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ladyofasoiaf · 4 years ago

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Jon ‘One Eye’ & Sansa Stark

In this meta I will try to point out the clues of Jon’s death- warging into his direwolf- coming back to life process.

Our main hint is going to be : ONE EYE motifs...

And interestingly this hint is always close to Sansa...

[Most of these clues etc have been already examined by many people but I will try to put them all in order to show the pattern..]

A GAME OF THRONES:

Waymar Royce

Waymar Royce appearence and story are very similar with Jon’s.

They look similar:

Ser Waymar Royce was the youngest son of an ancient house with too many heirs. He was a handsome youth of eighteen, grey-eyed and graceful and slender as a knife.

[AGOT; Prologue]

Jon’s eyes were a grey so dark they seemed almost black, but there was little they did not see. He was of an age with Robb, but they did not look alike. Jon was slender where Robb was muscular, dark where Robb was fair, graceful and quick where his half brother was strong and fast.

[AGOT; Bran I]

They are both young men of Night’s Watch but they were not very welcomed by their other black brothers:

His cloak was his crowning glory; sable, thick and black and soft as sin. “Bet he killed them all himself, he did,” Gared told the barracks over wine, “twisted their little heads off, our mighty warrior.” They had all shared the laugh. It is hard to take orders from a man you laughed at in your cups, Will reflected as he sat shivering atop his garron. Gared must have felt the same.

[AGOT; Prologue]

“Yes, life,” Noye said. “A long life or a short one, it’s up to you, Snow. The road you’re walking, one of your brothers will slit your throat for you one night.” “They’re not my brothers,” Jon snapped. “They hate me because I’m better than they are.” “No. They hate you because you act like you’re better than they are. They look at you and see a castle-bred bastard who thinks he’s a lordling.” The armorer leaned close. “You’re no lordling. Remember that. You’re a Snow, not a Stark. You’re a bastard and a bully.”

[AGOT; Jon III]

Others are a very important part of Jon’s arc and story and Waymar meets with them in Prologue:

Ser Waymar met him bravely. “Dance with me then.” He lifted his sword high over his head, defiant. His hands trembled from the weight of it, or perhaps from the cold. Yet in that moment, Will thought, he was a boy no longer, but a man of the Night’s Watch.

[AGOT; Prologue]

This phrase also reminds us Jon:

It is more than impatience, Jon realized. They are afraid. Warriors, spearwives, raiders, they are frightened of those woods, of shadows moving through the trees. They want to put the Wall between them before the night descends.

A snowflake danced upon the air. Then another. Dance with me, Jon Snow, he thought. You’ll dance with me anon.

[ADWD; Jon XII]

In Prologue, Waymar gets killed by Others:

Royce’s body lay facedown in the snow, one arm out-flung. The thick sable cloak had been slashed in a dozen places. Lying dead like that, you saw how young he was. A boy.

[AGOT; Prologue]

And Jon dies in ADWD:

Jon fell to his knees. He found the dagger’s hilt and wrenched it free. In the cold night air the wound was smoking. “Ghost,” he whispered. Pain washed over him. Stick them with the pointy end. When the third dagger took him between the shoulder blades, he gave a grunt and fell face-first into the snow. He never felt the fourth knife. Only the cold …

[ADWD; Jon XIII]

But Waymar comes back to life as a wight with ‘ONE EYE’:

Will rose. Ser Waymar Royce stood over him. His fine clothes were a tatter, his face a ruin. A shard from his sword transfixed the blind white pupil of his left eye. The right eye was open. The pupil burned blue. It saw.

[AGOT; Prologue]

So: A young man of Night’s Watch who looks like Jon dies and comes back to life with ONE EYE.

Let’s continue with the second book...

A CLASH OF KINGS:

Orell

Orell is Wildling who is also a skinchanger. His animal is an EAGLE.

Jon kills Orell in ACOK; Jon VI:

Jon nodded toward the one by the fire. It felt queer, picking a man to kill.

[...]

Jon’s man leapt to his feet, thrusting at his face with a burning brand. He could feel the heat of the flames as he flinched back. Out of the corner of his eye, he saw the sleeper stirring, and knew he must finish his man quick. When the brand swung again, he bulled into it, swinging the bastard sword with both hands. The Valyrian steel sheared through leather, fur, wool, and flesh, but when the wildling fell he twisted, ripping the sword from Jon’s grasp.

[...]

“You ought to burn them you killed,” said Ygritte.

[ACOK; Jon VI]

But due to the magic of skinchanging, a portion of Orell’s consciousness remained in the eagle, which developed a fierce hatred for Jon.

And in ACOK; Jon VII he dreams of an eagle attacking him and people talk about vargs and skinchangers:

Then a sudden gust of cold made his fur stand up, and the air thrilled to the sound of wings. As he lifted his eyes to the ice-white mountain heights above, a shadow plummeted out of the sky. A shrill scream split the air. He glimpsed blue-grey pinions spread wide, shutting out the sun… “Ghost!” Jon shouted, sitting up. He could still feel the talons, the pain. “Ghost, to me!” Ebben appeared, grabbed him, shook him. “Quiet! You mean to bring the wildlings down on us? What’s wrong with you, boy?” “A dream,” said Jon feebly. “I was Ghost, I was on the edge of the mountain looking down on a frozen river, and something attacked me. A bird… an eagle, I think…”

[...]

“Skinchanger?” said Ebben grimly, looking at the Halfhand. Does he mean the eagle? Jon wondered. Or me? Skinchangers and wargs belonged in Old Nan’s stories, not in the world he had lived in all his life. Yet here, in this strange bleak wilderness of rock and ice, it was not hard to believe.

[ACOK; Jon VII]

So: There is a skinchanger who dies because of Jon but a part of him keeps living in his animal: eagle.

The interesting thing is that between these two Jon chapters (Orell and eagle dream) comes a very important Sansa chapter which has many parallels with Jon VI chapter...

An example of parallels:

[…] ‘All I ask is a flower,’ Bael answered, ‘the fairest flower that blooms in the gardens o’ Winterfell.”

“Now as it happened the winter roses had only then come into bloom, and no flower is so rare nor precious…

[ACOK; Jon VI]

Sansa lowered her head. “The blood frightened me.”

“The blood is the seal of your womanhood. Lady Catelyn might have prepared you. You’ve had your first flowering, no more.”

Sansa had never felt less flowery. “My lady mother told me, but I… I thought it would be different.”

[ACOK; Sansa IV]

For more, please check: Jonsa Book Hints: B5

In this chapter Sansa says she wants to be loved and Cersei warns her that “love kills too...” Next chapter is Jon with his eagle dreams and warging abilities:

A half smile flickered across the queen’s face. “[…]Robert wanted to be loved. My brother Tyrion has the same disease. Do you want to be loved, Sansa?”

“Everyone wants to be loved.”

“I see flowering hasn’t made you any brighter,” said Cersei. “Sansa, permit me to share a bit of womanly wisdom with you on this very special day. Love is poison. A sweet poison, yes, but it will kill you all the same.”

[ACOK; Sansa IV]

Let’s move on to third book...

A STORM OF SWORDS:

Orell and Wargs

In ASOS; Jon I, we learn the name of the Wildling that Jon has killed in ACOK; Jon VI:

“He slew Qhorin Halfhand,” said Longspear Ryk. “Him and that wolf o’ his.”

“And did for Orell too,” said Rattleshirt.

“The lad’s a warg, or close enough,” put in Ragwyle, the big spearwife. “His wolf took a piece o’ Halfhand’s leg.”

[...]

“What’s this?” he said. “A crow?”

“The black bastard what gutted Orell,” said Rattleshirt, “and a bloody warg as well.”

“You were to kill them all.”

“This one come over,” explained Ygritte. “He slew Qhorin Halfhand with his own hand.”

[ASOS; Jon I]

This Jon chapter comes after ASOS; Sansa I.

And these chapters have many parallels such as:

Sansa knelt at the feet of her future queen. “You do me great honor, Your Grace.” “Won’t you call me Margaery? Please, rise. Loras, help the Lady Sansa to her feet. Might I call you Sansa?”

[ASOS; Sansa I]

“I would be pleased to eat, Your Grace. And thank you.”

“Your Grace?” The king smiled. “That’s not a style one often hears from the lips of the free folk. I’m Mance to most, The Mance to some. Will you take a horn of mead?”

[ASOS; Jon I]

For more, please check: Jonsa Book Hints: C1

We also learn about Sansa’s new betrothed: Willas Tyrell..

Willas has a bad leg and so does Jon, in ASOS:

“Willas has a bad leg but a good heart,” said Margaery. “He used to read to me when I was a little girl, and draw me pictures of the stars. You will love him as much as we do, Sansa.”

[ASOS; Sansa I]

If the mare had gone down, he would have been doomed. “A lucky thing my leg got in the way,” he muttered.

He rested for a while to let the horse graze. She did not wander far. That was good. Hobbled with a bad leg, he could never have caught her.

[ASOS; Jon V]

Let’s keep reading...

In ASOS; Jon II chapter Jon’s eagle dream from ACOK comes true and Orell’s eagle attacks Jon’s eye:

He could still hear wings, though the eagle was not in sight. Half his world was black. “My eye,” he said in sudden panic, raising a hand to his face.

“It’s only blood, Jon Snow. He missed the eye, just ripped your skin up some.”

[…]

Can a bird hate? Jon had slain the wilding Orell, but some part of the man remained within the eagle. The golden eyes looked out on him with cold malevolence.

[…]

I will need to get this tended, he thought, but not just now. Let the King-beyond-the-Wall see what his eagle did to me.

[…]

The look Mance gave Jon was grim and cold. “What happened to your face?”

Ygritte said, “Orell tried to take his eye out.”

“It was him I asked. Has he lost his tongue? Perhaps he should, to spare us further lies.”

Styr the Magnar drew a long knife. “The boy might see more clear with one eye, instead of two.”

“Would you like to keep your eye, Jon?” asked the King-beyond-the-Wall. “If so, tell me how many they were. And try and speak the truth this time, Bastard of Winterfell.”

Jon’s throat was dry. “My lord… what…”

[ASOS; Jon II]

Jon almosts loses his ‘one eye’ and becomes Jon ‘One Eye’ Snow because of this attack..

After this eagle attack Jon chapter comes ASOS; Sansa II

And these chapters have many parallels such as:

Jon wheeled and followed Tormund back toward the head of the column, his new cloak hanging heavy from his shoulders. It was made of unwashed sheepskins, worn fleece side in, as the wildlings suggested.

[…]

“I wear the cloak you gave me, Your Grace.”

[ASOS; Jon II]

A new gown?” she said, as wary as she was astonished.

“More lovely than any you have worn, my lady,” the old woman promised. She measured Sansa’s hips with a length of knotted string. “All silk and Myrish lace, with satin linings. You will be very beautiful. The queen herself has commanded it.”

“Which queen?” Margaery was not yet Joff’s queen, but she had been Renly’s. Or did she mean the Queen of Thorns? Or…“The Queen Regent, to be sure.”

[ASOS; Sansa II]

For more, please check: Jonsa Book Hints: C2

And after the chapter of an eagle attacks Jon’s eye we learn in next chapter that Sansa’s betrothed Willas Tyrell flies EAGLES:

“Willas has the best birds in the Seven Kingdoms,” Margaery said when the two of them were briefly alone. “He flies an eagle sometimes. You will see, Sansa.”

[ASOS; Sansa II]

Why is Almost One Eye Jon and Sansa Stark being near to each other important?

Because the first Sansa Stark in Stark family tree was married with her half-uncle Jonnel ‘One Eye’ Stark:

So another Sansa being close to another Stark family member who almost had lost his one eye sounds interesting.

Well, Jon didn’t lose his eye but his face got scarred:

He had almost forgotten about his face. “A skinchanger tried to rip out my eye.”

Noye frowned. “Scarred or smooth, it’s a face I thought I’d seen the last of. We heard you’d gone over to Mance Rayder.”

[ASOS; Jon VI]

Who else has a scarred face? Sansa’s husband- Tyrion Lannister:

“I like your scar.” She traced it with her finger. “It makes you look very fierce and strong.”

He laughed. “Very ugly, you mean.”

“M’lord will never be ugly in my eyes.” She kissed the scab that covered the ragged stub of his nose.

[ASOS; Tyrion II]

Varamyr

What happens to this eagle later?

Skinchanger, Varamyr Sixskins, takes control of Orell’s eagle. Varamyr uses the eagle to scout Castle Black and spots Stannis Baratheon’s arrival at the Wall.

The eagle bursts into flames during the attack on Castle Black with Melisandre claiming she was responsible.

The skinchanger was grey-faced, round-shouldered, and bald, a mouse of a man with a wolfling’s eyes. “Once a horse is broken to the saddle, any man can mount him,” he said in a soft voice. “Once a beast’s been joined to a man, any skinchanger can slip inside and ride him. Orell was withering inside his feathers, so I took the eagle for my own. But the joining works both ways, warg. Orell lives inside me now, whispering how much he hates you. And I can soar above the Wall, and see with eagle eyes.”

[...]

“Banners,” he heard Varamyr murmur, “I see golden banners, oh . . .” A mammoth lumbered by, trumpeting, a half-dozen bowmen in the wooden tower on its back. “The king . . . no . . .”

Then the skinchanger threw back his head and screamed.The sound was shocking, ear-piercing, thick with agony. Varamyr fell, writhing, and the ’cat was screaming too.... and high, high in the eastern sky, against the wall of cloud, Jon saw the eagle burning. For a heartbeat it flamed brighter than a star, wreathed in red and gold and orange, its wings beating wildly at the air as if it could fly from the pain. Higher it flew, and higher, and higher still.

[ASOS; Jon X]

Melisandre burns the eagle. Who else got burned in the books?

Jon Snow in AGOT:

He had burned himself more badly than he knew throwing the flaming drapes, and his right hand was swathed in silk halfway to the elbow. At the time he’d felt nothing; the agony had come after.

[AGOT; Jon VIII]

And Jon burns himself in AGOT; Jon VII:

Jon tried to shout, but his voice was gone. Staggering to his feet, he kicked the arm away and snatched the lamp from the Old Bear’s fingers. The flame flickered and almost died. “Burn!” the raven cawed. “Burn, burn, burn!”

Spinning, Jon saw the drapes he’d ripped from the window. He flung the lamp into the puddled cloth with both hands. Metal crunched, glass shattered, oil spewed, and the hangings went up in a great whoosh of flame. The heat of it on his face was sweeter than any kiss Jon had ever known. “Ghost!” he shouted.

The direwolf wrenched free and came to him as the wight struggled to rise, dark snakes spilling from the great wound in its belly. Jon plunged his hand into the flames, grabbed a fistful of the burning drapes, and whipped them at the dead man. Let it burn, he prayed as the cloth smothered the corpse, gods, please, please, let it burn.

[AGOT; Jon VII]

This Jon chapter comes after AGOT; Sansa IV:

And these two chapters have many parallels such as:

So she went to the queen instead, and poured out her heart, and Cersei had listened and thanked her sweetly … only then Ser Arys had escorted her to the high room in Maegor’s Holdfast and posted guards, and a few hours later, the fighting had begun outside.

[AGOT; Sansa IV]

They took his knife and his sword and told him he was not to leave his cell until the high officers met to decide what was to be done with him. And then they placed a guard outside his door to make certain he obeyed. His friends were not allowed to see him, but the Old Bear did relent and permit him Ghost, so he was not utterly alone.

[AGOT; Jon VII]

Yet somehow it seemed colder with Jeyne gone, even after she’d built a fire. She pulled a chair close to the hearth, took down one of her favorite books, and lost herself in the stories of Florian and Jonquil, of Lady Shella and the Rainbow Knight, of valiant Prince Aemon and his doomed love for his brother’s queen.

[AGOT; Sansa IV]

Yet he was trembling, violently. When had it gotten so cold?

[…] 

Metal crunched, glass shattered, oil spewed, and the hangings went up in a great whoosh of flame. The heat of it on his face was sweeter than any kiss Jon had ever known. “Ghost!” he shouted.

[AGOT; Jon VII]

For more, please check: Jonsa Book Hints: A10

What happens to skinchanger Orell and warg Varamyr after the eagle burst into flames?

The incident greatly affects Varamyr and supposedly kills the remnants of Orell inside the eagle.

After the defeat of the wildlings at the battle beneath the Wall, Varamyr has lost all his possessions in his madness from experiencing the eagle’s death; he has also lost control of his snow bear and shadowcat, but his wolves remain.

[Orell dying completely and Varamyr gets mad also reminds me another resurrected character Beric Dondarrion who also has ONE EYE and him dying for good to bring Catelyn Stark back to life... And like Varamyr, Lady Stoneheart loses her mind too... ]

Let’s move on to fourth book...

A FEAST FOR CROWS:

Jon is not even in this book?

But Sansa is and we learn few things about her crushes:

Waymar Royce:

She had fallen wildly in love with Ser Waymar, she remembered dimly, but that was a lifetime ago, when she was a stupid little girl.

[AFFC; Alayne I]

Grrm reminds us Waymar Royce aka the biggest foreshadowing for Jon in AFFC book via Sansa’s chapter...

Loras Tyrell:

Loras was another crush of Sansa and we learn that he got burned really bad in AFFC.

Like the eagle and Jon.

“Tell me,” said Margaery. “I command it.” Command it? Cersei paused a moment, then decided she would let that pass. “The defenders fell back to an inner keep once the curtain wall was taken. Loras led the attack there as well. He was doused with boiling oil.” Lady Alla turned white as chalk, and ran from the room. “The maesters are doing all they can, Lord Waters assures me, but I fear your brother is too badly burned.”

[AFFC; Cersei VIII]

More about Loras // Jon, please check: Jonsa Book Hints: A8

Let’s keep reading the fifth book...

A DANCE WITH DRAGONS:

In ADWD; Prologue Varamyr encounters with Others (just like AGOT; Prologue) and Varamyr’s body dies, but his mind lives on in his wolf One Eye.

And Varamyr also thinks about Jon and his direwolf..

So we have dead warg who kept living in his animal: A WOLF whose name is ONE EYE.

Varamyr could feel the snowflakes melting on his brow. This is not so bad as burning. Let me sleep and never wake, let me begin my second life. His wolves were close now. He could feel them. He would leave this feeble flesh behind, become one with them, hunting the night and howling at the moon. The warg would become a true wolf. Which, though?

[...]

“They say you forget,” Haggon had told him, a few weeks before his own death. “When the man’s flesh dies, his spirit lives on inside the beast, but every day his memory fades, and the beast becomes a little less a warg, a little more a wolf, until nothing of the man is left and only the beast remains.”

Varamyr knew the truth of that. When he claimed the eagle that had been Orell’s, he could feel the other skinchanger raging at his presence. Orell had been slain by the turncloak crow Jon Snow, and his hate for his killer had been so strong that Varamyr found himself hating the beastling boy as well. He had known what Snow was the moment he saw that great white direwolf stalking silent at his side. One skinchanger can always sense another. Mance should have let me take the direwolf. There would be a second life worthy of a king. He could have done it, he did not doubt. The gift was strong in Snow, but the youth was untaught, still fighting his nature when he should have gloried in it.

[...]

A sleeping direwolf raised his head to snarl at empty air. Before their hearts could beat again he had passed on, searching for his own, for One Eye, Sly, and Stalker, for his pack. His wolves would save him, he told himself. That was his last thought as a man. True death came suddenly; he felt a shock of cold, as if he had been plunged into the icy waters of a frozen lake. Then he found himself rushing over moonlit snows with his packmates close behind him. Half the world was dark. One Eye, he knew. He bayed, and Sly and Stalker gave echo. When they reached the crest the wolves paused.

[...]

The things below moved, but did not live. One by one, they raised their heads toward the three wolves on the hill. The last to look was the thing that had been Thistle. She wore wool and fur and leather, and over that she wore a coat of hoarfrost that crackled when she moved and glistened in the moonlight. Pale pink icicles hung from her fingertips, ten long knives of frozen blood. And in the pits where her eyes had been, a pale blue light was flickering, lending her coarse features an eerie beauty they had never known in life. She sees me.

[ADWD; Prologue]

Jon dies in his last ADWD chapter and his last word was his direwolf’s name: GHOST...

[ADWD; Jon XIII]

So we have a full circle:

It started with Agot; Prologue

and ended with ADWD; Jon XIII

Let’s not forget that Jon’s death was foreshadowed in ASOS; Sansa VI chapter.

Lord Petyr dismissed him with a wave, and returned to the pomegranate again as Oswell shuffled down the steps. “Tell me, Alayne—which is more dangerous, the dagger brandished by an enemy, or the hidden one pressed to your back by someone you never even see?”

“The hidden dagger.”

“There’s a clever girl.” He smiled, his thin lips bright red from the pomegranate seeds.

[ASOS; Sansa VI]

Next chapter was Jon:

Fore more about Jon’s death and Sansa; please check:

Jonsa Book Hints: C12 & E7

“Do not be so certain.” The ruby at Melisandre’s throat gleamed red. “It is not the foes who curse you to your face that you must fear, but those who smile when you are looking and sharpen their knives when you turn your back. You would do well to keep your wolf close beside you. Ice, I see, and daggers in the dark. Blood frozen red and hard, and naked steel. It was very cold.”

“It is always cold on the Wall.”

“You think so?”

“I know so, my lady.”

“Then you know nothing, Jon Snow,” she whispered.

[ADWD; Jon I]

In conclusion:

Jon’s death, him warging into his direwolf during his death and him coming back to life arc has been foreshadowed since AGOT; Prologue and its most obvious hints were given in ADWD; Prologue by echoing AGOT; Prologue.

The ‘ONE EYE’ motif seems like a key hint for his resurrection.

And Sansa is always close to this motif or she has some connections with this motif via other characters or her chapters.

A Sansa Stark being close to another ‘ONE EYE’ Stark is interesting because of the historical couple: Jonnel ‘One Eye’ & Sansa Stark in Stark family tree..

Even the hints of Jon’s death can be found in Sansa chapters.

All of these tell us that Sansa will be important in Jon’s past resurrection story.

Thanks for reading.

Some sources:

Waymar // Jon

Disfigurements

Jonnel / Sansa

Jon’s fate and losing an eye

#jonsa #jon snow #varamyr #orell #jonnel one eye stark #sansa stark #agot #acok #asos #affc #adwd #actually jonsa #jon snow x sansa stark #waymar royce #one eye #meta #mine

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mysticalmuddle · 4 years ago

Note

Sorry if this has been asked before, but what got into asoiaf? Also, did you like Arya and Jonrya from the first read or did that come later? What do you think of Jon as a character? What are your top 10 favourite characters and moments? I aplologise for this avalanche of questions but I just couldn't help wanting to know more of my favourite asoiaf writer. PS: I adore your aesthetic, your blog and writing gives me an otherworldly feeling.

Hey no worries! Ask away <333

but what got you into asoiaf? I’ve always been into quasi-medieval fantasy, and picked up asoiaf a looooooooong time ago, when I was in middle school. It was so engagingly written that it never really left my brain since? That’s like, ten whole years rent free I’ve been thinking about these characters. What recently spurred me into like, engaging with the fandom/writing/etc was the lack of action in the Jonrya tag, and more specifically, the lack of stories updating that I was interested in, so I decided to make my own 😅

Also, did you like Arya and Jonrya from the first read or did that come later? Re: liking Jon and Arya right off the bat--Okay, so when I first read the series, I was Going Through It IRL, and identified a lot with Jon and his storyline? But I was also so not past the age of “girls going on insane dangerous adventures and being brave despite that” being massively appealing and all the Arya chapters were a satisfyingly more adult version of that genre. I’ll say I liked them both from the get-go, and it’s never really died down since, and I just learned over the years and rereads to appreciate more of the characters. (If I’d been a little older on that first read, I probably would have glommed onto Tyrion instead, and my fandom interactions now would be...vastly different 😂😂😂)

I guess I sort of shipped it from the moment I read ADWD. Like, I was super into Jon&Arya before then--that level of devotion is one of my fictional relationship draws--but ADWD really got me into it. There was just something so compelling about how often they think of each other, and how badly they want to be reunited again, in Arya’s chapters especially. But the whole passage with the Pink Letter just Fucked Me Up emotionally, and suddenly I was like, “They should reunite and kiss”. Over the years, my enthusiasm for the ship has increased, as my very old slushpile of unpublished fics can attest.

What do you think of Jon as a character? I think he’s an incredibly complex character, which is my favorite type of character! His struggles in the series against his own desires versus his sense of duty, especially framed in the narrative by popular thoughts about bastards, and how that affected his self esteem--he has to be more honorable, more clever, more dedicated just to make up for a facet of his own existence that he didn’t control and can’t change!--is something I just find so compelling. And, of course, his deeply intense love for Arya always gets me like 😍😍😍😍 I don’t have any huge takes on him though--I’m not a very thinky type person and everything I think about characters seems so hard to articulate unless I’m pouring it out into a fic (so I’m sorry if you wanted Takes! This Bitch Empty!)

What are your top 10 favourite characters?

Arya

Jon

Daenerys

Brienne

Tyrion

Missandei

Oberyn

Bran

Asha

Sansa

What are your top 10 favourite moments? Alright, these are in no particular order of preference, just listened as I remembered/googled exactly what books they took place in

1. When Brienne rescues Willow from the Bloody mummers, despite knowing that they’ll kill her for the attempt, AFFC-Brienne VII. No chance and no choice gives me chills every fucking time

2. When Arya kills Dareon and walks off with his boots, AFFC-Cat of the Canals. This moment has implications and speaks to Arya’s inability to let go of herself, even when all that being a Stark means in that moment is the gruesome work of justice, but I’ll be honest--I just like it because of how nonchalant and almost sassy she is when taking the boots afterwards, and how it speaks to her practicality.

3. When Jon reads the Pink Letter and loses his shit, ADWD-Jon XIII. I want my bride back … I want my bride back … I want my bride back …"I think we had best change the plan," Jon Snow said. Ohohohohhhoo!!! Juuuuust fuck me up GRRM!!

4. When Daenerys has breakfast with Missandei in Mereen and Missandei chides her into eating more, saying Daenerys is very small, ADWD-Daenerys VII. But also every Daenerys & Missandei interaction ever. Every time they speak to each other, you can just tell the level of care they have, and how they see each other as family over time!!!

5. When Arya travels with the Brotherhood Without Banners and gives water to the northern prisoners before watching as Anguy mercy-kills them, ASoS-Arya V. It’s a facet of Arya’s personality that imo, I think is ignored in metas and fics. She considers them her pack, and despite her disappointment in them, and her disgust at their crimes, still gives them water and finds them a quick, merciful death.

6. The dinner with the men of the Nightswatch and the discussion Bran and Robb have afterwards, about riding to the Wall to see Jon, and about whether their family will come back, AGoT-Bran IV This moment, I think, speaks to Robb’s characterization in a way that Catelyn’s POV chapters don’t touch very well. He’s so very young, despite everything, and trying his hardest, and well aware of the dangers his family is in, and how he’s falling short of saving them and there’s nothing he can do about that.

7. Oberyn during Tyrion’s trail by combat, and his arrogance and his rage, ASoS-Tyrion X. His demand that the Mountain say Elia’s name got me tearing up the first time I read it, not realizing what the cost of that justice would be for Oberyn himself. So much of ASoIaF deals with grief, and the consequences of obsessive grief, and this fit into the series so impeccably fucking well

8. Every single thing about Daenerys freeing the slaves at Astapor, ASoS-Daenerys III. One of the things I really didn’t appreciate in the show is how they changed the tone of that scene, very much altering it from Daenerys and her joy that she can do this thing, a balm after the horror she felt seeing the slaves and learning about the brutal training the Unsullied go through, into a moment that was just her being badass and powerful.

"Unsullied!" Dany galloped before them, her silver-gold braid flying behind her, her bell chiming with every stride. "Slay the Good Masters, slay the soldiers, slay every man who wears a tokar or holds a whip, but harm no child under twelve, and strike the chains off every slave you see." She raised the harpy's fingers in the air . . . and then she flung the scourge aside. "Freedom!" she sang out. "Dracarys! Dracarys!" "Dracarys!" they shouted back, the sweetest word she'd ever heard. "Dracarys! Dracarys!" And all around them slavers ran and sobbed and begged and died, and the dusty air was filled with spears and fire. "Dracarys!" they shouted back, the sweetest word she'd ever heard. "Dracarys! Dracarys!" And all around them slavers ran and sobbed and begged and died, and the dusty air was filled with spears and fire."Dracarys!" they shouted back, the sweetest word she'd ever heard. "Dracarys! Dracarys!" And all around them slavers ran and sobbed and begged and died, and the dusty air was filled with spears and fire. [Bold mine] The moment on the show was momentous, but this was-----vastly superior and far more indicative of her character.

9. Catelyn stopping the catspaw from killing Bran, AGoT-Catelyn III. Watching Catelyn emerge from the haze of her grief only to go full fucking ham feral and brutal protecting her child was like *chef’s kiss* There’s just such a cool contrast between her losing her shit talking with Robb a moment before, and then the actual fight, and then her busting out with: "The circumstances did not allow me to examine it closely, but I can vouch for its edge," Catelyn replied with a dry smile. "Why do you ask?"

10. This exchange: Alliser Thorne overheard him. "Lord Snow wants to take my place now." He sneered. "I'd have an easier time teaching a wolf to juggle than you will training this aurochs.""I'll take that wager, Ser Alliser," Jon said. "I'd love to see Ghost juggle." AGoT-Jon III. That’s the moment I knew I stanned Jon Snow irreparably, forever.

PS: I adore your aesthetic, your blog and writing gives me an otherworldly feeling. No u! For real, anon, that’s so fucking sweet of you to say 🥰🥰🥰 Hope I answered everything to your satisfaction, and feel free to come back and chat if the mood strikes ya!

#asks #Anonymous #read more because rip this got long

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trinuviel · 6 years ago

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Was the Stark Ancestral Sword Ice the Original “Lightbringer”?

In a recent interview Nikolaj Coster-Waldau hinted that there might be a deeper meaning to the fact that Jaime Lannister and Brienne Tarth wields Valyrian steel swords made from the Stark ancestral sword Ice.

(The HuffPost)

Ice was a great sword of Valyrian steel that has belonged to House Stark for times immemorial. We see Ned Stark wield it in his capacity as Warden of the North in the very first episode of season 1 and he is decapitated by his own blade in episode 9 of the same season.

In season 4, Tywin Lannister ordered Ice melted down and reforged into two new swords meant for his son Jaime and his grand-son Joffrey Baratheon - so that House Lannister could once again have Valyrian steel (House Lannister lost their Valyrian sword Brightroar in when King Tommen II sailed to the ruins of Valyria).

That was a rather painful moment for fans of House Stark - seeing a symbol of their House appropriated by their enemies. Ice was made into two new swords. Joffrey named his sword Widow’s Wail (because he’s a little shit) but Jaime gave his sword to Brienne of Tarth who named it Oathkeeper.

There’s a beautiful sort of poetic justice to the fact that the remnants of Ned Stark’s sword are going to be wielded in defense of Winterfell and Ned Stark’s children. However, NWC’s words seems to hint that the deeper meaning of these two swords goes beyond the emotional resonance of this. In fact, his words reawakened a theory that has been puttering about at the back of my head for a while: What if Ice was the magical sword of the Lightbringer myth? It may sound like a bit of a reach - and maybe it is - but I have several reasons for thinking that Ice may in fact have been the original Lightbringer.

JAIME’S DREAM

According to the Jade Compendium, Lightbringer burned fiery hot when wielded in battle - it was, in short, a burning sword. Burning swords appear multiple times in ASoIaF as I’ve elaborated on in this essay. One of these times is during a dream that Jaime has in ASoS. When an injured Jaime is being escorted back to King’s Landing, he has a vivid dream whilst sleeping with his head on the stump of a Weirwood tree. In this dream, Jaime wields a burning sword:

“I gave you a sword,” Lord Tywin said. It was at his feet. Jaime groped under the water until his hand closed upon the hilt. Nothing can hurt me so long as I have a sword. As he raised the sword a finger of pale flame flickered at the point and crept up along the edge, stopping a hand’s breath from the hilt. The fire took on the color of the steel itself so it burned with a silvery-blue light, and the gloom pulled back. (ASoS, IV)

Brienne appears in his dream and she, too, is given a sword that takes flame:

Brienne’s sword took flame as well, burning silvery blue. The darkness retreated a little more. […] Brienne moved her longsword back and forth, watching the silvery flames shift and shimmer. Beneath her feet, a reflection of the burning blade shone on the surface of the flat black water. (ASoS, Jaime IV)

What is especially noteworthy here, is the fact that the two swords burn with a silver-blue fire!

This is a significant detail since the prophecy of Azor Ahai come again calls Lightbringer not only a burning sword but the Red Sword of Heroes!

"In ancient books of Asshai it is written that there will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world. In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him." - Melisandre (ACoK, Davos I)

I’ve previously argued (here and here) that the prophecy of Azor Ahai may not be what Melisandre and the audience think it is. It is very possible that GRRM will subject this part of the story to a epic Prophecy Twist - and that the prophecy is not the promise of a saviour but rather a warning.

Now let’s get back to Jaime’s dream. In this context, this dream may foreshadow both he and Brienne will wield Valyrian swords in the Great War - but the fact that the swords burn silver-blue sets them apart from the prophecy of AA coem again. Jaime has this dream before he returns to King’s Landing where Tywin gives him one of the two Valyrian swords that he had made out of Ice, the ancestral sword of House Stark.

Jaime gives this sword to Brienne when he sends her on her mission to find and protect Sansa Stark. He asks her to fullfill the oath he gave to Catelyn Stark and that is why Brienne names her sword Oathkeeper.

The second sword made from Ice was given to Joffrey who named it Widow’s Wail. It is unclear what happened to this sword after Joffrey’s death but it is assumed that it is kept in trust for Tommen until he grows older. Will Jaime eventually wield Widow’s Wail? I find this quite possible given this dream - and since Jaime does indeed wield Widow’s Wail in seasons 7 and 8, the show might just have spoiled this particular plot point.

However, Jaime’s dream might also hint that the two Valyrian swords made from Ice are special in a more magical sense. They burn like Azor Ahai’s magical sword Lightbringer burned, according to the myths and legends. Yet they burn with silver-blue fire as opposed to the red flames of the prophecy of AA come again. Thus, through this dream imagery, the remnants of Ice are connected to Lightbringer on the level of associative logic.

THE LAST HERO

The myth of Azor Ahai and the legend of Lightbringer are stories that have come out of Asshai, on the far end of the world. So could Ice actually be Lightbringer? This is where we have to take a look at the figure of the Last Hero, which is the character who is credited with leading the defense against the Others in Northern lore. The story of the Last Hero goes like this:

How the Long Night came to an end is a matter of legend, as all such matters of the distant past have become. In the North, they tell of a last hero who sought out the intercession of the children of the forest, his companions abandoning him or dying one by one as they faced ravenous giants, cold servants, and the Others themselves. Alone he finally reached the children, despite the efforts of the white walkers, and all the tales agree this was a turning point. Thanks to the children, the first men of the Night’s Watch banded together and were able to fight—and win—the Battle for the Dawn: the last battle that broke the endless winter and sent the Others fleeing to the icy north. Now, six thousand years later (or eight thousand as True History puts forward), the Wall made to defend the realms of men is still manned by the sworn brothers of the Night’s Watch, and neither the Others nor the children have been seen in many centuries.(TWoIaF, Ancient History: The Long Night)

(The Last Hero. Art by Roman Papsuev)

Who was the Last Hero? No one really knows but I’ve argued that you can make a case that the Last Hero was none other than Brandon the Builder, the legendary founder of House Stark, the architect of Winterfell and the Wall as well as the Hightower in Oldtown and Storm’s End, the ancestral seat of House Baratheon. Why do I think that the Last Hero was Brandon the Builder? It was this snippet of text in The World of Ice and Fire, the companion book to the series, that lead to my identification of the Last Hero with Brandon the Builder:

Maester Childer’s Winter’s Kings, or the Legends and Lineages of the Starks of Winterfell contains a part of a ballad alleged to tell of the time Brandon the Builder sought the aid of the children while raising the Wall. He was taken to a secret place to meet with them, but could not at first understand their speech, which was described as sounding like the song of stones in a brook, or the wind through leaves, or the rain upon the water. (tWoIaF)

In the myths of the North, the Last Hero sought the secret cities of the Children of the Forest - and now this piece of information from Maester Childer’s book Winter’s Kings or the Legends and Lineages of the Starks of Winterfell places Brandon the Builder in those self-same hidden cities. That is too much of a coincidence in my humble opinion.

If the Last Hero was indeed Brandon the Builder, founder of House Stark, then how does Ice come into the equation? Interestingly, in ADwD the text reveals another intriguing piece of information:

I found one account of the Long Night that spoke of the last hero slaying Others with a blade of dragonsteel. Supposedly they could not stand against it.” “Dragonsteel?” The term was new to Jon. “Valyrian steel?” (ADwD, Jon II)

Thus, the text hints that the last hero wielded a sword of Valyrian steel and that a weapon of this material could slay a White Walker. This is something that the show confirmed in season 5 when Jon Snow killed a WW with Longclaw, which is made from Valyrian steel.

The question now is this: How did the Last Hero/Brandon the Builder get a Valyrian steel sword before the rise of Old Valyria (the rise of Valyria and the Dragonlords is generally placed after the Long Night in the historical chronology of GRRM’s world). Furthermore, if Ice was the original Lightbringer, then what is the connection between the legend of Lightbringer and Valyrian steel swords?

THE MYTH OF LIGHTBRINGER AS AN ALLEGORY

I have previously written about how the legend of Lightbringer works as a subversion of the trope of the Magic Sword on a meta-textual level. Many readers fail to realize that magic swords already exists in Westeros!

GRRM has specified that Valyrian swords require magic for the forging, which means that every single sword made of Valyrian steel is, in fact, a magic sword!

However, he doesn’t specify what kind of magic is required to make Valyrian steel. Some fans have speculated that dragonfire was necessary to forge Valyrian steel and while I understand the reasoning it doesn’t strike me as particularly practical in its application. Instead, I think that there’s a clue hidden in the companion book in the section on the Free City of Qohor because the smiths of this Essosi city still know the secret to rework Valyrian steel:

The properties of Valyrian steel are well-known, and are the result of both folding iron many times to balance and remove impurities, and the use of spells—or at least arts we do not know—to give unnatural strength to the resulting steel. Those arts are now lost, though the smiths of Qohor claim to still know magics for reworking Valyrian steel without losing its strength or unsurpassed ability to hold an edge. (TWoIaF, Ancient History: Valyria’s Children)

It is a secret jealously guarded:

Maester Pol’s treatise on Qohorik metalworking, written during several years of residence in the Free City, reveals just how jealously the secrets are guarded: He was thrice publicly whipped and cast out from the city for making too many inquiries. The final time, his hand was also removed following the allegation that he stole a Valyrian steel blade. According to Pol, the true reason for his final exile was his discovery of blood sacrifices—including the killing of slaves as young as infants—which the Qohorik smiths used in their efforts to produce a steel to equal that of the Freehold. (TWoIaF, The Free Cities: Qohor)

This is an interesting story though it should be taken with a grain of salt, especially since Ice was reforged in King’s Landing by Tobho Mott:

Tobho had learned to work Valyrian steel at the forges of Qohor as a boy. Only a man who knew the spells could take old weapons and forge them anew. (AGoT, Eddard IV)

Mott, however, used magic when he reforged the ancestral Stark great sword Ice into two new Valyrian swords for House Lannister :

But Valyrian steel is stubborn. These old swords remember, it is said, and they do not change easily. I worked half a hundred spells and brightened the red time and time again, but always the color would darken, as if the blade was drinking the sun from it.(Tobho Mott to Tyrion Lannister, ASoS, Tyrion IV)

Whilst Mott was trained in Qohor, I seriously doubt that he could get away with killing someone unnoticed. However, it is possible that some kind of blood magic is involved in reworking Valyrian steel. Blood magic doesn’t have to involve murder as Melisandre demonstrates with the use of blood fattened leeches.

This brings us back to the myth of Lightbringer, which is the story of how Azor Ahai forges a sword in the holy fires of a temple and then quences it in the heart’s blood of his faithful wife Nissa Nissa:

A hundred days and a hundred nights he labored on the third blade and as it glowed white hot in the sacred fires, he summoned his wife. ‘Nissa Nissa,’ he said to her, for that was her name, ‘bare your breast, and know that I love you best of all that is in this world. She did this thing, why I cannot say, and Azor Ahai thrust the smoking sword through her living heart. It is said that her cry of anguish and ecstasy left a crack across the face of the moon, but her blood and her soul and her strength and her courage all went into the steel. Such is the tale of the forging of Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes.” - Salladhor Saan to Davos Seaworth (ACoK, Davos I)

(Azor Ahai and Nissa Nissa. The Forging of Lightbringer. Art by Amok)

The role of myth is a recurring theme in ASoIaF. GRRM plays with the idea that ancient myths contain a kernel of truth, a truth that has been distorted over millennia of retellings. A lot of fans seems to think that the myth of Lightbringer functions as a kind of recipe to create an extra-special magical sword. However, while myths contains kernels of truth in GRRM’s universe, they are not necessarily to be read in a literal manner. I don’t think that a prophesied hero will have to kill a loved one to make a magical weapon. I suspect that the myth of Lightbringer is to be read allegorically rather than literally.

The myth of Lightbringer tells us two things about the creation of this magical blade:

There is smith craft involved - “Azor Ahai labored sleepless in the temple, forging a blade in the sacred fires.” (ACoK, Davos I)

A blood sacrifice is involved - “Azor Ahai thrust the smoking sword through her living heart. It is said that her cry of anguish and ecstasy left a crack across the face of the moon, but her blood and her soul and her strength and her courage all went into the steel.”

This actually dovetails nicely with what GRRM himself has said about the making of Valyrian steel:

Q: A brief question about Valyrian steel - is it the metal that makes the sword so special (provenance, age, etc), or is it the forging (spells, techniques)

GRRM: Forging techniques and spells, actually. There is magic involved in the making of Valyrian steel. (x)

If we read the myth of Lightbringer allegorically then the sacrifice of Nissa Nissa signifies what type of magic was used in the creation of Valyrian steel, i.e. blood magic.

Let’s get back to the the legend of the Last Hero. As said, Sam discovers an ancient text in the library at Castle Black that states that the Last Hero slew a White Walker with dragonsteel, i.e. a Valyrian sword. In this context, it is worth noting that in Old Nan’s retelling of the story, it is specifically mentioned that the Last Hero loses his sword during his quest:

He set out into the dead lands with a sword, a horse, a dog, and a dozen companions. For years he searched, until he despaired of ever finding the children of the forest in their secret cities. One by one his friends died, and his horse, and finally even his dog, and his sword froze so hard the blade snapped when he tried to use it. (AGoT, Bran I)

A frozen blade shattering in the cold sounds a lot like what happened to Ser Waymar Royce when he duels with a White Walker in the prologue of AGoT:

His blade was white with frost; the Other's danced with pale blue light.

...

Ser Waymar Royce found his fury. "For Robert!" he shouted, and he came up snarling, lifting the frost-covered longsword with both hands and swinging it around in a flat sidearm slash with all his weight behind it. The Other's parry was almost lazy.

When the blades touched, the steel shattered.

A scream echoed through the forest night, and the longsword shivered into a hundred brittle pieces, the shards scattering like a rain of needles. (AGoT, Prologue)

The Others bring a cold so intense that it shatters steel swords. Only a magical blade might stand a chance against their ice swords.

If the Last hero was indeed Brandon Stark, and if he did indeed wield a blade made of Valyrian steel, then it is most likely that this sword was Ice, the ancestral blade of the House he founded. If this is indeed the case, the its very name, Ice, could obliquely refer to the fact that it was used to kill a being that was essentially “Ice Made Flesh” (I’ve argued elsewhere that the text implicitly depicts the Others as beings of embodied ice).

THE HIGHTOWER

Let’s just assume that Ice was indeed the dragonsteel blade that the Last Hero (Brandon the Builder) wielded against the Others. The question remains: how did he get his hands on a blade of Valyrian steel when the Valyrian Freehold did not yet exist? In this context, it is worth noting that the myth of Lightbringer and the prophecy of Azor Ahai come again appear to originate in Asshai and not in Valyria. Maybe the secret to forge Valyrian steel wasn’t actually discovered in the Valyrian freehold but in Asshai? This is where this essay gets even more speculative.

In this section, I’ll be drawing on a four part theory that the user u/sangeli published on reddit a few years ago (Part 1, Part 2, Part 3, Part 4). The gist of this theory revolves around the hypothesis that the Valyrian Dragonlords weren’t native to the Valyrian peninsula but that they were the descendants of the Great Empire of the Dawn, which u/sangeli locates in Asshai. The chaos of the Long Night cause an Asshai’i diaspora (possibly because Asshai was ground zero of some kind of magical catastrophe that rendered the place sterile, which I’ve written about elsewhere). One of the places where the Asshai settled was the Valyrian peninsula and the companion book does offer some weight to this argument:

In Asshai, the tales are many and confused, but certain texts—all impossibly ancient—claim that dragons first came from the Shadow, a place where all of our learning fails us. These Asshai'i histories say that a people so ancient they had no name first tamed dragons in the Shadow and brought them to Valyria, teaching the Valyrians their arts before departing from the annals. (TWoIaF, Ancient History: The Rise of Valyria)

However, u/sangeli goes further and theorizes that some of the Asshai’i also settled in Westeros, more specifically in the location that is now known as Oldtown. It is one of the oldest, perhaps even the oldest of the cities of Westeros and its origins is lost in the mists of time. That doesn’t necessarily mean that it was founded by an Asshai’i disapora but u/sangeli presents the mysterious structure of fused black stone that constitutes the foundation of the Hightower as a piece of evidence for their theory:

Yet mysteries remain. The stony island where the Hightower stands is known as Battle Isle even in our oldest records, but why? What battle was fought there? When? Between which lords, which kings, which races? Even the singers are largely silent on these matters.

Even more enigmatic to scholars and historians is the great square fortress of black stone that dominates that isle. For most of recorded history, this monumental edifice has served as the foundation and lowest level of the Hightower, yet we know for a certainty that it predates the upper levels of the tower by thousands of years.

Who built it? When? Why? Most maesters accept the common wisdom that declares it to be of Valyrian construction, for its massive walls and labyrinthine interiors are all of solid rock, with no hint of joins or mortar, no chisel marks of any kind, a type of construction that is seen elsewhere, most notably in the dragonroads of the Freehold of Valyria, and the Black Walls that protect the heart of Old Volantis. The dragonlords of Valryia, as is well-known, possessed the art of turning stone to liquid with dragonflame, shaping it as they would, then fusing it harder than iron, steel, or granite. (AWoIaF, The Reach: Oldtown)

The base on which the Hightower rests is made from fused black stone in an unknown technique the is eerily reminiscent of the magical arts of Valyria. Yet the architectural style of this edifice shares no similarities with the architecture of Old Valyria:

The fused black stone of which it is made suggests Valyria, but the plain, unadorned style of architecture does not, for the dragonlords loved little more than twisting stone into strange, fanciful, and ornate shapes. Within, the narrow, twisting, windowless passages strike many as being tunnels rather than halls; it is very easy to get lost amongst their turnings. Mayhaps this is no more than a defensive measure designed to confound attackers, but it too is singularly un-Valyrian. (TWoIaF, The Reach: Oldtown)

I must admit that with evidence like this, I do find u/sangeli’s theory that the Hightower was founded by an Asshai’i disapora both interesting and convincing. As do I find their claim that House Hightower may indeed descend from these people, especially since the companion book also raises the issue of the origins of House Hightower:

The reasons for the abandonment of the fortress and the fate of its builders, whoever they might have been, are likewise lost to us, but at some point we know that Battle Isle and its great stronghold came into the possession of the ancestors of House Hightower. Were they First Men, as most scholars believe today? Or did they mayhaps descend from the seafarers and traders who had settled at the top of Whispering Sound in earlier epochs, the men who came before the First Men? We cannot know. (TWoIaF, The Reach: Oldtown)

The reason I bring up the Hightower in relation to the Last Hero and the secret of Valyrian steel, is because Brandon the Builder had a connection to the Hightower as the purported architect of its upper levels. Furthermore, the Hightower is associated with the Night’s Watch through the image of the Lighthouse as a positive image of fire - a beacon in the darkness, which I’ve written about elsewhere.

(Left: Hightower in Oldtown. Art by Ted Nasmith, Right: Sigil and Motto of House Hightower)

If we accept that there’s usually a kernel of truth in the myths and legends within GRRM’s fictional universe, then we may speculate that Brandon the Builder did indeed visit Oldtown and the mysterious fortress that forms the base of the Hightower. If u/sangeli is correct in their theory, then the people who inhabited this mysterious structure of fused black stone may have been Asshai’i refugees from the GEotD - and they may have known the secret of forging dragonsteel steel. The Hightower may indeed have been the place where Ice was forged.

All of this is, of course, highly speculative, if the Last Hero did indeed wield a blade made of Valyrian steel before the Valyrian Freehold existed, then I haven’t come across another theory as to why he would have had such a blade.

(GIFs not mine)

#asoiaf #a song of ice and fire #game of throne #lightbringer #ice #valyrian steel #azor ahai #the last hero #oldtown #the hightower #asoiafmeta #asoiaf meta #gotmeta #got meta

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stillness-in-green · 5 years ago

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Changeling: The League (3/3)

Bonus Miscellanea! A sampler round of various other villains and some AU-of-the-AU versions of the story and characters, including some alternate takes on characters using other game lines from the World of Darkness.

This post is the last one I have in mind for the concept, but I hope everyone who was curious enough to read them enjoyed them. There’s some fun stuff in this post in particular, I think--the Word of Darkness really is a very versatile setting. Find the explanations and the League of Villains here, the follow-up with the Meta Liberation Army here, or just hit the jump for the bonus material.

THE MINIONS

All for One’s direct loyalists and followers. All are dual-kithed or otherwise eyebrow-raising in kith/seeming combination, and all have a high enough Wyrd that their kith abilities are starting to evolve--serving AFO does have its benefits. With AFO imprisoned back in Faerie and the cycle stalled out, AFO’s followers are finding themselves facing an unclear future, and so each is having to come up with what they want to do going forward. Mostly want Tomura to come back and get things moving again, having little sense that there is a world out there that’s more “real” than the one they currently inhabit.

Kurogiri

Type: Palewraith Darkling, Chatelaine dual kith. Once a caretaker for Tomura, he opts to find Tomura out in the real world in hopes of resuming that directive. When Tomura does not show even a shred of recognition, Kurogiri opts to set up a bar in the local Hedge, making himself “available.”

Mantle: Winter, season of secrecy. Has a servant’s circumspectness with a loyalist’s desire to keep his secrets, as well as a deep, very old melancholy that even he doesn’t really remember the reason for anymore.

Contracts: Fleeting Winter I, Sorrow-Frozen Winter I-III, Dream I-V, and Smoke I-IV. For Smoke, he has the old 4-dot Smoke-stepping clause rather than the more modern Murkblur, which is something of a tell regarding his true age.

Ujiko

Type: Chirurgeon Darkling, which shouldn’t actually be possible by the categorizations as the fae understand them. He’s been in AFO’s hands for a long time, though. Current fear: what’s going to happen to the realm if the cycle continues to stall? Gears can only grind against one another for so long before something explodes!

Mantle: Autumn. A mad scientist with a deep appreciation for breaking things open to find out how they tick.

Contracts: Artifice I-III, Shade & Spirit I-IV, Spellbound Autumn I-III, and Goblin Delayed Harm III.

Gigantomachia

Type: Stonebones Elemental, Gargantuan dual kith. AFO’s most loyal monster. Would have tried to find Shigaraki sooner, but he’s far too removed from the human he once was to be able to find his way through the Hedge without aid. Probably spends the first few parts of the story giving All Might trouble in Faerie.

Mantle: Courtless. Has no emotional affinities that don’t track back to All for One.

Contracts: Oath & Punishment I-V, Communion (Earth) I-III, and Stone I-V. Like Geten, a close replica of his canonical powerset.

OTHER VILLAINS

Muscular: Bloodbrute Ogre. Ex-gladiator; current terror.

Moonfish: Gristlegrinder Ogre. Current cannibal; also current terror.

Mustard: Blightbent Elemental. Looks cuter because he doesn’t have to wear the gas-mask to protect against his own fumes.

Stain: Razorhand Darkling, give or take a Pischacha dual kith. Broken very deeply by Arcadia from the strict and upright man he once was, but Lost society was pretty much created to provide a safe haven for that kind of damage. A Summer Court enforcer of some notoriety.

Gentle Criminal: Windwing Beast. Refuses to be ground-bound, and is posting videos of himself doing impossible stunts that are drawing some attention, for better or for worse.

La Brava: Drudge Wizened. Falls in love with Gentle for showing her that you don’t have to shrink into what other people tried to make of you. Has absolutely dyed her hair bright pink. Somehow amazing at stealth anyway.

Gag Inclusion That Makes No Sense With the Lore But Is Perfect Anyway So I’m Not Changing It:

Overhaul: “Don’t be ridiculous. There’s no such thing as magic.”

A banality-riddled Dauntain, from the previous incarnation of the game. This is how Magne survives--he doesn’t kill her, but rather nukes her glamour reserves/Wyrd score access so badly she has to spend the next three months in the motley’s Hollow living in as much fae decadence as they can afford her, dining on hedgefruit, pampering herself, and keeping up with her various dream pledges while she recovers.

ALTERNATE UNIVERSES, ALTERNATE TAKES

Hero Court, Villain Court: There is a version of the story where Heroes and Villains are old labels from a time when the freehold was built around a now-collapsed Sun Court/Moon Court dichotomy, headed up by All Might and All for One. In the days following the catastrophic last battle, changelings of the Hero Court and the Villain Court alike have begun picking up the pieces and realigned to what everyone hopes will be a more stable Seasonal Court model. Endeavor is the Summer King, a changeling who somehow had four three children when it’s all but unheard of to have even one.

Final Boss Shigaraki: There is a version of the story that centers on Deku, and in that version, what Shigaraki learns is this: everyone and everything has an end waiting for them somewhere. As the game story progresses through power creep and mounting stakes, dramatic revelations and shifting priorities, Shigaraki moves away from Autumn and becomes more attuned to the fatalistic but liberating philosophy of Dusk. As such, he gains the Entropy Contract clauses, I-V. In this fashion, Shigaraki is paralleled by Final Battle Deku, rising champion of the Dawn, who is likewise gaining mastery of the Contract of Shonen Protag Powers Potential. Will they be enemies in the end? Allies? Either way, their fates are connected.

Changeling All for One: There is a version of the story in which All Might and All for One are both changelings, in which the entirety of My Hero Academia is a story being played out in some far realm of Faerie. All for One here is not Shigaraki’s Keeper, but merely a mentor who, when expy!Kamino happens, takes the opportunity to get Shigaraki out, knowing that he himself has been gone from the world for far too long to ever make the return trip through the Thorns intact. In this version, All Might is an unknowing Loyalist who follows Shigaraki out, determined to capture him “for the good of society”--which would, of course, entail dragging him back to Faerie.

Destro the Revolutionary: There is a version of the story in which Desto is not one of the Gentry, but rather a changeling from years past, one who was spearheading a huge movement advocating that the Lost should reveal themselves to human society writ large--that Faerie predation could never be stopped as long as humanity didn’t know about it, and changelings had the power to, well, change that. And weren't they tired of living in hiding; didn't they wish they could tell their loved ones the truth? And that was a message that a lot of changelings liked, but it was also a message that terrified changelings in equal measure, and so in the end, an operative/operation from the Seasonal Court freehold put Destro down.

In that take, Re-Destro is a successor to Destro as someone who came out of a similar durance and the MLA is a group planning a retributive war against the Seasonal Courts for their perfidy. Shigaraki and the League could either stumble across the plot or be actively approached as a potentially sympathetic party after Shigaraki's relationship to AFO comes out and endangers his position in his own freehold.

Re-Destro the Prince: There is a version of the story in which Re-Destro is not a changeling at all, but rather a vampiric prince, heir to a forbidden blood discipline. He and his followers catch wind of the League motley: not vampires, but not normal humans, either. They seek the motley out to find out what their deal is and whether it will be a complication to the MLA’s plans. Vampires are far more immediately dangerous than changelings, but changelings have so many wonderful little tricks up their sleeve, especially against people who are careless with their battle banter. (But I’ll be real, I hardly know a thing about Vampire: The Requiem--I’m much more familiar with Masquerade. This version of the story mostly exists because I’m a Shigaraki/Re-Destro shipper and I am not immune to adventures in sexy blooddrinking.)

THE WIDE WORLD OF DARKNESS

There are many other spins one could put on various MHA characters that would be fun to explore. I kept all the relevant characters fae (or Fae) because if I started thinking about all the things the characters could be, I would actually never stop--and anyway, I’m more familiar with Old World of Darkness meta than I am New World of Darkness. A lot of the ideas were still fun, though, so for your perusal, here are some of the ones I came up with:

The Shie Hassaikai is an extremist Hunter cell dedicated to weeding out supernatural creatures of all sorts.

Ujiko is a wildly amoral retired Hunter running a mad scientist lab funded by dubiously sourced money from his fae patron, as long as he’s spending a requisite amount of time per month working on AFO’s projects.

There exists a Sin-Eater and his resident Geist who have become so tangled in each other that they no longer retain separate identities, and are now merely “Kurogiri.”

Kurogiri is a changeling. Yamada Hizashi is a Sin Eater. Aizawa Shouta is a Hunter, and he and Hizashi both are trying to dig up information on what happened to Shirakumo Oboro, but neither one of them is anywhere near getting at the truth of the matter. (This one might actually be true for the purposes of the main Changeling!AU story.)

Midoriya Izuru is a mortal taking his first, faltering steps into the great wide world. He’s had no durance, no first change, no sire, no awakening--he’s just a young man who stumbles across a secret and has to decide what to do with it.

#bnha #kurogiri #ujiko #gigantomachia #bnha stain #bnha overhaul #gentle criminal #la brava #vanguard action squad #changeling: the league #changeling: the lost #world of darkness #my writing

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jcmorgenstern · 5 years ago

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@superohclair oh god okay please know these are all just incoherent ramblings so like, idk, please feel free to add on or ignore me if im just wildly off base but this is a bad summary of what ive been thinking about and also my first titans/batman meta?? (also, hi!)

okay so for the disclaimer round: I am not an actual cultural studies major, nor do I have an extensive background in looking at the police/military industrial complex in media. also my comics knowledge is pretty shaky and im a big noob(I recently got into titans, and before that was pretty ignorant of the dceu besides batman) so I’ll kind of focus in on the show and stuff im more familiar with and apologize in advance?. basically im just a semi-educated idiot with Opinions, anyone with more knowledge/expertise please jump in! this is literally just the bullshit I spat out incoherently off the top of my head. did i mention im a comics noob? because im a comics noob.

so on a general level, I think we can all agree that batman as a cultural force is somewhat on the conservative side, if not simply due to its age and commercial positioning in American culture. there are a lot of challenges and nuances to that and it’s definitely expanding and changing as DC tries to position itself in the way that will...make the most money, but all you have to do is take a gander through the different iterations of the stories in the comics and it’ll smack you in the fucking face. like compare the first iteration of Jason keeping kids out of drugs to the titans version and you’ve got to at least chuckle. at the end of the day, this is a story about a (white male) billionaire who fights crime.

to be fair, I’d argue the romanticization of the police isn’t as aggressive as it could be—they are most often presented as corrupt and incompetent. However, considering the main cop characters depicted like Jim Gordon, the guys in Gotham (it’s been a while since I saw it, sorry) are often the romanticized “good few” (and often or almost always white cis/het men), that’s on pretty shaky ground. I don’t have the background in the comics strong enough to make specific arguments, so I’ll cede the point to someone who does and disagrees, but having recently watched a show that deals excellently with police incompetence, racism, and brutality (7 Seconds on Netflix), I feel at the very least something is deeply missing. like, analysis of race wrt police brutality in any aspect at all whatsoever.

I think it can be compellingly read that batman does heavily play into the military/police industrial complex due to its takes on violence—just play the Arkham games for more than an hour and you’ll know what I mean. to be a little less vague, even though batman as a franchise valorizes “psychiatric treatment” and “nonviolence,” the entire game seems pretty aware it characterizes treatment as a madhouse and nonviolence as breaking someone’s back or neck magically without killing them because you’re a “good guy.” while it is definitely subversive that the franchise even considers these elements at all, they don’t always do a fantastic job living up to them.

and then when you consider the fetishization of tools of violence both in canon and in the fandom, it gets worse. same with prisons—if anything it dehumanizes people in prisons even more than like, cop shows in general, which is pretty impressive(ly bad). like there’s just no nuance afforded and arkham is generally glamorized. the fact that one of the inmates is a crocodile assassin, I will admit, does not help. im not really sure how to mitigate that when, again, one of the inmates is a crocodile assassin, but I think my point still stands. fuck you, killer croc. (im just kidding unfuck him or whatever)

not to take this on a Jason Todd tangent but I was thinking about it this afternoon and again when thinking about that cop scene again and in many ways he does serve as a challenge to both batman’s ideology as well as the ideology of the franchise in general. his depiction is always a bit of a sticking point and it’s always fascinating to me to see how any given adaptation handles it. like Jason’s “”street”” origin has become inseparable from his characterization as an angry, brash, violent kid, and that in itself reflects a whole host of cultural stereotypes that I might argue occasionally/often dip into racialized tropes (like just imagine if he wasn’t white, ok). red hood (a play on robin hood and the outlaws, as I just realized...today) is in my exposure/experience mostly depicted as a villain, but he challenges batman’s no-kill philosophy both on an ethical and practical level. every time the joker escapes he kills a whole score more of innocent people, let alone the other rogues—is it truly ethical to let him live or avoid killing him for the cost of one life and let others die?

moreover, batman’s ““blind”” faith in the justice system (prisons, publicly-funded asylum prisons, courts) is conveniently elided—the story usually ends when he drops bad guy of the day off at arkham or ties up the bad guys and lets the police come etc etc. part of this is obviously bc car chases are more cinematic than dry court procedurals, but there is an alternate universe where bruce wayne never becomes batman and instead advocates for the arkham warden to be replaced with someone competent and the system overhauled, or in programs encouraging a more diverse and educated police force, or even into social welfare programs. (I am vaguely aware this is sometimes/often part of canon, but I don’t think it’s fair to say it’s the main focus. and again, I get it’s not nearly as cinematic).

overall, I think the most frustrating thing about the batman franchise or at least what I’ve seen or read of it is that while it does attempt to deal with corruption and injustice at all levels of the criminal justice system/government, it does so either by treating it as “just how life is” or having Dick or Jim Gordon or whoever the fuckjust wipe it out by “eliminating the dirty cops,” completely ignoring the non-fantasy ways these problems are dealt with in real life. it just isn’t realistic. instead of putting restrictions on police violence or educating cops on how to use their weapons or putting work into eradicating the culture of racism and prejudice or god basically anything it’s just all cinematized into the “good few” triumphing over the bad...somehow. its always unsatisfying and ultimately feels like lip service to me, personally.

this also dovetails with the very frustrating way mental health/”insanity” or “madness” is dealt with in canon, very typical of mainstream fiction. like for example:“madness is like gravity, all it takes is a little push.” yikes, if by ‘push’ you mean significant life stressors, genetic load, and environemntal influences, then sure. challenge any dudebro joker fanboy to explain exactly what combination of DSM disorders the joker has to explain his “””insanity””” and see what happens. (these are, in fact, my plans for this Friday evening. im a hit at parties).

anyway I do really want to wax poetic about that cop scene in 1x06 so im gonna do just that! honestly when I first saw that I immediately sat up like I’d sat on a fucking tack, my cultural studies senses were tingling. the whole “fuck batman” ethos of the show had already been interesting to me, esp in s1, when bruce was basically standing in for the baby boomers and dick being our millennial/GenX hero. I do think dick was explicitly intended to appeal to a millennial audience and embody the millennial ethos. By that logic, the tension between dick and Jason immediately struck me as allegorical (Jason constantly commenting on dick being old, outdated, using slang dick doesn’t understand and generally being full of youthful obnoxious fistbumping energy).

Even if subconsciously on the part of the writers, jason’s over-aggressive energy can be read as a commentary on genZ—seen by mainstream millennial/GenX audiences as taking things too far. Like, the cops in 1x06 could have been Nick Zucco’s hired men or idk pretty much anyone, yet they explicitly chose cops and even had Jason explain why he deliberately went after them for being cops so dick (cop) could judge him for it. his rationale? he was beaten up by cops on the street, so he’s returning the favor. he doesn’t have the focused “righteous” rage of batman or dick/nightwing towards valid targets, he just has rage at the world and specifically the system—framed here as unacceptable or fanatical. as if like, dressing up like a bat and punching people at night is, um, totally normal and uncontroversial.

on a slightly wider scope, the show seems to internally struggle with its own progressive ethos—on the one hand, they hire the wildly talented chellah man, but on the other hand they will likely kill him off soon. or they cast anna diop, drawing wrath from the loudly racist underbelly of fandom, but sideline her. perhaps it’s a genuine struggle, perhaps they simply don’t want to alienate the bigots in the fanbase, but the issue of cops stuck out to me when I was watching as an social issue where they explicitly came down on one side over the other. jason’s characterization is, I admit and appreciate, still nuanced, but I’d argue that’s literally just bc he’s a white guy and a fan favorite. cast an actor of color as Jason and see how fast fandom and the writer’s room turns on him.

anyway i don’t really have the place to speak about what an explicitly nonwhite!cop!dick grayson would look like, but I do think it would be a fascinating and exciting place to start in exploring and correcting the kind of vague and nebulous complaints i raise above. (edit: i should have made more clear, i mean in the show, which hasn’t dealt with dick’s heritage afaik). also, there’s something to be said about the cop vs detective thing but I don’t really have the brain juice or expertise to say it? anyway if you got this far i hope it was at least interesting and again pls jump in id love to hear other people’s takes!!

tldr i took two (2) cultural studies classes and have Opinions

#wow this was a hot fucking mess #i tried to be organized but my thoughts weren't coming out super well #again anyone interested please feel free to jump in or correct me at any place you feel like #i die on the ''jason todd would be treated horribly by fandom if he were a character of color' hill tho #i could go on about 1x06 until im blue in the face but that's the uhh overview. the executive summary.#dc titans #i need meta tags and shit for this show #god help me in too deep #finding the meta side of fandom was a GIFT tho i love this shit #so excited

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jasperlion · 6 years ago

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Peace and War — very much based on dialogue/meta

Alm has an interesting view upon war, peace and all of their portents, although most is likely based on how Mycen raised him, more of soldier and leader (empathically/charismatically/but specifically a military one, being a general himself before his discharge) than anything else.

Of the following conversation I’ll highlight the important points on this, since I don’t want to lose the context of said conversation for the sake of what I want to talk about (since it’s important to the topic, too).

Alm: Look, I’ve heard from the others. I know the drought’s made Zofia a scary place. People are starving, and many have turned to thievery and plunder. Brigands loot villages for a mere sack of grain, and soon they’ll be at OUR door! And don’t think I haven’t heard what the Rigelian army has been up to. They’ve been crossing the border for years in violation of the Divine Accord. And with that sacred bond broken, now the Terrors have resurfaced as well… Mycen: …All true. Alm: Zofia is full of innocent people who are looking for help. Please, Grandfather. I want to make a difference in a world bigger than a handful of houses. I want to see all the amazing places you’ve told me about— that Celica told me about! Mycen: Suppose you do set forth with your sword and your wits. So what? Alm: …… Mycen: Will the grand story of your life be how you met the end of a brigand’s axe? Before you dream of changing the world, learn your damned place in it. And no more talk of leaving. -Mycen leaves- Alm: …What’s his problem?! Why teach me to use a sword if you’re not going to let me fight? Every day in this place is exactly the same as the next. I know I’m meant for more than this! But you have to let me find it!

Alm: Lukas! Were you able to speak with my grandfather? What did he say? Lukas: He said no. Sir Mycen made it clear he has no intention of joining the Deliverance. Alm: What? But he’s ridiculously strong! He could defeat some stuffy chancellor with his eyes closed! Why would he refuse when so many people are suffering? Lukas: I cannot speak to Sir Mycen’s thinking, but it seems we misplaced our hopes. I’ll have to return to our hideout and bring Sir Clive the ill news. Perhaps Mycen has simply grown too old for the battlefield.

Alm: I’m just saying we could do it together. …Fighting, I mean. Not the lance. Grandfather trained all of us, right? Not just me. You already know how to use a sword and a bow. So what’s the problem?

Alm: What? They’ve taken a prisoner?! Lukas: Alm? Let’s just be calm and… Alm?! Alm, wait, don’t — Alm: Hold it, you lecherous pigs! Brigand: Huh? Who the hell are you? Alm: Release the woman you’re holding at once, or else

Battle has always been a solution for Alm, but not in the way of savagery or wanting to subjugate, as much as it is to defend. All of his focus on the problems are what he can stop with his physical strength to protect innocents who are suffering. He is not beyond killing those who attack others to meet his goals, but he’s also not beyond parley and seeking from his opponents a more peaceful solution (provided they aren’t already doing something dastardly, like looting, attacking people, kidnapping them, etc). All in all, those are the views of someone growing up under a general, views necessary for someone whom his father and surrogate grandfather both intended to go to war in the first place and fight.

Even so, despite his willingness to draw the blade, he’s not willing to kill on sight (usually) unless weapons are already drawn. He’s rather compassionate to a fault, which stops him from attacking others without question even when he jumps to the wrong conclusion, not unless he has seen them do shit with his own two eyes (that’s pretty much how you strike the match to his temper and killing intent fhkJDKHD).

Alm: Don’t blame yourself, Lukas. Sir Clive sent you to Ram Village. right? You didn’t have a choice. If blame lies with anyone, it’s him. Lukas: …… Alm: Regardless, standing here accomplishes nothing. We need a plan. I assume this Clair person is still alive, right? In that case, we just have to take back the Southern Outpost and save her!

Really, his solutions always involve getting in a scuffle to save someone when he knows they were both wronged and are in trouble. And he jumps to conclusions and is quick to pin blame.

Of note is that instead of ordering a chase of Desaix and the Rigelian detachment with him, he instead decides to stay within the castle. He does this again after Berkut’s mirror smash, ordering his men rest instead of give chase to the fleeing Rigelians. Alm may be focused on battle as a means to an end, but he’s not at all for eliminating all who stood in his path or destroying them. (Gaiden Alm would say different here, lfmao)

It can be a little confusing when Alm has always been about compromise when there’s a misunderstanding — surely the whole thing makes him butt heads with himself... and it does! His argument with Celica is one of the biggest demonstrations of this, but there’s another thing I want to touch first.

Silque: Sir Alm, what did you see? Alm: It was… It was so clear! Silque, it was horrible! Silque: Be calm. What you saw in the vision is not the present. The Mother is either telling you what could be…or what once was. Her power is sight. Alm: So the vision is something that’s going to happen? Silque: Something that COULD happen. If the vision was ill-boding, perhaps it was a sign— a sign that the Mother wishes for you to take action in order to prevent it. Alm: ……

Alm’s reasons to continue pressing forward with the war despite Celica’s pleas is both his will to make a difference and the fact that he was called to do it. Mila sent him a vision that if things continue and he does nothing, all of Zofia will die. Her vision sets him directly at odds with Celica, who recieves one that should Alm continue on his path, he will die (and everyone he loves will die on his way to get there).

They are directly contrasting visions, albeit Celica’s was likely a warning to get her off the island before the Cantor arrived and likely killed everyone at the priory (you know the one, the one on the lonely boat who implies he was on his way for her). Anyway, this isn’t about that, so fast forward to the argument itself with this in mind: His feeling of duty to see the war through was to save lives, but his focus was not to invade Rigel, merely push them all the way back.

Alm: …Wow. That’s quite the story. I’m trying to picture you swashbuckling pirates, and… Yeah. Just…wow. Celica: I didn’t mean to swashbuckle anyone. It just sort of…happened. But forget all that for the moment. Alm, you aren’t REALLY planning to fight the Rigelian Empire, are you? Alm: Listen, it’s not… It’s not something I chose. They were the ones who attacked us. Celica: But there must be a way to resolve things other than bloodshed, no? Alm: That’s a pretty thought, Celica, but I’m not sure it’s true. If it were, no one would be risking life and limb on the battlefield. Celica: Is it really so naive? Zofians and Rigelians are both people of Valentia, are we not? I know we can reach some kind of accord if we just try! Besides that, I… I just can’t imagine Emperor Rudolf is the monster some claim him to be. Alm: It doesn’t matter what sort of man he is. The Rigelian Empire chose to cross Zofia’s border—that’s a fact. We aim to drive back the invaders. Nothing more. Celica: But why do YOU have to lead this rebellion? Mycen’s grandson or no, you’re neither knight nor noble. So why make yourself a target like this?! Alm: Nrgh… If I didn’t know any better, I’d swear I was speaking to a blue blood. My station doesn’t matter, Celica. I’m here because I was called. I have a duty to perform, and I’ll perform it. No more, and no less. Celica: Oh, Alm… Alm: Do you think I WANTED this fight? This all started because Lima IV went and angered the empire. If you wish to point fingers, point them at the ruler who failed his people. It’s his fault we’re in this mess. Celica: That’s not… Well, so what if it is? Maybe you should go become king if it’s such a damnably easy job! Alm: What? Celica, that’s not— Celica: You’re awfully free with accusations for a boy with no idea what royalty entails! And now that you’re a “hero,” I imagine the throne is next on the list, is that it? Alm: No, it’s not like that at all, Celica! I just want to keep Zofia SAFE! Besides, there’s an heir. A princess of the royal family may have survived. If she turned up and fixed all this, I’d happily return to Ram. You could…come with me, you know? It’d be like old times.

Hoooo, other than Alm and Celica here fanning flames (flames Alm didn’t even know existed, and flames Celica did not realize were alight at all due to Alm’s previous confrontations with nobles (notably Fernand)) this shows a lot of Alm’s thinking.

While he’s very gung ho and willing to fight for a cause, and even kill for it, he’s not alright with it having to be the solution (even if he’s okay with using it as a solution). Basically, it’s the only way he knows he can help with the problem, and he is fine with doing it, but he’s not fine with having to do it. If there are other options, he’d take them. That’s the biggest takeaway, really, since he doesn’t just speak those thoughts, but acts upon them. Jumping right to the start of Act 4 now...

Alm: …… Clive: A word, Alm? Alm: Clive! Did we receive a reply to our petition? Clive: Unfortunately, no. The empire’s silence is likely its answer. I believe it wise to resign ourselves. Emperor Rudolf has no intention of treating for peace. He means to continue his march on Zofian soil. Alm: Damn… Clive: Our men are approaching their limit. And Rigel’s climate is far colder than what they knew in Zofia. Further delaying here will only sap their strength and morale. Alm: All right, Clive. I trust your judgment. Let’s get ready to march. Clive: Understood. I’ll pass word to the others and prepare them to cross into the empire. Alm: …… What’s all of this leading to?

Alm has legitimately sent a petition to Rudolf to stop his march into Zofian soil. As per his word, his aim was merely to drive back the invasion, then request that the Rigelian’s cease trying again. His attempts for peace, or at least a meeting for parley, are met with silence, and yet he waits until Wyrmstym/Winter before finally heeding Clive’s advice and engaging in a march. Who knows how long he had between Pegastym//Autumn and Wyrmstym to wait, but it’s implied it’s been long enough for a courrier to make it to the Empire’s capital, wait for political deliberation and receive a response, and then some.

And most importantly...

Alm: Listen, Celica. I know you sacrificed your own life to protect me and the others. But I never wanted that. I couldn’t ever be happy in a world you died to create! Celica: Oh, Alm… I’m sorry. I’m so, so sorry. Alm: Don’t apologize. Just know that I need you, all right? Without your wisdom, all I know how to do is fight whatever’s in front of me. So please… Will you fight with me? Believe in me. Believe in US. Believe in our combined strength!

Alm is very much aware that his skills lie in battle to resolve a conflict or problem, and as much as he has stated to dislike meaningless fights or struggles that can be avoided (as noted by his attempt to speak to some enemies (like witches) to try and dissuade them from attacking, or willingness to listen to Tatiana and thus speak to Zeke at the start of the fight with Jerome), and has even been noted to be a compassionate/kind leader (your choices as the player aside if you decide to kill everyone on ‘defeat boss’ missions lfmao), enough that Rigelians know this already and Rudolf can positively affirm it.

It makes him a mixed bag of emotions for this reason, because he feels terrible about what he’s good at doing, but he feels its the only way he can help.

Anyway, this was too long a post to just say that, but it’s what it is at its core. Alm is down to fight, especially if it’s someone he sees doing something vile, but as a means to an end he feels if it’s unnecessary it should be avoided (even if he feels its the only skill he has, even if it’s not particularly true). This compassionate side of him does not show at all when he feels it’s someone who deserves it, however (like Slayde and Desaix), which is probably something considered a flaw by some, maybe a dangerous one in a leader. It’s kind of fortunate that he has a well-maintained moral compass, I suppose, because this kind of thinking could lead straight to hell otherwise.

#long post #by his own loving heart | headcanon #[ meta ]

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battlestar-royco · 6 years ago

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Ive seen how certain str8 YT dude authors R better at writing diversity&Representation than str8 YT women. I think it's cuz there's nothing giving them a shield. When str8 yt dudes listen & understand their privilege & r willing 2 write & do better they actually (try) 2 do better. But str8 yt women. They can hide behind misogony & keep writing their bland str8 YT girl doing bland str8 yt girl shit & pass it off as EMPOWERMENT.

I think about this all the time, holy crap. While I hesitate to say straight white guys are better at writing diversity than straight white women, I DO think both S/W men and women fall into habits that are differently bad. Men tend to tokenize and sexualize the shit out of women and do the “strong female character” thing (AKA one (1) conventionally attractive white girl in an all-men cast who wears tight clothes while stabbing people and giving off a sassy line every now and then; may have been abused by a father/brother/boyfriend in the past; may be secretly yearning to have a child; may get chained up by the villain and then saved by the leading man). Meanwhile, women will write other S/W women and men just fine and then tokenize and abuse the shit out of everyone else. They also might fall into tropes of internalized misogyny while men will fall into tropes of internalized toxic masculinity. All that said, I do think S/W women are generally held up to a far higher standard for diversity than S/W men are for a lot of reasons, some of which being that a lot of times authors write for gendered audiences or their content is marketed in a gendered way. Thus, S/W men writers end up targeting S/W men while S/W women writers target S/W women. Generally, the audience members that are more invested in diversity are women, so audiences of S/W women end up critiquing the creator more than S/W men do. Also, S/W men often view all material through a very privileged lens (due to hetero goggles, male gaze, white/POC empathy gap, etc) that does not pick up on problematic things. I feel like in men-dominated fandom, calling out problematic things is a much less welcome tendency and will get you harassed and discredited far easier whereas women-dominated fandom seems more accepting of discourse.

To speak to your point, I think S/W women get a pass for so much oppressive stuff they do just based on the fact that they’re women, especially from S/W women stans. Also, their stuff is more likely to be marketed as “SUPER FEMINIST SO EMPOWERING” when really it’s the SAME EXACT SHIT WE’VE BEEN SEEING SINCE 1980. For decades, S/W women have been the lead in high concept rom coms, the most desirable love interests, superheroes, overthrowing the government, the Final Girl in almost every ensemble horror movie, etc. Meanwhile the MCU’s first film to feature a lead WOC in her natural skin color came out LAST YEAR (I believe, with Zendaya), after ten years of the MCU. Star Wars still has never featured a lead WOC and has killed off the vast majority of their lead POC despite having 5 white women leads. All the Barbie movies are literally everything wrong with white feminism, creating extremely gendered notions about society, and promoting conventionally attractive white women’s issues over everyone else’s in the name of empowerment. Similarly, there are only four Disney animated princesses of color and they all have the same body type and gender/sexuality. LGBTQ+ people, especially those of color, are nearly invisible in all media. Disability is barely addressed or extremely vilified in these blockbuster genres/franchises. Marginalized people are all just waiting for these same “feminist” S/W women to acknowledge how much longer non-cishet/white people have to wait to see themselves represented like that and how many of us continually get mentally scarred well into adulthood from severe lack of representation like

Furthermore, it is definitely, DEFINITELY true that a lot of privileged women and their stans use gender as a way to excuse their problematic asses and to act like the victim when someone calls them out. I’m not joking, I’ve seen straight white women write elaborate paragraphs, like ten pages’ worth in one post/article, explaining why people calling them/their faves racist, abusive, or homophobic is actually misogynistic instead of trying to sit back and learn COUNTLESS TIMES in COUNTLESS FANDOMS. For example, every time a white woman justifies whitewashing a character of color in favor of a white woman, or every time a new blond/brunette woman is inserted into a huge blockbuster franchise with fifteen other women who look just like her because “we’re all underrepresented” or “the POC talent wasn’t good enough.”

If I took a shot for every time a white woman said to me “you can’t judge x for its time” to excuse lack of diversity in a movie/show/book (AND OFTENTIMES IN THINGS THAT CAME OUT LITERALLY 5-15 YEARS AGO, LIKE THE MCU MOVIES, DISNEY MOVIES, SEX AND THE CITY, LEGALLY BLONDE, OR HBO GIRLS????), I would be dead. I’ve also seen them excuse fetishization of mlm/MOC (and often vilification for MOC) by saying that it’s women “expressing their sexuality” and “supporting rep.” This comes from the same women who wouldn’t touch LGBTQ+/MOC rep with a barge pole if it wasn’t hypersexualized, stereotypical, and/or cis/white. S/W women writers/fans have a huge problem with brutalizing POC and characterizing them overall as violent or abrasive, and giving Z E R O F U C K S about characters who are WOC unless they’re conventionally attractive/light-skinned (and even then it’s very dubious). Time and again they’ll refuse to feel any compassion for POC, write any positive meta on them, give them any benefit of the doubt, draw them in fanart, or ship them with other characters (especially with white characters). Some other age-old excuses are “we’re not ready for [x representation] in a mainstream movie,” word for word “I’m not racist but I just don’t ship it :/” when talking about an interracial ship (especially if one of the characters, usually the man in a m/w ship, is white), “I don’t want to read about gay people/poc lol,” and “race/sexuality shouldn’t matter.”

TL;DR many S/W women have a lot of shit to sort out amongst themselves and it’s really disingenuous of them to act like they’re empowered and they’re fighting the good fight for all women. Their representation isn’t perfect and they do deserve great rep, but so does everyone else, especially because when it comes to diversity white women always come first.

#asks #fandom racism #scholar-of-yemdresh

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tumbling-down-tumbling-down · 5 years ago

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A Transcription of the Late 1st Era Tele-Memetic Artifact “M.N. Captain Nero’s Adventures through Oblivi-Space!!, Vol. 17”

Transcriptor’s Note: One of the great pitfalls of modern academia’s myopic fascination with relics from great tombs and Ayleid ruins is that it tends to find a lot of incandescent crystals glowing every color of the rainbow that ironically shed virtually no light on how people of the past actually lived. While my colleagues at the I.C.A.U. were busy announcing what Dwemer outpost they’re going to spend the entire yearly budget (and probably a few graduate student souls) exploring, I just happened to look into my sweet neighbor Dynatia Geelteus’s request about a small cache of old artifacts workers found while excavating to expand her shop’s basement.

Who would have guessed that while we scrape the bottom of the barrel to plunder every single crypt for the last few legendary maces of +10 stamina damage, the real cultural treasures have been here all along, moldering beneath the ground of our city that’s been continuously inhabited by man and mer for at least 5,000 years. But by all means, don’t take my grant proposals.

—

This artifact appears to be a piece of entertainment or propganda of an unknown format. The physical object is two smooth translucent disks that can freely rotate around a single axis, apparently intersecting in physical space but able to pass through each other freely. Each disk individually is covered in Remen-era proto-Cyrodiilic text which this researcher is not fluent in. Nonetheless, when focusing not on the individual disks but instead the system as a whole, one is somehow able to pick out and resolve the competing overlapping fragments into clear meaning and even full color images.

Since this style of pictorial dissemination has been lost to time, this scholar will merely have to transcribe the language and events into mundane text for publication. Originally an artist was commissioned to recreate the images for closer inspection, but for some reason this style of tele-memetic transmission resists such replication. The images flee from the mind like fragments of an interrupted dream the moment a brush touches canvas. Until further investigation, it is unclear whether this is due to the metaphysics of observing a message through conflicting constituent aspects or if it’s some type of copy protection.

Humbly and respectfully, Ashei Tigonus Sr. Professor of Tamrielic History Imperial City Arcane University, 4E194

Transcription: “M.N. Captain Nero’s Adventures through Oblivi-Space!!, Vol. 17”

[A tall dark structure lies suspended high above the twin planets Zenithar and Mara. Three figures drift towards it, all decked out in full mundane-simulacrum frames of imperial mothsilk1 — a near-necessity for all but the most tenacious mortals in the interplanar stretches of oblivion. The wingcloaks of the suits flap slowly, propelling them forward and giving off gentle fuchsia pulses with each beat. In the background behind the three figures is an enormous moth imperator. The behemoth floats lackadaisically in the void, sunning the hanging gardens in its wings and the silver cathedral built into its back with the rays of distant Magnus.

Four title cards: “FIRST MATE YAL BOETH,” “CENTURION CLAI DUNLAIN,” and “BURGLAR XEIRSAAR” appear on the silhouetted figures. “THE N.V.N. MYRRHMIDON” names the far-off moth.]

YAL — “Remember: this warp-spire has been allegedly abandoned, but that just means there are no Alinori soldiers in there. These empty things have a tendency to accumulate all sorts of riff-raff, fugitives, and Khajiit before the last sunbird is even out of sight.”

XEIRSAAR — “I once found a grounded Akaviri cloud litter on the fourth ring of Kynareth. It was a tiny thing, no bigger than a large hut. And yet, when my egg-brother cracked open the hatch no less than six kaoc Khajiit shot out and scattered to the winds.

[Clai laughs as the party reaches the surface of the spire. Xeirsaar pulls out a small set of tools and gets to work on removing a silver plate from the surface while the others wait.]

XEIRSAAR — “I tried to grab one but they were the small quick ones that seem to squirm out of your reach before you’ve even considered moving your arm. We got the last laugh though. All the original Akaviri artifacts had been stripped away, but inside the Khajiit left behind a 10,000 drake cache of moon sugar — ahh, here we go.”

[The armored plate pops out of place and Xeirsaar spins it like a discus out into the void. Clai draws her catalyst staff and drops into the exposed hole. After a few seconds the others slide in after her.

The party emerges from the ground of a huge cylindrical colony with livable space wrapped around the spinning inner surface. The habitat environment looks it was plucked right out of the Alinor countryside — well-trimmed gardens filled with fountains and flowering trees blanket the gently rolling hills, soaring prismatic palaces shimmering in the artificial noon-light dot the landscape, birds flit to and fro among the trees and wheel through the expansive central sky. The crew removes their bulbous M.-S.F. helmets.]

CLAI, letting out a slow whistle — “Woah. Nice place. And the Dominion abandoned it? Why in Mundus would they do that?”

YAL — “Uhh, I know the high elves have strange architecture, but I’m pretty sure that one wasn’t built that way.”

[Yal points to one of the palaces behind the crew which is significantly shorter than the others. Rather than coming to an elegant peak, the blunted top is ragged and gashed, with chunks of shattered crystal and steel strewn all around the yard. Several trees on the surrounding hills appear to have been wrenched up by their roots and more deep gashes can be seen in the gardens themselves.

All at once birds from the surrounding area all take flight at once and stream away from the ruined mansion as a low hum begins to emanate from it.]

CLAI — “That’s probably not a good sign.”

??? — “MEANWHILE, BACK ON THE MYRRHMIDON…”

[Two title cards: “CAPTAIN NERO” and “CHIEF CARTOGRAPHER GAILIEL.” Gailiel is lying on her back in the glass-roofed observatory when Nero swings open the door and strides in. The top of the panel shows the canopy of brilliant stars speckled across the void of oblivion.]

NERO — “Hey Gail. Looking for something?”

GAILIEL — “There are 1,007 other known Magna-Ge tears out there. Who knows how many have their own system? Their own planets?”

NERO — “Surely only the Star of Magnus is great enough to sustain worlds. Our manometer measures the minor tears’ power at a thousandth of a thousandth of a thousandth as strong. They’re tiny compared to the sun.”

GAILIEL, breathlessly — “I’ve been thinking about this ⁠— that might merely be a matter of perspective. The Bosmer of my old homeland worship Y’ffre chief among all gods, while you Alessians relegate her to barely a footnote as merely one of the Earth-Bones. Perhaps the inhabitants of a sub-planet of Thief-IV have done the same with Magnus, and venerate their own king tear of the Magna-Ge instead.”

NERO — “That’s an interesting hypothesis, so where’s your proof?”

GAILIEL, exasperated — “Well surely that’s what explorers like us are for. Until we try, who would know?”

[Gailiel stands up and looks at Nero for the first time.]

GAILIEL — “Sorry. That’s why I’ve been so frustrated with our orders to set back for Tatterdemalion. I just want to push forward, not retrace paths that a dozen mananauts have tread before.”

[Nero smirks mischievously and pulls a two-disk tele-memetic device out of his pocket.]

NERO — “Oh these orders? The ones I read conspicuously aloud to everyone in front of that ‘merchant’ sunbird on Dibella?”

[Gailiel catches on and grins back in return while Nero crushes the disks with one hand.]

NERO — “Oh don’t worry, as soon as the exploration team gets back I have a much more interesting destination in mind…”

??? — “WILL YAL’S AWAY PARTY ESCAPE THE DANGER? TUNE IN NEXT VOLUME TO SEE THE INTREPID CREW OF THE MYRRHMIDON’S NEXT GRAND ADVENTURE!”

??? — “Bonus section: On this volume of ‘Meet the Crew!!’”

[Title card: “CHIEF META-ENTOMOLOGIST OCTAVIA OCTA’VO”

A young Cyrodiilic woman stands confidently, holding a butterfly net leaning across her shoulders with one hand and presenting a sealed glass jar with a silver-green moth inside with the other.]

??? — “Octavia is in charge of tending to the needs of ALTRRUHN, the moth imperator that serves as the foundation of the Myrrhmidon2. While the species doesn’t require mundane food or drink, its wings need to be continuously checked for voidmites or the dreaded silk shalks that have brought down multiple N.V.N. mothships.

When the crew makes landfall, Octavia keeps the Myrrhmidon in an chronoglass — a jar blown by the famed Glass-shouters Guild of Windhelm. The Nords say that Kyne’s breath fills the glass so uniformly that not even Akatosh has room to get in. Storing the Myrrhmidon inside will keep ALTRRUHN in near-perfect unaging stasis — important since moth imperators are hard to find, even harder to train, and don’t tend to live a particularly long time.”

??? — “THAT’S ALL THIS WEEK. CHECK BACK IN VOL. 18 TO MEET HELMSMAN ZYKLOHS!”

Transcription endnotes: 1 To see a rare surviving M.-S. frame from the era in person, contact Professor Hlov Gateri at the Imperial City Arcane University who regularly displays one from his private collection in his office. He’d love to talk to anyone who’s interested about the Remen-era New Void Navy.

2 The Elder Council Public Archives keep records of every known moth imperator of the first, second, and early third eras and ALTRRUHN is not on the list. The existence of other places, events, and individuals listed in the text is harder to ascertain, since many of those records are still held in confidence by the Royal Imperial Mananauts and are never disclosed publicly.

#elder scrolls #apocrypha

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slendermanlore · 8 years ago

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Original Mythos + Literary References

Here’s a compilation of references to (allegedly) real books, movies, online stories and sites, etc. made by contributors to the Original Mythos.

Original Mythos Meta:

Slender Man would make a pretty nice horror novel in the lines of "House of Leaves".

Essentially, make the novel a collection of witness statements, newspaper clippings, pictures, drawings, articles discussing evidence for an against the slender man and, to tie it all neatly together, a few stories of people who want to track the slender man, unravel the mystery,

And the kicker would be the last 20 or so pages would be missing, with only scraps of paper left, arranged as logically as possible, just excerpts, words, rips, ink stains, etc.

Original Mythos Meta:

It's The Rake all over again!

Conspiracies:

When you posted the part about the chest injuries it reminded me of the Dyatlov Pass incident that was posted in the Unsolved Mysteries thread:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dyatlov_pass_accident

Wikipedia posted:

and both Dubunina and Zolotarev had major chest fractures. The force required to cause such damage would have been extremely high, with one expert comparing it to the force of a car crash.Notably, the bodies had no external wounds, as if they were crippled by a high level of pressure. One woman was found to be missing her tongue.[1]

Original Mythos Meta:

I'm suddenly imagining a Slender Man "documentary," done in a style similar to The Last Broadcast or that old Alien Abduction TV special. Interviews with witnesses of various encounters through the years, investigation into the different events brought up in this thread, and specialists analyzing photographs, intercut around home video footage taken by a missing family, showing them being picked off by the Slender Man. As we get further into the film, we also start to see behind the scenes footage of the making of the documentary, with crew members not showing for work and not answering calls, various production problems… then finally ending with a note that the director disappeared immediately after completion of the film.

Original Mythos Meta:

"Some say that the worst monsters reside in the imagination, drawn from the greatest fears of those who imagine them. I say there are horrors beyond mortal imagining, and they are far worse. And I have looked on both."

Original Mythos Meta:

The backstories have been working well so far because they talk about things without explaining them, it's sort of along the lines of House of Leaves in that way.

Marble Hornets Preamble:

He agreed, but only under the circumstance that I never bring them back to him, and never discuss what was on them with him. He also highly discouraged me from showing any of it to anyone else. I laughed at this, and said that he must have accidentally made The Ring or something with the way he was talking. He didn’t acknowledge this and brought me up to his attic, where he was storing the pile of tapes.

British Myths, Legends, and Unsolved Tales:

Adair, J. (1989) British Myths, Legends and Unsolved Tales, London: Pan Books.

Original Mythos Meta:

Has anyone thought about the possibility that we are creating a tulpa? It's a thought form that is realized through the efforts of a group of people. We might be creating the Slender Man, making him real.

The Toronto Society for Psychical Research did this with an entity called "Philip" in the mid-70's. There was a book written about it, called "Conjuring up Philip." "He" was a fictional person, knowingly created by the group. It was all fun and games until "Philip" started to take on a mind of his own. "Philip" became real, as far as any paranormal thing could be said to be real. So take all this with a big grain of salt.

Original Mythos Meta:

Now go watch Aphex Twin's 'Come To Daddy' video. Take careful note of the inhumanly tall, emaciated figure the children gather around.

Original Mythos Meta:

The Slender Man, to date, is the only thing to creep me out worse than the Black Eyed Kids… of course, not all the missing children were recovered… who knows what happens to them when the Slender Man is finished?

Original Mythos Meta:

After all, the greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.

Original Mythos Meta:

No, the greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he DID exist.

Small Findings:

I have this coffee table book of photos from Life magazine. The pictures go back to the late 1800s.

Imagine my surprise when I took a closer look at this photo of Yosemite Valley from the 1870s.

Not only did I see our mysterious boogie man

But also the skull and rib cage of some unfortunate soul.

I can’t say for sure that the remains are one of its victims, but I’d be willing to bet on it.

Conspiracies:

XI 20: He who several times has Held the cage and then the woods, He will return to the first state His life safe shortly afterwards to depart, Still not knowing how to know, He will look for a subject in order to die.

Original Mythos Meta:

"There are those who believe they can be "one" with those who are not of our world. These people often think that somehow they have some kind of mental or "spiritual" link. Oftentimes these people will go out into areas that have been reported to be the hunting grounds of said creatures. These individuals are often more dangerous than the creatures that they worship/are in love with. When faced with the choice between the reality of the creature not existing or staying in a fake world they will choose, sometimes to the bitter end, the made up world.

In a somewhat ironic way, those who believe themselves to be the worthy follower/lover of these beings are in fact far removed from the "ideal" being the creature would choose!"

Edvard Tobin "Humanity and the Supernatural: A Dangerous Combo" Pub: 1994

Original Mythos Meta:

In reading this thread, I'm struck by one behaviour of Der Ritter in particular, that of its impaling its victims in a tree, while removing and reinserting their internal organs. It's remarkably akin to the feeding habits of shrikes, also known as butcherbirds.

See, what a shrike will do is capture a smaller animal - anything from a cricket to a smaller bird or mouse - and kill it. Shrikes are songbirds, and their musculature is pretty lacking compared to a straight-up raptor like a hawk or owl, so their kill is messy and inefficient, consisting of many pecks and bites to the head and neck. This continues until the prey animal is either dead or too tired to fight. But that's not the worst part. The worst part is that as weak as their jaws are, their claws are weaker, and they wholly lack talons. They're built to perch. So, what a shrike will do, is it will take its prey to a thorny tree, or bush, or even barbed wire, and it will ram its prey down on a spike so that it won't move when the shrike tears it apart.

It's a songbird that's learned to kill, and it does so far more cruelly than any raptor.

Anyone ever hear the Slender Man sing?

e: Wikipedia on Lanius excubitor, the Great Gray Shrike: "This species will lure birds closer by mimicking their calls."

Original Mythos Meta:

I'm still REALLY seeing Slender Man as being related to Shadow People and, now, the hat man. http://www.thehatmanproject.com/

I have this vision of Slender Man coming up to you and Shadow People just… gurgling out of his shadow. As if he creates them.

Original Mythos Meta:

Slender Man is like that stupid game where you lose as soon as you think about it.

If you think about him, he knows. If you fear him, he comes. The only way to escape the Slender Man is to not know about the Slender Man.

Conspiracies:

In 1977, as Led Zeppelin embarked on their tour of the United States, Jimmy Page’s interest in the occult and addiction to heroin were at their peak. His playing was spotty at times, his weight had dropped considerably, and his focus was clearly elsewhere. His delving into the supernatural spirits made him lose sight of the goal of the band, with Zeppelin’s lights manager later remarking that singer Robert Plant would often have to snap Page out of his between-song trances, with Page not remembering how their own tunes went. Page also grew increasingly paranoid in an infamous incident prior to an interview with Cameron Crowe where he ripped a phone out of the wall because he felt that someone was spying on him. It was as if a force he tapped into was corrupting him.

Original Mythos Meta:

I wonder perhaps if Slenderman's name is Zoso, but he would come for anybody who figured it out, which is perhaps why Jimmy Page has been so secretive about exactly where they got their symbols for their IV album.

Hang on guys, I think there's somebody standing in front of my house…

Ghost Stories of the American South:

So once the Slender Man began popping up in this thread, I could have sworn something about it seemed familiar. I’m an amateur folklorist, so I had a few source books lying around. It took me a while, but I finally found something in W.K. McNeil's Ghost Stories of the American South. Most of the tales collected are transcripts of recordings other folklorists made, but McNeil compiles them and offers notes. A really handy book. So anyway, this particular story appears in the book’s seventh section, “Other Supernatural Creatures.”

Original Mythos Meta:

Wasn't there an artist who painted a picture—supposed to be really famous, its in all the big fancy art books. Isn't called "The Scream" or "The Screamer" ? It showed an elongated person with its hands besides its head or doing like the microphone around its mouth.

[...]

Hasn't ANYONE seen the movie "Mimic" ? The Judas Bug. It EVOLVED to look like the prey that it hunted. Now, i understand that this doesn't fit every story (like the wood carvings, But it does rather fit the Woodcarving with the skeleton with the arm-spear, It looks human)

Nathaniel V:

From a grimoire of sorts I picked up at a used book store.

Called The Observations and written by someone calling himself Nathaniel V. I don’t know if that is a letter “v” or a roman numeral 5.

Original Mythos Meta:

I think I mentioned this before--but the original Slender Man pics associated him with fire, as in preceding or instigating fire. Dissection and other means of destruction came later--not that I'm complaining. As Call of Cthulhu d20 once said, a beastie can have a thousand legs today and no legs next time, so long as it makes each encounter more horrifying.

#Slender Man Arkive #original mythos #slenderverse #slender man #slenderman

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extraposts23 · 7 years ago

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Flash back training. Dont reblog.

So this is a meta i wrote about how Arrow/Oliver’s training and how unrealistic and ridiculous it is , given all that happens in the 5 years that happened to him. How there is no way he could have possibly become the ‘Expert/Master’ martial artist that we see in the present. How he returns to Star City and suddenly he is a ‘Expert’ You don’t have to read it if you don’t want, you don’t have to like it either.

So here is my break down, its a bit in depth . Episode by episode via the Flashbacks . Exactly what happens in the Flashbacks. Im not disputing the fighting we see on screen,the actual physical fights or rather how they were done, im DISPUTING how Oliver got to that point in the 5 YEARS he was missing. How he got to the level we see in the present. In the present part of the show he is at this expert/master level, but in his 5 year journey how could he have possibly got to that point. Where would he have had the time, given all that was happening, given that he spent the majority of each flashback year on the run, captured , tortured and on the run again. Because the past training is unrealistic and ridiculous. Also this is supposed to be a show based in realistic fighting, so shouldn’t the training of the character be realistic as well? Again, not the present stuff , but the past trained to how he got to the present level because it does not match. Given the few months that Oliver had of actual fight training from Slade.

I will mention the present training a little towards the end, the training he got from Merlyn and Ra’s. But mostly this is about the past , 5 years , he was supposedly trained.

The show seems to be pretty much real time. So this is the first Season , year 1 up to the first half of Season 4, Year 4 of Oliver’s missing time.

Sorry , i may repeat my self a few times.

1x01-We find out how he ended up on the island in the first place and how his dad died.

1x02-Oliver buries his dad and gets shot with an Arrow by Yeoh Fei. So he is injured within the first week.

1x03- Yeoh Fei treats Oliver’s woulds and gives him the magic special herbs that heal every thing known to man. Oliver then tries to run and gets caught in a net. Yeoh Fei then saves him and they return to the cave. Oliver still injured.

1x04-Yeoh fei teaches Oliver to kill a bird. Oliver is getting better, after his injury

1x05-Yeaoh fei teaches Oliver to fire a Bow with NO success. Then Oliver gets captured by that fires guys men and thrown into a cage. Then gets brought to the bad guys base camp. Gets tortured and Yeoh Fei rescues him. No way he could have been trained here because he was captured.

1x06- Oliver hallucinates his own father. He is by himself , so no way Yeoh Fei could have shown him anything.

We jump ahead to episode 9 because the 2 previous episodes were about huntress.

1x09- Yeoh Fei captures the bad guy Fires. Oliver is still at zero skill level , No way Yeoh Fei taught him anything in intervening episodes. Yeoh Fei is taking Fires and Oliver to the Plane so Oliver can go home. Its a trap and Oliver runs away, Yeoh Fei takes on Slades former partner and a bunch of goons with guns and gets captured by said bad guys.

1x10-Oliver tries to make himself a fire and almost gets caught by a bad guy. He takes out said bad guy by taking them both down a hill and into a brook/river. He then takes the bad guys uniform and map. Oliver is by himself again , so no way Yeoh Fei was able to teach him anything.

1x11- Oliver manages to infiltrate Fires men and make it to Fires camp again only to get cracked over the head by Fires himself. Finding out that Yoeh fei betrayed him.

1x12- Oliver is still a prisoner and is forced to fight Yeoh Fei. He gets his ass kicked by Yeoh Fei and Yeoh Fei uses the pressure point thing on him and he wakes up in a river only to head to the plane and meet Slade. Im sorry but Oliver was unconscious so there is no way he could have figured out how to do the pressure thing. Not from Yeoh Fei.

1x13- Oliver meets Slade at the plane and he almost kills Oliver. Slade attempts to teach him to use a sword and fails. He ties Oliver up and they discuss things then lets Oliver go to “train” him.

1x14- Remember this is real time, so a week later Slade is trying to teach Oliver the Eskrima sticks and succeeds a LITTLE. Id also like to point out that Slade literally says “ how did you survive here for 6 months” , so that is six months of the first year where Oliver knows NOTHING. So clearly Yeoh Fei taught him NOTHING in that time .Then they immediately go to the air strip and Oliver steps on a Land mine, to which Slade saves him. Slade and Oliver have some fun by the fire side. They try to infiltrate the air strip that night and Oliver faces off with a guy who has a gun and Slade shoots him from behind saving Oliver. Slade then shoots the guy in the radio tower , Oliver then tries to take out the guy in the tower but fails , Slade saves him yet again. Oliver goes off to rescue Yeoh Fie. Fails again and forced to fight or rather be publicly killed by Slades former partner. Slade to the rescue yet again. Slade kills his former partner and Oliver and he escape, Oliver faces a goon with a gun and manages a single move that Slade taught him. Then he takes a bullet out of Slades arm. And we find out that the reason for Yeoh fei’s betrayal is Shado. So Oliver was able to glean a few moves from Slade in this day/night. But still poor skills given that at the air field Slade came to his aid and did all the work. Point being no way is he a skilled fighter at this point.

1x15- Slade is sick and the wound is infected so Oliver is treating him, goes to get super herbs . Interrogates a guy in the cave. So how is Slade going to continue training him when he is ill?

1x16- Slade and Oliver exercise and Oliver decides to play with the radio instead of training. Slade goes hunting and Oliver is still playing with the radio. Slade and Oliver then find a missile site. No fight training.

1x17- They are still at the Missile site. They infiltrate the site and Slade shoots them all. Oliver then makes a deal with the bad guy, the circuit board for a way off the island.

1x18- takes place right after the other one. They are still making the deal with Fires. They are about to trade the circuit board for Yeoh fei and Shado. They fight, Slade and Shado kick ass. Oliver shoves a guy against a tree, manages to flip him then hits him in the head with a rock. They end up having to leave Yoeh fei behind. So clearly Slade did not teach him much more after that one time, and when would he have had the time with all that is happening.

1x19- Slade and Shado spar and Oliver watches. Shado has Oliver slapping a bowl of water to learn arm strength. Next scene Oliver is still slapping water and Shado is doing Yoga. At night Oliver is slapping water and now he can draw his bow. Also id point out that Slade in this episode literally says “ ive tried to train him, but limited success” so Slade did not have much time to teach Oliver anything. Shado says “ i haven’t tried yet”, then she has him slapping a bowl of water , then starts teaching him the bow, because they don’t have time for anything else, because they have to get ready to deal with fires. So shado taught him zip in regards to martial arts which is seen in the finale.

1x20-Maybe takes place right after the last or a day or so later. Shado teaches Oliver to shoot a bow and fails. She says that he will hit his mark by sundown or they do it Slade way. Oliver fails, because at the end Shado has a face failure, then they get caught by yeoh fei and the bad guys.So how exactly is Shado or Slade going to continue Oliver’s fight training if they have been captured?

1x21- was all about Oliver’s dad and Merlyn.

We skip to 1x22 - Again maybe a day or 2 later ,guessing maybe same day since it can’t possibly take that long to get to the ememy camp. Slade , Shado and Oliver are brought to the bad guy camp. Where they learn that the bad guys are going to down a plane. Fires shoots Slade and Shado, Yeoh fei gives Oliver a knife to cut himself free. And they watch Yeoh fie executed. So that is now Yeoh Fei out of the training equation.

1x23-The finale - Oliver cuts himself free and rushes over and shoves Fires then stabs the guy at the control panel. Turns and cuts Shado free . Slade and Shado are bad asses again , but Oliver then gets grabbed by the guy he stabbed. Is being held until Shado saves him, he cannot get free. So If Shado had taught him anything, then why did he need her to rescue him, if he had the martial arts skills taught by her. Because he was NOT taught by her. They then try to take out the launcher. Slade covers them with his gun, Shado then takes out the guy on the launcher and then Oliver runs up to get on it. After Shado takes out 2 more guys on the launcher she gets taken over the side and Oliver is left alone. he gets thrown down on the thing by another guy and repeatedly pounded , he kicks him off then throws him over the side. And the missile hits the camp instead. All the skills of a unskilled brawler or rather the limited skills that Slade taught him in that one day or so.. Shado is taken by Fires and Oliver then shoots the guy through the throat killing him.

So that is one year down, where he was taught maybe limited skills by Slade via a day or so. Yeoh Fei spent like 80% of the year helping Oliver recover from the Arrow that he himself put in him, then got caught and was working for Fires. There is NO WAY that he could have taught Oliver anything. I’ll give Shado the Bow, because she was able help with his aim and help with his arm strength. But in NO WAY would she have had time to teach him any fighting, given the time they had and the fact they got captured immediately.

Season 2- 2x01-Again this is pretty much real time , so he only had a few months. Shado literally says “ you have come far in a FEW months”. He improved a bit with the stick fighting via Slade and combat skills via Slade again, but immediately Shado is captured and he tackles the guy and beats him with a rock. Now, his feelings were in the way, granted, but if he was trained so well by either of them, then he would not have simply just tackled the guy , he would have dealt with all of them like the “skilled fighter” we see in the present, but he was not trained for very long by Slade. You cannot become an expert in a FEW months, in Season 1 episode 14, Slade was attempting to teach him fighting and Oliver learned maybe one move.

2x02-The next episode takes place right after and the are waking around trying to figure out who is after them as well as Oliver dealing with killing a guy. And they find the cave.

2x03- Shado is examining a corpse . Slade and Oliver go to look around to scope out the area and Ivo’s ship fires missiles on the plane wreckage they are living in. Oliver goes running off to save Shado and Slade gets hit and severely injured. And Oliver wakes up in a cell on the Amazo.

2x04-Oliver is still on the Amazo in a cage , gets shot by one of the guards , and pulls a bullet out of his side with tweezers of some kind. He meets the Russian guy Anatoyli . Oliver finds out that the ship crew are looking for some grave site and some bones,and he finds Sara. Now Oliver is a prisoner , so how exactly is he supposed to learn to fight when he is a prisoner and being tortured?

2x05- Flash backs for Sara, we learn how she survived, and how she ended up on the Amazo.

2x06- So if we are going for year long here, Oliver had to have spent at least 2 weeks on the boat as a prisoner, if not more, because this is year 2 of his missing years. Oliver is still prisoner on the Amazo, being interrogated by IVO. So exactly how is supposed to have learned any fighting when he is a prisoner and being tortured? Sara and IVO want to know where a Sub is and where the Mirakurru is. Oliver is in a cage and talking to Sara. Shado is treating a critically injured Slade. Oliver and Sara try to contact Slade and Shado, but Oliver is tricked by Sara and now IVO knows the location of his friends and the plane.

2x07-Then next week Ivo, Sara and Oliver go to the plane wreckage and Shado who was treating a critically injured Slade manage to escape the bomb that they find. Shado and a really hurt Slade rescue Oliver and Sara. So Shado and a SERIOUSLY INJURED Slade again save Oliver. Oliver could not have been trained by Shado since at this point she had been taking care of Slade.

I also reiterate , there is NO WAY you can become an expert in martial arts on only a few months, the amount of time between Season 1 finale and Season 2 premiere . Which is what Shado said, “you came far in a few months” , came far but not an expert. It takes YEARS Upon YEARS to master even one style.

2x08-Then next week , this has to be at least the next day or so after the last flash back.They all are helping Slade walk and looking for the Submarine. They find the Sub and enter the Sub to find the drug. We also find out that Slade had feelings for Shado, but she only cared for him as a friend maybe. They inject Slade with the Serum and Shado ,Sara and Oliver gets captured Again. So that is now Slade out of the equation of trainers. Because how is Slade going to train Oliver when he is this injured, and now in super strength madness.

2x09-Then very next episode, has to be immediately after the last. IVO’s men storm the sub and capture Shado , Sara and Oliver. IVO is furious that they used the drug on Slade,but happy they have the drug. Sara pleads with IVO, but he doesn’t care to much. Now if Oliver had any of the training that he supposedly got from Shado, then the men with guns would not have been a problem. But to be fair here, in this one part they were taken by surprise and Shado could not have done anything either. But i am disputing where he could have gotten his training. And still here , there is no way because they were CAPTURED AGAIN. Slade wakes up and has super strength, Oliver is forced to choose between Shado and Sara and he chooses Sara. Shado dies. So that is now Shado out of the training equation. She could not have possibly trained him , given that half the time they were either captured , on the run, helping Slade and now dead.

Soo no i don’t buy that Shado had time to teach him anything at all. Not given what we see. Because if she taught him any fighting techniques he would have been a way better fighter than what we saw. And She could not possibly have taught him after since she was killed.

2x10-Now the next episode is spent dealing with Slades Mirakuru madness, so He definitely would not have been trained by him at that time. They bury Shado next to her father. Slade gives Oliver Yeoh Fei’s hood, Oliver wants to tell Slade the truth. Slade has the super drug and he is losing his mind. Slade wants to find IVO and kill him. Sara doesn’t believe that Slade can kill all the men on the Amazo. Slade gets pissed and lifts Oliver off the ground. To distract him Sara hits him with a log. Slade regains a little sense. IVO contacts Sara on the Radio , while they are hiding from him. Sara goes to find Slade only to find that Slade left with the Mirakurru.

2x11- Sara and Oliver look for Slade at the Plane, he is not there.Sara wants to to take IVO’s deal. She for some reason believes him. Sara and Oliver are camping at the plane and talking of old times, Sara is unsure they will make it off the island. Oliver apologies for the gambit. Sara admits that she chose to go on the gambit.Then Slade goes off on his own and Oliver and Sara are alone. Sara then contacts IVO after Oliver falls asleep. Sara then realizes that IVO is nuts, and agrees to help Oliver, has a change of heart.

2x12-Sara and Oliver are still looking for Slade, Sara does not want to tell Slade the truth about Shado. They think Slade is in a cave.They find Slade, he is still on the verge of Mirakuru madness. Oliver then talks Slade down from the missile launcher, he wants to bomb the Amazo. Oliver says he will help him through the serum effects. They decide to take the freighter.

2x13 -was all about Sara flashbacks.

2x14- Sara, Slade and Oliver scope out the Amazo. They realize they don’t have time to build a raft to get over. Sara points out how many guards are on the boat, clearly thinks these guys are dangerous and that the three of them dont have a chance. Now again id point out that if Oliver was at the level of skill that training via Shado and Slade had given him, then with him ( at that level) and Slade( even in his madness) would have been able to get aboard with little problem. But Oliver was only given maybe a few months and a couple of days worth of fight training. Then the next they find a plane which explains Sin. The plane is pretty much useless. Sara then promises to find Sin and look after her. And Oliver finds find a parachute.

2x15-This is maybe a couple of days later, a week maybe. Oliver is working out, running and training with his bow, but no fight training because , they don’t have time and Slade most likely is in no shape to help him. Not to mention would probably lose himself in the training and kill Oliver. Sara herself says “Slade is unstable”. So all we see is Oliver Work out. He does get better with the bow though. Sara makes some nifty drugs she gleaned from training from IVO. Sara and Oliver agree to destroy the drug, and Slade then agrees as well. They burn the drug. They all drink before the mission, Sara and Oliver make promises to each other to tell there families.The next they prep to invade the boat. Oliver pretends to get caught to infiltrate the freighter. So he is now captured by IVO and being tortured. Sara and Slade parachute in. Sara goes to free the prisoners and Slade goes to kill the men, Oliver goes to find IVO. Slade deals with the men because he is the only one who can. Oliver runs into one guy and uses the same move that Slade taught him in Season 1. Oliver still shows the same limited skills that we see in Season 1. Except for the Bow. He gets maybe one move in akin to the one we see after a week with Slade. Slade finds out that Oliver was forced to choose, he and Slade fight , but he gets he ass kicked. Slade kicks him into the steering wheel , which forces the ship onto the rocks, the only reason Oliver gets away. Once on deck, Oliver grabs a guy running away and throws him overboard. Anatolyi fires off a gun and kills like 3 goons , one more shows up and Oliver fires an Arrow into the guys leg. he is warned about a guy behind him , then turns and shoots that guy with and arrow, rolls out of the way of a blade of some kind, comes up and shoots that guy with an Arrow.They all decide to jump ship and literally as Oliver is jumping Slade grabs him. He is captured by Slade. Slade chops off IVO’s hand, and we find out that Slade kept the drug, they only burned a box.

2x16- is all about the suicide squad and Diggle flashback.

2x17-So like 2 weeks later Oliver is still on the boat being held by Slade. So no possible way to learn any martial arts skills.Oliver is being tortured by Slade , and given a tattoo by a clearly untrained tattoo artist.Sara and the prisoners are back at the plane, Slade wants to trade Oliver for the ships engineer.Sara agrees to make the trade, Sara hits the engineer over the head with a crowbar

2x18- Sara is planning to make the trade, Sara decides to use the trade as a way to take out Slade. Sara decides to use the Land mines to kill Slade, via strapping it to the engineers chest, with Anatolyi’s KGB skills to do it. Oliver is still on the boat being tortured by Slade . Sara makes the trade , but her plan fails because Slade can smell the TNT. Slade decides to leave them all on the island. And tells them he is going to kill their families.

2x19-Oliver, after being released/freed, gets treated by Sara and takes the magic herbs of Yeoh Fei’s . Oliver finds out there is a cure for the Super human serum, and kills Ivo.

2x20-Flash backs about Oliver getting a girl pregnant and Moria bribing the girl.

2x21- 2 weeks later Sara, Oliver and the Russian guy are on the Sub and about to blow the Sub.And Sara gets captured.

2x22-Then he tries to rescue her and destroy the serum and gets captured, because it was clearly a trap by Slade.

2x23-Then the finale is him and Slade fighting and the only reason he won was the boat was going down and Slade got pinned. Then he ends up in Wallers care.

So that is Year 2 down , where Oliver was only given limited training. A few months worth added to the couple of days to a week that Slade had originally trained him. Plus Bow training from Shado. I don’t buy that Shado had time to teach him anything but the bow. Because again, had he been trained by her or Yeoh Fei , then he would have been a better fighter , and again there is NO WAY that they could have made him an expert in those few months between seasons, and during the flashbacks where exactly would he have had the time. Plus Shado is immediately caught and killed right away, and Slade goes nots for the majority of the season after he is critically injured .

Season 3- 3x01 Now again this is all real time. So what ever amount of months between the season 2 finale and Season 3 premiere, Oliver is being held by Argus and is chased by Maseo. So in real time months from finale of Season 2 , he gets his ass handed to him by Maseo . If he was trained extensively by Shado and by Slade he should have been able to handle Maseo or at least been able to hold his own. Ill grant you that Oliver got a couple of blocks in in his fight with Maseo but nope , still no actual fighting skills aside from the still limited skills that Slade taught him. Also Shado only taught Oliver a couple of words in Chinese and he doesn’t understand anything that Maseo says in Chinese. Id also like to mention that Maseo is a trained martial artists and argus agent. He is now , being watched by Maseo at his house .

3x02-Next episode right after Maseo is having him sniper Tommy. He captured Tommy with the help of Maeso.

3x03 was all about Thea.

3x04- Next episode 2 weeks later, He tracks and kills an old man with the help of Maseo. We learn that Tatsu hates Oliver.Then confronts Waller about the secret stuff and she tells him about China white.

3x05 was all about Felicity

3x06-2 weeks later again he is running after a guy in the market and fails to catch him. Gets help from Tatsu to remember what happened .

3x07-The next episode Maseo is missing and he and Tatsu go to find him and Tatsu does all the fighting or rather sword work. Oliver gets surprised buy one of the guys , then gets beat on. So if he had such extensive training by Slade, then why did he get the crap beat out of him. Tatsu comes to the rescue. The whole time she is sword killing guys he is on the ground after getting the tar beat out of him. Oliver is attempting to learn chinese . When they return to Tatsu’s home , Maseo is already there.

3x08- He learns how to torture people, or rather just tortures the guy. and fails to get the info.A bomb goes off because he did not torture the man. Oliver gets a second chance and decides to start torturing people because he thinks Waller may be right.

3x09- He finds out about the Alpha/Omega. They capture a scientist guy , he does it with Maseo’s help. Not with much trouble they just tricked him. Tatsu gets captured.

3x10-Waller sends Oliver and Maseo after the Alpha/Omega. Olive takes a guy down with a slap to the face from his bow as the guy comes up around the corner, shoves him into the wall and throws him to the ground. And it turns out that he put a tracker on the goon.

3x11 - He and Maseo are in a club trying to find Tatsu.Id like to point out that Oliver says “ that is a lot of muscle in front of that door”. So if he has such extensive training by Slade , then he should not be concerned about said muscle. During the fight Oliver hits a guy with a chair. Throws a guy into the dance floor and grabs his gun. shoots one guy , jumps on the bar and shoots another. Tatsu , throws a knife with deadly accuracy. Oliver is still on the level of skill he had at the beginning of the island. Because if he was on the present Oliver skill level , the he would have done more then just hit a guy with a chair.

3x12-Was all about how Merlyn went to join the League. Now id like to point out that when he gets there he meets Nyssa , who is training with a member of the League , she is maybe 11-12, so her father ( Ra’s Al Ghul ) has her training since she could pick up a weapon, a time when in this episode Oliver , around that age is shown to be comforting his childhood friend Tommy during Tommy’s mother’s death. So Nyssa has been training since CHILDHOOD. And i really doubt that her father would have had her stop, or let her do anything else, since she is meant to be his heir. And Oliver has maybe a few months and a couple of weeks of actually training in his 5 year journey. Let me also point out that she beat the guy who was teaching her the sword. So Oliver is the better fighter is nonsense, because with the training that he got on the island and through out the flashback time frame he has limited skills and then miraculously is an expert upon his return?.

3x13- Tatsu and Maseo are leaving and Oliver gets captured by Waller. Kay now Oliver gets chased by the ARGUS guys , shoves one guy into some barrels , punches another , then runs away again. He gets tackled and then tasered. No Shado/Slade trained skill used. If he had any the extensive skills via Slade , then why was he running? Why not fight them and win?Oliver gets tortured and gives up the Yamashiros. Maseo gets caught, but the difference is that he let him self get caught to rescue Oliver.

3x14- Oliver and Maseo are now working for Waller yet again. He pays a visit to Thea , in the shadows of course, to check up on her. Oliver sneaks into Queen Consolidated with no trouble since they have rent-a cops and he knows the place, plus he had help from Maseo.He kills a drug dealer with the same moves that Slade taught him in Season 1 or 2. But again a drug dealer with no fighting abilites at all. Oliver tries to run, because he believes that he can hide from Waller, but Waller needs his help. Then after coming to help Maseo with a gun,jumps off a building onto the back end of a moving vehicle and shoots it. The only reason that China white did not fight, was because her car had crashed. gets immediately handed over to General Shrieve.

3x15- Oliver is being debriefed by the general , The Yamashiros are attacked and Oliver covers them with a gun. He then takes Akkio and runs, since Wallers men are after them. Maseo and Tatsu go off in a different direction.

3x16- OLiver spends his time on the run with Akio, and meets Shados twin.So while he is on the run , how exactly would he have time to train?

3x17- was all about the suicide squad

3x18- Oliver is staying with Shados twin and trying to explain to her who is after her. Argus guys show up and again he shows the Season 1 level of hand to hand because he land maybe 2 or 3 punches and then gets thrown into a wall. He then retruns the favor, and lands a couple more punches but another dude shows up with a gun then Maseo and Tatsu come to the rescue yet again.

3x19- The Yamishiros and Oliver are still on the run, Oliver then goes back to Wallers hideout and has little trouble getting in since the General’s men were already there and pretty much all of Wallers men are dead. Then Oliver and co break into the generals lab/base and Oliver surprises a guard , so still Season 1 level skill. Plus the guy clearly was just a rent-a guard and did not even fight back. They then decide to go after the General and his men.

3x20- Now Oliver and co are after a moving truck , Oliver tries to jump to the truck and fails, lands behind the car he is on in the first place. later he manages to get aboard with the help of Maseo who shoots while driving. Once aboard Oliver throws one guy out of the truck, then another . he blocks the other guys punches but this is still Season 1 level because these guys are holding there own against him and they are clearly not special forces trained guys. Also Tatsu ended up coming to his aid again. She says “ you look like you could use a hand” , if he was extensively trained by Slade for more than few months then he would not need anyone’s help. He broke the other guys arm with a roll move, another move he learned from Slade. Tatsu gets info from a still living soldier. Then he faces a guy in the market place , to get the vial of Omega, and this guy had some level of Martial arts skill and Oliver gets his butt kicked yet again.mostly Oliver was dodging and blocking, he did flip the guy like maybe 2 times, but still got beat. So again still at Season 1-2 skill here. If he was trained by Shado, Yeoh Fei or Maseo then he would have no problem with that guy.

3x21- Oliver and co are in china still and the Omega virus is in the air. They start a fire fight in the middle of the market . Tatsu makes it to the truck and takes out 2 of the guys, Oliver gets grabbed from behind and can’t get free, Tatsu slices the guy from behind. Again Tatsu to the rescue. They blow up the truck and go back to akio . Then as they are attempting to flee the city , Akio becomes sick.

3x22-Oliver and co are dealing with the fact that Akio is dying. Oliver and Maseo go after the general and Oliver then takes down 2 guards via firing arrows from his bow. They bring the general to Akio , but hes dead.

3x23- Finale- Oliver and co are attacked by the Generals men, Oliver then slams the general into a wall , throws him to the ground and starts punching him over and over. First guy through the door is shot by Maseo, then the second goes the same way. Oliver then hides behind a counter, shoots a guy with his bow and and uses this guy for a shield to get near the other guy , then trips that guy and starts pounding on him with his bow. Like just keeps slamming it down on the guy. Really all i see is a bunch of brawling, he only uses a couple of moves he got from Slade , but in no way was this Present Oliver level skill. He then starts torturing the general. Then lastly after Maseo leaves Tatsu and Oliver part ways.

So in no way was he trained by Maseo or Tatsu and he definitely had no skills from Shado, aside from the bow.

Season 4- Episode 1-Again this is real time. So months later after Season 3 Oliver is now in Coast City trying to be an early incarnation of the Arrow. he’s chasing down a drug dealer on a rooftop. The guy pulls a gun and fires , Oliver hides behind some sort of object on the roof. When the guy stops firing he rushes the guy. The guy then ducks out of Oliver’s reach and punches Oliver in the face. Then the guy grabs Oliver and throws him off the roof where Oliver lands tangled up in wires and meets Waller. Where exactly was Oliver’s supposed skill. I mean if he had been trained by Shado, Maseo and Yeoh Fei ( which we know he was not) then that would never have happened.Waller then drugs Oliver and he ends up on a plane with ARGUS men. They then kick Oliver in the face and throws him off the plane. So again where is the skill he supposedly has. He was never afraid of gunfire before ( when he ran at those armed goons with no skill on the amazo)and if he had extensive training from Slade and Shado then those ARGUS guys would have been no problem. And hes back on the Island.

4x02- Oliver is on the island again as per Wallers request. He uses a move he learned from Slade on this goon in fatigues , who clearly had no skill at all and did not even really fight back. Oliver is told by Waller to infiltrate the labor camp on the island. Okay now he going under cover, so where will he have time to learn ANY fighting here, and these guys are in no way going to teach him. They have no Martial arts background, they are just goons with guns. Then he gets taken to the camp goon leader. The leader gives Oliver a job because he thought that he was doing the surviving all alone, which he was not alone, but regardless Oliver obviously takes the job. Now Oliver is one of the goons with a gun.

4x03-Oliver is still playing goon with a gun, obviously under cover. He chases down a prisoner who tries to escape. He and the other goon drag the prisoner back . They question all the prisoners , and Conklin kills a prisoner. Oliver decides that the best way to get info is to torture a prisoner, a skill he was already good at via General Shrive, and learned from Waller, we saw that. The girl Tatiana , confesses to taking the drugs to save the other prisoner, Oliver intervenes and agrees to kill her himself. Oliver takes her through the woods, and leads the men following into a mine trap. He was shown to know where the mines were since Slade showed him and he accidentally stepped on one in Season 1.

4x04-Oliver takes Taiana ( think is how you spell her name) to the same cave Yeoh Fei brought him to. He then tries to convince Ridier/the baddie that the girl is dead. Saying he killed her. Then brings Conklin to the body, in which he has used the pressure point touch on Taiana, a skill Yeoh Fei never taught him, though Yeoh Fei did USE on him. Then Conklin finds the ARGUS tech left for Oliver.

4x05- Conklin confronts Oliver about the ARGUS tech. And now, Constantine is on the Island looking for some sort of septer. Now Constantine takes out Conklin with one punch, so we know these goons are just that, goons with guns. he takes Oliver hostage, and Oliver does nothing because he needs to maintain cover. Now Constantine gets the septer and then Constantine uses a spell to transfer his tattoo to Oliver.

4x06-Oliver takes Conklin and Baron Riter to the magic chamber. Riter finds some magic letters, or writing. Orders Oliver to take workers to a cove and find some sort of magic thing. Oliver and Conklin are at the cove, Oliver orders the prisoners to take a break and he goes to eat alone. Or rather goes to talk to Taianna. Conklin convinces Taianna’s brother to try and kill Oliver. Oliver brings dinner to Tianna , and asks about magic with her. Tells her he will return. Oliver goes back to the shore only to be attacked by the guy Conklin convinced to attack him. And yet again Oliver uses the same move he used on the drug dealer in Season 3 flash back, limited training he learned from Slade , on a guy who had zero training.

4x07-Oliver now finds out that he killed Tianna’s brother. Oliver and Conklin argue over the reason for killing Tianna’s brother. Riter uses magic on Conklin to find out he is lying. Oliver then whips Coklin. Then Oliver goes to tell Tianna her brother is dead but does not tell her that he is the one who did it. Then Oliver realizes that he needs a dive instructor to get to a map from inside the Amazo, which is half under water.

4x08- was all about Vandal Savage.

4x09-Oliver takes Tianna to the Amazo, admits that he is using her for her diving skills. Now Oliver free dives to the Amazo. Also id mention that Tianna literally mentions that “ i dont see how you can free dive after only an hour of instruction.”. now I’ll maybe give him that because if you can swim and have a good set of lungs , i suppose that is not that hard. Oliver gets the map from the Amazo , swims out and gets attacked right away by a shark. And gets caught by Conklin. How would Oliver have been able to learn anything if he is ill, injured and yet again locked up

4x10- Conklin is marching Oliver, who has a Shark bite in his side, along with Tianna back to the Baron’s camp to show that Oliver is in fact a traitor. Oliver collapes and needs Tianna to help him walk because he is losing lots of blood. The three of them are back in camp and Oliver is proven to be a liar and traitor. Conklin then Whips his back in return for Oliver doing it to him. Oliver’s Chinese/Mandarin tattoo starts glowing and the Baron guy decides that Oliver needs to be kept alive. Oliver takes Conklin’s gun and , barely being able to stand decides to turn the gun on himself. The Baron allows Oliver to live in return for helping him find what he is looking for. Oliver is then taken to the prison on the island , again needing Tianna to help him walk. Then he and Tianna are left alone so Tianna can tend to his wounds. How would Oliver have been able to learn anything if he is ill, injured and yet again locked up

4x11- Diggle Flash Backs about his brother.

4x12- Oliver is yet again chained up and being tortured , and is still injured from his Shark attack. The baron guy wants to know why Oliver wanted the maps that he stole from the Amazo wreckage. Then Oliver begins to halucinate that Shado is still alive and rescues him. Its only a vision , she tells him to continue the journey and go through his darkness. Seems his darkness is guilt.Oliver is awake now and still in the cell. And now he confesses that he killed Tianna’s brother. How would Oliver have been able to learn anything if he is ill, injured and yet again locked up

4x13- Oliver is still in the cell, still very sick and injured, Tianna is furious and wants to let him die. She takes the stone totem from him intending to give it to the Baron. The Baron does not care , he wants Oliver to live so he can use him. So he demands that Tianna care for him, if he dies in her care she will die. Tianna cares for Oliver. The two of them compare past losses. She tells him that he is shattered, that if he wants to save them he cannot do it shattered. The Baron tells them that what they are looking for is under their feet. Oliver has regain some strength. How would Oliver have been able to learn anything if he is ill, injured and yet again locked up

4x14- Oliver has healed it seems. and he is digging in some wall to find something of the Baron’s. The other prisoners want to kill Oliver, but Tianna intervenes. The prisoners decide that the only way for them to trust Oliver is for Oliver to kill Conklin. Oliver does not want to , but Tianna tells him that only monsters can fight monsters. Oliver has Conklin alone. They fight , but Oliver still is using the same moves that he learned from Slade in those “few months” ; also i would add that Conklin was on equal footing or rather skill because he blocked or dodged just about all of Oliver’s moves. Also it looked like Conklin had sliced Oliver’s leg.Then Oliver throws Conklin into a wall and the knife gets embedded into Conklin’s chest in the momentum.Oliver kills Conklin, and then gets locked up again. Again, how would he be able to learn any Martial Arts when he is now under constant watch , when he is being used as manual labor.

4x15- Oliver is still in a cell with Tianna. Oliver is limping via his leg would from Conlkin. Oliver, Tianna and the Baron are at the dig site in the prison and get visited by the spooky ghost/demon/apparition of Conklin. The apparition says that no one shall pass, the guards shoot it or rather through it. the Baron leaves Oliver and Tianna in the dig site alone with the apparition. The apparition says that Oliver is worthy to pass, once it sees the tattoo that Constantine gave Oliver. I’d like to add that without that tattoo he would have never been deemed worthy, because that is the reason the spooky ghost said he was worthy. Baron returns and Oliver is pissed at being left, then they all go into the spooky catacombs.

Then we are at another break. so we are already almost half through the fourth year of Oliver’s journey and he has yet to be trained in anything.

4x16- Oliver Tianna and the Baron Riter are exploring the catacombs. We learn a bit about the Barons past. They are looking at some sort of bust. The Baron then shoots one of , what was one of his own men, or another hostage. And once the man is dead, his soul , transfers into the statue/bust. the Baron wants to use the bust to control people, and decides to shoot all the prisoners .Oliver , with one punch knocks out a guard and then shoves the Baron against the stone wall and throws him to the ground. Oliver and Tianna then run off with the bust. They are running through the tunnels, Tianna tries to destroy the bust and nothing happens. The only way out is back the way they came and through the Baron. Some of the Barons goons show up and Oliver drops down from the ceiling, and takes out the 1st goon with the same moves he has been using from Season 1, two goons who have shown no ability to fight. And right before the 2nd shoots Oliver , Tianna hits him over the head with the bust. So while he is running with Tianna and hiding from The Baron, exactly when will he learn these Martial Arts skills? He cannot , because he will not have time and there is no one to train him.

4x17- Oliver meets with the Baron unarmed, then Tianna shows up with two hand guns , giving one to Oliver. Baron wants the idol , they will not give it to him. Tianna shoots him only to find out he cannot be hurt.Seems he now controls special energy that flows through all things,killing people to gain power. Oliver still refuses to give up the idol , then Baron then throws Tianna against a wall with his magic powers. Oliver tries to fight the Baron in hand to hand. Oliver loses badly. He used none of the supposed skills he learned from Shado or yeoh Fei, not even the limited skills he learned from Slade.He was literally just throwing punches ( i would like to add that The baron was using no magical powers) he was only throwing punches as well) Then he lifts Oliver off the ground with super strength or something. But the strentgh fails and he drops Oliver. And while the man is distracted Oliver punches him and knocks him out.Oliver then checks to see if Tianna is okay, she is , but when she wakes up they both realize that the Baron is gone.They realize that the Baron is now searching for the Idol , so they decide to go and kill all of his men and free Tianna’s friends, by killing the guards. So he has spent more time merely trying to stay alive , and no one to teach him more styles of martial arts.

4x18- Oliver is still in the caves with Tianna , telling her they are out numbered and that when they face the Barons men they cannot hesitate to kill. Oliver tells her about how he used to look at Laurels photo when he first arrived on the island , like she is doing with the photo of her brother. He tells her it reminded him of who he was, but that man would not survive on the island. It was what Yeoh Fei told him. ( that is one thing i do believe he got from Shado's father. that saying, that belief.) She agrees, and they both head off to take out the Barons men. Tianna screams to get the guards attention and runs out of the tunnel, telling the guards that the apparition of Conklin killed Oliver. Two of the Guards go in the tunnel and there is gunfire, Oliver kills the men with , an UZI and psitol . Tianna kills the last guard with her own pistol. The Oliver comes out of the tunnel and then uses the UZI and pistol to kill the other guards who show up from the side door. Tianna then goes to work on freeing the prisoners. ( I want to add that, Oliver in Season 2 flash back, on the boat was not afraid to run into the gunfire with only his bow and limited training from Slade. Again if he was trained by Shado, where were these fighting abilites now? he was in a tunnel and had places to hide) . The bodies then get dragged into the empty cells. Oliver shoots another guard that shows up. Some guards then show up via the upper level catwalk, and the prisoners with guns then fire back at them. Tianna kills one with her hand gun. Oliver moves by the door way that the guard is coming out of, smacks him in the faces with his gun then grabs him by the collar and trhows him to the ground, then shoots him. He tells the prisoners to get to the surface and go for the boats. Oliver decides to use the C4 to trap the Baron instead of trying to stop him. Oliver then preps the C4 to bring the catacombs down on the Barons head and trap him. He shows Tianna the picture he still has of Laurel. Tianna tells him that if he does not make it she will find Laurel and tell how he saved them all, and he must go to Russia to tell her parents about herelf and Vlad. Oliver fires off the C4 and buries the Baron inside the catacombs. He kills his own men and steals their life force or something to help him live.

4x19- was a flash back about Tommy's funeral.

4x20- no flashbacks.

4x21- Oliver and Tianna are in the middle of the camp while the Baron's men are dhooting everyone. Oliver shoots one guard in the back. Oliver then finds a map in the camp that shows a plane. He takes a back pack and a machine gun and he and Tianna run for it.They meet up with another prisoner, who tells them that they drove some of the guards off but the baron is sending reinforcements, the baron is alive. Oliver decides to stay behind and take on the baron alone. Oliver is standing in the middle of the camp later that night, waiting for the baron. The baron uses his magic to rip the machine gun out of Oliver's hand. And telekinetically throw him across the camp and through a hut. Oliver comes running back through and starts punching the baron. He literally punches him, then completely misses, and falls to the ground. The baron throws him, magically against another hut. Oliver then stabs him with a blade of some kind, which has zero effect, the Baron lifts him up off the ground by his neck. Oliver , before the baron stabs him, is saved by Tianna, who shoots the knife out of his hand. Both Oliver and Tianna unload the entire clips of both hand gun and machine gun into him. Oliver talls Tianna to get the Idol , then throws a gernade at the baron, which also has no effect. They take the idol and run. After Oliver and Tianna are on the run, Tianna is affected by the Idol.

4x22-Oliver and Tianna are still walking through the woods. Riters men get the drop on them and Oliver gets shot in the back. Tianna gets riddled with bullets. Oliver shoots the guys with his machine gun. Tianna is healed by the Idol power. So men put a bunch of holes in Tianna but only put a small hole in Oliver's arm? Tianna is now as crazy as Riter. She wants to use the idol's power to save her village/town in Russia to stop something called the Kovar. The whole area is a gun fight , people are shooting at each other. Oliver and Tianna come in firing, Tianna scares some men away with her glowing eyes. Oliver then tells the people to go to a plane that is east. He wants to help a injured man, she wants to shoot him. His death will make her stronger. Oliver takes the gun from her, she thinks she is the only one who can stop Riter. She needs the mans life force, his power. She then throws Oliver a huge distance, and snaps the injured man's neck.Tianna wants the idol back that Oliver now has, riter wants it as well, Tianna's eyes glow as she stands next to Oliver.

4x23-another week later and Oliver is still face to face with Riter, tianna behind him.Riter shoots Oliver in the leg. Oliver tells him that they plane overhead has all the prisoners on it. Riter tells him it does not, and he uses magic to destroy the plane. Tianna gets taken down by riter. Oliver takes Riters knife but gets thrown across the forest. Riter then uses the magic to start taking away Tianna's life force. She then counters , using it on him, then Oliver throws a knife into his back. Then Tianna starts to be affected by the magic she was using. Oliver tries to reason with her , but she throws him into a tree. She starts to choke him and tells him he is a murderer and darkness. She tells him to kill her. And Oliver mercy kills Tianna. The remaining prisoners from the island are furious with him. Oliver tells the people that the idol is responible and that Tianna asked him to kill her. Annd Amanda Waller shows up because Oliver radios her.Waller crates up the artifact and then sends it to some lab. And Oliver is off to Russia.

SO that is the end of Season 4 and Olvier spent the entire time undercover. No training at all.

We are now back and on to S5.

5x01- Oliver is in a fight ring , fighting for money it seems. Fighting some huge Russian guy. And he is dont even using the supposed skills he learned from Shado, Yoeh Fei and Maseo. Not even using the limited skills he got from Slade. In fact it is just a bunch of trading punches. And this Russian does not look to have any skill at all. He is getting the crap beat out of him.The to end it Oliver uses the exact same move he used on the petty drug dealer in S3, back in Star City flash back. Then gets tasered and captured by the Bratva. When we see him again he is tied to a chair and the Russian tells him that his Russian is terrible. So much for great Language skills. He tells Anatoly when he rescued Oliver from the Bratva, ( and Oliver needed rescuing. So much for skills there) Anatoly teaches him how to dislocate his thumbs to get free ( we actually see someone teach Oliver something. Shocking) . Oliver tells Anatoly that he is here to kill Kovar for Tianna. Anatoly takes Oliver to a gang of Russian bratva men. Who he now has to fight in order to begin the process of intitaiton into the bratva. They start hammering on him, and he gets his ass handed to him. One literally flips Oliver onto the ground and stabs him. None of these guys seem to have any skills,martial arts skills aside from that of thugs. And Oliver was trained for a few months by Slade and is losing this fight. You cannot give the “ he was out number excuse” because Oliver in the flash backs has been out numbered before, and still not used the supposed skills he learned from the others. BECAUSE he did not learn from any of them. This is the final year of the time Oliver was away and he still has not learned any of the stuff that he supposely knows in the present. Natural ability my ass.

5x02-When next we meet Oliver , he has lost the fight with the gang of Bratva guys. He and some others are taken to a warehouse of some kind. They have to ring a bell, but to do it they have to get through a few Bratva guys. Oliver gets hit really hard in the chest with a night skick of some kind. His Slade skills seem to be absent here, other wise he would have been able to take that guy. Given Slade was ASIS. The guy did not even try , he just swung and hit Oliver in the chest. And then as Oliver is attempting to get up the guy cracks him across the face. They continue the training, mele vesion. Men are being thrown and smashed against walls. This time around Oliver blocks a easy punch and cracks the guy across the face with a stick. Ducks another easy puch and punches the guy in the chest. And punches him in the face to drop him. Goes to help a man up and that man then kicks one of the offenders. And Oliver made a friend. Next we see them , all the inciates are down and Oliver gets kicked in the side while he is down. They all, including Oliver limp back to the “line”. Oliver concludes that they need to work as a team to diverte their attention in order to ring the bell. The others agree. The others dsitract the offenders , while Oliver ; dodging another easy swing gets by and rings the bell. Oliver makes it but wonce he does the others are executed because they did not. Oliver is upset bc he did not expect the others to be killed. Like WTF, who the hell do you think you are dealing with you idiot. Only person you can trust is yourself is what anatoly says. He reopens a wound and passes out. Zero martial arts skills he suppsoedly learned from Shado, etc are used. The limited stuff he got from Slade was of no use otherwise he would have no trouble with the Bratva guys and would not have needed the other initiats to help him. More bullshit flash backs to expain his god hood.

5x03- Oliver wakes up possibly days later from passing out via his reopening of his wounds. Oliver is questioning whether becoming Bratva was a mistake . Do you think? Oliver doesn't trust the Bratva because he thought the men that were killed in the bell test were inocent. He is told he can leave if he wants. Anatoly takes Oliver to meet a elderly woman who wanted the man who killed her son. The Bratva killed him, one of the men that was executed when Oliver won the bell test ; with their help. In order to defeat Kovar Oliver needs an army and apparently Bratva is the army; an army of thugs? Bratva means brother hood. Brother hood is everything. They will do anything for you. Oliver is to trust the brotherhood , but in the present cannot trust anyone? They are going to cut him up. They all take turns cutting him in a very specific point on his back. Oliver was wounded and was cut up even more, was not trained in anyway except maybe on taking injuries.

5x04- Oliver has passed the next test and now is in a van with Anatoly. He is still wounded, and could possibly pull out his stiches/sutchres. Second test was the knife thing, trusting his brothers ( which makes zero sense in the grand scheme of things). Oliver is going to go after a man that will get him closer to Kovar, man will be arraingned in the morning. He dumps vodka on Oliver to make it look like he has been drinking. Oliver has always been a drunk, rather had experience wtih hangovers so this won't be very difficult for him. And he gets him self arreseted.Oliver is now in jail with a bunch of Russian dudes and the guy that he is trying to get to. The guys name is Fretken ( something like that , its hard to hear.) The guy recognizes Oliver as Bratva. He punches the guy ( a guy unaware with no clear fighting skills ) in the chest or the throat. Given how he is choking , it looks like it was in the throat. The guy is not scared because clearly Kovar is scarier. But its a case of im in here with you not him. Oliver threatens his family instead of the man himself. Oliver tells him to choose between them and Kovar. He gives Oliver the IP address to the deaddrop site Kovar uses. Then Oliver uses the EXACT same move ( the one he uses every fucking season) the one that Slade taught him to snap the guys neck. No shit the same fucking move. The guards don't care to much and take the body out. Oliver comes back to the van and tells Anatoly that he killed the man , shows remores. Third test was apparently them trusting Oliver to do what they say. Oliver is now Bratva. Yet again No training for Oliver.

5x05- Oliver is brought before the Bratva leaders, basically they are questioning him. They want to see if he knows what it means to be Bratva. Basically he is noting but bratva. And now oliver is a mobster. So he went from a playboy to a survivor, to a freelancer , now to a mobster. Oliver and Anatoly drink to being survivors of the Amazo, in a Russian ( bratva run probs) bar. Victor doesn't trust Oliver , that he is truly Bratva and he is right. He still sees Oliver as an outsider. And Oliver and Anatoly drink again after Victor leaves. Still drinking. Soo Oliver still has not told Tianna's family that she is dead. Shcker. A girl in the bar is going to be hurt by fellow Bratva men and Oliver is going to intervene. Oliver is left in the alley way alone with Bratva members that hate him and work for Victor. The Girl was a trick. They slam Oliver against the wall and he gets beat on. So where was the Slade level skills there? He would never have been hurt like that had he been as good as Slade taught him. Oliver is saved by what i can only assume is the “human Target” because he starts speaking American.Correct it was the Human Target. Anatoly hired him to prtect Oliver and deal with Victor.

5x06-Oliver is sitting with Anatoly and teaching him to make a bomb, since he was in the KGB. Oliver states that he failed Chemistry twice in school, but apparently he does have magical powers to learn this, since presnent he knows it. Bullshit. He tells Oliver that he must become like a sponge, that bratva spends off hours learning many trades. More bullshit. He is going to learn this all in a few months. Then he screws up and nearly blows himself and everyone up. Anatoly saves the day by tossing it in a trashcan. So clearly Oliver is horrible at this. A car drives by and shoots up the place and Oliver tackles Anatoly to save him.Apparently Kovar declared war on the Bratva. Oliver is upset that Anatoly did not tell him that Kovar was planning this. Some high raking Bratva memeber arives ; Pakhan Gergor. They know who he is and seems they allowed him in, though Oliver thinks he earned his place. Gergor wants Oliver to be an investor to Kovar , to get closer to him. Once inside he wants Oliver to blow the new Casino up. Oliver is playing the Pre Oliver , telling them how to make the casino sucessful. Oliver has his Russian friend show the other guy the money then while he has his back turned slams the UNAWARE guy face first into a table. Removes the money tray and reveals a bomb, Then points out where to set the charges for maximum damage. Then as they are setting the charges a guy gets the drop on Oliver, hitting him over the head with a gun. (if Oliver was so extensivily trained by Shado, Maseo and Slade even Yao fei then that guy would never have gotten the drop on him.) Oliver is now strapped to a chair, getting beaten up by Kovars men.Kovar himself is there., telling him a story about his mother and grandfather. The story of the turnip is basically a story that the bratva will never take him down. He steps forward and snaps the neck of Olivers bratva pal. And apparently Kovar has known all about Oliver Queen. So the only thing that Oliver has learned is how to fail at making a bomb. And gets beat up by Russia thugs that again clearly have no skills other than that.

5x07- Oliver is now sitting at a table , tied up by Kovars men. They remove the hood and cut his hands free. Oliver is shaking and clearly been beaten/ tortured. Kovar states that Oliver has been tortured for a week straight. Oliver discovers that Tianna's mother is working as a maid for Kovar. Oliver believes that Tianna was right that Kovar is a monster. Kovar says diferently. Shocker. Kovar calls Oliver on killing geogor in the prison, calling Oliver a monster for blindly obeying the bratva. A lie so the Bratva could steal the mans buisness. Oliver gave a IPS black market site to the bratva , now they control it. Oliver stabs Kovar in the hand with a knife. The guards pull a gun on Oliver, he then demands that Kovar get him out of there. So if Oliver is such a master fighter bad ass; extensivly trained by Slade, Yao fei , Shado and Maseo, then how was he not able to easlity take them down and get out himsel? And all the sudden Oliver is behind Kovar. Saying he will open his throat if he twitches. And Oliver is limping as well. He has 2 guns , one pointed at the men behind him and one pointed at Kovars back. Oliver then runs into three more men with guns. Kovar implies that the Bratva were merly using him for what little value Oliver could provide. Or option 3 Oliver is too weak to know the differene. I.E Oliver was never really Bratva, and an idiot. Truth and shocker. Kovar then easily takes the gun from Oliver. Oliver then surrenders, When if he really was such a extensivly trained bad ass then he could have easily busted out. Oliver is being held by two men in the same hallway , swaying on his feet. Oliver challenges Kovar, then gets elbowed in the face for his trouble by Kovar. Oliver goes down. Kovar commands his men to stay out if it, they do. Kovar then Punches Oliver twice exteremly hard once in the face then in the stomach. Once more in the face.Oliver takes a swing and Kovar blocks it and reigns down another punch. Punches Oliver across the face again, then he gets turned around and held in a chock hold. Then Kovar throws Oliver to the floor. Oliver then gets up and starts blocking like a boxer. Preventing Kovar from getting a shot to his sides or face. Oliver then blocks a punch from Kovar and lands a pucnh to Kovars gut. He ducks another Punch from Kovar and lands a punch of his own in Kovars face. Then another. (id also add that these are all the same type of punches oliver used in his fight with Slade, nothing but haymakers. Not the supposed extensive fighting skills gained by training with Slade,etc.) Kovar then gains the upser hand again, blocking Olivers next punch. Then lands two more of his own dropping Oliver to the ground again. Kovar then yanks Oliver up to his knees and is about to punch him when a member of the Bratva arrives. He basically confirms what Kovar stated that the Bratva are in league with Kovar. Oliver is barely standing on his knees. I.E Oliver is a moron. So once again if Oliver was so extensivly trained by Slade, Shado , Maseo and yao Fei in fighting then why is it he is getting his ass handed to him by these Russian thugs. He should have been able to easily taking them down.

5x08- crossover ep

5x09-Oliver S1 present Flash Back.

5x10 – Oliver is taken by the Bratva guys and they are interogating him, Oliver is introuble for just trying to kill Kovar but not for the bratva, Oliver turns it around saying they , the bratva are betraying the Bratva brotherhood for having a deal with Kovar. Kovar is a government agent. Oliver vendetta betrays the bratva, the Bratva leaders deal benifets the brotherhood. This guy is ( captain i think) and he is going to get oliver to obey , even if it means to beat it into him.Guy finds a pic of Laurel , and thinks the vendetta is about Laurel. Oliver explains Laurel's picture. Oliver thinks he has been made into a mosnter. The Bratva Captain may have betrayed the Bratva, Kovar has him on his payroll. They then start beating him. Oliver has only been in Russia for a few months, and apparently thinks he knows everything. Shocker. Oliver does not believe that the Bratva Captain is playing Kovar. Oliver does not understand that circumstance makes a thing posion or Nector . ( weird line) Without the island Oliver would be a harmless american douche bag. Obviously. Oliver has to give his obediance or he dies. Again obviously. Before he can kill Oliver, shots are heard and arrows as well. Bratva guy/Captain takes Oliver hostage to use as a shield. An arrow is fired and hits the guy, pinning his hand to the wall as well as throwing him against it as well. ( BS.) A woman appears in LOA gear and it looks like Laurel but is actually Talia Al Ghul .She only says “ Hello, Mr. Queen my name is Talia. Ive been Looking for you. “ she does not yet say her last name. Hopefully not. Because that would make zero sense. She has an accent and WAY cooler gear than Nyssa. So once more. If Oliver is so extensivly trained by Slade,Shado and Maseo in fighting then how did he get his ass handed to him by these Bratva thugs? Why did he need Talia to rescue him? And present wise: “ Im a quick study”? That is utter Bullshit, these flash backs prove otherwise.

5x11-The Talia ep. Basically Talia trained Yao Fei and he was LOA; Seriously!? And Talia is an archer ( shocking with this show). She wants to train Oliver, and they make a deal; she helps him take down a man from the Bratva/Russia and he will listen to what she has to say. Talia fires an arrow and draws the gaurds to her. Oliver takes on the main guys. Oliver takes one easy henchman down and uses him as a shield. Then shoots the other ones. Throws one guy like hurls him. And then shoots him. Using none of the supposed fighting skills he has learned. Takes on a few more using the skills he learned from Slade. Knees one guy into a car using what is similar to the anarky fight steroids. Oliver then beats the leader to death with a gun while Talia smiles. Really did she even do anything. She fired one arrow to what distract them? And now that he has killed the guy she and Oliver can talk. Talia baited him to get Oliver to remember who he is, a monster. Oliver's father wrote a list of all the Kovars, etc in Star City. But Oliver keeps looking for other fights. She tells Oliver she has been there ( she was afraid of what her father wanted for her.) She pulls out his S1 present suit, she gave him it. She tells him that when the monster becomes someone else, something else that he is free to be Oliver Queen. WTF! Also utterly disappointing because it would have been cooler if he made the suit and bow himself. Talia will help him become ready. UGH

5x12- So Apparently within 1 episode Oliver can remember that he can catch an arrow and throw an enemy up into a ceiling?? Apparently “ believing in the dark and embracing it means he can instantly become a weapon?” BS. So apparently his other teachers agreed that Oliver was not that great of a student. Talia found him because she wants him to correct his mistakes. To return home. Oliver hunts down one of the men on the “list “ and kills him in cold blood. He failed starling city. It seems once again we are to assume that Oliver trained with Talia and became a fantastic student in like one episode? He is basically doing the same shit as previous seasons. No actual training. He crosses off a name on the list. Talia wants him to honor the vow he made to his father and not the Bratva. Oliviver wants to talk to anatoly. Anatoly is beaten up, badly. Gregor did it to him because he questioned his deal with Kovar. Oliver wants to kill Gregor. Oliver was going to leave the Bratva. LITERALLY no training. So apparently Talia is just teaching him to become a monster; to embrace the darkness?

5x13- Wild dog flash backs.

5x14-Oliver is planning to take down Gregor with Anatoly in the infirmary ( medical facility?) , to take down gregor and a bathhouse. Anatoly says no, that bathouse is gregors turf. That they need an army. Basically they need an army loyal to only Anatoly. Oliver tells him that he will stay until he takes out gregor. Anatoly then realizes that Oliver has changed his mind about the bratva brother hood thing. Anatoly states that Oliver is the “sin eater” . Oliver notices that the same orderly has passed by the room 5 times. Gregor is about to attack.. Oliver takes Anatoly through the hospital, a guy pops out and fire a gun , Oliver and Anatoly duck into a corridor with stairs. The Russian THUG ( who only has a gun and clearly no training.) enters the same stair way, where Oliver takes him by surprise, and throws him against the wall,and hits him in the troat. Then takes his gun. They make their way down the stairs, and Oliver ( somehow knows there is a guy coming when there is no sound) turns and shoots the second guy coming through. They make it through to the basement area, through some plastic stips. They see another guy coming behind them and take cover. Anatoly states that the coup against gregor maybe short lived. Oliver states that they are going to have to make a run for it. ( okay why? If Oliver is supposedly this bad ass fighterand killer already? If he is supposedly so extensively trained by the past people) 2 guys? Oliver is going to run from 2 guys? Greogor himself is there and states that he will forgive him if he hands over Oliver. Oliver is about to surrender, because if he does Gregor will spare Anatorly. Okay again Oliver is afraid of these guys? When he is supposedly so extensively trained?? Only one will get out alive. Anatoly states that he is not going to let Oliver suffer for his sins. Oliver gets up and is about to surrender. Oliver puts his gun down. Oliver reaches forward and grabs the gun from the worst trained Bratva guy ever. Then uses him as a human shield as he shoots the other men. Not anything we have not seen before in S1. Anatoly tries to reach for a gun but Gregor stops him and puts a gun to his head. Obviously Oliver is going to shoot Gregor. Oliver yet again has not trained at all with Talia or anyone. All Talia has really done is give Oliver a verbal push into the right direction, something that he SHOULD have already known.

5x15- Oliver saves Anatoly by coming up behind gregor and pointing a gun at him. Instead of simply shooting him?? More men show up and Oliver is outnumbered. Anatoly is guilty of brining in an american to the brotherhood. Anatoly challenged Gregor and the Bratva agree because of the code. Basically Anatloy called Gregor to account and the others examine him, if he keeps the position Oliver and Anatoly die. Oliver goes to get evidence on Gregor. Breaking into Kovars home. Oliver drops in from the ceiling in his S1 Arrow suit.Turns on a coputer ( is Kovars office?) a Computer that is not even secure?? seriously?? Kovar has armed men every wear gaurding his house, but does not secure his computer? Turns out the gregor exam is basically everyone votes for a Bratva Captain. Gregor or Anatoly. They all side with Gregor until Oliver bursts in.Apparently Gregor had 40 million rubles that he did not spread to the brotherhood and now the bratva have changed sides. Annnd a shootout insues.

5x16- Gregor has more power and men than Anatoly and Oliver, and the Bratva. A civil war has ensued. Oliver says they need to kill him. Oliver is going to use the hood persona to find and kill Gregor. ( It should be noted that Talia is no longer in Russia at this point and has not been seen since 5x12 flashbacks. So he no longer has her as a supposed teacher.) Victor apparently has found Gregors location and Oliver is now dressed as the hood. Oliver tells anatoly that he met a woman ( Talia ) and she taught him how to give his darkness an idetitiy. So all Talia really did was give him a suit, a bow and tell him to take a codename, as well as a verbal kick in the pants to get him to go home. Anatoly ( correctly tells Oliver ) that he cannot simply put on a suit and take a codename to seperate the darkess from him. The darkness is there. Its him, a part of him. Oliver is an idiot as per usual and beleives her. Puts his hood up. Anatoly tells him again that he is wrong that Talia is wrong , that she will be the source of his greatest pain. Gregor is at the ice rink watching hockey practice. Telling his men that they need to convene the Bratva to tell them that they have traitors in their mist. ( this is the broad daylight) There is gunfire heard. Two men go up the stairs to the hallway and open the door leading to the bleachers. They find to Bratva men dead with Arrows in their chest. As the guard turns to go back to gregor or continue checking. He is shot with an arrow. Two men with guns are walking through the stadium hallway Oliver shoots one with an arrow and the other guy turns and while his back is turned Anatyoly (??) comes up behind him and takes him down with a sleeper hold, and snaps his neck. Oliver does his growly voice and Anatoly is looking at him like what the hell are you doing. Gregor still sits in the bleachers wondering what is going on and why his men are taking so long. He sends three more men. Then ( this is utterly stupid.) Anatoly is at the top of the bleachers firing his gun at the Bratva men loyal to Gregor. And Oliver ( who is SUPPOSEDLY soo extensivily trained) is running beind him Not to mention Anatoly just stands their shooting while Gregors men are smart and take cover. Anatoly takes out at least 3 men. One makes it onto the ice. But gets hit by Oliver's arrow from the other side. Oliver had made it to the otherside and fired his arrow. He jumps down into the ( penalty box?) and gets takled on the way down. The roll, the guy takes a swing at Oliver. Oliver catches his arm and forces it into his chest. He then cuts his throat wtih either the mans own knife or his own arrow. Then jumps onto the ice and runs across. Slides and then takes out another man who made it to the ice with an arrow. Oliver fires an arrow at Gregor , who was attempting to flee. Oliver then jumps into where gregor fell. Gregor then says ( this is the stupidest fucking thing ever) “oliver is that you”?? Seriously?! You are looking rght up at him and he has no mask. Olivers then says no its the man who is going to kill you. Gregor tells him you kill me you kill your self. Oliver then rips out the arrow.

5x17- Oliver and Anatoly bring a seriously injured Gregor back to the bar. They are going to help him so he can tell them what Kovar is up to. Oliver begins to pull the bullets out of Gregors arm. Everyone will wither and die at Oliver's touch according to gregor. Gregor is dead and they need a new Bratva Captian. Anatoly is the new Bratva Captain because he has senority. Anatoly has to meet with Kovar as the new Captain otherwise something will be up. Oliver is going to meet with Tianna's mom in order to find out about Kovars plans. One of Kovar's men appears with a gun and olver easily gets it from an older Russian man and kills him. And apparently Merlyn is working with Kovar, maybe to help him create the Earthquake device. Becuase why would he otherwise. Kovar wants to overthrow Russian government. Instead of going home Oliver is going to help the Bratva stop Kovar. Becasue apparently now he actually cares about his brotherhood. Oliver as Hood/Russian goes to the docks to stop Kovar. Anatoly tells Oliver its pretty easy to think first and kill people later. Kovar has access to Sarin Gas, most likely from Merlyn.Oliver fires an arrow off and hits some drumbs which may have already been filled with explosives as Kovar arrives. Fire fight ensues. Kovar tells his men to beware of the Sarin Gas, but purposely aims for the canisters releasing the gas and killing a bratva member. Oliver then enters the fray using a move that ( apparently he learned via ossmosis from Talia?) grabbing one guy and hopping up and wrapping his legs around the other and bringing them both down. Again non trained Russian thugs with guns. And puts an arrow in each of them.Oliver kills the truck driver , but Anatoly has been taken by Kovar, thrown aside. And now Kovar has the truck. Victor is wondering where oliver was when he gets back to the bar. Vicotr wants to honor the deal with Kovar but Oliver knows that Kovar will kill all of them when he takes out the government. Oliver is going to torture one of Kovar men as the hood. Oliver is going to skin the guy alive if he doesn;t talk. A technique apparently Talia taught him? That i can believe since she seems to be only talking. Anatorly is freaked out by what Oliver becomes. Oliver knows where Kovar is. Anatorly says that the mask and hood change nothing that Oliver is a monster ( truth). The guy gave up easliy and Oliver kept going, he is a monster. Kovar is going to kill key members of the government with Sarin Gas at his casino. Oliver goes to see Tianna;s mom. Oliver tells her that her children are dead. But does not say that he was the one who did it. Oliver sneaks into the casino, taking out non trained Russians as he goes. Kills both gaurds in the control room, an arrow to the chest each. Two guys who are the worst trained gaurds ever. Oliver sees that Tianna's mom is being held buy Kovar. And Goes to help. Vidotr betrays Anatorly and them. Shocker. Oliver finds Tianna's mom dead. Oliver simply walks through the halls and fires off arrow into the worst gaurds ever. And apparently has steriods back then becuase he lifts a guy up off the ground and slams him into a wall? Yeah right. Kovar BS's the government members and begins to gas them. Oliver merely walks into the room and fires two arrows into the guys gaurding the gas, again worst gaurds ever. And shuts off the gas, and then is confronted by Kovar. Oliver fires two arrows into Kovars guys. Perfectly aimed ?? again yeah right. Oliver tries some jump move and fails. They trade blows, and Kovar gets oliver into a sleeper hold. Annnd gets the hood off, disovering its oliver. Oliver gets slammed into a shelf and is being strangled. By a boxer.And he is supposeldy trained by Talia and Slade.He mocks Tianna and her family and then Oliver gets the upper hand and flips them after shoving Kovar up against the same shelf. Victor is dead via Sarin Gas. Oliver throws Kovar into the room that was gased ( apparently only Victor dies in a room full of Sarin Gas?? BS. They trade blows again And Kovar gets Oliver onto the table. Kovar actually displays a grapling move and gets oliver down and has his leg. Oliver gets free ( and will probs suddenly know said move.) Oliver then gets the upper hand and swings himself up onto Kovars shoulders. Flipping them to the ground. Kovar gets a hold of a knife and stabbes Oliver. Oliver gets the upper hand again cutting Kovar with his own knife. Kovar is on his knees and oliver killed him because he could. Oliver is now Bratva Captain because he killed Kovar. BS since it was supposed to be about seniority. Apparently it as so all Bratva would know what kind of man he is. A killer. Seems Anatoly knows what Prometheus knows , that the Arrow/hood is a lie so Oliver can kill becuase he likes it. Anatoly also knew that it would fall apart. Merlyn helps Kovar. ( id guess the shit from JB's comic is now coming into play.UGH)

5x18- Oliver decides to go back to Lian yu to make it look like he was on the island for 5 years. He gives Anatoly 48 hours. Anatoly wants Oliver to help him do a hiest to get medicne for sick Russians. Oliver drops in from the roof and starts killing zero trained security gaurds with his arrows. First one he drops right on top of and wraps his arm around then stabs him with an arrow in the chest. Second he goes under, pushing away the guys gun and stabbing him in the chest with an arrow, then used him as a human shield. Last one he bounces off a shelf and then tacles the other by going over him and flipping him over himself, lifts him up and snaps his neck.

5x19-NO Oliver flashbacks.

5x20- S4 present day flashbacks

5x21- Oliver and Anatoly return to Lian Yu to make it look like Oliver was there for the whole 5 years. Oliver learned to fly via his father from vintage planes. Oliver places an Arrow into the mask of Slades former mask.Oliver visits the graves of his father, yao fei , shado, etc. They talk about how and why he becomes the hood. And that others will pay for Oliver's sins. Anatoly is to contact a fisherboat and make them come to the island to collect Oliver in 48 hours. And he is going to fake the the beard as well. Anatoly left. And as oliver gets the bone fire ready , Kovar shows up and tranqs Oliver.

5x22—Oliver spends the entire episode being tortured and halucinating various past/flashback frineds. So no training, not learning. And serious injuries. To the point where he almost kills himself with a gun that only has ONE bullet in it. Also he was given a drug that messes with his mind, making him relive past injures as if they were happening for the first time.

5x23—Oliver voice over. Kovar and his men discover Oliver is missing, that he has escaped. He orders his men to find him but no one is allowed to kill him but Kovar. Oliver is running through the forest straight to the box with his bow and suit, so he can get ready for when the PLANNED boat to come get him. So he can make it look like he was there for 5 years. But Kovars men find him, pointing AK-47s at him. Oliver starts to get down on his knees then suddenly goes low and shoves all 3 at the waist and grabs a knife from the middle guys belt. Stabbs him in what looks to be his throat. Then does nothing more than slash the second guys throat with a horizontal strike. And stabs the third in the chest. NONE of these three were trained men. And Olivers moves were not that of someone who was extensively trained by Slade/Shado/Yao Fei or Shado. Oliver then takes the AK-47 and unloads and kills three more men. No special martial arts moves just a gun. Kovar says ( after learning Oliver killed 6 men) that he is going to end this. Two men are still looking for Oliver and come upon the AK he used pointed barrel up, stuck in the ground. One if these men ( the stupidest, non trained men ever) kneels down and suddenly one of the booby traps ( from S3 present) goes off and a swinging log with spikes impales him. ( when exactly did Oliver find time to do that? It was not in S1, nor S2, S3 he was in China, S4 he was playing undercover man , and he was in Russia for majority of S5 unitl these final few days ; Of which he was being held and tortured. This is bullshit. No way in any of these years would he have time to do this) . The other guy having avoided said trap, gets taken down buy Oliver using ( get this?? ) the same fucking move that Oliver does ever time. The one from the pilot 1x01 present when he says “ no one can know my secret” Is this the only move Oliver knows in the “ 5 years of hell” It looks like it. And oliver takes the mans AK and begins looking for Kovar and his buddy. Suddenly he hears a helicopter. That begins to strafe him, firing repeatedly at him, Oliver runs and takes cover behing a tree stump. Runs again and gets fired at again, takes refuge again behind a fallen log. Then Oliver fires back ( this utterly illogical and stupid) and the pilot of the chopper just sits there , hovering in the air and lets himself be shot at. Instead of moving the chopper away. BS. The chopper goes down. Oliver then goes to investigte to make sure they are dead. Finds Kovar there, injured and getting up. Oliver tries to kill hm by simply firing the AK. But he is out of ammo. Oliver takes off his jacket and starts to walk forward to him to kill him. Kovar is still down, his arm/shoulder injured. He lashes out, he was faking, and slices Oliver in the chest with some sort of blade. Kovar then lunges at oliver with a horizontal downward strike, with his right hand going down to the left. That Oliver blocks with his own right hand and knockes it out of his hands using his right hand. Kovar throws a left cross, which Oliver ducks. Kovar then comes up with his right arm/hand again , Oliver catches it and ducks out of the way, as its revealed Kovar has a gun, the gun fire goes off to Olivers right side. Oliver then grabs his wrist and gun attempting to get the gun from Kovars right hand. Only for kovar to use his own other hand to force the gun into Olivers chest. And forces him back against a tree with the barrel still against his chest. Oliver then manages to force the gun and Kovar back and knees him in the gut. He wrenches sideays and gets the gun out of Kovars hand. While he does this Kovar then comes at him with his left hand in a cross, Oliver ducks it. Then Oliver punches him in the chest three times . He then tries to throw a punch at kovars face, the first one is blocked by Kovar, the second lands across his face. He is then grabbed by kovar, literally just grabbed like the last few punches did not phase him. ( not surprising since he wiped the floor with Oliver once already and was nothing more than a boxer) He grabs Oliver and across the chest with both arms and forces Oliver back onto the still burning helicopter.Which then burns his back. Then just tosses Oliver away. Kovar takes a swing with his left arm that Oliver blocks , he swings with his left which Oliver blocks. He tries to grab for Oliver to then punch him, Oliver uses his elbow to block and force it away. Then Kovar comes at him with his right arm Which Oliver also blocks. He then pucnches at Kovars chest with his right arm, Kovar Blocks that. Oliver manages to grab Kovar around the chest and neck and spins him and throws him to thr ground. Then Oliver runs at him ( does a bull shit move he was never taught at all.) he grabs Kovars shoulders and jumps up wrapping his left leg against Kovars waist and his right around his kneck. Then swinging his own body away flips Kovar to the ground.While falling to the ground himself. Kovar takes a swing at Oliver ( after getting up) with his left arm which Oliver catches and then uses his own right arm and grabs Kovar with the other under Kovars right arm and takes his kneck, then flips him to the ground again. Oliver then grabs Kovar around the kneck in a sleeper hold, then as he tries to snap his kneck ( apparently Oliver cannot do it like that??) switches to his good old fashion every flashback season move: 1x01 present pilot “ you cannot know my secret: kneck snap. And Kovar is dead. Oliver then gets changed and makes it off the island like we see in 1x01.

So S5 Oliver yet again learned ZIP fighting. He was trained by Talia to become something else; mentally. She taught him stratagey. But she did not teach him to fight. Oliver got his ass handed to him repeatedly by Russian thugs who are not trained, when he himself was supposedly oooh so extensvily trained by Shado, yao fei , and Slade, and Maseo. BULL SHIT

Oliver was only trained by Slade between S1/2 for a few months.

Oliver was trained by Shado between S1/2 for a few months with the bow ( he trained the rest of the time by himself at S2 end.

Oliver was NOT trained by Maseo or Tatsu , She only taught him a breathing technique.

Oliver was NOT trained by anyone in S4 and spent the first half of the time getting his ass handed to him by a petty drug dealer. Then the second half undercover back on the island.

Oliver was NOT trained in S5 by the bratva because he spent the entire time either getting his ass handed to him BY them, or simply firing guns. Talia taught him statagey, and to become another person.

So Season 1 maybe a bit of training , maybe like a day or at least a couple of weeks . But as Slade says, he had LIMITED sucess training Oliver. Shado attempted, but in little amount of time was only able to teach him the Bow. He in no way was trained by Yeoh Fei,

Season 2 a bit more eskriima training and a few more months of Slade training, But I reiterate you cannot become an expert in only a few months. He had no training from Shado either otherwise we would have seen those skills, against the people that he fought. Plus she was killed right away. Then Slade went nuts for the majority of the Season.

Season 3 no training at all and he is still at season 1-2 level. Oliver and CO spent the majority of the time running, doing missions , Oliver torturing people, then running after Shrieve trying to stop the virus.

And now Season 4 he is back on the island and he is still at that level and under cover. So there would be no time to train or rather be taught, and who exactly is going to teach him? The labor soldiers who have to skill and are already suspicious of him?

S5 was nothing more than Oliver brawling in fight clubs. Of which he was using NONE of the supposed extenive skills he learned from past teachers. If he as soooo well trained by them , why were these Russian thugs kicking the crap out of him using easy moves that Oliver should have been able to deflect. It also turns out that Oliver had a wig and a fake beard to make it look like he was on the island, and the booby traps were Bullshit.

I even tried to reason in Off screen training, but that still does not mach up . Because if he was trained off screen by Maseo, Slade, Yeoh Fei and Shado Talia then when we see him fight on screen he should be at their level or very near to it ,but his clearly not. All of his on screen fighting is horrible and at limited level and in no way matches any of them and definitely not present Oliver.

That is past level training that in no way matches up or equals Oliver being the 'Expert’ fighter that we see in the present. The only thing that these flashbacks actually show us is how he got most of his scars and how he met various people, there has never been any training. He had one jump kick that he used in present on the new “count’, on the roof top, that was USED on him by Maseo. So because it was USED on him that means he knows how to do it? there was never any training from Maseo, again if there was wouldn’t flashback Oliver have used it when fighting? He did not. Then there was the pressure point tough that Yeoh Fei USED on him in 1x12. So again, because it was USED on him he knows it? that is ridiculous. There was no way for him to have taught it to him given he was captured before that , and as of 1x12 he was working for the bad guys. And the times before that he was treating Oliver for the arrow he himself put through him.

There was never really time for Shado to have trained him, again when they first met they were trying to stay alive, she only had time to teach the Bow. Then , in her words , ” a few months" later Oliver had been trained more by Slade, but clearly not that extensively because he was still not that great of a fighter. Then immediately Shado gets killed in Season 2, So there was never any time for her to teach him. All the moves that are in the present that Oliver uses are the ones that Yeoh Fei used ON him, NOT actually taught to him.

Then Slade is critically injured in the beginning of Season 2, then gets the super drug and goes nuts for the rest of the Season. Slade only had a few months to teach Oliver, and it was not a lot. because you cannot master martial arts in a few months. And Oliver clearly did not.

The only thing that Tatsu taught Oliver was that breathing exercise. She hated Oliver for the majority of the Season until the end. She did not teach him anything. And Maseo spent the majority of the time beating the crap out of Oliver in the beginning, and if Oliver was trained by Yeoh Fei, Shado or had even more training from Slade;which he did not, then Maseo would not have been a problem. Plus with all the missions that Waller had them doing, the torture she had Oliver preform, Maseo going missing, Tatsu getting captured, Oliver getting captured again by Waller and tortured, then working for shrieve, running from Waller , then running after Shrieve, trying to stop the virus, looking for the cure and failing. Exactly when would Maseo would Maseo have had time to teach Oliver? He did not.

Now as to the present practicing/training that we see Oliver do, i believe that he is practicing what he knows. But again where did he learn all this? Because it was not from the people he met in the 5 years he was gone. A lot of what he is practicing looks like “Wing Chung”, the dummy that he always uses. Now it takes years upon years to master that, you cannot just do it in a year or even the 5 missing years that he was gone. Because with everything that was happening , when would he have had the time? Plus, if he decided to learn it present time, exactly how would he have the time then either? He was always out on the streets killing the people “poisoning his city”, or trying to pretend to be Oliver Queen to his family. There is no way that he could become an expert in that in just a year or even the missing time, because you can’t.

Then in Season 2 Oliver supposedly learning Jui jitsu when he got back in season 2 , present time, give the amount of time he spends out on the streets and dealing with family. I will never believe that he was able to become and expert in that.

Then in Season 3 he spends the duration from 3x20-3x21 in Ra’s Al Ghuls care, so that’s maybe a couple of weeks .Then he comes out of there equal to Ra’s? No that is also ridiculous , there is no way he could have became equal to Ra’s, a man who was virtually immortal and had decades, if not centuries of training. The only thing that Merlyn taught Oliver was the sword for some time, maybe a couple of months. That i maybe can believe, but not at all do i believe that it would have allowed him to defeat Ra’s. Ra’s had lifetimes worth of training. Oliver has a few months worth, a year at the most.

S4 Oliver trained with his team a few times.

S5 we saw practcally nothing.

None of Oliver’s training matches or equals him being this Expert/Master Martial Artist that can defeat all these opponents when he really only had , in Shado’s words “ a few months” of training from Slade. I will never believe that he is , as Oliver said “ a weapon” , with the actual training that he got , its unrealistic and unbelievable .

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