#marion zimmer bradley

[perasperaadpasta]

I have no empathy for Good Omens or Sandman or whatever other Gaiman work fans who 1. just cannot help making the allegations about themselves and 2. are genuinely heartbroken to the point of being unwilling to reasses their attachment to these works (these usually overlap).

When I found out an author I was obsessed with, whose works I read nearly in their entirety and voraciously, whose stories inspired me and filled my imagination for years, turned out to be a paedophile who abused her children, facilitated the abuse of multiple others by her also paedophile husband, and raped her daughter, none of that... mattered anymore. How could it possibly?

I'm talking about Marion Zimmer Bradley, if her rap sheet isn't familiar. Having grown up a nerd who could read at highschool level at 7, and who was, at 12, already sick of how male-centered fiction (and particularly fantasy, my favorite genre) was, discovering The Mists of Avalon was a revelation. The pointedly anti-Christian, unapologetically female-centered narrative was a near-spiritual balm for a closeted lesbian kid in a Catholic small town.

I read all of her Arthuriana books and all of her Darkover series I could find. I'm interested in Arthuriana to this day because of the point of view she offered. The possibility of shifting the male gaze pervasive in art to a female view from within was so instrumental to how I approach art at all. And this is, of course, not pioneered nor exclusive to Bradley, but it was my introduction to it, to this critical and yet respectful framework of experiencing art.

And yet. When I learned what she'd done, it fundamentally and irrevocably changed what she'd said.

Is it really still a work of feminist expression if composed by a rapist? I cannot reconcile the thought that the most execrable creature in feminist thinking can be capable of anything but farcical, hypocritical emulation of sincerity, convincing as it may be. It cannot possibly be earnest and its pretense is pervasive. Even if the story was otherwise so good, so entertaining that its message could be sidelined, there's hardly a lack of that that makes this particular one indispensable.

My admiration for her is all revulsion now. I have no interest in what this sort of thing has to say about anything, safe for possibly in the context of criminal psychology.

I will never reread it. I will never recommend it as entertainment and least of all feminist entertainment.

And here's the thing, this wasn't life-ruining for me. This did not hurt me personally. My world didn't shatter, it didn't even crack. Important as it may have been, the loss of a THING, a book, ONE story in a world so saturated with them several hundred lifetimes wouldn't suffice to know them, is not a loss I would ever have the self-indulgent embarrasment of mourning. It was what it was once, and it is what it is now.

The only people who were hurt were her victims.

Absolutely no exceptions. It's vulgar to a degree I can't wrap my head around to consider otherwise.

[lillyli-74]

Seek not to bring me forth, when I am resigned to stay here in death. Here within these undying lands all is at rest, with neither pain nor struggle, here can I forget both love and grief.

~Marion Zimmer Bradley

[vmures]

Art is a tool for expression and conveying emotions, ideas, and experiences. While art always carries seeds of its creator, it also becomes so much more than that once it is let free into the world. It becomes a conversation, a layered thing with different meanings and impacts on different people.

Humans are complex beings and everyone can create art. It can be heartbreaking and infuriating to learn that the creator of a piece of art that profoundly influenced you and changed you, that has become part of you, is a horrible, vile person. But it is important to remember that their art is more than the creator themself. Liking the art and finding meaning in it doesn't make you a horrible person.

It is also very valid to be unable to see the art the same way after you learn about the creator. Everyone has to wrestle with their own relationship to the art in question and how they know view it. You can still appreciate the meaning it had for you once upon a time while acknowledging that it hits differently now.

Often the hardest thing is not the fact that the creator is a vile person, but that they built a convincing mask of being kind and encouraging to others. While we often understand that public personas are not who people really are, when someone makes kindness their brand, it feels like a betrayal to learn that they have been using that mask to prey on others. I know for me, there is a part of me that is mad at falling for the con and that knows I would have been perfect prey because I fell for it.

So when such an unmasking happens, as it so often does, the best advice I can offer is this: be kind, to yourself and to others, as you all wrestle with this paradigm shift. Give yourself space and let yourself feel what you feel. Learn from it. Remind yourself that what we know of creators usually fills less than a thimble if we could distill knowledge into liquid. We know their art, but not them. We can appreciate that they make compelling art without putting them on a pedestal. Remind yourself that all creators are human and pedestals are dangerous places to put anyone, because inevitably you will be let down.

[wild-oats-and-cornflowers]

Thinking about the Neil Gaiman revelations, as someone who has been a casual enjoyer of his work for years. A lot of people are having a tough time with this, and I thought I would chime in my 2 cents on the topic of How To Deal.

I remember in my early 20s (so, like, around 2010 or so) learning about the terrible backstory to Marion Zimmer Bradley, who had both emotionally abused her children and allowed her second husband to abuse them sexually - as well as covering up for his repeated sexual abuse of young boys outside the family. Her Darkover novels had been extremely emotionally important to me in my teen years, and it was very hard having to try and figure out what to do about the fact that someone whose objectively skillfully written books had brought me so much joy and validation and strength had actually been an abuser and abuse facilitator. It was especially boggling to consider that one of her books' plot partly hinged on the profound misery that occurred as a result of unwanted sexual harassment/borderline sexual assault from a socially powerful older man towards a vulnerable teenage boy - the same kind of abusive behavior (though, to a lesser degree even!) that she had excused and covered up in her husband - and how appalling it was for there not to be proper consequences for such abusive behavior. Meaning that she KNEW that what she was excusing and covering up for was bad, and yet she could simultaneously continue to cover it up and excuse it, and abuse her own children, while writing books with beautiful prose that condemned abuse and praised kindness and open-mindedness. A really insane dichotomy of mind, I guess.

The good things I took away from the Darkover books were real, just as real as the terrible things that Bradley did irl; the good things that people have taken away from Gaiman's books are real too, just as real as the terrible things that he did irl. It's natural to want to distance oneself from someone one has just discovered to be awful; that doesn't mean that one has to distance oneself from the good things one already gained. Terrible people can produce beautiful things, and both of those aspects can be true and acknowledged without needing to deny either one. It doesn't make someone a bad person to have unknowingly taken comfort or joy from the work of a morally deplorable person, and it doesn't make them bad to still feel that they got something valuable there. Being a bad person doesn't render someone incapable of skill in writing, either. Acknowledge the badness of the author, yes, it's irresponsible not to. But that doesn't put the onus on you to rewrite your own past.

[autisticexpression2]

Neil Gaiman is awful, but some of the discourse I'm seeing on here is unhinged even by tumblr standards. By all means, avoid any future projects he is involved in, but I'm seeing multiple posts demanding that everyone religiously abstain from everything he has ever touched, including books they ALREADY OWN. And then they bring up their own boycott of their Marion Zimmer Bradley collection as if that helps their case. As if it's not even more insane to do this for an author who has been dead for 24 years.

We all need some fresh air, I think.

[cynicalclassicist]

With the stuff about Neil Gaiman that is coming out, I wonder if this might be for my generation what it was like when the stuff about Marion Zimmer Bradley came out. I suppose that with JK Rowling it's a bit like that, but I think that the comparison works better otherwise. You get the idea, we feel disappointed with the authors that we loved.

[pryotra]

At this point I actively condemn anyone who recommends the Mists of Avalon. It's been ten years since her daughter went public. There's no more excuse.

[vavuska]

So all in the same week…

Neil Gaiman, author Coraline & Good Omens, was MeTooed by his former nanny, as well as a fan he met when she was 18 yrs old.

A NY Times bestselling thriller author, Brendan DuBois— who co-wrote books with James Patterson—was arrested for pedopornography.

AND

Alice Munro’s daughter revealed she was assaulted by her step father as a kid—the man admitted it—but Munro saw it as an “infidelity” and stayed with him. Even AFTER he was found guilty in court—this rembers me of Marion Zimmer Bradley's daughter (I wrote about it here). All covered up.

Seriously.

[haveyoureadthisbook-poll]

[thefugitivesaint]

Alan Gutierrez, ''Marion Zimmer Bradley's Fantasy Magazine'', #48, Summer 2000 Source

[moratoirenoir]

[dreaminginthedeepsouth]

Avalon. A view from Glastonbury Tor a week ago.

"Glastonbury, Avalon, the Isle of Glass as seen through the archway of St Michael's tower this morning before sunrise. The colours in the sky reflected in the flood waters below."

~ 'Visions of Somerset'

[Thank you Ian Sanders]

+

“And so, perhaps, the truth winds somewhere between the road to Glastonbury, Isle of the Priests, and the road to Avalon, lost forever in the mists of the Summer Sea.” ― Marion Zimmer Bradley, The Mists of Avalon

+

“Avalon will always be there for all men to find if they can seek the way thither, throughout all the ages past the ages. If they cannot find the way to Avalon, it is a sign, perhaps, that they are not ready." - Kevin” ― Marion Zimmer Bradley, The Mists of Avalon

+

“Beyond the River of the Blessed, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Avalon. Our swords were shattered in our hands and we hung our shields on the oak tree. The silver towers were fallen, into a sea of blood. How many miles to Avalon? None, I say, and all. The silver towers are fallen. …waters,where the stars shone like bonfires at night and the green of day was always the green of spring. Youth, love, beauty-I knew them in Avalon. Proud steeds, bright metal, soft lips, dark ale. Honor…” ― Roger Zelazny, The Chronicles of Amber

[thisweekinfandomhistory]

No quippy exclamation this week, because V and Emily delve into probably the worst, most shameful, most infuriating, just awful pair of people ever to be associated with fandom history: scifi authors and fucking monsters Marion Zimmer Bradley and Walter Breen. This is not a lighthearted episode in any way. Please heed the trigger warnings and take care of yourself if you choose to listen. History is not always fun and celebratory and silly Star Trek holidays. Sometimes it's going, "This horrible, ugly thing is part of our architectural foundation. Now what?"  TW: CSA, rape, incest, total institutional failure to safeguard minors.

Sources

Marion Zimmer Bradley's Child Abuse

MZB Gave Us New Perspectives, All Right

Timeline of Events

MZB on Fanlore

Joanna Russ on Fanlore

1960s Fan History Outline, Chapter 8

Vonda N. McIntyre: Darkover Landfall Reviewed (1974)

The Guardian comments section (2014)

Tor.com Yanks MZB Birthday Tribute

Elizabeth Waters Deposition (1997)

Breendoggle on Fancyclopedia

The Great Breen Boondoggle on Fancyclopedia

Breendoggle Wiki

Walter Breen on Fanlore

This Week In Fandom History is a fandom-centric podcast that tells you… what happened this week in fandom history!

Follow This Week in Fandom History on Tumblr at @thisweekinfandomhistory

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[mask131]

Yep I am pretty sure the absence of Zimmer Bradley discourse around here is due to a generational thingy. Because I see posts on Tumblr (quite popular ones) that are "Neil Gaiman's downfall is a proof that you should distrust every male author and not assume a male author is not a predator" (which is... a take, for sure, but that's not the point), and people in the notes logically answer "You know, women can be guilty of this too!"

... And then they add "Look at JK Rowling".

I am not a big follower of Rowling's life, but I am pretty certain she never was accused of rape or sexual crimes? The obvious, logical, MASSIVE comparison is Marion Zimmer Bradley, and yet nobody makes it and everybody, EVERY SINGLE BODY that posts about Gaiman's accusations on Tumblr compares him/opposes him/replaces him with JK Rowling.

I knew that Tumblr was the number one fan-site for Harry Potter but HOLY SHIT ARE ALL OF YOU FORMER OR CURRENT POTTERHEADS THAT WERE NOT BORN BEFORE THE FIRST MOVIE ADAPTATIONS GOT RELEASED OR WHAT?

I am especially angry at the people that go "See, turns out, they should have stayed a fan of Rowling" or "Now you will regret choosing Gaiman over Rowling" or "Well Rowling wasn't that bad after all". I had predicted this would happen, that people would weaponize the Gaiman situation to try to defend, justify and glorify Rowling, and bam! It is starting to happen. I just wasn't planning for it to happen on Tumblr...

These things are not at all on the same level, they can only be vaguely compared at, and if you want a direct, brutal, harsh but true parallel, it's Marion Zimmer Bradley! I know that a lot of people consider 80s or 90s fantasy or sci-fi novels "the old ones" and don't even know a single name of a 50s title, but come on, the Bradley scandal erupted in 2014, it's not that old...

[emlybronte]

BOOK PRIORITIES FOR 2025

Nicholas Nickelby by Charles Dickens

Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norrell by Suzanna Clarke

Human Acts by Han Kang

Babel by R.F. Kuang

The Mists of Avalon by Marion Zimmer Bradley

The Little Friend by Donna Tartt

Hamnet by Maggie O'Farrell

The King's Curse by Philippa Gregory

[autisticexpression2]

I'm reading The Mists of Avalon by Marion Zimmer Bradley (I know, but she's dead), and it's a really interesting speculative reconstruction of British paganism, but her perception of early medieval Christianity is fucking bonkers. Seriously, Guinevere gets beaten in school for touching a harp??? What in the Calvinist footloose fuck is this???