#like whos really “playing the hero” jc?

[dephoraowo]

I feel like some people in the fandom need to go read a dictionary because where on earth does the novel even show Wei Wuxian having a hero complex?

The novel literally shows the opposite:

The suction from within Biling Lake was growing progressively more powerful. While Wei Wuxian’s sword excelled in dexterity and agility, a lack of strength just happened to be its weakness, and it was forcefully pulled to lower and lower altitudes until it was close to the surface of the lake.

Wei Wuxian steadied himself while yanking on Su She with both hands, shouting, “Somebody come help! If I can’t get him up, I’m gonna have to let go!”

And this:

“Stand back,” Lan Wangji said. “You are not needed here.”

Wei Wuxian humbly took his advice and backed off. He backed all the way to the entrance and took a peek outside. Wen Ning was in the middle of stoically strangling Song Lan, lifting the man by his neck and slamming him into the wall, creating a giant man-shaped hole in the process. Song Lan, also expressionless, seized Wen Ning’s wrist and flipped him over, crashing him into the ground. Loud, incessant bangs and booms accompanied the battle between the two stone-faced fierce corpses. Neither side could feel pain, nor were they afraid of injuries. Unless they were cut to pieces, they could keep fighting no matter how many limbs they broke.

“There doesn’t seem to be a need for me here either,” Wei Wuxian mumbled to himself.

If the fandom is so desperate for a guy with a hero complex, they don't even need to worry. We already do! In fact, mxtx was so generous, she literally gave us two!

Wei Wuxian was observing the terrain as he fled around, setting off flames. Suddenly, a sharp pain stabbed through his arm. He looked down to see he had been shot by an arrow.

As it turned out, the Lan sect disciple whom Lan Wangji had glared at earlier had found a bow and arrow abandoned by the Wens and tried to shoot at the yao beast. Perhaps because of the beast’s fearsome savagery and agility, the boy’s hands were panicked and unsteady, and the shot had flown astray and pierced Wei Wuxian instead.

Wei Wuxian had no time to pull it out. He struck the ground again, calling forth another surge of flames.

“Back off! Don’t make more work for me!”

The sect disciple had wanted to fell the yao beast with a single shot to its vital spot, in hopes of regaining some of the face he’d lost earlier. Who could’ve thought it would turn out like this? His face flushed progressively paler as he fled into the water.

Let's not forget this scene:

Before walking away, Wei Wuxian repeatedly exhorted him to sit still and not to move. At least they weren’t too short of money—he had a habit of hiding small change in various corners of his clothes, which came in handy now. He walked around and bought food and dry rations to prepare for the long journey ahead. It took him less than an incense time to grab everything, after which he immediately returned to the spot where they’d separated.

But Jiang Cheng was gone.

...

Jiang Cheng struck a palm at him. The strike was so weak and feeble that Wei Wuxian did not even sway.

“Hit me all you want. As long as it makes you feel better.”

“Did you feel it?” Jiang Cheng asked.

Wei Wuxian was momentarily taken aback. “What? Feel what?”

“My spiritual power. Did you feel it?” Jiang Cheng pressed him.

“What spiritual power?” Wei Wuxian asked. “You didn’t use spiritual power at all.”

“I did.”

“What exactly… What did you say?”

Jiang Cheng repeated himself word for word. “I said, I used it. I used all my spiritual power and then some for that strike. So I’m asking you—did you feel it?”

Wei Wuxian stared at him, falling quiet. After a moment, he said, “Try hitting me again.”

“Forget it,” Jiang Cheng told him. “No matter how many times I hit you, the result will be the same. Wei Wuxian, do you know why Core-Melting Hand is called that?”

Wei Wuxian’s heart sank.

“Because his hands can dissolve golden cores and render the victims unable to form new ones,” Jiang Cheng continued. “Their spiritual power will dissipate, reducing them to nothing more than ordinary humans. And an ordinary human in a cultivation clan is good for nothing. They can only live out the rest of their common lives, abandoning all dreams of ever ascending higher.

“Wen Zhuliu dissolved Mom and Father’s golden cores. Once they lost the ability to fight back, he killed them.”

Wei Wuxian’s mind was in turmoil. At a loss as to what to do, he murmured, “…Core-Melting Hand… Core-Melting Hand…”

Jiang Cheng laughed grimly. “Wen Zhuliu, Wen Zhuliu. I want to seek revenge. I have to. But how can I? I don’t even have a golden core anymore, and I’ll never be able to form a new one again. So how am I going to take revenge? Ha ha ha ha ha ha, ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha…”

Wei Wuxian’s legs gave out from under him. He stared at Jiang Cheng, who seemed to have gone insane. Words failed him.

No one knew better than him just how competitive Jiang Cheng was. How much he valued his own cultivation and spiritual power. And with a single strike, Core-Melting Hand had shattered his cultivation, self-esteem, and hope for revenge to smithereens!

Jiang Cheng howled with laughter like a madman. He lay back down on the bed with his arms spread open and abandoned himself to despair. “Wei Wuxian, why did you save me? What’s the point of saving me? To let me live on uselessly while I watch the Wen dogs run rampant?”

...

Though awake, he remained motionless, not even flipping over and asking where they were. He wouldn’t eat or drink. It was as if he was interested only in dying.

“Do you really want to die?” Wei Wuxian asked.

“I can’t get revenge even if I live, so I might as well die. Who knows, maybe I can even turn into a malicious ghost,” Jiang Cheng said.

“You’ve gone through Soul-Tranquilization Rites since you were a kid. Even if you die, you won’t turn into a malicious ghost,” Wei Wuxian commented.

“Since I can’t seek revenge dead or alive, what difference does it make if I live or die?”

After that, Jiang Cheng didn’t speak again.

...

Jiang Cheng’s mind and face were both racked with confusion. “Then why was I able to pull it out?”

“Because the sword recognizes you as Wei-gongzi,” Wen Ning answered.

Lan Wangji stood up, lifting an unconscious Wei Wuxian on his back.

“What do you mean, it recognizes me as Wei Wuxian?” Jiang Cheng snapped. “How?! Why me?!”

“Because the golden core presently channeling spiritual power in your body is his!” Wen Ning snapped back, even harsher.

...

“Your golden core was never restored,” Wen Ning said. “It was completely dissolved by Wen Zhuliu! The reason you thought it was restored was because my jiejie, Wen Qing—the best doctor of the Wen Clan of Qishan—cut Wei-gongzi’s golden core from his body and used it to replace yours!”

Jiang Cheng’s face went blank for a second. “Replaced mine with his?”

“That’s right!” Wen Ning said. “Why do you think he never used Suibian again, and never carried his sword with him when he went out? Was it really because of some youthful indiscretion? Did he really enjoy it when others spoke ill of him behind his back or to his face, saying he was rude and had a poor upbringing? It was because bringing it along would be pointless! You see…if he brought his sword along when he was invited to those banquets and Night Hunts, there would inevitably be someone wanting to duel or spar with him for whatever reason. Without his golden core, he had no spiritual power. If he drew his sword, he wouldn’t last long at all…”

Jiang Cheng stood dumbly rooted to the spot. He looked queasy, and his lips quivered. He even forgot to use Zidian as he suddenly dropped Suibian to the ground and struck Wen Ning on the chest with his hand.

“You’re lying!” he bellowed.Wen Ning was forced a couple steps back from the blow. He picked up Suibian from the ground, sheathed it, and pushed it against Jiang Cheng’s chest.

“Take it!”

Jiang Cheng unconsciously took the sword. He didn’t move but looked at a loss as his gaze turned toward Wei Wuxian. He would have been fine if he hadn’t looked. But when he did, Wei Wuxian’s despondent expression and ghastly pale face—with blood still gathered at the corners of his mouth—was like a hammer smashing his heart. Moreover, Lan Wangji’s gaze chilled him so keenly he felt like he had plunged into a frozen cavern.

“Take that sword and go to the banquet hall, the drilling grounds, anywhere,” Wen Ning said. “Order everyone you come across to pull it from its sheath and see if anyone can! Then you’ll see if I’m lying! Sect Leader Jiang, you…you are such a competitive person. All your life, you have been competing with and comparing yourself to others. But know this—you could never have compared to him!”

...

Out of the blue, Lan Wangji asked, “Is it painful?”

“What?” Wen Ning said.

“Extracting one’s core. Is it painful?”

“Lan-gongzi. You wouldn’t believe me if I told you no, would you?”

“I assumed Wen Qing would have found a way.”

“Before going up the mountain, my jiejie prepared many anesthetics in hopes of alleviating the pain of extracting his core. But later, she realized such medication would be completely useless. If the subject is in a numbed state when the golden core is extracted from the body, it affects the core’s stability. It becomes harder to prevent it from dissipating.”

“…Therefore?” Lan Wangji probed.

Wen Ning pausing in his rowing. “Therefore, the subject of the golden core extraction procedure has to be completely conscious for its full duration.”

He had to be conscious as he watched his golden core be cut from his meridians and extracted from his body. He had to feel his surging spiritual energy gradually subsiding, calming, turning ordinary—until it became a pool of stagnant water that could no longer make waves.

It was a long time before Lan Wangji found his voice again. It was a little raspy, and the words he spoke seemed to tremble. “Its full duration?”

“For one day and two nights,” Wen Ning said. “He remained conscious throughout.”

“At the time, how confident were you of success?”

“About fifty percent.”

“Fifty percent.” Lan Wangji soundlessly drew a deep breath and shook his head. He repeated, “…Fifty percent.”

His hand tightened its hold on Wei Wuxian’s waist, gripping so hard his knuckles turned white.

“After all, no one had ever conducted any sort of core-swapping procedure before,” Wen Ning said. “My jiejie had written essays on the subject, but they were only theoretical. No one would ever let her experiment on them, so the theories remained untested. The sect’s seniors said she was indulging in flights of fancy, that the idea was completely impractical. They knew no one would ever be willing to extract their golden core and give it to someone else—because if they did, they would be fundamentally crippled. They would never reach the pinnacle of their ability but would remain mediocre the rest of their life.

“So when Wei-gongzi returned to seek us out, my jiejie was reluctant to even attempt the procedure, at first. She warned him that writing an essay was one thing, but actually doing it was quite another. She wasn’t even confident she’d have a fifty percent chance of success.

“But Wei-gongzi kept pestering her. He said fifty percent was fine; the chances of success and failure were equal. Even if it didn’t work out and his core was wasted, he wasn’t worried about his future—but that wasn’t the case for Sect Leader Jiang. He was too competitive, too focused on what he stood to gain and lose in this aspect, since cultivation was his life. And if Sect Leader Jiang could only ever be an ordinary, mediocre person, his life would be over.”

Definition of hero complex:

A hero complex, also known as a saviour complex or hero syndrome, is a psychological phenomenon where a person seeks recognition for being a hero. Hero complexes can be detrimental to the lives of others and put innocent people at risk.

A person with a hero complex may:

- Create situations where they can be the hero and resolve them

- Take responsibility for problems that aren't theirs to solve

- Offer unsolicited advice

- Overstep boundaries

- Strive to be the ones to save the day, no matter the odds or situation

In the examples above, we can clearly see that Wei Wuxian knows his own limits. If there is something he can do to help, he will help. HOWEVER! He will not help if he knows that it isn't within his own capabilities because there's a chance that, if he fails, he might ruin the situation further and make things worse than it is! And I know people will be using this as a refute, so I will also say it here. Wei Wuxian will not make risky decisions UNLESS THERE IS NO OTHER CHOICE! None of the novel's textual evidence mentions any kind of instances in which he acts "recklessly" with his own life in a situation where any other action other than risking his life would have achieved the same or better results. If there are safer options, he will not make such decisions.

This is the direct opposite of Su She and Jiang Cheng. Su She was clearly trying to save face by killing the Xuanwu of Slaughter, "playing the hero," but he failed, either due to lack of skill or just not in the right headspace, and made things worse.

In Jiang Cheng’s case, I honestly don't know why he distracted the guards. Did he do it out of love, or was he just trying to "play the hero?" I say this because the novel didn't even say that the guards spotted Wei Wuxian. It just says they were patrolling around the area. If he did it out of care for Wei Wuxian, why didn't he take responsibility? If he really did try to save Wei Wuxian from the guards, why was Jiang Cheng not willing to live with the consequences? Did he not expect to be captured by them? He overestimated himself if that's the case. And he made things worse for Wei Wuxian because after that stunt of his, he just wanted to die. Not only that, he literally made his own sacrifice into Wei Wuxian's problem. And how could Wei Wuxian, who had just promised Jiang Cheng's parents to take care of him, let him die like this? So Wei Wuxian was forced to give up his core to give Jiang Cheng a reason to live. (Honestly, Jiang Cheng could still live as a normal person. He could still lead the clan as a normal person since a clan follows bloodline. Doesn't matter if he is competent or not, core or no. We literally have Jin Guangshan leading the Jins for goodness sake, does that man even know how to fight? Jiang Cheng just can't stand being an average dude, which is so ironic because in Wei Wuxian's second life, he literally became an average dude, even with a core. Man couldn't even defeat Jin Guangyao.)

[tavina-writes]

CQL and Genre Intertextuality

I'm being bashed over the head with the "nhs's fan in CQL is made of xuantie/dark iron" thing again and @poorlittleyaoyao please understand that I am thinking of this constantly since you made that post talking about it because I'm just.

holding my head in my hands bc ye gods the cql show writers were genre savvy in ways that are hilarious but also make me feel like I've been hit upside the head with a waffle iron.

For those of us who are no longer damaged by the post or hadn't seen it (I don't actually know where it's gone bc the search feature doesn't work on this webbed site):

Xuantie/Dark Iron is a Jin Yong created metal that famously was used for the blade of the Dragon Slaying Sabre in the third novel of the Condor Trilogy, 倚天屠龍記/The Heavenly Sword and Dragon Saber.

The Heaven Reliant Sword 倚天劍 was created from Yang Guo and Xiao Longnv's Gentleman and Lady swords, whilst the Dragon Slaying Saber 屠龍刀 was created from Grandmaster Dugu Seeking-a-Loss's Dark Iron Sword.

Can we please all take a moment to appreciate how NHS's fan not his saber, NHS, from The Family With The Sabers, gets to shout about how his fan is made of xuantie. The most famous for being the metal that made up The Dragon Slaying Saber. His fan. Not his saber. his fan. dark iron. Dragon Slaying Saber. This is so funny I'm about to mcfucking lose it yet again while typing this.

Going back to Grandmaster Dugu Seeking-A-Loss (who appears in both Return of the Condor Heroes and Xiao Ao Jianghu) and his giant pet condor (sadly, only a ROCH feature) who might've been his one true soulmate for a second, this situation from episode 7, when the Yunmeng Siblings are leaving the Cloud Recesses:

Now, the subtitles here really DO NOT do this line justice because when I first saw it it took me FLAT THE FUCK OUT and I had to lie on the floor laughing for like, 80 seconds before I got my breath back.

Okay, what this line ACTUALLY says is "I am Dugu Qiubai (Grandmaster Dugu Seeking-A-Loss), what's wrong with seeking a match?"

Now, to understand this, we come to this backstory on Dugu Qiubai in XAJH:

“Senior master Dugu Seeking-A-Loss, who created this set of sword techniques, had a name ‘Seeking-A-Loss.’ He had been seeking a loss all his life and still couldn’t get one. Once the sword techniques were executed, he would become unmatched anywhere in the world. Why would he have to defend? If anyone could have forced him to draw his sword back and defend himself, the respectful master would have burst with joy and be delighted beyond measure.” Feng Qingyang said. “Dugu Seeking-A-Loss, Dugu Seeking-A-Loss,” Linghu Chong muttered as he imagined how the senior master had wandered about the Martial World, unmatched anywhere, with only his sword, and couldn’t even find a single one who was capable of forcing him into a defending stance. That was truly admirable.

from Chapter Ten of XAJH: Sword Training.

"If anyone could force him to draw his sword back to defend himself, the grandmaster would have burst with joy and be delighted beyond measure" DO YOU SEE WHY JC STARTED CALLING WWX SHAMELESS NOW. they're JUNIORS. WWX is calling himself "the greatest man of all, who'd sought the feeling of losing just ONCE being forced to defend himself just ONCE in a LIFETIME" and saying "LWJ might be my equal. my soulmate. the loss I was seeking my whole life."

All 15 years of it I'm sure, WWX.

I'm not going to get into finding martial arts manuals or a respected grandmaster who taught you incredible things in a cave bc 1) LHC and Feng Qingyang up there are sitting together, in a cave and LHC is being taught incredible things and 2) Duan Yu from Demi-Gods and Semi-Devils once found the magic finger lasers of ultra laser in a cave. In front of the statue of a goddess. (don't talk about the dancing goddess statue now, Tav. We don't have time for that in this post.)

Not kidding the intertextuality of CQL and how much it plays with and against the tropes of its genre, especially other wuxia tv adaptations as well as wuxia novels is insane. There's other ones I'm missing for certain and these were just the most funny to me, personally, but! just! oh my god! insane! insane! SO funny, so clever in so many ways

[or-echo]

When I first drew that JC reference like three months ago, I didn't really expect that I'd turn it into a full *project,* but here we are anyways lol. I also didn't expect to draw Alex, let alone redesign her! But that's a long-ish story. All of them are relatively janky looking in their own right, but they're all just personal reference points so who cares.

Since this isn't exactly a *thrilling* artwork and I'm a little low on ideas for funnier/more engaging stuff, I think I'll do a little analysis on each design. Some cross between analysis and personal interpretation. Also explaining the intention behind the Alex redesign, since it's a departure from the original.

FOR PAUL;

Most of the visual interest in his design comes from the trench coat. Most evident when you *take* it from him. He looks almost bare without it. A lot of it may be the lack of the purple in his design; my hypothesis is that his design manages to be so eye-catching through a relatively successful triadic color scheme. Purple, green, and orange (brown, but it's a dark orange, in this case). Usually, triadic schemes are best used for their sharp contrast, but that's not the case for Paul. His design may not be outright *eye catching* but it is unique and will draw the eye, mostly due to the low saturation of his color palette. The colors don't fight or pop out too much. They share emphasis.

A funny side note- Paul's eyes are not the same as JC's, which I didn't realize until I colored him in properly. His eyes sit on a darker blue base- the bright blue, which IS the same as JC's, takes the place of the pupil. Meanwhile, JC's pupil is an even lighter blue.

Drawn at approximately 5'11.

FOR JC (male);

JC's outfit is undeniably a ripoff of Blade (1998), therefore, the best means to distinguish the two is through color palettes. JC gets to have his cold, moody colors, but they're not completely *dark.* Where Blade wears black, JC wears blue. Dark blues (mostly), but still blues nonetheless.

I took a few liberties with JC. I didn't quite like the look of the leg straps (and then I gave them to Alex- oops) so I replaced them with leg pouches instead. Better for storage & the tactical look JC is going for.

I also toyed with the idea of changing his hairstyle to a short one, but thought I'd keep the slicked back hair because I like the idea of him taking inspiration from his older brother. After all, the Deus Ex Bible said he admired him greatly when he was younger; the whole secret agent deal. I like to attribute the very 'action hero' look to that idealization as well. JC as a character is very idealistic, almost- if not outright- naive. His picture of the world is more fiction than reality until the events of the narrative rip it from him- or at least, that's what I interpreted. Compare him to Paul, who has a much simpler, more practical design. Aside from the embellishments on the trenchcoat, Paul looks extremely normal. Meanwhile, JC sticks out quite a lot.

The boots were fully improvised. I had no clue what was going on in the texture and couldn't find a reference I liked.

Headcanon name for him is James Chris because I like how it sounds. :) I only remembered that James Bond exists AFTER I thought of it and couldn't find a name I liked better.

Drawn at approximately 5'11.

FOR JC (FEMALE)

Drew her shortly after I played the Lay D. Denton mod for the first time. I was so inspired that I *had* to make my own design for her. I love the idea of a female JC.

I did take some liberties from the mod's design, though. I returned her widow's peak, for one. One of the odd tidbits I remember from biology class was that widow's peaks are a dominant genetic trait, so even if she *wasn't* a clone of Paul, the chances of her having one would still be 50% at minimum. As for her hairstyle overall, I thought I'd let it be loose but still slicked back- reminiscent of her male counterpart. JC struck me as the type to keep her hair short rather than put it into a bun or ponytail. More convenient overall. Not a buzz cut- since male JC didn't get one either- but still above the shoulders.

I also removed the nail polish. It's an idea I love for a secret agent of her type, but I just don't get the idea that she'd wear it from her personality (+ refer to the bit about JC's 'tactical look'). It would suit someone like Navarre better in my opinon, showing efficiency in her job- that she's so good she wouldn't need to worry about chipping a nail as well as the fact that she has time to re-paint them. Unfortunately, Navarre has cybernetic arms. Maybe she can paint her nails anyways- don't know.

Ditto for the lipstick.

I removed the stiletto heel- though that's not the fault of the mod. They had to use a generic model & re-texture it for her design, after all. I did, however, let her have about a ~2 inch heel. Nothing *too* obscene. More of just a reference.

The vest is modeled on one I saw online that I liked the look of.

Headcanon name for her is Joan because I've loved the name 'Joan' as long as I've been listening to Joan Jett's music. Kept Chris because I like the sound of it as a gender neutral name.

Drawn at approximately 5'6, with 2 inch heels to make her 5'8.

FOR ALEX:

Hers is somewhat of a story.

I was considering making this into a full Denton lineup- as I now have- but thought it would be incomplete without Alex. Issue is that I don't especially like Alex's design all that much, male OR female, but female especially. That's when I thought to redesign her. Side note, I went w/ female Alex because I liked the voice performance better + I just like the idea :)

It spiraled from there, starting as a design more consistent with the other Dentons (one of the gripes I have w/ the original design), into a rewrite. So I wouldn't say that this is by *any* means the same Alex as Invisible War.

Given that it's relevant to the design, the premise is as follows; rather than being Alex 20 years in the future, this Alex would instead be the one found in Area 51, the one who was retconned out of the story. The intention behind that setpiece in the level always interested me a lot, whether or not it was later retconned. The idea of accelerated clone growth + memory implantation also caught my eye, and I wanted to use her to explore all of those things a little more. Therefore, that would be her function. The Dentons are prototypes, after all. She exists in an alternate world, a take on the scrapped UNATCO route everyone wonders about, though it would differ in the sense that it only happens if JC fails the Lebedev mission. Paul goes fully MIA, and Alex is deployed early to fill the empty space. Without having led a full life & full outside control over her memories, she'd be a complete UNATCO zealot; what MJ12 wanted JC to be. There's more detail than that, but that's about what's necessary for the design to make sense.

It's a blend of the other Dentons & prominent UNATCO figures. She has the same physical features as her siblings- same face, same approximate build, same nanoaugmentations, so on. Her clothes, however, are meant to resemble the mech-augs more than it does the Dentons. Where the Dentons wear looser clothing, Alex's is more form fitting, akin to Anna Navarre & Gunther, even if she has no cybernetic joints that loose fabric could get caught in. It's meant to reinforce the idea of her loyalty to UNATCO rather than anything else.

The jacket is meant to resemble the Dentons, however. Even then, it's cropped because she wouldn't necessarily be a "full" Denton (for lack of a better term) or share a true connection with them beyond genetics.

As for color scheme, it follows that pattern. She relies on a black base more than her siblings do, again akin to the mech-augs. The prominent blue is meant to be similar to JC's, but it's also worth mentioning that JC and Paul (Paul especially) have much more of a green tint than what I selected for her. Alex's is more metallic, once again to mimic Navarre & Gunther. Still, she is a Denton, fully manufactured or not, so the blue of her design is meant to be more prominent & full than it is with the mech-augs.

The hair gave me some trouble. It's meant to be the same-ish style as the Alex of Invisible War, but I'm ngl I was struggling to draw it. I had also wanted to give her some kind of facial accessory- Paul has a beard, JC has his sunglasses, but I couldn't find something for Alex. I didn't like the look of a facemask or gasmask- I also considered goggles, but they would be too reminiscent of JC's shades while also being made redundant by her augmentations. In the end, I left her face as-is.

Drawn at approximately 5'6, with 1 inch heels to make her 5'7.

Anyways, I made an Invisible War version of the lineup too for fun, and because I wanted to see what the Alex design would look like with the original purple look. :)

isn't character design fun

[zykamiliah]

There's a line from a Mili song that I feel encapsulates a lot of QiJiu. It's "You were right, the ones who gravitate towards self-sacrifice are the most, are the most selfish ghosts" from Dancing Ghost's Ball Jointed Darling. I think that SJ and YQY both want the other to live, even if it's without them. The difference is that SJ will lie to himself about that because he'd much prefer to keep YQY with him then not. YQY on the other hand is so used to taking on the weight of other's that he doesn't really see himself as having a use if he's not stuck being a pillar for others. He knows SJ wouldn't be happy carrying the weight with him so he keeps taking on more and more of SJ's actions as his own guilt in a twisted way of protecting him. SJ want's them to be equals and YQY want's to be SJ's shield no matter what it costs himself. SJ doesn't have the emotional knowledge to be able to actually accurately describe his own feelings I think, he's in such a base sense of paranoia that he can't trust anything that YQY or anyone else does for him. Sorry for the ramble, I just feel like both the lack of communication between them and WWX & JC is more complicated then other's think and it's not a matter of morality. They are all really complicated characters and I feel like reducing them to villain and hero doesn't do the story any favors.

setting aside the differences between qijiu and wwx and jc's relationship, i agree with you on this.

i think a big takeaway from mxtx's novels is that most characters can't be defined by binaries (with some exceptions): they are people making choices. sometimes those choices hurt people, and that's what you learn first: the bad choices. then mxtx shows you where the characters come from, and you can sympathize with them, yet still there is a point where the characters, regardless of their backstory, consciously take a path of hurting others (and themselves, inevitably) that's what actually condemned them. but the thing is, you can point to any moment of that backstory and say "see, if this had been different, maybe they wouldn't made that choice". they're tragic characters because their circumstances were unfortunate, and those circumstances doomed them to make terrible choices; then, at the same time, those were their conscious choices. they had agency.

you can see all that play out in qijiu and their messy, complicated relationship. one can understand why they made those choices, even if we disagree with them. even the most selfless action can turn selfish and vice versa. you can love someone and hurt them. you can love someone and lash out at them because there's unhappiness and anger within you. and the worldview of people with self-worth issues tends to twist to fit those believes.

i think you mention something that's actually really important and it's that neither side of qijiu have the emotional knowledge to express themselves in another way; i'd add that they never had a chance to learn how to do it, and specially sj, who had two major bad influences in his life that he ended up emulating, consciously or not. i'd also add that in the "dog eats dog" world that's pidw, sj, someone who grew up in the streets, must have the belief of "survival of the fitness", and because his experiences, appearing weak or letting others step over him (from his point of view) feels like a threat to him. he's paranoid about losing, because losing means his way of surviving is threatened. in that context, someone that puts themselves in danger to protect him or back him up becomes precious. sj may be power-hungry, petty, jealous, mean, aggressive and vitriolic, but he is steadfastly loyal to the ONLY person that has shown to care for him selflessly and unconditionally; and he'll be like that in return. but after what he perceives as a betrayal, his feelings for yqy are complicated. he resents him but loves him, thus he doesn't know where he stands and the only thing he's sure about is that yqy feels guilty and indebted and he'll push and push to see how much yqy is willing to take for this debt he has to him.

i also think that yqy should have been harder on sj irt what sj did as a peak lord. more than trying to coax him, he should have put his foot down about what sj did to lbh and not just passively and sadly allow it to happen, no matter that sj had the authority over qjp. because of his guilt and his love and his pity for sj, he allowed what he shouldn't. even out of love and pity bad choices are made. he had a better grasp on what's right or wrong and that something like abusing disciples would eventually bite sj in the ass (Karma), so it wasn't as if he didn't know. and this type of relationship is something that happens in real life, particularly in parent-child relationships where the parent pities the child to the point that they let the child do whatever they want and just apologize in their stead. in the long run it ends up hurting the child more.

but even yqy's choices i can understand, because i know where yqy comes from. and i think that's the point: just understanding the big spectrum of human experience that can be expressed through this characters, understanding the characters and seeing things from their point of view. if mxtx didn't want us to see that, she would have done like airplane and just chop off the backstories.

i ended up rambling too haha :3

[ddthebreadboy]

The Case of Jiang Cheng's Canon Selective Amnesia

Jiang Cheng at MDZS chapter 59:

"Lan WangJi and Jin ZiXuan and those people can just die! Just let them die! What's their deaths got to do with us?! To do with our sect?! Why did this have to happen?! Why?!

"Go die, go die, go die! Everyone!!!"

And yet Jiang Cheng at MDZS chapter 87:

Jiang Cheng mocked, "Look how forgetful you are. What does unwelcome people mean? Then let me remind you. It was because you played the hero and saved Second Young Master Lan, who's standing beside you right now, that the entire Lotus Pier and my parents went down with you---, "

From blaming Jin Zixuan and Lan Wangji, into blaming Lan Wangji alone🙃🙃

Why?

Duh of course because Jin Zixuan has married his sister🥱

The so called sin of causing a sect to be exterminated can be erased as long as you marry the sister~

Oh. I Forgot to add the REAL thought of Jiang Cheng at MDZS chapter 59:

In his heart, Jiang Cheng knew clearly that back in the cave of the Xuanwu of Slaughter at Muxi Mountain, even if Wei WuXian hadn't saved Lan WangJi, the Wen Sect would have found some reason to come over sooner or later.

Dude knew perfectly why the massacre happened at all. Yet refuse to face reality. C'mon, call some psychologist here, a delusional patient who refuse to see reality may have been spotted.

In addition, the REAL people whom Wen Chao wanted to kill and thus were saved by Wei Wuxian in Xuanwu Cave were (MDZS ch 52):

Wen Chao was enraged, shouting, "How dare you! Kill them!"

A few of the Wen Sect's disciples unsheathed their swords, rushing toward Lan WangJi and Jin ZiXuan.

Yes. It is Lan Wangji and Jin Zixuan.

Not only Lan Wangji but also JIN FUCKINN ZIXUAN!

Alright, next:

Wen Chao looked as if his mood was much better. He spat, "Talking back to me, what did you think you are? People like you really do deserve to be killed."

Who talked back to Wen Chao?

Oh, let's look back a while ago:

Jin ZiXuan lifted his brows, "Is that enough? It wasn't enough for people to be flesh shields for you, and now you want live humans to bleed for you to use as bait?!"

Wei WuXian found this somewhat surprising, So Jin ZiXuan really does have some nerve.

Wen Chao pointed at them, "Are you rebelling against me? Let me warn you, I've been tolerating you for a very long time. Right now, hang the brat up with your own hands! Or else none of the people from your sects can expect to return!"

Jin ZiXuan sneered and refused to budge. Lan WangJi also looked as though he had heard nothing, so motionless that he seemed to be meditating.

Oh MY GOD! The one who angered Wen Chao first and talked back to him, it turned out it was Jin Zixuan all along!

That mighty Heir of the venerated LanlingJin, Jin Zixuan!

My my my...

To think that Jiang Cheng acted as if it was Lan Wangji solely who offended Wen Chao and needed to be saved... But the reality were...🧐🧐

The young and mighty Sandu Sengshou must have problem with hearing and seeing for him to think that the one Wei Wuxian saved is only Lan Wangji, right?

Or maybe Selective amnesia?

Oh!

It is because Jin Zixuan has married the Sister so the "so called sin" Got defaulted🙃

(All Excerpts are from ExRebel FanTrans)

***

JC (toxic ones) Stan: Listen to our babyCheng, Lan Wangji is the reason YunmengJiang got destroyed!

JC throughout the MDZS: It's me~! Hi~! I'm the problem, it's me~! (The one who has problem with hearing, seeing, delusional tendency, plus selective amnesia)

[sisterdivinium]

I always find it amusing how some people seem to be earnestly shocked by how not every viewer falls in love with Ava from the get go or how some don't really like her at all.

Disliking a main character is not a moral flaw, nor is it a novelty in the history of humans reacting to stories. There are no rules pertaining to how an audience must be fond of a protagonist. Different people like different things, as the saying goes, and, regardless of whether the title of the show is "goofy" or not (it was Forbes' Paul Tassi that deemed it so, if memory serves right), some of us were reeled in by it and expected what it says on the tin rather than following a reluctant hero for a handful of episodes while she avoids precisely that same narrative we might have initially signed up for.

It's both a matter of expectations and values; I've said somewhere before that JC's gang is unbearable to me also because I find no common ground with characters who embody a lifestyle I have seen up close and strongly rejected. They remind me of people I loathed and who certainly loathed me back. Subjective? Entirely, even though I also object to them as characters given how mind-numbingly dull and superficial they appear to me, as they are presented in the show (flat characters instead of round, if you want to E.M. Forster it, but so flat, so thin, that they might be ripped apart any moment). JC's speech on institutions is all pretty and commendable, but it sounds empty when the big middle finger he and his companions are giving to a higher social class is... The remarkable "cause" of crashing at their places so kids can get high on drugs in raves around Europe, apparently. His professed idealism doesn't really go beyond words -- and it's hard to sympathise with that.

Of course anyone could say the OCS also boasts of void discourses, ultimately meaningless words that deform reality, obscure it, manipulate it (the halo bearer, the gift, worth, God, grace, faith...) and they would be justified in their protestation seeing as the church's words are proven to be hollow as the story progresses. I won't argue with you there.

Yet this is thematically relevant considering the show's title. That is what I had hoped to see when I first hit play on the initial episode some time in 2021 (I'm neither of the "original" fans who watched WN as soon as it came out nor of the post-s2 crowd). So when Ava momentarily chooses that other lot, that other nucleus over this one, it almost led me to choose another show (and I have friends who did, despite my guarantees that it would pick up the pace quickly enough).

Now, none of this is meant to point fingers or judge people who loved Ava from the start or even those who might have a soft spot for JC's gang. The only thing this little text aims to accomplish is to explain how we all watch the same thing but wearing different pairs of lenses -- and that is a quality rather than a disadvantage. It means Warrior Nun can speak to all sorts of different people with different interests, values and sympathies, and it once more demonstrates how foolish Netflix's decision to cancel a show with so much potential reach was.

And, if you must know, I came round on Ava later on thanks to the powerhouse that is Alba Baptista's portrayal of her, allied with the clever writing I was treated to in season two.

If the power to change a viewer's opinion and feelings over a character she had disliked doesn't speak to the sheer talent of the people involved in a project, on and off-screen, I really do not know what else could serve as a higher compliment to everyone that brought it to life.

[llycaons]

ep33 (1/3): relitigating the suicide scene

so picking right up where we left off, I know wwx is extremely unpopular now but does this asshole have to bring up the massacre at LP??? that seems targeted towards wwx's specific and fairly private insecurities. but once someone is a villain, that means everything they've ever done is tainted. so as if this wasn't bad enough, now he has people on all sides turning on him with emotional attacks far more damaging than any physical wounds they could impart

oh yeah and people telling him directly to die. really heartbreaking to see this happen to a character so vigorously attached to life, someone who's been beaten down again and again and who refused to die. and wwx loves his life. loved. you can tell how devastating this is to push someone like him to this

this will always be the most meaningful way that he dies. his suicide is one of the most powerful and significant events in the story. having him torn apart just hits different

first you tell him to play, now you tell him to stop. it's a good thing he never listens to you. man, but lwj was useless this night

well, that's not true. he tried to save wwx. he reminded wwx, just for a moment, that someone still cared about him. and that mattered

ohh the single tear

AND the spitting up blood, which alarms lwj so much that someone gets a hit on him. qi deviation?

and it just goes to show, doesn't it. all the posturing about brave dead soldiers and the loss of innocent lives was just a smoke show to conceal their true purpose. the hypocrisy, the corruption, the greed. as soon as he stumbles they latch onto his source of power to steal it for themselves

this is so raw. they hardly ever let him get this messy. but that is actual snot on there

THE RITE OF SPRING!!!!!!!!!!!! IT SOUNDS SO GOOD HERE. also they've been at it for hours, I guess? it's dawn

check out that sick cgi hand being severed from its arm. they're all just fucking killing each other trying to get the STA now. gloves off. sect leader yao just slit a guy's throat

I've seen a post like 'lwj killed a bunch of guys in wwx's defense at nightless city, I guess they just politely don't mention it' but lbr, nightless was a bloodbath because of the sect members killing each other too. if they bring up what any one person did, they'll have to face what they all did. better to blame all deaths on wwx

oh, bad cgi hand stab. my beloved. grabbed my attention early on

and this, and this. he's at his limit. he's been holding it in, but now he's just openly sobbing. at this point I'm ready for him to go. better to come back later, more at peace, than stay here and suffer

DEVASTATING. we know wwx will come back, eventually, but for lwj? he's watching the love of his life kill himself and he's powerless to stop him

I don't think cql lwj ever could have taken wwx anywhere against his will. even now, he's begging rather than trying to physically stop him. he didn't fly down on his sword to grab him. he doesn't have it in him to impede wwx's autonomy like that. even now

and here's more tears. beautiful shot

classic shot

another classic shot. looking like he can hardly believe it. I like when they talk in fics abt him losing his mind and not remembering or understanding much that happened this night. I don't think he's quite lucid. he didn't even seem to see lwj earlier. but he smiles a little, when he sees him. good old lan zhan, trying to save a lost cause

I also really like the blood running down his chin. I think it adds to the look really well

no words for this one. fuck. he must be so tired

jc's emotional journey here is worth paying attention to. obviously it's not the black and white hero-vanquishing-evil scene we saw at the beginning of the show, but I've seen multiple readings that try to simplify it in other ways, that try to say 'this is a private moment between only two characters', between wwx and jc or between wwx and lwj, when I think it's very clearly a significant interaction with both of them. jc and lwj are the two characters with the most significant relationships with wwx, and neither of their respective roles in the story can be shoved aside for the other. at least, not in the flashback arc. postres it's a bit of a different story

anywa wwx is never going to have a simple relationship with jc. especially not here or now, not after what just happened.

I have seen people criticize jc really harshly for killing his brother, which is annoying because it doesn't offer any context as to who wwx is or why this is happening. anyone can kill their brother, it all depends on why. I'd rather criticize him for things in the context of the scene

and why is he smiling? well, like with lwj, maybe it's nice to see a familiar face at the very end.

wwx is already planning to die here. jc's actions don't make that more likely, but they probably hurt wwx on an emotional level. or maybe he finds it fitting, a just end after what he feels like is an unforgivable crime. I don't think that makes jc's actions here better, btw. I still think this was a horrible thing to do to someone who loved and sacrificed so much for his family and for innocent people, whatever his mistakes.

he looked resigned in the moment, but revisiting it, it looks like he's bracing for pain. oh god this all hurts so much. I don't care who 'really' killed him. the emotional scars matter far more. and this isn't something wwx is going to forget when he wakes up. he has his eyes closed so he can't see how scared and sad jc looks but like, does it matter? must he coddle jc even now, when jc's about to try to kill him?

yeah it's pretty unambiguous that he stabbed that rock on purpose in order to dislodge it. the camera pans back up to him, he looks determined and angry, and he twists his sword. I've seen so many arguments and speculations on it and um he doesn't look confused or anything just terribly terribly sad. there's part of him that's grieving wwx too even as he tries to kill him. damn, but he always gets in his own way

I do think it's significant that he doesn't outright stab wwx - after all, why change it from ep1? maybe to make clear that this was a suicide more than a murder, despite appearances

yeah wwx sees what's happening and twists out pretty clearly

and jc looks...stunned? shocked? horrified? a bit dumb with his hair like that. this is hardly a straightforward or easy emotional time for him. he probably went home and cried for week and refused to consider that he might have been crying for wwx just as much as jyl

that being said I have limited sympathy for him over grieving wwx. like he didn't even try. he wanted him dead, and he died. though characteristically, wwx succeeded where he failed in actually doing the deed

DYING WITH A SMILE ON HIS FACE. HE KILLS ME I SAY

lwj obviously is devastated but jc here is shaking his head, as in disgust or disapproval. really, jc? he's dead, and you're still going to hold him in contempt?

this 'wei ying' got me way more than the first one did. soft, and broken, and full of regret.

[qiu-yan]

#this is a really thoughtful read - kudos op#i agree with the read on mdzs valuing idealism over pragmatism#i also think mmm okay this is hard to articulate but#i think that another thread is the unknowability / ambiguity of other people's motives#i think the narrative takes for granted that WHY people do things is essential to judging their morals#(in consequentialism i think ppl would argue that the only thing that matters is the result regardless of intention#but in most conventional ethics it matters a lot if e.g. you killed someone by accident vs. you killed someone on purpose)#this then presents a problem: you can only correctly judge other people if you know why they made the choices that they did#but we are all very bad at guessing each other's motives and so there's a good chance you will judge incorrectly

#and then mdzs plays with this by withholding information that's critical to understanding why ppl act the way they do#both in big unsubtle ways (wwx has a bad memory!! who's a villain? who's a hero? does lan zhan hate him?? he doesn't know!)#but it also plays with those questions in more subtle ways#the knock on extreme idealism is that it can be arrogant and self-centered and involve a lack of consideration for effects on other people#(''i care about MY morals regardless of the consequences for you'') and this accusation gets lobbed at wwx#and so i feel like the golden core reveal is significant in part bc it shows that wwx IS trying really hard to consider jc's feelings#and to avoid bad consequences (he completely fails! but he actually IS thinking about effects + keeping a secret to minimize them)#meanwhile the knock on extreme pragmatism is that it can be just a cover for selfishness (''i prioritize myself over anyone else'')#and so the reveal that jc sacrificed himself for wwx recontextualizes all his OTHER actions as not-purely-selfish too

#and mmm i mean i think i'm basically just repeating your points now op but this focus on the importance of motive#feels connected to placing the highest value on what you idealistically TRY to do (not what you pragmatically succeed at)#the golden core reveal doesn't change anything concrete except our understanding of wwx's motives#the discovery that jc got captured on purpose also doesn't change anything except our understanding of his motives#like. their fundamental falling-outs still exist and are about other things#so the only thing these reveals recontextualize is their sorta... internal priorities + values + sacrifices prior to the big conflicts

#and like. one of the things i find so fascinating is that you've got jc actually emotionally protesting against motive-based judgment#when he finds out about the golden core et al#going ''no i REFUSE. why should i feel bad for you now. you still did all the things that i was mad about!!!''#but also like... the point of that moment is clearly that he DOES feel guilty now. it DOES change how he feels about wwx.#in the same way that jc's self-sacrifice is meant to change how we feel about jc which is why it has to be withheld till late in the book#/ tag ramble

super interesting tags via @silverwhittlingknife 👀👀

wei wuxian vs. pragmatism: what MDZS intends to say about righteousness

copy/pasting most of my rather bitchy reply into its own individual post because i think it deserves to stand on its own.

so i think we can all agree that MXTX intends for us to read MDZS and conclude that wei wuxian is ultimately a deeply heroic and righteous person. whether you as the reader agree with this assessment of wei wuxian's moral character is another question entirely, but at the very least it is fairly obvious to all of us that MXTX intends for us to read him as a good person.

so why does MXTX call wei wuxian a good person? what aspects of his character and which of his choices make him a good person? what moral framework and what definition of morality does MXTX employ in order to call wei wuxian a good person?

i posit that MXTX argues that wei wuxian is heroic precisely because he is not pragmatic - because he adheres to his moral ideals despite the consequences, and because he did not make moral sacrifices at critical junctures of his life. the first half of this post will argue that wei wuxian is not pragmatic. the second half of this post will argue that this is exactly why wei wuxian is heroic, and that the moral framework employed by MXTX is deeply idealistic instead.

so let's begin.

let's start by establishing two things.

first: what MXTX argues about morality through the narrative of MDZS and the reader's own beliefs about morality are two different things. me saying "MDZS argues that xyz is righteousness" and me saying "i think xyz is righteousness" are two different statements. the following analysis is concerned not with what i myself consider to be righteous, but rather what MXTX argues through MDZS is righteous.

second: wei wuxian is not pragmatic.

what does it mean to be pragmatic? unless we are speaking about the school of philosophy specifically (which i am not here), being pragmatic means being grounded in reality and focused on practical outcomes. it means being result-oriented and considering the consequences of your actions before you act; it means acting only after you have considered the potential consequences of all possible courses of action and have then decided which outcomes are acceptable. being pragmatic also means recognizing when achieving everything you want is impossible. and, in such situations, being pragmatic thus entails compromising to achieve a desired outcome, even if that means you don’t get everything they want. to put it in edgier terms, being pragmatic means being able to make moral sacrifices.

an idealistic person attempts the impossible. a pragmatic person recognizes when something truly is impossible.

wei wuxian is not pragmatic.

first, wei wuxian is not someone who carefully considers the consequences of his actions before he acts. in fact, he displays a startling lack of consideration for consequences. it repeatedly falls upon other characters to either try (and fail) to hold him back.

when wei wuxian punched jin zixuan for insulting first jiang yanli and then jiang cheng, did he consider that jiang fengmian and jin guangshan might then dissolve the betrothal, and that jiang yanli might have wanted to make a decision regarding that on her own? no. he just punched jin zixuan because he was mad that jin zixuan had insulted two people he loved.

when wen chao threatened mianmian, and lan wangji and jin zixuan stood up for mianmian, and then wei wuxian stood up for them by holding wen chao hostage in turn - did he consider that there might be consequences for humiliating and threatening the life of the son of a warmongering great sect leader who has already proven capable of attacking other sects? no. did he stop and think "alright, wen ruohan has already attacked the cloud recesses, which proves that he's willing to wage war against the other sects. threatening the son of a sect leader is an easy way to earn any sect leader's ire, and since i'm the first disciple of the jiang sect, this puts not just me but the entire jiang sect on wen ruohan's shitlist"? no. it would be one thing if wei wuxian weighed this possibility and then decided that rescuing an innocent girl and the people who defended her was more important was worth the risk - that would show that he considered the consequences and then made his choice. but the thought simply never entered his mind. he acted simply because he wanted to save mianmian, jin zixuan, and lan wangji from the wens; he did not think beyond that.

when wei wuxian busted the wen remnants out of the qiongqi pass labor camp, did he have a clear plan as to how he was going to weather the political fallout? did he have a plan more detailed than "live quietly in the burial mounds until everyone forgets about us"? no. when jiang cheng challenged him as to how he was going to survive the situation, he did not in fact offer anything more concrete than "we'll just wait for everyone else to forget about us." he blustered about being a once-in-a-generation genius who could accomplish the impossible, but he provided no actual plan as to how he was going to do it. this leads me to conclude that wei wuxian did not in fact have a long-term plan for handling the consequences when he went ham at the qiongqi pass camp - that, instead of weighing the consequences and then making his decision, he instead decided immediately that this was something he had to do, consequences be damned.

and then - on top of this - all of his following actions then point in the exact opposite direction of his stated plan of waiting for everyone to forget about them. because instead of doing anything to fade into the background, everything wei wuxian did instead just convinced the jianghu he was an intolerable threat.

and this was not a sustainable strategy.

one thing i really appreciate about MXTX is that she does not make the rest of the jianghu into one-dimensional villainous morons. it's quite easy for lazy writers who want a persecution plotline to have the rest of the story's society magically start hating on the protagonist for no good reason, to make every background character in the story's world a three-braincell moron. but MXTX is not that author. it speaks to MXTX's skill as an author that, from the perspective of the rest of the jianghu, fearing wei wuxian as a mortal threat was an entirely reasonable conclusion for them to come to.

first, the gentry's most recent direct interaction with wei wuxian during this time period is him threatening to kill all of them. when jin zixun doesn't give him the information he wants, wei wuxian straight up says: "if i want to kill everyone here, who can stop me? who dares stop me?" this is a threat! and - surprise - threatening to kill people naturally makes people think that you want to kill them! 

next, wei wuxian refined wen ning's dead body into the first sentient fierce corpse in history, and also the strongest fierce corpse in living memory - and then took wen ning with him on night-hunts. that's where the reputation of "the yiling patriarch and his ghost general" comes from. this very naturally made the rest of society fear him even more, because now the guy who has just recently threatened to kill you has demonstrated even more of the power to easily do so! the unparalleled power to do so, which no one else possesses and it would be very hard for anyone else to counter! add in the fact that wei wuxian's activities were also attracting prospective disciples - people gathering outside the burial mounds because they wanted to learn demonic cultivation - and naturally the public is even more frightened, because now it looks like the guy who threatened to kill all of you is also gathering the political force to do so!

the public is incorrect about wei wuxian's intentions, of course. but what does wei wuxian do to correct these misconceptions? to rehabilitate his public image, because now his public image has the life of not just himself but also all the wen remnants under his protection riding on it? to prove to the public that he isn't an active threat to their lives - that he does not seek to murder them all in their beds - that it is safe for them to allow him to live, and that they can in fact survive if they don't kill him?

nothing.

it would be one thing if the story mentioned how wei wuxian tried to correct the malicious rumors about himself and failed. but that is not what happened. what happened is that wei wuxian sat on his corpse mountain and let everyone else say what they wanted to say. and when he left his corpse mountain, it was to bring his one-of-a-kind unparalleled sentient fierce corpse with him on night-hunts, which of course just fanned the flames of the rumors instead. he doesn't even tell the prospective pupils camped on his front door to fuck off - he just sneaks in through the back door.

this is not pragmatic behavior. though you can argue that wei wuxian's strategy here was to become so powerful and so scary that no one would dare try to fight him, anyone with a brain can tell you that this is not a sustainable solution in the long-term. first, if you want to use threats to keep someone from attacking you, you also need to promise stability - you need to give people the reassurance that if they don't start shit with you, then you'll leave them alone too. if you drive the "threat" factor too high, as wei wuxian did, you instead end up convincing people that if they do nothing you'll kill them anyways - that they have no choice but to kill you if they want to survive.

second, if you want to use threats to keep someone from attacking you, you also need to prepare for the inevitability that, if someone does end up getting hurt, everyone will blame you first and no one will want to hear your side of the story. after all, if someone gets hurt, then the first suspect everyone looks towards will be the guy who's been consistently saying "i'm strong enough to hurt you! i'm strong enough to hurt you! don't start shit with me because i'm strong enough to end you!" for the past few months. this is basic common sense. and yes, the society of MDZS is unfair - wei wuxian deserved a proper trial and investigation after the death of jin zixuan. but the fact that society is unfair is something a pragmatic person would have recognized and planned for.

wei wuxian did not recognize and plan for this reality. even after he accidentally kills jin zixuan, wei wuxian still insists that if only the jianghu investigates jin zixun's hundred holes curse, they'll see that wei wuxian didn't cast the hundred holes curse, they'll see that there was more scheming going on, etc etc. wen qing has to directly spell out for him that, at this point, society no longer cares about the truth of the matter. it seems that wei wuxian was actually oddly idealistic about the true nature of his society all the way until the very end.

all of this leads me to conclude that, when wei wuxian busted the wen remnants out of the qiongqi pass labor camp, he did so without considering the consequences of his actions. he assumed that he could improvise and weasel his way out of this situation, as he's always done in the past with his typical genius - only this time, he was wrong.

wei wuxian acts without considering the consequences of his actions. he does not make a decision only after carefully deliberating over all of the potential outcomes - not at all. instead, he acts in the moment - not out of any rational consideration of potential outcomes, but rather because it is simply something he must do. this by definition makes him a deeply unpragmatic person.

to put it into more familiar terms, for wei wuxian, the righteousness of an action comes not from its consequences, but are rather inherent to the action itself. even if he were doomed to fail, he could not give up on the wen remnants.

second, at critical junctures, wei wuxian is unable to make moral sacrifices. to be pragmatic is to know when you have to sacrifice: to know when, in order to achieve the most inalienable of your goals, you have to give up on some of your other goals. this is something wei wuxian is consistently unable to do.

of course, when it comes to his own wellbeing, wei wuxian is all too willing to sacrifice. he'll carve out any number of his internal organs to save those he loves. but this honestly speaks less to wei wuxian's moral framework and more to his lack of self-worth from a troubled upbringing.

because, when it comes to any moral cause, wei wuxian is entirely unable to sacrifice anything, even if being unable to sacrifice entails more negative consequences. wei wuxian could not sacrifice mianmian, jin zixuan, and lan wangji to wen chao and his goons, so he took action and took wen chao hostage himself. to sit back and do nothing as wen chao threatened the lives of those three was simply unthinkable for him - even if it meant taking a course of action that put yunmeng jiang in danger.

wei wuxian's relationship with jiang cheng deteriorated because jiang cheng did not know about the golden core transfer: because jiang cheng did not know that wei wuxian could no longer cultivate, from jiang cheng's point of view, it looked like wei wuxian was just refusing to help out and fulfill his promises for kicks. wei wuxian could have made things a lot easier for himself and also any wen remnants he chose to rescue had he simply told jiang cheng the truth - but he knew that finding out the truth of the golden core transfer would make jiang cheng miserable, and [jiang cheng's happiness] was not something he was willing to sacrifice.

wei wuxian's single most prominent moral decision is his refusal to allow the wen remnants to be sacrificed. anyone with a shred of political sense had to know that rescuing the wen remnants and then protecting them would be near impossible - that it entails making an enemy of the jin, and due to the jins' power, the entire jianghu. wei wuxian himself knew this; he is no moron. wei wuxian also had no long-term plan, no allies, and significantly less power than the rest of the world believed. yet, despite this all, he acted anyways, because he could not let the wen remnants be sacrificed.

the wen remnants wei wuxian rescued from the qiongqi pass labor camp included both regular civilians and cultivators. perhaps wei wuxian could have negotiated a proper release for the non-cultivating civilians, such as granny wen and a-yuan, had he chosen to give up on the cultivators. but - the question of whether this would have worked or not aside - this was not a sacrifice wei wuxian would be willing to make.

nor could wei wuxian sacrifice the safety of yunmeng jiang. i am firmly of the belief that, had yunmeng jiang formally stood by wei wuxian's side after wei wuxian attacked the jin-run labor camp, lanling jin would have eventually declared war on yunmeng jiang, and yunmeng jiang's would inevitably be destroyed. both wei wuxian and jiang cheng understood this as well - which is why wei wuxian told jiang cheng to let him go.

(you can argue - successfully - that wei wuxian did in fact sacrifice [his obligations to yunmeng jiang and his promise to jiang cheng] by leaving yunmeng jiang to protect the wen remnants. this is true. but i think that - from wei wuxian's point of view - this was not much of a sacrifice, because due to wei wuxian lacking a golden core, he already viewed himself as mostly useless to yunmeng jiang. so him leaving - in his view - is not really that much of a loss for yunmeng jiang.)

wei wuxian promised wen qing that he would return wen ning's consciousness to his corpse. when wei wuxian made this promise, he had no idea if he could actually pull it off or not. but then he did - and, in the process, created the most dangerous weapon the jianghu had seen in living memory. wen ning specifically, or moreso wei wuxian's inability to control him, leads to so much of wei wuxian's eventual downfall: wei wuxian loses control of wen ning and accidentally kills jin zixuan; when wen ning goes to turn himself in at jinlintai, he ends up going berserk again and killing another 10-20 jin and lan cultivators, which leads to the nightless city pledge conference. frankly, wei wuxian could have avoided a lot of trouble - or at the very least, a lot of the public's fear - had he not raised wen ning from the dead. it's not like he'd be completely defenseless without wen ning, either. but wei wuxian promised wen qing he would resurrect wen ning - and he could not sacrifice his promise to wen qing because of what wen qing had already done for him.

a pragmatic person is able to make sacrifices, including moral ones. at the very least, a pragmatic person recognizes when sacrifice is inevitable, when all paths lead to something being lost. a pragmatic person, put in the trolley problem, would recognize that there were only two options and that both options involve sacrifice: either he must kill one person, or he must allow five people to die. there is no path forwards in which all six people live.

wei wuxian is unable to make moral sacrifices. he clings on to all of these moral causes, all of these promises and obligations, and it is precisely because he attempts to hold onto all of them that he ends up losing everything. to reuse the previous example, wei wuxian in the trolley problem tried to save all six people because he could not accept any of the sacrifices made inevitable by the trolley problem.

to put this all together - wei wuxian is not a pragmatic person. he makes decisions with his gut, not his head - he does not consider the consequences of his actions before he acts. nor is wei wuxian able to make sacrifices - even necessary ones in order to avoid greater tragedies.

but. none of this means that wei wuxian is not a deeply heroic person. rather, to do what you believe to be righteous and attempt to live up to your ideals despite the consequences is exactly what MXTX lauds as moral. and to be unable to make a moral sacrifice when everyone else in your society easily does so is in fact deeply heroic.

it is precisely because wei wuxian is not pragmatic that MXTX declares him a hero.

some people, including myself, favor a moral framework that centers pragmatism and reason as virtues. to us, the ideal moral character is someone who makes decisions based on reason and not emotion, who considers the potential consequences of every course of action before making a decision, and who then, based on these inferred future consequences, uses reason to deduce which of all of the possible outcomes is the most preferable.

but this does not in fact describe wei wuxian, nor is this how wei wuxian views ethics. and to be honest, i don't think this is how MXTX views ethics either.

in all three of her stories, MXTX repeatedly comes down harder on the characters who make pragmatic decisions, the characters who are willing to sacrifice. in fact, killing sunshot soldiers while acting as wen ruohan's spy, and then killing nie mingjue's men in order to ensure a chance at killing wen ruohan and saving nie mingjue, was the pragmatic thing for meng yao to do, because that was the least bloody path forwards towards a sunshot victory over qishan wen. in fact, cutting ties with wei wuxian after he attacked the jin-run qiongqi pass labor camp was the pragmatic thing for jiang cheng to do, because it was the only path forward that did not put yunmeng jiang, his first and foremost responsibility, in the line of fire. and yet (though the situation is less clear with jin guangyao), MDZS as a narrative criticizes both jin guangyao and jiang cheng for these decisions - because, to MDZS, righteousness does not lie in pragmatism.

(this is a statement i personally disagree with. but we are here to discuss what MDZS wants to say about pragmatism and righteousness, not what i want to say about pragmatism and righteousness.)

by contrast, the one single act for which deeply controversial jiang cheng is ultimately lauded for in the narrative is also his single least pragmatic, most emotional act. the one single act of jiang cheng's that MDZS does not criticize is when, after the fall of lotus pier, jiang cheng ran out from his hiding spot to distract the wen soldiers from seeing wei wuxian. from a filial, duty-based point of view, this was a deeply stupid and unpragmatic course of action: jiang cheng's first and foremost duty, as the sole surviving jiang and new sect leader jiang, was to survive, rebuild his sect, and avenge his parents. from a consequentialist point of view, this impulsive choice is also what led to the domino-fall of tragedy that followed, since jiang cheng then got captured and had his golden core melted, which then led to everything else. yet this stupid, unpragmatic, and impulsive decision is ultimately the one act MDZS considers to be jiang cheng's single most heroic.

the key as to what MDZS considers to be heroic, what it considers to be righteous, lies in the jiang family motto: 明知不可而为之, attempt the impossible. this line, taken from the analects of confucius, can be considered to be a deeply deontological ideal. i find this twitter thread (warning to my followers: does kind of dunk on JC) to be rather helpful in elucidating this line's meaning. 

to attempt the impossible, to try what shouldn't be tried. "ask yourself not whether you can do it, but whether you should...consider not the result but rather the journey - have a clear conscience regardless of outcome." in other words, what matters is less whether you succeeded or failed, or what sort of outcome your actions brought about - what matters is that you tried. what matters is that, in the face of overwhelming odds, you tried to do what you think is right. and even if you end up failing - even if everyone you sought to protect ended up dying - the fact that you tried still has moral weight.

this is why it was righteous of wei wuxian to save the wen remnants - even though the ultimate consequences of that decision were overall negative, even though everyone wei wuxian tried to protect died. in fact, if wei wuxian had died immediately - if he had been shot down by jin archers at the qiongqi pass labor camp the moment he came within their range - if he had died before any wen in the labor camp realized someone wanted to save him - he would still be a righteous person. because, for MDZS, what makes an action righteous is not its consequences. for MDZS, what makes a person righteous is not what impact their actions have on the world, but rather that they have the sort of moral character that leads them to never give up on their ideals.

wei wuxian does not consider the consequences of his actions before he acts. or, should i say - wei wuxian makes decisions despite their consequences, because despite the consequences there are simply some moral causes he simply cannot give up on. wei wuxian did not save the wen remnants because it was pragmatic to do so. it was in fact deeply unpragmatic to do so. no - wei wuxian saved the wen remnants without a concrete long-term plan, without having thought through anything beforehand, with the knowledge of how weak he was in reality - because he could not give up on the wen remnants, consequences be damned.

to have some moral causes you simply cannot give up on, no matter the consequences - to MXTX, is deeply heroic. in this sense, MXTX's moral philosophy is not pragmatic at all, because to be pragmatic is to be concerned with practical consequences. instead, both wei wuxian and MXTX herself are deeply idealistic, because what matters to them are ideals and principles that extend beyond consequence.

as the linked twitter thread notes, this is why MXTX waits until the very end of the book to reveal that wen yuan, now lan sizhui, lived. this is why wangxian only meet mianmian and her family at the end of the book. this is why all of the cumulative positive impacts of wei wuxian's resurrection -  jin ling forgiving wei wuxian, jin guangyao, and wen ning, for one - are kept to the end of the story: because MDZS needs to move away from the consequentialist argument. MDZS needs to establish that wei wuxian's righteousness is separate from the impact of his actions: that wei wuxian isn't righteous merely because his actions had a positive impact for which others can thank him, but rather because the actions he undertook were inherently righteous on their own. that even if none of these positive impacts existed - if wen yuan had also died, if mianmian hadn't made it - then wei wuxian's choices would still be moral.

this is also why MDZS ultimately comes down harder on characters like jiang cheng and jin guangyao, even though a more results-oriented moral framework would instead laud such characters. both jiang cheng and jin guangyao are deeply pragmatic characters: they put concrete results before abstract moral ideals, and they're willing to compromise on their ideals in order to achieve better results. i am a JC stan and a jiggy apologist because of these exact traits. but MDZS is a narrative that criticizes such pragmatism and instead holds up wei wuxian's idealism as a moral ideal - so, in order to advance its themes, the MDZS narrative ends up criticizing both jiang cheng and jin guangyao.

ultimately, this idealism - this criticism of pragmatism - lies at the heart of MDZS's themes. wei wuxian's righteousness is directly connected to the fact that he is not pragmatic. the fact that wei wuxian makes moral decisions despite the consequences, and that he is unable to sacrifice any moral cause - is all part of what makes him at once deeply unpragmatic and deeply heroic.

---

you see, the funny thing here is that i personally disagree with this theme. as i've said before, i'm a utilitarian. to me, the morality of an action does in fact arise from its consequences; to me, someone who compromises on their ideals to achieve better results is preferable to someone who adheres to all of their ideals and then loses everything. the character i consider to have had the greatest positive impact on this story's world is jin guangyao. the character i consider to have most dutifully fulfilled his obligations is jiang cheng.

therefore, i disagree with basically everything i wrote up there about "trying": i think that if you try to do the right thing, fail epically, and in the process of your failure get a bunch of other people killed as well, the fact that you failed this badly does in fact matter quite a bit. the bulk of my more haterish posts are born from this fundamental disagreement with what MDZS posits is righteousness.

however. as a reader i must recognize that [what i consider to be moral] and [what the author of this story considers to be moral] are two different things. my own moral philosophy may be heavily results-oriented, but MXTX's is much less so. therefore, regardless of what i think of wei wuxian, i conclude that MXTX ultimately intends for us to read wei wuxian as a heroic figure for the exact reasons i gave above - and that fact must then inform every analysis of MDZS i write.

[diivineray]

this show i've been watching gets me so emotional man, but this one episode about this guy who was murdered trying to do the right thing. he was fighting for the people who everyone ignores.

he was trying to do it the clean way. politicians that only talk and in the end don't do anything to help people like us

everyone was telling him he needed to play by the rules. he was going to upset people

and it made me think of jiang cheng and wei wuxian.

and its one big reason why jc haters are full of shit when they wanna hate on Jiang Cheng for why he acted the way he did. Jiang Cheng is all of us. People like Wei Wuxian, with real integrity, are rare. fuck, people on tumblr cant even do it. being a really good person like that?? it has its sacrifices and very rarely is it ever rewarding. why do you think most people AREN'T like that. even if you wanna say you are, I can find a way to show that you aren't. giving up what you love for strangers. and if you do, I'm questioning your motives because that is how rare geniuneity is in the world. people never do anything out of the goodness of their hearts.

its why people like wwx are the heroes in these stories. its why the heroes always are suffering, dying, going through the worst shit imaginable.

Wei Wuxian died in the end. and he did so trying to do good. his actions while good, had a ripple affect that hurt others also and his need to be there for the wens, i don't think he saw the hurt he was causing to the people closest to him.

its why neither side is wrong. because both sides are human. jiang cheng said if wwx did this he couldn't protect him.

you play along you're hero, but the moment you go against them you are public enemy number 1.

and look what happened.

[the-firebird69]

Julius' death scene - Head punch - Jason Takes Manhattan

His head came off recently but it might have been Jason who did it. And in between this and the incident where he lost his head and apparently it was put back on he had a fight with garth in a boxing ring and it gives a woman time to leave. He is a wise ass and created everything but he did not win or anything but Jason left and he wants to get back at him I guess so his head comes off and goes into the dumpster and it gets free attached reattached and begs a question what's going on that part of New York is Manhattan typically it's been in the area that's known for finance and the max of their experimenting on people and below and it is a legend it is backed up by an excerpt from the X-Men comic book series where a blockbuster a Mac version The kills the whole lot of the higher-ups they might have something to do with this and the timing because when he comes around Jason there's a whole bunch of them trying to get answers and stop the max

Zues Hera

That's a lot of that and it does look like one of the guys got hit in the woods by Jason recently this is several episodes away I don't think so I think it's next it's very gross it's disgusting what happened to Becca is horrifying and I haven't seen this kind of stuff for a long time it could be this computer but some people think it is. Not really sure why they would be head back and play around with her head it's kind of gross or why they would do it to Garth. It's almost like they want to reduce his income to get him to commit a crime while all these people are on trial and all these people are going to court and he says that's probably true they want to be the heroes and it's just another one of those cockneyed plans where they want to be the heroes with the hardware down below defeat the big bad Tom and everybody's tired of it he's exhausted and smart and can figure it out and we don't want to go through it everyday it's way too much it's an overload in the system and it was probably planned by JC and Mary and it seems like they might not be as activist people say people are researching it and my nephew says don't be surprised when they go around Saturn it's the dark side of the Moon around Saturn they come back out and Borg ship probably go there now that's a theory and they do find one in Star Trek I already out there and boy does that make sense and it's horrifying what they're doing and I don't know what happened here Dave was like a normal guy and Chris says it too he's hanging around never heard of this really bad stuff he would say don't do this he'll give me a fight and stuff like that it was never this complete gross stuff but really Davis in a twomb.

The Rock

There's some great observations about what's going on and really it is possibly the computer that's way out of whack and we have a bunch of them running around down here and we need to cut them off they're horrible horrible machines disgusting it's almost a joke

Olympus

I don't want to go through with it I already have the accident I'm trying to heal it and had to use the glue and I don't know what to tell you he says hyperox oxygenate and I do see that have a good reason for it and my nephew says why someone else might get ahead in life and I tell him to shut up

Garth

[starbuck]

God. Okay. Not to still be making Jesus Christ Superstar/Black Sails posts but there’s SUCH a parallel to be drawn between Pilate and Rogers in the way they’re both desperate not to be seen as villains, not because they object to committing horrific crimes against humanity which make them inherently villainous, but because they’re afraid for their reputations and how they’ll be remembered by history.

And they both mistakenly believe that they, as leaders of imperial occupying forces, should be able to control how they’re perceived within their narratives. But they CAN’T and this infuriates them.

this vs. Rogers and Madi’s convo in 4x09. Truly nothing like telling a man who is used to there being no limit to his power “you cannot control the outcome of this situation” (or, in Madi’s case “I’m not going to let you”).

[transdaughterofthesun]

So I realize that you might not want an actual answer, just shouting into the circus, but let me stand up and pull out my crayon PhD on game design.

TL:DR It feels so strikingly off in the 3D fallout games and feels neutral to good in baldurs gate due to the systems that surround it and what they are trying to accomplish.

With that out of the way let's start with a simple question, why did the original crpgs use this system? Simple answer, it was used to emulate tabletop rpgs. This might be obvious to anyone familiar with tabletop games, but it's always someone's first time learning something so it's important to set up the ground work. The games by no means were meant to replace tabletop games, but were most likely just a means of visualizing campaigns for their players, and serve as an introduction to both dnd and video games. For those into video games but not tabletop, these were the games that would show why people liked tabletop games and the freedom that comes with it. For tabletop players who didn't play video games, this was a great way to be introduced to the medium and ease of use, while still retaining what they appreciated about tabletop.

Personally, and most likely incorrectly, I would liken these games to early immersive sims. A very bare bones version of it. Now I say early but they are trying to be two different things. Let's look at Deus Ex, blessed be thy game, now tho to see where they differ, and yes I'll be referring to this when bringing fallout 3 up later. Deus Ex puts you in the shows of JC Denton. A very customizable JC Denton, enough so that very few Dentons will ever look alike, but it's still just Denton. You will only ever be playing as him, so right away some choices regarding game design are already made based on his personality. Now I have yet to play the game, heresy I know, but Denton will never pilot a helicopter. He can't lug around 10 barrels of oil in his pockets and toss them at enemies. He has a limited skill set. A large one, but limited. But in exchange you get precise control of the skills the games allow you to use. Think shooting and melee. You control your skill level in these, because that is what was deemed as fun.

Now compare that to Baldurs Gate 1. Not only are you not controlling one character, you're controlling up to 6, not including summons, you aren't controlling someone who has been trained in 50 different ways to shoot someone. You have to build up your skills to the point where dice checks are naught but minor annoyances. That's the big difference in my opinion. In games like Deus Ex you are the hero, you are the special in this world. In Crpgs, often times you start as no one, learning to do things, and like in the real world, fucking up while doing those things. Nobody who has ever learned a skill preforms it flawlessly all the time. You are just someone in this world. You could be important, but you could also end up a stain on the world.

So now what does fallout 3 do that makes this feel so wrong. Simply put, it tries to combine the two experiences into one, without understanding that they don't really mix. Essentially what fallout is saying in the story is: "You are the special, you are the key to this world, all the choices are yours, you are more then human." The speech check meanwhile says: "You are no one and you can and will say the wrong thing at times because you are human." Now one or the other systems by themselves? Great. But it creates such a distinct sense of cognitive dissonance when combined that it just stands out.

New Vegas tho fixes this by implementing a system that doesn't say: "You are no one." Instead it says: "Sorry bud you just aren't charismatic." Or: "Congrats special, you made it, here's your reward for being so special!" It celebrates the fact that you are special.

Now I could explain Baldurs Gate 3, but I would just redirect you to the segment for Baldurs Gate 1.

Thanks for reading and sorry for any spelling or grammer shit. I is tired.

Hey remember when Fallout 3 had percentage chances on speech checks and that just meant players would save scum every speech check until they got it and then in Fallout New Vegas they changed it so it not only made it a hard Yes or No based on how high your speech skill was but also added new dialogue options that would only succeed if your character had the right perks and everyone agreed that system was better

Why is it possible for my baldurs gate character who has 16 charisma and a proficiency in deception to fail a deception check

[mxtxfanatic]

I’m sorry, but yeah, the people who stan Jiang Cheng by saying he’s actually a good, respectable, or at least powerful person are absolutely hilarious. Like, I used to think that he was at least more of a threat than he was before I read the novel, but after? What am I supposed to like about a character who:

1) throws his weight around as “the man who killed the Yiling Patriarch,” only to told as a reader that that was a lie and he only kills weak people who remind him of Wei Wuxian,

2) tries to intimidate wwx on multiple occasions but is masterfully outmaneuvered each time except when wwx’s phobia or lan wangji’s reputation are involved,

3) was given a huge chance to prove that he “could” (theoretically) kill the Yiling Patriarch like he’s already being praised for doing, but STILL HESITATES because he’s a follower at heart and wants to see what everyone else is gonna do first?

But you know, my favorite scene involving him that drives all this home is how he had a whole breakdown, snot-crying and all, during a hostage situation in which he had shown up like he was gonna be the hero! Threw open the temple door, whip blazing, and gained the upper hand on Jin Guangyao who notoriously could not fight, only to get distracted! And stabbed! In like 5 minutes! And then, he turns to crying about how he should have had every right to hate wwx except now he knows he doesn’t! And tries to make this wwx’s fault! Meanwhile, wwx is reacting like the poor unfortunate soul who got trapped in the breakroom playing emotional support for the one coworker nobody likes. Y’all talk about wwx’s confession being awkward, meanwhile mans was having a whole crying fit about how everyone thinks he’s an idiot now. In the middle of a hostage situation. Like damn, who really was holding everyone hostage at that point?

Anyways, that shit was mad funny and cemented jc as a giant manbaby in my head. Literally what is there to like except imagining him getting bullied by the actual cool kids of the story? The very definition of pathetic.

[grewlikefancyflowers]

‘Intrusion’ extra, what it says about Jiang Cheng’s role in MDZS, and how Wei Wuxian looks back on his past with the Jiangs

I said back in like June that I’d write meta on this and then put it off for a few months, oops! Here we are, finally!

First things first, both the ‘Intrusion’ and ‘Iron Hook’ extras are not just silly romps featuring married wangxian and fanservice, as some people seem to believe?? I’d say both of them clear up pretty neatly, for those that are still confused, points of contention in the fandom - such as Wei Wuxian’s heroism, and Jiang Cheng’s role as an antagonist. Specifically, if his actions were justified or sympathetic, and if he was punished unfairly by the narrative.

The first and most obvious statement made in ‘Intrusion’ is the parallel between the story of Young Master Qin (YMQ), and JC and WWX’s youths. I’ll summarise quickly the relationship between YMQ and the fierce corpse that has been bothering him.

They grew up together in YMQ’s grandmother’s house, since they were a similar age they played together

The fierce corpse (FC) was a servant in YMQ’s grandmother’s household

The grandmother took a liking to FC, and he was in some ways treated less like a servant, and more like a member of their clan, and was allowed to attend school with the other boys

YMQ specifically notes that his grandmother used to praise FC a lot

YMQ describes a story at the school in which someone answered a question, and FC incorrectly claimed he answered wrongly. When FC pushed the matter, the other students became annoyed and drove him out of the class

It is very heavily implied (to the point where ‘implied’ isn’t really the right word) that ‘someone’ was YMQ, that he had actually answered the question wrongly, and that he felt shown up by someone he felt should be below him proving so, and that he led the other boys in driving FC away

FC left the school and didn’t attend again

I probably don’t need to lay out where the similarities are…?

In response to YMQ’s story, Wei Wuxian (rhetorically) says this - ‘“Regarding the solution to that problem, in the end, who was right and who was wrong?”’

Aside from just exposing the kind of person YMQ is, in reference to a story wherein ‘FC’ is clearly a stand in for WWX, and YMQ for JC, MXTX’s decision to highlight specifically that it was FC that had the right solution to the problem is not insignificant. Nor how she specifies that he was the instigator of FC’s expulsion, while hiding behind the mob mentality of the other students.

Another interesting detail is that YMQ deliberately obscures the truth throughout the chapter, because despite his refusal to acknowledge it, possibly even to himself, he knows that between him and FC he is the one in the wrong. Similarly, JC obscures the truth about WWX, to the wider cultivation world during the period of WWX’s ‘downfall,’ (Ch.73) but also, more importantly, to JL after WWX’s death. JL believes that WWX ordered WN to kill both JZX and JYL (Ch.42). Of course, if JC did not have a guilty conscience, he would not feel it necessary to lie about these things. Or rather, convince himself that they are true, as he still blames WWX for the deaths of his parents’ and JYL and the end of the story (Ch.102).

YMQ’s attitude about servants is bad enough that it upsets Sizhui quite a lot, and shortly after their interaction with him, we have this exchange between LSZ and Wangxian.

‘Lan SiZhui thought about it, “I do not know either.” He responded with honesty, “He never did anything truly evil, but perhaps I find it difficult to deal with people of such character. I do not particularly like the tone with which he mentioned the word ‘servant’…”

He paused at this point. Wei WuXian was oblivious to it, “Typical, typical. Most of the people in this world looks down upon servants. Servants sometimes even look down upon themselves… Why are you two looking at me like that?”

Halfway through, he interrupted, not knowing whether to laugh or frown, “Stop—is there a misunderstanding here? How could I compare? Lotus Pier isn’t the usual household, after all. I’ve beaten Jiang Cheng up way more times than he’s ever beaten me!”

Lan WangJi didn’t say anything, but instead gave him a silent hug. Wei WuXian couldn’t help but smiled. He hugged back, stroking Lan WangJi’s back a couple of times. Lan SiZhui coughed. Seeing how confident Wei WuXian looked, not at all sensitive to the word ‘servant’, he was finally at ease.’

There’s a lot going on here...

Firstly, WWX definitely does not think badly of himself because his father was a servant, because WWX doesn’t think badly of servants. It is also true that Lotus Pier wasn’t so strict with hierarchy as other sects (Ch.51, Ch.71), and that WWX and JC sometimes playfully fought on equal terms in their youths. But WWX was also very clearly treated badly in the Jiang household due to his status, notably by YZY (Ch.51, Ch.56, Ch.57, Lotus Seed Pod extra), JC does also repeatedly enact real physical violence against WWX, that he simply brushes off (Ch.56, Ch.59). You could argue that the example from Ch.59 is under extenuating circumstances and therefore should not count, but the same excuse cannot apply to Ch.56.

Knowing this, Lan Wangji’s response to this, to hug WWX, does not feel casual at all. Instead it comes across as if he is offering comfort, which WWX accepts.

Finally, this exchange finishes with ‘Seeing how confident Wei WuXian looked, not at all sensitive to the word ‘servant’, he [LSZ] was finally at ease.’ To me, this seems to suggest that the entire purpose of this was not at all reader directed exposition about how good and equal the Jiang household was, but rather a WWX-typical veneer meant to appease LSZ’s concerns (taking a moment to quietly fangirl about how good MXTX is at ‘show, don’t tell’). Also suggests that WWX is aware on some level that he was treated badly, and LWJ is too - presumably, it is something that they have spoken about.

Continuing with the story of YMQ and FC…

YMQ returns to his home village as an adult wearing a jade pendant that belonged to his now deceased grandmother

FC asks to borrow it, YMQ allows it, thinking FC is missing his grandmother

FC returns telling him he has lost the pendant, YMQ thinks he has actually sold it, and has him beaten, it is very heavily implied that he breaks his leg

In the present, YMQ admits that he doesn’t actually think FC would have gone so far as to sell something of his grandmother’s

This is reflective of JC’s attitude towards WWX throughout his life, with regards to how he frequently comes to the worst conclusions about him, without having any real evidence, and lashes out at him for it. I spoke about this a bit before here. Most notable example is probably during their conversation in the demon-slaughtering cave wherein they discuss WWX’s defection, and JC decides that WWX is acting carelessly and playing the hero, though admits himself that WWX is following the Jiang Sect’s teachings, then declares WWX an enemy of the cultivation world behind his back.

The ambiguity of FC’s death, and YMQ’s role in it discussed in part 3 of the extra is referencing WWX’s own death, and JC’s role in it. In the end the conclusion is that whether or not YMQ was responsible, FC did not hold him to it.

In the end, FC is content to simply throw some fruit, and punch YMQ in the face in vengeance for his death, and even goes out of his way to avoid hurting LSZ when he is fighting him. He returns the jade pendant, that he really did lose and not steal, and goes back to resting peacefully.

WWX, LWJ, and LSZ’s views on YMQ’s fate are as follows

‘Lan WangJi gently tugged Lil’ Apple’s rein, his voice calm, “He was fortunate.”

Wei WuXian agreed, “Indeed. Young Master Qin has got quite the luck.”

After some time, Lan SiZhui finally couldn’t hold his words back any longer. Sincerely, he spoke, “But I still feel that only one punch might be a bit insufficient…”’

JC didn’t even get a punch to the face. I’d say he got off very lightly indeed.

[plan-d-to-i]

I will just leave it here for people to analyze this "wonderful" takes from definitely a JC stan who pretended to be neutral and understood the novel. I simply have a debate with this person because this person made a nonsensical statement that "people disliked JC are mostly from Western culture" (this person's debates were full of logic fallacy and gaslight also).

But this bullshit "character analysis" take the cake of being so wrong and disingenuous as this person claimed to know what JC was in the novel. The part about Jiangs ancestor just made me cry so bad for such asinine and retard takes that literally spitted on the portray of Jianghu heroes and moral standards in Chinese cultures.

And the part about "racism", holy fuck, I was just at loss as I thought I was talking to an alt-righter.

Anyone who is ridiculous enough to write "he still mourned him and kept chenqing" when the story lit tells us he hated him, killed him, spent the next 13 years trying to kill him again, and only kept Chenqing as bait should really keep their thoughts on literature to themselves until they master at least a basic level of reading comprehension.

"Why do you think WWX was ok with jc "abandoning" him? not just bc of his self-sacrificing tendencies" LOL not one correct thing in this entire homage to idiocy. People who see WWX's classic heroic actions as "self sacrificing tendencies"- 🤡. And who said WWX was ok with jc abandoning him? What options did he have? Send elderly people, women and a child to their death? Sure someone as morally defunct as jc would see that as an option, but that's not an option to WWX and WWX understood what jc was like. WWX wanted to maintain the connection with YunmengJiang but jc's "aid" was that he would kill Wen Ning for him.

"Jiang Cheng, “You really intend on stationing yourself here in the long run? Can people even live in such a damned place?”

Wei WuXian, “I lived three months in here.”

After a moment of silence, Jiang Cheng asked, “You’re not coming back to Lotus Pier?”

Wei WuXian replied in a relaxed tone, “Yunmeng is so close to Yiling. I’ll sneak back whenever I feel like it.”

Jiang Cheng snorted, “You wish.”

and

"Jiang Cheng, “You burn this corpse right now and return to them all these leftovers of the Wen Sect. That’s the only way to make the subject die!” As he spoke, he raised his sword again, preparing to attack."

Idk how these people aren't embarrassed to stage these moronic arguments like: "jc was right enabling and actively playing a part in the death of innocent ppl and in dumping and stabbing WWX in the back. Being a read the room sheep is good acTuaLLy. >:-/ Have you never livEd in a soCiety?". Have you?

[raandim-emortal]

YZY pisses me off 😤 definitely from how she viewed and treated WWX but also her she treated others. But, I’ll mostly focus on her treatment of her own son- a person she cared for:

The way she throws fits in front of all of them. Repeatedly telling them to quit treating WWX with any amount of kindness because they’re his “masters”. Accusing WWX of secretly being JFMs child in front of all of them. Making JC feel bad-by in front of others -telling him that WWX is more talented and more intelligent than him even though WWX is only the son of a servant AND that he should be ashamed of that! These things only serve to fuel JCs inferiority complex and further complicate his feelings towards this person he views and always has viewed as a brother.

JC was a child who had a really cool and talented slightly older brother. He loved him, looked up to him, and worried for him and he was made to feel bad about it. He was a child who just wanted to have fun and make his parent’s proud and he was made to feel as though he would never be enough because of the presence of said cool older brother.

She also berates JFMs different treatment of WWX and JC and while I do think there’s a little merit to that and that he could’ve done a LOT more to connect with his son and do not believe he was a “good” father, this is about YZY. She is a big negative influence on how they interact with each other. She makes sure JC feels that his father prefers another child. Makes sure he thinks his father doesn’t like him because he’s her son. YZY also makes sure he doesn’t have the freedom to play around like WWX or even like the other disciples. And when he does, he’s often berated for it. She makes it clear the right choice in a difficult situation is always to put your head down and stay out of things that don’t concern you specifically. She purposefully drives a wedge between him and the motto of the Jiang clan which serves to drive a wedge between both JC and his father as well as between JC and WWX. YZY accuses JFM of not treating his own son well bc JC does not embody the motto of his clan but if we’re being honest, YZY will not let him. JC does not know how to embody the Jiang clan motto bc it goes against his mother’s rules and teachings and punishments. YZY has spent most of his life instilling him with value’s that directly opposed his fathers. WWX on the other hand DOES embody these ideals despite her punishments and berating. He is also praised by JFM for it which is also used to create friction between the three of them.

Some of the last things YZY does before she dies is beat WWX with Zidian and make it perfectly clear that everything that happened to them was his fault alone because he couldn’t just accept the abuse of others and he also didn’t die in that cave. This serves to further enhance JCs views that WWX simply can’t help but play the hero by martyring himself for others. By involving himself in things that don’t directly concern him and by going against the clans- even when he (and others) know that WWX is right -and it ultimately drives them apart as his admiration for his brother is twisted in a way that cannot simply be untangled like it had in the past.

YZY is a petty, angry, hateful, spiteful, and selfish person and she lived her life making it everyone else’s problem. Her resentment is so strong that it continues to be fueled through her son well after her death.

And what upsets me most about her character, is that people like her 1000% exist.

Some idiots claiming YZYs abusive actions were justified because of the historical and cultural setting of MDZS... Because I used this very argument against one of their little friends and their claims WWX's revenge and JGYs are similar, and if WWX could be "excused" so could JGYs.

Firstly, there's a fine line between discipline and unnecessary cruelty. What YZY does crosses that line unequivocally. She does this not only physically, but mentally. She wears him down with lashing of both vicious tongue and cracking whip. Yes, discipline is very much part of that era, but singling out one child specifically and beating them for reasons that are far from punishable is abuse no matter what. Let's not forget WWXs back was covered in scares, both new and old. These are marks from a high-class spiritual weapon! This is not an official method used for disciplinary purposes.

And the major thing here is, it's not JUST the setting that shows us how the MDZS universe works, but MXTXs worldbuilding and the examples of what is expected culturally in her fiction. The Yi City arc shows us how revenge works in her universe - similar to the era. She also shows us what is acceptable punishment and how such things are carried out in the Cloud Recesses arc - again, somewhat similar to the era. These are shown to the reader so we understand the clear boundaries world and the rules MXTX has set in place in her fic.

It really is all there in black and white if you'd just actually read 🤣