#ml bad writing

[generalluxun]

Okay, so I've been trying to conceive an explanation that doesn't make every teacher Chloe has ever had completely incompetent. But the best I've come up with is that anytime a teacher tried to discuss Chloe's serious education problems with Andre, he responded by getting them fired, which is a little too salty of a take even for him. And that would still imply a rather terrifying level of incompetence and corruption within the Parisian school system.

Literally every school Chloe has ever attended needs to be investigated to determine just how bad the situation is. Because if she really got away with this, she is most certainly not the only student that was failed by the system.

Congrats MLB writers, in your attempt to vilify Chloe for being dumb, you accidently salted the entire school system.

Basically, yes. Season 5 is absolutely rife with 'we didn't give a damn about narrative cohesion, we just slapped our personal desires on paper'. It's not even just Chloé either. The others have similar moments, and it's only going to get worse in the remaining episodes. It is actually baffling to me. Forget anti-Chloé agenda, it's like the entire writing team is just sick of ML at this point. If so, fire them and hire some of these amazing fanfic authors the community has.

Personally I don't feel it's too salty of a take for Andre, though not 'fired' just intimidated. He is the 'Symbol of Paris' if you recall. Anything that looks bad must be ignored.

Check out my 'Miraculous Gothic AU' for my current opinion of the Bourgeois parents. The current fic going up 'Being Bull Headed' will have them showing up near the end.

[miraculouslbcnreactions]

The Best Friend Showdown

Season four had many, many flaws. One of the big ones was the Rena Rouge vs Chat Noir conflict where Ladybug starts relying on Alya more and more, basically using her to replace Master Fu. We get a sense that Chat Noir feels inferior to Rena Rouge because of this change, but it’s never directly addressed. The most we get is this conversation from Hack-San:

Ladybug: I'm really sorry, Cat Noir. I should've told you. I mean, if I found out that you told someone about your secret identity, I'd... probably be upset, too. I'm really sorry I hurt your feelings. Cat Noir: You didn't hurt my feelings. You did everything right. 

Which is actually a really weird bit of dialogue because - as far as I can tell - nothing in the episode revealed that Scarabella knew Ladybug's identity. She hands out miraculous all the time and no one knows who she really is. Why would this time be different? Ladybug could just show up in costume, explain what's up, and then hand off the earrings while using yet another miraculous.

Anyway, the Rena Rouge vs Chat Noir conflict is “resolved” by Rena Rouge being outed again (and I guess that matters this time), leading her to give up her miraculous so that Gabriel can’t steal it away, which of course leads Gabriel to steal it away and fully disempower Ladybug’s larger team, leaving Chat Noir her only teammate.

How satisfying! This is such good, character-driven story telling!

It’s not. This is plot contrivances to the max with no meaningful character beats, but we’re not here to talk about that. We’re here to do one of my favorite things: gush about a relevant Kim Possible episode! Today’s topic is episode 12 of season one: Pain King vs. Cleopatra, the episode that introduces Kim’s female BFF, Monique!

This was a bit of a shocker for me because I didn’t realize that Kim and Monique weren’t pre-series friends. Turns out that, much like Alya, Monique is a new girl, which isn’t a bad call. This was a nice way to delay Monique’s introduction for a few episodes so that the writers could focus on establishing Kim’s relationship with other key members of the cast like her partner, Ron. Spacing out your intros is the way to go whenever you can pull it off as it’s a kindness to your audience that keeps them from feeling overwhelmed, making it more likely that they’ll remember your cast.

The other, more important similarity between Alya and Monique is that, when Kim’s hero partner and life-long friend finds out about Monique, he is less than thrilled:

Kim: I barely got to see them. Right after I hooked up with Monique, the museum was robbed by some glowing-headed animal guy. Ron: Oh, that's nice. Ron: Wait a minute, who's Monique? Kim New friend, really great. Anyway, the thief stole an enchanted ancient talisman. Ron: Whoa, whoa, back up! How can I not know about a new friend? Kim: I met her at Club Banana, then again at the museum before I chased the glowing robber. Ron: So what's she like? Kim: The robber? Ron: The friend, Kim, the "new friend".

Throughout the episode, Kim and Monique continue to bond without Ron, leaving Ron feeling left out:

Ron: Seein' a pattern here, Rufus: Kim does her thing, I do my thing, and pretty soon - we're doing different things.

Which leads him to get a little territorial:

Kim Ron! What are you doing here? Ron: Can I dine with my best friend and her new friend? Kim: Uuh, Ron, Monique, and vice versa. Ron: Bearclaw? Monique: No, thanks, I'm vegetarian. Ron: Uhm, I'm pretty sure it's imitation bear? Kim: She's joking, Ron. Ron: Good one, hahaha, ha, good one. So, did Kim tell you that I'm her sidekick? Cause that role is definitely taken by me. Monique: Riiiight. Well, in... you know I better get to class. Later, Kim. Um, n-nice meeting you, Ron. Ron: Likewise, I'm sure! Kim: What is your problem? You're acting really weird. Ron: Well, let's see. You went to the museum with Monique, not me. Monique was with you this morning, not me. Hmm, pattern? Kim: Yeah. You. Weird. Ron: No, we're drifting apart because you're excluding me. Kim: I am not excluding you. It's just that you and Monique are... different.

Noticing some similarities to Miraculous here?

So how does Kim Possible resolve this conflict?

Well, the plot of this episode resolves around Kim Possible’s version of professional wrestling, the GWA. There’s a competition going on that Kim has no interest in watching (mood), but when Kim mentions the GWA to Monique:

Monique: Why didn't you bring [Ron] along? Kim: Unless someone put a waiter in a headlock, this is definitely not Ron's scene. Besides, he had a date with "Steel Toe". Monique: He scored tickets to Mayhem in Middleton? The GWA rocks! Kim: What?

It turns out that Monique and Ron have a shared interest! Multiple shared interests, in fact! Interests that Kim does not share:

Monique: You know, I still can't believe you met Pain King and Steel Toe. Ron: I can't believe you're into wrestling. Kim: I can't believe I know either one of you.

By the end of the episode, the conflict is resolved not with Kim having to pick a BFF or with Monique somehow being demoted, but by showing that this didn’t need to be a conflict at all. Kim can have multiple close friends that she shares different interests with without any of those friends being lesser. Those friends can, in turn, have their own friendships that don’t always involve her.

It’s a genuinely lovely resolution that makes me love this little friend group because it now has added complexity. Monique and Ron are friends in their own right! Kim is not the center of the universe in spite of her main character status!

I also love that Kim isn’t vilified for having other friends or portrayed as constantly leaving Ron out of things that he'd want to do in favor of Monique. Ron genuinely would not enjoy most of the things that the girls love to do together. At the same time, Ron’s feeling aren’t treated as totally irrational either and Kim even admits to ditching him. It’s a genuine, complex conflict that is super common when someone enters a new relationship be it platonic or romantic.

Obviously Kim Possible’s version of this conflict feels far less complex than Miraculous’ because Kim Possible understood that Ron should be Kim’s one-and-only partner, so his position was really never threatened. Monique does not want to be an action hero and is never given the sort narrative weight that elevates her to Ron’s level or higher, but that doesn't matter. The basic lesson here is still relevant and super important for the intended audience of both of these shows.

There did not need to be a Rena Rouge vs Chat Noir conflict that never got properly resolved. Miraculous could have made these two friends and no, Scarabella doesn't count because Chat Noir has no idea that Scarabella is Rena Rouge/Furtive. Their relationship ended at the end of Hack-San. He didn't even know that Rena Furtive was a thing until she was in the process of being benched and that's the problem.

Kim Possible is not a team show, Miraculous is, and yet Kim Possible has better team dynamics than Miraculous. Monique could have joined Kim's team at the end of Pain King vs. Cleopatra and it would have felt natural because both Kim and Ron had welcomed Monique and formed a genuine bond with her. This is a true friend group that Miraculous can only dream of even though they've been adding new superheroes since season two.

We're going into a season with a full, massive team and yet that team has no established dynamics on the hero side. It's not a functional team! None of these characters have meaningful relationships with each other as heroes save for Alya and Nino since they know each other’s secret identities. The only relationships Miraculous cares about are the various romances and everyone's relationship to Marinette and everyone suffers for it.

The show would not have been harmed by Rena Rouge, Chat Noir, and Ladybug being a team. It was the thing I kept think after watching the Kim Possible episode. Since the team is the end game, why aren't we seeing them? It would have been so nice to have Hack-San end with Ladybug introducing Chat Noir to Rena Furtive instead of a nonsense discussion about an issue the episode didn't even address.

[zoe-oneesama]

Wait uh I think missed something, why's the statue scene getting so much hate? Like yeah it's horrific second hand embarassment but practicing a love confession with what she thinks is a fake statue of her crush is like. The most normal thing Marinette has done wrt to her cringe teenage crush

Season 5 likes to pretend that it's the moment that Adrien started falling for Marinette:

Since we already hate the scene for the cringe level of second-hand embarrassment, them forcing us to make this scene important 2 seasons later is mega-annoying. Like, 2 Seasons ago Adrien's "feelings changed"???? Because it sure didn't seem that way to anyone watching!

And I'm extra dead because they had the scene in Season 4 where Marinette gave her genuine love confession to "Buttercup" and you can literally see Chat Noir be touched and moved by it and THAT SHOULD'VE BEEN WHERE THINGS STARTED TO CHANGE-

[nostalgebraist]

Due to recent experiences, I am feeling an urge to make an anti-drug-style PSA except it's warning impressionable machine-learning-curious teens to never, ever try a thing called "Huggingface transformers Trainer"

Not. Even. Once.

[generalluxun]

FWIW *waves at leaks* it has a purpose, but it's a dumb one.

Yeah I mean. Chloe and Lila's rage is usually targetted at a specific few who they know are their enemies, whether by their own design or by proxy of being in the way. Marinette because she refuses to fall or stand for their bs, the classmates who figure them out (too little too late but i digress) or fight back, and anyone else whose a direct obstacle in the way that they can't "work around".

But Adrien has this bad habit (called bad writting) where he will target anybody whose immediately within the vicinity with his ire. Scarabella, doesn't think, attacks first like a psychopath. Uncanny Valley, stupidity not befitting of how long he's supposedly been a hero, hardly caring of the consequence until they tell him to come back then it doesn't matter anyway. Chat Blanc doesn't count for the most part, him trying to cataclysm Gabriel could honestly be considered somewhat heroic if we didn't know he has know idea what it would actually do. And the thing is, with how volatile we know he can be (counting from season 3 and beyond), the narrative has always had a tendency to show this as a momentary lapse in judgement instead of what it actually is. A personality flaw that has gotten progressively worse and more obvious as the seasons continued, that is apparently never going to be resolved or acknowledged. That's why Adrien is ultimately the worse out of the three.

While I’m not arguing that he’s worse, I do think it’s become a serious problem with his character having a hair trigger and attacking anyone even after supposedly feeling bad about cataclysming Hawkmoth (something I feel is OOC based on his previous and later actions). I only compared it to Chloé and Lila to show “hey why is this supposed hero character trying to rack up a body count surpassing the supposed worst of the worst”.

The show keeps including these scenes and they’re supposed to portray just how hurt or protective adrichat is but all their doing is beating his character to death. I can’t say people are exaggerating his violent behavior anymore bc it’s a consistent trait by now. I remember I was once going to make a post about how ridiculous it is to portray him as a murderer in waiting but then I remembered canon has had him intentionally try to kill four times! I was foolish enough to think he’d change after accidentally cataclysming HM and realizing how serious it is but no! Let’s have him try to do it two more times in the same season! And it’s incredible just how much of the fandom eats it up and doesn’t think it’s kinda messed up.

[tex-now]

Chameleon is the most ableist episode in all of Miraculous Ladybug holy fucking shit

this is all gonna be pre season 4 jsyk

Also serious note here, my words are not gospel. I myself am not physically disabled nor do I have severe enough disabilities that it requires specific accommodations. If anyone who has any experience with this has any input they want to add or wants to correct me on anything, you are more than welcome to.

Okay let's go

Immediately off to a bad start, Marinette is upset that she has to sit in the back because she doesn't want Lila to sit next to Adrien and no, this is not because she wasn't talked to about it beforehand, because when Adrien offered to sit in the back in her place Marinette adamantly refused.

And since Marinette really was causing such an unnecessary ruckus, (ill be momentarily ignoring that Lila was lying) she was making Lila feel bad for needing accommodations. Which is super fucked up of her. And also i distinctly remember Lila cuddling up to Adrien which made Marinette angrier but that's not in the transcript so take this with a grain of salt.

Okayyy the dreaded lunch scene. I have a lot of problems with this scene so I'll do the biggest one first: The fact that the narrative states that Lila is in any way benefiting from having a disability.

People carrying her lunch trays, getting her food, making sure she doesn't have to lift a finger because of her sprained wrist and treating it like shes benefiting from it is like. Atrocious on so many levels. Not only does it state that Lila is benefiting from having a disability but it also frames making accommodations for people with disabilities as being "used" in some way, which is why disabled people don't usually get the accommodations they need because they don't get "special privileges" or the people who should be accomodating them "refuse to play favorites." Horrible thing to teach children.

And then. The napkin scene. I'm gonna say it. Marinette is the fucking worst in this episode. She is being actively ableist here, assuming that since she had one bad experience with Lila being a liar, that she's lying about everything, including having a disability, which leads to her to try and "prove" that Lila is lying. Which is super fucked up.

She throws the napkin at her in order to prove that she's lying about having a sprained wrist, and since she doesn't like Lila this is an entirely okay thing to do ig/s. The reason why this scene in particular upsets me so much is because stuff like this happens in real life all the fucking time, and people have suffered because of it.

Neurodivergent and disabled people have to fight for accommodations or to be taken seriously, by literally everyone around them while neurotypical or able bodied people constantly brush them off or interrogate them in order to prove that they are disabled, and having the main character do someting like that and end up having her be framed in the right (eventually) is abelist as fuck.

The bathroom scene is also incredibly gross to me. Marinette corners Lila in the bathroom and LITERALLY SAYS (paraphrased) "I don't have the proof for it, but I know you're lying about your disability because you lied about being friends with a celebrity so therefore I get to be ableist as fuck towards you >:(" I don't think I have to explain why that's ableist.

Okay. The elephant in the room. Lila IS faking her disabilities. She IS pretending to have them in order to benefit off of other people. This is the biggest problem in the entire episode.

The narrative itself supports the idea that

1. People benefit from having disabilities

2. Attempting to "prove" that someone doesn't have a disability is okay

3. Making accommodations for people with disabilities is "using" the accommodating party in any way

4. Being ableist is okay as long as you're right in the end

And that is hammered in by this scene in particular. Marinette is being egregiously abelist throughout the entire episode and IS being the bad guy here but since the writer's need to make her NOT look like the bad guy turns out she's right Lila is faking everything and is evil lol/s

Its not just the characters themselves that are being ableist, the writing itself is so ableist that it is literally imbedded into the story of this episode and is essential in order for it to work at all. Which is a huge writing failure on the writer's part.

Okay I think I'm done. Is this coherent at all

Edit: Okay I think I failed to adequately criticize lila's part in this post. I think that what Lila did was egregiously disgusting and was incredibly uncomfortable to watch, but im not really sure what to say about it? I have thoughts on the matter yes but because Lila is such a nothing (until season 5/4 which I haven't really gotten to yet) character other than being Evil that it's hard to get frustrated with her in particular outside of my frustration with this episode in particular.

I'm very sure it's not clear so I'll say now: I like Marinette and hate Lila. But I also want to make sure that I'm criticizing the episode without my biases getting into the way, but I ended up going too hard on Marinette and not hard enough on Lila. Which. Is my mistake. Not that its anything to apologize for it's my post but I wanted to clarify

[ilikekidsshows]

The Totally Spies-ification of Adrien

Okay, it's been long enough that I can actually discuss how Adrien's slavery is depicted in the show without anger-fueled exaggerations and hyperbole. I want to discuss how Miraculous treats Adrien's slavery very flippantly and how it is, like everything in this show post-retool, all about Marinette. The show has a lot of stuff that hints that the writers intend for Adrien to be viewed a very certain way. I believe the writers made Adrien a slave for Marinette’s benefit and I will explain how I came to this conclusion.

I’ve joked before about how Astruc has worked on Totally Spies, “one of the kinkiest cartoons ever made”. I’d like to tackle this idea and how it relates to Miraculous more seriously. I’d like to tackle the topic of titillation and how it relates to how this show approaches slavery with such flippancy. My claim is that Adrien being a slave is not meant to be horrifying, which is why the story doesn't treat it as such; it's meant to be titillating.

I usually don't use Read Mores, since they can lead to broken links later, but this is really long. Strap in, folks.

Titillation for the context of this analysis means “content with the intention to excite romantically or sexually”, basically it’s about “kinky” stuff. The purpose of talking about sexuality in relation to Miraculous is not to paint the writers as some kind of fiends, but to present the fact that many teenagers are curious about romance and sex and will think about sex unprompted. This means titillating content in cartoons doesn’t even need to be related to sex to be titillating. And Astruc has a history of putting titillating stuff in his work, with Totally Spies being a very notable example of how you can include non-sexual titillating content in a kids’ show.

It all comes down to expected audience reactions. Adrien is meant to be sexy. I don’t mean that in a “the writers think this is sexy” way, but a “the writers think the projected audience of straight teenage girls will think this is sexy” way. He gets put into bondage three times in ‘Copycat’, ‘Anti-Bug’ and ‘Reverser’ and all three times the camera seems to like to show him off. He is meant to be an object of attraction for the audience. The people criticizing this show have been pointing out how Ladybug's costume accentuates her butt for years, but this is not something that occurs with just Ladybug. When he isn't posing for the viewers, Cat Noir gets whacked around by Akuma’s a lot, but a lot of the time it ends with him in a prone position that is also titillating, in ‘Pixelator’ it goes as far as having his butt jut out. However, the idea that Cat Noir is the one who gets hit when an Akuma needs to show off how dangerous they are is also part of the power dynamic where Marinette or Ladybug gets to show off, so it’s not purely for titillation, which is why other examples, like ‘Stormy Weather’ are more comedic.

It’s likely that Adrien-as-Adrien doesn’t get to participate in the show’s slapstick much, since that aspect of the character is presented as the perfect beauty, a role usually reserved for female characters who only ever get a little bit flustered or banged up to make sure they keep looking attractive. Marinette screams "waack" and runs face first into a wall in the same episode where the silliest thing Adrien gets to do is sneeze (Mr Pigeon). Adrien is meant to be attractive, sexy, titillating, in different ways in his different forms. As Cat Noir he is more active and more sexy, as Adrien he’s more passive and pretty, much like how female love interests can fall into these categories. It’s the Betty and Veronica dichotomy; in the Archie franchise Betty and Veronica are shown as the wholesome and sexy romance options and the reason the writers go out of their way not to resolve the love triangle is to keep the appeal of these both options going. People’s tastes differ, so it would alienate some audiences to pick one over the other. With Miraculous they solved the problem by having the two romance options be the different identities of a single character.

Frankly, as of the season five finale, Adrien is approaching “sexy lamp” levels of replicating sexist ways of writing a female character but just changing the gender. What else do you call him lying on the floor in despair while his love interest gets his superpowers and uses them to beat up his abusive father, while somehow being perfectly fine and happily kissing Marinette later after said father is dead and gone? Adrien’s trauma is debilitating when it serves the writers’ purposes, but stops being a problem as soon as they need him to smile and look pretty. The main reason Adrien’s trauma is so inconsistent is so that he can act as Marinette’s trophy so that Marinette has somebody to kiss in the final shot. If Adrien was despairing about not being good enough for her, or grossly crying about being an orphan, Marinette wouldn’t have a fun time kissing him. And if Marinette isn’t having fun, the members of the audience projecting onto her aren’t having fun either.

Speaking of how Adrien’s depiction relates to Marinette, here comes the controversial part of this post: while Marinette is not depicted as a literal slave owner in-story, narratively, she is very much treated as Adrien's owner from a meta perspective. We, the viewers, are meant to see Adrien as Marinette's property, and the twist of Adrien being a part of a slave race in a dynamic where Marinette holds all the cards is meant to be a good thing. We have been primed to view everything about Adrien to actually be about Marinette, because Marinette is the center of the universe of Miraculous and Adrien belongs to her because he’s the main character’s love interest. Adrien being revealed to be a slave that Marinette could control but then chooses to “merely” manipulate is meant to be glorifying to Marinette and titillating to the viewer. I will elaborate.

Marinette has been incredibly possessive of Adrien since day one and she is only occasionally depicted as being in the wrong about this, when she goes too far by the show’s standards. She stalks Lila and Adrien whenever she sees them hanging out together and she’s unreasonably jealous of Kagami. The only time she is depicted as being in the wrong is not when she's sniffing Adrien's pillow after breaking into his room, but when she actually bullies Kagami out of jealousy, and even that is depicted as more of an unfortunate misunderstanding than Marinette actively doing something wrong. Marinette is more sympathetic towards Kagami when she finds out she and Adrien aren't as close as she thought, that Kagami’s pursuit of Adrien is more hopeless than hers. Basically, Marinette is only in the wrong because Kagami isn't a threat, not because she was doing anything wrong by bullying her to defend her “territory”.

This gets flipped near the end of the season, though. When Adrien and Kagami do start dating, it's depicted as this big tragedy even more so than Master Fu losing his memories. Master Fu going missing is an afterthought, while Adrien choosing someone else over Marinette is the big “darkest hour” moment of the season three mid-finale, the cliffhanger moment of her crying in Luka’s arms while all hope is lost. Marinette isn’t directly crying about this, she is crying from “all the pressure”, but Marinette breaking down happens immediately after a scene of Kagami leaning in to kiss Adrien that has a somber dirge playing in the background. The first part of the finale has everything going wrong at the end; Master Fu is missing, Chloé gets willingly Akumatized, Marinette breaks down, and Kagami leans in to kiss Adrien. These scenes being put closely together is telling us that these are all bad things to happen.

Adrien ending up with Marinette is a given, but it's also taken for granted. Every girl with an interest in Adrien is depicted as an antagonist, while Marinette can do whatever she wants in pursuit of Adrien and will still be morally correct. Chloé and Lila, even Kagami to a degree, are villainized for their attraction to Adrien in a way Nathaniel, Luka or Zoé are not with their attraction to Marinette. Chloé and Lila are full-blown villains while Luka and Zoé are some of the most selfless members of the cast. Kagami is aggressive and socially awkward in a way that is used to justify Marinette's initial distrust and dislike of her (in ‘Ikari Gozen’ Alya voices her pity towards Marinette for having to spend time with her) while Nathaniel is just the pitiful bullied loner who’s still a liked member of the class friend group. Girls who want Adrien are bad for trespassing on Marinette’s territory and trying to “steal” something that “belongs” to Marinette.

The writers thinking Adrien belongs to Marinette is also not just subtext. Later in season five, when Marinette and Adrien finally start dating, Marinette even outright states that Adrien “kinda does a little” belong to her when she’s scared that Zoé has a crush on him. The fumbling of the line means that the writers are aware of how toxic it is to consider your partner your property, but they want to include that sentiment anyway, because that’s how they view the situation. Marinette’s boyfriend is her property and other people can’t even look at her property. ‘Emotion’ continues on this increased possessiveness by having the entire Marinette plot happen because she can’t conceive Adrien keeping things from her, because he isn’t allowed privacy from her while Marinette lying to Adrien (or Cat Noir) is a show staple.

This same attitude of Adrien not being allowed to have romantic options outside of Marinette has also been in the fandom for years. Every time a new female character was introduced, there was a worry that she’d “try to steal Adrien from Marinette”. Marinette and Adrien are endgame, the writers know this and the fandom knows this. The characters don't know this, but it doesn't matter because Adrien was already seen as Marinette's (future) boyfriend even back in season one when he barely knew her. And this attitude the writers and audience have is extended to the characters more and more as the show goes on, as almost every single character becomes an Adrinette shipper in support of Marinette in season five, while no one thinks to ask Adrien what he thinks about this. Only once, in ‘Desperada’ did Alya suggest that Adrien could make his own choice on who to date, but it was implied the choice should be Marinette specifically (Marinette smiles at this, while Kagami frowns). The cast is lucky the writers have decided Adrien already is Marinette's, or he’d be really uncomfortable.

Season five episode ‘Pretension’ goes as far with this as having Marinette basically ask Gabriel for permission to be with Adrien, convinced that she and Adrien can be together with no problems if she can just get him to approve of her. And then Gabriel tells her he’s promised Adrien to Kagami. You know, like a piece of property women were treated as before women were allowed to live without a man to control them. The finale then ultimately does have Gabriel agree to hand Adrien over to Marinette by dying and leaving her in charge of Adrien. Just because she uses the privilege to do some things for Adrien’s benefit doesn’t make what happened any less of a patriarchal transaction. In fact, the writers wrote it that way on purpose, with the knight and princess parallels they set up between Marinette and Adrien earlier in the show being something they are prominently proud of (the “reverse fairytale” as they put it). Adrien is the princess the dashing hero Marinette gets to earn with her feats of bravery; he’s handed to her like a piece of property and Marinette is too happy with her acquisition to even be outraged on Adrien’s behalf. And Adrien wasn’t even allowed to know about any of this, instead it gets handled solely between Marinette and Gabriel, like his opinion on the matter didn’t even matter. And why would his opinion matter, since he already is ready to promise himself to Marinette, even as the writers deny him the agency to actually make such a promise.

The goal of making it obvious that Adrien is cool with being objectified like this is probably why they make Adrien so obsessed with Marinette in season five, constantly repeating her name to himself and saying stuff like: “I can’t stop thinking about you” in ‘Pretension’. They need to drive it home to the audience exactly how okay Adrien is with everyone forcing him to be with Marinette. After all, you can’t force the willing. As of ‘Confrontation’, Adrien’s official goals for the future are: “I love Marinette Dupain-Cheng.” I guess, from the perspective of the writers, the childhood dream of wanting to be what his parents wanted from ‘Wishmaker’ wasn’t sad because of Adrien’s lack of agency; it was sad because he wasn’t forsaking all of his personal pursuits for Marinette specifically. As far as the writers are concerned, Adrien should only care about Marinette and nothing else.

This same entitlement is also present in Ladybug and Cat Noir's relationship. Every time Cat Noir is upset with Ladybug, like in Frozer, Glaciator, Syren, The New York Special or even Kuro Neko, they never talk about what caused it. This is especially blatant in cases where Ladybug has wronged Cat Noir personally, like Kuro Neko or the NY Special, where she never has to face up to what she did wrong because Cat Noir comes back because she “needs him”.  Cat Noir will always come back to her without her having to do anything because she is the main character and she says she needs him. He exists for her and her needs. He exists for her; it’s just another way he’s hers.

Speaking of how Adrien is treated affects Marinette, even Adrien’s trauma actually belongs to her in the writing.  I pointed out earlier that Adrien’s trauma shows up when the writers need to put him out of commission, but disappears as soon as he needs to be Marinette’s trophy, but it goes further than just inconsistency. The early seasons spend several episodes on how Adrien is being locked up by his father and unable to hang out with his friends and, between him and Marinette, Marinette is the one shown to be more upset and hurt by this. They don’t do this in every episode, as ‘The Bubbler’ actually does a phenomenal job of making Adrien’s upset actually about him, but the big point in ‘Glaciator’ is that Marinette is so upset that she can’t see Adrien that she accidentally leaves Cat Noir on read so he’s upset about that. Adrien is only upset because he didn’t get attention from Marinette, while Adrien’s literal abuse at the hands of his father is only important because it makes Marinette upset. Even Adrien himself gets in on this action in ‘Conformation’ when the writers go as far as having Adrien chastise himself of not being more worthy of Marinette’s love when his dad is once again busy ruining his life. Even Adrien himself makes his abuse about Marinette; him being abused is bad because it’s inconveniencing Marinette and inconveniencing Marinette makes him less worthy of her.

‘Cat Blanc’ is possibly the worst offender of all, though. This episode should be all about how Adrien is abused by Gabriel, culminating with Gabriel turning him into a monster that destroys the world. And yet, what is the episode actually about? It’s about Marinette. The worst thing that could happen to Adrien is about Marinette. Only Marinette gets to remember or even know about the possibility of Cat Noir getting Akumatized and only Marinette is traumatized by it happening. After all that the writers later dare to use this event that didn’t actually happen anymore, that Adrien doesn’t know about, to justify him giving his powers to Marinette, because he’s “scared of getting Akumatized” when something like that has never happened as far as he knows. But the writers had him reason this way anyway, because apparently the culmination of Marinette’s character development in the show means taking Adrien’s power as her own and then failing to win even with that at her disposal.

Another note about ‘The Bubbler’ that has to be pointed out is that it’s also the first example of Marinette being presented as good for Adrien simply because she treats him better than Gabriel. The final scene of Marinette giving Adrien his best birthday present yet and letting him think it comes from Gabriel is done to show how selfless Marinette is by letting Adrien keep thinking good things about his abuser. This idea that Marinette is morally good simply because she’s better than pond scum Gabriel is also present in the season five finale, where Marinette manipulates, gaslights and keeps important information from her abused slave boyfriend. Marinette is presented as being in the right because at least she didn’t literally control him with a magical geas like Gabriel did and gave him the object with which to do so (while notably not telling him what it does). Marinette will do the bare minimum of not taking literal ownership of Adrien and we’re meant to see her as a paragon of goodness for it, while she still has no respect for Adrien’s autonomy and hasn’t had any since the show started.

The way the Sentimonster “reveal” is handled shows this utter lack of respect for Adrien’s autonomy that the writers, and Marinette by extension, have. The reveal is not for Adrien, but for Marinette, just like every other piece of Adrien has been made to be about Marinette. Marinette gets to know and she gets to decide if Adrien gets to know, and she decides “no”. She will manipulate him and lie to him to keep him happy for herself, she will keep important information about him to herself that he might never find out if anything happens to her, because Adrien is hers and no one else’s and she has the right to make that decision because the world revolves around her because the world of Miraculous was created to be her playground. “Adrien” is just a toy on that playground for Marinette to play with as the writers see fit.

Now we’re coming back to Adrien’s role as the sexy, titillating love interest character that I talked about at the start of this essay. If Marinette granting Adrien the bare minimum of freedoms as a slave while manipulating him “for his own good” is meant to be a good thing, why is Adrien even a slave? Well, outside of the writers wanting to add a plot twist that doesn’t come with any messy plot they’d have to write about characters other than Marinette, Adrien being a slave is also meant to be titillating. What really is magical super slavery than very, very off the wall bondage and power play stuff? The idea that Marinette could rob her love interest of his free will with ease but won’t because she cares about him so much is very empowering in two different ways. It gives Marinette all the power in the relationship and it makes her out to be such a good person that even having ultimate power over another person won’t corrupt her. Adding to that, we have Adrien’s people pleaser abuse victim personality, which makes him fawn over the people he loves. If Marinette ever wanted to have control over Adrien, Adrien would give it to her of his own volition, no need for magical super slavery or unbreakable geases.

As I stated earlier, Marinette is meant to be the point of view main character the audience of teen girls projects themselves onto. So, really, Adrien’s slavery and abuse responses are all about that fantasy of having a cute boy you have all the power over but not needing to use it because the boy is so nice and devoted to you anyway. Adrien really is “perfect”, the perfect object of attraction, a being who technically has free will but whose free will you never have to take into account because he’s been designed and trained to value other people’s wants and needs over his own.

Marinette doesn't literally own Adrien within the story, but the writers make it very clear that they think she should. In fact, in all ways except the literal, she already does.

[monpetitchattriste]

Oh my god the way he tries to comfort her 😭

[miraculousdeservesbetter2024]

To be honest, with this series double standards and how it treats Chloe compared to literally everyone else, I’m about 99.9% sure that the lesson that they are trying to purvey (whether if it be about concealment of identity, the mere fact that “not everyone changes” or even “you’re the one who’s solely responsible for your own actions”), only implies to her. Once she’s gone, then none of those lessons no longer exist and you’re not allowed to dislike anyone else, because “no one’s prefect” or “their bad actions are justified”.

[theerurishipper]

Thinking about how Adrien's arc was about finding his self-worth and his independence and learning to let himself be loved unconditionally, and how the narrative undercuts this by proving Gabriel right at every turn.

Thinking about the way Adrien has internalized Gabriel's lessons that love is conditional and dependent on pleasing others, and how Gabriel is proven right, because Adrien's relationship with Ladybug which is meant to be his escape from the expectations others place on him has turned into another part of his life where he has to hide his trauma and his feelings so as to not inconvenience her with them.

Thinking about the way Gabriel's abuse of Adrien hinges on him denying Adrien his freedom and agency to make his own choices under the notion that he is too emotional and incapable of independent thought and controlling him under the guise of "protecting him," and how he is proven to be right, because those who should have been the people he forms relationships with who actually treat him with respect and validate his emotions are also denying him his agency and taking away his ability to choose, thereby making decisions for him, constantly lying to him and hiding things from him, and treating him like he is too emotional to be informed of his own life and should have his emotions be controlled by others, all under the notion that they are "protecting him," but they're doing it out of love so it's okay, thereby validating Gabriel because these were his exact reasonings.

Thinking about how Adrien is dehumanized by Gabriel and treated like a perfect, flawless doll who doesn't get to make choices, who doesn't have needs of his own and only exists to do whatever Gabriel wants of him, and how the narrative goes out to its way to do the same to Adrien as a character, because all he exists for in the show is to be a pretty prize for Marinette, her trophy boyfriend for beating the bad guy, and is not allowed to have any choices or feelings that would get in the way of her own or would inconvenience her in any way.

Thinking about how all Adrien's problems are because of Gabriel, and how the narrative validates Gabriel by making Adrien practically worship him by the end of the season.

Thinking about how the narrative insists that this is all good and fine and wholesome, and how it veers from being just a bad show into straight up abuse apologia, taking large parts of the fandom with it.

Thinking about how Adrien deserved so much better as a character.

[miraculouslbcnreactions]

If you were to write Lila would you keep her being a con artist criminal with multiple identities but hinted at/revealed it earlier than S5 or would you cut that part down of her character entirely ?

It would really depend on how much space I had to fill. Gabriel is not the kind of villain that you can draw out forever. His story needs to have a clearly planned ending right from the start. In fact, I think they drew him out at least a season too long. So, if I also had to fill eight seasons, I could see myself going the Lila route. I'd just make a few changes. Off the top off my head, here's how I'd handle serious villain Lila as opposed to what canon wrote, which is petty school bully Lila who is entirely unbelievable as a serious villain.

First of all, Lila wouldn't be introduced at the end of season one. While her and Gabriel probably need to have some overlap, that's way too soon. In my version, she shows up at the start of season four and she'd be heavily toned down. We'd know that something was off about her, we may even keep the liar thing, but it would be a lot more subtle. Lies like, "Ladybug rescued me" and "I got to go backstage at a Jagged Stone concert" instead of "Ladybug is my bff" and "Jagged Stone wrote a song about me." Her goal would no longer be gaining peons, but instead gaining true close friends who like and trust her. The reason for this is that Lila is replacing Optigami as Mayura's last sentimonster.

See, season three ended with all those identity reveals and most of the revealed identities are in the same class. That's curious, so it makes perfect sense for Nathalie and Gabriel to want someone undercover in Adrien's class, but they can't do it. So Nathalie makes a sentikid of her own, gives her the power of manipulation, and sends her off to try to find Ladybug and/or Chat Noir by whatever means necessary.

This would give a clear reason for Gabriel to trust Lila, a clear reason for Lila to know all about the miraculous, and a clear reason for Lila to hate Ladybug. In this version, I wouldn't do Nathalie's lackluster redemption. Instead, Nathalie stays bad right up to her death. Perhaps her last act is getting the butterfly to her daughter and ordering her to get revenge on Ladybug and Chat Noir should Gabriel fail. After all, Gabriel can't wield more than six miraculous at once, so it makes sense for him to send Nathalie off with at least one of them while he enacts his master plan just in case it fails.

That's just one potential path to take. I also like the idea of having Lila be someone who came to Paris in order to find the miraculous, but who has no ties to the Agrestes. That would require some pretty big changes to her character, though, as I can't see that type of character caring about things like dating Adrien or being a model or all the other crap that has nothing to do with gaining a miraculous and everything to do with popularity and social clout. Lila canonically doesn't know that Gabriel even has a miraculous until the final of season four, so she basically just lucked into finding one instead of doing anything logical to find it because this show has no clue how to actually write smart, clever characters.

In summary, I'm totally fine with complex, master-manipulator Lila, it's just hard to figure out the best way to make her work when we don't know anything about her backstory or motivation. The version proposed above is just the best I can do to fit her into the role canon placed her in. A role I could easily see later seasons flat out ignoring.

[zoe-oneesama]

Chloe had potential for a redemption arch her finding the bee miraculous could've set her on a path where she could have shown more debth a softer side. But they doubled down and i too mourn the loss of potential but chloe as she is in canon doesnt deserve shit

I will concede that the puzzle pieces for a possible Redemption Arc are in the show - abuse mom and over indulgent dad make for a very clear picture of why Chloe is the way she is, and then a huge dynamic shift by introducing super powers into the mix could've been a good starting point for...something. I agree there's potential here.

But what happened in canon wasn't Chloe making changes, it was the people around her changing how they looked at her (as well as the audience). Chloe didn't change herself and the pity she garnered just made her even more entitled when the characters started making more concessions for her, like giving her a Miraculous or throwing her a party or not punishing her for ruining a birthday gift, etc.

I'll agree with people mourning the wasted potential, but I disagree with people who think Chloe's Redemption Arc was active in the show and then ruined, because I don't think it ever started.

[miraculouscriticismshub]

I've noticed something in the MLB fandom which is that a lot of Chloe stans (not all of them) seem to dislike/hate Felix while a lot of Felix stans (not all of them) seem to dislike/hate Chloe which is interesting because Felix and Chloe are really similar and have some things in common.

I've noticed that too. From what I've seen in the fandom , is that you either Stan one or the other or you hate both. From my observations :

People who stan Chloe but dislike Felix seem to mostly be Chloe Stans and some Adrien stans

People who stan Felix but dislike Chloe seem to be mostly Felix stans with some Nathalie/Gabriel/Kagami fans

People who dislike both Characters seem to be mostly Marinette Stans and some Zoe stans as well.

Tbh , I DON'T blame Marinette stans for hating both Felix and Chloe as both have been nasty to Marinette in the past. I also can understand why some Chloe stans resent Felix because they have been told time and time again by the show that Chloe is undeserving of redemption for not repenting for any of her crimes yet in S5 we witnessed Felix pretty much get away with everything he did between Strike Back and Emotion and got to keep his miraculous and join the hero team despite being 10x worse and not apologising once. That will get anyone angry. What does confuse me is some of the Chloe disliking Felix stans that don't admit the double standard. Some Chloe disliking Felix stans do admit the double standards going on but the ones who don't puzzle me? What has Chloe ever done to Felix ? They are quite similar like you said so it's interesting some people dislike Chloe for the same reasons they like Felix for ?

[familyagrestefanblog]

Hi! Been loving reading through all your Miraculous reblogs and the meta you've written - you have some really great stuff on this blog! I was curious if you've ever written/reblogged anything talking about how, from the very start of the show, Miraculous uses Tikki as Marinette's absolver? Marinette "makes mistakes" and "owns up to them" according to Astruc's tweets, but I find myself feeling that the "accountability" she takes is rarely related to what she did wrong in the first place, even when the show tries to tell us otherwise, and it's usually Tikki or a different yes-man, like Alya or Adrien, absolving her of her mistakes, whether the situation had anything to do with them or not. Ikari Gozen is an episode that always comes to mind for this - Marinette is absolutely terrible to Kagami, sabotaging her, badmouthing her, and going through her phone. Marinette never expresses remorse to anyone but Tikki, but Tikki absolved her so the narrative never addresses the issue again. Tikki tells her "it's never too late to make things right" and Marinette invites Kagami out for juice without ever taking accountability for her previous actions. And Kagami just GOES with it, even stating that SHE was wrong about Marinette and that she understand why Adrien values her. I I will admit, I don't really like Marinette as a character, because I find her consistent self-absorption, and the narrative's endorsement of it, to be really maddening, but I'm pretty new to the fandom, and the subreddit isn't a great place to find thoughtful analysis, so I'm looking for perspectives here! Thank you for your time!

Hey, thank you so much for your kind words! <3 sorry for taking so long. I've had my ask box deactivated for several years now and i completely forgot about me already having started replying in my drafts. 😭👏

__

No, I don't think I've ever written or reblogged something about Marinette's dynamic with Tikki, but I do have thought about it. For me, their dynamic is just lacking much... idk, substance? I remember reading from Marinette stans that they think Marinette and Tikki have a much deeper bond than Adrien and Plagg which is something I simply cant understand at all. Plagg is the only person Adrien actually truly HAS in all the neglect and bad treatment he's stuck in from all sides. Plagg takes on so many roles for his kid and has grown so much because Adrien needed it.

The thing is, Tikki and Marinette's dynamic is very different so I'm just not able to properly read them because I personally would need a Plagg in my life and that's perfectly fine. That's why I dont talk about them.

But about your point now:

I definitely agree that Tikki is one of the main indicators about what is wrong about the way Marinette is written as protagonist, especially since the retooling in season 4. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Tikki also used to have a bigger presence in the how which was by now mostly made redundant by Alya always being with Marinette and in season 4 Marinette (unnecessarily and dangerously) keeping all the Kwamis outside the box all times so they too stole screen time from Tikki.

So Tikki lost alot of her personality. I believe to remember her also being more energetic and excited in the earlier seasons, showing off more to her character, which would by now make her yet another character the show sucked alot of their life out of so they aren't in the way for Marinette. Tikki seems alot more down these days, that I definitely noticed.

Marinette has Alya now, if that makes Tikki sad because she isn't relying on her the way she did before then Tikki has to deal with it quietly and not bother Marinette (seriously, Tikki reminds me ALOT of Adrien and they're both treated badly in the narrative for Marinette’s sake :/)

And this reduced characterization makes it by now very noticeable imo that Tikki herself as a Kwami often doesn't really know what is going on because she lacks experience with alot of things. I wholeheartedly agree that Tikki is one of Marinette's strongest and most damaging enablers because Tikki is because of it not actually allowed to be challenged in her dynamic with Marinette the way Plagg is with Adrien. Where Plagg is allowed to grow, Tikki is kept the same because Marinette is not allowed to be really pushed back on.

The show has to my memory always been quite open about Tikki not being familiar with alot of things so Marinette can explain things to her. The problem comes, as you say, from the show then weirdly still acting like Tikki saying some random vaguely positive thing about whatever Marinette just did.. suddenly meaning it doesn't need to be taken care of anymore?

It's the same thing as the show has Adrichat, Alya or Luka do. Most of what the narrative and Marinette as the main character want to hear at this point is being told positive things whenever something went wrong. If that positive thing actually holds any water the way it was executed is beyond irrelevant which reflects incredibly badly especially on Marinette because she is the main beneficiary.

Again, remember Cat Charming in "Kuro Neko". From Marinette's perspective he should have no valid opinion on the Ladynoir conflict AT ALL because he just arrived half an hour ago and never even met Chat Noir in her eyes. But still, Marinette made him the deciding voice of the Ladynoir conflict, absolving her of all blame to entirely put it on Chat Noir, because Cat Charming validated her and said positive things about her mistakes so she doesn't have to really think about them as mistakes anymore if she wishes to not have been in the wrong.

Which for the show somehow equals that she isn't and they aren't real mistakes anymore she should genuinely work on (and therefore still hasn't really beyond surface level)?

Who tf cares if this is literally not how it works and how badly it reflects on Marinette as a character that any random dipshit can walk up to her, validate her, and she'll just... GO with it (making Marinette ironically the most endangered person regarding Cerise now because that girl has plenty of identities and Marinette doesn't give a damn who's validating her as long as she's validated by a person not explicitly telling her they're evil)

Where was I? Ah, Tikki!

Tikki is at the end of the day yet another character who's kindness is kinda weaponized by now by Marinette's narrative.

We've reached a point where one kinda has to say that Marinette shouldn't be told optimistically positive things anymore because not rarely will these words just be used to sweep Marinette's biggest flaws under the rug when it really wouldn't have hurt anyone to simply cover the damn conflict at hand.

As you said, there are writing rules, but I think they were "Marinette has to make a mistake every episode" and "Marinette has to learn something every episode". And as you correctly said, these two things often don't necessarily go hand in hand. To the point where the thing she learns is making the initial mistake even worse (I wanted to look for a more precise example, but at this point it's literally all of Ladynoir)

Which of course absolves her of having to properly take her blame or accountability in ot of cases, too. If I were to approach it in bad faith, I would say that this is exactly the reason why the writing rules don't specify that the lesson learned needs to be about the mistake she made... and that's exactly what I'm saying. Bad faith sounds rather realistic to me.

I remember someone having had made a post where they explained that Marinette as protagonist is written like a villain or antagonist, and the more I look at all the aspects of this show the more does that take check out.

__

(damn, I am out of PRACTICE in responding to asks! I hope I didn't talk right past the point you wanted to hear in my response. If I did, please clarity with another ask, I'm not sensitive to that)

[ninadove]

Obsessed with the Representation timeline, because one of two things must have happened:

Either Kagami was whisked away to London days/weeks before Adrien, and none of her friends noticed until it affected the love square;

Or she was sent there at the same time Adrien was, and within 15 minutes of arriving escaped through her bedroom window to go on a date with her problem child boyfriend.

Either way, Gabriel and Tomoe are so fucking stupid.

[anna-scribbles]

“Look who finally showed up.” Ladybug’s voice was the quiet kind of rage, an animal she was just barely keeping penned up. “I was starting to wonder.” She looked at him like he was a dead thing.

good morning and happy call it even chapter 6 day to me and @sha-nwa and all those who celebrate<3