#mad about Dany and Arya being better Tumblr posts

[daenerystargaryen06]

Can antis like, keep away from Daenerys please?

I'm so tired of seeing people writing out crap that Daenerys will be the villain, Jon is better, she is mad, calling her Danielle, yada yada. Just say you don't like her (because she is ultimately better than your fave) and go.

I'm also tired of seeing people giving the Starks (especially Sansa) her traits. I've seen edits of people making Sansa a Targ, people talking about how she'll get Daenerys' dragons, that Jon will kill Dany for her, etc.

Just keep Daenerys' name out of your mouth if you hate her and can't stand that she is strong, independent, and has an amazing character arc. A majority of Daenerys fans don't like other asoiaf characters, but you hardly see any of them going on a tangent about how much they hate that character. Usually it's us Dany fans defending anti hate against Dany and also defending antis hate on Dany to prop up their own fave (mainly Sansa).

I heavily have a high disdain for show!Sansa (she's alright in the books, not my fave but she's much better compared to the garbage that is her show character). But I don't go out of my way to hate on her, diss her character, write pointless metas about her going "mad", "evil", or "dark". Nor do I see any other Dany fan doing so. We don't hate on Sansa to prop up Dany. We don't give Dany character traits of other characters/Sansa. We don't speculate about how she'll die or get killed or manipulated by another man. It's disgusting.

It's also disgusting seeing anti hate towards Arya. Arya is my second favorite female character in asoiaf. She isn't ugly, she isn't crazy or some violent murderer, she isn't going to be permanently warged into Nymeria and become Sansa's; nor is she going to become Sansa's assigned assassin to kill all her enemies while Sansa and Jon live in lala land. It's not going to happen.

It is so disgusting how a vast majority of Arya and Dany fans don't do half the things their antis/Sansa stans do, yet they go out of their way to bash these wonderful characters to prop up their own fave or to get them out of the way for Sansa or Jon (mainly Jon fans who bash Daenerys to prop Jon up and cheer Jon for killing her).

We can talk about our faves without bashing another character, making metas about them that don't even follow the text, and just being outright nasty.

Do better. Just keep away from Daenerys and Arya.

[horizon-verizon]

There’s absolutely nothing thematically strong or subversive about a 15 year old ex bridal slave dying to save the world or “going mad” butchered on a man’s sword so her corpse can be the stepping stone upon which a he can fulfill his destiny. Daenerys’ life is 13 years of orphaned and impoverished exiled, being terrorized and sexually and physically abused by her brother, under the guardianship of a man who wanted to rape her, being sold into sexual slavery by her own brother to a 30 years old warlord, being raped to the point of feeling suicidal, losing her child through an extremely painful stillbirth, and only having ~3 years of autonomy (and still being subject to patriarchal violence, e.g. her arranged marriage to Hizdahr).

A teenage girl who’s known nothing but suffering and tragedies who fights for those who can’t fight for themselves and is committed to making a better world for the downtrodden going mad or dying while everyone else lives happily isn’t bittersweet, it’s nihilistic, sad, misogynistic and an awful message to girls who stand up for themselves everywhere.

“Bittersweet ending” well yeah let Jaime or the Starks die to save humanity, I thought Jaime’s bland ass was on a “redemption” arc and the Starks were heroes. To be honest, that wouldn’t be bittersweet it would be a victory for me personally, I’m popping the biggest bottle when we reach that page 🤭

...I'm not against Jaime's death 🤐. But I want Arya to live. Sure, Sansa, too, a lot's happened to her.

I agree, Dany must live. There's simply nothing I disagree with here. In fact i said some of what you say here in a recent post abt Dany dying.

[swallowtail-ageha]

Scrolling through your asoiaf tag and you have such good and correct opinions like how can anyone love just Dany or just Sansa or just Arya like how can anyone not see the parallels between Dany and Sansa it makes me feel so crazy like why are there so few people who love all the girlies?? I genuinely love every single female POV character and can’t imagine hating any of them. I mean sure yeah Cersei is a villain but you’re telling me her tragedy doesn’t touch your heart? Watching this woman desperately try to avoid her prophecy as it unfolds before you doesn’t have you in a death grip? Or like are you unmoved by Sansa telling an annoying snotty little boy how brave he is because she wants him to feel better? Dany comforting Missandei when her brother dies? Arya getting to the house of the black and white and immediately thinning to being a man a cup of water (or at least what she thought was water)? How about Sansa telling Joffrey she hopes Robb cuts his head off? Dany sassing the man who wants to open the fighting pits? Arya telling Jaquen to kill himself? Like please come on. All three girls are obviously different but they share so many very endearing traits. I am fiercely holding tight to my delusion that Dany and Sansa will bond over stories and songs and Arya will teach Dany about all the flowers in Westeros and then Sansa will show them how to make flower crowns and embroider little emblems on Arya’s clothes

First of all tysm!!!!

The whole arya vs sansa vs dany fandom fight frustrates me to no end, mainly because all parties involved seem to have little to no empathy to the characters whose stans they oppose. It's all maliciously extrapolating some parts of the text to make them see worse than what they are (ex: daenerys' "if i look back i am lost" getting twisted from "dany knows that dwelling on what ifs and turning your back after you have taken a commitment will only damage you in the long term" in "dany doesn't want to reflect on her past mistakes and will go mad and get stabbed to death" or sansa getting frustrated at sweetrobin being a sign of her being ableist and classist while it's. Just a normal reaction of a stressed and traumatized 13 yo who is otherwise very sweet to her cousin)

For loving the female characters same! Even those who commit outwardly villainous acts do get lots of humanizing moments, Cersei, as awful as she is, is simply a product of the hyper misogynistic society she lives in plus years of parental and spousal abuse (and the doomed by prophecy vibes) and. I genuinely don't get how people can look at the walk of shame and say it's a fitting punishment to her crimes

Overall all the hate for female characters that are more complex or more driven or more morally ambiguous than what most female characters are presented as in other media in a fandom who (supposedly) prides itself in liking morally ambiguous characters is.. frustrating, really. I blame both fandom misogyny but also the GoT series, as it's outright changes in female character's actions and stories to make them look better or worse than what they originally were skewered the visions of almost everyone in the fandom (arya is an egregious victim of this. Scenes such as her caring for Weasel or her befriending sex workers in braavos don't exist and they added that "all girls are idiot" scene that i hate and they removed all her plan to free the northmen from harrenal and she got turned from traumatized child to hashtag no one super cool assassin and her character got straight up murdered in the tv series.)

Oh and also for kickstarting the whole jonsa vs jonerys thing which i'm pretty sure is the origin of the stupid dany vs sansa wars

And yes!! Dany Sansa and Arya should get to meet and reunite! While i do think that there will be some slight tensions between Sansa and Arya because they left on Not So Well terms, they have also matured a lot, so i do think they would have an heartfelt reunion. Meanwhile Dany and Arya could bond because of both their connection to Braavos and Arya's admiration for those who free slaves, and Dany would empathize (and feel a common ground) with Sansa for her being a child who had all her family die and got married extremely young while beeing creeped on by older men, while Sansa, who is shown to admire women like Margaery or Myranda, who are shown to be very keen regarding politics or social issues, something that Dany is

In the end, i genuinely hope that all three of these traumatized little girls get their happy ending and none of them dies, they all are interesting and complex characters that share parallels with each other, and it sucks that because of stupid ship wars or discussions on who would get the throne they get pitted against each other. THEY WOULD BE FRIENDS Y'ALL

[branwendaughterofllyr]

That’s such a good point about always asking ‘why?’/ ‘what for?’ when it comes to a theory’s narrative relevance — what it would mean for the story, what point would it make etc. It’s why I could never get my head around people being so dead set on a T4rg restoration as a positive endgame when we have all this legitimate reasoning for their downfall pre-AGOT, why they are distrusted, why their ideology is deeply suspect, and so on. It’s counterintuitive to me that the narrative would essentially return full circle to that regime, a T4rg on the throne, when they’ve been presented to us in such a specific, abusive and uncomfortable way. It devalues that pre-AGOT story, IMO. Bcoz it’s not enough to be ‘not like other T4rgs’ for me, the active association is too damning, too telling of what someone’s interests really are. But it’s like you said, people get deeply attached to one obviously biased pov and so disregard the wider, layered narrative that GRRM is trying to create through multiple povs that prompt us to question those who seek out power and if they can ever be truly justified in what they do to attain and/or maintain it.

It drives me wild that so many people don't ask "then what was the fucking point?" when talking about the ending of ASOIAF. The Targaryens had like two-three good rulers, all of whom ended up making some really horrible choices in the end that nearly burned the whole continent to the ground (This IS a Jaehaerys I hateblog). It's crazy to me that so many people that Fire&Blood is positive for the Targaryen Restoration when it's basically just a full length book's worth of "look at these bitches! Who put them in charge?" (the dragons). And then have Dany basically go "yes, fire and blood is a valid way to rule, my ancestors did nothing wrong" makes me highly skeptical of her chances.

And the PoV for trap for Dany is amazing, because as of ADWD, none of the enemies she has gone up against have been sympathetic (I mean, I think MMD is, but a lot of people don't) or even povs. Which lets her fans sit there and say "no, look, the people's she's up against are clearly terrible and she's the hero in this scenario." Which is going to shift drastically when she goes up against the Starks, who have no reason to love her and vice versa. How can Dany declaring that Starks and Lannisters are both the usurper’s dogs and therefore equally evil and her enemy not make everyone sit up and take notice. Yes, Dany going “Eddard Stark and his heart of ice are responsible for my family’s downfall” is absolutely going to win over Jon “I just want Ned Stark to be proud of me” Snow and Arya “I will cut anyone who says shit about my parents” Stark. I foresee no future conflict there!

The theories about the three heads of dragon having such traction make me laugh, when the choices Dany presented with are “fire and blood” and the literal and metaphoric planting of trees. She has to chain up her dragons because they are inherently at odds with creating a better future, but she chooses the path her family has walked again and again to the detriment of everyone else. Dany’s refusal to learn from her family’s mistakes and arrogance, is what dooms her to meet the same fate as the rest of them. The idea that “if I look back, I am lost” is her madness mantra makes so much sense, since if she looks back at the path of destruction she and all the other Targaryens have left in their wake, she might falter and reconsider, so she plows ahead straight to her doom, is ugh, such good writing.

(And it works as a foil to the Starks, who are so haunted by their pasts and the past of their families, they can never untangle themselves from it, even when they try to disappear into another identity)

So what does it actually mean for the narrative, if Dany didn’t actually live in Braavos? Does it change where she’s headed at all? What point would it serve if Tyrion is a secret Targaryen? What point does it serve if anyone is a secret Targaryen? Does it change the fact that the Targaryens burn themselves to the ground based on a flimsy prophecy one of them was arrogant enough to to believe, and no one checked the deteriorating madness of their head? That the Targaryens have set themselves over literally everyone else, to the point that they would rather practice incest than marry those beneath them? And the heroine of would-be Targaryen restoration doesn’t question any of this, and just says that it’ll be different this time! Because she has the magic nukes again!

And it’s brilliant because it really is all about “the hero of the other side”! Of course everyone likes to think that they are the hero, and it’s easy to fall into believing the same when you spend so much time in a character’s head. It is much harder to try and bring together all these different PoVs to try and figure out the broader narrative. And because Dany is so seperated from the rest of the characters, is easy to dismiss all the problems she has in coming to Westeros because none of the other characters really know her, and it’ll be different once she’s there, because she’s different, when it’s been set up that pretty much every POV character has a reason to keep a Targaryen with dragons at arms length and in reality, Dany has nothing to challenge those reasons.

It’s great writing, but it clearly has and still does go over some people’s heads, which is comepletely fair because ASOIAF is, in fact, a LOT. But it so often comes from the same people who dedicate immense amounts of time and energy to the series, and that’s when it becomes funny

[atopvisenyashill]

general thoughts

calling this episode baelor is kinda inspired actually.

SEAN BEAN EMMY CAMPAIGN WHEN???

if looks could kill, walder frey would have died when he threatened to turn them over to the lannisters omg there is pure hate in her eyes

the actor for aemon does a good job wjth this scene. the “even the little children” and the way his face shakes when he says “you will live with it the rest of your days…as i have” devastating thanks

sansa looks so relieved when ned starts to confess because she thinks this means he’ll be spared and sent to the wall and live. she has no idea what’s coming. then, arya looking around in horror that the entire crowd is yelling for her father's death, because she has no idea how little the common people care about this sort of shit. they want a show, that's all. what is that man's death to them. nothing.

the scenes with osha and bran are always so good. they have such a great dynamic, every word she speaks to him is so soft, almost reverent. not a kneeler but she adores this little boy and she’ll play along with his silly little ways and lug him around and calm his nightmares, and pray to the gods that he doesn't have the gifts she suspects he does because she knows better than anyone else at Winterfell that his gifts are a burden.

it's a shame that isaac got so big so fast because i deserved more scenes of osha just carrying bran around on her hip omg.

i love that this bard can’t help but put his whole heart into those high notes even knowing that joffrey is insane and unstable. i also love that joffrey makes a crack about ilyn payne’s tongue when ordering the bard's tongue taken out. demented little shithead.

and he IS just a little shithead at the end of the day because his face falls when sansa refuses to react, and he’s so mad when she's able to bite back at him. he doesn't get the reaction he wants, and he throws a tantrum at her as a result.

anyways I'M FINISHED WITH SEASON 1 BABEEEEE. took me long enough lol. i think it's a solid season of tv but it has the exact same faults as hotd frequently has which is making the "narrators" men, and especially kings way too goddamn often. renly's story arc should have been from loras' pov. the argument with robert about aerys should have been barristan's pov. they do a great job showing us sansa and arya's povs regularly, but you can see the cracks starting to show already because catelyn, tyrion, and dany are vastly different from the jump and they cut out all the prophecy/fever dream stuff except when they have to include it like bran's dreams or the dragons. it SUCKS. it's a FANTASY SHOW WHY WOULD YOU CUT ALL THE FANTASY ELEMENTS. STOP GIVING FANTASY SHOWS TO PEOPLE WHO DON'T LIKE FANTASY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

changes i noticed

okay now we are getting into what i feel is the first purposeful change - shae. well i suppose renly counts here too? whatever. anyways. she’s clearly older, closer to peter’s age, she doesn’t play act at being a sweet naive girl in love; she’s unimpressed, snarky, sultry, clearly hiding something. she unsettles tyrion right away because she’s so hard for him to pin down but that’s why he’s interested in her, because he finds her fascinating, challenging. of course in the end, the parts of her that he finds most interesting are why this would never work - shae is not a woman who can hold her tongue when she doesn’t approve of something and that’s a deadly trait for a lowborn mistress to have, so they were always going to have to leave KL if they wanted to be together BUT tyrion can never leave these people, not really, and as it goes on, he just gets more and more dug in - he’s gonna die here on this continent involved in these people’s lives and there is nothing she can offer him to sway him from this path.

i think i understand wanting to have more uncomplicated romances in the series to appeal to a general audience, but i do think you have to come around to saying something similar with that romance. i think the problem here is that by itself, tyrion being unable to listen to the woman he loves pleading with him to just Leave before it’s too late, and then it’s too fucking late, it maybe gets tyrion to roughly the same point as him being purposefully obtuse to how unhappy and unsafe shae feels with him in the books, but the thing is. that’s not how it goes lmao so we have this great set up where tyrion and shae are more equal in their relationship but their relationship ending is ultimately completely tyrion's fault and shae is simply trying to exist in the world after the man she loves abandons her, except they put that stupid little knife in her hand and had her testify against sansa. i am already mad. alsjdfk.

WHATEVER, i think the actress who plays shae is really good. kind of similar to jacob anderson in that she's putting this whole story together out of nothing and doing a great job, and doesn't always get the recognition she deserves.

i think emilia and iain have unfortunatley great chemistry. when she cups his cheek and goes "is that what you think will happen" before she walks into the fire. it's really good and clearly romantic and i hate that they made this change to jorah. i can't even think of him as jorah most of the time.

[lives4lovesworld]

How Dany's inability to recall Hazzea name and her reaction to Viserys’s death are shamelessly twisted for a narrative of her as a heartless monster, another "seed" to her descend into madness by others, and how it's incredibly hypocritical of them:

Firstly, it should be empathized that most characters/rulers do NOT even bother to care about any common born casualties in the first place, let alone learn their names and remember them over a large period of time as Daenerys (and Arya) do. So, even IF her name will one day truly fade from Daenerys's memory, i) it still makes her a morally better person and ruler than everbody else ii) it (/memory loss) will never be an indication of a descend into madness.

Such a " critique" is especially hypocritical coming from Sansa and Baratheon stans to do so, given that Sansa Stark herself couldn't even show remorse or sorrow for her sister's friend and innocent child, let alone learn his name. In fact she tried to spin a narrative where his brutal, unnecessary murder was justified and simultaneously gashlighted her devasted sister. Only one time, after her rose colored glasses were ripped off did she even mentioned Mycah's fate to the Tyrells, referring to him only as "butcher's boy" yet again. Otherwise he remains utterly absent in her head space. And given that both Stannis Baratheon and Robert Baratheon’s small council argue for killing innocent children if it’s profitable for them (x, x, x, x ,x, x, x, x, x, x, x, x, x). Common born casualties in wars are simply of no concern for most characters on a personal level.

While Daenerys is condemn for her lack of visible devastation at witnessing her abusive brother being killed after threatening her, Sansa's first action concerning Jory's murder, a leal man of her father, she had known her entire life, can be emphasizing Joffrey's lack of blame for this innocent man's brutal, unnecessary murder. With her second action being feeling proud that a more handsome man is filling out Jory's place, as well as witnessing Clegane killing a youth in tournament, and yet feel nothing nor cry and forget about his name as soon as she heard it without being used as "proof" for her mental decline.

A person not in need of twisting the narrative to unfairly condemn one to prop up another, would see that Daenerys and Sansa's respective reasoning behind their lack of tears in these two incidents are even similar: Both girls were emotionally utterly spent after their recent traumatic events (x, x). Yet, if extreme depravity, a miscarriage and the constant danger of hostile strangers and wild predators in the open, after the ordeal in the fighting pit are not sufficient as explanation for Daenerys's currently emotionally spent state and lack of tears for a girl Drogon killed than neither is Lady's death and Bran's fall for Sansa's utterly lack of reaction when witnessing a man dieing for the first time.

And, unlike Dany, Sansa was enjoying a tournament held in honor for her betrothed as a daughter of the King's Hand surrounded by her family's household in the pompous capital city. Unlike Sansa, Dany never actually witnessed with her own eyes the death.

It's maddening how there has been spun a narrative in which Daenerys is somehow responsible for Hazzea's death (some saying the same for Quentyn Martell's death) or doesn't care about her fate by sansa stans to villainize her. When that's just deliberately twisting the actual text and considering that their own fav is currently poisoning Robert Arryn, an innocent child and HER COUSIN (her last relative for what she knows) for her political ambitions. For which the most demeaning excuses are being conjuncted (such as Sansa simply being too stupid and "naive" to understand the danger of overdosing a child, despite Maester Colemon explain it), yet Daenerys gets vilified for lack of tears due to shock of seeing her abusive brother get murdered after he had threatened her unborn child.

sansa stans should truly be the last ones to prester anyone with their respective character's "lack of empathy" and bad memory nor proclaim a character is a "unreliable POV", especially when sansa has been be singled out BY THE AUTHOR to actually be one. (x, x) Same goes for Baratheon stans when it comes to other character's dismissal of innocent lifes and a mental decline linked to telling oneself everything is justified for the "Great Good".  

[cellsshapedlikestars]

Don’t worry about answering this is you don’t want to. I know you don’t like fandom wank. But, if you feel like it, do you think someone could make those endpoints work? Bran as king and Jon at the Wall even though there’s a big old hole in it and Dany deliberately burning King’s Landing before Jon or Arya kills her, is that an ending any writer, no matter their skill, could sell to the hardcore fans? I don’t think the fandom would accept it even if GRRM wrote it.

lololol I deleted my post already anon, so for those of you who didn't read it - I was once again whining about how d&d fucked up the last bunch of seasons and every character. it's not a new take, just something I was high thinking in the shower, so I deleted it bc it wasn't productive.

But I'll answer this, because I think it's interesting.

In short - no.

(Beneath the cut for a longer explanation and just a whole bunch of my ranty thoughts. pls remember I am no asoiaf scholar and I haven't studied every aspect of the books or read every meta. These are just my opinions.)

Longer - at this point, too much time has gone by, there is literally no way George can please... probably even half of his fanbase, no matter what he does. From what I can tell, the fandom too divided and there's so much hatred between stan groups (which I do find ridiculous, but it is what it is). People have cemented their own ending in their heads after decades of the fandom existing without an official ending, and I can see a lot of them not liking that they're wrong. Some people have spent 30 years with their theories, it's sunk cost fallacy. Case in point, the show ending being written off as fanfiction by a lot of fans.

which, tangent, I get. I GET why d stans don't believe the ending, because it was so poorly executed. I truly do understand their denial, because the show gaslit the audience for soooooo long that she was the girlboss hero and then seemed to do a 180 at the end. What was that post I just reblogged the other day? I don't hate villains, I hate when the narrative tries to convince you the bad person is actually good.

now, you asked if anyone could make those endpoints work, but I don't actually think most of them are the real endpoints? I think they were D&D giving up and not trying, or going for Shock Value™. But for fun, I'm gonna go by endpoints I think are most to least likely, and my thoughts on how they could happen and how D&D fucked them up.

Bran as king: Confirmed by grrm. How he'll make this work, I have no idea. I genuinely didn't see it coming tbh. I thought the "bittersweet" ending would be Jon being forced to take the crown in KL. like it's a good ending for everyone else, but for him it's misery. I'm sure grrm has his plans, and I'd be interested to see how he pulls it off. This end point does not disappoint me and I'm not mad at being wrong, but I can see a HUGE swath of people HATING it. specifically D stans.

D&D blew this hard. They cut Bran out of an entire season, making him seem to the audience like a lesser character and not important. They made him a robot. Why am I rooting for show!Bran? Also, I will never, ever get over that line - who has a better story than Bran the Broken? I don't know Tyrion, literally everyone else?? JON DIED AND CAME BACK TO LIFE. ahem.

(as far as I'm aware, Bran as king is the only ending grrm has confirmed?? correct me if I'm wrong.)

D as the big bad: I guess grrm hasn't officially confirmed this, but... he's sort of confirmed it, riiiiight? He compared dragons to nuclear weapons. The show has her as the villain (poorly executed or not). When I gave hotd a shot, literally the opening lines were about the Targs bringing themselves down immediately after name dropping her. Seems pretty solid to me. D&D just refused to commit to her villain arc because they didn't want to alienate their audience that they'd gaslit into thinking she was the hero, and they were seemingly obsessed with Shock Value™ twists.

Dany burning KL: I think the burning of KL is going to happen, and it seems like Dany is the only one to really do it? Unclear how it will happen, I'm sure people have theories. What the show didn't have was Aegon, so who knows how he'll factor in.

Arya sailing west: I think there's a lot of foreshadowing for it. It fits her nature. I think this is very likely to happen and I guess D&D handled it ok. They did ruin her character, though, by making her a literal mass murderer. But yayyyyyy feminism I guess.

Theon sacrificing himself for Bran: Theon's was the only arc I think the show did well. They ruined it at the end by having Theon literally throw himself onto the Night King's sword, which was so fucking stupid, but the arc itself is poignant and fits his character. While he can't ever redeem himself to Robb, he can redeem himself to Robb's siblings, and considering he once pretended to kill Bran, I think this is solid.

Cersei and Jaime dying together: this was my theory even before the show ending, and I think it fits their characters. They cannot live without each other, no matter if they hate each other. They're too deeply entwined in each other. Now, I personally wanted Cersei to be taken captive and put in the black cells to be publicly burned later, and then Jaime shows up and mercy kills her and then himself bc he can't live without her.

But I guess getting bonked on the head by some avoidable rocks is also a way to do it

Sansa as QitN: I'll be honest and say I hated this ending because she ended up alone. Sansa, who has wanted nothing more than family and safety since book 1, ends up completely alone. Even Brienne, her sworn shield, leaves her. but she's a queen, so yayyyy feminism I guess.

I can see her as queen, but I can also see her ending up as queen regent for Rickon, because I'm not totally convinced Rickon dies? like in the show he just randomly shows up and gets captured by Ramsay and it just feels like that isn't his arc in the books. Maybe I'm wrong. But I could see D&D having the endpoint of Sansa as regent, but they killed Rickon off already for Shock Value™, and so they went oops! and made her queen.

Now, there is a part of me that thinks she will not be queen or queen regent, because how does one break off and declare independence from their own brother? Feels like that would destabilize his rule and not give people much faith in him. It just seems really strange to me, but I guess it could happen, since Northern Independence is such a huge theme and it would be weird if it didn't happen?? Does Bran just let her secede? And it doesn't make Dorne or the Iron Islands try.... That's the part in the show that literally did not make sense to me. Sansa was like bye, I'm taking the north, and no one else spoke up about that.

I'd be totally fine with her as queen (if she has someone!!) but I can see a gooooood chunk of the fandom absolutely hating this. surprise.

Brienne as Kingsguard: while I like it for narrative purposes, because she deserves it, I just can't see her leaving Sansa, if she becomes as close to Sansa as she does on the show? If Sansa is queen, I could see her as Sansa's Queensguard. But what does she have in KL? The south didn't ever respect her, why would she want to go back. I think D&D put this in so they could have the ending shot of her writing in the book about Jaime for the shippers

Jon at the Wall: the only reason he went to the Wall in the show was because Grey Worm demanded it? And then left. So. You know, real enforceable. So stupid. Genuinely the worst writing of all the endings, I think, the logic made zero sense there. Now, that could be because they'd written themselves into a corner, but knew Jon ended up at the Wall, and had to force it?

But to me, it's like - what was the point of his resurrection, then? In the show, he doesn't even kill the Night King (we'll get to that). He kills D, sure, but... He's also the reason she succeeds in Westeros to begin with. So what, he gets resurrected, causes havoc, fixes the havoc he caused, and then is sent away to a Wall that serves no purpose anymore? WHAT PURPOSE DOES THE WALL SERVE. The Others are defeated, there's a big ol' hole in it, and they've allied with the Free Folk to an extent. How does the Watch continue on?

I guess he could self-banish. I know the show sort of makes the implication that he goes off with the Free Folk, but in the books, he doesn't really like FF culture? He's appalled by a lot of the violence in it. I can't see him wanting to live that way.

Brai.me: don't get me wrong, I like Brai.me. I think it's cute, in fanon. In canon, I think Brienne is too good for him. I don't see their relationship going romantic or sexual. I think Brienne is who Jaime desperately wants to be (but Cersei is who he keeps being pulled back to). Them having sex was 100% for the shippers

Jo/ner.ys: I'm putting all the punctuation in that. don't need them finding me somehow. Anyway. I don't think this happens, at least not as a true romance. They're on opposite continents and there's not a ton of time left, but more than that - and I know I've said this before - I can't see Jon "hates seeing people burned alive" Snow falling in love with D "loves to burn people alive" T. Could it be a political thing? Maybe, but I also could see her having an alliance with Aegon.

I think there's 2 possible reasons for this being in the show and presented as an actual romance. 1) it was supposed to be that pol!Jon theory, but they chickened out (same with jonsa & a love triangle, I think they chickened out bc of the incest. I think now with hotd being incest central and fans loving it, they wouldn't balk anymore). 2) just the spectacle of it? people have been theorizing this for years, why not give it to them? see above, brai.me

Tyrion as Hand: bleh. I know the fandom loves him and he was clearly D&D's fave, but grrm has said Tyrion is the most morally gray character, and I can't see him letting Tyrion get everything he's always wanted, you know? People think asoiaf is grimdark, but I can't imagine grrm punishing Jon with banishment while giving Tyrion a cushy position with lots of power.

I've read the theory that Tyrion ends up at the Wall, which I like thematically, but again, WHAT PURPOSE DOES THE WALL SERVE. Is it just a penal colony at that point?? someone smarter than me, tell me.

Grey Worm & Missandei condoning/encouraging D: hated it. Take the only characters of color to have speaking lines (i'm 99% sure) in the last season and turn them vengeful and murderous (especially grey worm). Throw their characters under the bus to absolve D of blame

Arya killing the Night King: no. he doesn't exist in the books, first, and even in the show it made zero narrative sense. It was just a Shock Value™ twist. You thought it was gonna be hero Jon, hmmmmmm? WRONG. I've said it on here before, but my hope is that it's Sam that brings down the Others in the book somehow.

.

Did I forget anything, anon? This probably veered wildly from the point of the ask, but oh well, it was fun. (I had a jonsa section in here at first, but then I remembered this is show canon ending stuff and that was not canon sorry fellow jonsas. I obvioulsy want it to be the ending bc the shipper brainrot is real, buuuuuut...)

[fromtheseventhhell]

Hello! I see you’re a big Dany and Arya fan just like me! And like me see that what they did to them in the show is an insult to the absolutely amazing beautiful characters from the books. I wanted to ask you what do you think Dany and Arya will do when they meet each other in the books? I was so excited for them to meet in the show but S8 was a disgusting sexist disappointment and we didn’t get a single scene with them together. All we had was Arya turned into a Sansa sycophant (that line where she said Sansa is the smartest person ever is one of my most hated lines from that atrocity of a season) and distrusting Dany (spewing Cersei esque stuff like “not one of us”). D&D turned Arya into a xenophobic, cold hearted, arrogant Sansa worshipper which was a huge disservice to her character. I would much rather have seen the real Dany and Arya interact than any Dany and Sansa scene. I am really really hoping in the books, even if they are wary of each other at first, that they become really really close friends. Become the sisters they never had. That would be a hundred times better than “Stark sisters forever” (not a fan of Sansa). What do you think?

Hello! Always nice to see a fellow Arya and Dany stan! 🙏🏾

In short, I agree with all of this. I think seasons 6-8 were nothing more than D&D's horrible writing so I don't think it's going to be anything similar in the books. They were more concerned with propping up Sansa and demonizing Dany than anything else and that's why it's so poorly written. I think they kept Arya and Dany apart in the show simply because they didn't have any interest in them and wanted Arya as Sansa's prop, which was a huge problem with Show!Arya's writing. They never cared about adapting her character correctly and always favored Sansa over her...funny because they had to give Sansa her plotlines to make her more important. I can't think of a single character who was well-adapted and that's just a shame.

As for the books, there's so much to foreshadow their meeting and working together (Arya telling her friend "Daena" that she wants to see a Dragon is basically George hitting us over the head). Even ignoring all that, just the fact that they're key characters basically guarantees interactions. I cannot wait for them to meet in the books. I do think it's possible that they could have conflict in the very beginning, but I don't see it being anything serious or lasting long. I don't really expect any of the Starks to have major issues with her tbh. Mad Queen Dany is a show-only concept and they'll definitely be working together.

It's a shame that D&D's misogyny ruined so many female characters and what could've been great relationships between them. I don't even think Dany and Sansa will interact much in the books, if at all, but I can still see their book counterparts getting along. There was really no reason for them to have conflict aside from the fact that they wanted Dany to turn evil. And even then they had Sansa being jealous because Dany was pretty 😑. It was just a mess all around and I can't wait to get the real, well-written story.

[finitefall]

Heya! I have a feeling we’ll get Winds of Winter either this year or next year. Probably next year. But… can I confess something? GRRM isn’t like D&D from everything I have seen. Unlike them he cares about his story and his characters very very much. And I know Dany is one of his favorites and he fully supports her ending slavery. With Fire and Blood if she must. Unlike the two hacks who think Dany is evil for killing slave masters (“good and innocent” slave masters they tried to portray). But… I never thought we would get that disgusting awful ending that we got in the shitty season. That’s why part of me is really really afraid that what if GRRM is gonna give Dany an awful ending? I suppose I could accept Dany dying if she dies as a hero and to protect her people and her loved ones. But I much rather she lived even if she doesn’t become Queen. But… I have seen a lot of comments on YouTube and social media and on Discord and they said that it’s obvious in the books Dany will go mad. I really just want our girl to get a good ending but it seems these idiots are determined to make people like me scared that she will end the same way in the books. And some of these guys even claim to like Dany but that it’s obvious she’ll go mad.

I feel you. While waiting for season 8, I still had hope, even though by then I knew D&D and it shouldn't have come as a surprise that they would give us this awful, out of character, misogynistic ending. And yet, it hit me hard. So I understand that when people say the books are different and she's obviously not gonna have this awful ending, we can think: "well, I didn't expect the show would do this either even after all the crap they had done in the previous seasons, so better be prepared this time". But as you say, GRRM isn't D&D. Their social and political opinions aren't the same at all. Martin isn't talking about "innocent slavers" and isn't against revolution.

There are already plenty of differences between her characterization in the books and in the show. It still didn't make sense in the show, but it would make even less sense in the books. Now, we can criticize GRRM for some things, but throwing away everything from the previous novels and doing fan service for those who loved season 8? I don't think so. We already know Tyrion isn't gonna be reading her the Geneva convention in the books (he was whitewashed to the point of being stupid when he joined Dany in the show), we know Varys isn't gonna join her, so we won't have those two telling the emotionally fragile woman to "fight her darkest impulses".

We know Martin wrote a heroine's arc for Dany, and that he likes to subvert tropes. Everyone looked for a boy, but it's Daenerys who's Azor Ahai returned/TPTWP. It's not a sword that's Lightbringer, it's the dragons. Now, there's a fear that she will die saving the world, which would be very disappointing (I agree with those posts here and here), although not as awful as the show's ending.

Those who claim to love Daenerys because she's "such an interesting villain" are just antis Dany. Their Dark!Dany foreshadowing doesn't make any sense. Those are the same people who claim they're not against her fighting slavery, but she should do it peacefully, meaning they don't want her to actually fight slavery at all and are totally on the same page as D&D, even though they won't admit it and tell us it's all right to like her as a villain. They’re going on and on about how it’s more interesting and more subversive if Dany doesn’t end being a hero, but there’s literally nothing interesting or subversive about Dark!Dany. Her ending in the show fell into the oldest sexist tropes.

Who are those people who claim to love Dark!Dany, anyway? Take a look around tumblr: almost all of them are Sansa stans who also loved their fave ending up QITN. Like that makes sense when you've read the books. Dany isn't gonna become mad or a tyrant, Arya isn't gonna leave to travel the world (nonsense ending for Arya too, it was really for every main female character besides Sansa to be gone) or become a psychopath, Sansa isn't gonna become QITN. We're delusional? No lovely, they are. If you want reassurance, just play along next time you see someone who claims to love Dany and says it’s obvious she’ll go mad. Tell them that you could see this happening, that she would indeed be a better and more interesting antagonist than the others, that the only thing you wouldn’t like if this happened is that no main female character would end up without power corrupting them which would be sexist, and wait for their answer. It’s not gonna be “there’s Arya, don’t worry!”, because Dany and Arya stans actually get along in the fandom and most of us love both of them (Dany stan first, but Arya is my second favorite). No, it’s gonna be "there’s Sansa”.

[elegantwoes]

If it weren’t for such toxic Stansa’s out there who continuously pit Sansa against Arya and/or Dany just to prop Sansa up, and who continuously steals from their characters, arcs, and relationships thus declaring Arya and Dany useless to the story. And who continuously erases Sansa’s flaws and mistakes just to elevate fanon characteristics that don’t resemble her actual book counterpart in order to push the “Sansa is the most compassionate, intelligent, politically savvy, and morally pure woman in the books who has suffered so prettily and will indeed be queen (with no leadership experience and skills) and get the handsome prince” fanon agenda.  Not to mention, who continuously writes hateful anti-Arya and anti-Dany meta and tagging them in the pro tags while also sending us death threats (I just got two in one day barely a week ago). So maybe if the Stansa’s didn’t push their fanon fantasies about Sansa onto us and treating it as fact when the book doesn’t support it, while being insensitive assholes to the other female characters, we would be more indifferent towards Sansa as just a character we don’t like and don’t put much energy into.  Personally, it’s the fans who really made me dislike Sansa to the extent I do. If it weren’t for them I probably would have treated Sansa as a mere annoyance in AGOT, and a meh character afterwards, and that’s that. But most Stansa’s out there are wishing for death or exile for Arya, and madness and intimate partner violence for Dany without being provoked by Arya and Dany fans, because generally we aren’t the ones provoking Stansa’s. But I bet you think we are provoking you since we won’t love any version of Sansa and we won’t accept your fanon versions of things that aren’t supported in the text.

Alright then, anon. Please tell me how Sansa fans take character arcs and relationships from @rya and D@ny and you better provide me actual sources. I am dying to know.

[leesielex]

Sigh… I a know what kind of world this is. As much as I want Dany to live, I am preparing myself for the situation that she dies. Just as long as it’s her dying heroically. Not becoming “mad” and you know what from Dumb&Dumber’s disgusting pathetic excuse of an ending. I think I could handle that. I just really really really really want Dany to live even if it’s not as Queen. One ending me and my dad were thinking of is Jon dying to destroy the Others and to protect Dany and their child. Would have been a million times better than D&D’s wankfest. So you do have a good idea for how the story might end. And it’s actually a pretty good one. I just… I just really want Dany to live. She is one of the ones who deserves to live the most.

I agree. As devestating and tearful as it would have been to see Jon Sacrafice himself to protect Dany and boat baby, then Dany understands what has always been more important to her and the entire reason she even cared about conquering Westeros to restore her family's legacy, was family and home, so now that she is pregnant, she fucks off to Essos or somewhere to find her house with the Red door and Lemon tree. That at least would have been an ending that made sense and still would be bittersweet.

I mean, if I had my perfect ending, Jon and Dany together end the Long Night and then defeat Cersei on top of their dragons. Jon accepts his Targ heritage b/c he literally pretended and dreamed of being one as a child like Arya did. Arya rules the Riverlands, Sansa with Sweetrobin in the Vale, Bran rules the North and Rickon is the one to go live freely with the wildlings now more wolf than man. Jon/Dany stay in Kings Landing to establish a new government, a democracy, with each of the 9 territories having their own state government and electing representatives to be their voice in the capital. They can have a king or queen who runs the meetings but succession should also be an election and not by blood. Once the realm is in good hands and functioning as it should. Dany and Jon then live happily ever after in their cozy house, able to visit anyone they want with their dragons. Ghost mates with Nymeria and Drogon or Rhaegal have their little hatchlings and baby targs get baby wolves and dragons. A thousand years later, in a modern looking world, dragons fill the sky with their silver haired riders and blue eyes awaken in the Land of Always winter. The end. That's also bittersweet to find out there is no defeating it and it will continue to cycle through every thousand or so years. Which... I am not certain there is any possible way to completely defeat the others, so discovering this cycle will repeat may actually be an ending. Cause mentioning Azor Ahai being reborn means they knew this happened before and would happen again. If they defeated them, why not continue beating them down hunting every last avenue for them to return and obliterating it until they were certain they would never return?

I get so into this discourse and ramble and rant. 😂🥰

[lori133]

GOT II - The Bran Saga

Second day of reading seventy pages from Catelyn (2) till Catelyn (3). A lot happens but also, not a lot that's not Bran centric happens. I got too lazy to do the chapter per chapter thing, so I'll just write down my thoughts while reading.

Catelyn (2)

First we start with Cat and Ned being intimate when she gets the secret message from her sister.

While reading her wishes to give Ned another child, I kept wondering... what for? I mean, I know that before the more children you had, the better. But Cat is a sensible woman, she must have known that at some point a son of hers would be sent to the Wall as was Stark tradition, right? The only reason I can think of her wanting another child is the coveted youngest daughter; Sansa is bound to marry a high lord and Arya is not the kind to stay at home with her eldery parents.

Going back to the plot, Ned was totally right to try to nope out of the drama of being hand of the king. He was also super on point on comaring himself to his father who went south and never come back. Foreshadowing is mad strong for Ned.

I loled at Cat being surprised she and Robb were staying north. What did she think? That they'll let a steward in charge? I mean, they do exactly that one book from now, but still, it makes sense to leave and adult and the heir in charge.

Lastly, Cat was totally right to tell Ned Jon was his and not hers. He should have taken Jon to the south with him, or sent him as a ward to another northern house if he was afraid because of Jon's hypothetical Targ blood. This will be an unpopular opinion but Cat's bad relationship with Jon is all on Ned, he should have made up a story about Jon's origin (he already told Robert there was a Wylla, why not repeat the story) and assuage Cat's fears of ursurpation.

Arya (1)

Ah the glorious war of sisterly rivarly. To be fair to Sansa, it was Arya who butt in her gossiping, Arya who yelled, attrating the Septa's attention, and Arya who was not paying attention to her stitches. It isn't Sansa's fault she is more suited to the role society expects of her.

I remember reading this as a tomboy girl and thinking Sansa was vapid (she is) and mean (maybe, but not here), but it was just nother consequence of the conditioning that other girls are the enemy; a little like what happens here.

Bran (2)

I adore Bran and I think GRRM does as well. The prose always flows somewhat better on his chapters, as do the descriptions of the places. I feel that it is through his pov that the most worldbuilding gets done. Through his eyes, Winterfell seems like a magical place, full of adventure and wonder; contrasting to everyone else describing it as a dump.

The tower scene is still so good, just like Bran, we the readers have no context of what is being plotted and by whom. And just like him, we think everyhting will be alright until bam! Anyways, great intro to Cersei's paranoia and Jaime absolutely lack of care.

Tyrion (1)

Again Jaime dgaf, I imagine it must be very frustrating being his sibling and seeing all the privilege he gets and how unserious he takes everything.

While I did say I haven't watched the show, I must have seen the slap scene at least twenty times via reels and I have to say that while Joffrey reads nearly he same as the actor, both the Dog and Tyrion have much more flair and charisma on screen than on paper. Kudos to the actors for adding a bit of charisma to the otherwise stilled scene.

Jon (2) -> I wrote nothing on this and two hours after have literally forgotten what happened.

Daenerys (2)

And I keep on being reminded why I skimmed through Dany's chapters. Not a fan of all the coupling that's going on and how it is described basically as men coupling with interchangeable women who have no say on it. All of it was quite terrible to read, and I would never understand why couldn't Dany (and the rest of them) be a couple of years older. It is just the same shock if she were fifteen than thirteen, only Drogo wouldn't be bedding a literal child. :/

Moving on, why was Viserys so entitled??? You would think that being absolutely destitute and having no followers other than you seven years younger sister would teach him some humilty, but it didn't? He is on Illiryo's charity but still acts like his boss? It is his sister's wedding to the most powerful guy in the continent and he expects to be served first? This feels seriously like a YA mean girl.

Ned (2)

Yeah, Bobby B is a shitty king and Ned is not even in KL and his frustration is already through the roofs. I feel for him and the inevitability of his failure. That comparision with Jon Arryn... Ned can you please stop narratively dooming yourself for a second?

Note to myself: Who even put the dragon skulls in the throne room? Aerys for max Targaryen rep? Tywin in a gothic allegory of the Targaryen fall?

Tyrion (2)

Benjen/Tyrion Highschool AU anyone? Both youngest sons, both dutiful counterparts to their more celebrated brothers and controversial sisters? I'm grasping at straws I know, I just really liked their one (1) interaction. It was just the right amount of petty.

Another character with lots of foreshadowing. Being obssessed with dragons and draming of having is a very Targaryen trait. So I'm starting a count of characters who dream/want to have a dragon; so far it is just Tyrion (and Aemond and Rhaena from Hotd).

Lol the dragon skulls was Aerys. I haven't read Fire and Blood and now I wonder wether it was always like that or was it just Aerys drama? Did Viserys I have Balerion over there? Did Aegon I put Meraxes on display? Somehow I don't think so.

It is also interesting that despite Vhaghar surviving Meraxes, Meraxes skull was noted by Tyrion to be bigger than Vhaghar's. It would be interesting if Vhaghar was Visenya's craddle egg and they did the conquest so late because they were waiting for Vhaghar to grow.

Note to myself: Meraxes skull was in Dragonstone in Hotd, but for some reason it is in the Red Keep afterwards.

Catelyn (3)

The Targaryens: passing Aegon's dagger along with it's prophesy from ruler to heir. Joffrey: Giving it to the first hobo he finds for him to use as the least inconspicious muder weapon to kill a comatose boy. LMAO.

[khaleesi-in-the-north]

I agree that the most ideal ending for the ASOIAF books is that each kingdom should have their independence and rule themselves like before Aegon the Conqueror invaded Westeros. It’s gonna be a poetic ending that with Dany’s death and Jon being exiled beyond the wall, it will mark the end of the Targaryen dynasty for good and returned things back to how it used to be before Westeros was conquered. And yes, I’m assuming that the whole Dany and Jon arc that happened in the show would more or less happen that way. The whole Azor Ahai and Nissa-Nissa parallels them so Dany will definitely be killed by Jon. In any case, their whole arc will be fleshed out better and Dany’s descent to madness would be given more justice in the books for sure and of course the arc with the White Walkers would be properly handled. I know GRRM told D&D about his planned ending for his books and considering the foreshadowings in the books, I truly believe Sansa will end up as Queen of the North, Dany being killed by Jon and Jon being exiled but I’m really not how the heck Bran ended up as king because the reasoning was dumb as hell. I also think Arya might be up with some adventures but I’m not sure she would have left home that soon.

I do believe George planned on king Bran but after seeing how it played out and fan reaction, he's trying to back track. Which is part of why the last 2 books are taking forever. He wants an unpredictable ending which means he can't have a Targaryen on the throne, but he now sees there's not a reasonable solution for anyone he does want.

[llikeaunicorn]

Arya being romantically involved with a queen Dany would actually fit some of the setup from book one pretty well, and like, it's obviously a crackship but like...

1) Arya doesnt want kids/traditional ladyship, but has a lot of leadership foreshadowing. Being in a gay relationship where she can't have kids would work out well, especially if she's publicly just a bachelorette for life. But also I dont imagine Dany wouldn't give her lover an actual position of power, at the very least a position on the small council. Maybe even a Knight Commander (Arya is really a protector first and foremost and I know the line with Ned specifically mentioned knighthood? Thatd work with the brotherhood without banners too I think)

- It totally flips Sansa's line about becoming queen and forcing Arya to be a lady/ punishing her (dont remember the exact quote). Sansa is not going to be queen of the 7 kingdoms actually, and the queen will actually support Arya living in a way that is fulfilling for her.

I also think Arya has picked up a lot of connections to the Riverlands, and although I think her ties to the North would generally still win out, its nice to have some version of her where she gets to nurture those more.

I also remember the bit where she's travelling down from the North and picking flowers along the trident, and we see a bit of a parallel with the scene where Daario picks flowers for Dany on her way to Meereen (both places that end up being politically hostile to these girls). And Dany is mad at Daario for trying to hide the bad parts of the world from her (the crucified children) and I think about how Arya would just never do that lol. She wants friends who will see the whole world with her. And Dany wants that too. I like to imagine them travelling Westeros together, with Arya teaching Dany the histories she knows and all the beautiful places she's seen. And recount the horrors. Flowers for her queen and the dead she remembers. Or something.

And yeah I think it really works on Danys end too, where like, Dany is attracted to people who are beautiful and dangerous and passionate and strong and thats Arya! But Arya would be better for Dany than someone like Daario, because Arya has never been violent for violence's sake.

Definitely a crackship but both of these girls deserve soft comfort and joy and adventure and this ship provides that imo.

[gotgifsandmusings]

Hi, been a fan since season 5 but was MIA during season 8 because life. I was wondering what you thought of Dany's descent as Queen of the Ashes? Do you think some of your earlier points i.e Hizdahr zo Sansa work in D&D's benefit unironically now (even though they have lost all credibility as writers)? Ignoring how it was butchered, of course.

Congratulations, you asked the very question that broke Julia and my collective brain and is the reason we never finished our S8 retrospectives, lol.

Because like...yes. This show had basically done a horrible job of distinguishing "good" vs. "bad" guys on the show in all ways other than marketing. It was just accepted that Cersei was the "most vile woman in Westeros," when we see the "heroes" do similarly awful things (e.g. Arya murdering the entire Frey male line, baking them into pies, and feeding them to Walder).

So enter Season 7/8 where it's I guess setting up Dany's descent (while also being an earnest love story for some reason), and we get this weird case of "it's only evil/questionable when Dany does war things." Tyrion can burn Stannis's fleet with wildfire, but Dany can't burn her enemies' soldiers with Drogon because...Tyrion is on a hill looking sad? Jon can execute a literal traumatized child who tried to kill him, but Dany can't execute the Tarlys who wouldn't have taken the black anyway?

It just becomes this crap pile of misogynistic implications, where it seems like our reasons we're supposed to be skeptical of Dany are because she does things unilaterally, and when women do that on the show it's bad. When men do it on the show, it's leadership. Then of course, her strafing to burn as many innocents in King's Landing was just comically stupid. We've SEEN Dany in power already...we saw her grapple with not being beloved by everyone in Meereen. We know what motivates her, and it's just not fitting that she'd suddenly want to kill all the innocents. Or that bells make her take things personally.

Really, what's sort of funny about this show is that we could have had a heel-turn for Sansa to be Queen of the Ashes, or for Jaime to be King of the Ashes, and because this show is so obsessed with everyone being motivated by revenge and having cool badass moments, there'd be equal seeding for any of these characters burning down King's Landing.

But no, the issue was Dany's..."liberation theology" (these guys are so, so stupid).

So like...yes? It does help retroactively sorta? But also no, it doesn't, because they don't get to have it both ways and argue her 'targ madness coin' just happened to land in S8, especially when Dany is arguably the character we've seen in a position of power the most, and understanding how she wields it.

This is getting rambly, so let me leave you with a snippet from one of our many failed attempts to write this retrospective (note it's a very rough draft):

"...After rewatching Season 8, the true point of Varys turning sides was hearing that Jon had a better claim to the throne. The Tarly executions in Season 7 kicked off his skepticism about Dany’s leadership qualities. However, in between those two events, the only beat we could point to was Dany being grumpy at a party. She did try to fire Tyrion a few times and Varys is a Carol Award-winning Tyrion-stan, but we never saw his reaction to that specifically. It had been Jorah that pleaded for Tyrion remaining her Hand this year. All we saw was Varys side-eyeing her sitting back in a chair at a party. 

We couldn't even adequately tie Dany’s actions to similar actions on the parts of Tyrion and Jon and make a solid sexism case, because it just became this horrible circular discussion of which actions counted vs. not. The fact is, Varys was in Dany’s camp until he wasn’t. He had concerns, sure, but the turning point was a grumpy party! Maybe her UberEats delivered the wrong latte and she’s lactose intolerant!

Taking this to the macro level, we simply never saw Dany develop into a villain. The narrative decided she was a villain in Episode 4 of the final season, and then chided and insulted us for ever thinking she wasn’t. We could spend a separate 6,000 words arguing whether or not her actions of previous seasons could have been framed as villainous (remember how Kylie kept saying how Cersei and Dany were kind of the same in their actions?), but it’s not productive. The writers were in Dany’s camp until they weren’t.

[first she came for the slavers]

Ignoring the just horrific implications of how they evoked Niemöller here, this Tyrion quote is just baldly ridiculous. You (dear writers) cheered for her when she burned the Dothraki, and we know because of the framing and the music and the things characters said about her afterwards. Also, you wrote an entire plotline about how nailing the slavers to the crosses had unintended consequences that she had to reconcile with, and it was part of her development as a leader. But then you decided learning was wrong, or opening the fighting pits was wrong, or Tyrion had to convince the red priests to worship her to re-engage commerce? Or something??

It’s almost like there was no coherent planning and Dany didn’t have a series arc at all! She was the cool, badass Khaleesi lady, until she wasn’t. She was the person in charge of Meereen until Tyrion came. She was the revolutionary who loved the smallfolk and wanted to reduce suffering until she was the paranoid narcissist who didn’t get enough praise. She was a feminist icon until she was a cautionary tale about ambitious women. She was a Marxist reformer that wanted to break the wheel which had harmed so many until she was Horde Prime who sought people’s liberation through their deaths."

[reignof-fyre]

Antis: "Daenerys has no right to Dragonstone"

Me, " She was born there and her ancestors literally built the castle."

Antis: "UH, she has no right to the Iron Throne!!!!"

Me: "Her ancestor forged the throne in dragonflame and united the Seven Kingdoms into one,"

Antis: "She's not a good person!"

Me: "Daenerys was raised a slave of her brother, abused, and dedicates her life to freeing fellow slaves/making the world a better place,"

Antis: "She stole the Unsullied and killed Slavers who did nothing wrong!!!"

Me: "Dany freed thousands of men stolen from their families as children who were inexplicably tortured by Slavers and if you think the Slavers were innocent and Daenerys guilty of anything you need to check your morals."

Antis: "Dany is insane! Dragons are evil!"

Me: "Dragon's aren't inherently evil and Daenerys has never shown any sign of madness ever."

Antis: "Well - well she will! She's done horrible things in her quest of "righteousness and freeing slaves"!"

Me: "So has every single other character in grrm's world. Arya killed a stable hand at 9, Sansa lied to a King's face, Jon has executed people, Ned lied to his king/friend, Catelyn arrested an innocent man, Robb broke a solemn vow, Jaime pushed a child from a window, Cersei is Cersei, Joffrey is a little monster, Tywin is the actual devil, Ramsay exists, shall I continue?"

Antis: "uhhhh...Daenerys doesn't deserve to be queen!"

Me, an intellectual: Does anyone? Becoming a monarch isn't about deserving it. It's about having an idea: protecting those who cannot protect themselves. A king/queen doesn't rule. They serve the people. Daenerys has fought blood, sweat, and tears for people "below" her. She is a champion of the common people and has consistently been their voice in the world. Who, other than her, has the best claim/ability to be queen of the 7 Kingdoms?"

Antis: "Sansa! She deserves it more!"

Me, gagging: "Sansa, who despises anyone below her? Sansa, who is actually revolted by her little sister wearing boys clothes and being muddy? Sansa, who lied to Robert, which resulted in her wolf being killed, and continued to blame Arya for it when Arya and her friend were playing innocently and Joffrey ruined it? Sansa, who is selfish, cold, callous, and is actively poisoning her innocent, six year old cousin? That Sansa? She hasn't done anything to "deserve" a crown except look pretty and betray her family. Dany, however, has sacrificed and bled for her goals and continues to do so. She tries her hardest. Sansa hasn't worked for anything she has. Dany has.