#me when cain and abel from the bible

[clefablepb]

drew this months ago, dunno why i never posted it

fanart for @its-just-fern 's only finn AU :D

jake's the one asking where fern is btw

[loving-family-poll]

2nd Ultimate Incest Tournament - Round 1

Propaganda under the cut:

Cain/Abel:

the og brotherssss. invented murder.

Brothers inexorably tied together… brothers alone in a field, no witnesses but god… jealousy violence guilt sin… you get it.

Blueprint for violent older sibling & younger sibling relationships. Our beloved Cain complex comes from this story and where would we be without it? These two are the huge inspirations for both incestuous and non incestuous poetry, especially between brothers. Nothing represents the self destructiveness of incest more than these guys. Also I know they frotted in those fields, Eve told me.

Alicent/Otto:

They might be father and daughter but they’re basically married

Otto thinks Alicent looks so much like his beloved dead wife, he instructs her to put on one of said dead wife's dresses before sending her to "comfort" (= hopefully seduce for the family's political gain) a man who could literally be her father because he has a daughter her own age. After that, he spends years manipulating her like a puppet while acting like some sort of surrogate husband (+ father figure to her children) when her actual husband is too sick to play his role. Also, the one time Alicent loses her shit and attacks someone in a blind rage, he thinks that's hot… er, I mean, admirable and a sign she's finally becoming as ruthless as him, of course.

Can I say he has an Agamemnon complex. Am I allowed to say that. He lives in a deeply patriarchal society where everyone's ambition is to have a son. Not him tho he doesn't really care for his male children the way he cares about her. In his own fucked up way. He doesn't comfort her or even attempt to, but instead he sees that she marries a king and becomes mother of kings and she's an extension of him and his power and she later treats her son how he treated her and she's also an extension of her dead mother. Also when her grandson aka his great grandson died he refered to him as their grandson

[irrealisms]

diptych || a c!crimeboys web weave

[sources and IDs under cut]

The first collage is a collection of 14 images.

Image 1: A human hands a raccoon a gun. It is the same image CC!Wilbur sent CC!Tommy with the caption "Me passing the dirty crime boy title to you."

Image 2: Question 4 of 15 Do you love your brother? Answers, please choose 1

Image 3: WILBUR: This isn't just a silly river delta to me anymore, it's got a name, it's got a story, it's— it's L’Manberg, and it's … to me it's, it's you.

Image 4: A painting of Cain and Abel. Cain holds a club in one hand and Abel's wrist in the other as they walk forward. While it is in the background and mostly covered by the other images, their faces and hands are visible.

Image 5: Question 5 of 15 Liar. You feel guilty, don't you? Answers, please choose 1

Image 6: A screenshot from The Fall by SAD-ist. Wilbur has his hand on Tommy's shoulder and is leaning forward to speak to him. Tommy looks anxious.

Image 7: "Am I my brother's keeper?"

Image 8: A piece of paper pinned to the wall, reading "Someone is looking up to you. Don't let that person down." In the context of the collage, it is pinned onto Wilbur's sleeve/upper arm from the SAD-ist screenshot.

Image 9: Question 6 of 15 But you're the one that left him. Answers, please choose 1 [check mark next to the selected answer] I wanted to and I wanted it to hurt him so he could let go of me.

Image 10: WILBUR: I’m glad, Tommy! You know what, I’m glad! Because me and you were never good for that server. We just weren’t!

Image 11: When I close my eyes I'm climbing in the dark Trying not to fall apart Sometimes I get so high Falling is the only out I see And I don't wanna take you down with me

Image 12: a softer world comic. the text reads "At my worst, I worry you'll realize/you deserve better./At my best, I worry you won't."

Image 13: Question 7 of 15 Do you think your brother loves you? Answers, please choose 1

Image 14: WILBUR: Tommy, come over here, please, I— Tommy, I was scared I wouldn’t see you again if you didn’t forgive me. And I didn’t want to not see you again.

The second image is a collage of 11 images.

Image 1: WILBUR: You love it, don’t you, Tommy? You love… L’Manberg…

Image 2: a softer sea comic. the text reads "You're my brother and I love you./That's it./No punchline."

Image 3: A painting of two men standing next to each other. they look similar. the one on the right puts his hand flat above both of their heads, sheltering them; the one on the left has his hand up to touch the hand of the one on the right. the painting is titled My Brother's Keeper.

Image 4: I will stand in the dark for you I will hold you back by force I will stand here right outside your door I won’t see you disgraced I will protect your name and your heart Because I miss my friend

Image 5: A screenshot from Final Waltz by SAD-ist. Wilbur has his hand on Tommy's shoulder. Tommy looks up at him.

Image 6: In essence, the entire Bible is written as an affirmative response to this question.

Image 7: TOMMY: I believe that everyone’s got a little bit of good in them. And I know that Wilbur had good in him. Alright?

Image 8: This is no garden. This is my brother and I need a shovel to love him.

Image 9: A collage of an open book with forests, butterflies, etc. the text reads: i care for you still and i will forever.

Image 10: A painting of two young boys wading in the ocean and holding hands. The smaller one has spiderman swim trunks.

Image 11: TOMMY: It’s not about chances, Foolish. It’s about making sure you don’t give up on the people you care about.

[archivedblog16]

No same Anon about Lilith and Eve.

I agree that at this point, I don't expect anything from Vivzie's female characters. I know I'm going to be disappointed, I'll just take what I like and rewrite them.

Now, the fact that Anon threw out is wrong: Lilith does not belong to the Bible. It belongs to Jewish folklore (Torah) but more as a legend since its origin is Mesopotamian.

Thanks to a medieval satirical text, Lilith was considered the first woman and wife of Adam.

Of course, the second fact that I throw is true: Lilith in her myths is far from the feminist figure with which the image of Lilith is popular. Unlike "Lilith who does not let herself be bent" in the original myths, she is a demonic being who kidnaps babies and rapes men. She does this together with Naamah, Agrat bat Mahlat and Eisheth Zenunim (this is more from the Zohar).

The idea of Lilith as an "empowered figure" is thanks to the creator of Wicca, Gerald Gardner. A very controversial subject, very controversial. I will not go into the debate if the Wiccans are considered a kind of pagans or just imitators of paganism who want to feel special because of the esoteric of the whole thing, but it is due to them that the figure of Lilith was bleached to look like this "rebel" being. And recent popular culture pushed that narrative further.

The same example is HH: Lucifer and Lilith are in love, Adam is evil from minute 1. Lilith did not bow to Heaven and Adam, she rebelled with her love Lucifer and now she is the queen of Hell.

When in reality several myths tell us that the one who did not overcome her ex was Lilith:

In one version we are told that Lilith transforms into Eve and has relations with Adam.

In another we are told that one night she enters Eden and rapes him.

In another we are told that, after Cain and Abel, Adam and Eve separate for 140 years due to the horror of the affair. In this myth there are 2 versions: again, Lilith has relations without Adam's consent (here Naamah, Agrath and Eishet are included). And the other is much calmer where Adam accepts to be with Lilith during those years.

What is made clear is that in all versions they have descendants: the lilims, the succubi, some vampiric beings, and sometimes it is even said that Asmodeus is the son of these two.

(In other versions, Asmodeus is the son of a mortal and Naamah, in other versions he is simply the husband of Lilith).

So for the first time, if Vivziepop puts Lilith as an evil being, a bad mother and so on... well, she would be the only character that is close to the original source.

And don't get me wrong, I'm not against reinvention or looking for a different route to the established (I have Adam x Lilith as the endgame in my rewrite and of course I've had to tweak some things) but Vivzie is criminal to the point that I'd rather she didn't touch Lilith and Eve because they're going to be at the mercy of favoring Lucifer. Do I want to be wrong? Yes, I want the show to tell me "You know what? Actually the conflict of these two doesn't revolve around Lucifer or Adam, neither are they going to become lesbians, nor are they going to have that kind of "I'm better than you because..." fight; no, their conflict is going to make Lilith feel guilty because she realized that she ruined two people's lives by imposing herself before what she thought was right, becoming the very thing that she complained about Adam and Heaven. And that Eve's conflict is that for a long time she felt this complex of being the replacement, that she should imitate Lilith because she was "the original, what a woman should be" as well as sticking to what "a wife should be", even putting that Adam let her be her own person because he was worried about how bad Eve was getting because of her own existential crisis. He as Lilith can ask Eve for forgiveness, but Eve cannot accept it. Thank you for saying so, but Lilith and Lucifer's actions doomed many and in horrible ways."

Am I going to get it? No, but I have accepted that I will live with it. There will always be a fanfic, a video, a new series, something, that really wants to explore all these characters beyond the original versions or the cheap tropes surrounding them.

Sorry for the big text, I needed to get it out of my system.

Yeah, I don’t blame anyone for having super low expectations regarding the Hazbin Hotel women especially with Lilith and Eve. Since in Helluva Boss, the women are demonized, one-note, and super side-lined. The women in Hazbin Hotel so far are mediocre anyway.

You good, Anon. No need to apologize and thanks for the clarification regarding Lilith. The version you mentioned about Lilith transforms into Eve is interesting because Vivziepop is planning some big plot twist with Lilith, Eve, Rosie, and Roo. Something about one being the other.

[fruityyamenrunner]

chadwick points to the late sixties and early seventies as the period when orthodox english doctrine turned from "man as fallen angel" to "man as rising ape", showing an extinction burst of arguments against the latter from divines at the beginning of this period

it strikes me that gaianism is a more emotionally appealing stance in the "fallen angel" viewpoint, where civilization is pristine, as proven by manie Difcourfes of many Nations, including the Bible, where the second sin in the world is civilised Cain slaying savage Abel. God keeps Cain around as a controlled opposition, and he is really the first Gaian. The gaian who excretes his byssus onto the ground or onto a painting is protected by the Mark of Cain. Everyone else who works for a living is a Sethite.

For a long time I could not keep straight in my head what the occupations of the two brothers were -- Cain was the slayer and Abel the slain, of course, and the dispute started because Abel's sacrifice delighted the LORD and Cain's did not, but the exact polarity would not stick in my mind As a moderate Blue, I suppose it is natural to me that the wanton brother should be the savage, because isn't there supposed to be some theme of original vegetarianism (and I still do not know what Abel was doing with his flocks given that meat was not made lawful until Noah, but he was evidently, because a priest, a butcher) and in the Blue mythology the second crime hidden at the heart of the world (the first crime being particular existence) is godfather munkeh and his strange environment of evolutionary adaptiveness. But this isn't what the Bible says, and it isn't what the gaians say.

"fallen angel" is dying hard, even among pagans, who are long used to imagining that the pristine civilization is under the waves, subducted into the mantle, on another planet, or supporting the computer that we live in. you will notice gaians posture against these appropriately.

[sobeksewerrat]

(Warning: barely coherent religious rambling ahead)

so. I'm not sure how accurate this but I found a translation of some bible verse while I was trying to research some Cain and Abel lore to exploit in my hazbin fanfics and to see how much it differs from the Islamic version and well. It got out of hand.(added a cut because thsi post got wayyyy too long)

Later she gave birth to his brother Abel. Now Abel kept flocks, and Cain worked the soil. In the course of time Cain brought some of the fruits of the soil as an offering to the Lord. And Abel also brought an offering—fat portions from some of the firstborn of his flock. The Lord looked with favor on Abel and his offering, but on Cain and his offering he did not look with favor. So Cain was very angry, and his face was downcast. Then the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.” Now Cain said to his brother Abel, “Let’s go out to the field.” While they were in the field, Cain attacked his brother Abel and killed him.

 Then the Lord said to Cain, “Where is your brother Abel?”

“I don’t know,” he replied. “Am I my brother’s keeper?” The Lord said, “What have you done? Listen! Your brother’s blood cries out to me from the ground. Now you are under a curse and driven from the ground, which opened its mouth to receive your brother’s blood from your hand. When you work the ground, it will no longer yield its crops for you. You will be a restless wanderer on the earth.” Cain said to the Lord, “My punishment is more than I can bear. Today you are driving me from the land, and I will be hidden from your presence; I will be a restless wanderer on the earth, and whoever finds me will kill me.” But the Lord said to him, “Not so ; anyone who kills Cain will suffer vengeance seven times over.” Then the Lord put a mark on Cain so that no one who found him would kill him. So Cain went out from the Lord’s presence and lived in the land of Nod, east of Eden.

(I think this is from Genesis or something?? Idk how the Bible works. Also I lost the website where I got the translation from <\3 if its inaccurate in any way tell me also there was some other stuff but they're irrelevant to this.)

This is??? So different from the Islamic version?? Like damn man.

Cain's utter apathy when asked about Abel is so different from Qabil (Islamic cain) when he murdered Habil (Islamic abel).

And the implication that he just...lead Abel away and killed him without Abel knowing about his intentions is also very different from the Islamic version like how do people think Islam and Christianity are the same.

Like. Here are some verses that I've been using as reference for my AUs from the Qur'an (I can't find the old translation I used. And I would also like to clarify that the translation I'm gonna use is a bit weird at times like all other translations and that's generally because English is so different from Arabic and bunch of Arabic words simply do not exist in english).

(Translation from here , words in brackets aren't in the verse but taken for the sake of translation )

Relate to them in truth [O Prophet] the story of Adam’s two sons—how each offered a sacrifice: one’s offering was accepted while the other’s was not, so he threatened [his brother], “I will kill you!” His brother replied, “Allah only accepts [the offering] of the sincerely devout. If you raise your hand to kill me, I will not raise mine to kill you, because I fear Allah—the Lord of all worlds. I want to let you bear your sin against me along with your other sins, then you will be one of those destined to the Fire. And that is the reward of the wrongdoers.” Still, the other convinced himself to kill his own brother, so he killed him—becoming a loser. Then Allah sent a crow digging [a grave] in the ground [for a dead crow], in order to show him how to bury the corpse of his brother. He cried, “Alas! Have I [even] failed to be like this crow and bury the corpse of my brother?” So he became regretful.

And that's it. That's basically the first and last mention of them. I'd like to clarify some points though, being that I'm both a practising Muslim (despite my...*gestures vaguely at my blog* everything) and a native Arabic speaker (who perhaps isn't the greatest at formal/qur'anic Arabic but still okay)

Yes. Their names were never once mentioned in the Qur'an. Not sure where the names Qabil and Habil came from but my guess is that they were taken from the Tanakh or Torah or from a hadith like Hawa'a (islamic Eve, Adam was the only one whose name was outrightly mentioned). I still need to do more research about that part but I'll be using these names since they are widely accepted and to avoid confusion with their Christian counterparts. Same applied to God and Allah (I'll try to keep the part about them brief, however).

I have not memorised nor learned anything about Surat Al Ma'ida yet (I'm still at Surat Muhammad/Al Qital LMFAO I am very far behind) so there *might* be some context I'm missing somewhere else but this is all I could find. Also, Islam is less concerned with its stories than Christianity, they're important but not as detailed or vital. Just to be completely transparent.

[If you raise your hand to kill me] the exact word (بسطت) doesn't really mean "raise" it's more "spread" or "extend" but I guess it gets the point across. Again. I'm just doing this for the sake of transparency.

[the Lord of all worlds] thats...that's not what (عالمين) means as far as I'm aware but I'm not sure I can translate it either

[the Fire] The word used (النار) does technically mean the fire, but it's just an alternate name for Jahannam/Hell.

[wrongdoers] is too weak of a word of (الظالمين). Again, no direct English equivalent I'm aware of but the closest I can describe it as is someone who commits injustice against others and has no mercy but like. Very strongly horrible (it's a strong adjective that can't be used lightly okay? That's the point)

[Still, the other convinced himself to kill his own brother,] the...the actual meaning is a bit more complicated. It has to do with the Islamic idea of both people's inner self and Jinn compelling them to sin (to some degree, its complicated? the whole point is that we're responsible for our own sins not the shayateen or Iblis or our forefathers or whatever) so the proper/more accurate phrasing would be "his self [and conscience] permitted him his brother's murder and so he murdered him,"

also [loser] is, again, the closest English word but very very weak, especially in this context. I am not sure I can find a better equivalent though. And properly it should be "and he became one of the losers" since the meaning conveys that he joined the group of sinners who'll be punished in the afterlife.

["Alas! Have I [even] failed to be like this crow and bury the corpse of my brother?”] Okay this is...probably the worst translation here. (ياويلتي) doesn't mean "alas"...not at all. Its not even close. It, again, has no English equivalent but it's a cry when a person is in distress basically saying that they're in a horrible situation or they've failed horrendously. Still not a good descriptor but oh welp. And ( أعجزت) doesn't mean failed. Not fully. It kinda means that you're stuck at a standstill and are powerless to do anything, Qabil is basically saying that the crow humbled him by being more knowledgeable and capable than him (from my understanding). And he doesn't say corpse. This time i legit cannot find any close meaning to the word he uses other than the one from the old translation I used- "disgrace".

[So he became regretful.] *sigh* "and he became of the regretful" plural. The regretful are a group. Same meaning as "the losers" but specifically sinners who regret their decision.

So yeah I think I've cleared most of it up to the best of my ability. Now, my interpretation of the verses and the obvious differences (I won't be using any tafsir. Just my understanding. I trust scholars about as much as I trust flat earthers with information on most things, especially scholars on a random website and not a somewhat trusted source like Al Azhar (which I also have problems with(more specifically the transphobia and intersexism(and the homophobia))).

(And I don't think that will affect anything from the religious standpoint because in the end the moral is the same: murder is a sin. Obviously.)

Now, first off, Habil was very aware of Qabil's intentions, and Qabil didn't hide them from him- unlike the biblical version from what I understand.

That's...honestly fascinating to me. I feel, from my pov, Cain was very much intending to kill. This was intentional and plotted murder- he led Abel into the fields then just killed him.

Qabil didn't seem to have been plotting it beforehand. It's somewhat unclear how much time had passed, but to me it reads like it happened immediately after his offering was rejected.

It genuinely seems like an impulsive decision born from rage, rather than conscious, calculated one (this is supported by his blatant regret later).

And Habil was unnaturally calm. Of course, I can't discern tone from a religious text, but it does seem that way. It's a bit weird, honestly, he essentially tells Qabil point blank and clearly "I'm not going to fight back if you try to kill me. In the end, you'll be the one who'll suffer for this,"

Which is...I have complicated feelings about that honestly. Habil seemed confident that he'll be avenged in the afterlife (which. Of course he was he very much knew Allah existed). He doesn't dissuade Qabil at all, he just lays out the consequences that will befall him and lets him have the choice.

It's fascinating?? At first I interpreted this as him trying to do this for Qabil's sake because ehe cared about him, but now I'm not sure what he was going for. And the part about Qabil's other sins raises more questions. What else had he done?

I wonder if Habil's little speech only served to anger Qabil further. Like. I imagine his inner monologue going something like:

How dare he? How dare he act superior to me? How dare he act like he's better than me again?

And so his conscience left him and he killed Habil in cold blood.

In the biblical version, God is the one who warns him, if I'm understanding the text correctly. Which is a whole can of worms I will get to later.

Again, Cain's response to murdering his brother vs Qabil's response is fascinating. Qabil is definitely more sympathetic, in my opinion.

Cain lies to God directly, which is- insane?? He doesn't regret what happened to Abel. He says he isn't responsible for him. He doesn't care that he murdered him in cold blood. He doesn't seem in the slightest bit affected by what he'd done.

After which, God punishes him to wander the earth and curses him so that his crops will never yield anything. And Cain says it's more than he can bear, and that some one will kill him eventually. So then God marks him and says that anybody who tries to kill him will- idk suffer seven times more than whatever they wanted to do to Cain?? I don't fully get this part.

Then Cain just fucking leaves and fucks his wife I guess (which...I did not know he had one??). Which is...wow. the difference is insane to me.

Qabil is instantly regretful, how I see it. He doesn't know how to hide his brother's corpse, doesn't know what to do after.

Then a part that utterly fascinates me and deserves its own essay if I'm being honest.

Allah sends him a crow to show him how to hide Habil's body.

Now, of course, they will still punish Qabil in the afterlife but I'm just...fuck I can't formulate my thoughts properly into words. I need to ruminate about this for like an hour to properly get anything coherent written down.

For now, let's go back to Qabil.

Qabil essentially wallows in pity and regret. He is ashamed that a mere crow knew to handle a body while he, a human, could only stare helpless at what became of his brother at his hands.

And it is stated, outright, that he regrets it. He regrets killing Habil, he regrets thinking about it in the first place, he regrets everything. Which, again, adds to my point about Habil's murder being a spur of the moment thing, unlike Abel's.

Now, one could interpret him being regretful because he'll suffer consequences for this, but I personally see it as genuine guilt.

It seems more humanising to me. Qabil, in the end, still cared about his brother. He made an impulsive decision fuelled by his wounded pride, his jealousy and rage, then he paid the consequences by losing a family member he cared about. From a religious standpoint, I feel like that's better when teaching people why Qabil was wrong, why letting fury and envy blind us is wrong. But I digress.

I've already made a post about this, and I still stand by it, we should see religious figures as humans if we ever wish to learn anything from them.

The first murder was committed by a person in a moment of anger, not a calculating, vengeful person. Not that I don't think Cain is interesting, no, I feel like his resentment for Abel and utter apathy towards his death is fascinating as well, but I'm just mote familiar with Qabil and I typically prefer tragic siblings if we ignore the religious parts of this and treat them as stories.

Now the elephant in the room, God talking to Cain directly and making him immortal if I understand correctly??

Uh, okay, so- In Islam, nobody (on Earth, that is) has ever spoken to Allah directly except Prophet Mousa (our equivalent of Moses).

There is a bit of a grey area with Adam and Hawa'a when they were in Al Janna (Eden isn't a thing in Islam btw they just lived in Heaven lol) and Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) when he met Allah on Al Mi'raaj, but that is an entirely different discussion.

God just talks to Cain like it's nothing? Unless I'm missing some crucial context here. It just boggles my mind- I don't think I can properly explain anything.

Cain's punishment is what puzzles me the most.

Qabil's fate is left unclear, but we can all make an educated guess and say it probably wasn't good. Though one thing is for certain; he's definitely not immortal and certainly dead by now (if you believe he existed like I do).

The thing about Cain's implied immortality that truly tickles my brain is how it so blatantly contradicts a fundamental fact in Islam- one that I guess doesn't exist in Christianity judging by this.

No living organism will ever live forever. Not plants, not animals, not humans- hell, not even the Jinn.

The only exception to this is Iblis/Shaytan (our equivalent of Lucifer- but also not really. It deserves its own essay as well), but even then he'll die before Yawm Al Qiyamah.

There is a bit of discussion to be had regarding the Mala'ika and also whether or not they even count in this but again- that's an entirely different rabbithole.

God making Cain unkillable basically gives me brainworms. I do not understand why they did that. Can any Christian please explain?

The crop part is understandable since he was a farmer (put a pin in that) and clearly he took pride in it considering his reaction to his offering not being accepted, but like-?? I'm genuinely confused I'm not trying to be mean I swear.

...

Okay so I think I lost the plot in the middle and forgot why I was writing this to begin with and started babbling about religion for no reason.This was supposed to be about my hazbin hotel AUs. What the fuck.

Also before anybody says anything: Yes, I am Muslim. Yes, I'm a Hellaverse fan in case my blog theme and icon haven't made that clear. No, I don't like nor support Vivziepop. No, I'm not sure if this blasphemy or not.

Now uh imma be real I don't think any of that fits into his essay at this point and I'm tired so I'll save it for later sorry for subjecting yall to my religious babbling without any proper payoff when it comes to fandom stuff <\3

(tagging @themightymoose @an-theduckin cos yall wanted to see this)

[sillysnack]

word vomit about kusuo and kusuke and another pair of iconic siblings in media (the bible)

girl that cant stop associating kusuke and kusuo with cain and abel from the bible. particularly the brother murders his brother part; of course, kusuke does not murder kusuo but. like. you know. kitty tank arc. lol. when he flew nenkai to london but thats a less extreme example...

because of this post i am reading analyses on the bible. i'll reference this one a lot lol

perhaps this one too

god favoring abel's offering more... cain murdering abel out of jealousy... then he is cursed. 1) he would no longer able to grow crops on his land and 2) he will live his life as a wanderer

oh also.

* not scripture. merely a break down.

that part of reminded me of when someone praised kusuke, saying that he helped get their paper to a grade of 98, declared him even a "genius of science" (or something along those lines!!). kusuke responds, saying that he is no genius. the real geniuses are those that can defy science itself (referring to kusuo)

i apologize :-( i don't really know where i'm going with this, to be honest. anytime i see a post mentioning kusuke and kusuo's relationship my mind goes to cain and abel 😭

you could even say something about kusuo and kusuke from the fact cain and abel both tend to god's creations but abel tends to the flock while cain, the crops.

^ something about kusuo's telepathy and, shenanigans aside, his life is simple in PK, in comparison to kusuke's assumingly busy? life in cambridge. its the similar school setting but the levels and blahhhhh. different

tl;dr the cain&abel -> kusuke&kusuo connection is there in my head but it wont......... i cant put it into proper words........

[ahhvernin]

Every so often I come across the story of Cain and Abel and how Cain killed Abel in a fit of jealousy and he was marked by God and punished and everyone hates him because he was a murderer. I hate that story. Hear me out as someone who read the Bible out of spite because classmates kept harassing me for not knowing the art pieces we were studying in Art History Class... I hate it because god created the situation for jealousy to arise. He gave both lads a job. Abel the job of a shepherd and Cain the job of a farmer. Then they were suppose to give Big Daddy an offering. Abel gives him a lamb and Cain gives him his harvest. And Big Papa, dismisses Cain's gift and efforts in favor of the lamb.

Then the murder thing happened. BUT

Its never explained why the God didn't like Cain's offering. God, the entity who supposedly made the Garden of Eden, or OG gardener, didn't like or accept a harvest gift!

Now anyone who gardens or anyone who receives harvests from a gardener, knows how much work goes into growing those veggies and fruits. The grower generally is pretty happy if anything grows, often wants to share it, is happy to share it, and is happier when someone accepts them, and the receiver is usually pretty happy too.

But God was like , nah bro, you didn't it wrong, but you should still be happy even though what you did was wrong. Chill, or Sin will get you. For all we know, Cain tilled the land, seeded the land, fed and watered the land, tended the fields, maybe even let Abel graze in areas that he had worked on or even gave Abel some of the weeds and harvest to him and his sheep. And God just dismisses all that hard work! Cain probably felt REALLY scorned by this.

Because honestly. Imagine being told to do a job, and you put all your effort into it, and finally make something, and you present it to the person who gave you the job and they were just like "Yeah I like John Doe's work, you can put that away. Smile. So what if I don't want to look at it. You should be happy that you did it." Fuck. I would be broiling mad too! My rage would be so high I would probably be destroying things too. I'd probably hate John Doe too! Because more than likely I would have probably been like, "yeah buddy I'll help you out here, we're in this together. Lets get the jobs done" Story conveniently leaves out if Abel came in Cain's defense and was like "Hey Lord, look at Cain's offering too!" or maybe he was just like competition won, bro. We don't know!

Sure, the murder was wrong, but given that it was probably the first time it was really experienced in human history, the emotion probably didn't even have a name yet. And amidst of all of that raw emotion, God punishes Cain, and literally tells him that he will never be able to tend to the land and leaves him to wander as a nomad. Like my dude. This isn't about rage quitting, this is all about God giving Cain a job. dismissing his hard work, and flat out was like you can't do the job I gave you anymore and if you try, I'll make sure you fail for the rest of your life, oh and everyone will know you as the one who killed your brother in a fit of rage with no fault from me!

That Shit would not have happened, if God just accepted both, and accepted that both are offerings and neither is deemed more worthier than the other because the intention of giving was there. But Cain though scorned, still built communities, his children made homes and tools. So fuck the people who only know Cain for his jealousy and crime and use his name to continue to scorn, dismiss and treat people badly, without ever trying to see what lead them to their bad actions or just simply existing and doing their best. So then we bring it back to my AP Art history class. I read the Bible, so I could better understand material and hopefully not get harassed by classmates... Some of my classmates told me that it didn't matter that I read the Bible or could recognize and understand the class material better now, I would NEVER really understand the art and that their years of going to church somehow made them understand the art better. I got a the highest grade for that unit and got a 4 on the AP exam. So yeah Cain.

My take away from the story was, people will dismiss your hard work, you will get slighted, sometimes you will do bad things, you might get ostracized, realize some people cannot be changed and some cannot be bothered to learn about the truth, so separate yourself from them, find people who will support you, be resourceful and success in yourself and for the people who do care for you.

AND don't be gaslit into smiling, nodding and doing unnecessary or unrecognized work-- because you deserve recognition for your efforts.

PS. If you don't like my take on this, sure. I read it on my own, with a lens of wanting to learn and with curiosity, not to be converted. I read it solely to understand another human being's work and possible thoughts when creating a piece of art and not wanting to be harassed by classmates. which I still did. And what I got out of the Bible is solely my experience, and I thought God was rather a temperamental figure, I had many qualms with the stories and this was one of them and you don't have to like or accept this take. But also know what I got out of it... even if you don't like it....I still hope people recognize the time and effort you do and you are not solely recognized for the one mistake you did.

[rius-cave]

Although I don’t ship Cain x Abel, yet. Cain isn’t canon as of now and I do need to see Cain x Abel’s canon interactions, seeing all the anons and HCs does make me intrigued.

Is there something you want in Cain’s design/ personality?

SEE ANON, I COMPLETELY UNDERSTAND WHERE YOU'RE COMING FROM CAUSE I'M USUALLY LIKE THAT TOO

I need a PERSONALITY to really ship a pairing, most of the time. The thing about Cain and Abel is that we're kind of playing make believe with their story lol since they already have an established story in the bible and all that

Imma be real though, it's... sighs, its mostly about the dynamic and incest tropes in this case for me, instead of their actual personalities dfkgjdkgdt

I do enjoy some common incest tropes because they're TASTY. Specifically "sibling that feels guilty and ashamed of their attraction towards their sibling but can't help it x sibling that got over that a long time ago and just wants to kiss the other so bad already!!!!!"

And with Cain and Abel specifically I LOOOOOOVEEEEE the whole forgiveness things. Cain doesn't only feel guilty for being attracted to his brother, he also, naturally, feels guilty for having killed him over something so petty lol. Of course, I am assuming here that Cain could have a redemption and repentance arc, but that is the part that is tasty to me. I like the idea of Abel being willing to forgive Cain, but Cain still can't forgive himself. He only starts doing that when Abel shows him how much he loves him, both as a brother and as... something more hehe

That being said I don't actually want Cainbel to be canon LOL that would be fucking weird. I don't have any particular wishes for his design or personality, I guess it would be fun if he had anger issues, which is something we can extrapolate from the way he killed Abel, that's really about it lmaoo

[loving-family-poll]

2nd Ultimate Incest Tournament - Round 2

Propaganda under the cut

Jonas/Martha:

what if we were relatives thanks to a time paradox, and also loved each other so much we tried to destroy the timeline. and also died for/because of each other

They are So Much in every way. They love each other so much but they are so tragic. Jonas was willing to erase himself from existence if it meant Martha could be happy again (he did not succeed, but still). They’re able to recognize older versions of each other who have time-traveled back. Jonas literally BREAKS TIME AND SPACE to get back to Martha’s time and save her life. Meanwhile, in another timeline, a Martha who never knew Jonas still sleeps with him within a week of their meeting. The baby they have is called The Origin (real name on the birth certificate), and he’s literally described as the most important baby in the universe. Martha CAUSES THE APOCALYPSE so she and Jonas can have this baby. They have an in-world cult dedicated to the two of them being together. They kill each other in one timeline. And at the end of it all, when they’ve become mortal enemies and lived through their own separate time loops, they just hold hands so they can die old and grey together.

I would like everyone to know that they LITERALLY call themselves Adam and Eve and they have a giant cathedral dedicated to them with Adam and Eve paintings on the walls. and their descendants AND ancestors literally come to worship them there bc they believe they will bring paradise on earth. Beginning and end, alpha and omega, two sides of the infinity sign come together. and for the incest Martha is Jonas’ aunt

“You and I are perfect together. Never forget that.” Jonas would never guess that his teenage crush would turn out to be his aunt. Or that their love and inability to let go of one another would cause them both to lose everyone they’ve ever loved, trap them in a time loop unable to change any of the tragedy that befalls them and their child, and trigger the literal apocalypse. But, hey, life is unpredictable.

Cain/Abel:

the og brotherssss. invented murder.

Brothers inexorably tied together… brothers alone in a field, no witnesses but god… jealousy violence guilt sin… you get it.

Blueprint for violent older sibling & younger sibling relationships. Our beloved Cain complex comes from this story and where would we be without it? These two are the huge inspirations for both incestuous and non incestuous poetry, especially between brothers. Nothing represents the self destructiveness of incest more than these guys. Also I know they frotted in those fields, Eve told me.

[mistystarshine]

Considering some of your current answers, do you think that sexism is the reason Sera is so hated by the fanbase, even though she sports some good characteristics (that are completely removed in fanworks featuring her as a prominent character)? That, or media illiteracy (combined with sexism)?

I think that sexism is definitely part of it. I also think that media illiteracy is also a decent chunk of it. However, in terms of fanwork specifically, I think there's a completely unrelated reason that is a big part of it.

Hazbin Hotel only gave us five angels with names, and only four of them possess characterization: Adam, Lute, Sera, and Emily. That means that if you want an angel to serve as a villain and you want them to be a canon character, you need to use one of them. Emily is out unless you either get really OOC or REALLY creative. Adam and Lute are obvious choices, but if you're doing a story where they're sympathetic or getting a redemption arc, they're out. Or even if they aren't, but you want more than one angelic villain, who does that leave you with? Sera.

The simple fact of the matter is that, unless they are very well-written, OOC characters tend to be more well-received than OCs. There are a lot of people who will outright refuse to give a fic a chance if they know that an OC plays a prominent role. If you want your OC to be well-received, you need to write them well, and that's intimidating! There are people who don't give a shit and are comfortable writing prominent at any experience level, and more power to them! But for other writers, it becomes nerve-wracking. You also need to consider that this is the Hazbin fandom, specifically. It feels, at least to me, that if your story is going to include a prominent OC, they need to be taken from the bible. But not everyone is comfortable writing bible characters who haven't appeared in canon. (I know that I probably wouldn't even if paid! But that's also a little bit due to spite over how much I've been pressured and nagged to write about Eve, Cain, and Abel.) That means that if you're writing an outright OC, there's even more pressure for them to be well-written to "justify" not using a bible character.

No one likes receiving mean comments. When you write OCs, you face an increased risk of receiving mean comments. What's more accepted? Sanding off a complex character's positive attributes to make them fit in an exaggerated or relatively flat villainous role, especially when it's a character who the fanbase does not particularly like.

And you know what? I don't blame them for it! No, I personally won't read fanfics where a character is written especially OOC, even if it is purely because the story needs a villain. Yes, I encourage people to write OCS when there is a hole in the story that needs filling and no canon characters fit. But developing your own characters is hard! It takes lots of time and practice.

I use OCs when there's a gap in the story that none of the canon characters can fill, such as Anastasia and the residents of Oak Creek in Live Again, but it is also worth mentioning that I have been writing for sixteen years. I am actively writing original novels for publishing. I am perfectly comfortable designing my own characters for fics and confident in my ability to flesh them out enough to feel like actual character. But when I was less experienced, I was terrified to include OCs in any of my writing to the point of altering my plots if I would have needed to create an original character for it to work. If you have a story that you want to tell, aren't comfortable writing OCs, and need to write a character OOC to get a villain, then go for it. (Just... don't forget that your characterization isn't canon and start harassing other people for not using the same characterization. This goes for both writing canonically heroic or morally gray characters as outright villains and writing canonically villainous characters as heroic.)

That said... I, personally, would rather read a fic with an OC villain than one with an OOC villain, any day of the week. So what if their writing is a little flawed? People tend to forget that there's a wide spectrum in between 'insufferable Mary Sue' and 'would fit right into canon'. Just because your OC doesn't slot in perfectly doesn't mean that they'll be bad, and you won't get any better at writing them if you don't practice.

[francis-writes]

I'm super entranced by Ethel Cains 'Inbred'. Hear me out. Feyd to that song... He's just so religious satire and cannibalism as a form of love language coded. 'Touch me till i vomit' and 'He's so good to me and to nobody else, so you can fuck yourself' or 'If he wakes up, He'll show you what I'm talking about' STOOOOOOOOOOPPP fuming at the mouth

[I understood this are just thoughts about character, not a request, so if I'm wrong, please correct me. I suck at understanding intentions and anything that isn't put plain lol]

Unfortunately I don't listen to Ethel Cain (I heard her, just not my type of music) but you got me at cannibalism as a form of love. I love all the cannibalistic, gore, violent metaphors, idk maybe it's because I just like a man covered in blood, maybe because that how love feels when you're mentally ill.

Okay, so I'm checking my collection of cannibalism/love posts and somehow I forgot that I literally kept a screenshot of Ethel Cain herself.

Also kinda this:

Though I didn't think about religious satire before. I mean, I only wondered how much he knew about his role in Bene Gesserit's plans and whether it was any different for him than pressure of being an heir to house Harkonnen. So hard to say how he felt about being an important step in plan to create Kwisatz Haderach but I often compare his relations with people to biblical stories (I'm not Christian anymore but that's what growing up in religious household does to a mf). Like him and Paul, like Jesus and John the Baptist. Both born in the same time, both destined by God to great things. But no matter his talents and skills, he was the second. I don't know how much Frank Herbert was inspired by the Bible and how much it's my obsession with christian symbolism but also: especially Paul but also Feyd as important part of Kwisatz Haderach plan, remind me about Jesus and Isaac. Promised by God, special ones, admired, destined to great things, but also supposed to be sacrificed.

And Feyd and Rabban remind me about a few cases of siblings in the Bible, but mostly Cain and Abel? Elder brother jealous and bitter than the younger is God's favourite, that whatever Abel does is appreciated and praised, meanwhile efforts of Cain keep being rejected. There's a popular picture (bc Bible doesn't explain how God expressed his opinions on the offerings) that when they burnt their offerings for Lord, smoke from Abel's offering rised to the Heaven, showing that his gift was accepted and that Abel was worthy in God's eyes. Meanwhile smoke from Cain's offering floated downward. And I am just like. Yeah, that's Rabban and Feyd. And also Joseph and his brothers when he had dreams that all his siblings will bow to him...

Okay, I think I should stop here because I wandered out off topic and tbh I could continue this monologue about Dune/Bible correlation for a long, long time.

Apart from all my incoherent ramblings, I checked that song, and yeah... this is so Feyd (even the title, bc I suppose that in Dune marriages between close family in noble houses were rather popular; after all they wanted Feyd to marry Jessica's daughter, that would be his close cousin. Let me tell you, my family is from small village and for many generations there were marriages between close cousins, and if nobody stopped my grandma, she would marry family too. And I am a living mentally ill proof of how inbreeding ends)

[hypodermicfroggy]

The demons seized me again and when they finally released me, this was made.

"What Makes A Sinner?": Source and Character Axis Dynamics

Source Purist, Charcter Purist: Sinner must be a *main* character from a *classical* literary source. >>Example: Captain Nemo from 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea is a Sinner. Source Purist, Character Neutral: Sinner must be a *main* character from a literary source. >>Example: Damien Karras from The Exorcist is a Sinnner. YES I KNOW I USED HIS FILM VERSION IN THE CHART, SHUSH. Source Purist, Character Radical: Sinner must be a *main* character from any media source. >>Example: Isaac from The Binding of Isaac is a Sinner. Source Neutral, Character Purist: Sinner must be a character from a *classical* literary source. >>Example: Lavinia from Titus Andronicus is a Sinner. Source Neutral, Character Neutral: Sinner must be a character from a literary source. >>Example: Fernald the Hook-Handed Man from A Series of Unfortunate Events is a Sinner. Source Neutral, Character Radical: Sinner must be a character from any media source. >>Example: Sir Pentious from Hazbin Hotel is a Sinner. Apologies for being a Viviziepop fan on main. Source Radical, Character Purist: Sinner must be something from a *classical* literary source. >>Example: The rock from Cain's murder of Abel in The Bible is a Sinner. Source Radical, Character Neutral: Sinner must be something from a literary source. >>Example: The Bentley from Good Omens is a Sinner. Source Radical, Character Radical: Sinner must be something from any source. >>Example: YOU from real life are a Sinner!

[orionthecritter]

OKAY! I HAVE A SMALL LIL THEORY ABOUT TADC ANS ITS ADVENTURES!! IF YOU STILL HAVENT WATCHED THE NEW EPISODE, PLEASE DO CAUSE IM GONNA SPOIL SOME STUFF FROM IT!!

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OKAY! I noticed something while watching one of my fav YouTubers reacting to TADC, they were talking about how the show is like some sort of allegory for the bible, which makes sense considering everything that has happened in the past two/three episodes, in the pilot when Pomni goes into that weird liminal type space when trying to leave the circus, she enters an office which as the intitals of C&A (Caine and Abel), Caine is considered a god to NPCS, and obviously there’s the angel in the newest episode. SO IT GOT ME THINKING!!!! We all know of Dante’s Inferno, right? If you don’t, I highly recommend looking it up! And the one thing the YouTuber I was watching said ‘It’s like Pomni keeps on getting deeper and deeper’ or something like that, and I was like ‘Lol, it’s kinda reminds me of ultra kill.’

AND THEN! IT HIT ME!! THERE ARE THREE EPISODES SO FAR!! AND IF GOOSEWORX MAKES IT UP TO NINE EPISODES, THEN THIS THEORY MIGHT BE PRETTY DAMN CLOSE TO WHATEVER SHES PLANNING!!

This right here is Dante’s Inferno, and I noticed similarities in the episodes that can be tracked back here, but it was confusing, cause at first if didn’t make sense when I looked at it, and was about to throw the idea away when I thought of something, what if you looked at it backwards? AND HOLY FUCK GUYS! IT MAKES SO MUCH SENSE WHEN YOU DO!!! My main theory about the episodes is that Pomni is gonna have to go through hell (Literally and figuratively) before she could actually escape from the circus. And so, the minute the fourth episode comes out, I will be keeping an eye out for anymore biblical references, AND IF I NOTICE THAT THERES A SIMILARITY TO HERESY IN IT, THEN BE PREPARED FOR MY INSANITY CAUSE IM GOING TO EXPLODE IF THIS IS RIGHT IN SOME WAY.

There was originally more I wanted to say, but I accidentally deleted the half of it so you get the short version :P

[vulpes-stuff]

So for one of my classes, I had to take a story from the Hebrew Bible and rewrite it so I rewrote the storey of Cain and Abel from Lucifer's perspective

Take your crumbs you little hazbin gremlins

Favorites. The Lord always chose favorites. Lucifer glared up at the living as he watched a man murder his own blood simply for the attention of a Lord who wanted to morph the world into his own, who wanted to control every waking moment these humans had. He scowled when he saw God turn Cain away for not being worthy, but what does it truly mean to be worthy? Both of the boys were worthy in their own right but the Lord was simply too blind to see that. Abel provided his blood with warmth and clothing, while Cain gave them the food they needed. Both were worthy in the aspects of providing, giving their blood life.

Perhaps the Lord simply dislikes fruit because of his actions. Perhaps the Lord detests it and does not wish for fruit that could have come from the tree in Eden. But there was nothing wrong with that fruit! The Lord was angry at him! Why must he let that anger out on the blood from the man he has created? All Lucifer wished was to provide the creations with knowledge and dreams, freewill and joy, but the Lord simply did not agree with it, angered that he couldn’t mold these creations exactly how he pleases, and has let that anger infect him, controlling his every move.

Lucifer sighed, the Lord truly is unjust. No man should be punished for another man’s sin. Why must Cain suffer for his parents doing? For Lucifer’s doing? The man simply wished to provide, all he wished was to care for the family around him, including the man who’s blood now stained his hands. Lucifer’s glare sharpened as he watched the earth drink the blood and eat the body that was once Abel, watching as she enjoyed her meal but knew that not every being will have the same feelings towards the death of Abel.

He watched as the Lord came to Cain about the sin, watched as the Lord asked for Abel. He struggled not to laugh at his response to the Lord, smiling at the point he made while it only seemed to full God’s rage towards the man. Good, Lucifer snarled. Feel enraged, Lord, for this blood is on your hands as much as it’s on the poor boys. You pushed this boy past his limit by favoring his brother without an explanation to your actions, you have no one to blame but yourself.

Lucifer knew that the Lord would never hear his words, knew the Lord would never see past his sins, much like he was now towards poor Cain. He pities the boy, but emphasizes with him as he watches the Lord curse him, treating him as an outsider, much like he had done to the fallen angel. God never changes, does he? It’s always follow my will or you will be damned. Think not for yourself, but for me. What a truly unjust being. One cannot damn another for his sins even with his hands drenched with sins of his own, yet here the Lord is, damning a boy for his sins before acknowledging his own. Lucifer may be prideful, but the Lord is more so.

Lucifer watches as the boy runs, watches as he tries to live with the mark the Lord has cursed him with. And he envies the boy as he watches him succeed, building a city and a family of his own, watches as he grows old and dies as his family continues to grow. He watches as the Lord ignores the family until a boy, Noah, is born. He watches as the Lord favors the boy, much more than he had anyone else in the bloodline, even saving the boy from his flood.

Favorites. The Lord will always choose favorites.

[eyesteeth]

ok sure why not. storytime

so my immediate family is not particularly religious. my mother was raised catholic, but her mother (my maternal grandmother) had a crisis of faith when my mother was little, so that really affected her perception of the whole thing. meanwhile, my dad was raised very nondenominationally christian, and just slowly fell off the wagon as he got older.

my mother’s side of the family? not very religious (or at least, of the relatives i see, not around us). my father’s side of the family? we are talking bible-belt pure-bred appalachian believers. people who will hunt down every family member in a 55 person gathering so we can all stand in a circle and say grace for six minutes. and my nana (my dad’s mother, my paternal grandmother) saw it as her god-given duty to make sure her grandchildren got back on the wagon her youngest son fell off of.

she did this by, without letting my parents know, taking me and my sister to her local church every easter. for several years we would spend the night at her house the day before easter, wake up at her place, and then go to a different relative’s house for afternoon easter celebrations. and she decided to use that morning window to have me and my sister go to what felt like the world’s earliest service.

now, we only actually went to this church for three easters. my nana wanted to take me and my sister there when we were both at an age to actually understand what was happening, so she waited until we reached that level of understanding. the tradition only lasted for three years because that was how long it took me to get banned, and for my parents to find out.

this church ran on a three strikes system for the kids. i accumulated one strike per year.

the first strike was me getting a nosebleed. because me and my sister were new, and my nana had told the priest about trying to convert her grandkids, we had to introduction ourselves. my sister stands up, in a nice dress, introduces herself, gets a little bit of applause. i stand up, my best shirt being a blue flannel with a rhinestone owl in the breast pocket, open my mouth, and taste iron. i spent most of the service in the bathroom, and went home woozy. this was a strike because it absolutely terrified some of the younger members, who thought i was a demon of some sort.

the second strike was me taking a sip from the baptismal fountain. the priest said it was holy water and i wanted to see if it tasted different, so i split from the group and had a couple licks. it was tepid water that i can only assume had been there for a few days, so i thought it was gross. i told one of the kids about it and they told the youth group leader and that was strike two.

the third strike was the cain thing. i was a very snarky, sassy, ‘gotcha’ atheist as a teen (fortunately i’ve grown out of this) and they were telling us the story of cain and abel in the basement, because that’s where the youth group was. i said something very similar to the post above, “why’d he get accused of murder when he was the first person who did it, how did he know that was going to kill abel, my sister bites me all the time, injuring your sibling is just a Sibling Thing” and i so thoroughly would not step off the point that the youth counselor called my nana to pick me up. i was not welcome after that.

now, i admit that it may not have been all my fault. it’s possible that this was a smokescreen for the church disliking that my nana only ever brought her grandkids to church on the day they were having cookies and punch and candy hunting in the backyard. i did get banned from egg hunting for being too old, despite being well within age, cause i found a disproportionate amount of eggs the first time i did egg hunting there. i also, with my dyed hair and flannel, screamed dyke, and they might not have vibed with that.

but regardless, i am lifetime banned from a small church in the appalachian mountains, and my sister may be as well due to my actions. she has since found god, and i’ve found an utterly bizarre believe system that would probably get me double-banned from that church. so it goes.