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mai-melancholia · 6 months

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Second Entry Bonus: Actionable Strategization Towards Improving Mental Health and Interpersonal Relationships with professor storm

I don't want to end up you know for example

the boundary I made about you not saying something akin to "we've talked about this already"

it upsets me

Is that a fair boundary

Compare that to if I were to say "If you ever say something like that again, I'm going to shut down and end the discussion"

define "fair boundary"

My god I'm not sure how to explain this so forgive the lengthy one

but it's something that I think needs to be respected in order to be friends with the person that has a consequence that doesn't completely shut them down/push them out of their life

okay by definition, it's pretty easy to objectively call that a fair boundary, no? me not saying [we've talked about this already] does not completely shut me down (obviously). [ If you ever say something like that again, I'm going to shut down and end the discussion] does not change the fairness of the boundary with respect to its consequences, so it continues to fit that definition

does the level of firmness on a boundary affect its fairness? if so then this becomes more subjective

consider a more general, more holistic perspective on fairness

it's more appropriately defined as the ratio between the effort of respecting the boundary and the benefit of having the boundary respected

in a case like this where the boundary is monodirectional so to speak, the effort is from one party and the benefit is to the other party

if you ever took a business and marketing elective, you will recognize that we are rapidly converging towards the holy grail of decision making

the cost/benefit analysis

contemplate this helpful graphic

Me: What the actual fuck

Storm: "reasonable" here is a less controversial substitute for "fair"

the cost here is the cost of implementation: i.e. how much work it is to respect a given boundary to the requested degree

likewise the benefit is how much you benefit from that respect - in another sense, it is an inverse cost of having the boundary violated

this boundary (do not say "we've talked about this before") has a very low cost, because it takes me rather little effort to simply not say this

presumably it has a fairly medium to high benefit, because violating it would upset you, and not being upset is beneficial

Me: 'L_'Okay... just to make sure I'm understanding this graph correctly.... I would like some examples.

way ahead of you

Me: What about J's boundary with me

because I have a feeling it's on the more reasonable side

Storm: Yeah, I still don't know what that was

Me: Oh

Do not talk to him about my feelings towards him or else we cannot be friends

Storm: I mean in a vacuum that is pretty reasonable, but there are a lot of factors that can influence cost

for example, maybe I have a religious proscription against touching soda (he's referring to one of the examples on the graph. It's on the lower left quadrant of the graph)

that would move that bottom left dot a lot higher

Me: Let's say a factor would be my unresolved feelings then and I already feel distant with the way things are

Storm: sure but more importantly, how difficult is it for you to refrain from talking about your feelings in that case

Me: It's high cost

Storm: that much is pretty clear from context

so this is where fairness comes back into play because fairness as a concept cares a lot more about the individual

what is or isn't reasonable is much easier to pass neutral judgment o

but irrespective of reasonability, is it fair to you for someone to demand you restrict yourself in a fashion that is very difficult to uphold? (i.e. not talking about your feelings)

Me: Well... no it's not

But I unfortunately agreed to it

That brings me to the next question: can boundaries be negotiated

Storm: everything can be negotiated

Me: even boundaries?

Storm: go to more night markets

Me: I've always thought it was disrespectful to negotiate boundaries... or even talk about them.

[REDACTED INFORMATION HERE]

Storm: if you ain't haggling you ain't winning

anyway

everything CAN be negotiated

not everything SHOULD be negotiated

Me: Oh ok

Should I then

Storm: That's the million dollar question

we're taking a very simplistic view of boundaries here because we're only analyzing one aspect of the dynamic

for example, going back to this question (If you ever say something like that again, I'm going to shut down and end the discussion)

It's the same boundary either way, the only difference is framing (and the addition of an explicit ultimatum)

right? so on a technical basis, the fairness of the boundary is the same

but trivially it's a very different situation

the short answer here is that relationships are complicated and people react in complex ways to different types of interactions

The very acts of speaking about, establishing, violating, testing, or negotiating boundaries have consequences unto themselves

not to belabor this example, but for illustrative purposes

If you had said to me "if you ever say something like that again, I'm going to shut down and end the discussion", it would be a very different dynamic

most obviously, it implies a presumption that I can or will violate your boundary, which in turn implies that you already have a negative view of my character

simply making the request instead of attaching a consequence leaves it up to me to fulfill my end, and therefore indicates a willingness to simply assume that I will respect the boundary

Me: Ah--

this phrase(most obviously, it implies a presumption that I can or will violate your boundary, which in turn implies that you already have a negative view of my character)

It sorta light bulb'd me

but there's the thing right. o o Do we assume that if we cross the boundary, they're gonna be upsetti?

Storm: I mean

Me: because wouldn't that be a consequence?

Storm: generally speaking, you don't set a boundary if you're okay with it being crossed, so yes

but the framing still matters

Me: Ah okay... hm.

Yeah tone matters

Storm: attaching an explicit ultimatum of "I'm going to shut down and end the discussion" is pretty severe, right

on one hand, maybe that's a good thing, because it makes it clear this is something serious, and not to be teased or tested

Me: ;;; just like how if I do it again, he'll just say we ain't friends...

Storm: on the other hand, it establishes that you aren't willing to take any leeway on this, and that your reaction will be draconic even if the trespass is unintentional

Me: Ugh.... yeah.

It sure as hell was fucking draconic...

you know I've had people terminate years-long friendships with me over a single conversation, and I've had people work with me to resolve accidental hurts that could have canned a 20 year marriage

sometimes it's not about the boundary itself at all, it's about the implications surrounding it

Me: ;;; elaborate?

let's refer to our chart and examine this one

trivially, any rational human being ought to be able to comply with this request

thus the low cost

now I listed it under high benefit, but reasonably it's not actually that high, because if I'm going to laugh at you for 110 seconds it's probably not going to break your heart if I add another 30 on there

however

If you've asked me to do this, and I pointedly choose to laugh for a solid 4 minutes next time, it sends a very clear message about consciously and deliberately violating your boundary

it's not about the laughing at that point, it's about the disrespect

now I'm starting to understand why he thinks I was deliberately disrespecting him

Storm: with very little insight into this situation I can only speculate from my armchair, but certainly I can imagine someone interpreting you as simply not caring about their boundary, especially if they are not aware of how difficult it is for you to do so

It also helps you know my psychological profile too so = =;

right, so I have a certain level of awareness about your impulsivity and rationality (or lack thereof)

"someone who lacks that awareness might assign more intention to your actions than actually exists"

(but it's true)

yeah. I kinda figured. I'm also trying to practice empathy and understanding but when you explain it like that, yeah I can see why he would think I'm disrespecting him (here's the part where I try not to cry or beat myself up)

if you gotta cry you gotta cry but this is a fine example of stuff just happening sometimes

okay well here's the part where I try to not beat myself up

yeah let's focus on that

It's sorta working?

now I would be remiss not to also point out that it's entirely possible he was aware that you weren't being intentionally disrespectful, and in fact interpreted your behavior accurately

That is in fact possible I do remember him mentioning his mental health like how important it is

yeah, sometimes a boundary is simply important enough that violating it even accidentally, unintentionally, or out of emotion is still unacceptable serious triggers are like that

Mhm but I think it became extremely serious when he said that I disrespected his efforts in trying to rebuild the trust with me So. I'm not… sure

yeah as it turns out you aren't a mind reader

oop

the goal here is not to necessarily understanding precisely what happened and how it's simply to develop a better understanding of these general principles

no I understand. There are reasons why he might have said it like that but I don't know for sure why I just know I can see why it's considered disrespectful

one step at a time

#boundary #mental #meme god #water bear #self care

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