#mxtx does this thing in mdzs where she will have one character say one thing and then have the facts be the exact other

[undercover-stories]

Wei Ying didn't 'break' Jiang Yanli's engagement to Jin Zixuan. Their fathers did, and no, it wasn't because Wei Ying started a fight with Jin Zixuan. It was because he brought to the surface the truth, which was the clear contempt Jin Zixuan had at the idea of being trapped in a marriage with Yanli. Jiang Fengmian broke it because he realized that Wei Ying was right. He couldn't let his daughter marry someone who obviously didn't want her and more importantly might fail to protect her the way a husband should especially since as a woman in ancient china, the person 'responsible' for her would be her husband and her husbands family. He knows what it's like to have constant internal conflict with your partner, and he didn't want Yanli to face that with her own.

Not to mention, it was only through the break of the engagement, and Yanli ceasing her acts of affection during the sunshot campaign did Jin Zixuan finally take notice of her.

The only person person who blamed Wei Ying was Madam Yu Ziyuan because of her prominent and unfair hatred towards Wei Ying. Just like the way she blamed him for the Wens attacking the Jiangs when no, the blame of that attack lies solely on the Wens. Blaming a kids actions as being the cause of inciting conflict is Dictatorship 101. It didn't matter what the Jiangs did. The Wens would have attacked them regardless, especially since Madam Yu refused to lower herself the way the Wens wanted her to. The way Wang Lingjiao was trying to. Blaming Wei Ying for the Jiang Massacre would be like blaming the destruction of Gusu by the Wens on Lan Zhan for trying to protect the library. The only ones to be blamed for all the destruction are the Wens. No one else.

[withthewindinherfootsteps]

???

Both WWX and LWJ are highly ideal characters, so there wouldn’t be too much dispute on their moral standing. They’re perfect as the protagonists.  - MXTX's end notes (chapter 113.5), EXR translation

I'm not one to say word of the author is word of god – I definitely lean more towards Death of the Author in that regard. But an important part of that is that you look at what happens in the novel – and, from WWX's actions in the novel, it's pretty clear that this is supposed to be the case. Even if you don't agree with that statement, there's no doubt that acting on his morals is something extremely important to him, and those morals lean heavily towards doing the "right thing" in his perception. That is not "neutral".

Examples of this: WWX was not killed for being the only person to do the right thing and defend the Wen remnants for people to say he's chaotic neutral. He didn't risk his life alongside LWJ to protect both innocents and people who participated in the first Siege, during the second. He didn't go to save Su She from the Waterborne Abyss (at no personal gain), defend Mianmian (at no personal gain), join LWJ in going wherever the chaos is post-canon when they night hunt (despite preferring more difficult, exiting ones – though of course, spending time with LWJ plays a very large role in here too!), etc and do so many other things in the novel, for people to say he's chaotic neutral. He doesn't say this for no reason:

"But, let the self judge the right and the wrong, let others decide to praise or to blame, let gains and losses remain uncommented on." - Chapter 75, EXR

He says it because it's an important part of his philosophy (it fits with his actions, and, from a writing standpoint, would you include that with no indication of a lie otherwise?)! Because judging the right thing, and doing the right thing, is important to him! That's not chaotic neutral!

"He does whatever he wants pretty consistently" well... yes? That is how decisions work? Morality isn't determined by whether you act independently or adhere to other rules – that's where chaotic and lawful come in, but not evil or good. If you do what you want to do, and what you want to do is help people, that's not neutral! It's good!

There's more to the tags, but I won't go into that right now since it's a different point. I would like to say that are multiple posts talking about how WWX doesn't just act disrespectfully/arrogantly for no reason (he knew he'd have to "keep his status in mind" if he wanted to run wild, he was hardly the only person being rowdy and breaking rules in Gusu yet nobody says the same about people like NHS or JC who did that too, post-SSC he was playing up these traits so nobody would look deeper into his reasons for things, ie not having his GC, etc. He enjoys running wild, yes, but it doesn't mean he does it mindlessly!), such as the one I just reblogged, because that's a point that needs adressing here as well. Please don't try to search up these tags and harrass anybody, as it only leads to harm – I just really, really disagree with this take. The WWX of MDZS is neither stupid nor chaotic neutral...

[mxtxfanatic]

Another pro-reader tip for mxtx novels: they are all stories with clear-cut good guys and bad guys and a strong moral message, BUT you have to actually read what the story has to say about characters without taking anything at face value, relying on genre tropes, or using identities and statuses as shorthand to your understanding of the moral system and themes of the story. So no, most characters in her stories are not morally gray (though some are, most can be definitively categorized as either morally good or bad, and ALL of her main characters are definitively morally good), and no she does not write morally gray plots where “morality is just subjective!” If anything, the term I think people are looking for is “morally neutral” (meaning that the thing is not assigned a morality in and of itself) in many cases.

An mxtx character is never designated as good or bad based off their backgrounds or class: Wei Wuxian, Jin Guangyao, Shen Jiu, and Mu Qing all grow up outside of the elite class, but Mu Qing (eventually) and Wei Wuxian are unquestionably good guys while Jin Guangyao and Shen Jiu are unquestionable villains. Shen Yuan, Lan Wangji, and Xie Lian all grow up within the gentry class but are all good guys while Jiang Cheng, Jun Wu, and The Old Palace Master are bad. Likewise, life circumstances or tools don’t determine morality. In mdzs, the sword path (which is the orthodox one) is used to commit genocide by the general cultivation world just as easily as Lan Wangji wields it to protect the forsaken commoners. Wei Wuxian’s ghost path was created to protect himself before being used to protect others, but Xue Yang and the Jin Clan pervert it to cause mass destruction for their own wishes. In tgcf, Xie Lian uses his god powers to attempt to help the Yong’an people while the other gods simply collect worshippers to increase their power and oppress lesser gods. Every character I’ve listed minus the Old Palace Master has experienced intense trauma that has informed their lives and colors their morality, but it does not define why they have chosen to take on certain moral stances.

(This is not to say that mxtx doesn’t have certain tropes she dislikes, as she clearly hates the “dedicate their whole existence completely to another person” trope. Su She, a villain dedicated to Jin Guangyao, dies. Zhuzhi-lang, a sympathetic antagonist dedicated to Tianlang-jun, dies. Hua Cheng, A WHOLE LOVE INTEREST dedicated to the literal main character, dies a whopping three (3) times before he learns his lesson.)

Mxtx does not condemn those who stray from orthodoxy. In fact, every story she’s (currently) written is about the dangers of entrenched and unquestioned hierarchy and status quo giving way to corruption every time. She wants you to question the dominant narrative of the benevolent group who descend from on high to “save the ignorant masses.” She wants you to question the idea that the only people with the right of choice are those at the top of the hierarchy. She wants you to question the idea that even the smallest decision of “powerless” people does not matter in “the grand scheme of things.” She wants you to actually think about the story conventions that you accept as infallible and question whether or not it would make for good shorthand by which to understand well-written characters and story arcs (and also, hopefully, how society is structured at large). So if you find yourself reading an mxtx novel and siding with the mob characters or lamenting how x character was locked into making certain choices “against their will” or being unable to reconcile how a recognized trope led to an unexpected conclusion because “that’s not how it’s supposed to go,” then it may do you some good to stop and ask yourself “was this idea supported by the narrative that I read in the book, or is this an idea I’ve come to entirely from my own preconceived notions of how I wanted the story to turn out based on how other, similar stories have panned out?”

[veliseraptor]

Inspired by 'it's not love, it's obsession': what are your thoughts on the parallels between Luo Binghe and Xue Yang?

oooh this is a fascinating one.

One of my favorite things about looking at MXTX's books as a corpus of work taken together is the ways in which you can see her evolving as a writer. I don't necessarily mean stylistically (I don't feel like I can speak to that, since I can't read the original), or even necessarily narratively (though I do think TGCF is the strongest narratively, for all it's probably longer than it needs to be). What I really mean is how you can see her coming back to the same themes over and over and exploring them with variations and shades of difference. There are very clearly things that are MXTX Concerns, as it were, that she revisits and echoes and plays with in all of her works; questions about justice and the cycle of violence are one big one that I've thought a lot about personally.

And when you're looking at the three books together, there are places where you can draw throughlines - for instance, from Yi City > Black Water Arc, or from (arguably) Xiao Xingchen > Xie Lian. In light of the trivia that Yi City comes at least in part from an older, abandoned story MXTX worked on when she was younger (per an interview with her, I believe), I feel like you can draw the line from Xue Yang > Luo Binghe as far as some of the tropes being played with. Xue Yang is (in some ways) an echo of Luo Binghe is an echo of an older story that had a character who may or may not have been named Xue Yang.

In obvious ways Xue Yang takes a different position in the story he ends up in than Luo Binghe does in his (he ends up an antagonist), but while one could look at the Song Lan/Xue Yang/Xiao Xingchen trio and posit Xiao Xingchen and Song Lan as the intended pair of whatever original story they came from, that doesn't, in my eyes, fit with the other relationships MXTX chooses to write. Xue Yang lives at a nexus of a lot of the things MXTX pokes at with Luo Binghe and, yes, Wei Wuxian, but also (to a lesser degree) Hua Cheng - the legacy of childhood violence, the importance and weight of small kindnesses in changing a person, the probing at the idea of people as irredeemable or incapable of change (and finding it lacking).

He comes from a disadvantaged, marginalized background (as do the other two protagonists) and, despite perpetrating atrocious acts of violence (Wei Wuxian actually, Luo Binghe less so in SVSSS canon but explicitly so in PIDW, which is the way Shen Qingqiu relates to him initially), kind treatment from a single person having a deep impact on their behavior. There's also the quality of deep, obsessive devotion, notably beyond death, that Xue Yang shares with Luo Binghe, Lan Wangji, and Hua Cheng (portrayed in the latter two cases as clearly and explicitly romantic and to be valued). Xue Yang doesn't occupy a protagonist role in MDZS (obviously), but he has some of those thematic qualities that tend to pop up in MXTX protagonists and/or love interests.

(Hua Cheng might stand out here, and he is different, certainly, but I would point to the very, very early identification of him as inherently ill-fortuned and bad to be around. Xue Yang has TGCF echoes, I'd say, to a lesser extent in Hua Cheng than in Jun Wu, but I don't think the echoes are absent from Hua Cheng, either.).

This positions Xue Yang, potentially, as (if we're using a crude metaphor) a little bit the Luo Binghe to Xiao Xingchen's Shen Qingqiu, with Song Lan potentially occupying more of a Yue Qingyuan place (but of course that's just speculation and we'll probably never know).

This is a lot of tl;dr but I guess the main thing I'm thinking about here is that while it's I think shallow to describe Xue Yang as a proto-Luo Binghe (or rather, ur-Xue Yang from that older story as), I think it's fair to see that relationship between the two characters as part and parcel of MXTX's revisiting, revising, and reconsidering the same themes over and over again in her work - in the same way, I think, that within the same story Wei Wuxian's parallels with both Xue Yang illustrate that same impulse. (And not, to be clear, as a simple "this one good, this one bad" morality tale; what MXTX is doing with her parallels is, I daresay, more interesting than that.)

anyway, there you have it. I feel like this went maybe a little left of what you were asking (maybe you wanted me to talk about the actual parallels in terms of character?) but this is a sub-category of that subject I personally find very fun to think about.

[tavina-writes]

i find it extremely funny that we (mxtx fandoms in general but mdzs especially) will get into huge shouting matches about timelines and research and accuracy and meanwhile she was like "the death of the nie bros' dad, an event extremely important to explaining the buildup to the war that affected literally every single member of the cast, could have happened anywhere in these five whole-ass years" and "yeah they totally had potatoes don't worry about it lol". truly airplane was an autobiographical character.

You know nonny, I DO find this intensely funny at times. My uh, main source of "shaking my head at this" happens when inevitably, meta goes around and we rush back and forth going "X WAS A GOOD PERSON" and "X WAS EVIL! EVIL!" etc, which happens every now and again and always makes me a bit like "ah, yes, it's difficult to convey nuance and also differing points of view that may in whole or in part also be legitimate and valuable to discuss on a place like tumblr/the internet in general because it is difficult to grapple with uncertainties and we often want to nail things down one way or another so we can figure out if we're right or not" <- but this often comes out as me writing a joke post. Or a saltier post than I intended. Sometimes because I'm tired and sometimes because I just happen to be a salty individual on main.

And I do think fandom is a place where like, multiple interpretations of an event or a statement or a character's "morality" and themes and choices are often equally valid. And fandom should be a place for that, that's what makes fandom fun. If there was a One True Interpretation of the text there'd be no need for interpreting text at all, and that's distinctly sad for me. That's no fun. Anyone who tries to use their knowledge to cudgel people into the One True Interpretation is wrong, btw.

Though I think, and here's where I feel that research and accuracy is a nuanced thing and should actually be of consideration for meta/fic/engaging with fandom in general, and why perhaps people strive for it -- the "lol, potatoes" and "poetry from whatever era I want" is fun! MXTX, however, is still writing about a fantasy version of her own culture, which offers along with it a foundational basis of knowledge that makes this...easier? And again, here's where the part of me that does enjoy these anachronisms and inaccuracies (because they're fun and since we have flying swords why not potatoes) wars with the part of me that's also like, "okay but there is a difference between 'not knowing enough to be respectful of the background surrounding the characters and why that might inform their actions' and 'I've decided that peppers, which did not exist in Eurasia prior to the Columbian Exchange are a big thing here now.'" The difference is respect. Different members of fandom will draw this line in different places and it hits different on different days.

And this is one of the struggles of engaging with foreign language media a lot of the time - we try to strike a balance between engaging with it based on our own experiences and backgrounds and not accidentally saying anything offensive or strange or 'that would totally never happen' or 'he would not fucking talk like that' and I've found, with my time in this fandom, most people who are concerned with accuracy and research are largely trying to be respectful and avoid such gaffes.

Over the two or so years I've been here, I've also reacted to people who've insisted their interpretation is the correct one when it was definitely a case of 'the version Chinese culture that I'm familiar with 200% does not work like that', and saltily wandered off to vent about how 'this is inaccurate and also rude' or try to explain why it wouldn't happen like that. Maybe this comes off as preachy at times, or overly concerned with "accuracy," but that is typically where that sort of reaction comes from for me. I expect this is probably true for other people as well!

And by no means like, do we only engage in fandom because we want to be educated or educate others, and by no means is that an obligation of any fic writer or meta writer or casual fandom goer. We engage with media because it engages us, and we engage with fandom because we love community, and sometimes its no more complex than that.

I enjoy research and art history so that's typically why this appears in my fic, and I started out on doing it to better connect with my own heritage, which I've found more important to me as I've gotten older, so that's where it comes from for me.

Apologies nonny, this was probably not the answer you were looking for and I do commiserate, I'm just chronically unable to be funny on main. 😔

TLDR: there's always nuance in everything unfortunately. Even if this is the no nuance webbed site.

[joys-of-everyday]

Wei Wuxian and the Difficulties of Morality

Wow so I did not realise how much discourse there was around Wei Wuxian and moral greyness. Let me erm… poke around a little because that’s a hobby of mine.

Btw, I usually write about SVSSS. This won’t change. This is a one-off thing (for now).

Firstly, an Anecdote

Fun story, I watched cql and the mdzs donghua with my mum. There were many memorable things that came out of this, but one of the relevant points is an offhanded comment from my mum. She said (translated into English): ‘Wei Wuxian has no face to show Jiang Cheng, because he broke his promise to stay by his side’ (1). For context, my mum grew up in a fairly traditional Asian household. They take their declarations of loyalty seriously (or at least, that is my impression).

I find this interesting, because when it comes to moral judgement, I (who grew up in the west, with a lot of western values) get far more hung up on the things WWX did, rather than some promise he made in his adolescence. Breaking a promise is not ideal, but in my books, doesn’t really count as a huge moral failing.

The point here is not to say anything about the ethics of promise breaking, but to illustrate a point. Different people have different values. Or one person can have conflicting values. There are many scenarios where it’s not possible to say with certainty what is right or wrong. This is moral ambiguity.

(Funnily enough, the issue that my dad took with WWX was the fact he was fiddling around with dead bodies, which was like… the least of my concerns, but then I realised that bodies have a lot of religious significance.)

What even is moral greyness?

There are two possible and equally valid definitions of moral greyness.

1. Characters who are not 100% evil or 100% good

2. Characters who do not fall into the categories of ‘good’ or ‘bad’.

Note that definition 2 is a strictly stronger definition than definition 1. It is not that hard to argue that WWX does not fall under definition 2, in that he is somehow overall ‘good’. (I would also argue that MXTX encourages you to not think too hard about these dichotomies, particularly via SVSSS, but that’s a rabbit hole for another day.) It is also not that hard to argue WWX does fall under definition 1. Mainly because it’s quite hard not to breathe without falling under definition 1.

The Two Kinds of Uncertainty  

When it comes to ethical questions, there are two uncertainties you naturally run into. Firstly, uncertainty of the world, which comes from having imperfect information about the situation or consequences of any given action. Secondly, uncertainty around the underlying moral question. Is it okay to sacrifice few for the sake of many? Should we place more value on those close to us in comparison to a stranger?

Humanity has not figured out morality, and certainly not for a lack of trying. Standards change over time. We look at the behaviour of our ancestors just a few hundred years ago with no small amount of repugnance. Most likely, in a few hundred years’ time our descendants will do the same. This isn’t to pass judgement on anything or anybody, but to make an observation that there is nothing you can do in the world that doesn’t inherently come with moral ambiguity, because there is always uncertainty – both of the world and the morals you are applying. And wherever there is moral ambiguity, there is moral greyness (definition 1).

That being said, ‘everything is morally grey’ is not really a helpful statement. There are things that we (society today) generally agree on e.g. ‘killing someone for no reason is bad’ or ‘being nice to people is good’. So the argument I want to posit today is that WWX’s moral greyness goes beyond this in a substantial way.

The Uncertain Character of WWX

The Fundamental Principle of MXTX is that all narrators are unreliable. At the bloodbath of the Nightless City, did WWX kill 5000? 3000? Far fewer? Had WWX acted in a different way, could JYL’s death have been avoided? We’ll never know.

To add to this complexity is subtle shifts in canon depending on the adaptation. WWX tortures Wen Chao pretty brutally in the novel (and even if you hate him, it’s a bit ick). In cql, it ‘fades to black’. In the donghua it’s a nice quick stab. Then there’s all of the fiddling around they did with JGY depending on the adaptations, giving him more or less blame for the events. I’m not sure if ‘novel is the only canon’ is the correct way to go, mainly because adaptation!WWX is interesting to analyse in itself. I won’t explore this too deeply here, but something to keep in mind.

Anyway, I want to argue that WWX is morally grey, through commentary on a few elements of his character.

1. The Horrors of War

WWX does a lot of things that are somewhat eyebrow raising. You know, killing people and stuff. Now it has been pointed out plenty of times that his situation was unusual (it was war!). The moralities surrounding warfare are in itself complicated. A pacifist might argue that war is no excuse for violence, but even without going to such extremes, these days we appreciate that there are some actions that cannot be condoned, even during times of coflict – this is the notion of war crimes.

War crimes are a surprisingly modern thing (people started to care a lot after the atrocities of WWII). Medieval warfare was brutal. Anyway, these include things like ‘torture or inhuman treatment, including biological experiments’ and ‘wanton destruction of cities, towns or villages’. Note that while killing large numbers of enemy soldiers doesn’t fall under war crimes (although some methods of going about this do, like biological weapons), torture does, so that’s one strike against book!WWX. Now there is subtly in these things, because if you judged people by these standards for anything more than 200 years old, basically everyone is committing war crimes without thinking too hard about it. WWX did do a lot of arguably good things in the Sunshot Campaign (whatever good means in war) – he fought against the tyranny of the Wens and was one of the key things that shifted the tides towards victory. Without him, the world might have looked a lot darker. Whether these ‘goods’ weigh over the ‘bads’ is something to think about.

On a slightly softer note, weapons of mass destructions are another cause of serious discussion. Those involved in the Manhattan Project creating the first atomic bomb weren’t exactly all war criminals (moreover, many of them genuinely believed they were doing what was right and necessary) but the consequences of their actions are what they are. So while WWX made the Yin Tiger Talley as a method of deterrence and assurance, considering the consequences of its use and the potential for future misuse, here lies another moral ambiguity.

2. Intent vs Consequences

It’s fair to say that most of the time, WWX’s intentions were good. Whether it be to protect the weak, to stand up for justice, these are all things we can get behind. The consequences of his actions? Well, JYL is dead, as well as a bunch of other people, and most the Wens didn’t survive anyway. That’s a big oof.

Now most people don’t subscribe to the strongest version of consequentialism which judges whether something is right or wrong by its consequences only. As in, for one, it’s almost impossible to apply in practice because you can’t predict the consequences of your actions at the point at which you chose to do them. Case in point, most of the consequences of WWX’s actions weren’t wholly down to WWX and it’s difficult to say if there was anything at all that he could have done to lead to a better outcome. (Arguably, WWX should have tried harder to negotiate with the rest of the cultivation world instead of being a one-man army against them, but in that case, they might have just mowed down the Wens anyway.)

Then again, I think most people do subscribe to at least a weak form of consequentialism. No matter how good the intentions, no matter how righteous and commendable… if the outcome is bad, it’s hard to label those actions as ‘good’ (play pumps is an example if you want to look into how charities can do more harm than good).

I draw no conclusions here. It’s food for thought.

3. On Conflicting Values and Lose-Lose Scenarios

A lot of the above comes from applying modern ethics to a character in a world largely based on ‘Ancient China’ (the quotation marks from the fact Ancient China is several thousands years old and changes significantly over time). We do this all the time. Hell, people are still reimagining the Three Kingdoms and making commentary on the morality of Cao Cao (155-220). MDZS makes a lot of commentary on modern social issues (the ‘mob mentality’ of MDZS feels like Weibo/twitter lol), so viewing it through a modern lens makes sense.

But let’s put that aside for a second and return to my mum’s comment about WWX’s broken promise. By traditional values, family is important. In Confucianism, the Four Virtues are ‘loyalty’, ‘filial piety’, ‘continence’, and ‘righteousness’. To illustrate just how serious family was, in the conflict between Liu Bang and Xiang Yu, Xiang Yu at some point threatened to kill Liu Bang’s father. Then Liu Bang was like ‘we’re sworn brothers, so technically he’s your father too’, and Xiang Yu didn’t kill him, because it would be unfilial to do so. All this is to say, WWX turning his back on his sect and his family was a big deal. Equally, loyalty towards a superior was valued greatly, even towards eyebrow raising superiors.

But Confucianism also teaches the importance of things like ‘righteousness’ and ‘benevolence’. Throughout many dynasties, important people have cared a lot about the grievances of the masses. Bullying the weak and hoarding power unjustly is seen as one of the ultimate evils, a big reason for a leader to lose the Mandate of Heaven, thus becoming unfit to rule. Plenty of subordinates have stood up against the tyranny of their superiors. So WWX standing up to the evils of the Jin clan is highly commendable by these standards too.

Another thing is ‘paying back your benefactors’. In the west, although we do have concepts like ‘owing a life’, I don’t think it’s as strong??? This is also serious business. In the Three Kingdoms, Cao Cao spared his enemy general Guan Yu, and later Guan Yu briefly fought for Cao Cao even though he was an enemy, in order to repay this debt. Wen Ning and Wen Qing saved WWX’s life and helped him when he was in need – WWX has a moral obligation to help them in return.

Thus we see WWX between a rock and hard place. Turn away from the Jiangs and he turns away from his family, and from someone he promised his loyalty to. But turn a blind eye to the treatment of the Wens, and he is a not only allowing evil to go unchallenged, but also abandoning his benefactors. The game is rigged. There is no right move here. Morally ambiguity -> moral greyness.

(Note: A lot of the previous two points can also be viewed from a 'traditional' lens. Mohism has been arguing about pacifism and universal love since 400BC. Taoism has many things to say about intervening in world affairs. Life has always been complicated, and while our language/framework may shift, many of the underlying questions remain.)

(Second note: my knowledge of Chinese philosophy is all the stuff I learnt in Saturday school+a few books/youtube videos aka. not a lot. Please call me out if I'm sprouting nonsense.)

Let’s wrap up

Tl;dr WWX is a morally grey character.

And I haven’t even started on what went down at the Nightless City, or how interesting (read: morally sus) his methods of murder were, or his fantastic takes on risk assessment.

Maybe he’s good overall. Maybe he’s a hero. But heroes too can be morally grey. That’s just a part of life.

1. This is really hard to translate actually, and I think the way I’ve written it makes sense but comes across stronger than it was. More literally it was ‘can’t raise his head towards’. It was sort of explaining why JC was giving WWX a lot of shit later on and WWX wasn’t arguing back, more in a sympathetic way rather than a critical way.

As usual, thank you for reading! Comments and criticism appreciated, but I may be significantly slower getting back because my brain is in svsss mode rn :)

[llycaons]

surprise! I read volume 1 of svss

conclusion:

okay, on a serious note - I know, I know, but the curiosity was really getting to me, and I like to know what I'm dealing with when I criticize something (if you were following me when I decided to read the mdzs novel, you'll remember I did the same thing then). anon who asked me if I'd ever read it because they wanted to hear my thoughts and I said no - well, if you're still out there, you got your wish. but only volume one (1/4 of the full story). read on for my impression and review.

many thanks to jana @neixins for being my discord reading buddy for this project! her support, insights, and companionship made this far more entertaining than it would have otherwise been

fun fact before we start: I don't know why svss is exclusively referred to by its english acronym, but the acronym for its mandarin title would be RZFZX (full title Rén zhā fǎnpài zìjiù xìtǒng). I suppose svss (or SVS, or SV) is snappier

this is the official translation I'm reading, and the writing style is fine. definitely easier to parse than orv. and the art really is lovely

tw for discussion of grooming, abuse, and rape

brief overview of the plot: protag shen yuan, a modern-day young adult, is reading a long, terrible male power fantasy/stallion novel and complaining about how contrived and stupid it is. he dies at the moment he finishes reading and is transmigrated into the novel in the body of the infamously cruel and sadistic teacher of the protag, shen qingqiu. he knows that the young protagonist of the novel (luo binghe) will enact terrible revenge on the teacher when he grows up for all the abuse he suffered under sqq's hands, so he tries to make nice and get the lbh to like him

shen yuan (now sqq) has to navigate the rules of the system while trying to save his own skin, avoid acting ooc while trying to be nice to the mc, advance the plot, get 'badass points', and resolve the issues that led to the work being of such poor quality. his modern, internal monologue contrasts with his scholarly air in very funny ways, and his constant critiques of the writing are likewise fairly humorous commentaries on lazy and stereotypical writing

however, the parodies of contrived, cliched, and foolish writing tropes do not stop mxtx from writing these very same tropes into later works like mdzs or tgcf, nor does her pointing out those tropes automatically make her book good, so it's an incredibly exasperating experience. I thought she improved since writing mdzs, but it seems like she knows that what she's doing is cliched or pandering but she does it anyway. much like sy, we're exasperated because this could have been a really cool work and the execution is just not what it could have been

this book also has the dubious honor of being the only mxtx book to reference incest without condemning it or recognizing it's disgusting

I do think mxtx has a genuine talent for critiquing sexist and absurd romance tropes for straight couples, but she writes as if whatever gay people do to each other is fine. readers of tgcf and mdzs will know....in fact as much as I hate to say it, the moment in mdzs where wwx apologizes for assaulting lwj is one of the better ways she's handled these things. of course it's ruined later because lwj literally doesn't care he's been raped and they move past it immediately etc. but I would be shocked if the inappropriateness of the svss relationship is EVER addressed, so mdzs may actually be the one where it's handled slightly better. we know the age gap never comes up in tgcf, of course

anyway mxtx makes fun of the idea of a female love interest providing the mc with free therapy while she constructs a scenario in which sqq has to take on a love interest's role of support/inspiration

examples: this is a character that's presented as poorly-wriiten

this is LITERALLY how xuan ji tgcf was written except she hates pm instead of being obsessed with him like was in the past!! don't critique shitty writing for female characters if you refuse to do better!

the characters are not especially noteworthy, and unlike in tgcf or mdzs the mc has no real distinctive style, either visually or personality-wise. almost everyone was either very one-dimensional, unlikable, or just boring imo. I get that we're very early into the novel, but I don't really care about these characters at all. shame because it sounds like the side characters are really fun later on

the modern-day origins of sy make for some funny references - there are mentions of harry potter, and the book he gets isekaid into apparently has a ton of fanfiction

the horror is quite good - some of those monsters are freaky as hell. she always did have a knack for horror

much like mdzs has a ton of literary references, svss has a lot of references to modern films and tv shows, and to things like chinese ads or websites that a modern-day chinese reader would recognize, but that a translator would need to explain. it also does have some proverbs and wordplay as well

as for the elephant in the room: I consider the relationship in this novel to be grooming rather than csa/pedophilia. they may not get together until they're adults, but the mc is 14 years old when sy is isekaid in and there is absolutely already some kind of mutual something going on as early as chapter 1, despite sy criticizing other characters for being creepy with their students and referring to lbh as a child repeatedly. while sqq doesn't act on any of these feelings, it is impossible to ignore in their interactions and it did give me a helpless sense that I was in a horror movie

mxtx toes the line and tries to get away with as much as possible - adult/child relationships and grooming are a joke to her and her readers, something exciting, something fun, but like in tgcf, nothing actually happens

they would have had a much better relationship as simply master and student. or if the romance needed to be there, sy could have been isekaid into one of lbh's peers, as he had plenty of bullies his age - gay love changing the course of the narrative is a fun trope and if they'd been the same age, I genuinely would have enjoyed it. but lbh venerates and hero-worships his teacher, and this kind of power dynamic doesn't just cease to matter once he hits 18. he was an abused and vulnerable child offered kindness and support, and he latched onto and became obsessed with his teacher. getting a crush on a teacher is fine, but it shouldn't have turned into a romance. like tgcf, the issues with the main couple are foundational, but they could have been eliminated by the author just not being a fucking creep

also, sqq is vain and self-centered, and while he treats lbh kindly and praises him, he also treats him like a servant and shamelessly exploits his hero-worship to get good food and manual labor out of him. he's out for his survival so I understand him acting selfishly, but he internally talks down to all the characters he meets if he thinks they're poorly written, and it makes it a nightmare to be in his head for very long bc he's so mean. he is funny, but but he fucking sucks and I dislike him as a main character. compared to wwx and xl, he's the worst main character in terms of personality (even if he's much better than the original sqq)

for specific examples for the inappropriate writing of their relationship, all in this volume:

there are several vague descriptions of ~feelings~ on both sides when they see each other (lbh is 14)

at one point, sqq is poisoned in a way that he knows can only be cured by sex with lbh, and he thinks of it briefly before laughing it off like 'wow that would be CRAZY' as always mxtx, jokes are a great way to handle statutory rape. excerpt:

💀💀💀💀💀

lbh overhears that sqq praised him, and the character he overhears it from is described as a wingman (lnh is 15)

one of the disciples is angry that sqq suddenly favors lbh. excerpt:

after lbh 'dies' at age 17, sqq scolds himself, saying he's acting like a widow who's husband has died

so while nothing romantic or sexual happens this volume, the groundwork is there. see this screenshot from chapter 5 of the novel (originally chapter 30), at the very end of this volume:

if sqq had no attraction to his student, there would be no reason to be so panicked

it's like...nobody acts normally about this. lbh and sqq have the weirdest quasi-flirtatious conversations that skirt the edge of being explicitly romantic/sexual. I don't think it's an exaggeration to say that this was written to appeal to people who are into age gaps and grooming, if not outright csa. have some more excerpts

like...what IS THIS?

at the end of this volume, lbh is sent away for five years by sqq (he was forced to drop him into a demon abyss bc he needed to advance the plot) so when lbh returns he will be 22 and presumably VERY angry with sqq, and will probably use his newfound power to...torture him? or something? I don't know how their relationship will go from now on, but I have no interest in reading it when I know it's going to end with them as lovers. yeah, even if it does happen when they're both in their late 20s

otherwise, the first few chapters of the novel are extremely funny. it and has a lot of original ideas. but it's difficult to ignore such a premise, and I don't think it's worth it to grit your teeth through unless you have a particular interest in reading this book, to either critique it, enjoy the humor and creativity, or try to figure out why people are so hell-bent on defending it. and honestly by chapter 4 (around ch25 in the original novel), it's not even that funny anymore and the parody aspect has worn out since there's so little of substance to replace it. the og novel is mocked for being a cliched mess, but these are mxtx's actual characters now and she doesn't really seem to do much better with them

the age gap in tgcf is creepy too and I definitely don't like that hc became fixated on xl at a young age, impersonated a little kid, and then reverted back to a little-kid form, but xl not actually knowing him or forming a relationship with him back then is part of why I'm less grossed out about it than I otherwise would be. xl didn't know who hc was when they met and they had barely any relationship when hc was a little kid. he was just a fun guy and they started hanging out together. hc wasn't a young boy placed under his care who he started developing feelings for oh my god I hate sqq so much

there was a side character that sqq describes as 'beautiful' who he had a somewhat antagonistic relationship with who would have been a PERFECT love interest for sqq if he wasn't a fucking creep and im so mad that they didn't become lbh's gay dads instead of whatever the fuck went on

tl; dr: an engaging and original premise with a lot of humor. clever and insightful in many ways, with some great horror scenes, but as in other novels, unable to be normal about gay people and inescapably, unnecessarily ruined by the grooming between the main character and his love interest and the abuse that apparently comes afterwards. also ignorant to its own faults, sexism, and illogical stances even as it parodies others

spoilers for the rest of the book

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according to a beloved mewtual who has provided me summary for the rest (thank you for the info!), the relationship is fucked up for the remainder of the book for completely different reasons

ready? after lbh comes back, sqq is freaked out and doesn't want anything to do with him because he thinks lbh is going to kill him. lbh in fact doesn't want to kill him, but has apparently undergone a complete personality change and is now just a bitter and VERY yandere asshole and proceeds to torment, stalk, harass, torture, and sexually assault sqq until sqq agrees to be in a relationship with him. this abuse and shifting of power dynamics could have been handled in an interesting way, but it isn't, and who's surprised

later in the story lbh is risking qi deviation, so sqq reluctantly (and painfully?) dual-cultivates with him. I heard years ago about some kind of rape torture porn scene and I assume this is what it was referring to

I cannot imagine the appeal this romance holds for fans because this sounds completely fucking miserable and victim-blamy as hell, but uhhh they get married in one of the extras

as for the side characters, a lot of them are kind of doing their own thing? they sound like a ton of fun compared to the main guys. there's a demon snake guy, they're a cool demon lady who's kind of in lesbians with another disciple, there's another gay couple who are like insane and assholes but seem perfect for each other so 👍

anyway bingqiu is abusive but surprisingly not because of sqq, though I haven't forgotten him being creepy about his student this volume either. I can't believe svss was just proto-killing stalking this entire time. aside from glorifying abuse and victim-blaming, that's just so fucking boring. what a disappointment. for all their faults, mdzs and tgcf had legitimately magnificent scenes, complex relationships, interesting plots, heartfelt emotional moments, and compelling characters. no wonder this is the unfavorite of the batch - it's absolutely the worst in every way and it sounds like it doesn't get much better

if you're going to send me anon hate about this like 'your interest is problematic too' or 'let people enjoy things' just save yourself the time and block me first. I absolutely do not care about your opinion and I'll just delete it unless you're explaining something I've misunderstood in good faith. and even then I think so lowly of the fans of this novel I might just delete it anyway, after screenshotting it and sharing it with my mutuals to laugh at. get some fucking taste. that's all

[righteousinadversity]

Let's talk about how hubris is not Wei Wuxian's fatal flaw.

I am very, very tired of this take.

Hubris is the fatal flaw of many a hero throughout history. The hero thinks of himself better than everyone, has a high self-confidence bordering on arrogance, and finally, it leads to his downfall.

Those stories are indeed an amazing exploration of human arrogance. But MDZS is not such a story. WWX is not such a hero.

Perhaps people are misled because WWX is not a character afflicted with self-esteem issues (whatever CQL may choose to portray or popular fanon may claim). He is completely confident in his actions, assured in his competence, secure in his endurance. He does not doubt his morals, he is righteous and brilliant and competent.

This is confused with arrogance, especially because much like Gui Dao, his so-called 'arrogance' is often called the reason for his downfall. And until the very moment of revelation, MXTX gives us scenes that are out of context to give us the impression that WWX's downfall was his own fault.

I have said this before, I will say it again, I will say it a thousand times. WWX's demise was the punishment the society forced upon him for having the audacity to stand up against cruelty. For having the audacity to do the right thing when the world was drunk on power and hatred and vengeance and passivity.

Now then. About Hubris.

“Not everything was because of his cultivation path. Wei WuXian’s personality is quite immoral. One’s deeds will be paid, one way or another; what goes around always comes around.”

We have this in the prologue, which, as we all know, are rumours surrounding WWX that are systematically decried throughout the book.

A moment that WWX's apparent arrogance is shown to us is during the empathy with NMJ. His perceived arrogance is clearly shown as a mask when WWX himself says that he was joking with JC as he walks away. However, after this, he has a fight with JZX, a fight that at that particular time, seems uncalled for. JZX inquires about JYL, and WWX does not care for it. Out of context, this seems like WWX is making trouble for no reason.

But later, during Phoenix Mt. Hunt, we find out that JZX's last interaction with JYL ended with her sobbing until she almost couldn't breathe. That JYL was content to stay far, far away from him after the soup incident. WWX's anger makes far more sense, especially because JYL is described as someone who very rarely cries.

Fanon about WWX's 'hubris' is almost inseparable from his use of Gui Dao, or perhaps, more specifically, his control over it.

From the moment he comes back from the Burial Mounds, commanding resentment, LWJ confronts him about his control over it.

Lan WangJi, “Some things you cannot be able to control at all.”

Displeasure flashed across Wei WuXian’s face, “Of course, I can control it."

An important thing to realise about this moment I feel, is that when LWJ says this, WWX is just a few days out of the Burial Mounds. WWX knows he can control Gui Dao - it's not arrogance, its confidence built on the fact that had he not been able to do so, he would not have survived the Burial Mounds. LWJ is questioning his control, and WWX's anger, aside from distrust from the man he held in high regard and was so fond of, is very likely to have stemmed from his time in the Burial Mounds being very, very fresh in his mind.

Later, at two more instances, the two being Yunmeng meet and Yiling meet, LWJ expresses similar concerns, and WWX again affirms that he knows his own powers and can control it.

Now the Hubris caused WWX's downfall fanon obviously holds up two specific moments as the moments where his Hubris comes into play. JZX death and JYL being injured.

But when we think about the two instances, in fact, they are two moments that show us that WWX in fact does know his cultivation best.

First and foremost, the two instances are most notably, moments when WWX is in mortal danger, surrounded by people who want him dead, being attacked by them, and under enormous stress. In QQP, there are 300 archers. In Nightless city, 3000 cultivators wish to kill him and then slaughter the innocents he protected. Both are moments where he is vulnerable and very, very alone.

Don't for a moment forget that WWX fought in a war. Instincts like that do not disappear. Similarly, and more importantly, WWX was in a place akin to hell for 3 months, surrounded, helpless, in mortal danger.

In QQP, WWX tells JZX to stay back. I can't understand how people read that and not understand that WWX is well aware of his own control. He tells JZX to stay away. JZX, the Enormous Idiot that he is, doesn't. What he does do, is lunge at WWX. When WWX is being attacked from all sides, when he is focused on protecting himself and has already told him to stay away.

In a similar vein, WWX absolutely has no intention to hold back at Nightless City. He has been confronted with the stark reality that the Righteous Cultivation Sects would stop at nothing to kill the Wens, to see him dead. He is shot, and he himself is filled with anger and rage. However, the moment JYL appears on the battlefield, he leaves the roof, fearing for her safety. He knows that his cultivation is volatile at the time, surrounded by danger as he is.

It is enormous control he shows to calm down in those situations and calm the corpses, all at JYL's request. It is undoubtedly stemming from his concern for her, his want for her to be safe, but it shows that WWX, can, in fact, control his cultivation because he is shown doing it in a circumstance of immense pressure.

It is interesting to note that post 13 years, WWX still uses Gui Dao, and LWJ, with 13 years to grow and having understood better, never questions him on his control over it. But this is very easily forgotten about - and I absolutely blame CQL for demonizing resentful energy and actually making WWX's confidence in his cultivation seem like arrogance and pride.

Making WWX and his Hubris the scapegoat is a very easy excuse to make for the Cultivation World. But it is a severe injustice to the very strenuous circumstances he is under, as well as the trauma he has gone through.

Can WWX bear the weight of the responsibilities he takes on because of how morally upright he is? Yes. But even he buckles under the pressure when the world turns against him. This is why things are so different post his resurrection because he is not alone anymore. He has someone who stands by his side, no matter what the crowd says. He has Lan Wangji, who supports him, who stands by him, and Wei Wuxian knows Lan Wangji is there. He has a guardian, a protection he has never, ever had before.

WWX's fatal flaw is not Hubris. His demise is not the making of his Arrogance. His death was a tragedy precisely because he was punished for doing the right thing.

[admirableadmiranda]

Something that annoys me about this “if you say this character is evil, you’re reading MDZS wrong” is that MXTX didn’t actually mean to write this “oh we’re all grey” story. She openly dislikes JGY, and she thought of JC as WWX’s crazy ex shidi with deep problems. Like, they aren’t there for you to justify their actions (god knows they did it a lot of times already) or to try to make them look good by putting them in the same bag as the protagonists just because “they’re all well fleshed and complex characters that are morally grey and flawed”.

What a way to miss MDZS’s actual message. It saddens me because WWX’s hero journey is as tragic as it is beautiful. I wish I was as brave as him, to oppose injustice even if I am alone against the world.

Yeah I totally get you anon! I’m not sure why it’s so hard for people especially in MDZS to figure out (though I have seen it for her other two works too, but not to the same extent), but she’s actually pretty clear in her work on who’s admirable and who’s not. Even when she’s deliberately using framing to get you to question what you’re hearing versus what you’re seeing, it’s pretty clear who you’re supposed to doubt the narrative about and who you’re not. Jin Guangyao is revealed as the main villain less than halfway through the book, after all!

There are works where that would be an appropriate reaction. Sometimes the heroes can too, be deeply flawed, negative people. But that’s not where MXTX is writing from and from what danmei/xianxia I’ve consumed so far, she has some of the least morally gray characters scattered through her works. She’s clearly very big on the idea that people can and will choose to do good if they want, and also that while it certainly doesn’t exempt them from flaws, that also flaws do not have to be hero killers.

Wei Wuxian is killed not because he is occasionally a little tactless and also keeps people at a distance because it is a very slow journey to trust them enough, but because his morals and willingness to stand up for them are inconvenient to the people in power. He is a flawed, well rounded character, but that’s not why he was hated or why he died. Similarly Jiang Cheng having sympathetic backstory and losses does not exempt him from being a shitty person because as we see in the novel, he’s not the only person who loses everything in his life, but he’s the one who decided to stew in it.

MXTX is so big on your choices define who you are, not your position or history. What matters most is what you do in the shadows and the light. That’s why Wei Wuxian is so heroic, he is always willing to stand by his morals even to the bitter end. It is tragic, but also it’s so full of hope, even! Look at what he has in the end of the story, it is so solidified that his choices and sacrifices did make a difference! Lan Sizhui is alive, well raised and cared for, because Wei Wuxian made that sacrifice for him. Mianmian is out living her best life with Mr. Mianmian and Mini Mianmian because she chose to follow Wei Wuxian’s bravery and has never regretted it. Jin Ling is blossoming under his patient guidance into a wonderful young man who can hold his head high with pride. It may be tragic, but so much good came from it too even if in the immediate moment it was hard to see.

And you know what, anon? We can be that too. Maybe not as far as he goes, but we can still shine bright and make the choices that have positive impacts down the road. We can be Mianmian, inspired by him to do the same that he did on the scales that we can.

The world may be a big thing to save, but we can always save little pieces of it here and there and the more of us that there are, the more powerful it becomes.

[khattikeri]

A lot of them do enforce patriarchy in my opinion! Even if it isn't directly as chauvinistic tyrants, like the obvious examples of Wen Chao and Jin Guangshan. More well-liked characters by the fandom like Jin Guangyao and Jiang Cheng also have a tendency of treating women based on how convenient it is for them, and are rooted in the patriarchy and misogyny of their own societies.

Jin Guangyao had a loving wife in Qin Su, but he was content to keep her in the dark and murder their son for his own gains. He burned down a brothel with nearly everyone inside. He believes that he deserves more power and acts accordingly to get it. The idea that women are lesser to him is implied based on how he treats both lower-class women like the prostitutes and upper-class women like his wife.

Jiang Cheng is a bit more of a discourse trigger, but the way he treats Jiang Yanli in life and after her death can arguably show that while he did love her, it wasn’t to a point of selflessness or truly listening to her desires. Putting aside the matter of Wei Wuxian and Jin Ling and the way the Jiang siblings treat them... even during points where Jiang Yanli wanted to avoid Jin Zixuan after he'd publicly humiliated her, Jiang Cheng prioritizes the politics of a relationship with the Jin clan over his sister's happiness, safety, and comfort, which does uphold the patriarchy even if he doesn't outright say things like 'women should be obedient'.

The patriarchy is most obviously visible in MDZS but even the universes of SVSSS and TGCF aren't exempt-- Su Xiyan and Ling Wen are also treated poorly in-universe (one dies because her obsessed groomer/father figure got angry she became pregnant by a heavenly demon; she's criticized posthumously by strangers of many sects for not aborting the baby. The other is consistently harassed and has others' work forced upon her).

This response got long LMAO but my main point is I guess... even with all this in-universe misogyny, many of MXTX's male characters have traits or demonstrate tropes that are more often applied to women, and it isn't done to mock them whatsoever. Which I find fascinating! maybe I'll end up writing the essay regardless lol

i need someone to write an essay on how mxtx makes almost every single male character she has feel feminine without specifically feminizing them for the sake of humiliation, reader titillation, or adhering to yaoi submissive tropes

[hamliet]

So, this person mentioning your 2ha metas made me get curious about it so I wanted to look for them but then the first thing I found was this: "I think 2ha had the potential to be as rich in complexity as MXTX's works, but instead settled for a more traditional black/white version of the morality" and now I'm actually more curious about this line 🤣

You see... I've alway failed to get the whole hype regarding mdzs and its morally gray this, morally gray that. And it doesn't help that the Chinese fans I know also complain about it, they're like "wwx is the hero, why western fans are so obsessed to change this? Why they don't do the same with their heroes?"... And they also comment on how mxtx is pretty clear about the morals of their characters and I feel like I get both sides but again, not really the obsession with the matter. Because then there's the fact that, while I agree with meatbun not treating SQT well, I don't feel like MXTX did it better when it was only literally wwx the one having his happy ending... Everyone else is dead or condemned to be forever alone for some reason... and even someone as jc is someone who, imo is pretty clear, MXTX thinks doesn't deserve anything but loneliness (the fact there's no woman who wants him according to her, he has no friends, he has no real bond anymore with anyone...). So, honestly, I don't feel like if MXTX wasn't clear about who are the morally correct and the morally wrong in her stories just as I don't feel she was any more fair with her secondary characters for the sake of wangxian happy ending. The same goes with her other works where all the characters that are antagonists in different levels, just like in mdzs, get what "they deserve" 🤔

Ahhh okay, I've seen this argument floated a lot, and it's become a bit of a pet peeve for me, so I'm going to take a bit of time to respond to this... There is a lot here to respond to.

For starters, I would caution you about categorizing of "Chinese fans" as if they are one monolith; they are not. They are also not different than western fans in terms of being human; they are closer to the cultural context of the story, but that doesn't inherently mean every interpretation is correct or textually supported. For example, I haven't seen at all your claims about WWX being the hero (I saw it from a western person, and if the Tweet is what you're referring to, they took the quotes shockingly and almost laughably out of context): while I'm sure Chinese fans do say this... so do western fans. A lot. In fact, Jiang Cheng is very not popular among Chinese fans in polls, while Jin Guangyao is. The point is, you can't say Chinese fans vs Other fans in a simplistic way to make any claim of substance.

As for MXTX's statements, I literally do not take authorial interviews into account in analyzing stories, nor do I really understand why people do. I'll quote Dostoyevsky here: “Don’t let us forget that the causes of human actions are usually immeasurably more complex and varied than our subsequent explanations of them.” Authors explain things in overly simplified ways, and explaining a novel that runs on complexity simplistically is never going to be satisfying. You also have to look at the full picture: she's said pretty cold things about Xue Yang (much worse than about JC), but has also defended him from antis, calling him "my son" and saying that she loves him more than any readers because she created him. I don't doubt this is the same for Jiang Cheng.

"jc is someone who, imo is pretty clear, MXTX thinks doesn't deserve anything but loneliness" I do not think this is true. The notes about Jiang Cheng's dating life are humor. You may not find them funny, but they're clearly intended to be humor. Framing matters (I'll discuss framing in a bit.) It is also factually incorrect to say he has no real bonds. He clearly does. Jin Ling is a bond.

Everyone else is dead or condemned to be forever alone for some reason... I also don't see what you mean by looking at the story, or whom you might be referring to. Song Lan went to restore Xiao Xingchen's soul, to heal it. The juniors went from being antagonistic to being friends with each other. Wen Ning helps Sizhui with his heritage. Lan Qiren accepts Wei Wuxian as Lan Wangji's husband.

The ones where I can kiiiinda see people assuming this are with Jiang Cheng and Lan Xichen, but I also don't think the framing is taken into account. Jiang Cheng has Jin Ling, and much like with Lan Xichen, I think people expect spoonfeeding where nuance works better. The trajectory of the novel--towards healing, towards the younger generations doing better than the older ones--indicates that there will be healing that continues beyond the main story. Not everything needs to be spelled out. I doubt Lan Xichen will be in seclusion forever like his father; his father had Lan Qiren (a flawed if well-intentioned man), but Lan Xichen has Lan Wangji, and I highly doubt Wei Wuxian is going to leave brother-in-law miserable. I do think Jiang Cheng and Wei Wuxian will form a new bond, because they are both clearly involved in Jin Ling's life. Neither of them are really good at cutting off bonds (like even after WWX's death, Jiang Cheng was looking for him). I wrote more on this here.

What is missing from most of these discussions is framing. framing, framing, framing. It tells you what to think about a story's events. Yes, Jin Guangyao and Xue Yang die, but how is that framed as "what they deserve?" Xue Yang dies with a candy in his hand, which if you want to rely on MXTX’s statements, she literally said she did that to show that he was not a heartless monster. Which is indeed what the text implies. For JGY, you have Jin Ling bawling and realizing his uncle was good to him too, Lan Xichen tricked into killing him when he wasn't doing anything, Wei Wuxian realizing how wrong it was and that they are the same. That's tragic framing, not "haha got what he deserved." The literal point of tragedy is that it shouldn't end this way. Tragedy is not "justice." Tragedy has injustice as its main point. You are supposed to be sad.

I've talked about tragedy in media before, and will quote Arthur Miller's "Tragedy and the Common Man" here:

The possibility of victory must be there in tragedy. Where pathos rules, where pathos is finally derived, a character has fought a battle he could not possibly have won. The pathetic is achieved when the protagonist is, by virtue of his witlessness, his insensitivity, or the very air he gives off, incapable of grappling with a much superior force.

Pathos truly is the mode for the pessimist. But tragedy requires a nicer balance between what is possible and what is impossible. And it is curious, although edifying, that the plays we revere, century after century, are the tragedies. In them, and in them alone, lies the belief-optimistic, if you will, in the perfectibility of man.

What is the "much superior force" in MDZS? It's society. And yet, because things are gray, society is not fully evil. Like with Dostoyevsky's novels, people need each other. They need each other to heal and to fully live; seclusion is not a Good Thing. But also, playing the political game kills, so society also corrupts. See here.

What is society if not a reflection of the human being? Born with tendencies towards good and towards evil. Someone who can corrupt, and hurt, and also heal others. Someone who can comfort an orphan with a dog and also torment his father to death. Someone who can kill thousands of people and also risk his life to save others. People who are complex.

By saying "gray morality," I'm not saying that there is no good or evil, but instead that context determines much of this; empathy matters as well, and so what is evil to one person may save another person. That said, there is an overall moral implication that people living is good, and empathy is good. Gray morality has never ever meant moral nihilism. It just means that instead of thinking "there is no right choice sucks to suck"; it should be "there are no choices that will heal without hurting; hence, let's empathize with those who make those choices instead of condemning them." Black/white morality is exemplified with Nie Mingjue's character, who ends up stuck in a coffin for 100 years after being used like a puppet to kill innocents. I think black/white morality is pretty clearly condemned.

Imo, claims that only Wangxian got a happy ending and everyone else was sacrificed for this are based off of personal projections and impressions, not off careful analysis of the text that takes culture, literary allusions, tone, framing, and the like into account.

Wangxian are a gay couple, aka already challenging societal understandings on love. They leave society to heal and then return to help others, which is as far from a "f*ck you got mine" attitude as you can get. It's an old trope used as far back as the Bible: after some time away, you return to go into the world and save. The salvation isn't religious here but it's empathetic. They want to be a part of their loved ones lives.

Wei Wuxian never thinks that he didn't deserve death for what he did, even if the context leading up to it might well justify him feeling that way. He does not think Jin Guangyao deserved what happened to him, at the same time. He does not think everyone else's sacrifices were justified. If WWX is supposed to embody morality, as black/white people claim, then why do they disregard chapter 113?

It's fine for people to prefer things to be more spelled out (they are in TGCF, for example!) but I think MDZS is a novel that is heavily based in nuance (like, that's a central theme), and so when people approach it with an attitude of expecting spoonfeeding, they end up confused.

[dangermousie]

Mousie’s absolutely subjective, very biased Top 10 web novels list

Please note that this is hardly aiming to be objective, if one can even be properly objective about a work of fiction. It is 110% based on my preferences, which means this list is heavy on the angst and has nothing set in the modern day. It is also heavily danmei-centric, even though I read way more het romance than danmei, because for whatever reason, most of the danmei I’ve read has been insanely good.

10. Return of the Swallow - one of the two non-danmeis on this list. Smart and nuanced and with a large cast of characters. Our heroine is a long-lost daughter of the family that is brought back in and has to cope with familial struggles, crazy royals, court intrigue, invasion et al. It’s SO GOOD! There is romance with the sexy smart enemy general but honestly, it’s the heroine that is the main selling point for me.

9. Transmigrator Meets Reincarnator - the only other non-danmei novel on this list, this was my very first web novel and what drew me into this insanity. This is just a ton of fun, probably the lightest novel on this list, not an ounce of angst to be found. But it’s hilarious and features competent heroine and tsundere hero and I will always love it for opening a new world to me. Anyway, our heroine transmigrates into the novel as the female lead. Unlike the original lead though she doesn’t want to seek adventures and angst - she just wants to comfortably live with the wealthy, nice husband heroine has. Alas, said husband is no longer nice since he has previously lived this story where he was betrayed by FL and then transmigrated/reincarnated into the past. Oh well, the heroine opens up businesses and makes friends. And eventually, her husband realizes his wife is way different this time around. This actually doesn’t have much romance, not until close to the end, but this is so fun I don’t care.

8. Lord Seventh - I am only partway through this so far, but it’s already on the list because it’s smart and somehow intense AND laid-back (not sure how this works, but it does) and is honestly just a really really solid and smart period novel, with the OTP a cherry on top of a narrative sundae. Plus, I love the concept of MC deciding he is not going for his supposedly fated love - he’s tried for six lifetimes, always with disaster, and he’s just plain done and tired. When he opens his life in his seventh reincarnation and sees the person he would have given up the world for, he genuinely feels nothing at all. (Spoiler - his OTP is actually a barbarian shaman this time around, thank you Lord!)

7. Grandmaster of Demonic Cultivation (MDZS) - oh come on, how are you even on this tumblr if you don’t know MDZS/The Untamed? This was my very first danmei and it’s so much fun! I love everything about it - the unreliable narrator, the looping structure, the main OTP, Wei Wuxian’s laidback, traumatized insouciance, everything. Anyway, the plot in the event you somehow transported here from 2005 is that the Grandmaster of Demonic Cultivation, Wei Wuxian, was defeated by the righteous sects over a decade ago and fell of a cliff to his death. Only now that same Wei Wuxian opens his eyes in another body and everything that was supposed to stay in the past starts again.

6. Heaven Official’s Blessing (TGCF) - people either love its meandering narrative, picaresque structure and cast of thousands, or find it a detriment compared to much more compact MDZS. I love it even more than MDZS for those very qualities. It does have a rock-solid, darling OTP, but what really elevates it to me are the MXTX trademark combo of snarky/light tone hiding a ton of trauma underneath, the insanely intricate world-building, and what it has to say about the nature of grace and goodness. Xie Lian is one of my top 5 web novel characters and probably in top 10 from anywhere. Oh, and while MXTX’s stuff is not as angsty for me as Meatbun’s or even Priest’s, there are always exceptions, and there is one chapter in this novel that pretty much broke me and sometimes I still flashback to it and feel unwell.

Anyway, what is it about? There is a commotion in the heavenly realm - Xie Lian, the Crown Prince of a long-destroyed kingdom, has ascended to Godhood. That in itself is not so exciting. However for Xie Lian this is the third time (!!!!) as he’s ascended and lost his godhood twice prior. And now, the biggest joke of the divine realm is back, throwing the heavenly realm into chaos. And elsewhere, Hua Cheng, one of the four most powerful demons of that Universe, sits up and takes notice.

5. Golden Stage - my perfect comfort novel. Probably the least angsty of any danmei novel on this list (which still means plenty angsty :P) It also has a dedicated, smart OTP that is an OTP for the bulk of the book - I think you will notice that in most of the novels in this list, I go for “OTP against the world” trope - I can’t stand love triangles and the same. Anyway, Fu Shen, is a famous general whose fame is making the emperor antsy. When he gets injured and can’t walk any more, the emperor gladly recalls him and marries him off to his most faithful court lackey, the head of sort of secret police, Yan Xiaohan. The emperor intends it both as a check on the general and a general spite move since the two men always clash in court whenever they meet. But not all is at is seems. They used to be friends a long time ago, had a falling out, and one of the loveliest parts of the novel is them finding their way to each other, but there is also finding the middle path between their two very different philosophies and ways of being, not to mention solving a conspiracy or dozen, and putting a new dynasty on the throne, among other things. It always makes me think, a little, of “if Mei Changsu x Jingyan were canon.”

4. Sha Po Lang - if you like a lot of fantasy politics and world-building and steampunk with your novels, this one is for you. This one is VERY plot-heavy with smart, dedicated characters and a deconstruction of many traditional virtues - our protagonist Chang Geng, a long-lost son of the Emperor, is someone who wants to modernize the country but also take down the current emperor his brother for progress’ sake and the person he’s in love with is the general who saved him when he was a kid who is nominally his foster father. Anyway, the romance is mainly a garnish in this one, not even a big side dish, but the relationship between two smart, dedicated, deadly individuals with very different concepts of duty is fascinating long before it turns romantic. And if you like angst, while overall it’s not as angsty as e.g., Meatbun stuff, Chang Geng’s childhood is the stuff of nightmares and probably freaks me out more than anything else in any novel on this list, 2ha included.

3. To Rule In a Turbulent World (LSWW) - gay Minglan. No seriously. This is how I think of it. it’s a slice of life period novel with fascinating characters and setting that happens to have a gay OTP, not a romance in a period setting per se and I always prefer stories where the romance is not the only thing that is going on. It’s meticulously written and smart and deals with character development and somehow makes daily minutia fascinating. Our protagonist, You Miao, is the son of a fabulously wealthy merchant, sent to the capital to make connections and study. As the story starts, he sees his friend’s servants beating someone to death, feels bad, and buys him because, as we discover gradually and organically, You Miao may be wealthy and occasionally immature but he is a genuinely good person. The person he buys is a barbarian from beyond the wall, named Li Zhifeng. It’s touch and go if the man will survive but eventually he does and You Miao, who by then has to return home, gives him his papers and lets him go. However, LZF decides to stick with You Miao instead, both out of sense of debt for YM saving his life and because he genuinely likes him (and yet, there is no instalove on either of their parts, their bodies have fun a lot quicker than their souls.) Anyway, the two take up farming, get involved in the imperial exams and it’s the life of prosperity and peace, until an invasion happens and things go rapidly to hell. This is so nuanced, so smart (smart people in this actually ARE!) and has secondary characters who are just as complex as the mains (for example, I ended up adoring YM’s friend, the one who starts the plot by almost beating LZF to death for no reason) because the novel never forgets that few people are all villain. There is a lovely character arc or two - watching YM grow up and LZF thaw - there is the fact that You Miao is a unicorn in web novels being laid back and calm. This whole thing is a masterpiece.

2. Stains of Filth (Yuwu) - want the emotional hit of 2ha but want to read something half its length? Well, the author of 2ha is here to eviscerate you in a shorter amount of time. This has the beautiful world-building, plot twists that all make sense and, at the center of it all, an intense and all-consuming and gloriously painful relationship between two generals - one aristocratic loner Mo Xi, and the other gregarious former slave general Gu Mang. Once they were best friends and lovers, but when the novel starts, Gu Mang has long turned traitor and went to serve the enemy kingdom and has now been returned and Mo Xi, who now commands the remnants of his slave army, has to cope with the fact that he has never been able to get over the man who stabbed him through the heart. Literally. This novel has a gorgeously looping structure, with flashbacks interwoven into present storyline. There is so much love and longing and sacrifice in this that I am tearing up a bit just thinking of it. If you don’t love Mo Xi and Gu Mang, separately and together, by the end of it, you have no soul.

1. The Dumb Husky and His White Cat Shizun (2ha/erha) - if you’ve been following my tumblr for more than a hot second, you know my obsession with this novel. Honestly, even if I were to make a list of my top 10 novels of any kind, not just webnovels, this would be on the list. It has everything I want - a complicated, intricate plot with an insane amount of plot twists, all of which are both unexpected and make total sense, a rich and large cast of characters, a truly epic OTP that makes me bawl, emotional intensity that sometimes maxes even me out and so much character nuance and growth. Also, Moran is my favorite web novel character ever, hands down.

Anyway, the plot (or at least the way it first appears) is that the evil emperor of the cultivation world, Taxian Jun, kills himself at 32 and wakes up in the body of his 16 year old self, birth name Moran. Excited to get a redo, Moran wants to save his supposed true love Shimei, whose death the last go-around pushed him towards evil. He also wants to avoid entanglement with Chu Wanning, his shizun and sworn enemy in past life. And that’s all you are best off knowing, trust me. The only hint I am going to give is oooh boy the mother of all unreliable narrators has arrived!

The novel starts light and funny on boil the frog principle - if someone told me I would be full bawling multiple times with this novel, I’d have thought they were insane, but i swear my eyes hurt by the end of it. I started out being amused and/or disliking the mains and by the end I would die for either of them.

[cqlfeels]

I'm losing my mind over Wei Wuxian's death in the novel. I mean his death in the drama is very clear, no question, but in the novel it's quite ambiguous, isn't it?

It is assumed that Wei Wuxian died by his ghost army turning against him after he destroyed the Stygian Amulet. But it's just a brief mentioning of how happend, and not from wei wuxian himself, and I think that was the assumption of the people, and we all know we can't trust of rumor in that world.

Then Lan Wangji in the donghua confirmed that he knew Wei Wuxian did not die from his ghost army. And Wei Wuxian avoids the question, like he doesn't want to tell him how he died, maybe because it's too sad.

I mean, yes, the destruction of the amulet was the cause of his death, I understand this, but it was a conscious choice or an accident? Wei Wuxian should know that if the amulet is gone, he would no longer be in control over the angry ghosts and they would rebel against him. So it was a deliberate death? The price to pay? He didn't want that dangerous amulet ended up in other hands.

I'm saying this because in the novel he also mentioned that they tried to summon his soul, but he did not respond. So he didn't want to return to the living. And after he was forcibly summoned, he also made a sarcastic comment that the living refused to let him “rest in peace”.

This makes me believe that he wanted to die and to stay dead even in the novel. But I'm open to other interpretations, since the description of his death is so short and assumed by other people.

Thank you to read my endless doubts!

Oh no anon I'm so sorry for having taken an embarrassing amount of time to get to this ask! But it was such a good ask that I wanted to give it some attention!

Okay so WWX's death in the novel fascinates me. "Wei Wuxian is dead" is both one of the first things we read and the incident without which the novel can't happen. It's at the core of everything, but we just... Don't know much about it. Which plays into the themes of the novel!! What can we know, anyway? WWX is an extremely unreliable narrator, so even if he did outright say in the narration "This is how I died" we wouldn't know for sure that's something we can trust. Would he be telling all the facts, or just those relevant to the scene at hand? Even if he was telling all the facts, how would his emotions about it impact the way he told us this, and how can we take that into account?

In reading MDZS I'm reminded often of Murder on the Orient Express by Agatha Christie? Basically, that book has a structure where each chapter features a different character being interrogated about the murder of the title. It's up to the reader to discern, among things the characters know and don't know, are trying to hide or to highlight, feel strongly or don't care about, what the true version of the events is. This being a mystery novel, of course by the end of the book we're handed on a silver platter the full explanation of the hows and the whys that is The Official Author Explanation™️ that is inherently trustworthy as per genre conventions.

The difference is that MDZS robs us of that. There are mysteries within mysteries in the novel, but MXTX deliberately withholds any sort of inherently trustworthy narrative, while repeatedly cautioning us to not say "I understand" or "I know" unless we're sure we have all the facts - and even then, that's a risky thing to do.

I suspect MXTX does have an idea of how most mysteries of her novel are solved (maybe even all), but tbh what I love is that she doesn't give us the satisfaction of knowing these answers. MDZS lacks many resolutions. They're not plot-holes, it's not that it's impossible to come up with theories explaining her whole plot - it's the opposite. It's so easy to come up with opposing theories, but it's pretty damn near impossible to categorically find a theory that you can prove beyond reasonable doubt.

So this - gathering what WWX says about his own death, what other people say about it, what is said about other deaths, what is not said at all - is just so much fun for me. There are a thousand puzzles small and big that you could play with in this story. I mean, suppose you get WWX's death right. You immediately run into the MXY problem: we have a main character who kickstarts the entire plot, but what do we know of him except for rumors? WWX bases his understanding of him on his journal, but do we know for sure MXY wasn't writing the journal for WWX? You'll end up walking in circles because good luck finding passages where you can assert "This is MXY" without fear of getting caught in the trap all characters do in this novel: to equal your own beliefs and suppositions to an objective truth.

All of this is to say that this ask makes me super happy! But I can't for my life tell you "Oh this is what is going on, this is what you've missed, this is the key to the central mystery" because the novel tries so very hard to make sure I don't do that, that I feel it's a waste of fun to get too attached to any one theory. I'm with you that I think WWX did want to die and did want to stay dead (though I'm not entirely sure on the exact mechanics - was it active or passive suicide, if it was a suicide indeed?), but like. I'm basing this on my understanding of WWX, and uh.... Ask LXC what a rock-solid foundation "I'm pretty sure I know this person" is for a theory! So yeah. I'll take my cue from NHS instead and just repeat I don't know I don't know I don't know.

[dvasva]

I have a lot of complicated emotions about jgy that i wont get into now but i will say. Really i think peoples dislike of him comes down to who he ends up benefitting and why he hurts other people. because while wwx hurts a lot of people, we tend to view this in a more forgiving light because of something I like to call The MXTX Cycle Of Self Sacrifice And Tragedy in which an mxtx character does a big self sacrifice thing for the benefit of another character but it ultimately leads to a worse tragedy. Examples include: WQ and WN giving themselves up to jgs, only for wwx and the wens to still die, jiang yanli dying to protect wwx only for wwx to go crazy cause of her death, wwx giving jc his core only to be forced to use demonic cultivation, jc running out to save wwx fro. wens only for his core to be destroyed etc etc (there are examples in svsss and tgcf too but this is an mdzs post so i will refrain).

Some characters, imo, are kind of excluded from this cycle of Tragedy and self sacrifice, and they usually tend to be either the characters that are meant to escape this cycle of tragedy, like the juniors, OR characters who make decisions that are only meant to benefit themselves. They may make sacrifices but the sacrifices at the end of the day aren't for the benefit of other people. Theyre caught in another cycle, a foil to my MXTX Cycle of Self sacrifice and tragedy, one might say. I havent had a chance to fully define this cycle or name it but maybe i will one day.

In any case, the most moral thing you can do in mdzs, and in a lot of cultivation novels in fact, is to have Unwavering Morals. Lan Wangji is considered a paragon of morality by both the internal characters and us on the outside because he neved falters. He scolded Wwx when others praised him, and stood by his side when the world turned against him, and never compromised his own morals and decisions for any selfish reason. Wwx is the same way, despite all the tragedy, and thats why wwx and lwj respect each other from the start. AND this doesnt necessarily mean that they are making the 100% pure, unproblematic uwu they did nothing wrong decisions, this is entirely that they do not compromise what they feel is right for the sake of public opinion.

Jgy, on the other hand, is immoral because of his lack of Unfaltering Morals. He will cross any boundary he may have, change any opinion, adjust any morality, and compromise his own feelings in order to achieve greateness. To the point where a lot of times it feels like he doesn't have a sense of personal morality, only a sense of desire and ambition where anything is negotiable as long as the outcome is what he wants.

And this isnt to say none of his decisions were GOOD or didn't Benefit the Greater Good, cause its clear he did a lot of positives for cultivation society as a whole. Wwx comments how the guy is likeable and at the end of the novel, wwx doesnt really habe any personal gripe with Jgy. And you could say 'Wait! jgy does a lot of stuff for the sake of his mother, doesnt that count as self sacrifice?' but his mother kind of serves as an extension of his own ego, a dead justification for the things he does rather than a person in the story who contributes. she is the same as the guanyin statue with her likeness, passively watching over the plot, dead and unable to voice any opinion and unable to be someone who things are sacrificed for. Inherently separate from the cycle of self sacrifice.

Jgy and wwx are foils, is what it boils down to. Which doesnt mean theyre the same or make the same decisions, but their actions and decisions contrast with each other to point out and emphasize certain character traits and details. They have similar backgrounds, but make the opposite choices and yet their outcomes end up almost the same. Cycles yada yada yada.

Also, postscript, nobody likes jgs and while jgy doss eventually kill him, i think some people who dont like jgy are still pissed that he ever helped jgs for any reason, which is so valid. i hate jgs too.

MXTX: so the story starts with the main character's death. Then we unravel his story and how he tried his best but had to resort to fucked up methods in order to create real change and save lives, how society supported him while it benefited them and then turned on him when it was convenient, how his complicated social status of being gentry-adjacent was intrinsically tied into every decision he made AND how he was judged before during and after those decisions, how he experienced abuse and abandonment and support and love, saved lives AND killed people. He sacrificed everything but never compromised his ideals once, and it got him killed.

MXTX: and then we close the story on the death of this other guy, who we're also shown having gone through ALL THAT SAME STUFF, except this guy compromises every single time and that ALSO got him killed.

MXTX: neither of them were killed because it was "right" to, or because they were "evil", but because those with power in society were done with them. Their past actions were used to excuse their executions, and it's kinda fucked up actually, wouldn't you say?

MDZS fandom: 1 billion years of meta on why JGY is an irredeemable villain, and WWX is a pure cinnamon roll

[pumpkinpaix]

Want a *really* unpopular opinion? I not only *liked* the Incense Burner extras but found them sexy, as a portrayal of two dorks using potentially dangerous magical R&D as a tool for exploring their past feelings and history and negotiating consent by trial and error and error and error.

ANON YOU FUCKING GET IT | STRONGLY AGREE | agree | neutral | disagree | strongly disagree

slams hands on table  C O R R E C T

you know what, i’ll do you one better, not only did i like them and find them sexy, i ALSO found them extremely meaningful and important!! i will defend the incense burners unto death, you can pry them from my cold dead hands!!!!

not to get super emo and personal about like, kinda silly smut, but you know what, it’s that kind of night so let’s GO oversharing time, and maybe it will help someone along the way!!! isn’t that what vulnerability is for!!!!

i don’t know if it’s common knowledge that i have ocd -- i haven’t made a secret of it or anything -- but: i suffer from pretty terrible intrusive thoughts and when you add that together with intense moral scrupulosity issues + a complicated relationship to shame and sex, you get some pretty rough thoughtcrime, self-hatred, and sex-related neuroses. i was so completely horrified by the idea of wanting sex that I thought i was ace for like, the better part of my teen years. i’m really grateful to the ace spaces i was lucky enough to find in that time because they gave me a place to feel safe while I was still figuring shit out, and I still feel a lot of kinship with them because even if i’m not ace, sex is still Difficult for me as a concept and aspec people Get It.

together with just my generally really fucked up thoughts, plus the rise of purity culture etc, i have A Lot of fear about my inner self being perceived because there’s a part of me that is convinced that if anyone really knew me, they’d find me disgusting, that they’d think i was a genuinely bad and dirty person beyond redemption. that no matter how hard i tried to be good, i was doomed to fail because there was something wrong with me internally and inherently. that like, no matter how kind or helpful or dutiful or accomplished or smart or thoughtful i tried to be, it wouldn’t make a difference!!!

im getting over it lol don’t worry

but the point is: the incense burners, especially the one in the library, really embody the ultimate fantasy of a person you love seeing your most shameful thoughts and desires and not only NOT abandoning you, but saying “oh shit, that’s hot”. can you understand the palpable relief of that!!!! ;A; and!! to take it one step further, it’s not even a big deal! wei wuxian laughs and is like ohohoho?? hanguang-jun? like this secret that lan wangji was carrying and fearing was just like. kinda cute and funny. that there was nothing to fear at all.

screams into my hands

i joke about being shuangbi kin all the time, except like, it isn’t a joke. the moment when wei wuxian notices that lan wangji is tense, when lan wangji says, “stop looking,” and tries to leave -- idk i just. i felt for him so hard there. stop looking at me. what if you don’t like what you see?

but wei wuxian does like it! and wei wuxian doesn’t think any worse of lan wangji, doesn’t think he’s fallen or disgraceful. lan wangji is still lan wangji, still hanguang-jun, still upright, still 雅正. and the narrative does the same: it never implies that lan wangji is any less of a good person because of this. it’s just an inside joke for the other extras: that lan wangji looks like the sort of person who’s a perpetual virgin because that’s what people expect from someone of his character and demeanor, but he isn’t.

i can’t like. begin to explain how much i treasure this dumb smut. it’s not the best smut i’ve ever read, not by a long shot, but it’s not anywhere near as terrible as a lot of people make it out to be. just. i got to read this thing. where a character i already identified with had his fucked up thoughts about sex perceived and accepted and loved, and it was a character who looked and sounded and thought like me!! down to the obsession with rules and fairness. a chinese character!!! and someone the narrative pretty consistently positions as a sympathetic and lovable person!! mdzs was my first danmei, so it’s entirely possible this isn’t revolutionary whatsoever. maybe this is a super common trope! idk! but it was really revelatory to me. that these really intensely complicated characters we’ve just spent like 500k learning about and falling in love with are also weird kinky dumbasses who don’t know shit. and that both can be true! and that’s presented as a fun, delightful thing! god!!!! i care them! i am so grateful to mxtx for it, regardless of anything else, i am grateful that she gave me this.

anyways, thanks for giving me this outlet anon and also like, letting me experience a version of that relief: oh i’m not alone!

(ko-fi)

🍵 ((un)popular) opinions meme

[spockandawe]

Well, this is interesting! So, in that post yesterday, there was one line that really baffled me, a thing about people brushing off a character as an asshole “because he shows literally zero growth.” I kind of set that aside because it was such a weird non-sequitur, and guessed that it was just someone’s sentences not quite keeping up with their train of thought, which has happened to me many times. Apparently I was wrong! I already spent long enough on that one post, I’m tired of talking about that, but this is new and interesting. 

Okay. I kind of wanted to see if I could talk about this purely in terms of abstracts and not characters, but I don’t think it’ll work. It would be frustrating to write and confusing to read. It’s about Jiang Cheng. Right up front: This isn’t about whether or not he’s an abuser. Frankly, I don’t think it’s relevant. This also isn’t about telling people they should like him. I don't care whether anyone else likes him or not. But I do like him, and I am always fascinated by dissecting the reasons that people disagree with me. And the process of Telling Stories is my oldest hyperfixation I remember, which will become relevant in a minute.

I thought I had a good grasp on this one, you know? Jiang Cheng makes it pretty obvious why people would dislike Jiang Cheng. But then the posts I keep stumbling over were making weird points, culminating in that “literally zero growth” line.

So! What happened is that someone wrote up a post about how Jiang Cheng’s character arc isn’t an arc, it’s stagnation. It’s a pretty interesting read, and I broadly agree with the larger point! The points where I would quibble are like... the idea that it’s absolute stagnation, as opposed to very subtle shifts that still make a material difference. But still, cool! The post was also offered up as a reason why OP was uninterested in writing any more Jiang Cheng meta, which I totally get. I’m not tired of him yet, but I definitely understand why someone who isn’t a fan of his would get tired about writing about a character with a very static arc. Okay!

Now, internet forensics are hard. I desperately wish I had more information about this evolution, because I find this stuff fascinating, but I have no good way to find things said in untagged posts, reblogs, or private/external venues. But as far as I can tell, that “literally zero growth” wasn’t just a slip of the tongue, it’s become fashionable for people to say that Jiang Cheng is an abusive asshole (that it’s fucked up to like) because he doesn’t have a character arc.

Asshole? Yes. Abusive? This post still isn’t about that. This is about it being fucked up to like this character because he did bad things and had a static character arc.

At first, that point of view was still deeply confusing to me. But I think I figured out the idea at the core of it, and now I’m only baffled. I’m not super interested in confirming this directly, because the people making the most noise about this have not inspired confidence in their ability to hold a civil conversation and I’m a socially anxious binch, but I think the idea is: ‘This character did Bad Things, and then did not improve himself.’

Which is alarmingly adjacent to that old favorite standard of ‘This piece of fiction is glorifying Bad Thing.’ I haven’t seen anyone accusing mxtx of something something jiang cheng, only the people who read/watched/heard the story and became invested in the Jiang Cheng character, but things kind of add up, you know?

Like I said, I don’t want to arbitrate anyone’s right to like/dislike Jiang Cheng. That’s such a fucking waste of time. But this is fascinating to me, because it’s like..... so obviously new and sudden, with such a clear originating point. I can’t speak to the Chinese fans, obviously, but exiledrebels started translating in... what, 2017? And only now, in 2021, do people start putting forth Jiang Cheng’s flat character arc as a “reason” that he’s bad? I’m not going to argue if he pings you in the abuse place, I’m not a dick. I’m not going to argue if you just dislike his vibes. I’m just over here on my blog and in the tag enjoying myself, feel free to detour around me. But oh my god, it’s so silly to try to tell other people that they shouldn’t like him because he has a static character arc.

I want to talk about stories. I don’t know how much I’ll be able to say, because it’s impossible to make broad, sweeping statements, because there are stories about change, there are stories about lack of change, there are all kinds of media that can be used to tell stories, and standards for how stories are told and what they emphasize vary across cultures and over time. But I think that what I can say is that telling a story requires... compromise. It requires streamlining. Trying to capture all the detail of life would slow down most stories to an unbearable degree. Consider organically telling someone ‘I made a peanut butter and jelly sandwich’ versus the computer science exercise of having students describe, step by step, how to make one (spread peanut butter? but you never said you opened the lid)

Hell, I’ve got an example in mdzs itself. The largely-faceless masses of the common people. If someone asks you to think about it critically like, yes, obviously these are people, living their own lives, with their own desires, sometimes suffering and dying in the wake of the novel plot. But does the story give weight to those deaths? Or does it just gloss by? Yes, it references their suffering occasionally, but it is not the focus, and it would slow the story unbearably to give equal weight to each dead person mentioned. 

Does Wei Wuxian’s massacre get given the same slow, careful consideration as Su She’s, or Jin Guangyao’s? No, because taking the time to weigh our protagonist with ‘well, this one was a mother, and her youngest son had just started walking, but now he’s going to grow up without remembering her face. that one only became an adult a few months ago, he still hasn’t been on many night-hunts yet, but he finds it so rewarding to protect the common people. oh, and this one had just gotten engaged, but don’t worry, his fiancee won’t mourn him, because she died here as well.’ And continuing on that way to some large number under 3000? No! Unless your goal is to make the reader feel bad for cheering for a morally grey hero, that would be a bad authorial decision! The book doesn’t ignore the issue, it comes up, Wei Wuxian gets called out about all the deaths he’s responsible for, but that’s not the same as them being given equal emotional weight to one (1) secondary character, and I don’t love this new thing where people are pretending that’s equivalent.

When Wei Wuxian brutally kills every person at the Wen supervisory office, are you like ‘holy shit... so many grieving families D:’ or are you somewhere between vindicated satisfaction and an ‘ooh, yikes’ wince? Odds are good you’re somewhere in the satisfaction/wince camp, because that’s what the story sets you up to feel, because the story has to emphasize its priorities (priorities vary, but ‘plot’ and ‘protagonist’ are common ones, especially for a casual novel read like this)

Now, characters. If you want to write a story with a sweeping, epic scale, or if you want to tightly constrain the number of people your story is about, I guess it’s possible to give everyone involved a meaningful character arc. Now.... is it always necessary? Is it always possible? Does it always make sense? No, of course not. If you want to do that, you have to devote real estate to it, and depending on the story you want to tell, it could very possibly be a distraction from your main point, like the idea of mxtx tenderly eulogizing every single character who dies even incidentally. Lan Qiren doesn’t get a loving examination of his feelings re: his nephews and wei wuxian and political turnover in the cultivation world because it’s not relevant, and also, because his position is pretty static until right near the end of the story. Lan Xichen is arguably one of the most static characters within the book, he seems like the same nice young between Gusu and the present, right up until... just before the end of the story.

You may see where I’m heading with this.

Like, just imagine trying to demand that every important character needs to go through a major life change before the end of your book or else it didn’t count. This just in, Granny Weatherwax and Nanny Ogg go through multiple novels without experiencing radical shifts in who they are, stop liking them immediately. I do get that the idea is that Jiang Cheng was a ~bad person~ who didn’t change, but asdgfsd I thought we were over the handwringing over people being allowed to like ““bad”” fictional characters. The man isn’t even a canonical serial killer, he’s not my most problematic fave even within this novel.

And here is where it’s a little more relevant that I would quibble with that original post about Jiang Cheng’s arc. He’s consistently a mean girl, but he goes from stressed, sharp-edged teenager, to grief-stricken, almost-destroyed teen, to grim, cold young adult (and then detours into grim, cold, and grief-stricken until grief dulls with time). He does become an attentive uncle tho. He..... doesn’t experience a radical change in his sense of self, which... it’s...... not all that strange for an adult. And bam, then he DOES experience a radical change, but the needs of the plot dictate that it’s right near the end. And he’s not the focus of the story, baby, wangxian is. He has the last few lines of the story, which nicely communicate his changes to me, but also asdfafas we’re out of story. He was never the main character, it’s not surprising we don’t linger! The extras aren’t beholden to the needs of plot, but they’re also about whatever mxtx wanted to write, and I guess she didn’t feel like writing about Jiang Cheng ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

But also. Taking a step backward. Stable characters can fill a perfectly logical place in a story. Like, look at Leia Organa. I’m not saying she has no arc, but I am saying that she’s a solid point of reference as Luke is becoming a jedi and Han is adjusting his perspective. I wouldn’t call her stagnant, the vibes are wrong, but she also isn’t miserable in her sadness swamp, the way Jiang Cheng is.

Or, hell, look at tgcf. The stagnant, frozen nature of the big bad is a central feature of the story. The bwx of now is the bwx of 800 years ago is the bwx of 1500+ years ago. This is not the place for a meta on how that was bad for those around him and for him himself, but I have Thoughts about how being defeated at the end is both a thing that hurts him and relieves him. Mei Nianqing is a sympathetic character who’s also pretty darn static. Does Ling Wen have a character arc, or do we just learn more about who she already is and what her priorities always were? I’m going to cut myself off here, but a character’s delta between the beginning of a story and the end of a story is a reasonable way to judge how interesting writing character meta is, and is a very silly metric to judge their worth, and even if I guessed at what the basic logic is, for this character, I am still baffled that it’s being put forth as a real talking point.

(also, has it jumped ship to any other characters yet? have people started applying it in other fandoms as well? please let me know if this is the case, I am wildly curious)

(no, but really, if anyone is arguing that bwx is gross specifically because he had centuries to self-reflect and didn’t fix himself, i am desperate to know)

And finally. The thing I thought was most self-evident. Did I post about this sometime recently? If a non-central character experiences a life-altering paradigm shift right near the end of the story (without it being lingered over, because non-central character), oh my god. As a fic writer? IT’S FREE REAL ESTATE. This is the most fertile possible ground. If I want to write post-canon canon-compliant material, adsgasfasd that’s where I’m going to be looking. Okay, yeah, the main couple is happy, that’s good. Who isn’t happy, and what can I do about that? Happy families are all alike, while every unhappy family is unhappy in its own way, etc.

It’s not everyone’s favorite playground, but come on, these are not uncommon feelings. And frankly, it’s starting to feel a little disingenuous when people act like fan authors pick out the most blameless angel from the cast and lavish good things upon them. I’m not the only one who goes looking for a good dumpster fire and says I Live Here Now. If I write post-canon tgcf fic, it’s very likely to focus on beef and/or leaf. I have written more than one au focusing on tianlang-jun.

And, hilariously. If the problem with Jiang Cheng. Is that he is a toxic man fictional character who failed to grow on his own, and is either unsafe or unhealthy to be around. If the problem is that he did not experience a character arc. If these people would be totally fine with other people liking him, if he improved himself as a person.��And then, if authors want to put in the (free! time-consuming!) work of writing that character development themselves. You would think that they would be lauded for putting the character through healthier sorts of personal growth than he experienced in canon. Instead, I am still here writing this because first, I was bothered by these authors being named as “freaks” who are obsessed with their ‘uwu precious tsundere baby’ with a “love language of violence,” and then I was graciously informed that people hate Jiang Cheng because he experiences no character growth.