to the mixture without letting them mature, the flavor cannot stand out on its own. Same thing with art and fashion. A kid in Russia can come up with a new way to dance, gets filmed on a phone, it goes viral quickly but gets lost in the morass of all of the other multitudinous forms of dance. Sure it spread far and wide, but it gets forgotten in a week. In the past, his new art form would have been confined locally, nurtured, honed, then spread geographically, creating a distinct new cultural idiosyncrasy with a strong support base. By the time it was big enough to be presented globally, it was already a cultural phenomenon locally. This isn’t possible anymore. We’re consuming too many unripened fruits.

The main impression I have here is that radical music today will, and must be, folk music. Our common idea of folkiness might be the scrappy singer strumming a guitar, but my interpretive reference rather has to do with the idea of a music being written, first of all, for one’s self, and then shared with a small-scale community, which in turn helps the artist grow at their own pace. This transcends a dependence upon image, the primacy of acoustic instrumentation, or the signaling of sincerity versus insincerity. It is a return to the valuation of outsider art, so rare nowadays. As someone who I was recently in dialogue with wrote, “Where can you find new genuine folk music? Pretty much just with your friends, imo. Even then, the global world is so influential and seeps into any crack it can find. I think vaporwave was radical and folk for a while. Grant Forbes made that music way before the world knew about it.”

Sometimes, a lot of fuss is made over what’s seen as “gatekeeping” within certain communities. It can be, depending on the context, justifiable to question and critique this behavior. At other times, the effort of maintaining a level of exclusivity, of retaining an idiosyncratic shapeliness to the communal organism, can be a legitimate attempt to protect the personal, interpersonal, and cultural aspects from the flattening effect of monoculture. Hypothetically, I welcome the Castlevania TV series and Super Smash Bros. Ultimate having introduced new and younger demographics to Castlevania. In actuality, stuff like “wholesome sad gay himbo Alucard”, image macros, and neurotic “stan” fanfiction being what’s now first associated with the series makes me want to put as much distance as possible between my interests and those latecoming impositions.

The group-terminology David Chapman uses in his essay “Geeks, MOPs, and Sociopaths in Subculture Evolution” is kinda cringey, but some of the cultural/behavioral patterns he lays out are relevant to the topic. Give it a look. If we cross his belief that “[subcultures] are no longer the primary drivers of cultural development” with our contemporary consume-and-dispose customs, we’re left with the predicament of it’s even worth attempting to bring radical/outsider art beyond its rhizomatic habitat. This is troubling, because it would mean that artistic radicality no longer might not only refuse to but cannot encompass cultural upheaval. It would be like if dance music were invented and -- instead of progressively permeating nightlife, stimulating countercultural trends, and ultimately being adapted as the basis for pop music globally -- only were listened to via headphones by a few thousand people on their own, stimulated a group meeting once a year or two, and never affected music beyond a niche-within-a-niche. That’s a very sad picture to me.

⁂

¹ Chimeratio has also maintained an excellent blog on here dedicated to looking at videogame music written in irregular time signatures, far preceding higher-profile examinations like 8-bit Music Theory’s video on the same topic.

² For myself, creative isolation has had its uses, because it has led me down routes that are highly personalized. The isolation can be dispiriting too. Although a lot of my music is videogame-music-adjacent, almost none of it uses “authentic” technology, such as PSG synthesizers or FM synthesis; and the identification of those sounds is fairly important for recognition.

#music analysis #radicalism #digital fusion

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weaselbeaselpants · 4 years ago

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I have a lot to say and not enough time to say it. It hurts, but ya’ll know what this is about so if you want my full fandom retrospective opinion thing guys, here.

I’ve been following Vivienne’s art and career since I found her on dA in 2009. I’ve basically grown up with her and have a wide range of opinions up and down her collective work. I must stress that I do not know her as a person and no matter how critical I get in my personal time if I somehow met her in real life or converse with her online again (like, back in the day we went back and forth. She was pretty nice to me), I’d be humble and congratulate her for her success.

Critique does not, EVER equate to attacking people.

But

the reason I don’t call myself a VivziePopVivzmind-fan is the exact same as to why I don’t like the proud use of ‘anti’. Let me try and explain -

The vast majority of Viv fans are just that: fans. Viv’s one of their favorite artists and they’re happy for her and obviously defensive when some mouth breather pops into their fan discussion calling her and all of them trash. Quite a lot of the Hazbin fans I know in my circle of friends are all pretty accepting and agree on the problematic notions and implications of her work.

HOWEVER, there’s a vocal minority in the VivziePop fandom that were and still are toxic. Their specific interest in Viv back in the day was toxic...and now that she’s moved on into a successful career I doubt they’ve gone away, considering the things I’ve heard. These people - they’d flood Viv’s comments sections and stuff with messages like they were talking to her when they weren’t and they’d unironically call her a god in a way that feels like gaslighting, ex: “I’ll NEVER be as good as you Viv! My art is just sooooo unpopular oh god you are incredible no one will ever like you as much as meeeee”. It made me uncomfortable. It made me not want to be around her because these people took Viv’s role in their lives so seriously and their demand for her attention...it struck a nerve.

These same fans have been around long enough to see actual shitlords - the likes of Kiwifarms and tapatalk wikis - come in and actually harass Viv. Viv’s been sent revenge porn by sick freaks who think they’re funny and believe she deserves it. No. In my non-name fan bystander opinion, Viv’s got some shit to work on, but no one deserves raperevenge porn. EVER. It was genuinely bad and yes Viv and her base have every reason to NOT TRUST these communities. Unfortunately, when these incidents happened, these particular fans took it upon themselves to gatekeep the fandom and act like Viv’s unofficial guard against any kind of decenting opinion of her, all without her say so.

((to the critics who will be all “but Viv or Faust said THIS to their fans-”, like I said, Viv’s far from perfect but regardless of how much she prolly wanted people to side with her I’m gonna guess that she didn’t want people sending transphobic death threats to DollCreep. Again, and this is coming from a bystander here, I have a feeling Viv knows about some of the toxicity but doesn’t know how/want to address it - which is a conversation all it’s own.))

This particular breed of VivziePop “fan” holds so much toxicity in her fandom(s). They aren’t the only cause, but they’re there. They feel entitled to her attention and her approval. They creep me out. Having spoken to other much-less critical admitted fans of Viv around me, these fans appear to creep everyone else out and put the rest of the fandom on edge. They’re gatekeepers. They’re creeps. Like the bronies and SU fans of yestertodayyears, they know harassment exists and that people have crossed the line - so they think any means is necessary to prevent that is automatically good. I could pile together all the incidents and folks who’ve had bad runs ins with this aftershock of Viv-obsession, but I do have a life of my own and this post is already stupid long so I’ll just list out the biggest examples and provide receipts when asked.

Critical blogs have gotten RAPE and death threats because they don’t like Viv’s art. HonestZoophobiaCriticisms, a blog I interracted with back in the day, def got one. Now Viv’s opinion of crit-blogs is that they’re “bad takes” but I can assure you she doesn’t want that shit being said on her behalf.

I’ve seen young artists get blacklisted from sites and forums cause they so much as post a redesign. Viv and co get told through the grapevine that someone’s making hatespeech and so preemptively block said person (prolly cause they’re in the middle of WORKING and can’t deal right now) only to find out after the fact that no, it was just a kid drawing their version of her characters. There’s serious miscommunication issues within the fandom about who’s ‘good’ or ‘bad’ and once you get the actual staff involved in this game of telephone you’re begging for trouble. The problem acknowledged, however, it’s souly from the “Viv never did anything wrong camp”. No word is said about how ugly the fandom is under the surface it’s all one type of person’s fault and not complicated’. Blah

I’ve only ever had ONE obsessive ‘fan’ who’d stalk me, mock me, and then redraw my art just to get attention from me. That shit fucked with my head. As a follower hundreds of miles away from Viv who’s agreed/disagreed with her through the years - I absolutely believe her when she says she hates ‘creeps’ and that she doesn’t want anyone in her fandom spreading hate on her behalf. It’s the one thing about her I’m POSITIVELY sure of. Whether she believes that said underlying harassment exists and/or is even a problem within her fandoms is anyone’s guess. That’s not what I’m here for. I’m here to write stupid blog entries like this, talk about fandoms and media and how they and the real world affect one another, and rb fan art I like. I’m cautiously optimistic fan with a side of salt.

Mixed opinions and critique within a fandom CAN and SHOULD exist. Hazbin Hotel has been greenlit by a studio! It has a product line of merchandise you buy. Helluva Boss is getting eight more episodes this coming year (yeeee:3yeeee). Two of Viv’s properties are now products. Nothing is immune from critique. And in critique you will find a lot of people who are not ‘nice’. Critique or analysis doesn’t have to be nice. There will be, in Viv’s words’ ‘bad takes’ on her writing. Maybe they will be actual CinemaSins-styled bad takes or maybe Viv is just mad that people don’t love and feel inspired by her characters the way she wants them to - it’s a fact she’s going to have to get used to.

((TBH, I’m pretty sure she’s already realized that criticism of all types need to exist. It’s just that, again, her and the SpindleHorse staff are kind of overwhelmed by all matter of takes and opinions coming their way they kinda can’t deal weeding out the fair ones from the assholes, so she lumps them all together.))

Shitposters, ironic fans, unironic fans, critical fans, just critics of Hazbin and Helluva CAN and WILL exist. They should exist and not feel threatened by the megafandom. There are people out there who are one step further and rightfully bothered by Hazbin/Helluva’s use of incorrect symbols, portrayal of certain topics, and the response by creators. These people have strong opinions and are actually disgusted by Viv. They deserve to exist too and should not be vilified because, like me, they’re commentary doesn’t consist of anything personal towards the people at Spindlehorse or the fans of her works. They can rant, they can be professional, they can be petty and they can be fair. But they will exist. You have to deal with it.

I am an ADD/OCD ridden autistic woman with serious anxiety issues who has no one to talk to half the time and so only HAS my fandom to communicate with. But that’s just it - it’s a fandom. A community. You have to learn to not think souly of yourself and of others in a community. A fandom doesn’t exist just for you or any one person. You have the right to be angry and defend or be offended. And it’s in the spirit of that that I ask, prrraaaaaay even, that I please

NOT BE CALLED AN “ANTI-ANTI” for not liking the moniker?!

I DON’T TO BE AN “ANTI”. Not ironically, not unironically. ‘Anti’ should be for politics and shit like pedophiles, necrophiles, nazis, serial killer stans, Trump, racists, antisemites, terfs, animal abusers, rapists, and antivaxxers. Anti should only come into critical media analysis when these ethical issues follow suit IN TO fandom discussion. ((EX: Anime and MLP proudly waving their cp and non-con into the public eye; Hazbin appropriating cultural symbols which are not satanic; Basically anything that concerns John K or Butch Hartman.))

If your DNI list unironically consists of the entirety of one fandom: CONGLATURATIONS! You have done the exact same thing these particular creepy Viv fans have done: monopolize the conversation. And yes, people I’m referring to, IT’S STILL A PROBLEM EVEN IF YOU’RE FIGHTING RACISM/SEXISM/HOMOTRANSPHOBIA.

There are hundreds of Vivziefans who ARE more critical, accepting of faults, interested in discussion and especially rewrite and redesign stuff who would LOVE to engage with you and give you a follow. There’s hundreds of people who no doubt agree with you!

But the thing I’ve seen these very proud AntiHazbinVivzieHelluvaWhatever blogs do is lash out at fans for continuing to like Viv and consume Viv’s art in a healthy way. What the actual fuck is your problem?

I get it. Say a crazy Hazbin fan gets on your case for even SUGGESTING Viv could be homophobic ((”SHE’SBIANDWORKSWITHGAYPPLblahablahblah”)). They get in your face, make some callouts, try to rile up support against you, leave disgusting harassment throughout your social media? Absolutely ban worthy. After that it’s perfectly understandable why you don’t want to engage with anything HHHBZPVivzierelated because you’re so fucking tired of being labeled an abuser or “just jealous” for having an opinion on a show you don’t like. I’m with you!

But,

A fan agrees that something in the canon is bad or that Viv did something they don’t like?

A fan likes your silly shitpost meme?

A fan asks if they can like Hazbin and follow you at the same time?

A fan does fan art of something you don’t like?

If your response to any of these ^^^ things is to get LOUD and accusatory, Vivsplain them about how they’re an absolutely awful person to ever question YOUR opinion, or just block them without a second thought? You’re a petty, vendictive shit and you also need to learn to let things go. I’m sorry but you do. As I already said, Viv’s work is a brand at this point, not just the work of a singular person. As such, there are gonna be mixed opinions and you can’t judge every single one of these people by what they like. You’re a shitty critic with a shitty attitude and yes that will demean the value of what you’re saying. This is bad because, if you’re trying to point out how Angel Dust’s abuse IS handled terribly; gay rep in Viv’s work is weak and terrible; the show appropriates closed practices; the fandom makes excuses for predatory artists and creepy behavior and individuals who have sketchy pasts - I’M WITH YOU. WE NEED TO BE TALKING ABOUT THIS SHIT. JUST BECAUSE THESE ARE ADULT CARTOONS SET IN HELL MEANS THERE SHOULD BE ANYTHING CLOSE TO 2013 PONY-TUMBLR. <<<---- this shit is as important to me as it is to you and I really don’t like being called an abuser or apologist for saying “hey maybe blowing up at ppl for the shows they like ISN’T the way to go about this”.

But I have, just like the good old days of 2015 Zoophobia of yore, been blocked because I admit to being tired of ‘Anti’ being equated to ‘critical’. Same with hater.

Critical DOES NOT = Anti+Hater. I’m fucking tired of people saying it does and I’m tired of people taking up the term as some weird form of fandom reappropriation. It’s stupid.

Tl;dr: Once upon a time, I was in a budding fandom for something I liked made by an indie artist I watched on dA. I wanted to be a bigger fan than I was already, but was told by toxic people within said fandom that I couldn’t be part of it for reasons they’d made up in their head about my ‘motives’ against Viv. My admiration for Viv or what I liked about Zoophobia didn’t matter because I thought the story was really rushed and people weren’t being truthful with how they really felt about it - ergo, I HAD TO GO.

Flash forward 8 years later- My opinion of Viv’s body of work has changed but I still find myself in love with her style and some of her characters. I want to be on a forum or service that gives a healthy look at the problems there are with this series and fandom...and I’m met repeatedly by petty bs where people are again at each other’s throats. And yes, I do think it’s causing more harm than good especially when you insist there’s a “x person shouldn’t be trusted” mentality when fighting actual fucking racist, xenophobic, predatory bullshit.

#vivziepop #vivziepop critical #vivziepop drama #hazbin hotel #hazbin critical #hazbin hotel critical #critical hazbin hotel #anti anti #antis #anti hazbin hotel #cause I want both sides of this debaucle to see this and I'm tired #K?

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aching-tummies · 4 years ago

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Have you ever dealt with food-restriction or ED or whatever?

I really debated answering this one. I understand that it's a sensitive topic for a lot of people, and I do go into some personal details with my struggles, so I'm going to put most of that under a cut.

I know a lot of blogs have something like "we do not stan ED in this house" and that's the extent of their address on the topic and some get pretty angry if anyone even mentions ED around them. I get it, it's a triggering topic and it can be unhealthy and maybe hearing about it or seeing it or whatever pushes someone (back) into bad habits. I understand all that. In my opinion though, shutting down the topic is problematic. I believe that destigmatization saves lives--and not just for ED. Making it a dirty little secret and something one feels ashamed of talking about or struggling with creates more problems. It doesn't go away just because someone feels they cannot talk about it. I'm on the side of destigmatization--where "how are you" is an actual question rather than a casual greeting where "good" or "great" are the only acceptable answers. No--it's supposed to be a question and we shouldn't have to feel ashamed when we are going through crap. Maybe neither party has time to get into it then and there and maybe the other party isn't comfortable/or the right person to go to with those particular issues...but "how are you" is supposed to be a genuine question, not a greeting.

Short answer to whether or not I've dealt with food-restriction or ED: yes.

I don't want to invite drama onto my blog with this...but I think it's time I said something on the topic. For one, I'm sick of how people go "we don't stan ana on this blog--GTFO" and leave the discussion at that. I don't think that is healthy. People that actually struggle with EDs and Ana maybe want to get help...but professional/formal help is not always accessible and not necessarily always the right tool for what they are going through in that moment. I understand that EDs are unhealthy and I am not trying to glorify them...but I want to say that I care about the people struggling with the stuff and I admire their resilience. There's enough shaming going on around the world and I'm not going to dish it out to someone struggling with an ED. I'm not going to make it out to be something that's taboo to talk about like it's some dirty little secret. I want to de-stigmatize it. I want a world where someone can be like, "I struggle with food/eating and I had a setback last night" and those of us listening can be like, "Alright. Is there something you need/want me to do with that information? How can I help?" Currently, I see a lot of, "Shh! That's a triggering topic! Do you want to set off all the other ED suffer-ers in here?! Don't talk about that noise!" even in my IRL friend groups and I think it's just sad. These are the same friends that are constantly reblogging, "It's okay to not be okay" and “I’m a safe person to tell stuff to” stuff but clearly they don't believe that.

The way I see it, living with EDs is like living with a pet alligator. It was once small and cute and early on maybe you made one choice: you chose to keep it. Great...well, now it's grown and it's a problem and you don't know what to do with a full-grown alligator that eyes you like you're it's next meal. Who do you talk to when everyone shuts you down and maybe there isn't an "animal control" number you can reach out to because it's expensive or it doesn't exist in your area or they're so over-booked that you'll be alligator-chum before they get to you? That's how I see ED. It's terrifying but it's still 'your' pet alligator, even if you feel more like it's pet human at times.

Onto the personal aspects.

I've never been officially diagnosed with an ED and I don't believe I've ever done something that's extremely dangerous on this front. That being said I have (and sometimes still do) struggle with intrusive thoughts about my body.

I'm "average" sized...maybe on the bigger side of average in North America...however, there's a different standard in Asian culture. Like the "Asian F". I was always told I was supposed to be smaller. I was supposed to be no more than 5'3, no more than 110lbs, have a bust no bigger than 34C, and be able to fit into anything marketed to teens and up. Yeah...I'm none of that.

I'm going to try not to rant and get angry and upset...so here goes, take 7 on trying to answer this.

I grew up surrounded by judgmental adults. I eat and I'm fat; I refuse to eat or eat less and I'm exhibiting worrisome behavior. My take away: I bring dishonour on my cow no matter what I do. Sure, there are those that'll be like, "they'll judge me whether I eat or not so I may as well eat some good food"...yeah...that's not me. Choosing to skip the meal and the company entirely is the only way I feel/felt like I 'win'...but as a child that wasn't an option.

I mostly ate alone in University, but my brain filled in for the silence of judgmental comments. If I ate my whole lunch in one sitting I'd get upset with myself. I'd pack smaller portions and I'd be aware they were smaller, but I'd still be upset with myself for finishing it...or even finishing it and still being hungry. If I caved and bought a sugary drink or a snack or something because it looked good, I'd scold myself for using up the food budget as well as the calories budget. I used to break apart individual cookies--one cookie would take 3-4 sittings/days for me to allow myself to finish because I'd only allow myself two fractured pieces at a time. Some days, i.e. weekends, I'd intentionally skip a meal or two and rationalize that I was simply indulging in kink and that I'd eat later. I always did end up eating later and going about my life as normal. "Fasting once in a while is supposed to be healthy", I'd tell myself...but I won't deny that there was some part of me that would tell me that every skipped meal and calorie ignored was gradually working toward shrinking my body.

Despite how it sounds, I wasn't actually doing noticable damage to my body. Physically, I was within the realm of healthy...maybe on the bigger side of average and definitely not mentally sound...but my body was fine. My body didn't change--I didn't gain or lose weight. I ate...I just felt bad about it and beat myself up about it. In retrospect, it was a heck of a lot of mental anguish I did to myself with nothing to show for it.

Life after University is pretty stressful. Stress doesn't agree with my tummy so I got (and still get) frequent upset stomachs. I've become pretty conscious of eating and how my stomach feels so I end up being careful to eat less so that there is less to upset my tummy. I do it because an upset stomach is inconvenient...but I do enjoy the fact that it seems I have lost a little weight. Losing weight isn't a big part of my rational though. My coworkers have mentioned that I look thinner. I don’t see much of a change when I look in the mirror...but my belt does up two notches tighter without too much fuss so I guess I have slimmed down just a smidge. I didn't intend to lose weight, I just cut down on eating because I didn't want to deal with so many upset stomachs...I think I'm allowed to enjoy the unintentional weight loss without it being a problem...but if I had a problem then I guess what I think about this situation doesn't count for much.

I wish I was thinner--just enough to fit into acceptable sizes in the women's section. Enough to not feel like "the big one" when among my friends. I don't idealize the extremes of weight-loss...like...I don't want to be able to count my ribs or have my joints be wider around than my biceps or whatever. And I don't feel like I'm obsessed with losing weight/being thinner. It's something I want...but I also want a burrito and a can of Cola. I tend to partake more than I deny myself nowadays...just in smaller portions. I’ll still get mad at myself for indulging...but I do indulge and try to lessen the mental kicking by splitting things between two meals or something. I still break apart my cookies and eat them over the course of a couple of days...but most of that is because I run out of time to enjoy the treat or because I want to ration it so that I don't have to spend money to buy another one every single time. I don't try to count calories and all that. I still see eating less as a good thing...but I'll still eat a decent portion...I won't pick at my food rather than eat it.

My opinion here, but I don't think I'm unhealthily obsessing over weight and body issues and stuff. They're a part of my life but I don't think they do enough to be super problematic at this stage in my life.

And now onto the tie-in with the content on this blog. I've answered quite a few asks about how I feel about 'stuffing' and the thing that rhymes with "Geight Wain" with "for reasons I don't want to share, I'm not comfortable with that stuff". Most of the reasons I was thinking of for those asks is covered in the personal stuff above. I'm not comfortable with stuffing and the big "double-u gee" because for all of my life I've felt or internalized some judgements about body size and weight. It's very upsetting for me. It's also why I hate a lot of the degradation talk and things mentioning chub or fat or rolls or whatever--because it brings be back to being a kid sitting amongst judgmental adults feeling ashamed of how much of the universe’s matter I took up. If other people like those tags they're free to do so...I just don't want that sort of thing shoved into my face or imposed onto me because it makes me feel bad and makes me remember bad times. I’m into tum-kink and stuff and would love to indulge IRL with an actual partner someday...but I don’t think I will ever be comfortable with putting on weight or even RPing something like that. The thought of getting bigger terrifies me and it’s not something I want encouragement for personally. You do you if that’s what you’re into...just leave me out of it.

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lillupon · 4 years ago

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So, I've got a very long rant/opinion here and Idk really know how to say this without coming off kinda bad but I'm gonna say it anyways. I agree with the fact that the seventeen tag has been kinda dry lately on most fanfic places, but it's really only in the smut area. It's the sane way with other groups too I feel like. All of the nice little innocent tags are boomin to this day and thats completely fine. I think the smut tag is dry tho bc lately I feel like a few social issues (like sexualizing people and disrespecting them and their identity) have crossed over into kpop and have been ?blown out of proportion? Lately there's been a rampage of people who like to say that writing smut about someone is disgusting and is dehumanizing because people want to assume that it would make the idols uncomfortable which could equate to some morality issues on how you are reducing someone only to their body without their consent and a bunch of stuff like that. It kind of pisses me off bc this is fiction. About grown adults. Clamping down on horny people who simp over hot asian men isn't going to solve the issues we face in real life. I think a shit ton is wrong with the world we currently live in, and deciding to come after something that isn't even real bothers me. Like what does that actually accomplish. But yeah, I think thats a reason why smut has been dying down. I mean, on youtube almost every video about unpopular opinions, or things they dont like about kpop will include something about shipping idols in fanfics. And then everyone in the comment section will talk about how its all fine and dandy in moderation, but once people start writing smut it's crossing the idols personal boundaries. It's something I've been seeing a lot more often and I think people who are interested in writing smut are being turned away from it bc we've gotten to a point where people are being called disgusting for having fantasies.

Hi Anon, thank you for sending in this Ask.

I want to preface this by saying: when I write or talk about Mingyu and Wonwoo fucking on my blog, it is a fantasy. I am not speculating about what the real Mingyu and Wonwoo might be like in bed. I am imagining the versions of Mingyu and Wonwoo that I have created in my head, that exist only in my stories. None of it is real. I understand that this can be a blurry boundary for some people. But for me, the separation between fantasy and reality is well-defined. Now, on to your Ask!

You’ve hit the nail on the head with this one. You’ve also touched on many of the issues I have been struggling with myself as of late. It’s difficult to argue about morals since everyone has a different set of values, as well as different comfort levels. Some people think real person fiction (RPF) is a gross invasion of privacy. Others are fine with it. And others don’t care one way or another. There is no single answer; I can only offer my answer. Which means, of course, people are welcome to disagree with it, or parts of it.

In this essay (LOL But forreal: this is an essay), I will be sharing my experience in the k-pop fanfic community from 2014 to present, the etiquette I personally abide by as a reader and writer of RPF, as well as my stance on RPF in general.

I started reading and posting fanfics back in 2014/2015 on a website called AsianFanfics (AFF). Obviously, no one on that site had a problem with RPF, since AFF is a platform made specifically for sharing stories about Asian celebrities. For many years, I read and enjoyed RPF with zero guilt. I scribbled away by myself in my own corner of fandom and curated my own content. I didn’t interact much with other fans, readers, or writers. I didn’t have a Twitter, and I only used tumblr to reblog memes. As a result, I’ve been able to avoid a lot of anti-shipping discourse, as well as purity and cancel culture. I had no idea there were so many negative opinions about RPF. It wasn’t until I became active on the subreddit r/Fanfiction last year that I learned about all the discourse surrounding RPF.

This newfound ‘awareness’ does make me feel guilty at times—but only because after mulling this over, I still don’t think this is something to feel guilty about.

Here’s what I remember, first and foremost, when I create and consume RPF: fanfics and my favourite ships are fictional, and fiction is fantasy. This is basic etiquette when it comes to RPF, and most people in the k-pop fandom understand this. Delusional fans exist, of course, but they are not representative of the entire k-pop community.

Another point of etiquette is to keep fanfics within fandom spaces. I would never push my fics into celebrities’ faces, or go around claiming that my fanfics are accurate representations of a k-idol’s life or personality, in any way, shape, or form. I would also discourage directing ship-related questions to official accounts, or bringing them up during fansigns or other face-to-face interactions; I believe that in these instances, shipping does have the potential to strain real-life relationships.

So with basic etiquette out of the way, let me share my approach to RPF in general.

As much as we like to think we know our favourite celebrities, we really don’t. All we see is their public persona. And this public persona is intentionally controlled, managed, and curated by a team of people: directors, tabloids, editors, makeup artists, publicists, etc. How “real” are these celebrities? We are so distanced from them that they may as well be fictional.

I draw from the public persona that idols project, and I work them into my own writing. But at the end of the day, these personalities are my own interpretation. My interpretation is probably nothing like an idol’s actual personality. I just use the “public persona/character” that idols portray as inspiration for my own stories, which are set in wildly different universes.

More than anything, I think of k-pop idols as “actors” in my fic. You know how when you write an original novel, you scroll through Google images, looking for the perfect person to portray your original character? RPF is literally that, except you might build upon pre-existing dynamics and personalities.

When it comes to explicit fanfiction, two main concerns are prevalent: one of consent, and one of sexualisation.

If we argue against explicit RPF due to lack of consent, we should be willing to apply the same lens to all explicit works. How do we know that the creator of a movie, book, series, etc., is okay with us using their characters in our stories, explicit or not? We don’t. Perhaps some creators encourage fanfiction, but don’t want their lovingly crafted characters engaging in sexual acts or experiencing trauma. We just don’t know. I feel this line is even more blurred when we talk about characters from movies or TV series.

Let’s take Steve Rogers and Bucky Barnes, as portrayed by Chris Evans and Sebastian Stan, from the Captain America movies as an example. I am willing to bet that when people consume and create explicit fanfiction about Steve and Bucky, they are imagining Chris Evans and Sebastian Stan in their heads. I doubt many people are imagining the 2D cartoon versions of Steve and Bucky, even though they’re technically the exact same characters. Why? Well, it could be because movies are more readily and easily consumed than comics, and so people are unfamiliar with comic book Steve and Bucky. But it might also be because fans find Chris Evans and Sebastian Stan attractive. Is this really any different from RPF, where fic authors make up everything about a celebrity’s life?

When readers and writers of fanfic talk about how hot Steve Rogers or Bucky Barnes is, those comments are about Chris Evans and Sebastian Stan’s bodies. When reading explicit stories, fans are going to picture Chris and Sebastian’s bodies in their head, doing sexual things. Can we say, “Well, it’s not really you, Chris/Sebastian”, when in a way, it is?

The reality is, people are going to thirst over celebrities, regardless of whether or not explicit fanfiction exists. They’re going to post thirst tweets on Twitter. They’re going to talk to friends and strangers online about how hot [insert celebrity name here] is. They’re going to fantasize about dating and having sex with their favourite celebrity. Or, as it is in my case, they’re going to make up stories in their heads about their favourite idols dating and banging each other. People are going to do all of this without ‘getting consent’ from the celebrity. Cracking down upon and shaming writers of RPF isn’t going to change any of that.

To be honest, I’m not sure why people think it is disgusting to imagine sexual scenarios about real people. It is okay and normal to have these kinds of fantasies. I suppose the alternative is to fantasise about having sex with cartoon characters instead? It’s a very binary way of thinking to say that if you imagine/write real people in explicit scenarios, you are immediately sexualising, dehumanising, or objectifying them. There is more to dehumanisation than writing smut about our favourite celebrities. For one thing, you can love someone and appreciate all parts of them, and still want to fuck their brains out. And generally, fanfics come from a place of love—love that is not only sexual in nature.

Is it the sharing aspect inherent to fanfiction? The possibility that a celebrity might stumble upon explicit works about them? The chances are very low, I think, of the k-pop idols I enjoy writing about coming across my English fics. But I also believe in curating your own content, and that applies to celebrities too. Perhaps a celebrity should not go searching for fanfics about themselves. And of course, people should not show celebrities their fanfics, unless invited.

Another argument I hear against (explicit) RPF is, “How would you feel if someone wrote fanfiction about you?” First off, I don’t like this argument because there’s a difference between someone who decides to be a public figure versus someone who decides to remain a regular private citizen. Celebrities should and do know what they’re getting into when they choose their occupation. (This is not to say, “They are celebrities; sexualise them all you want because that’s what they signed up for.” Here, I am only acknowledging that people might have sexual fantasies about celebrities they are attracted to. Presumably, celebrities are cognizant of this.)

If someone (whose existence I am not even aware of, mind you) decides they want to write explicit fanfiction of me in some tiny corner of the Internet, I wouldn’t care so long as: (1) they don’t shove it into my face, and (2) they don’t harass me and ask invasive questions about my personal life and relationships. It’s not hurting me or negatively affecting my life, so it wouldn’t even register as a blip on my radar. When fanfiction remains within its appropriate spaces, it is largely harmless.

Now, if a k-pop idol were to ask their fans to stop writing fanfiction about them, would I? Yes, I would. However, I can’t imagine that happening. Judging by the number of ‘sexy’ concepts, fanservice moments, and variety shows such as ‘We Got Married’, I am certain that k-pop idols realise they are the stars of many fantasies—some of which are explicit in nature. Considering the prevalence of shipping in the k-pop industry, I would argue that shipping is subtly encouraged.

It’s sad that so many talented writers are shamed out of fandom, or feel that k-pop cannot be the medium through which they tell their stories, or explore their sexuality, or cope with trauma, or simply have fun. Professional works and Hollywood love their RPF—readers and writers of fanfics should be able to, as well.

As you said Anon, “clamping down on horny people who simp over hot asian men isn't going to solve the issues we face in real life” (this is a lovely sentence, by the way). The kind of person who dehumanises another and reduces them to a sexual object will do so some other way, if not via fanfiction. I don’t think the issue of fetishisation can be fixed simply by telling people not to write explicit RPF. In my experience, people who read and write RPF are more respectful and thoughtful about these things than the general public. We’ve all seen the general public say highly sexual things about celebrities in the media and to their faces, or tag celebrities in their thirst tweets. Are these things less invasive than fanfiction? Personally, I don’t think so. And in my opinion, there are more pressing and damaging issues in stan culture than fanfic.

In conclusion, I don’t think there is anything wrong with creating and consuming RPF, both explicit and non-explicit so long as we:

Remember we are writing fiction

Keep RPF within its appropriate space, and

Do not harass celebrities about their personal lives and relationships

RPF is not for everyone. There may be people who enjoy RPF, but draw the line at explicit stories. This is fine. Everyone has their own personal preferences. What is not fine, however, is attacking people for creating things you don’t like. I’m not sure what kind of moral crusade people are on and what they hope to achieve by shaming writers of RPF, explicit or otherwise. Ultimately, fic authors are writing a fantasy. It’s not real; no one is being hurt. I think it’s important for people to curate their own content, and AO3 makes it very easy to filter out explicit works and unwanted tags.

Maybe this is me trying to justify my own participation in explicit RPF—I don’t know. What I do know is that I love k-pop, and fandom is an important part of my media and entertainment experience. I adore the k-pop idols I write about, and I just want to imagine them being happy and getting lots of love and orgasms. Let a bitch be horny, goddamn…

Some bonus fun facts!

At the time I am writing this, on AO3:

26.2% of Stray Kids fanfics are rated M or E

26.3% of Seventeen fanfics are rated M or E

29.0% of Merlin fanfics are rated M or E

34.9% of Captain America (Movies) fanfics are rated M or E

40.1% of BTS fanfics are rated M or E ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

Coincidentally, I saw this post on Reddit this morning: Can we have a RPF positivity post?

#asks #my writing #fic & fandom #I keep coming back to fiddle and add things to this answer #but I think I've said all I wanted to now...

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blue-shaded · 4 years ago

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people have been talking abt dream on here recently n i watch some of the other people in the dream smp so, a comprehensive list to things (to my knowledge) that he’s done/why people don’t support it and also some context for some of it

cw // mentions of possible pedophilia, mentions of the r-slur

1. the poll stuff is exactly as the other anons have said. many of the other dream smp creators also encouraged their fans to vote for that mob. kind of annoying but. that’s just the way it is, it’s like urging your fans to vote for a friend in an awards show, it’s natural to promote stuff you like/support to your fans

2. the thing w being shipped with his friends (some of whom are minors)! this one is in a way true, though not in the way that other anons have said. the context behind this one is that ninja was making suggestive/sexual comments with tommyinnit, who’s a 16 year old that’s a part of the dream smp, and dream laughed and encouraged the jokes. tommy makes a lot of sexual jokes about random things and though i don’t like ninja, he was going along with the bit, however i do think it started going too far as tommy then sent a panic word to wilbur soot, who’s one of the other members of the dream smp, which was a code word they’d made with one another for if they were ever uncomfortable and needed to be helped. a lot of people were confused as to whether this was part of the bit or not because tommy included these jokes in his youtube video, which many assumed that he wouldn’t do if it did make him uncomfortable and also once wilbur showed up, tommy waved him off saying never mind. regardless, after wilbur was called in, ninja backed off with the jokes. apart from this incident, tubbo, another minor on the dream smp, has said that he doesn’t liked being sexualized, and dream supported him on it. the other possibility is that the anons may have been referring to how dream has said he’s fine with being shipped with the dream team? in which case, this isn’t him saying he’s okay with being shipped with minors, the dream team consists of dream, sapnap, and george, all of whom are adults and have said they’re okay with it :) aside from this, people have a screenshot of dream saying “16 is legal in the uk” and have used that as proof of pedophilia, but if you watch the stream, you can hear that someone asks on the discord call what the age of consent is in the uk, and (i actually don’t know why he wasn’t speaking), this stream was a while ago, but everyone on the call answered with the same answer, that the age of consent was 16, and dream just answered it in chat

3. another thing is that dream has heavily defended the usage of the r-slur by neurotypicals in the past (i say past, but this was quite recent, around january of this year) saying that the word is offensive but the usage of it doesn’t necessarily make you a bad person. he hasn’t commented on this, but he himself is neurodivergent because he has adhd, so many people have mixed feelings about this situation because of that. he has apologized for his words multiple times since (reminder that if you’re not neurodivergent, it’s not your apology to accept though)

4. many people were upset with him for using the word lynching during a minecraft championship game. he says something about how people are cheating and they should be lynched, and though he meant it in a joking manner, many people were still (rightfully) upset about it due to the word’s history, and he has since apologized for it (reminder that if you’re not in the black community, it’s not your apology to accept though)

5. many people have come after dream for creating a parasocial relationship with fans, citing evidence such as how he says he loves them, encourages them to watch his and his friends streams, etc. i personally don’t agree with this one? stan culture was around long before dream and it’s going to be around for long after. it’s unfair to judge him for saying that he loves his fans or for encouraging his fans to watch his streams because at the end of the day, he is a content creator, streams are a part of that livelihood, and i feel like many creators and celebrities in the past and currently say that they love their fans and don’t typically get backlash for it?

6. the merch prices. his merch was incredibly overpriced, and though he’s apologized, it’s still,,, eh. people are very understandably still really mad about this one

7. his role in the smp! this is one that a lot of people (especially who aren’t really into the smp) misunderstand. watching the lives, it’s very easy to think that dream’s just an ass to those around him (for example, the clips going around where he’s just yelling at tommyinnit over minecraft discs). for those who aren’t aware, the dream smp is roleplay based and they are simply playing out a script most times :)

8. his similarity to c*y. nothing much else to say about this one. not really fair to judge someone just based off the fact that their faceless. corpse faced similar backlash because so many people are now wary of faceless youtubers due to that situation. you can be wary but in my opinion, i don’t think it’s fair to judge them

9. the behavior of his fans. this one i think is truly unfair to call him out for. dream team twitter and dream team tiktok do truly get out of control, but when it’s a real issue and it gets brought up to him, he has called it out in the past (for example, many dream fans started shitting on and hating on addison rae just because he interacted with her on twitter and she was receiving many hate comments for it, and when someone sent the screenshots to him, he called the behavior disgusting and embarrassing). twitter stans like to get the most random things trending but,, it is what it is, he has a big fanbase, most of whom are very young n think it’s funny to do things like spam keyboard smashes, and i don’t really think that’s something to berate your audience over.

that’s it from what i know, i’m sure i missed some stuff and for that i apologize. i personally don’t watch his content because it’s not my style, but he does frequently appear on the lives of other minecraft youtubers so this stuff pops up on my timeline quite a bit. i am,,, so sorry for such a long ask but i just wanted to provide people with context since a lot of people seemed confused so that they had full context when forming their opinions. if i’m incorrect on any of this, i hope that the other anons correct me as i want to be educated and informed. i’m in no way accepting any of his apologies for the stuff he’s said in the past because i’m not black nor neurodivergent so it’s not my apology to accept, i just wanted to say that he has addressed and apologized for the incidents. hope you all have a very good day and i’m sorry if any of this came off as rude or snappy.

I think I’ll add this to my masterlist too. Can you add more sources tho?

#Anonymous

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chemicalarospec · 4 years ago

Text

Genuinely Don’t Say Anything Interesting Here But I Like Talking So Thus I’m Posting This

okay I did like nothing productive today but have a ramble on youtube fanbases, specifically the new gen of mcyt. This was two posts and then I made it one so sorry when I repeat myself. I did edit it tho lol. But that means I also inserted more, so this is just all over the place now.

me from the future: oh god. all over the place. wait wtf this is so long. I don’t even have much to say I just like writing the same sentence three different ways and refusing to cut any of them. I’m sorry; I don’t know how to edit; this is informal AF. (can I use three semicolons? at least one of those is wrong anyways lol.)

edit: I’m so sorry I forgot about having a “read more” last night laksjdflksjad. Also idk if I even agree with myself lmao.

it’s so funny how mcyt is like The Thing now. It’s not cool to like it anymore lol, cuz everybody does. (This is a me thing. I like being special lol. I also self-define “cool” so you should not take it to heart when I say it’s not cool.)

I mean, just thinking about the Dream SMP as something I *do* want to get into, it doesn’t feel like “our thing” -- it’s has the feel of a HUGE fandom. Seriously, I’m in the phandom, which ngl has been dead since 2018, and the fanbase for the SMP has a much different, bigger feel. Idk what i’m getting at, it feels imposing? looking at the Dream SMP fandom seems similar in scope and slightly in atmosphere to pre-2019 phandom, at least to me, and it’s actually making me grateful that I joined now and not all that time ago.

Also I brought up the “our thing” bit because of the mcr post that goes “funny how MCR seems like our little secret and the biggest thing in the world at the same time” and I kinda thought that was just how all fandoms worked? idk I was going to assert that the truth is different but I thought some more and now I’m not sure.

but yeah I like the “our little secret” feel and somehow the phandom has (re)gained that while technoblade (and the new gen of mcyt as a whole) is loosing it.

I mean, I’ve been watching Technoblade since the bedwars winstreak. He had less than a millions subs but most people I brought him up to actually did know who he was. He was big but he wasn’t *famous* -- we all knew about him and we all cared. Like the only person who knew who he was and didn’t care had a little brother(s?) that loved him (wait why is this all in past tense this is all still true). (Yes AFC this has become a callout post for you mocking techno lol.) (If you’re still reading my miNeCRaFT yOuTuBeR fAnBaSe MEta. cringe culture is dead tho; I don’t have to say it like that.)

Anyways, I didn’t follow Technoblade’s Dream SMP streams and now I feel like I’d just be tagging along if I did get into it. (also didn’t watch SMP Earth lol.) This is because I’m a gate-keeping jerk. Or hate missing out. One of those two things.

(awkward transition where I don’t know how to make my tangent meaningful and have to make it back to the original train of thought I violently interrupted)

As a long time Techno fan, I’m really proud of the growth he’s experiencing, but a little sad too as the community is being -- well, I don’t want to say “infiltrated,” as I don’t want to shade anyone who was simply late to the party -- perhaps diluted? overwhelmed? yeah, overwhelmed by newer fans, and becoming “unmanageable” in a sense; it feels like we’ve lost a bit of our sense of community with the influx of new fans -- no shade to any new fans! This is just the way fandoms work. When the crowd is larger, it becomes harder recognize each member as a person, even if everything else is the same. (”The death of one man is a tragedy, the death of millions is a statistic.”) (look this is how my brain works deal with it)

I just really like this small community feel, and it’s a bit daunting looking at the smp fandom.

Also the growth Dream experienced this year is genuinely ludicrous. I mean, the wide appeal of shipping is part of it, not going to beat around that bush, but there’s just so much and I wanna read an essay from a long-time fan who saw it on why he’s got so much growth.

I really hate to shame fans and stuff, but part of it, at least for me, is that most of these new fans probably aren’t “minecrafters” like we were. I doubt the majority of them grew up on Stampy, DanTDM, and whatever the other ones I didn’t watch were. I mean, some of this is because Child. For them, the distinction is really pre-quarantine post-quarantine i guess? Really, whether they played Minecraft or not. Again, I know it’s bad to shame fans, but apparently I’m just a terrible person and I feel like it’s more shallow or disingenuous to get into MCYT when it’s popular without already being into Minecraft.

WAIT that’s it -- Minecraft community, as a whole, is special. It’s a LARGE umbrella of fandoms in general, but that’s the thing: they’re all more communities than fandoms -- from the casual builders to the pro parkour players to those who watched the og youtubers to those who followed the Great Potato War, there was Minecraft Culture.

And the expanded fandom that’s sprung up around the Dream SMP and possibly Dream in general (???) is more of fandom. It feels like a fandom. People treat it like a fandom, they talk about it in fandom spaces, it is fandom, a modern fandom. Not a quaint “little” Minecraft community.

I’m not going to say it’s because of the shipping, but... I have no data but at least I can say that it certainly creates an appeal for Fandom People as opposed to Minecraft People. And then also it’s just a fandom thing so it makes the space more fandom.

Also I realized this is all based upon a feeling, so where did the feeling come from? I was reading in-fandom texts a lot today, and I think the storyline actually might have something to do with it. Also maybe the “talking behind their backs”? I can’t be bothered to remember what I’m comparing to what at this point but that’s definitely done in a lot of other spaces I’m in, so idk.

OH FRICK I’ve mostly been *in* the fandom spaces for real things lmao. (Read: I’m 100% making up everything at this point.)

(awkward transition because I inserted the last two paragraphs later on)

And really, I played minecraft today for the first time in months. But it’s still with me, you know? The memories of being introduced to it, growing up with it. Going to the Nether with my cousins, my uncle’s giant survival mode cathedral. Mojang being bought by Microsoft and everybody hating it. (... me, my brother, my two friends, essentially... how did we even know??)

[I had part about the minecraft.net writers here but it was completely unrelated so it became it’s own post. I should do that more.]

(With every sentence the target audience of this post gets smaller.)

What was I saying? I’ll just wrap up.

TL;DR: Dream SMP fandom feels like a fandom and not a Minecraft community and while that’s not necessarily a bad thing, I’ve realized I prefer a community feel, which makes me grateful I joined the phandom now. Also I shouldn’t be allowed to post things past 9:00pm.

Oh my god I’m so sorry to all my mutrals. My tired loquacious reflex has kicked in. This is essentially a dan and phil stan blog, and though I know a few of you know what I’m going on about, I’m so sorry to the rest of you.

Well, at least *I* think I’m a fascinating person with interesting things to say hahahahha.

This is like a diary post. Should I post this? Yeah, other people should share my thoughts lol. OH NO: Late-night Tumblr fandom ramble posts are the new social-justice tirade/generally useless blog-like Goodreads reviews. At least it’s what Tumblr’s made for :P.

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landomuppet · 4 years ago

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Hello stranger from the Internet, I read your post about Lando and I have to let you know I feel the same. I would say to you that however you feel is valid and if you wish to continue to stan that's your choice (I will be continuing to stan). Basically I watched the stream live and it wasn't even a case of "boys will be boys" it was just some friends talking about relationships. I am a woman and I have said WAY more intimate things with my friends in jest about people we are seeing. I've said worse to my MUM than what the lads were saying the other night. I'm honestly completely baffled by the fallout created by this conversation. It feels like perhaps a lot of the peeps offended by this conversation might be on the younger side and perhaps havent had intimate relationships themselves and therefore don't necessarily know the language people use when talking with their friends about those relationships, it also feels like people in a certain type of social media bubble assuming everyone has had the same social justice education they have had. Also I've seen blatant lies, assumptions and misinformation spread about the conversation the lads had. I've seen comparisons to mazepin and more. It was just a silly chat between friends, fair enough it absolutely should not have been on stream in front of the 400 or so peeps who were watching at that time of night, but it's nothing like the thousands of viewers I've seen quoted on here. Anyway I guess I just wanted to say that you are 100% correct, everyone says stupid stuff, everyone makes jokes with their friends they regret, we hold these guys to impossible standards (particularly Lando) and theyre just humans, like the rest of us. So don't feel bad and don't delete your blog because of this!!!!

Hello anon from the internet! I wish I could go check out your blog.. but I respect your privacy and choice to remain anonymous. Although I don’t want to speak for other fans, their experiences, or why they have chosen to "cancel”/”stop supporting” Lando based on his comments, I agree that the comments show primarily poor judgement (in my opinion) versus genuine disrespect/hate for women.

I do acknowledge that comments made in poor judgement still have an impact and contribute to the continuation of misogynistic culture but I also think that we have to give people an opportunity to learn from mistakes. As long as those mistakes aren’t literal crimes... But regardless, thank you for giving me an extra little boost of support & as of right now I don’t plan on deleting the blog!

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fandomsconfuseme · 4 years ago

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I have been playing in my head with an idea for a fanfic (i actually never wrote fanfiction but oh well) and would love if any of you guys could tell me if you think i should try to write it!

Headcanon:

After It is defeated Richie is the one that goes to see Patty and explain everything and since every other loser is occupied doing something with their lives (Mike is traveling, Ben and Beverly are together and Bill goes back to his wife) they end up leaving Richie completely lost without realizing, so he becomes friends with Patty because they are both in a "what now?" moment in their lives. Patty finds out she is pregnant and Richie offers to be there to help.

Fast forward 9 months and Richie and Patty are trying to take care of this kid while having zero idea what they are doing. Bev is pregnant, Audrea is pregnant and Mike found a girl he really connected to in Florida, they got married and are now expecting twins. While Patty was pregnant Richie basically started going out and getting drunk in order to try to feel something beside numbness, having quick sex with any boy or girl that took his mind of his life. When the kid is born he stops drinking and straights up his life but by that time he got a model pregnant.

Fast forward 18 years and we have 6 adorable kids:

Anne Uris (18)

She grew up with Richie and Patty and basically became a mini Richie with better sense of style. She is the one that is always cracking jokes, is always ready to fight but can barely talk about her feelings. She plays a ton of instruments and dropped a lot of other ones, loves skating, is always wearing her dad shirts and t-shirts with some dark acessories, is confused about her sexuality but has supportive parents that tell her that at the end of the day she doesn't need labels and it doesn't matter and she is the first one to call people out on their bullshit (like Stan).

Samantha Tozier (17)

Richie got full custody of her when she was 4 because she is trans and her biological mother didn't "agree" with it so ended up becoming psychologically abusive. She is a ray of sunshine and is really similar to her mom (Patty). She is the nerd of the group, allways talking at the speed of light about some new subject she adores, she loves history (especially queer one), is totally a bookworm and an activist, loves studying cultures and learning new languages for fun (she is fluent in 5 but can understand a ton of other ones with a little bit of help). She also got Richie interest in sex (haha) and while she is in fact a virgin she is always reading smut and ends up being the one that teaches good sex education to the others and gives them shit about being safe and stds (like Eddie would). And while her sister is not the most touchy person ever her love language usually involves physical contact, they complete each other, are always doing stuff together and are also best friends.

Ruby Hanlon (17)

She is one of the popular kids, plays volley and really likes math and fashion. She sometimes gets involved with drama for the guys she chooses to get involved with (that are not always the best ones) but is a strong cookie and a feminist that would not turn on another girl for something a guy did. She is extravagant and loud and lovely to be around, she has friends from completely different circles and with completely different interests and its good at seeing people for who they truly are.

Theo Hanlon (17)

He is allways fighting with his sister and hates drama but is the first one to get involved to have her back. He is in the Track team and is always getting medals because he works hard and loves running. He is the person that is allways there if you need, loves hearing his friends rambling even if it's about something he knows Jack shit about and although he wouldn't admit it to his sister his family is one of the things he cares the most about. He is really popular with girls but has been in love with Samantha since they were little kids (she also loves him but they are just too dumb to realize each other feelings so everyone has to silently face palm themselves while they go on about how they won't say anything because they don't wanna ruin their friendship).

Adrian Hanscom (17)

Adrian is loud and vibrant, he is openly gay and having Bev as his mom means he can always have clothes that scream his personality, never apologizing for who he is. At first glance people might say that he just wants to have fun all the time and doesn't think about the future but he is actually the one that worries the most about which path he wants to take because he doesn't really know what he truly loves or wants to do with life. He likes to experiment and try new things and has a closer relationship with Ruby and they are two vibrant puzzle pieces that belong together.

George Denbrough (17)

He is the quiet kid, loves to dance and plans to do it professionally in the future. He is closer to Samantha and Anne but adores Adrian, and might have a little crush on him if you ask the others. He loves musicals and cats and has a laughter that is always louder than anyone in the room, he adores his younger sister (i didn't put her on the list because she is not exactly a main character but she is 5 or 6) but has a hard time connecting with his parents. He is the person that you would go to if you wanted to talk about your feelings without being judged and without them giving you advice in return.

Samantha has anxiety but is in therapy and talks openly and healthy about it. George is currently pretty much depressed but believes that since he doesn't think he is clinically depressed and he doesn't "have reason to be depressed" he shouldn't worry his parents about it. Ruby has a bad relationship with food that her friends are trying to help her with.

Ideally this would be a Fix it fic, the Tozier-Uris kids decide to research about Derry and their parents past because they wanna learn more about the people their parents love and end up finding things that Mike missed because of bad translations and lack of information available at the time. They decide to go back and try to save Eddie and Stan and the other kids get involved and go with them.

Another idea i played with in my head was Eddie having his sperm conserved as a way to try to delay Myra "requests" (more like manipulative behavior) to have kids, and Myra finding a way to use his sperm some years later because she is lonely (this would be HIGLY unethical but hear me out). And while researching about Eddie, Anne finds out about his kid and decides to find him because she believes he would be important if they are really using magic for this. She ends up finding a way to work as a babysitter for Myra but the kid doesn't really communicate a lot with other people and hates physical touch (i thought about making him autistic but i would have to learn more about the spectrum to portrait it accurately) and she is actually not that good with children. So one time when she tries to get close to him he basically has a meltdown and she calls Samantha who actually knows how to help and ends up getting close to the kid with time passing. From that point forward Samantha always goes with Anne and while Anne is researching about Derry, Pennywise and the Tuttle she is playing with the kid and starts building a strong relationship with him, teaching him what real family should feel like, not something overbearing and stressful but unconditional love, support and mutual understanding.

I don't know if i people would read this, specially since the main characters wouldn't be the Losers so please let me know your thoughts in the comments. Thank you :))

#reddie #it 2019 #it stephen king #It #richie tozier #richie trashmouth #Eddie kaspbrak #bill denbrough #stan uris #beverly marsh #ben hanson #mike hanlon #fix it fanfiction #Richiexeddie #I would really appreciate if you commented because i am super lost

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mousehole5000 · 4 years ago

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okay im rewriting tgcf (only in my head im lazy) here are my notes on hua/lian specifically this is long bc fuck it. major spoilers obviously and same trigger warnings as the content of the book

disclaimer disclaimer disclaimer that i dont know anything about the cultural background of anything in tgcf or story tropes etc etc this is just I Think It Would Be Neat If..

there’s not really any reason to keep hc as a kid in the backstory BUT in the story in the intro (which i like narratively) it still says that it was a child who xie lian caught. it’s one of those things that got added to the legend to make xie lian seem even more noble, there are also probably a few other inaccuracies in the intro that get found out as the story progresses. in actuality hc was kind of a known troublemaker to the city guards or whatever or had been in the past. maybe his mother just passed after a long illness and his tumble off the wall was intentional. either way he’s kind of pissed at xie lian for saving him. xie lian is concerned about his health so he has to stay at the palace for a while he recovers and only interacts with xie lian a few times. there is a point where he says out loud all the things about the divide between the rich and the poor that have been illustrated by the scenes with mu qing. feng xin tells him to shut up but mq goes dead silent bc he kind of agrees but can’t say and does have his loyalty to xie lian (its a whole thing) and the resentment begins

also i think young hc’s personality is similar to his personality in the present but a bit more reserved and he’s got like this plucky streak or something. also he is unquestionably gay

anyway hc sneaks out of the palace and xie lian catches him obviously but they have a brief little heart to heart where xie lian is like “look you can go if you want here take this money food” etc and demonstrates that he has actually listened to what hc has to say and hc is like “wow no one other than my mom has ever listened to me in my life so thats what that feels like i kind of like it” and he probably is a bit awestruck by xie lian in different ways and after that is like “okay this kingdom sucks but.. that guys not so bad”

sad ironic sense that if xie lian hadnt ascended until he was older he may have actually be able to do something about the problems in the kindgom but alas we have a cycle to perpetuate

the “take me as the meaning of your life” scene still happens p much the same but xl doesnt recognize hc who is actually now at his lowest point. hc tried to find ways to make things better for people like him but he simply did not succeed (maybe his were efforts quashed by the corrupt authorities? its implied probably) and he’s more disillusioned with the kingdom and life than ever but still is holding on to those memories of xie lian as proof that it doesnt have to be like this but that thread is slipping until!! whose fucking voice is that??? thats right its the one person you ever believed was truly good and went and proved you right by ascending to the heavens at age 17!!! guess its time to stan him forever

anyway hc joins the army but legally or whatever and tbh i would have hated the flower cave scene regardless of anything i just hate any sort of s*x pollen trope or anything so thats gone (they can have a wound tending scene or something tho thats the good shit) and instead we have HL getting overwhelmed by some other demons or something together and xie lian protects hc and they both get injured very badly (maybe hc would lose a limb but im not sure how that would work once hes a ghost so thats on hold for now until i figure it out) and xl is fine but this situation ends up being part of why mq kicks hc out of the army but yes hc still ends up dying on the battlefield anyway </3

the wuming stuff is the same i think but also at some point xl is despairing and says something about that guy he saved from falling and wonders what happened to him and fire ghost wuming is like !!!!! (wait does this happen in canon? honestly it should)

in mount tong’lu i was tempted to actually have hc have a similar moment to the bamboo hat scene with the humans who are trapped in there but im not sure if i just want it to be the same as xie lian’s story... also i like the idea of hc needing to hang onto his devotion to get through his first few centuries of being a ghost so maybe he’s just inspired by xie lian’s sacrifice with the sword and the souls and thats why he claws his own eye out as a sacrifice

so this can go one of two ways from here!!! both are me projecting hardcore so take them with a grain of salt im not saying im right about the way relationships should be these a re just my thoughts <3

1. (the not fun one but it still has a happy ending) the story more or less continues the same as canon. pure and simple devotion is what carries hc through the centuries. we get to see some ghost city antics and its fun but there is nothing complicated about the devotion hc just wants to find xl and protect him. hualian eventually meet. they get along pretty well!! eventually there are cracks. when you hold someone in your mind for so long you have expectations for them that no person can meet consistently. hc thinks that since he’s seen xl during the worst time in his life that he can handle anything but it turns out that as amazing as xl is, he is also just a person and sometimes he is wrong or irrational or annoying. xl is so happy to have someone who will listen to him talk that he kind of neglects to really get to know who hc is as a person and hc is kind of like “huh i didnt expect this but im kind of hurt. i genuinely thought that i just wanted to serve and protect you but actually im my own person and this is weird” but he doesnt say anything he thinks he has to stick to his promise and it gets kind of uncomfortable!! maybe his luck goes haywire bc his faith gets rocked for the first time ever and they end up having to talk it out but their relationship is stronger for it <3

2. (i think this one is fun) hc struggles with waiting. he does it but its hard. he has doubts and when all his efforts to find xl are fruitless he starts to grow bitter and curses the day that xl saved him. his faith burns low but doesnt go out. then ghost city!! hc realizes that he can finally help people like him, even if theyre ghosts now and hes grateful for the chance to do this and grateful to xl and resigns himself to waiting. but its still hard!! he realizes that his luck is tied to his devotion and gets kind of pissed about it!!! he tries to remember all the good things about xl but its hard!!! his search becomes more about repaying a debt so he can be free than anything else, he just wants to help the common people spirits with no strings attached (this actually allows him to keep his luck bc he has the same wish as xl and thats what makes him a true believer!! is this corny? does it make sense? i dont care) and so eventually when he finds xl he’s like okay how quickly can i repay this debt/how can i keep my powers but then xie lian is... so good... and hc actually really likes him he remembers why he swore his devotion in the first place. now hes conflicted!!! dont worry they fall in love tho <3

wow this was really long if you read this hiiiii. anyway when i reread ill try to pay more attention to yin yu and he xuan for hc’s 800 years. hua cheng we’re gonna get you some friends and lore i swear to god

#agenda on the whole: hc character exploration #more ling wen and she gets a gf #i am making fq so fucking canon #sqx also gets a gf it is not [redacted]#less pm less qr #more lady rainmaster esp relevance wrt to agriculture!! it affects so much!!!#mouse mumbles #tgcf textp #move

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honey-and-strawberry · 4 years ago

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We are talking about the same person! Omg! Yes that one is absolutely on the path to saesang! At first they were pretty nice but to even go so far as to buy the expensive ass clothes/accessories he wears!? Thats fcking weird, period. Yeah I may like somethings they wear, clothes or accessories wise (Shownu's Capteen Bvlgari set 😍 gorgeous!) But I'm not going to go out and buy the stuff! All while updating lil gremlins on the process/dilemma!

Granted I love Burberry, I have painfully expensice taste and a painfully empty bank account, and if I could afford it I'd have a few pieces in my collection. However I liked Burberry well before I saw any of the guys wearing the brand endorsements, heck I liked it before I even knew about Monsta X!

I actually got some broadcast pcs from them and never again. I am firmly against GOs cause it takes to damn long to get the stuff and has a higher risk of the package getting lost or damaged due to being shipped via individual instead of a comapny. And broadcast pcs? I have another individual I think I'll contact for broadcasts instead from now on.

And like... knowing their job, how tf do they afford that expensive stuff.. all the time!? There's no way unless they are/were independently wealthy beforehand or their family just kinda throws money at them... no normal foreigner in their job position could afford to buy all the stuff they do (I've my research for both study and work in SK for myself as someone who loves the culture and history amd wants a better understanding just to be clear on my interests, its not for my faves).

Which hey cool, that's their business for how they spend their money but parading that around sns is so suspicious and an elitists mentality and just... shitty (no other word for it tbh). And they suck the random 1 or 2 album purchase fans that win fansign/video calls into the lil elite group thing and suddenly that individual gets into the events all the time with their "sponsor" asshat, to borrow your wording.

Also I used the wrong signature with that first ask 😆 but yeah Suni's GIF and Sus anon is the same person 🤣 I contemplate A LOT about fandoms it seems

I’m not surprised we’re taking about the same person, she’s a big name in Twitter mbb i noticed 🙄 she annoys me so much with her victimizing behavior like she’s always like “oh my god someone says I need to tone it down with the fansign stuff how dare they 😭 I deserve the fansign as much as anyone else” omg stahp you’re embarrassing. It’s very interesting how the fans act like stans where if you talk bad about the GO host then we’re gonna drag you like ?????? what does that solve?

I also like Burberry but that’s long before I knew of Mx, but I always thought of Burberry as rich Vermont fashion 😂

I participated in a group order because the website I was ordering from was giving me a hard time to purchase internationally. Another group-ish order I participated in was back when twotuckgom was like 75% off and I managed to get a zizi WAY cheaper than I would anywhere else but it was from one person who did a few orders for friends, so it was different. I’m still never going to do a GO again because I got suspicious over the draw of the fansign happening long before I got the product. I looked at who got into the fansign and I recognized her name as well as her friends. You can’t convince me otherwise. I totally agree that they must be independently wealthy in order to afford buying signed merch and all of these fansign tickets and albums. Not everyone could afford that and it’s ridiculous that only a handful of people could afford to buy in bulk (but then they try to sell their extra albums and it’s so funny how they bump up the price like +++)

Omg what I hate is when they sell their signed albums like three times more than they originally got them for and people still fucking buy it. What I hate even more is when fans get signed albums and they’re like “boooo I didn’t get my bias 😭 I don’t want this album anymore” 🖕🏼

I saw that people were selling the Mx dolls on eBay for like more than twice they were selling for and it’s embarrassing. I will never sell my babies, I really hope doll makers produce more! But not just the Mx dolls but any kpop doll they would sell them for like 40+ bucks but in reality I ordered them for like 28 😬 (shipping wasn’t bad but it still didn’t make it 50+ in total)

#hi sweet sweet anon 🥺#👋🏼👋🏼👋🏼#suni told me some blogs blocked her after she criticized some fans and I’m convinced they’re in on the scam #there is one blog in particular that blocked her and ever since then I don’t look at them the same way cause that’s too suspicious

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hellzyeahwebwielingessays · 5 years ago

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Super Heroes ARE NOT INHERENTLY a Conservative power fantasy

Master Post

I don’t really agree superheroes are inherently a Conservative power fantasy nor that they simplistically preach law and order and justice are necessary for a happy ending.

After all Superman was fighting corrupt politicians in his very first appearance. The X-Men are institutionally persecuted often by government forces. Stan Lee did an entire story arc in refutation to Law and Order politics in the early 1970s.

Yeah, they hit people to save the day but like...I honestly think that’s far more of a human power fantasy than something of any specific ideology. There have been examples of mythic and folklore figures doing that since forever. The broad appeal of those types of characters throughout history and across political ideologies speaks to how it’s not inherently a political power fantasy of one type or another.

I know someone who is incredibly Liberal and has himself and people he’s known been persecuted by the police and he’s outspoken against such institutional persecution. He loves Daredevil and more poignantly the Punisher, a character outright adored by the police themselves but who is near universally framed (even within his own stories) as not a good person and someone you shouldn’t aspire to be like. This was even the case in his debut in Daredevil season 2 where it was made explicit that he is self-destructive.

Obviously my friend would be disgusted by the Punisher in real life, as would we all (I’d hope). But the fantasy is still unto itself appealing despite it conflicting with his ideologies. Hence super heroes are not a power fantasy rooted in a specific political ideology. Now sure that is one anecdotal piece of evidence. But the Punisher is clearly very, very popular and the degree to which he is popular (especially in the 1990s) wouldn’t really add up if his fanbase were predominantly Conservatively leaning people with the occasional Liberal exception.

He’s very obviously a character people of either leaning or in-between enjoy and was after all created by an outspoken young Liberal in Gerry Conway. Batman too is often perceived as very conservative. But he is the most popular superhero ever so he obviously appeals across political ideologies. After all, the two most defining Batman writers (after Bill Finger) were the incredibly Conservative Frank Miller and the incredibly Liberal Denny O’Neil.

I also don’t think super heroes are analogous to stand your ground myths. For starters, super heroes are not enshrined by the law. The closest comparison you could draw is if you encountered a clear cut crime in progress and intervened non-lethally somehow. E.g. that scene in Spider-Man 2 where Peter Parker walks away from a mugging in progress, but for the purposes of what I’m saying actually tried to intervene.

I once received counterpoints to the above view that went something like this:

You are extrapolating specifically European myth created by white males and applying it to all humans. African myths are different. Native American myths are different. Asian myths are different. You’re making my point that comics are a dominant conservative culture - specifically white male - fantasy, not refuting it.

Actually I wasn’t. There examples of such figures in Eastern myths too such as Sun Wukong. Son Goku is a 1980s manga character based first and foremost upon him (and Jackie Chan) and is a veritable institution in Japan. There is a vast crossover between fans of him and fans of other superhero characters despite him not being directly based upon any of them, having distinctly Eastern cultural influences and also not being a crime fighter in the traditional sense.

Goku in truth is probably more comparable to figures like Theseus in spite of not being based or influenced by him. African myths and European myths may be different but most cultures involve figures who have beyond human abilities and among those figures those who engage in actions that, within the values of those cultures, are regarded as good. All human beings are innately attracted to stories that in one shape or form present them as physically more powerful than they are, a by-product of more innate survival instincts. On our absolute most deepest levels we are animals and because of this the fantasy of being stronger, faster, less vulnerable to injury or malnutrition and/or having the ability to defend our homes/territories/family units (which in superhero comics is usually extended to the general population of a native city) is incredibly potent and attractive.

The counter pointer continued:

“It’s not a female fantasy. Women tell very different myths, most of them lost because men wrote down the stories. The romance genre is dominated by female writers because those are the stories women are drawn to tell.”

Given the vast plethora of female fans of the genre from 1938-now I really do not see how we can honestly say this is a genre that is particular to the power fantasy of one gender or another. Wonder Woman was after all a distinctly female power fantasy created with a lot of input from two women very much ahead of their time.

But going into another culture Sailor Moon (and her predecessor Sailor V, who was more of a traditional crime fighter) was arguably even more of a female power fantasy. She was the singular vision of a female mangaka who was aiming at a young female audience and was very specifically creating a female power fantasy. In both cases they are people with secret identities who engage in physical violence to varying degrees against very clearly coded evil individuals who pose direct threats to innocent lives.

Now about the gun debate? Well, most superheroes use guns?

But for the sake of argument let’s extent ‘guns’ to mean stuff like:

Ray guns

Web-shooters

Firing concussive energy blasts, like Cyclops’ optic blasts

Any kind of projectile

Well, even if you define guns like that, the majority of superheroes’ weapons are non-lethal whereas guns are designed specifically to kill. Yeah you can wound or incapacitate but gun wounds can still be lethal or crippling. Plus you could in theory kill someone with a net but that wasn’t what it was designed to do.

Things get iffy if we count biological weaponry, like in Cyclops’ case. Whilst his super power is literally having a powerful gun for his eyes, it’s also part of who he is and he’s got no choice in that. This changes the context drastically from someone who owns a gun and seeks to use it.

In Cyclops’ case he’s forced to own that weapon and it’s an immense burden upon him . It curtails his ability to have physical and emotional intimacy with others the way anyone else would. I anything I’s more analogous to a disability. So it isn’t like this is a wonderful fantasy about how cool it’d be to own a big gun without the burden of choosing to own it in the first place

That doesn’t even make sense considering the real issue regarding American gun laws ultimately isn’t about people merely owning guns but how they use them upon owning them. Cyclops still has to choose how to use his biological ‘big gun’ even if he didn’t get a choice in owning it one way or the other. It’s also a poor analogy considering Cyclops’ ‘Big Gun’ doesn’t even work properly due to a disability he has.

In fact, it’s posited superheroes are needed, especially vigilante heroes like Spider-Man who take law enforcement into their own hands despite being outside the law enforcement establishment, because the Marvel U is a dangerous, violent place. This is very similar to arguments used by conservative gun advocates in the US: we need guns to protect ourselves because our institutions can’t. Moving on let’s talk about the severity of crime. Is it not a Conservative power fantasy that the world of Marvel and DC comics is a dangerous and violent place? And therefore vigilantes who take the law into their own hands are needed?

That’s kind of similar to what Conservative gun advocates argue isn’t it? Guns are needed to protect one’s self.

Well for starters, the nature of the severity of crime is questionable in most Marvel or DC comics sans like Batman. It is made clear that superheroes absolutely do good but at the same time it wasn’t presented as though there was such a massive crime problem that say Marvel New York would’ve fallen apart without them.

That is exempting of course super villains.

Super villains however are cut from the same fantasy cloth as the heroes so how much to they really count towards representing real life concerns over crime anyway? They were after all literally created as a means to challenge the heroes. Action Comics #1 for example didn’t have any super villains.

Similarly modern interpretations of Batman do not seek to present the world or urban landscapes in general as inherently so riddled with dangerous crime that it necessitates Batman. They make it clear that Gotham is this extreme exception as opposed to the rule. Greg Rucka once spoke about this in an old documentary (for I think the History channel).The idea is that Gotham is exceptionally bad thus they need Batman.

In most versions of Superman post-1987 Lex Luthor has such a stranglehold on Metropolis that it needs Superman. And in Golden Age versions of Superman he was presented as just tackling general urban crime that existed amidst the Great Depression, most of which stemmed from organized crime or corrupt political figures. But it wasn’t as though Metropolis was on the brink if not for Superman’s intervention.

Really the levels of crime and such that exist in superhero stories exist purely to justify a superhero being a crime fighter in the first place; it’s a practicality issue not an ideological one. I think this is different to say police TV shows or films that present characters who allegedly exist in the real world, who represent real world police officers who do a real world job that involves them interacting with allegedly real world threat levels. In a superhero story, of course t here is more crime that actually exists in the real world but I don’t think anyone making the stories ever honestly thought otherwise or paid much thought to it one way or the other. It was just a means to an end of challenging the protagonists.

Okay, but how about the fact that heroes rarely (if ever) calling for gun control or gun bans? Surely that is a Conservative.

Well no not really. Again, it’s not really an ideologically driven factor in super hero stories. It’s more akin to how superhero comic books just do not touch for example the issue of abortion or how they rarely make it truly explicit what political leanings a character has one way or the other.*

John Byrne when discussing his iconic Superman run stated he felt the character was a card carrying Republican, but to the best of my knowledge no Superman comic before or since has ever come out and said that. No Punisher story to my knowledge has ever stated Punisher is a Conservative in spite of the fact that he obviously is. No Spider-Man story has stated Spider-Man is a Liberal/left leaning moderate. And yet he has been depicted that way in most stories and it’d just be incredibly likely given his age, where he lives and his family background. I don’t even know if any Captain America story has stated clearly and without question that Cap would obviously vote for the Democrats 100% of the time out of the two major parties, even though he was explicitly Liberal from the very first piece of artwork depicting him. In ne of Bucky’s early adventures as Captain America though he simultaneously protected Democrat and Republican politicians.

So whilst superhero comics do not involve characters calling for the abolition of guns 99% of the time, that’s less because they are or are not a Conservative power fantasy and more because the companies do not want to touch what they at least perceive as an incredibly volatile issue.

If the gun debate in America (which to me shouldn’t even be a debate, just get rid of them) ever moves to a place where there is virtually nobody opposing the abolition of guns most superheroes would absolutely be depicted in support of that.

To strip back everything I’m saying, super heroes are intended more on, and consumed more on, a symbolic level than something in line with a particular ideology.

They are vigilantes who fight crime. But it’s understood that the crime is in the story simply because it is universally understood as ‘a bad thing’ that can cause harm and damage. The superhero is you. You being a vigilante symbolises how you have to on an individual level deal with a problem, the ‘bad thing’.

And the super powers are the catharsis of how much easier it would be to deal with the ‘bad thing’ if you were more than what you are.

I don’t agree with 100% of this, but this video (which is interesting unto itself) touches upon this idea around the 15:30 mark.

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It’s not as though a Liberal enjoys the genre for the escapism or the perverse indulgence in politics they wouldn’t agree with whilst a Conservative just loves it’s reaffirmation of their beliefs.

They love it for the same reasons and those are usually rooted in the human elements of the characters alongside the power fantasy. Which is why I maintain there is an innate human appeal to the genre regardless of what perspective you come at it from.

I mean Jesus, if we are really going to argue that superheroes are a Western Conservative power fantasy why have countries with anti-Western values, countries that American Conservatives are heavily in opposition to, devoured the genre on film?

Why is the MCU outright beloved in China?

Why have they tried to create their own super heroes in a similar vein?

Because these characters are not a Conservative, or a white, or a male power fantasy. They are just a human power fantasy.

*And contrary to what people who are hardline on one ideology or another think, not opposing an issue isn’t tantamount to supporting it. Neutrality exists. If you support abortion that’s Liberal stance on the issue. If you oppose gun control that’s a Conservative stance on that issue. If you do not care about them one way or another you ware not expressing a Liberal or Conservative view point.

The whole ‘With us or against us’ viewpoint is absolutely myopic and overly simplistic. By this logic America was supportive of Hitler before they joined the Allies in WWII. But they were also supportive of the Allies because they weren’t supporting the Axis powers either.

Neutrality can exist.

#MCU #marvel cinematic universe #Marvel #Marvel Comics #DC #DC Comics #Superman #Batman #John Byrne #Cyclops #Scott Summers #X-Men #Bruce Wayne #Clark Kent #Frank Miller #Denny O'Neil

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