#lyle crakehall

[kingslayerstew]

jaimeilyn from the perspective of jaimes entourage...

[nobodysuspectsthebutterfly]

And the quote is even more *chef's kiss* when you remember he's thinking it because he's losing a fight to a woman who is stronger than him and he can't beat with speed or skill.

i actually dont know where the “jaime thinks hes nothing compared to arthur” idea in terms of stick swinging comes from because i think this is the one area where his tendency to dickride him is outdone by unadulterated arrogance

[goodqueenaly]

What kind of rights - if any - would a divorced noblewoman have in Westeros? In the case where a husband wants to set aside an infertile wife who hasn't done anything wrong personally, would the ex-husband be required to make sure she was provided for or that her honour isn't damaged, or would she just instantly stop being his responsibility? Likewise, is there anything requiring the woman's birth family to take her in again, other than worrying about optics?

A couple things.

Number one, we have no idea of the extent to which divorce - as a separate concept from annulment - exists in Westeros. When commenting on the issue, GRRM merely said that "divorce simply isn’t common”, but did not elaborate. Is divorce a legal remedy for Westerosi married persons, and if so, by what means can married persons seek divorce? (Let’s not even get into the question of whether these rules apply equally to followers of the Faith versus followers of the old gods versus followers of the Drowned God.) Therefore, it is completely impossible to say whether a Westerosi man could even divorce (again, specifically divorce) his wife, much less what would happen to either party in such a scenario.

Number two, even if we just focus on annulment (which definitely does exist in Westeros), we have almost no idea on what grounds Westerosi married persons can seek such a remedy. The only confirmed reason why a Westerosi annulment can be granted is non-consummation, though given the example of Tyrion and Tysha (whose marriage was definitely consummated) it’s very probable that there are other grounds which can secure a legitimate annulment - we just don't know them all. Therefore, we have no idea whether “a husband [who] wants to set aside an infertile wife who hasn't done anything wrong personally” could even do so, much less what would happen to either party even if such an annulment could be granted. (Again, I’m not even going to begin to touch on how the various faiths of Westeros might differ on this point.)

Number three, we have virtually (more on that in a moment) no examples of a successfully obtained Westerosi annulment where the parties were both aristocrats and went on to live (separate) aristocratic lives. (I don’t count the historical example of King Garland II Gardener, given that we have no idea how he legally justified “putting his own wives aside to marry Lord Lymond’s [i.e. Lymond Hightower’s] daughter” nor what happened to these (unfortunately typically nameless) ladies afterward.) Tywin very pointedly, very specifically did not give one iota of a shit what happened to Tysha after he arranged for that marriage to be annulled (and for Tysha herself to be gang-raped). If Aegon V had any conception for what he planned to do for (or with) Jenny of Oldstones after he had the marriage between her and Prince Duncan annulled, we don’t know yet what those plans might have been. Moreover, Viserys I shut down the idea of annulling Prince Daemon’s marriage to Rhea Royce, while Jaehaerys I and Alysanne vocally resisted Rogar Baratheon’s attempt to annul their marriage in 49 AC, so there is not much to glean from these examples on what might have happened to the brides involve. 

Now, we may learn much more about how the Faith and greater Westerosi society treats formerly married persons in TWOW and in Fire and Blood Volume 2. With Lancel having taken the vows of a Warrior’s Son, Amerei is no longer Lady Lannister. Jaime just barely touched upon this point in AFFC - leaving Amerei at Darry “weeping softly at the dissolution of her marriage whilst letting Lyle Crakehall console her” - though his troubled observation of “the hard looks on the faces of her kin as they stood about the yard” may suggest that the Freys will have more to say in the future on how they (and indeed the rest of the world) think of Amerei now that she is no longer Lancel’s bride. Littlefinger, of course, plans on marrying Sansa to Harry Hardyng, and I think will cite the (well-known) fact that Sansa’s marriage to Tyrion was never consummated to have the local religious authorities of the Vale declare Sansa to be as she was prior to the Tyrion marriage - that is, a highborn maiden fit to be wed to Harry. Too, on a historical level, Baelor the Blessed famously had his marriage to Daena dissolved - and while Baelor himself thereafter imprisoned Daena (as well as her sisters) for the rest of his life, we don’t yet know how the rest of Baelor’s court saw Daena after the news of the dissolution.

[windriverdelta]

Minimal theory on Red Wedding 2.0

Inspired by this ask and answer by @nobodysuspectsthebutterfly which raised some legitimate concerns about the common fan theories - namely, that there is no explicit indication that the wedding by Daven Lannister will happen soon, nor that it will be in Riverrun.

True, there is no explicit statement. But let's look at how these events in Jaime's AFFC chapters look from the Frey perspective:

The two of them were huddled over a map, arguing heatedly, but they broke off when Jaime entered. "Lord Commander," Rivers said with cold courtesy, but Edwyn blurted out, "My father's blood is on your hands, ser."

"If you will pardon me for intruding on your grief," [Jaime Lannister] said, in a dry tone, "we have other matters to consider. When you return to the Twins, please inform Lord Walder that King Tommen requires all the captives you took at the Red Wedding."

Ser Walder frowned. "These prisoners are valuable, ser."

"His Grace would not ask for them if they were worthless." Frey and Rivers exchanged a look. Edwyn said, "My lord grandfather will expect recompense for these prisoners." And he'll have it, as soon as I grow a new hand, thought Jaime. "We all have expectations," he said mildly.

When Jaime had taken his leave of Lady Amerei, she had been weeping softly at the dissolution of her marriage whilst letting Lyle Crakehall console her. Her tears had not troubled him half so much as the hard looks on the faces of her kin as they stood about the yard. "I hope you do not intend to take vows as well, coz," he said to Daven. "The Freys are prickly where marriage contracts are concerned. I would hate to disappoint them again."

Ser Daven snorted. "I'll wed and bed my stoat, never fear. I know what happened to Robb Stark. From what Edwyn tells me, though, I'd best pick one who hasn't flowered yet, or I'm like to find that Black Walder has been there first. I'll wager he's had Gatehouse Ami, and more than thrice. Maybe that explains Lancel's godliness, and his father's mood."

To recap, the Freys lost the marriage to Lancel. Jaime has demanded the hostages the Freys took at the Red Wedding & did not promise compensation and treated the Freys pretty shabbily besides (Jaime's contempt for them is apparent throughout his POV chapters). And now Late Walder's heir, Ser Ryman, was killed seemingly because of Jaime. I think Late Walder is getting rather pissed and perhaps a bit worried. So I expect him to demand Daven's marriage, soonest. And the Lannisters, weakened by Cersei's arrest and Jaime's disappearance, will have to acquiesce.

But here's the thing: While I expect Walder to demand a wedding at the Twins, Daven has no obligation to have it there - as he says, he knows what happened to Robb Stark. I expect that Genna Lannister proposes to have the wedding in Riverrun. Possibly also to negotiate a bethrotal between Roslin's child from Edmure and her grandson Tywin Frey, as she alluded to. She is a Lannister already married to a Frey, so she has pull on both sides. Daven and Late Walder will agree, and the spy Tom O'Sevens will sing ... and the Brotherhood without Banners will know where to strike.

What I like about this is that it solves a problem with Jaime's storyline a few people have identified: If Brienne is bringing him to Lady Stoneheart, he's a dead man. Stoneheart would have him hanged on the spot, for being a Lannister, "Jaime Lannister sends his regards", and the trebuchet thing that Tom O'Sevens was around for. I don't buy the notion of a trial by combat in the slightest, Lady Stoneheart has never held any sort of fair trial for anyone...

...but if in the moment that Jaime meets Stoneheart, Tom O'Sevens' report of the impending marriage hits the Brotherhood without Banners? Then she might decide to handle Jaime and the wedding guests in one big slaughter. And an ongoing massacre might be the opportunity for Brienne to cut him free.

Oh yeah, and another thing. Tom O'Sevens was with Jaime before deciding to stay in Riverrun - and crucially, he was there for Jaime's demand that the hostages be handed over. Given that the Brotherhood managed to capture Ryman, I expect they'll be able to break these hostages free, thus gaining a lever with which to obtain the Riverlords' cooperation - and their troops, which per the sadly departed @racefortheironthrone (RIP) number about 10,000. Even a fraction of that should be sufficient to overwhelm any guard the Freys have, if (not "since"; we don't actually have numbers on the Brotherhood right now) the Brotherhood without Banners can't do it themselves. Note also that the other army loyal to King's Landing, Randyll Tarly's, has left the Riverlands after Margaery's arrest. The Freys and remnants of Lannisters are on their own.

PS: We know that Late Walder rode to King's Landing for a tourney a year before the War of Five Kings, so we know he's not immobile at the Twins. Given his spiteful nature, I can absolutely see him go to Riverrun to rub it in the Tullys' nose that he's now the top dog. And his attitude to apologies has the hallmarks of a GRRM threefold revelation: "What good are apologies? I ask you" in AGoT as a setup, "Oh, but I’ll make you an apology, that will mend them all again, heh" at the Red Wedding as reminder, and the payoff (h/t: @turtle-paced): Screaming apologies as Stoneheart murders him.

[aegor-bamfsteel]

What are the advantages Pinkmaiden castle holds for House Piper, based on its location? Meaning militarily and how productive it would be as a fief?

I haven’t done a Medieval Home and Gardening write up in a few months. We don’t know a lot about Pinkmaiden proper, but it did seem to play an important part in the War of the 5 Kings.

Militarily, it’s very important considering it guards the Westerlands/Riverlands border. That’s how the military hostilities of Wot5k start, by Jaime Lannister’s men defeating Lords Vance and Piper, thus opening up the Riverlands to the army. Following the Red Fork north it’s straight to Riverrun, which Jaime Lannister’s men was able to besiege. It’s also likely Pinkmaiden guards the Mummer’s Ford, which is a critical crossing point and site of another battle with Tywin’s forces. In turn, the Golden Tooth is the securest way to attack the Westerlands from the east (barring any goat paths), and Pinkmaiden is the closest large Riverlands settlement, so it’d be ideal for launching that attack. Apparently Tywin thought so as well, because he had Gregor burn the Piper lands, which have aforementioned strategic importance; but he either didn’t do that good of a job or Pinkmaiden is very sturdy (contrast poor Stone Hedge) because by ASOS several highborn westerland captives (Antario Jast, Lyle Crakehall) were held there. I guess it makes sense Pinkmaiden is sturdy, as it’s a border castle that guards the west entrance of the riverlands by Red Fork.

Economically, Pinkmaiden seems to have the living of at least the town at Mummer’s Ford, which is a cross point (good if they can charge tolls to cross), and is near running water which is good for building mills. It also seems like there are floodplains there before the hilly territory of the Westerlands, which would be good for planting wheat et al (though hard to defend). Considering it’s listed as one of the more significant settlements in the Riverlands, it probably makes a decent though not outstanding (like the Freys who can field more men than the Tullys) income.

[movieandgossip]

What's your opinion on Jorah Mormont?

Jorah is a bit of a tragic character. On paper he has everything he needs to have a happy and contented life, but unfortunately whenever he sees a beautiful woman he immediately gets +5 strength, +5 constitution and -20 intelligence.

Jorah was born to be a Lord. Not of a great or rich house, granted, but a well respected and proud one which was one of the few to possess a Valyrian ancestral sword. He was a strong, brave, and powerful man, who won fame fighting in Robert’s Rebellion and later in Greyjoy’s Rebellion, winning a knighthood from King Robert Baratheon himself after he was one of the first to breach the walls of Pyke.

Around this time, Jorah was made Lord of Bear Island as his father Jeor abdicated to join the Nights Watch. As a young-ish, unmarried Lord with a good reputation, Jorah was an extremely eligible bachelor, and had he married an appropriate woman he would have likely lived happily ever after.

Unfortunately this is Jorah we are talking about. He attended a tourney at Lannisport to celebrate the victory over the Greyjoys, where he fell head over heels for Lynesse Hightower, a beautiful woman from a rich southern family whom was less than half his age.

Spurred on by his desire for Lynesse, Jorah unexpectedly defeated everyone else including the famously good Jamie Lannister, Lyle Crakehall and Yohn Royce, and won the tournament. He then asked Lynesse’s father for her hand in marriage, which he accepted.

Things turned bad for Jorah almost immediately after the tourney. Having spent her whole life in a warm climate and a rich household, Lynesse hated life at Bear Island. In a desperate attempt to keep his wife happy, Jorah bankrupted himself giving her lavish gifts, hiring cooks and singers from Oldtown and building a luxurious ship for them to visit the south. Jorah participated in tourneys, but was never able to duplicate his success at Lannisport, so was forced to take loans to keep up his wife’s lavish lifestyle. Eventually, Jorah turned criminal in his desperation for money, becoming involved with the slave trade.

When Eddard Stark heard about Jorah’s involvement in the slave trade, he set out to Bear Island to arrest him, but Jorah and Lynesse fled to Lys before he could get there. With no money, Jorah was forced to become a sellsword. Whilst he was away fighting, Lynesse became the lover of a rich merchant named Tregar Ormollen and moved into his house. When Jorah returned from war, Tregar inform him that Lynesse was his property now, and if he didn’t leave Lys he would be arrested for his debts.

Heartbroken, Jorah wandered the free cities as a sellsword until he finds Viserys and Daenerys Targaryen, at which point the cycle begins again with Jorah falling madly in love with a woman that is both far too young for him (criminally so in Dany’s case) and completely uninterested in his advances.

Jorah is someone who just can’t think straight around women at all. He is someone who is willing to literally set all of his logical faculties or moral principles aside in order to make a woman like him, and worst of all, he seems completely unable to learn from his mistakes. He is a character who has a lot of noble qualities, but is almost impossible to empathise with because he just consistently makes such terrible decisions.

[goodqueenaly]

I think it's a bit of a complicated situation that may become more unstable in TWOW.

With the deaths of Ser Raymun Darry and his young son and heir Lyman in AGOT and ACOK, respectively, House Darry appears to have lost its last male-line male dynasts. The only remaining (known, living, legitimate) male-line Darrys are the late Raymun’s two sisters, Mariya (the elder) and Jeyne (the younger). Each of the Darry sisters married a Frey brother (or half-brother, technically), with Mariya marrying (the late) Merrett and Jeyne marrying (the late) Cleos. Mariya had three surviving daughters (Amerei, “Fat” Walda, and Marissa) and a son, “Little” Walder, while Jeyne had two sons, Tywin and Willem.

So when House Darry went extinct in the (legitimate) male line, and Tywin distributed Darry to his eldest nephew, Kevan sought to bolster Lancel’s claim through a quasi-Darry marriage. As the eldest child of the elder Darry daughter, Amerei had (and has) a strong claim in her own right to Darry (if, at the moment of the grant and betrothal, Amerei’s claim might have been argued to be slightly weaker, as purely a matter of male-preference primogeniture, than that of her younger brother). Jaime correctly recognized, when visiting the castle in AFFC, that “House Darry had ruled [its] lands since the Andals cast down the First Men”, and that Lances “would have an easier time of it if the peasants saw him as a continuation of the old line, holding these lands by right of marriage rather than royal decree”. Amerei was not named Lady of Darry in her own right - Tywin was far too keen on securing prizes for the Lannisters wherever he could - but her bloodline claim directly influenced her marriage to the crown’s appointed Lord of Darry.

However, with Lancel voluntarily surrendering the lordship to join the Warrior’s Sons (and leaving his bride childless), the question of the Darry succession is at best unclear. Genna Lannister offered a neat (for the Lannisters, anyway) solution, to substitute Lancel’s only surviving brother, Martyn, as Amerei’s lord husband, about as direct a transition of power from the crown’s original nominee as possible. Though Jaime countered Genna’s dynastic complaints about not receiving Darry in the first place by suggesting that Genna “write to Cersei and make your case”, Genna dismissed the idea, citing her husband’s ambition to “rule the riverlands” despite their own grant, of Riverrun, being in her opinion a “poisoned prize”. Interestingly, Genna does not nominate Cleos’ younger son, Willem, for the lordship, though as the only surviving, legitimate, eligible male of Darry blood remaining (since elder brother Tywin is set, ostensibly, to inherit Riverrun after his grandfather), Willem could, at least on paper, make a case for himself. Nor does the Darry question arise during Kevan’s last meeting with the small council (despite nearly every other political issue across Westeros being addressed, or at least noted).

So Darry, going into TWOW, has no clear heir, much less actively ruling and so-named lord (or lady). Is it possible that Amerei marries Lyle Crakehall, who consoled her as Jaime departed Darry, and Lyle claims Darry as its jure uxoris lord? Is it possible the remaining Freys at Darry are too distracted by wider circumstances to debate the problem (the antagonistic smallfolk Amerei so naively honestly reported to Jaime), perhaps even something like a second Red Wedding? Is it possible someone - like, say, the would-be King Aegon VI - distributes Darry to one of his supporters (perhaps to that bastard Darry cousin alluded to in the grant of Darry to Lancel, or at least someone who claims to be that person)? Any or none of these might be possible for Darry’s fate.

Given that she was the Lady of Darry, wouldn't Amerei technically rule the fiefdom?

I think part of that was the Lannister appointment of Lancel as the Lord of Darry in an attempt to consolidate control over the Riverlands via marriages and appointment of loyalists. Given that the authority was given through the Iron Throne's appointment of Lancel, who is disinterested, and given that the Iron Throne is about to have a whole boatload of other problems, that claim isn't very strong if Ami can't find people to enforce it.

Thanks for the question, Anon.

SomethingLikeALawyer, Hand of the King

[nogoodsheepstealing-greatgrandma]

[thebluelemontree]

Hi!!! love you blog!!! I am re-reading AFFC and it's look like GRRM is foreshadowing and setting up a showdown btween Sandor and Sir Lyle crackhall. Do you think they both you met in TWOW?

Hi and thank you!!! Um... Respectfully, my friend, no. I don’t think that’s what’s happening.  

I don’t think Ser Lyle’s (Strongboar’s) statements are a foreshadowing to a confrontation with the real Sandor Clegane anymore than Ser Tanton’s. Well, first of all, Sandor’s story doesn’t have any relevance to Lyle Crakehall. There’s no backstory between them. No conflict to resolve. Strongboar is in it purely for the glory-seeking. Hell, he even wanted a crack at The Blackfish. Hunting notorious outlaws is a means of earning honors and rewards for warriors not currently serving in military campaigns. There’s nothing that feels like his declared intentions have raised the stakes for Sandor in any way. This is a subplot of a subplot involving a tertiary character, which IMO, doesn’t feel like it fits with a redeemed Sandor’s return to the story. But even more than that, there are far better reasons to speculate that Lyle is destined to meet someone else instead.    

The biggest sought after fish in the region are Dondarrion, Thoros of Myr, the BwB, and the “Mad Dog of the Saltpans.” Rumor has it that all of these guys are in league with each other, which is not true at all, but this belief will be important later. It’s also important to note why this rumor was perpetuated:

"If [Sandor Clegane] is with Dondarrion . . . ?"

"He's not. Alyn is certain of that. Dondarrion's men are looking for him too. They have put out word that they mean to hang him for what he did at Saltpans. They had no part of that. Lord Randyll is putting it about that they did in hopes of turning the commons against Beric and his brotherhood. He will never take the lightning lord so long as the smallfolk are protecting him. -- Brienne V, AFFC. 

There are grains of truth but a lot of deliberate misinformation going around. Despite word of Dondarrion being killed by the Mountain, he’s still credited with leading assaults on anyone harming the smallfolk even well after he’s permanently dead. The BwB since broke into two factions, and one is now being led by Lady Stoneheart. Rumors of The Hangwoman, The Silent Sister, and Mother Merciless are just starting to enter the mix with their own partial truths. What matters is that the general consensus is that if you rout out the BwB, you find all the outlaw leaders, including Sandor Clegane. 

Of course, Sandor isn’t responsible for the Saltpans massacre. He was misidentified when Rorge stole the Hound’s helm from the cairn. Brienne killed Rorge at the inn at the crossroads while defending the orphans, but the true identity of the one responsible for the massacre is not yet common knowledge outside of the BwB. The Hounds helm found a new owner in Lem “Lemoncloak” of Stoneheart’s band.

"There is nothing good about that helm, nor the men who wore it," said the red priest. "Sandor Clegane was a man in torment, and Rorge a beast in human skin."

"I'm not them.”

"Then why show the world their face? Savage, snarling, twisted . . . is that who you would be, Lem?" 

"The sight of it will make my foes afraid."

"The sight of it makes me afraid." -- Brienne VIII, AFFC. 

Considering that Sandor is believed to be with the BwB, what do you think the chances are that Lem is being set up to be misidentified as the “Mad Dog of the Saltpans” in the very near future? The answer is high, very high. 

To trace Lem’s link to Strongboar, we need to back up a bit to the ASOS Epilogue and the hanging of Merritt Frey near Old Stones. The BwB lured Merritt under the pretense of ransoming his nephew, Petyr Pimple. It ends with the reveal of Lady Stoneheart, her confirming Merritt was a participant in the Red Wedding and Merritt’s hanging. Guess who is holding the other end of the noose when he’s strung up? Lem, identified as a man in a yellow cloak.  

Fast forward to Feast when Jaime has dinner with Lady Mariya (Merritt’s widow) and Lady Amerei Frey (Merritt’s daughter) who is now married to Lancel Lannister at Castle Darry. They have a long conversation about who killed Merritt, the Saltpans massacre, and the whereabouts of the BwB.  

[Jaime] turned back to Lady Mariya. "The outlaws who killed your husband . . . was it Lord Beric's band?"

"So we thought, at first." Though Lady Mariya's hair was streaked with grey, she was still a handsome woman. "The killers scattered when they left Oldstones. Lord Vypren tracked one band to Fairmarket, but lost them there. Black Walder led hounds and hunters into Hag's Mire after the others. The peasants denied seeing them, but when questioned sharply they sang a different song. They spoke of a one-eyed man and another who wore a yellow cloak . . and a woman, cloaked and hooded." -- Jaime IV, AFFC.

Guess who is also sitting at the table? Lyle Crakehall, who will now be on the lookout for the man in the yellow cloak. Surely, if/when he does see this man, he’ll also be wearing the Hound’s helm. 

Strongboar filled his cup again. "Lady Mariya, Lady Amerei, your distress has moved me. You have my word, once Riverrun has fallen I shall return to hunt down the Hound and kill him for you. Dogs do not frighten me." 

This one should. Both men were large and powerful, but Sandor Clegane was much quicker, and fought with a savagery that Lyle Crakehall could not hope to match.

Lady Amerei was thrilled, however. "You are a true knight, Ser Lyle, to help a lady in distress." -- Jaime IV, AFFC.

And uh, Strongboar might have also thought to sweeten the victory a bit because Amerei has a bit of a reputation and he’s seen her flirting with Jaime across the table as she asked him to hunt the outlaws. As Aunt Genna says “you know why they call her Gatehouse Ami? She raises her portcullis for every knight who happens by.”

Then later after Riverrun is sorted out:

Strongboar was the next to depart. He wanted to return to Darry as he'd promised and fight the outlaws. "We rode across half the bloody realm and for what? So you could make Edmure Tully piss his breeches? There's no song in that. I need a fight. I want the Hound, Jaime. Him, or the marcher lord."

"The Hound's head is yours if you can take it," Jaime said, "but Beric Dondarrion is to be captured alive, so he can be brought back to King's Landing. A thousand people need to see him die, or else he won't stay dead." Strongboar grumbled at that, but finally agreed. -- Jaime VII, AFFC. 

Darry’s ownership is currently in limbo since Lancel renounced his lordship and unconsummated marriage to Amerei so he could join the Warrior’s Sons. Genna speculates that Kevan will marry his other son, Martyn, to Amerei instead and claim Darry. But it is worth considering that a second son like Ser Lyle might then hope to wed Amerei himself and gain the lordship of Darry Castle in his own right. What better way to do that than by doing what Lancel could not? He isn’t allowed to kill Beric, but it’s open season on the Hound and he swore as a knight that he would avenge Merrit’s murder by killing the Hound for Mariya and Amerei.   

So where is Lem right now?  He has to be still around the outskirts of the Fairmarket area since that’s where he was last seen attempting to hang Brienne, Hyle, and Podrick. Brienne then shows up at Pennytree, just west of Fairmarket, where she reunites with Jaime, supposedly to lead him back to Stoneheart and the BwB. Brienne tells Jaime that the Hound has Sansa and that they are located not too far away. "A day's ride. I can take you to her, ser … but you will need to come alone. Elsewise, the Hound will kill her." There were two guards present to witness their exchange. 

Darry is half a day’s ride south of the Trident. If Strongboar is in Darry in TWOW, he will probably head north from there after word gets around that Jaime Lannister has gone missing (my guess) while riding out to meet the Hound, his quarry. That would be some powerful motivation to ride fast and headlong into BwB controlled territory, where he would see the man in a yellow cloak with a Hound’s helm. Who would win in that fight? No idea.  Maybe one dies, or both. I could definitely see Ser Lyle looking upon the unburned face of a nobody under the helm and realizing he didn’t bag the big prize he desperately wanted all. 

[a-song-of-art-and-fire]

Ser Lyle Crakehall, The Strongboar

"We rode across half the bloody realm and for what? So you could make Edmure Tully piss his breeches? There's no song in that. I need a fight."

One of my favourite minor characters - I'm in love with all of Jaime's FeastDance arc. Strongboar is an interesting guy, he's kind of the big guy who likes to fight and eat trope, but he's actually pretty considerate and kind and has a good sense of chivalry. I really hope after Lancel meets his inevitable tragic demise, Strongboar's around to settle down with Ami (and maybe a few friends if it's all consensual and chill).

The mini was one I customised myself (the makers of the game haven't gotten aboard that Crakehall hype train), he's one of the mountain's men (for the chunky stoutness) with one of the same crested helmets I used for Rhaegar. Finally the cloth wraps are in Lannister colours to show his allegiance.

[grennseyelashes]

Disregard the foolish tags on the original post, the drowned god has revealed to me that it was Lyle Crakehall. Of course.

Aeron Greyjoy had a beloved jail boyfriend in the lannisport dungeons and drowned (the second time) on his way to see him again after he got released, and that's the (other) reason he's like that btw. I know this because I'm the Aeron understander, the drowned god sent me to spread the word

[winordie-rpg]

“...deserves a nobler death, and I'm the man to give it to him. I will challenge him to single combat. Mace or axe or longsword, makes no matter. The old man will be my meat.”

SUGGESTED FACECLAIMS: can yaman, serkan çayoğlu, & berk cankat

[chaosrpg]

Wanted Connection + 1

TYBOLT CRAKEHALL ( @ofcrakehall) is looking for his brother, LYLE CRAKEHALL.

Connection requested for: Tybolt Crakehall Type of Connection: Brother Name/House: Lyle Crakehall Age: 29-31 Allegiance: Lannister for show but their loyalty is to the Westerlands Requested FC: Tom Hopper or any other fc who could match Lyle’s broad description Background Information/Headcanons: A brief description of him can be found here. With regards to the relationship between the brothers, I imagine it more functional than close. There’s some amount of respect between the two of them and they are undeniably loyal to each other and their House but with Lyle favouring more military pursuits and Tybolt focusing on politics, I think that sometimes they struggle to connect with one another. The Crakehalls have recently los their father ( more detail can be found here ) are currently continuing to carry out his wish of returning the lands that have been invaded and on a much more secret note, eventually overthrow the Lannisters as Lord Paramounts of The Westerlands. Lyle will be a vital part of this plan and supporting his brother through it while providing hugely crucial skills as well. He had been supposed to marry Rosamund Lannister, who had been staying with their family, but a formal betrothal was never made and Lyle was mostly disinterested in the match (the reasons for this can be UTP). Does the applicant need to contact you before applying? Yes please. You can find me @ofcrakehall

[istumpysk]

Operation Stumpy Re-Read

AFFC: Jaime V (Chapter 33)

Ser Daven's [Daven Lannister, Warden of the West] gaze went to Jaime's stump. "So it's true. The bastards took your sword hand."

[...]

"Was it Catelyn Stark who took it?"

"Vargo Hoat." Where do these tales come from?

"The Qohorik?" Ser Daven spat. "That's for him and all his Brave Companions. I told your father I would forage for him, but he refused me. Some tasks are fit for lions, he said, but foraging is best left for goats and dogs."

Once again, let's all take a moment to appreciate how well this worked out.

By the end of this series, the author is going to make sure the reader understands every decision Tywin Lannister ever made in his life was wrong.

+.+.+

"I'm Lewys Piper, if it please my lord."

"I beat your brother bloody in a mêlée once. The runty little fool took offense when I asked him if that was his sister dancing naked on his shield."

"She's the sigil of our House. We don't have a sister."

He he.

+.+.+

Jaime lifted his own cup left-handed and took a swallow. The warmth spread through his chest. "You were speaking of the Freys you wanted dead. Ryman, Edwyn, Emmon . . ."

"And Walder Rivers," Daven said, "that whoreson. Hates that he's a bastard, and hates everyone who's not. Ser Perwyn seems a decent fellow, though, might as well spare him. The women too. I'm to marry one, I hear. Your father might have seen fit to consult with me about this marriage, by the bye. My own father was treating with Paxter Redwyne before Oxcross, did you know? Redwyne has a nicely dowered daughter . . ."

That's the second time Desmera Redwyne has been inserted into this book. Samwell was also supposed to marry her.

And more Frey business!

Are we giving Ser Perwyn Good Frey status then? Sure, why not. Someone remember that name, because I won't.

A poster on Reddit was kind enough to make a Frey line of succession that goes all the way down to Big Walder Frey (#30!). Remember Big Walder Frey?

Little Walder objected. "And neither of us will ever hold the Twins, stupid."

"I will," Big Walder declared. - Bran I, ACOK

I'm in love with the idea of that being foreshadowing, so we're going to track it.

Daven names Ryman, Edwyn, Emmon, and Walder Rivers as Freys he wants to see dead. Count on it happening.

Ryman Frey (previously 2nd in line) will soon be killed.

We don't care about Walder Rivers, so that leaves Edwyn, and Emmon.

Progress! We're making progress.

+.+.+

When Jaime had taken his leave of Lady Amerei, she had been weeping softly at the dissolution of her marriage whilst letting Lyle Crakehall console her. Her tears had not troubled him half so much as the hard looks on the faces of her kin as they stood about the yard. "I hope you do not intend to take vows as well, coz," he said to Daven. "The Freys are prickly where marriage contracts are concerned. I would hate to disappoint them again."

Oh yeah, I totally forgot this is another broken marriage contract. Bwah!

+.+.+

Ser Daven snorted. "I'll wed and bed my stoat, never fear. I know what happened to Robb Stark. From what Edwyn tells me, though, I'd best pick one who hasn't flowered yet, or I'm like to find that Black Walder has been there first. I'll wager he's had Gatehouse Ami, and more than thrice. Maybe that explains Lancel's godliness, and his father's mood."

Are you telling me Black Walder is de-flowering all his blood relatives?

+.+.+

"I would, but where to begin? Whilst I've been building rams and siege towers, Ryman Frey has raised a gibbet. Every day at dawn he brings forth Edmure Tully, drapes a noose around his neck, and threatens to hang him unless the castle yields. The Blackfish pays his mummer's show no mind, so come evenfall Lord Edmure is taken down again.

I'm sorry, I love Blackfish, lol.

+.+.+

His wife's with child, did you know?"

He hadn't. "Edmure bedded her, after the Red Wedding?"

"He was bedding her during the Red Wedding. Roslin's a pretty little thing, hardly stoatish at all. And fond of Edmure, queerly. Perwyn tells me she's praying for a girl."

Jaime considered that a moment. "Once Edmure's son is born, Lord Walder will have no more need of Edmure."

"That's how I see it too. Our good-uncle Emm . . . ah, Lord Emmon, that is . . . he wants Edmure hanged at once. The presence of a Tully Lord of Riverrun distresses him almost as much as the prospective birth of yet another. Daily he beseeches me to make Ser Ryman dangle Tully, never mind how. Meanwhile, I have Lord Gawen Westerling tugging at my other sleeve. The Blackfish has his lady wife inside the castle, along with three of his snot-nosed whelps. His lordship fears Tully will kill them if the Freys hang Edmure. One of them is the Young Wolf's little queen."

Jaime had met Jeyne Westerling, he thought, though he could not recall what she looked like. She must be fair indeed, to have been worth a kingdom. "Ser Brynden won't kill children," he assured his cousin.

Ser Brynden won't, but something else might? You never know what pack of animals you might run into near the Golden Tooth.

Nobody can produce an heir in this story, and then there's Edmure Tully. We still don't know the sex, but on the show it was a boy.

+.+.+

Ser Daven shook his head. "The Blackfish expelled all the useless mouths from Riverrun and picked this country clean. He has enough stores to keep man and horse alive for two full years."

I know this was wrong, but I so desperately want him to succeed, I'm having a difficult time holding it against him. Fight on, Blackfish!

+.+.+

Half the men I send off to look for food do not return. Some are deserting. Others we find ripening under trees, with ropes about their necks."

"We came on some, the day before last," said Jaime. Addam Marbrand's scouts had found them, hanging black-faced beneath a crabapple tree. The corpses had been stripped naked, and each man had a crabapple shoved between his teeth. None bore any wounds; plainly, they had yielded. Strongboar had grown furious at that, vowing bloody vengeance on the heads of any men who would truss up warriors to die like suckling pigs.

Is the Brotherhood treating enemies like food now?

+.+.+

"It might have been outlaws," Ser Daven said, when Jaime told the tale, "or not. There are still bands of northmen about. And these Lords of the Trident may have bent their knees, but methinks their hearts are still . . . wolfish."

It's easy to forget the riverlands remain as committed to seceding as the north.

That's made clear throughout this chapter.

Your lightning lord's not the only man who knows how to tie a noose. Don't get me started on Lord Beric. He's here, he's there, he's everywhere, but when you send men after him, he melts away like dew. The river lords are helping him, never doubt it.

+.+.+

Jaime glanced at his two younger squires, who were hovering near the braziers pretending not to listen. Lewys Piper and Garrett Paege were both the sons of river lords. He had grown fond of both of them and would hate to have to give them to Ser Ilyn.

Feeling sad about having to kill your squires, because of the actions of their fathers. This is what a redemption arc looks like, folks.

+.+.+

Ser Daven put his wine cup down. "My scouts report fires in the high places at night. Signal fires, they think . . . as if there were a ring of watchers all around us. And there are fires in the villages as well. Some new god . . ."

I support any rebellion, even if a bloodthirsty dead thing is in charge.

+.+.+

"I mean to offer him [Blackfish] generous terms." If he could end this siege without bloodshed, then it could not be said that he had taken up arms against House Tully.

In my world, laying siege to their ancestral castle counts.

+.+.+

"How is Cersei? As beautiful as ever?"

"Radiant." 

+.+.+

Last night he dreamed he'd found her fucking Moon Boy. He'd killed the fool and smashed his sister's teeth to splinters with his golden hand, just as Gregor Clegane had done to poor Pia. In his dreams Jaime always had two hands; one was made of gold, but it worked just like the other. 

Still tormented by Moon Boy. Hahahaha.

You're allowed to laugh at this, because he would never hurt her.

+.+.+

"The sooner we are done with Riverrun, the sooner I'll be back at Cersei's side." What Jaime would do then he did not know.

He won't tell you, but I will.

They'll have sex, and make another baby.

+.+.+

Across the river wolves were howling, and the wind was gusting through a stand of willows, making their branches writhe and whisper. 

BRAN?!

+.+.+

Jaime found Ser Ilyn Payne alone outside his tent, honing his greatsword with a whetstone. "Come," he said, and the silent knight rose, smiling thinly. He enjoys this, he realized. It pleases him to humiliate me nightly. It might please him even more to kill me.

Guys, help, I like Ilyn Payne.

+.+.+

For a little while Jaime had the better of it. Perhaps his old skill was coming back, he allowed himself to think. Perhaps tonight it would be Payne who went to sleep bruised and bloody.

It was as if Ser Ilyn heard his thoughts. He parried Jaime's last cut lazily and launched a counterattack that drove Jaime back into the river, where his boot slipped out from under him in the mud. He ended on his knees, with the silent knight's sword at his throat and his own lost in the reeds.

I don't have much faith Jaime's going to be a strong swordsman by the end of this series.

+.+.+

He made that clacking sound that might have been a laugh and drew his sword up Jaime's throat till the point came to rest between his lips. Only then did he step back and sheathe his steel.

What a dick, lol.

Anyway, throat and lips. Incheresting.

+.+.+

The Tully castle looked like a great stone ship with its prow pointed downriver. Its sandstone walls were drenched in red-gold light, and seemed higher and thicker than Jaime had remembered. This nut will not crack easily, he thought gloomily. If the Blackfish would not listen, he would have no choice but to break the vow he'd made to Catelyn Stark. The vow he'd sworn his king came first.

You might be dead if it wasn't for that vow to Catelyn Stark, but I digress.

In his mind, he serves House Lannister first and foremost, never forget that.

+.+.+

"Ser Ryman don't want his boys getting bored, so he gives them whores and cockfights and boar baiting," Ser Daven said. "He's even got himself a bloody singer. Our aunt brought Whitesmile Wat from Lannisport, if you can believe it, so Ryman had to have a singer too. Couldn't we just dam the river and drown the whole lot of them, coz?"

Many have predicted Whitesmile Wat will be the TWOW Prologue POV. Solid guess.

Ser Ryman's singer is Tom of Sevenstreams. The Brotherhood without Banners have infiltrated.

+.+.+

Jaime could see archers moving behind the merlons on the castle ramparts. Above them streamed the banners of House Tully, the silver trout defiant on its striped field of red and blue. But the highest tower flew a different flag; a long white standard emblazoned with the direwolf of Stark. 

Fly those banners! I believe in you Blackfish!

+.+.+

"The first time I saw Riverrun, I was a squire green as summer grass," Jaime told his cousin. "Old Sumner Crakehall sent me to deliver a message, one he swore could not be entrusted to a raven. Lord Hoster kept me for a fortnight whilst mulling his reply, and sat me beside his daughter Lysa at every meal."

Pretty sure Tywin arranged that trip.

"I once hoped to marry your brother to Lysa Tully, but Aerys named Jaime to his Kingsguard before the arrangements were complete. When I suggested to Lord Hoster that Lysa might be wed to you instead, he replied that he wanted a whole man for his daughter." - Tyrion III, ASOS

+.+.+

"Oh, Lysa was not so fearsome as all that." She had been a pretty girl, in truth; dimpled and delicate, with long auburn hair. Timid, though. Prone to tongue-tied silences and fits of giggles, with none of Cersei's fire. Her older sister had seemed more interesting, though Catelyn was promised to some northern boy, the heir of Winterfell . . . but at that age, no girl interested Jaime half so much as Hoster's famous brother, who had won renown fighting the Ninepenny Kings upon the Stepstones. 

🗣 Gayyyyy.

+.+.+

Jaime noted the banners of Lychester and Vance, of Roote and Goodbrook, the acorns of House Smallford and Lord Piper's dancing maiden, but the banners he did not see gave him pause. The silver eagle of Mallister was nowhere in evidence; nor the red horse of Bracken, the willow of the Rygers, the twining snakes of Paege. Though all had renewed their fealty to the Iron Throne, none had come to join the siege. The Brackens were fighting the Blackwoods, Jaime knew, which accounted for their absence, but as for the rest . . .

Our new friends are no friends at all. Their loyalty goes no deeper than their skins.

It's a Grand Riverlands Conspiracy!

I don't understand how the north will be independent without the riverlands joining them. There's something off about this Game of Thrones ending.

+.+.+

Pia was fussing at a brazier, trying to light the coals. Peck went to help her. Of late, Jaime oft went to sleep to the sound of them fucking in a corner of the tent. 

I hope it's annoying.

+.+.+

Jaime hugged her [Genna Lannister] dutifully and waited for her to pinch his ear. She had been pinching his ear for as long as he could remember, but today she forbore. Instead, she planted soft and sloppy kisses on his cheeks. "I am sorry for your loss."

"I had a new hand made, of gold." He showed her.

"Very nice. Will they make you a gold father too?" Lady Genna's voice was sharp. "Tywin was the loss I meant."

Lol.

"I am sorry for your loss as well, Joffrey," the dwarf said.

"What loss?"

"Your royal father? A large fierce man with a black beard; you'll recall him if you try. He was king before you." - Sansa I, ACOK

+.+.+

A pinkish froth glistened on Ser Emmon's lips when he spoke, courtesy of the sourleaf he liked to chew.

Everyone say goodbye to Emmon Frey, Lord of Riverrun.

+.+.+

"His [Cleos Frey, son of Genna Lannister] bones should be interred beneath the Rock, in the Hall of Heroes," Lady Genna declared. "Where was he laid to rest?"

Nowhere. The Bloody Mummers stripped his corpse and left his flesh to feast the carrion crows. "Beside a stream," he lied. "When this war is done, I will find the place and send him home." Bones were bones; these days, nothing was easier to come by.

He has good intentions, but I would be infuriated if I ever learned those bones didn't belong to my son. And I'm not even sentimental about dead bodies.

+.+.+

"This war . . ." Lord Emmon cleared his throat, the apple in his throat moving up and down. "You will have seen the siege machines. Rams, trebuchets, towers. It will not serve, Jaime. Daven means to break my walls, smash in my gates. He talks of burning pitch, of setting the castle afire. My castle." He reached up one sleeve, brought out a parchment, and thrust it at Jaime's face. "I have the decree. Signed by the king, by Tommen, see, the royal seal, the stag and lion. I am the lawful lord of Riverrun, and I will not have it reduced to a smoking ruin."

Make it a good death, George. Use your imagination.

+.+.+

"Ser Jaime, your lord father's faith in me was well placed, you shall see. I mean to be firm but fair with my new vassals. Blackwood and Bracken, Jason Mallister, Vance and Piper, they shall learn that they have a just overlord in Emmon Frey. My father as well, yes. He is the Lord of the Crossing, but I am the Lord of Riverrun. A son has a duty to obey his father, true, but a bannerman must obey his overlord."

Oh, gods be good. "You are not his overlord, ser. Read your parchment. You were granted Riverrun with its lands and incomes, no more. Petyr Baelish is the Lord Paramount of the Trident. Riverrun will be subject to the rule of Harrenhal."

That did not please Lord Emmon.

The only time I've smiled after being reminded of this.

It will flip back, but don't ask me to explain how the King of Westeros and the Lord Paramount of the Trident will rule from the same region.

+.+.+

Tyrion used to say that Lord Tywin had given him a nervous belly for a wedding gift. Genna has played her part as well. Jaime remembered many a feast where Emmon sat poking at his food sullenly whilst his wife made ribald jests with whatever household knight had been seated to her left, their conversations punctuated by loud bursts of laughter. She gave Frey four sons, to be sure. At least she says they are his. No one in Casterly Rock had the courage to suggest otherwise, least of all Ser Emmon.

What am I supposed to do with this information?

+.+.+

"Once Emm heard he was a lord, he had to come at once to claim his seat." Lady Genna took a drink and wiped her mouth on her sleeve. "Your father should have granted us Darry. Cleos married one of the plowman's daughters, you will recall. His grieving widow is furious that her sons were not granted her lord father's lands. Gatehouse Ami is Darry only on her mother's side. My good-daughter Jeyne is her aunt, a full sister to Lady Mariya."

"A younger sister," Jaime reminded her, "and Ty will have Riverrun, a greater prize than Darry."

"A poisoned prize. House Darry is extinguished in the male line, House Tully is not. That muttonhead Ser Ryman puts a noose round Edmure's neck, but will not hang him. And Roslin Frey has a trout growing in her belly. My grandsons will never be secure in Riverrun so long as any Tully heir remains alive."

She was not wrong, Jaime knew. "If Roslin has a girl—"

"—she can wed Ty, provided old Lord Walder will consent. Yes, I've thought of that. A boy is just as likely, though, and his little cock would cloud the issue.

[...]

Tywin should have granted Riverrun to Kevan and Darry to Emm. I would have told him so if he had troubled to ask me, but when did your father ever consult with anyone but Kevan?

See, even Genna knows Tywin's a doofus.

+.+.+

And if Ser Brynden should survive this siege, he might be inclined to claim Riverrun in his own name . . . or in the name of young Robert Arryn."

Oh wow, what is that? Should he survive the siege? Dot, dot, dot?. . .

Go to the Vale, Brynden. Please oh please go to the Vale, Brynden. They know you there, Brynden. Return to your gate, Brynden. Get yourself an army, Brynden. Go get your great-niece great-nephew, Brynden.

+.+.+

"Reasons?" Lady Genna made a rude noise. "They had best be good reasons. The Swords and Stars troubled even the Targaryens. The Conqueror himself tread carefully with the Faith, so they would not oppose him. And when Aegon died and the lords rose up against his sons, both orders were in the thick of that rebellion. The more pious lords supported them, and many of the smallfolk. King Maegor finally had to put a bounty on them. He paid a dragon for the head of any unrepentant Warrior's Son, and a silver stag for the scalp of a Poor Fellow, if I recall my history. Thousands were slain, but nigh as many still roamed the realm, defiant, until the Iron Throne slew Maegor and King Jaehaerys agreed to pardon all those who would set aside their swords."

"I'd forgotten most of that," Jaime confessed.

"You and your sister both." 

Genna Lannister at family dinners:

+.+.+

"What would you counsel?"

She gave a ponderous shrug. "Emm wants Edmure's head off. For once, he may be right. Ser Ryman has made us a laughingstock with that gibbet of his. You need to show Ser Brynden that your threats have teeth."

I desperately hope that guarantees Edmure will be a big problem for them in the future.

That man is not making it to Casterly Rock.

+.+.+

"I mean to offer him good terms."

"Terms require trust. The Freys murdered guests beneath their roof, and you, well . . . I mean no offense, my love, but you did kill a certain king you had sworn to protect."

"And I'll kill the Blackfish if he does not yield." His tone was harsher than he'd intended, but he was in no mood for having Aerys Targaryen thrown in his face.

"How, with your tongue?" Her voice was scornful.

Lol, thank you.

+.+.+

Is it true that Cersei burned the Red Keep?"

"Only the Tower of the Hand."

So far.

+.+.+

She pushed herself to her feet. "I've said what I came to say, I shan't take any more of your time. Do what Tywin would have done."

"Did you love him?" Jaime heard himself ask.

His aunt looked at him strangely. "I was seven when Walder Frey persuaded my lord father to give my hand to Emm. His second son, not even his heir. Father was himself a thirdborn son, and younger children crave the approval of their elders. Frey sensed that weakness in him, and Father agreed for no better reason than to please him. My betrothal was announced at a feast with half the west in attendance. Ellyn Tarbeck laughed and the Red Lion went angry from the hall. The rest sat on their tongues. 

Is this one of the reasons they rebelled?

+.+.+

Only Tywin dared speak against the match. A boy of ten. Father turned as white as mare's milk, and Walder Frey was quivering." She smiled. "How could I not love him, after that? That is not to say that I approved of all he did, or much enjoyed the company of the man that he became . . . but every little girl needs a big brother to protect her. Tywin was big even when he was little."

Yes. :)

+.+.+

She gave a sigh. "Who will protect us now?"

Jaime kissed her cheek. "He left a son."

"Aye, he did. That is what I fear the most, in truth."

That was a queer remark. "Why should you fear?"

"Jaime," she said, tugging on his ear, "sweetling, I have known you since you were a babe at Joanna's breast. You smile like Gerion and fight like Tyg, and there's some of Kevan in you, else you would not wear that cloak . . . but Tyrion is Tywin's son, not you.

If you needed any more evidence that Tyrion Lannister is a major antagonist in this story, there it is.

Final thoughts:

As much as I love the twins, I've recently discovered there's such thing as too much Lannister.

-> return to menu <-

[rosalinesurvived]

"Westeros has two queens now, and the young one is as beautiful as the old one," boomed Lyle Crakehall, an oaf of a knight who oft reminded Cersei of her late and unlamented husband. She could have slapped him.

Cersei III AFFC

Jaime felt his anger rising. "True, Loras does not leer at your teats the way Ser Osmund does, but I hardly think—"

"Think about this." Cersei slapped his face.

Jaime III AFFC

Cersei itched to slap his solemn, pious face.

Cersei VI

Seated on her gold-and-crimson high seat beneath the Iron Throne, Cersei could feel a growing tightness in her neck. Must, she thought. She dares say "must" to me. She itched to slap the Tyrell girl across the face.

Cersei VII

The thing is, the best lies have some truth in 'em . . . to give 'em flavor, as it were. And you want me to go tell how I fucked a queen . . ."

She almost slapped his face. Almost

Cersei IX AFFC

She is beauty, she is Her Grace, she will gladly slap you across the face

[reginarubie]

The younger, more beautiful Queen - Cersei and Sansa (and Daenerys and Margaery; and Brienne of Tarth)

When Cersei recalls Maggy the Frog's prophecy about her being casted down by a younger, more beautiful queen we were all ready, thinking that younger, more beautiful Queen was supposed to be Sansa; then Margaery entered the picture and how could anyone actually ignore the dragon queen in the east and the threat she posed to Cersei and everything she stood for?

At which point many theorized each and every of three girls, younger and all described as beautiful may be the younger, more beautiful queen and would fulfill a part of Cersei's prophecy, each taking something she cared for from her. Which has many merits, especially thinking about how much Martin dislikes prophecies and likes playing around with them nudging towards the realization that we as people are the one who make our own destiny with Cersei being the real catalyst of everything Maggy the Frog prophetized for her.

Under the cut, my own personal vision of this prophecy and why I think that, no matter who will actually cause Cersei's downfall directly, Sansa (assuming she ending as QitN is also book!endgame, which we have good reason to believe it shall be so) is actually the younger, more beautiful queen.

People way more talented than me have already talked about this matter, but I wanted to give my input about it as well because I like to talk and this has been sitting in my files way too long and now I've decided to share with you all to see what you think about it.

Beneath her golden curls, the girl's face wrinkled up in puzzlement. For years after, she took those words to mean that she would not marry Rhaegar until after his father Aerys had died. "I will be queen, though?" asked the younger her.

"Aye." Malice gleamed in Maggy's yellow eyes. "Queen you shall be ... until there comes another, younger and more beautiful, to cast you down and take all that you hold dear."

Anger flashed across the child's face. "If she tries I will have my brother kill her."

Maggy 's prophecy has haunted Cersei all these years since first the words had been uttered and it's no wonder. Now, we know Cersei married the king - Robert Baratheon, first of his name - after he had won the Realm through conquest and we also know that the other part of Maggy's prophecy, about Cersei having three children and the King many more than her. So it stands to reason that this part may also come to be true in some way or the other.

Though show!canon has derailed and distanced itself from book!canon, it must hold some kind of importance that Cersei asks Jaime to find Sansa and kill her especially if we connect it with what child Cersei told Maggy the Frog "if she tries I will have my brother kill her"; while she easily, in the show, decides she will be the one to cause Margaery demise as well as Daenerys's.

But let's break the prophecy and try to determinate what exactly it may mean to Cersei now.

Maggy tells her that she will be the Queen for a time, which we know to be the truth, and that she will have three children while the king (Robert) will have over seventeen. She also tells Cersei that one day another may come, that she will be younger and more beautiful.

Note, the first person we know Cersei describes as beautiful, by her words, is Sansa both in show and the book.

In the very first episode of the series, when Martin was still very much part of the writing process of the episodes, Cersei comments on Sansa's beauty and on how it would be wasted in the North (foreshadowing in my opinion Sansa growing past her enamourment with beauty and return North to stay, but I digress).

While in Sansa VI, AGOT, she states "such a beautiful child. I do hope you know how much Joffrey and I love you"

Also, note that this is said about Margaery Tyrell in AFFC in Cersei III: “When all the vows were spoken, the king and his new queen stepped outside the sept to accept congratulations. "Westeros has two queens now, and the young one is as beautiful as the old one," boomed Lyle Crakehall, an oaf of a knight who oft reminded Cersei of her late and unlamented husband.”

(Guess maybe it can’t be Margaery after all tho I do remember someone saying someone else, someone younger — Catelyn about Sansa — would grow even more beautiful than she was and though she did not mean to confront Sansa with Cersei, but with herself, the phrasing did stuck me as strange)

So this girl coming to cast Cersei down will be younger (and all candidates for the place are younger than Cersei) and more beautiful (now this could be as simple as a math count of how many times each candidate is described as beautiful and confront that number with Cersei's).

The counts now stands as following:

Sansa: 18 times (without sharing those times with anyone, all on her own; 2 times she is defined as more beautiful than someone older)

Drawing by @innocent-enyo; sorry I took your pics, I fell in love with them! If it bothers you I will take them down!

Cersei: 17 times (thyo sometimes shared with Margaery so the counts, if we count the shared times with Margaery goes up to 20)

Drawing always by innocent-enyo.

[honorable mention] Brienne of Tarth: 8 times (wouldn’t it be just perfect if Brienne did manage of convince Jaime to fuck loyalty and follow her instead of Cersei? Oh wait… that’s already show canon) after all if every girl can be the another younger, more beautiful who will take (something) everything from Cersei why not Brienne the Beauty?, especially since it’s said sarcastically yet she is far more fair and beautiful in character than Cersei is. I would appreciate the irony and the twist, all I am saying 🤷🏼‍♀️

Drawing by Lucas Werneck.

Margaery: 7 times(of which 3 shared with Cersei)

Margaery Tyrell by innocent-enyo as well.

Daenerys: only 5 times (?! I am surprised as well, tho to be fair she is described as the most beautiful woman in the world once and she was asked if she had grown more beautiful in a lapse of time, but never confronted to another older)

Daenerys Targaryen by innocent-enyo again!

So we have a neck-to-neck between Sansa and Cersei.

And tho I do think each girl will fulfill part of the prophecy (to save Margaery from her marriage to Joffrey he is killed, which catalyses the series of events which brings to Tywin’s death and Myrcella’s; Brienne did convince in the show Jaime to leave Cersei behind for a time; Sansa took her legacy in a way becoming the second ruling queen of a kingdom of Westeros; Margaery in a way took away Tommen as well in the show since learning of her death he committed suicide; Daenerys took the throne and the promise of the child in the show) I think Sansa will be in the end the younger more beautiful queen because the stress on the prophecy is put on the fact that this Queen will take everything Cersei’s holds dear…

…what did Cersei want? [note; now we enter in the show only realm and book hypothesis of the story since we have yet to see the last two books]

To save and protect those she loved; she failed by her ultimate fault;

have the younger, more beautiful queen and enemy killed by her brother (lover)

To sit on the throne as queen regnant because she feels she deserves it.

To be with the man she loves publicly.

What did Sansa achieve by the end of the show:

She marched her troops South and managed to get Jon free and her plotting assured that her siblings were safe (they protected her as well)

Her “brother” (lover?, Martin I have faith in you) killed her rival (Daenerys) to protect her and their family.

She gains the North independence and is named Queen in the North and is the queen with the strongest power love and loyalty (“Ned Stark’s daughter will speak for them, she’s the best they could ask for” and “we didn’t choose you to rule us m’lady but perhaps we should have”)

I truly believe in the books she will end up (or it will be hinted at) with a man she loves or will grow to love.

So, imo, while each and every girl may take something from Cersei and perhaps none of them (fAegon I’m looking at you, sweetie) or only one of them will manage to directly cause her death and defeat in the end Sansa will be the younger, more beautiful Queen because all that Cersei held dear and wanted she managed to achieve and she will be remembered the way Cersei wanted to be remembered, which is ultimately imo the true meaning of Maggy the Frog’s prophecy.