#listen im not saying kamala is great

[mostlikelyshutup]

the relief i have from joe biden stepping down and kamala (most likely) taking the ticket is the same relief i felt in november 2020 after a week of counting votes, like theres hope now

[pink-lemonadefairy]

no cause the hate chappell roan is getting is actually pissing me the fuck off. people got so upset at her for setting boundaries and going off on fans who disrespect her private time and make her uncomfortable and for what? just because being harassed is “normal” when you’re famous doesn’t mean it can’t bother her? have you ever for like one second thought that maybe things should change and famous people can start receiving the respect and privacy they deserve? people purposefully misconstrue her words and/or don’t listen to watch she’s actually saying. this whole situation with her not wanting to endorse kamala harris as if that immediately makes her a republican. are y’all dense on purpose or just…actually that stupid? where are the critical thinking skills. where are the listening skills. endorsing and voting are two different things, and she IS voting for harris, she just says it’s important to be critical of both parties (IT IS! EVERY POLITICIAN AT THAT MATTER) and the democrats have done shit that isn’t great either. cause they fucking haven’t (giving money to a “country” aka actively helping it commit genocide + also passing a bill that names any critique of said “country” antisemitic). nothing is black and white in politics, many things can be true at the same time and there needs to be room for nuance!!!!!!! chappell said nothing wrong but people still wanna be pissed at her.

if what she said makes you so angry i have no clue how you plan on ANY change whatsoever taking place in the states. decolonisation and dismantling systems that hurt minorities happens from the ground up TOO and one vote of yours in a presidential election isn’t gonna change everything overnight. it’s the START, the step in the right direction. the work doesn’t end there though and half of democrats (cough cough white people cough cough) are not comfortable enough with disruption to do that work. anyways.

& after she cancelled her shows somewhere people are attacking her personally. nothing wrong with being upset about not being able to see her, that’s completely valid, but people need to stop acting like she’s taking a break for no reason. she has severe depression + is constantly under scrutiny, of course she’s gonna need a breather.

and now people are comparing her to taylor swift and saying how taylor is soooo much better than her cause she’s endorsing kamala…she’s friends with a trump supporter you fucking morons and she hasn’t ONCE raised her extremely loud voice about palestine (a feminist issue, too btw!) and other issues. i’ll NEVER forget how she toured certain states and said NOTHING about the bans against drag queens and the violence against trans people. but oh right she’s supposed to be an ally. but i guess the yntcd music video was enough? and people wanna say she’s doing more than chappell roan like actually stop speaking or im gonna set the whole world on fire.

anyways whatever chappell roan they could never ever make me hate you

[themmatennant]

That octogenarian shouldve left AGES ago! now all other democratic candidates have been left in the dust. this is stupid, no one ever had a chance bcs it would always be biden v trump if biden was running. and biden pulls out right when it gets shown that his ineptitude is too great for this poition? he cares more about bad press than he ever did about his job, because if he did, he would have tried to convice congress not to overturn roevwade. people have been begging for him to leave the race! i get that hes too old to hear without those infomercial hearing aids (im not making fun of HoH ppl yall are awesome, just joseph robinette bidens age) but he could at least reach far enough in his barely conscious brain to remember put them so as to listen to the american ppl for once! AND AT THE RIGHT TIME. i get that the vote is way in november but if he had pulled out earlier, than there would be chances for real more valid candidates to run, not ones THE FUCKING GOVERNMENT JUST LIKE CHOSE INSTEAD OF LETTING US VOTE ON THE CANDIDATE AGAIN?? So Ill say one more thing, our new dem candidate Kamala better do us right. For the first time in like twelve years, she should give rights BACK. be part of a new system that doesnt take them away. Republicans are coming after gay marriage now, abortion is illegal or made so restricted and weirdly ruled that its practically not a thing in too many states.

I know you shouldnt put faith in politicians so I don't. But she can keep corrupt and cruel lawmakers from entering/staying in office causing the persecution towards children of the trans community, and help stop racially and religiously motivated hate crimes and extreme police brutality and corruption. I know it cant be all solved in four years, but she can fucking try to fix it. And we as america need to finally side on the Israel Palestine conflict, because kamala herself has spoken against Israel's murder of innocent civilians. she has shown that she sides with Palestine. OBVIOUSLY ITS NOT IN AN ANTISEMITIC WAY! Acknowledging cruelty, regardless of the race or historical inhumanity against the current offender, should know no backlash

[thoughtsbeewild]

Orange and Mcdonalds lol.

Oh man..so he said weeks ago in many interviews, rally's etc..,,he was going go McDonalds. And today was the day, I needed a laugh and good to see him in that light(better if he just keep doing this, it is great side people see and give them haters to hate, haters gon hate right, fuck em, do you and focus on the end goal). This man really wants BE TO BE OUR USA PRESIDENT, give that man the white house, let him be president elect already hehe..to them haters out there thinking its a photo op, no bitch its not. Get your facts straight and check your motherfucking ears or at least clean dem damn hateful ears.. He said he was going to do this to prove to Kamala lying harris and the motive was to prove this point, the truth..

he has balls, I REFUSED WHEN I WAS A TEENAGER TO WORK AT A FAST FOOD MCCDONALDS, ALOT OF LOCATIONS ARE FILTHY SO its GOOD he got A NICE MCDONALDS..THE GHETTO LOCATIONS HOOD LOCATIONS, THEY GOT SOME ATTITUDE ASS CUSTOMERS, RUDE its twice worst then NB whateva conference you entered...BUT YOU GOT THE GOOD ONES FOR THIS WHATEVER THAT WAS..

Good marketing for mcdonalds, but thier prices increased...SO TRY MAKING THAT AFFORDABLE TO THE PUBLIC, REMEMBER BACK IN 1995 MCDONALDS were low, but fast forward to 2 decades later, evolution of new tech has evolved...crazy!!!

IF YOU EVER WATCH SUPERSIZE ME ITS A GOOD DOCUMENTARY OF A GUY DOING A 30 DAY EXPERIMENT EATING MCDONALDS FOR BREAKFAST LUNCH AND DINNER, FUCK ALL UNHEALTHY NESS FOR 30 DAYS 24 HOURS 7 DAYS A WEEK..HOLY FUCK THIS GUY GAINED WEIGHT, HIS BLOOD PRESSURE AND HEALTH WENT TO EXTREME FROM HIS DOCTORS EXAMINATION. NEVER AGAIN AFTER THAT DOCUMENTARY, I ATE MCDONALDS UNTIL THIS FUCKING INFLATION AND PRICE OF FUCKING RENT(CORRUPTED LANDLORDS TAKING WHOLE 10%, THEN ADDING ADDTIONAL FEES FOR THEM TO COLLECT)..I ONLY CHOOSE EAT MCDONALDS EITHER ONCE EVERY FRIDAYS OR EVERY OTHER WEEK ONE CHEAT MEAL FOR LUNCH: CHICKEN NUGGETS AND FRENCH FRIES.

DAMN that crowd wow..so now i guess im understanding why orange makes a big fuss about the crowds. no other USA president from 1950 to now has ever gotten crowd like his in history...because rewind and think did the people ever get involved in presidential elections? No we were too blind to see from the celebrity puppets projecting thier control on us from the media and having orange man speak, we got out of the twlight zone and some stayed in puppet land like that woke movie "Dont worry darling"

We know mcdonalds was prove and shove it up Kamala face and show american people he not above anybody. Unlike Kamala and woke celebrity army treating Americans like dumbass stupid peasants HAVING CONTROL OVER OUR VOICE, OUR THOUGHTS, AND BASICALLY BOW DOWN TO ME...WHAT I LIKE AND RESPECT ABOUT ORANGE YOUR ENGAGEMENT TO THE PEOPLE ON ALL LEVELS, SHOWING AND TREATING EVERYONE WITH RESPECT, LISTENING TO THEM, NOT AT ALL CONTROLING, MANIPULATING FOR POWER, OR ABUSE LIKE THE EVIL DEMONCRATS...

Also like i said from Kamala acting scripted performance from so called attack debate, SCROLL DOWN TO THAT AIRPLANE INTERVIEW WHERE SHE SAYS SHE GOING WAIT HOW DEBATE WITH YOU PLAYS OUT BEFORE SHE STARTS ATTACKING/ATTENDING MORE INTERVIEWS FOR ELECTIONS. BECAUSE FEMALES NEED TO KNOW IF THAT MADE HER LOOK GOOD WORLDWIDE , THATS ALL EGO BOOST SHE NEEDED WAS FROM THAT PERFORMANCE...THATS A DEAD AWAY,COMMON SENSE APPLIED. SO THERES NOTHING TO REALLY ASSESS, DISCUSS ABOUT FAKE LYING KAMALA..NO BITCHING OR THREADS BECAUSE I already knew that wasnt her and NOT GOING WASTE MY TIME ENERGY ANALYZING THE DUMB INTERVIEWS, BREAKING NEWS KAMALA DID YOU SEE,...ROLLS EYES .....ITS ALL FAKE ACTING, HER REAL TALK OF WHAT SHE DOING NOW, SHE SHOULD HAVE PRESENTED AT DEBATE(THE REAL HER BUT aBC MADE A PRE-AGREEMENT , IT WAS TARGET YOU TO MAKE YOU LOOK BAD, MAKE HER LOOK GOOD TO MOVE FORWARD WITH INTERVIEWS LIKE SHE SAID ON AIRPLANE INTERVIEW, THEFORE SHE GOT QUESTIONS BEFORE HAND TO PREPARE SO NICELY.. ..ORANGE JUST NEEDS TO FOCUS ON END GOAL..

[moonlit-imagines]

Headcanons for being a younger Avenger and mentoring Kamala

Kamala Khan x reader

warnings: avengers game spoilers, guns

a/n: so excited about this one; i made y/n just a bit older (and gn!) so that they’re in their mid-early teens during a-day! hope thats okie doke! reader has electrokinesis. this accidentally got really detailed

prompt: anonymous: “Hey there! Would you mind writing HCs for the Avengers Game about female reader being a young Avenger (around 17) and mentoring Kamala Khan?”

you were just a kid yourself when you joined the avengers

and you were an inspiration to kids around the world

“does SHIELD think nothing of child labor laws?” -bruce

the avengers became your family

and seeing what you could do...they knew you could handle yourself

and then a-day happened

the day started off so perfect

and the kids went ballistic over seeing you

“y/h/n! look, it’s y/h/n!”

“can i get a picture?”

“hi, guys! of course you can!”

but there was one kid who stuck out among the rest

kamala khan

“you’re the one who wrote about the sewers, right? i freaking loved it! may i just say your art is amazing?”

“r-really?”

“oh, yeah! and the part where you had thor spin mjölnir to push water towards the sewer lizards so i could shock them? genius!”

she could not wait to tell abu about what you had just said

you obviously took a selfie with her and handed her a little pin with your own “icon” on it

but your world got turned upside down that day

the battle was one you’d never forget

and the fighting with your own teammates afterwards would haunt you for years to come

“what do you know, y/n?! you’re just a kid!” -tony

“oh yeah? im one of the only functioning members of this team!”

“everybody calm down. y/n makes a good point, but—” -nat

“thank you”

“...but there’s some stuff you should leave up to us. you really shouldn’t have to take on so much responsibility” -nat

“she’s right, y/n. this was our fault” -bruce

“are you kidding me?! i’m just as guilty as the rest of you, i’m an equal member of this team! for years we’ve dealt with this together, taken the blame together! what’s changed?”

“y/n...you saw what we did out there. that changed everything...” -bruce

you technically were an inhuman, just not terrigen-based

didnt matter to AIM, they took dr. pym for god’s sake

so you had to run, you were on your own for a while

a long while

you laid low for five years, most boring five years of your life

at least you still had your life, though. it just wasn’t what it used to be

but you got a message one day

“‘tiny dancer,’ huh? my moneys on either nat or tony. nah, tony would have chosen ‘rocket man.’”

you couldn’t be sure, maybe it was just a random shield agent...maybe hank pym? god, this was crazy

the message brought you to, uh, cap’s memorial statue

and there was a young girl arguing with a couple of boys...an inhuman!

you hopped in and saved her, she seemed scared

“hey, kid, you alright?”

“y/h/n? is it really you?”

she seemed vaguely familiar

“are you tiny dancer?”

“no, i thought you might be? they sent you here, too?”

there wasn’t much time to chat, AIM was onto you

you two unfortunately got split up for a minute, but you were practically raised by the notorious clint barton and natasha romanoff, and various other spies

yes, you planted a tracker on her

and met her at the bus stop!

“you found me?”

“that i did, kamala. see, i do remember you”

“that is so cool! i mean—not almost getting killed, or the guy with the big head...”

“what guy? you need to tell me everything”

the whole busride was a bit overwhelming. kamala explained the resistance clues, her powers, her undying admiration for the avengers, you name it

but it made you feel good to know that there were people out there that didn’t hate you

“so what was it like? being the teenage avenger?”

“uh, it was...it was really cool. i felt like i was one-of-a-kind. but sometimes people didn’t take me seriously, it was kind of aggravating”

“yeah, no one takes me seriously either...”

“you know, depending on how this all goes, i might be able to give you a few pointers”

“really?! that’d be great!”

once you got to utah...you saw the chimera

it brought back some bad memories, kamala could tell

“you okay?”

“me? yeah, im good. just thinking...okay, well, do you have a plan on how to get yourself across all of this?”

“actually, i do!”

it was kind of creepy in there, but when you laid your eyes on caps shield, you kind of broke

“do you hear something, what it that?”

“...hulk. kamala, you need to get out of here, i’ll catch up to you, i swear”

she didn’t leave in time, so she got to see the greener side of bruce. you chased him back and tried to get bruce back

meanwhile, kamala found AIM troops...oops

bruce cooled off and man was he doing rough

“y/n, is that really you?”

“yeah, its me. surprise. how long have you been the big guy?”

“too long...a few years”

“jesus, im sorry. i’ll be right back, though. some kid brought me here, i gotta go get her. you kinda scared her off”

she was passed out when you got to her

but bruce is a doctor, he’d figure it out

“i could give her a little shock to wake her up, you know?”

“oh, i know. just let her rest for a minute. she needs it”

“right...well im gonna take a look around, maybe go see what i left behind. i could power the place up, but we’re missing some parts to actually get this thing running. best i can do is lights and doors”

you turned the little things on and turns out did leave a decent amount of stuff in here

your first pair of pistols that nat gave you, the gigantic stein that thor gifted you for your 13th birthday, gadgets tony needed an “extra boost” for *bzzt*, a note from cap that just said “good luck, y/n, you’re going to do great!” you cant even remember what it was he was referring to. you just missed him

kamala walked in while you were shuffling around and cleaning the place up

“hey, dr. banner wanted me to come get you. is this your room?”

“that it is, and it’s a huge mess. this is literally all my belongings ever”

bruce had his plan and you just went along, helping kamala out as you go

“baby steps, kam, don’t want you to pass out. but don’t worry, happens to the best of us” -you

“really? you pass out too?” -kamala

“oh yeah, for sure. tell her bruce, remember that time we had thor overcharge me to literally make me an EMP? and tony was busy listening to music so he wouldn’t get out of the blast radius and his armor shut down? so he was out of commission and i had just collapsed from it all? good times”

“y/n, we thought you died” -bruce

this hc is so long omg — anyways you guys ended up finding tony and it was sort of entertaining but he kinda punched bruce and then hugged you

“you got so big”

“shut up, tony”

you kinda harbored some bad feelings since none of the avengers did anything to help you once they started rounding up inhumans (but you still missed them)

getting attacked again

“okay, kamala, remember what i said about baby steps. dont overdo it. i trust you with this!”

“thank you, y/n! uh—oh my god!”

aaaanyways you went to the ant hill to see hank and pick up some supplies, boy was it great to see some familiar faces, then back the the chimera you went to fix it all up

“can you hold that right there for me, kamala? thanks. i think that just about does it. now i have a surprise for you...your own room!”

you helped kamala get it nice and tidy while talking about each other’s lives, she really did remind you of yourself when you became an avenger. excited, scared, underestimated, all of that. and she begged you to share some mission stories, so you obviously did

“you know, if you stick around for a while, you’re gonna have some cool stories, too. maybe even a kickass costume.”

“oh! a costume, ive got that sorta covered. check it out. a burkini, muslim women wear it for swimming and stuff. my mom got it for me”

“love it. soon we’ll find you a fitting name and update the suit, but seriously, this was the perfect way to go. you look great”

“you think so? i don’t know if i feel that cool. maybe i should try something else?”

“if that’s how you feel, you don’t have to stick to it. you can experiment all you want! but i really think you did awesome on this. come on, pose with me! and hey, i like your pins.”

at this point, you’d do anything for kamala, she reminded you so much of yourself. you would have killed for a mentor your age back in the day.

natasha was in fact tiny dancer...called it

“oh, god, y/n. you’re all grown up...im sorry we left you alone. but if it makes you feel better, i always kept an eye on you”

“well, i kind of took on a protégé...she’s like your grand-protégé. kam, c’mere”

after thor finally came back, everyone started fighting again and ditched, it felt so familiar. but you couldn’t leave kamala behind, you swore to yourself that you couldn’t do that.

she was so good for this team

MODOK was defeated (by kamala herself) but there was so much left to do, tons of threats to extinguish, training to accomplish

“y/n, tony won’t turn his dad rock off! he overrode the speakers in my room”

“oh, it’s on. get chastity’s fabric dye and bleach pens. we’re gonna start some trouble”

she gave you a high five one time and nearly broke your arm

sending each other tiny hand memes

“hey, ms. m, how’re your parents? doing okay without their favorite super-daughter?”

“my abu doesn’t stop texting me actually, says my family is super proud of me. it’s a nice change of pace”

you take her on covert missions for field training, it was Educational(tm)

*elevator music playing* “so...what do you want for dinner? i was thinking we could ask thor to barbecue”

sleepovers in her room that just turn into her showing you her superhero merch, listening to music, prank lists, sneaking off to the HARM room for hand-to-hand combat training and power experiments, thinking up new costume designs

“tip: you always need backup suits, you never know what you’re gonna run into out there. one time tony pushed me into a tower of paint cans and they spilled all over me. steve yelled at him for two hours afterwards. worst mission ever, except steve said ‘motherfucker’ and i have never recovered from the emotions of that day”

“wow, i wish i could have been there for that”

“don’t worry, kami, you’ll see some crazy ‘team bonding’ along the way”

she geeks out about captain marvel sometimes

“hey, i’ve got a book carol gave to me about ‘teens taking responsibility.’ you wanna read it?”

“is it any good?”

“i don’t know, i only read the first two pages”

you ended up having a true heart-to-heart with her after one mission when she made a mistake that nearly cost you guys the mission. you told her that not every mission is going to go perfect, each avenger had slipped up in the field, and she had just started, shes not going to be perfect

“i am literally always here if you need anything. i know what it feels like to be a teenager among legends, but trust me, you’ve made it this far and you’ve proven how much of a badass you are. i know you can take anything that gets thrown at you”

kamala said she makes vegan nachos and yeah she makes vegan nachos

you guys have to hide from the rest of the team when she makes them bc they eat ALL OF THEM

gaff (the SHEILD vendor) has you test his gear, you recommend gear to kamala

you were so excited to guide kamala on her journey of heroism

taglist: @ravenmoore14 // @purpleskiesstorm //

[lou-makes-me-strong]

Hey! When you get this, please respond with five things that make you happy! Then, send to your last ten people in your notifs. You never know who might benefit from spreading positivity :)

Thanks! Ok, 5 things that make me happy! Uhh I feel awkward sending things to people that I don’t talk to, so if you see this and want to do it, then do it! I can even send you an ask with the prompt if you wanna answer it like that! Just me know, :)

1) Getting out of my house is great! I love aquarium! Also zoos! They’re fantastic! I love animals! (I constantly question why I’m doing theater instead of working with animals for a living)I’m about to go to an aquarium with one of my friends and I’m super hyped! We’re gonna see so many fish and pet so many stingrays! It’s gonna be lit!

2) painting! Painting is something that usually makes me really happy. Sometimes it can be stressful when I have to paint and have no motivation or if I want to paint but don’t know what, but I still love it. I’m a scenic artist for theater, so it’s what I do for a living(so I guess it’s good that I love it). A few summers ago we did Mamma Mia and I painted a 40 foot by 20 foot backdrop for it almost entirely by myself. That’s was a challenge but it turned out pretty awesome! And I’ve just got to do some other really fun things that I wouldn’t get to do normally thanks to working in scenery. I also do just do like normal painter things too. I’m working on a series for myself that’s panels from Matt Fractions Hawkeye comics.

3) aside from scenic art stuff, just art in general. Im a studio art minor at school with a focus in 3D art. I really a joy ceramics and have been getting more into sculpture stuff! Im pretty good at hand sculpting, but I wish I was better at throwing on a wheel. I’m taking an upper level ceramics class next semester so hopefully I’ll get to practice that. But working with clay is one of my favorite things!

4) and I feel like I should mention nerd stuff. I love nerd stuff! I love marvel comics and some of the MCU stuff. Loki is one of my favorite characters in the comics and MCU(then Agent of Asgard Loki comics are like my favorite thing). And I feel like I can’t say I like loki without mentioning him being canonically bi in the MCU. He’s already bi in the comics which is amazing. But I never thought they’d actually put lgbt rep in the MCU(im not counting endgame that was the bare minimum and it meant nothing). I was so happy about that I cried(I am also bi). They just mentioned it so casually, i just was not ready for it and i was just crying in a corner at 4am about it. I also love the young avengers comics(Wiccan, hulking, and speed are great), the hawkeye comics(Kate and Clint are amazing), iron man(I love the movies, but haven’t read as many of his comics), The New Mutants comics(Sunspot and Cannonball are my favorites), Ms. Marvel(Kamala is incredible and everybody should read her comics)!They’re just good and make me so happy. I also have a marvel side blog @lowkeymarveladdict if anybody wants to follow me there.

5) more nerd stuff! D&D is cool. I’m in my first game with some friends rn and it’s been really fun! We’re playing Tomb of Annihilation. We haven’t played in a while and we aren’t very far in the campaign bc people are difficult, but I can’t wait to play more. My character is a water genasi Druid and they have a hellhoud puppy and I love them. I also love to watch/listen to actual play shows. Dimension 20 and NADDPOD are so so good and everybody should go watch/listen to those! I’m also about to DM my first campaign. It a big home brew thing and I’m excited but also kinda terrified bc talking is difficult and I’m full of anxiety all of the time. But I have a lot of cool ideas and I can’t wait for my friends to try and fight me in a Denny’s parking lot

[in-a-cave-with]

can you make a list of every mavel comic you've ever read (good and bad) i just finished iron man (1998) and i thoroughly loved it with all its best and weird bits

GOOD™

iron man stuff:

tales of suspense (1963) – a classic. 100/10. would read several times

iron man vol 1 (1968) – i’m on, like, issue 20 out of 300 something but it’s also very very good! the drama..the action……..wig

iron man vol 3 (1998) – obv i know youve read this one anon but for anyone out there starting comics this one’s SUPER good, and also Love Is Stored In The Tonyru

iron man vol 4 (2005) – listen this comic. so great, so iconic. maya hansen! epic fights! director stark! good art except for, like, the 6 issues of execute program but execute program is such a good story arc that you wont even notice! 

iron man noir (2010) – INDIANA JONES AU TONY STARK, LITERALLY THE BEST CONCEPT MARVEL’S COME UP WITH. PEAK COMICS IRONFAM

iron man legacy (2010) – i enjoyed this one a lot! i’m kind of confused as to, like, what’s going on but it’s fun

iron man season one (2013) – ok so this is, like, a modern remake of tony’s origin story and it’s..kind of average imo but thats ok! bc you can just look at the very very pretty pictures

iron man fatal frontier (2013) – tony becomes governor of the moon and fights doom! also he takes down an ai with weaponized fanfiction somewhere in there. read this one with a .cbr reader

invincible iron man vol 2 (2015) – gonna maybe fuck around and rec bendis’ entire iron man run bc . the art is gorgeous and the story isn’t the strongest but tony’s characterization is v good 

international iron man (2016) – ok i dont remember what happens in this one but alex maleev’s art is literally god 

invincible iron man vol 3 (2016) – RIRI WILLIAMS!!!! AND ALSO AI TONY STARK (MY SON MY BOY WHOM I LOVE)!!!!

other stuff:

new avengers vol 1 (2005) – as i have said before. new avengers GOT the sauce. stevetony and caroljess on one team was too powerful so marvel had to break em up with civil war . also stop reading this comic when you get to civil war

civil war: casualties of war (2007) and civil war: the confession (2007) – these are both oneshot comics and also the Only Civil War Content You Need To Subject Yourself To

spider-man noir (2010) – a break from the avengers stuff to tell you that this comic is very brutal and also very good

secret invasion (2010) – ok avengers emh did it better™ but this is still very neat! also it’s pretty trippy so its got that going for it too

siege (2010) – i dont understand what’s going on but the art is very good. also the avengers get to beat up norman osborn’s bitch ass

avengers prime (2011) – apparently this is the “stevetony bible” and …honestly there isn’t anything i can say in objection to that

avengers vol 4 (2010) – this comic is SUPER fun. after the fear itself tie ins the art and story get pretty eugh though so be careful

fear itself (2012) – BEST BEST BEST!!! my favorite crossover event in comics, with cool art and a badass storyline

captain marvel vol 4 (2012) – can we get a yeehaw for CAROL DANVERS . hell yeah. this is her first run with the name captain marvel and it’s Very Good

avengers: the enemy within (2014) – captain marvel vol 4 ends on a cliffhanger and the storyline’s capped off here

avengers vol 5 (2013) – ok so *clown noises* i haven’t exactly finished it but…this is the One Was Life The Other Was Death comic and it’s super good from what ive read so far

hawkeye (2013) – matt fraction’s run! everyone and their dog wants you to read it and you absolutely should if you have not. not too sure abt the volume numbering but heres a link to download in TPBs, it’s volumes 1-4

captain marvel vol 5 (2014) – this is the volume featuring chewie (!!) and carol in outer space with the guardians of the galaxy (!!!). super fun in general, would read again

ms marvel (2014) – again i am VERY confused as to what the official issue/volume numbering is, but here’s a list of TPBs that collect pretty much every kamala khan comic pre 2019 (im gonna rec all of them bc kamala is a treasure)

doctor strange vol 3 (2015) – literally everything i want from a comic tbh, also chris bachalo’s art is amazing

marvel 1872 (2015) – no one actually calls this Stevetony Bible 2 but lbr it’s basically Stevetony Bible 2

all-new all-different avengers (2015) – BEST AVENGERS TEAM EVER. EVER. PLEASE BENDIS WHY DID YOU BREAK THIS TEAM UP IM SAD

the unbelievable gwenpool (2016) – oh god oh fuck it’s miss GWEN POOLE . this comic is super funny and also surprisingly heartfelt, plus the art is . mmm.

champions (2016) – the gen z superhero team, i love all of them so much. i can almost forgive marvel for ending anad avengers

hunt for wolverine: adamantium agenda (2018) – so this is, after 11 goddamn years, closure for the first civil war regarding tony and the new avengers that sided with steve. amazing.

the life of captain marvel (2018) – the carol origin retcon is…eh. but it’s still very good! think of it as carol’s international iron man

avengers: back to basics (2018) – kamala goes back in time and accidentally reveals tony’s secret identity and it’s the funniest fucking thing

captain marvel (2019) – the first issue is everyone bullying tony which sucks but DONT LET THAT GET YOU DOWN bc it’s, like, actually good and also tony appears more in later issues without getting bullied

war of realms (2019) – i guess it’s a marvel rule that all crossover comics having to do with asgard are Top Notch? anyway

loki (2019) – AMAZING loki shenanigans and also the REAL reason you needed to read war of realms tbh

ironheart (2019) – gosh i love riri williams so much she’s so GREAT and you should DEFINITELY READ THIS

QUESTIONABLE™:

invincible iron man vol 1 (2008) – matt fraction’s iron man run…it’s ..ok story wise? however the characterization is a lil off at times and the art is HORRIBLE

iron man vol 5 (2013) – ok so this comic is super weird ? because it’s nice that tony spends time out in space but also it confirms that he’s a furry apparently. pretty much the only truly average iron man comic

avengers vol 8 (2018) – okay so i really like the art and the story’s okay but there’s a bit where tony flirts w carol and it’s the most ooc thing ive ever seen and that’s enough to land it in the questionable category

tony stark: iron man (2018) – i debated over whether to put this here or in the Bad™ category BUT valerio schiti’s art is too beautiful and the rhodeytony content fuels me. also issues 12 and 13 (war of realms) written by gail simone are pretty good. unfortunately dan slott wrote the rest and it AINT IT CHIEF

gwenpool strikes back (2019) – it starts off strong in the first issue but goes downhill from there and tbh it’s not really respectful of the previous gwenpool run

magnificent ms marvel (2019) – ok listen i love kamala a lot but if theres gonna be a romance plot between her and bruno it’s the electric chair

BAD. AVOID AT ALL COSTS™

iron man vol 2 (1996) – just. don’t touch this. it’s a hot mess

civil war (2006) – i hate this. so much. it’s unreal. all you need to know is that steve was real close to killing tony in the end but surrendered when he saw that he no longer had the moral high ground. and also steve got assassinated right before he was going to be put on trial

mighty avengers (2007) – this comic had the potential to be SO good. unfortunately the artists for the actual avengers issues don’t respect women at all

superior iron man (2015) – they made tony evil and i could not be more angry with it. who even fucking wants to read this theres not even any emotional payoff for any of this

civil war ii (2016) – i would hit this stupid comic in the knees if i could. there is not a single c*vil w*r with rights. all you need to know is that carol put tony into a coma and it’s super ooc

iron man 2020 (2020) – listen i know this comic hasn’t come out yet but it has all the ingredients to be EVEN WORSE than superior iron man which is saying a lot.

this took way too much effort

[tzimiscelord]

Trump spent years attacking his opponents

Plain false, and its the first phrase. Not looking good.

including denouncing literally every news source that criticized him as “fake news”

The media has been extremely biased against trump repeatedly, When someone lies about you to make it look bad, i find nothing wrong in outing them like the liars they are. Just like its the news right to criticise trump, its also trump right to criticise them.

He spent most of 2020 accusing Democrats of voter fraud and of “stealing the election” fespite not having any evidence to back up his accusations.

Despite having plenty, you should say, from videos of people pulling ballots from behind the table after the observers were gone, to dead people voting, if you do not want to look at it, thats fine, but dont say it doesnt exist. Still this is a smoke screen, since its not the point of the discussion. I prefer to focus on the matter at hand than deviating from the point.

claimed that Biden’s victory meant the destruction of fair elections and the destruction of the USA, and repeatedly incted his followers to “fight like hell” to prevent this.

Peacefully, patriotically and without violence, yeah, but to fight for it.

dont go all “good people on both sides” to me and omit the half of the phrase you dont want to acknowledge. He “incited” his followers to fight like hell and makes their voices be heard in a peaceful way. How the hell is that inciting a riot/assault?

And on top of that, while the riot was happening, he refused to reel in the coupers until after the riot was pretty much over.

So?. If they didnt listen to him the first time whebn he called them to PEACEFULLY protest, what makes you think they will listen afterwards?

Also, still better than a HUGE amount of democrats like kamala harris and joe biden, for naming two, who never deescalated their violent words, regardless of the pass of the time.

If this doesn’t count as “inciting an insurrection”,

No, calling people to peacefully make their voices be heard doesnt count as inciting an insurrection, no matter how many drugs you are on.

They manipulated footage to make Trump look like he said X” is not a valid argument if Trump actually said X

But it is a valid argument if trump never actually said X. You are welcome.

Democrats also did Y, the proof is this compilation of clips where Democrats did much less than Y” is not a valid argument either.

So you didnt watched the videos at all and you are talking without having any idea what you are talking about huh? thats great buddy, it really adds up to your already batttered credibility. Really.

You get only one more shot

With the massive lead i have, i dont need it, but since i enjoy it, i will indulge you.

Then I’ll dismiss your accusations against Democrats

Im not even accusing the democrats to begin with!

I said there was no impeacheable offense. On either side. Nobody opened called for violence. Even biden, who said he would love to beat trump, didnt outright called for people to actually beat him.

There is no accusation or offense from anybody as far as im concerned.

But that if we count words that could remotely be interpreted as a call for agression, (which im strongly against) then dozens of politicians on either side should be impeached. Biden and Trump among them.

Meaning that I won’t accept any similar accusation from you for the next six months, even if you bring up new evidence.

Seeing how you ignore the evidence at all without watching it, yet speak like you watched it, its not that much of a difference, isnt it?

GOD i hate it here

[tshirttrend]

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[sineala]

Sine, Sine! I'm sorry to bother you, but do you have any good tips for writing 616 Tony! I just love your characterization so much :)

Oh, boy, an opportunity to talk about my fave! I was actually sitting here thinking, gosh, I hope someone asks me to write meta about my favorite characters sometime soon! And then you did, so thank you, anon! (And thank you, I’m glad you like my characterization.)

Uh. This got long.

I don’t know if what you want are tips on writing 616 Tony as distinct from other Tonys, or 616 Tony as distinct from other people in his universe, but I will try to hit both.

If you haven’t read Elspethdixon’s 616 Steve/Tony ship manifesto, you really should, because it contains the most important tip for writing 616 Tony, namely: Tony hates himself. A lot. Self-loathing is the background radiation of Tony Stark’s life.

The second most important thing, which you will also learn from that ship manifesto, and which you already knew, is that Tony Stark has a suit of Iron Man armor. Now, in MCU, we know that the way this goes is that Tony spends most of his life fucking around and being rich and wasted and making weapons until he gets captured in Afghanistan, takes a bunch of shrapnel to the chest, and decides to devote himself to superheroing. He has a secret identity that lasts… until the end of Iron Man 1. He is Iron Man, and it’s made him reevaluate his life. Also, he probably doesn’t hate himself. As much. I will leave that discussion to people who are more into MCU than I am.

616 Tony, on the other hand, becomes Iron Man when he’s really, really young. Like, early twenties. He doesn’t spend decades in dissolution. Vietnam is his impetus to become a superhero, yes, but it’s really not the same thing at all. By the time we get to modern canon this means he’s spent basically his entire adult life being a responsible superhero, and now he’s busy mentoring the next generation of superheroes – Kamala, Sam, and Miles while he was alive, and Riri now that he’s dead. (”Dead.” Comatose. Whatever.)

But the way that Tony’s self-loathing intersects with Iron Man is that he does the secret identity thing. No one knows. No one knows for years. Even after Steve finds out in the early 80s, most of the team doesn’t know for at least a decade after that. The public doesn’t find out until the early 2000s. (Twice. It’s complicated.) So even if you look at him now and see a guy with a public identity, you should realize that this is a very recent development in his life.

A lot of superheroes have tension between their caped and non-caped identities. Steve, for example, has a bunch of angst about trying to be Steve Rogers, a regular guy, versus Captain America, and how to live up to that, and how much of a regular life he should try to have. This is not Tony’s problem, as Tony’s regular life is… pretty out of the ordinary, as these things go. No, Tony uses his identity as Iron Man to fuel his self-loathing.

Iron Man is a hero. Iron Man saves people. Everything that is good about Tony, Tony puts in a box and calls it Iron Man. He compartmentalizes. (I could probably write a whole other post about how Tony’s a control freak.) Iron Man’s fine, and Tony develops a drinking problem. (Demon In A Bottle actually happened while Tony had a secret identity, and included him deciding that he was sick of being Tony Stark and was just going to be Iron Man.) While with someone else it might not be a bad thing to say that Iron Man is all the best parts of him… that doesn’t leave a lot to be Tony. And he doesn’t really like the parts that are left.

However, I think Tony Stark is still a really good guy. I mean, early canon is early canon, sure, but even as a boss he’s always depicted as, basically, the most benevolent face of capitalism you could possibly imagine. Like, the fantasy job that was available in the fifties and sixties where a dude could support a family of four and buy a nice house in the suburbs and then retire with a generous pension? A SI job is clearly that job. He knows his employees’ names, all of them, and he just seems deeply concerned about them, all the time. And, hey, how about that time he let the Avengers move into his house and never leave, huh? :)

Also he’s… not really a playboy, as I would use the term. During the early years, when he was dependent on the chestplate, he certainly used it as a cover, and we see him deliberately keeping himself from getting close to people because he was just going to die and make them sad (no really), as well as presumably to preserve his identity. We see him wishing that he could get closer to people because he has so much love to give! In the romantic relationships we’ve seen him in, he’s generally very devoted, occasionally more than the other person is, occasionally to the point of creepiness. (Okay, that’s not really one of his best traits.) He falls hard and fast. He just falls in love a lot. He sincerely does. He’s a romantic, even if his persona says otherwise. So, yeah, he has a public persona. Tony Stark is a public persona. It’s pretty evident that that’s not really him, either.

He’s not as quippy as MCU Tony, or as all-around warm-and-fuzzy nice as AA or MA:A Tony, or as utterly flamboyantly campy as Ults Tony (although, man, if you want to talk about drinking problems, go see Ults Tony). If you’re writing his internal voice, I tend to go with a fair amount of obscenities (more than Steve, anyway), and bring your science metaphors to the party if you got ‘em.

But, yeah, the self-loathing. I like to joke that you can tell it’s a good Iron Man comic if Tony is naked and crying, possibly in the rain, because he thinks none of his friends love him. (By this criterion, Iron Age and Execute Program are very good.) Possibly contingent upon the self-loathing, he never passes up an opportunity for self-sacrifice. Sure, any superhero worth his or her salt will happily die to save others – it’s part of the character type – but they all have to get in line behind Tony, who will be there killing himself first. Possibly several times. As many times as it takes. You know that moment in Red Zone where Tony rips off his helmet, exposing himself to deadly flesh-eating bacteria, to give Steve CPR and save Steve’s life, because Captain America is more important than him? That’s Tony Stark. I will also once again point to Execute Program, where Tony literally stops his heart to save Steve. He really likes killing himself for Steve.

I guess other than the self-loathing the main trait I think of as characteristic of 616 Tony is the sense of responsibility, and yeah, I do mean that in the Spider-Man “with great power” sense. He’s a founding Avenger. He knows what he’s doing. If you’re writing an MCU or an Ults story, say, there are a lot of things you could put the Avengers or the Ultimates up against that they’ve never seen before, and they might freak out. Just a little. (When the Ultimates first fight the Chitauri, Tony nearly gives up. He’s just a regular guy. He’s having a hard time dealing with this stuff.) But the thing about 616 is that it’s going to take a lot to make the Avengers, and by extension 616 Tony, freak out about anything. Their lives are weird. So, yeah, he’s seen it all, he’s vastly experienced, he’s been a professional superhero for ten or twelve years now – which, unlike in MCU, means it’s more or less his whole adult life – and he’s going to step up and take charge and do whatever needs to be done.

As an illustration of both his sense of responsibility and the degree to which he regards Tony and Iron Man as two different people, I want to point you to Iron Man v3, the Secretary of Defense arc. Following Red Zone, in which it was revealed that the Red Skull was the previous Secretary of Defense (616 governments are terrifying, okay?), Tony has been nominated to replace him. And we see his Senate hearing, and one of the senators has reservations about Tony’s suitability, based on his public persona. (This arc happens shortly after the first time the public learns Tony is Iron Man.) And this is Tony’s response:

Senator: We can’t let you loose in the Pentagon. You’ll turn it into a cult of personality and you’ll never listen to this body again! You’re too smart for school, Mr. Stark. You make up your own rules. For legal behavior. For being honest with people. I won’t even get into your personal life…

Tony: Is there a question in there, Senator?

Senator: It’s all a question! Why should anyone think that Tony Stark would put this nation’s safety before his own personal aggrandizement?

Tony: Because I’ve been doing that for years! Because I’m Iron Man – and I never ONCE took the credit!

Senator: What exactly do you mean, Mr. Stark?

Tony: Just what I said, Senator. “I’m Iron Man – and I never took the credit.”

Tony: Did I try to associate his positive image with my companies? Yes, I did. But that’s all. I never, ever asked for a direct reward for anything I ever did as Iron Man.

Tony: And for every life I told you I saved as Iron Man, there are tens – hundreds – that I’ve kept to myself. To save lives, I have traveled far. Farther than any of you will ever go. I have traveled to dark places. All alone, away from anyone who could see, hear, or help. I have staved off threats that you will never, ever hear about. The simple knowledge of them would wreak more fear and ruin on the world than I could ever hope to gain from them.

Tony: Yes, Tony Stark is Iron Man. But Iron Man is not about Tony Stark. Iron Man is about everyone else… and if Tony Stark is Defense Secretary, it’ll work the same way. That’s all I have to say. Thank you.

(This is IM v3 #76 & #78, BTW. We get half the speech during the hearing, and then half in boxes later while we see Iron Man risking his life to save people. Tony gets the SecDef job.)

So I think that speech basically sums up 616 Tony. He’s Iron Man, and he never took the credit. And that’s who 616 Tony Stark is, to me. It’s not just that he’s about accountability, as the MCU arc goes; it’s true that he’s also about accountability, but he’s about accountability not as something he’s finally learned but as a part of the core of his character from the very beginning, as a part of being responsible and doing the right thing and saving people. And not needing to take the credit.

I hope that helps answer your question!

[theliberaltony]

via FiveThirtyEight

Welcome to FiveThirtyEight’s weekly politics chat. The transcript below has been lightly edited.

sarahf (Sarah Frostenson, politics editor): For the last several months, former President Barack Obama has been busy giving advice to 2020 Democratic contenders. He hasn’t endorsed anyone (and may never do so), but who do we think is best positioned to be the next “Obama candidate”? And, more importantly, do we think what worked for Obama in 2008 would work for a 2020 candidate?

julia_azari (Julia Azari, political science professor at Marquette University and FiveThirtyEight contributor): Obama ran in 2008 as (kind of) an outsider but not a populist. But the current crop of candidates isn’t very well-positioned to make outsider claims, as the FiveThirtyEight Politics podcast crew pointed out. Instead, they’re better poised to talk about economic populism.

So that’s a big difference that immediately jumped out to me.

sarahf: Elizabeth Warren and Bernie Sanders are both pushing populist economic policies this cycle. But I’d argue that neither is really in the mold of Obama.

It’s also not clear to me, given that the economy is pretty good right now, how effective a rallying cry it’ll be for 2020. I think there’s an opening for someone like Cory Booker, who’s running on a message of love (which is reminiscent of Obama’s message of hope and change in 2008).

perry (Perry Bacon Jr., senior writer): I tend to think Beto O’Rourke (if he decides to run) and Booker will end up running Obama-like campaigns, appealing to voters with personas as much as their policy agendas. I would put Kamala Harris in this group as well.

Granted, Booker is an insider, not an outsider, but I don’t know how much of an outsider Obama really was — he was a sitting senator in 2008. I do think Booker and Obama share broad themes of trying to unite the country.

O’Rourke also seems to have some of that Obama-like charisma — people are begging him to run for president, but I suspect they don’t know a lot about his record.

natesilver (Nate Silver, editor in chief): Not to interrupt but are we … underestimating how much Obama was about personality rather than policy in 2008? Not that he isn’t a substantive guy. But I’m old enough to remember the 2008 primaries. And there were not a hell of a lot of rigorous debates over policy.

julia_azari: That’s fair, Nate. But it’s complicated. Obama’s bid, especially against Hillary Clinton, was about personality. Not a ton of policy difference there.

But his presidency was a lot of reacting to big issues and problems — the economy, of course, but also the Arab Spring. And police violence against unarmed African-Americans became a major national issue.

So when we ask about Obama’s legacy, are we asking about his 2008 run or his presidency?

sarahf: That’s a good point, Julia. If we look at Obama’s presidency, I’d argue that parts of the Democratic Party don’t want someone who replicates Obama’s more consensus-based approach. Many, especially on the Left, wish he’d gone farther on issues, which is why we’re debating “Medicare-for-all” right now and not, say, how to save the Affordable Care Act.

perry: I think it’s clear that Sanders and Warren are not running in the Obama mold.

They can’t say that — because Obama is so popular among Democrats, and Sanders did not do well in 2016 with black voters, who both love Obama and are an important constituency in the party. But privately, the Sanders supporters I talk to think Obama was a fine but underwhelming president.

natesilver: Publicly, there are a VERY few vocal Bernie supporters who think Obama was a bad president. And it’s probably a minority of Sanders supporters who think that, but it’s still out there.

julia_azari: So I was thinking about this when I read Nate’s piece about the “five corners” of the Democratic primary. The piece is right that Obama won with black voters, Latino voters and young voters — and that the Left didn’t really have a candidate in 2008. But I am also not sure the Left was even a thing in 2008.

It really took Warren, Sanders and the Occupy movement, along with slow economic recovery and some activism around issues of racial marginalization (like Black Lives Matter), to shape the Left as we know it.

perry: Also, Dan Pfeiffer, a former Obama adviser, has been encouraging Beto O’Rourke to get into the race. David Axelrod, another former Obama advisers, has been praising Pete Buttigieg, who has also gotten praise from Obama himself. (How many mayors are getting shout-outs from Obama?) So that gives you some sense of how people who were deeply involved in Obama’s 2008 campaign see the 2020 race.

natesilver: Yeah, the Obama people themselves are quite pro-Beto. Especially the Obama people who didn’t move on to work for the Hillary Clinton campaign in some capacity.

perry: Obama got some credit from liberal activists in 2008 for being opposed to the Iraq War, but I don’t think the Left was as organized then.

And it didn’t have obvious champions who were strong candidates. Now, the Left has Warren, Sanders and other candidates who are taking fairly liberal positions (like Harris).

julia_azari: I’d call Beto and Buttigieg the closest we have to “outsiders” in the race. Well, them and Tulsi Gabbard.

natesilver: Gabbard and Obama both have the Hawaii thing going on. Is she the new Obama?

perry: I agree with the idea that Beto is something of an outsider. He was in Congress, but I feel like he barely registered there. I literally don’t think I have ever covered him doing anything important on Capitol Hill.

sarahf: It’s interesting that no one is connecting Obama and Amy Klobuchar. Is it because she’s too much of a Washington insider?

natesilver: Both Klobuchar and Obama are very Midwestern, I say as someone from the Midwest.

perry: She is not particularly charismatic or inspiring. Yes, we have a FiveThirtyEight measurement for that :)

julia_azari: Is being charismatic an important part of Obama’s legacy?

natesilver: With Klobuchar, the problem is that she goes too far in the direction of pragmatism, whereas Obama tried (and often succeeded) to have it both ways in terms of projecting both pragmatism and idealism.

perry: Agree.

Obama was maybe center-left on policy, but his message was never really, “We can’t do this” — which is what Klobuchar keeps saying about a lot of big Democratic initiatives. She is not exactly hope and change. She is pragmatism. She even uses the phrase “pragmatic progressive” to describe herself.

julia_azari: A great example of this is the comment she made at a CNN townhall this week about the idea of free college for everyone. After saying she was against it, Klobuchar said: “If I was a magic genie and could give that to everyone and we could afford it, I would.” That was on every podcast I listened to this morning.

Another thing I’ve been thinking about that I haven’t seen in any of the candidates is that Obama had this very strong sense of history when he talked, particularly about race. He talked a fair amount about founding ideals. Because the current moment feels so pressing and Trump gives Democratic hopefuls such an obvious foil, I don’t have the sense that this is happening as much this time around.

natesilver: 2007-08 was fairly pressing too, though. With the financial crisis unfolding.

perry: I think Warren and Sanders are trying to tell stories and narratives, but about the economy. I don’t know that Booker or Harris can tell the story about race in America through the lens of being a black person in a compelling way, because Obama has done that.

I think we are agreeing that being an Obama-like candidate is not necessarily linked to being black. I agree with that to some extent — maybe 85 percent — but I have also watched voters tell Booker, “I like you, you sound like Obama.” And that is certainly related to Booker being black.

natesilver: And that’s one area — the sense of history and how it affected him personally –on which Beto, in particular, falls flat relative to Obama. He’s coming from a fairly privileged upbringing, so his personal “journey” isn’t likely to be all that compelling.

julia_azari: Another question I have is whether those stories will be more important in a crowded field — where differentiation is at a premium — or less important as who the hell can remember anything about anyone?

perry: The narrative that Warren and Sanders are telling is distinct. The other candidates are saying that what is wrong in the U.S. is largely about Trump, but those two are setting themselves apart by saying the villain is the wealthy or the 1 percent. That will matter to voters on the Left.

But Harris, as she was about to start her formal campaign, spoke extensively about her mother. I wonder if that resonated much with voters, with so much else going on in the news. I doubt it.

natesilver: Maybe we’re not talking enough about Booker? His period as mayor of Newark feels a lot like Obama’s time as a community organizer, in terms of how he’s trying to shape his narrative.

One of the things that was relatively distinctive about Obama was that he embraced his urbanness, when presidents typically come from more rural or suburban areas.

Booker has been trying to do the same thing.

perry: I think Booker is obviously in the Obama mold. You could even argue that Obama was in the Booker mold. (Booker was famous first, to some extent.)

julia_azari: But it seems to me like the Booker-Obama comparison is vulnerable to ham-handed comparisons about them both being younger black men.

natesilver: Yeah — if people are looking at race, are they going to think that the Booker-Obama comparison is too on the nose? Like, you want to be Obama-ish or Obama-adjacent, but not too much like Obama.

julia_azari: I also wonder what it means for white men like O’Rourke or Buttigieg to be positioned as the inheritors of the Obama legacy. That seems to me to be a sign of a conscious effort to craft an Obama legacy that’s not about race or identity. (Though Buttigieg is gay, and I don’t want to downplay the significance of that.)

sarahf: So what would it mean then if Joe Biden were to enter the field? He was Obama’s vice president. Does proximity to Obama matter when it comes to being the “Obama candidate”?

perry: I don’t know. I tend to think that Biden’s waiting to make a decision about running is connected to the fact that he will likely not be a big favorite if he gets into the race. I think he assumes (like I do) that lots of people who voted for Obama aren’t going to vote for him.

natesilver: Also, the fact that Obama is meeting with all 73 other Democratic candidates seems like it’s not great news for Biden.

julia_azari: If Biden were to enter the race, it would focus questions on Obama’s legacy, because that would have to be part of Biden’s political story. It would definitely open him up for attack from the other candidates and make the idea of an “Obama candidate” more contested.

perry: I tend to think liberal Democrats in particular will find plenty of ways to attack Biden that will have nothing to do with Obama. Obama was young, something of an outsider and non-white, but Biden is none of those things. It will be easy for other candidates to suggest that they, not Biden, are the “Obama candidate” for 2020.

And I think the answer is intuitive when the question is: Who is more like the “Obama candidate,” Biden or Harris? (Harris.)

sarahf: But how much does it matter if a candidate is like Obama if the goal is to just select someone who can beat Trump?

perry: That’s a good question, but it may overlook how many different groups of people Obama won over. Obama managed to do somewhat well among white, non-college voters in the Midwest and get high turnout among African-Americans.

Is there anyone in this field who can do that?

natesilver: I mean …. maayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyybe Booker? I’m much more bullish on Harris’s chances overall, but Booker has a reputation as being a little bit better as a retail politician.

julia_azari: The question also matters as to Obama’s eventual legacy, which is something that will be of importance to a lot of people — some of whom aren’t even professional presidential scholars!

perry: In some ways, the question of who will be the next Obama is quite relevant to electability considerations.

sarahf: COALITION BUILDING TIME

julia_azari: Yeah, the ability to build a coalition like Obama is the more pressing concern.

And in 2008, Obama did two things in terms of the electoral map that I think are notable: (1) He had a strong showing in the Midwest (he won Wisconsin by 14 percentage points and (2) he made a dent in some Republican areas (North Carolina, Virginia and Indiana).

perry: A 2020 version of Obama’s 2008 victory might be: getting big turnout among Asian, black and Latino voters, flipping Arizona and Georgia blue, nearly winning Texas, and carrying Wisconsin and Michigan, because those states are swingy.

julia_azari: And that’s a continuation, in some ways, of a kind of ad hoc Electoral College strategy, rather than a fundamental change.

sarahf: Or an example of successful coalition-building as you all mentioned. Any last thoughts?

julia_azari: I just want to reiterate that this is an important question about the direction of one of the two major parties and about the legacy of the first African-American president.

(And since I’m writing about it, not at all self-serving!)

natesilver: I do think electability was a pretty big part of the Obama brand in 2008. There was a lot of subtle and not-so-subtle messaging to suggest that he could expand the map more than Hillary Clinton could.

And remember, Obama was very popular in 2008, at least at the start of the campaign, even among independents and some moderate Republicans.

perry: I kind of think the search for the next Obama will end up like the search for the next Bill Clinton (a Southern centrist) that happened from, say, 2001 to 2007 (John Edwards, Mark Warner, etc.). The next great Democratic candidate will be his or her own thing — a person who builds a multiracial coalition (because that’s who the Democrats are), but in a way that is distinct from what Obama did. O’Rourke, Harris and Klobuchar are all distinct from Obama — Warren and Sanders are even more so.

natesilver: It’s hard to win the Democratic primary — or to win the general election as a Democrat — without building a multiracial coalition. Which is why I wonder if Obama isn’t the new normal.