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blackfemmecharacterdependency · 4 years ago

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14. Exposing the Void Pt. 2

So, okay... This chapter kinda fucked me up and I rush edited because like... I just want to get past this whole thing. I think it’s important to note that outside of 10 episodes, the concepts we were given in I.T. would be drawn out a little longer and take more time to impact the characters and also for them to deal with and go through. So, as I warned previously, rough content ahead.

Word count 5331 Trigger warnings: Gas lighting,revenge porn, slut shaming, mental abuse,ableist terminology,violence

It couldn't really just be in her head, right? Had the opinions of strangers made her THAT far away from reality? Simon definitely “liked” every single comment where someone was being mean to her this morning… but by the time she asked him about it, none of the comments were liked. She knew she didn't imagine it. It happened for a few days before she flat out asked, "Are you fuckin' with me, Dude?"

"What do you mean?"

"With this liking the comments thing you've been doing, then undoing?" He stared at her like he was worried about her. "It's not funny. If you keep doing that, I'm gonna block you."

He furrowed his eyebrows and rolled his eyes, turning away from her. "Maybe you need to take a break from social media. It's getting to you."

It wasn't "getting to" her! HE was getting to her. Playing these games that she was unsure of why he wanted to mess with her like that. He knew she was sensitive about criticisms. To like the comments? Then unlike them later, so she felt crazy?? Wait… Grace… this is Simon. Why would he do that to you? Maybe you DO need to take a break from social media.

Her parents seemed as happy as she would expect about her wanting to go to college to get more pulp for her performance arts. They weren't easily excited, so their small approval was enough for her.

But… for whatever reason… Simon had talked to them about her issues with the Internet and after a long lecture about how they didn’t raise her to be weak and insecure, she was really at her wits end with Simon. She didn’t say it, but she was pretty irritated about it, to the point that she found herself snapping at him over things, then regretting it when he looked taken aback and hurt. Sometimes, she would see a flicker of anger and expect him to explode, so that they could finally just have their fight and be done with it… but he would always just turn off his reaction, which was probably something that he learned from her, but boy was it infuriating for her to go through.

If SHE fussed after he had diffused things, then she knew that she would be being a bitch. So, she simply choked down the anger and got over it after a little while. It’s just that those moments were frequent enough that it soon felt better to not even speak to Simon at all.

She signed up for talent shows and amateur night spots. She went on auditions for local productions. She threw herself into recitals and built her resume. She shut Simon out and focused on her skills for the future. Despite the fact that Simon was equally busy, she found that he managed to always be at her house whenever he wasn’t busy. They weren’t even kicking it as much. Usually, he was with her parents.

She would come home and chime, “I’m home!” And Simon would say, “Welcome home!” from another room. At first, she would go to greet him, give him a kiss, and speak to her parents, but closer to spring, she didn’t even announce whenever she got in. She came in, listened to see if she heard his voice in the house (usually did), and she would go to her room and start working on whatever music project she was into.

Followers were asking her for new content, but she’d always just say, “I’m working on something.” She would see the chats though - the sorrow and fear of fans that the haters had scared her away from the industry. She would turn on Summer Walker, Ari Lennox, Cleo Sol, Quin, Sza… She would let them sing comfort and confidence into her while she got washed up and set up to work. She would know that she was influenced by their work, but try not to just copy any of them. Plus, she added much more bass to anything that she made. She practiced rapping sometimes, but she often felt silly and knew that she would sound like a Kids Bop album if she actually tried to record her rapping. But, in certain songs, she was able to get away with distorting her voice a little and making portions of the rap match with the songs.

She liked to experiment with various styles, make beats, have a vibey sound that you could also shake to. “Black hippy girl with funk and soul, that’s mellow, but you can groove to it,” was how she tried to describe her work. There wasn’t a genre that really captured it well.

She worked on covers of songs, and made videos like Todrick Hall did, where she put together a cover singing multiple parts… but she didn’t want to share them and be accused of copying. She was copying, but only to see how her own would be. She rented studio time to do demos.

She came out of the studio one night, mentally preparing to go home and see Simon there with her parents, but he was outside when she came out. It startled her, but she smiled and said, “Hey… didn’t expect to see you here!”

“Doesn’t seem like you ever expect to see me,” he said, emotionless.

“Yeah. You’re usually SUPER BUSY with my parents,” she said bitterly, but cheerfully.

“Are you still mad that I told them about your Internet problems?”

“No. I just think it's weird how much time you spend around them. They’re my parents and I don’t even spend that much time around them.” He sighed, annoyed. “What are you doing here?” she asked.

“This is the third night that you’ve been here and left roughly at the same time. If anybody is watching you, they might know your pattern. You should be more careful. You’ll make it easy for enemies to hurt you.” It was a weird thing to say, she had to admit. It creeped her out. His tone and the suggestion, BUT, it also was Simon, who was naturally paranoid, protective, and proactive. So, she figured that he was in worried boyfriend mode and got into the car with him.

Simon wasn’t around her parents as much for a few days. She had some peace, but also had time to think about how much she missed him. She even beat herself up a little and reminded herself that she KNEW this would happen. This was why she didn’t want them to date in the first place. It had ruined their friendship!

She texted him: Hey. I miss you.

Simon: Just a few days ago you didn’t even want to say hi when you came home.

Grace: I mean… I miss you being my friend. We’re where I was afraid we’d be if we dated.

Simon:... Do you want to break up with me???

Simon: Because a text isn’t a nice way to do that.

Simon: And this is a really bad time.

Simon: DO YOU WANT TO BREAK UP WITH ME?

Grace: No. I just want my friend back.

Simon: I want my friend back too. But, you’re the one who changed, Grace. Not me.

Grace: I thought all of my changes were positive, though. So… why didn’t they bring us closer together?

Simon: (Read)

She didn’t hear back from him until the middle of the night, when her phone rang, but she missed his calls. She usually was a pretty heavy sleeper, and she took melatonin, because she could never seem to go to bed at night. 17 missed calls by morning and she called him back first thing. “Simon? Is everything okay?”

Simon looked at his bloodied knuckles and lied, “Yeah. Sorry I called so much last night. I figured you’d be asleep, but I just… needed my friend.”

“What happened?”

“I got into a fight with my dad.”

“He’s home? What was the fight about?”

“I accidentally knocked something down in his workroom and I never picked it up. Listen, I know that you hate me spending time around your parents, but could I crash there a few nights?”

“Yes! Of course!”

“Thanks.” he hung up and looked at his father, who was drunk and passed out, his face pounded in from Simon’s fists. He might be stuck on that couch for a while. He might not even remember the fight that they had the previous night. But, Simon made sure to let out every portion of rage that he ever had towards the man. Surprisingly, it gave him clarity on some things. He had been struggling with whether or not he intended to destroy Grace. She seemed to be coming around in her texts last night. Maybe… he could forgive her. Maybe they could make things work. Even if he couldn’t have her, maybe he could have his friend back. He was going to spend a few night there and try to assess everything.

Thursday through Sunday bliss for Grace. By Monday, as she sat in class, sniffling, her tissues now wet beyond repair, she still couldn’t wrap her head around what had happened. Simon said that he must’ve left his web cam going from when he was practicing his arguments for an upcoming debate. It was important, because they were nearing the end of the school year and this one one of the final debates.

She hadn’t even planned on anything happening between them, but they had been doing so horribly lately and she wanted, more than anything to just feel like she was on his good side again. Hell, sex wasn’t the worst thing a person could do and she had done far more for Simon in her life. So, though it took her a moment to settle herself into being comfortable with it, it wasn’t like she was morally opposed or even repulsed by it. She didn’t have urges, but her parts worked. With enough focus, she knew she could enjoy it and perhaps it was stupid of her to think that it would or could fix anything, but she at least hoped it might help.

Monday morning, everyone was looking at her strangely. Some laughed when she passed. Some whispered. NOBODY seemed threatened. Shana finally broke the silence with a very loud announcement of, “Good Morning, Internet’s Honeypot!” Everyone laughed. That wasn’t funny.

She rolled her eyes, but approached Shana. “What are you so cheery about?”

Shana feigned shock and asked, “Oh, you don’t know, Give It Up Grace? It seems that somebody was naughty over the weekend. I’d even say, downright NASTY!” The girls with Shana started laughing and didn’t stop whenever Grace threw them a warning glare.

Something was wrong with this picture. “What are you talking about, Shana?”

“Your boyfriend says that somebody stole his laptop this morning from the journalism room. A likely story. He’s the only thief in this school. But, whatever the truth is about that, this certainly is authentic,” Shana turned her phone to show Grace what was very clearly her, in a very personal situation with Simon. You couldn’t really see him, but she was certain that anybody who saw this could make him out. She slapped the phone out of Shana’s hand and rushed away. Every pair of eyes that fell upon her seemed to know… they all must’ve seen it. Where was Simon? Had he DONE this to her? She checked the journalism room, where he was talking to a group of boys who she knew weren’t even in journalism… “Simon!” She called.

The boys all began hushed laughter and Simon smiled at her, kicked one’s chair and warned him, “Knock it off.” He met her at the door and she was breathing hard. “You… okay?”

“No! Have you not seen that recording? A recording, mind you, that I didn’t know about nor consent to! Simon, PLEASE tell me that you didn’t record us without checking with me… Tell me that somebody who has it out for me hid a camera or something and…”

“What are you talking about Grace?” He asked. She studied his face. If there was anything that he should be worried about, there was no sign of it on his face.

“Shana said that your laptop got stolen,” she said. “Was there anything on it that you need to tell me about?”

He blushed, “I mean… I do have quite a porn collection,” he said, laughing. “And I found it! I’d apparently just left it in the library. Why?”

“Did you record us this weekend? Yes, or no?”

He furrowed his eyebrows and scoffed, “Is that something that you think I’m capable of?”

The conversation went in circles of her insisting that SOMEONE recorded them and him finally going through his laptop to see the video in question, then denying realizing that he had done this. But, since he left his laptop in the library, anybody could have sent it out. “Why would I do this, Grace? You worshiped me in the moments following this, why would I use it against you?”

“I don’t know!” She squealed, crying and embarrassed and now guilty because she had accused him. He gave her a hug and she cried on him. He walked her to class, but he didn’t seem to mind the whispers that were echoing in her head as they passed people. But, he was a boy.

Nobody was judging him the way that they were judging her. She would hear details like, “You can see that he’s not even wearing protection! She has no self respect.” or “I don’t think he pulled out. Good thing her family can afford abortions.” Then there was Shana. Shana had been waiting YEARS to knock Grace off of her pedestal, and she took every chance she got to do just that.

“Ooop. Backshots Ballerina in the building, Girls!” or “Mommy in the Making Monroe has arrived!” The worst part was that Simon wasn’t defending her. He wasn’t telling Shana to shut her fucking mouth. He wasn’t glaring at people laughing at her. He… seemed to be enjoying the attention. Then again, the attention he got was positive. She saw guys fist bump him and clap him on the back. She saw him laughing with people and them all quiet down when she approached. Simon always had an excuse as for why - none of which were related to “this obsession of yours.”

This obsession? The entire student body had seen her entire body. It was circulating and they were shaming her for a private moment she shared with someone she loved… and he wasn’t even phased by it. Did he even fucking love her??? Was this typical boy bullshit?

“You know Grace, your insecurity was cute at first, but now it’s starting to become pathetic,” Simon said. “You’re a public figure. People will always have something to say about you. Suck it up.” She slapped him in the face and stormed off, equal parts satisfied and mortified that she had reacted that way. She didn’t see the smile on his face as he rubbed his cheek. He was breaking the void down. She was losing respect and she was losing her cool. It had been so long since she reacted in violence. It kinda turned him on. It was like seeing old her for a moment. Even if it was directed at him.

Maybe she could get on a train and just leave town. Cash in her trust fund, buy a bungalow. Never look back… “Grace?” a boy’s voice said. She turned to see one of the Apex dudes. He bowed his head and she tapped her right cheek with two fingers. He came forward and held a sunflower in his hand. “I’m sorry that you’re having such a bad day,” he said and extended it to her.

“What is this?”

He looked confused. “Tribute.”

“We’re still doing that? Nobody has said a word to me all day…”

“Is the Apex over?” he asked.

She sighed and took the flower, shrugged her shoulders and said, “I guess it can live on with Simon. I’m… done with everything in this place.” Tears welled in her eyes and he reached out to offer her a hug. She accepted. Graham? Grant? Was the first person, Simon included, to be nice to her about this thing that she was going through. It was short lived. Simon appeared out of nowhere and before she could think or speak, had the kid by the collar and slammed into the lockers.

“Who do you think you are?” Simon asked him, baring his teeth.

“Simon! That’s Graham! He’s Apex. He was just checking on me!” She said and pulled on Simon’s shoulder.

Simon pressed his forehead to Graham’s and he said, “If I ever see you touch her again, you’ll give your right hand as tribute to me. Do you understand?”

“Yes, Simon. Understood Simon!”

“She’s. Mine.”

“I know, Simon. I’m sorry, Simon.” Simon shoved him and he rushed away. Simon raised an eyebrow and looked at Grace, expecting her to scold him for it. That’s what she was good for these days.

She looked relieved, though. She rushed into his arms and collapsed onto his chest. “I thought you didn’t care about me anymore.” She looked up into his eyes. They still weren’t soft like they used to be, but he had a bit of a smile on his face as he collected her.

“You never have to worry about that.” She squeezed him tightly and cried on his chest. He wanted to tell her to stop it. That people could see her and that she looked weak to them. But… that was the whole point of doing this to her in the first place.

Grace took a few days off of school. Simon brought her homework assignments. She was in bed most of the time. She wasn’t creating. She wasn’t living. She was sort of wasting away. Fortunately, so far the video scandal was being kept among the students, but she lay in waiting for when it went beyond them and she would have to try to explain herself to her parents. This was something that might never go away.

Thursday evening, Simon asked, “Are you ever coming back?” She shrugged her shoulders and climbed into his lap for cuddles. This was her comfort. A bubble with her favorite person, away from social media, away from relentless peers, away from her parents. Simon kissed her on the nose. “Has this… made you never want to try again?”

“No. I almost want to make a purposeful video and send it out myself, just to show these bitches that I’m Grace Monroe, and I can do anything.” Simon’s eyes lit up. That was his Grace! She laughed and rested her head on him again. “How’s it been for you?”

“I don’t like that you’ve let it keep you out of school. You HAD perfect attendance. Now, you don’t.”

“I don’t care about perfect attendance, Simon. I care about… being the perfect girlfriend. That’s my new goal.”

“What brought this on?”

"Just… I think I get why you haven't really been bothered about things. I've been shutting you out, shoving you away. I haven't been as open or supportive as I used to, so why should you be?" He looked different suddenly. He looked like old Simon. She knew those eyes. She knew that smile.

But, within moments, it went from warm, to guilty, to confused, to cold. He shrugged his shoulders and said, "There's a tough transition from childhood best friends to this. As long as you've got it now?"

"I think I've got it now." She said and kissed him again. She melted against his body and he strummed his fingers up and down the back of her neck. This is fucked up, Simon. You did something horrible to her, and now she's apologizing… But, she's still leaving you. It doesn't matter if she feels bad for being a bad girlfriend. It doesn't matter if she wants to undo that. She. Still. Wants. To. Leave. You. Proceed with her destruction… Its destruction. He cradled her, resigned that what he had already done and what he intended to do was completely fair and right.

Grace spent HOURS getting her hair unloc'd. She had to lose a lot of it, but it was still pretty long and made a large puffy halo that she could hardly wait to show off when she got back to school the next week. She felt brand new, though she wasn't excited to see the faces of her tormentors again. She and Simon got out of the car and she wrapped an arm around him and held her hand forward. Simon smiled and they moved forward. The kids made way, she smiled and greeted. Simon was quiet, but confident.

Shana said something and Grace exchanged knowing facial expressions with Simon. He smirked and gave her a little nod. Grace handed her backpack to Simon. She flapped her fingers, said, "Wah wah wah," then uppercut Shana. Uppercut. Shana bit her tongue and stumbled back, her mouth bleeding and her hand on her chin. Simon smirked. Grace accepted her backpack back.

The last time something like this happened (and it had been a while since Grace threw a punch on her own behalf, or on Simon's for that matter, nobody saw anything. They didn't know anything. They didn't say anything. But when the dean came rushing over, asking what happened, someone said, "Grace just assaulted Shana!"

Grace was startled by that. She saw other kids nodding and agreeing that was what they saw. She looked at Simon, who, instead of swaying them back to obedience said, "Shana asked for it." Grace's eyes went wide. The dean grabbed her by the elbow and dragged her to his office. She turned to look at Simon. He was just staring at them. He wasn't riled up or upset or even following. The kids gathered behind him, also just staring… What. The. Fuck…

Her parents were not happy. "Expelled? Expelled?? At the end of the school year?" Her father complained. "Over violence? We didn't raise you like this!"

"You've barely raised me at all!" She snapped. She winced and said, "I'm sorry… I didn't mean to. Shana was bullying me.."

"That's not what all of the other kids are saying."

"It's not even what Simon says," her mother added.

Now, Grace's nostrils flared. "What does Simon say?"

"It's no secret to anyone that Grace and Shana don't get along, but none of us expected it to become physical. Shana was definitely giving her a hard time, but Grace let her temper get the best of her and I hate to say it, but it was pretty uncalled for, to lay her out like that." Her mother read from Simon's text.

"I handed him my backpack. He knew that I was about to lay hands on that bitch. Please! He's just saying that to impress you. Simon's seen…" she shut up. She was about to get herself into more trouble. "He definitely knew what was gonna happen when I handed him my bag."

"Why would he lie, Grace?" Her father asked.

"He's… obviously still mad at me for wanting to go to school. Simon can get really sensitive and a little bit clingy. He's punishing me."

"That sounds like a terrible relationship," her mother said.

"It sounds like Grace making excuses for her disgusting behavior," her father said. The doorbell rang and the butler let Simon in.

He shook Mr. Monroe's hand, bowed to Mrs. Monroe and began speaking to Grace like she was some type of volatile animal. "Heyyy, Grace. Are you okay?" She clenched her fists and narrowed her eyes. "I talked to the Dean to try to get this handled. The best that I could do was to get him to let you finish the school year from home and still have your grades as a student of the Academy. But he does not want you to come into the building again."

"Why didn't you have my back?" She asked.

"Sounds like he did have your back!" Her father fussed.

"I am not talking to you right now, Dad!" She shrieked. Everyone froze and stared for a moment. Her father looked ready to angrily lash back, but her mother wrapped an arm around him and told Simon, "You'd better get her together, or else we'll have to."

"I'll take care of it," Simon said.

"I'll take care of it? You'll take CARE of it???" Grace repeated, then laughed and shook her head.

Simon watched her parents leave the terrace and he sat next to her. "You seem like you have some things on your mind."

Grace was wondering if she was the crazy one? He completely threw her under the bus at school and in front of her parents and they just… ate it up. "Do they know that I'M THE ONE that always has to keep you chill?"

"You're not that one right now."

"That's because you're being different. You're up to something and I can't figure out what?"

"I'm playing the game that we play with parents. You WANTED them to like me, did you not?"

"Not like this! They're not supposed to think you're better than me!"

"I see. I get it now. All those times when you insisted that we should be treated equally, you were just lying to me like you lie to everybody. And now that people are treating me good, you can't stand it."

"This isn't about PEOPLE, Simon, it's about MY PARENTS and how you're... you're... STEALING them!"

Simon tells her, "It's not my fault they like me more than you." Grace started crying. He sighed and rolled his eyes. "God, AGAIN with the crying. You're really a child."

"What is your problem? How can you say something like that to me when you know how I feel about my parents?"

He scoffed, "Yeah. And now we get to the truth about how you feel about me too. This is bigger than your stupid fucking parents." She looked at his face. He looked… like he was having a completely different conversation. His face would never let on that he had just said the mean things to her that he had just said.

"Is… this about me leaving for school? You turned on me because I was gonna leave for school, Simon?"

"You lied to me. You betrayed the Apex."

"The Ape… Simon WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? The Apex doesn't have anything to do with this!"

"The Apex has everything to do with this!" He finally actually looked as mad at his words. "We were the Apex. Just you and me! We had everything we needed in each other. We belonged together. We built it together. It was our mark on the world. Our show of power and greatness… and you just threw it away! You threw ME away." He out his face into his hands and tried to catch his breath. She still didn't know what this even meant.

"I'm sorry, okay? I'm sorry that it felt that way. I just wanted to do something for myself… if it makes you feel like this, I won't leave, Simon. We'll work it out…"

He uncovered his face and it was surprisingly clear. She couldn't figure out what to think of him, but her heart was all over the place. Simon told Grace to calm down, but she was already sitting quietly, thinking, and she was getting mad that he was behaving like not only a stranger but a… horrible person! "I am calm," she said, though her teeth. "Just still very confused. Why are you being this way, Simon? I just gave you my virginity like a week ago.." her voice cracked.

He smirked, looked her right in the face and said, "That meant nothing to me."

She gasped and clutched her heart. This was… too much. Was she having a nightmare? Simon would never say these things to her. He would never hurt her. "Simon… are you saying that you don't even love me anymore?"

"I'm saying I don't even know who you are. The girl that I loved was strong, powerful and she cared about me. She wasn't a liar, pretending to love me until she could get away from me. Pretending to see me as an equal, but squirms anytime someone sides with me. She was worthy of respect. Whatever you are, you're not even worthy of her name. You're not worthy of respect. And you aren't worthy of love. You're nothing to me."

She shook her head and looked out at the estate. Tears were pouring down her face. He put his hand on her back and rubbed it and for a moment, despite everything he had just said to her, she was relieved that he seemed gentle with her. But the he said, "Before I go, I want you to know that I actually did record us on purpose…" her head turned sharply to him and she stared at his thin lips as he said, "And I'm the one who leaked it." …Then...he smiled.

Grace punched him in the teeth. He threw his hands up to cover his head. He knew her fighting style. She hit you in the face and head and neck. That's where she was swinging, but he was blocking well enough. So well, she was enraged and pulled his hair, twisting it in her fist to try to lift his head. Before she could strike him in the face again,she felt her mother's hands rip her away from him.

"Grace! You've caused us enough trouble with your violent outbursts! And now you’ve set your fists upon Simon?" All Grace could do was roar in anger, startling her mother.

Simon almost couldn’t hide his smirk. Luckily Mrs. Monroe was staring at her daughter (in horror), "I'm sorry, Mrs. M This was my fault. I didn't mean to make her so mad. I know how she gets when she gets mad…" Grace charged at him, but Mrs. Monroe stood between them and grabbed her wrists.

"WE will talk about this later!" She placed a hand on Simon's back and led him back into the house to assess the damage and be sure that he wasn't ready to sue like Shana's parents were.

Grace asked herself, "Am I fucking crazy?" Simon smirked at her as he walked away with her mom. "No. He's. Crazy. HE'S fucking crazy!" She grabbed a handful of her fro and leaned on the rail with the other hand, sobbing.

Simon turned to Mrs. Monroe and said, "You realize that I love her right?"

Mrs. Monroe became visibly tense as she replied, "I realize that there's some feelings between you that you believe are very strong, but I also know that my daughter is hard to love."

"That's not true! I loved Grace almost the moment I met her. She's very generous. She's helpful. She's protective, oh and she's genuine... being genuine is the most important trait of a friend."

While Mrs. Monroe wasn't paying attention to him, he and Grace looked at each other through the window, and he glared at her hatefully. She stormed through the living room and up the stairs, slamming the door behind her.

Then, she just… cried again, and sat down on the floor. She's unsure to this day how long she sat there, but she knows that both of her parents came together, each separately, the housekeeper, the butler and some doctor tried to talk to her before she finally got up, went into her bathroom and resumed sitting in the bathtub. She was there for 13 hours. She remembers that much. Not much else. The entire time period was just… day after day of hurt. And he still wasn't done with her.

#If They Didn't Get on the Train #AU Infinity Train #Infinity Train #Nesha Fanfiction #Infinity Train Fanfiction #fics

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quesselfships · 4 years ago

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It's been a weird 24 hours.

It started earlier this week when a Big Joel video was recommended to me about why A. I. didn't work or some shit. I never saw the movie when it came out and I mostly just remember everyone hating it.

What I didn't know was Jude Law was in this movie and I've got a thing for like Gattaca-to-Sky Captain era Jude Law. So I'm like. Fuck let's watch it. Let's have a snark fest. Let's have fun. And for the record I had a great time so fuck the haters.

Monday I watched Sky Captain and I remembered how gay I was for Franky and also how much I love Dieselpunk.

Tuesday I watched Gattaca and every time I watch that movie I sob. Jerome deserved better and Vincent is an on fire garbage can of a human being.

Wednesday I watched AI. And it's pretty much exactly what I thought. It wasn't as bad as I thought. It was Pinocchio but with Robots. And while I didn't really pay attention to Sky Captain because Franky and Jerome is a project and I think he's gay... I was unbelievably entranced by Gigilo Joe.

Two and a half hour long movie, didn't get any stitching done, read all the fanfic that's available, of which there was really only one worth reading.

Here's my comment on the fic, verbatim: "So here I am. 20 years late to this party. I have work tomorrow and I'll likely be routed around construction and I can't focus on that at 7am on a good day. And here I am at 11:15 pm having read all of this and having my heart strings pulled and feeling so many feels. This is beautiful. This is incredible. I have loved every second of reading this. I want to go back to the beginning and start over. I texted my friends reactions to me reading it. I just. *insert this is beautiful meme*"

I felt pretty smitten if I'm being honest. Over night though, the ethical quandaries I had starting boiling and bubbling.

@ellesselfships, who has been my rock through this process, got the text this morning: "I don't think Joe would be a good idea. Like. He's beautiful and I'd love to give him whatever freedom I could offer but... I don't know if he would have the capacity for feelings. How much of what he does would be pre programming? How much space is there for his neurons to form new connections?"

Her counter point was essentially ya but what if😏.

Which, I mean, valid.

I just had ethical questions. I've never bonded to an android before. The programs from the Matrix who hung around when I was younger were essentially viruses broken free from their original code, and Icheb is a cyborg which is different.

Luckily. One of my best friends is completing his masters in philosophy, and enjoys ethics.

After my rambling to him, and of course making an I Heart Huckabees joke because Jude Law, he summarized: "If I follow, the worry is that if you rescue, you wouldn't know if affection towards you is genuine, or the result of programming which forces him to act how he thinks would make you most happy?"

He thinks, should I go through with this, explaining things as what I want is for him to be happy. I would grant him whatever freedoms, rights, and protections I could. I know people who know Data the android from Star Trek because my fucking headspace is massive. And should he and I not work out, I'm not going to take these things away from him, his rights as a person are not contingent on how he feels about me, if he can even feel about me. A good example of this is Yondu. We don't click romantically but we're great friends and he has a great, stable trade route he does. He spends time with the littles, he has a home here that I won't take away just because he's not attracted to me.

I can only assume, without looking at it, his programming is, well, programmed to make his clients, in this case me, happy. But my happiness is his happiness, so he would have to make choices and decisions for himself. And I'd probably ask Reg if he could convince La Forge and Data to spare a few days for this.

It still feels strange because what are emotions if not a series of codes in your brain? How can I ever know his feelings are feelings and not an extension of preprogrammed scenarios, given his line of work. But how do I know that about Kylo, for example. Sitting beside me, being extremely gentle with me because of how my period triggers me. I have to trust him. In that what he is saying is correct.

If I don't extend that to an android, is that not just... Bigotry? Is it a lie if it's preprogrammed? I guess that's the determinism argument too. Is anything free will?

I've read enough android fucker fic (Detroit Become Human is really, and I mean really, popular in the watersports tag in Ao3 for reasons I can't explain) to know that a lot of people don't see a difference between biological neurochemicals and programmed ones.

I don't want to hurt him. A lot of humans have. The end of the movie doesn't really tie up his story but I can assume it's not pretty. AI dealt with a lot of heavy themes people forget about and I don't think I'm wrong to compare it most plainly not with Pinocchio, but with the Matrix short film The Second Renaissance which to this day haunts me. I'll never forget the robot screaming "I'm real."

(turns out I can't find a good gif for this scene because like. It's pretty fucking violent and I don't know how to do cuts on mobile sorry)

The worst part of headspace stuff is for things like this, where I feel like if I just decide to reach out all this is just bullshit. Like more than it already is lol. I just don't want to do wrong by my people. Because these experiences are more than me being lonely or a fangirl, or desperate. I know it's hard for people who don't do this to understand but just like that robot screaming I'm real, so are they, in their own way.

#self shipping #long post

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turning-dreams-into-chaos · 5 years ago

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Upcoming Requests

As I promised, I’m popping on to post a list of all my requests I’m doing. I know I have asks and messages, but I’m not going to go through them right now, but I appreciate all your support everyone. I’m not tagging people who requested until it’s posted because most of these are anons. Please like and reblog this, just so others are aware of what I’m doing, and comment which pieces you’re looking forward to the most! It’s a LONG list, so I’m adding a read more option. I’m not posting these in any order, that’s just how they’re listed.

Also check out my writing challenge in my bio!

Requests:

Bellamy Blake:

Can you do a Bellamy x reader? which takes place in season 3 with the chips that take away their pain. The reader is going through something and wants to take it but Bellamy stops them? Love your writing and don’t care about the haters!

Hi! It’s me again. I’ve got this BellamyxReader idea where the reader has become more and more reckless, and when she kills someone she doesn’t even flinch. Everyone’s worried, especially Bellamy. When they get to restrain chipped-Raven and they’re taking shifts to check on her. While it’s the reader’s turn, Raven says something that makes her snap. I have 2 ideas for the end: either the readers goes out and points a gun to her head or she points it to Raven. Either way, Bellamy stops her. (I was thinking that maybe no one knows about it and that the reader’s been keeping it under control with the meds Kane managed to give her before she was sent to earth with the 100 (maybe she could be Kane’s daughter).Then, when Jaha started chipping everyone, ALIE ordered someone to steal her meds and she didn’t really want to tell anyone about the missing meds. She started to go through the maniac phase of it, and people around her (Bellamy, Clarke) started to notice that something was off Then, coming back to my original request lol, Raven told her that they stole their meds to mess with her and you can connect it with the rest of my other request)

Hi there, I was wondering if i could request an angsty/fluffy S5 Bellamy fic based on the song “Hesitate” by the Jonas Brothers? Thank you ☺❤

Is it possible to get a bellamy one-shot or something based on the song “I hate you, I love you” by gnash and olivia o’brien? I’m not really picky (at all) by what the plot is, but I feel like it’s a good song to write a fic about, thanks girlie 💜 ~ Posted!

Okay soooo I have this on my mind for aawhile!Are you able to do a Bellamy Blake x plus size (if you want) reader imagine based on the song “Don’t wanna fall in love” by KYLE… if you want though!

Hi! I have a request What about a Bellamy x Reader based on the song Happy Pills by Weathers?

Would you be willing to do a Bell x Reader based on the song ALARM by Anne-Marie? Maybe something in season 1, but you can decide a different season if it’s easier☺

Your song fics are so goooddddd! Can you PLEASE do one based on If the World was Ending? Its by JP Saxe and Julia Michaels. Can it be a lot of angst and maybe a cute ending if it works? Thank you!!!!!

Hi!! I love your work! I was wondering if you could write a Bellamy x reader based on the song Hot Girl Bummer by blackbear! Thank you ❤️ have a nice day!

Could you maybe do something Season 1 Bellamy where he's tough and lets everybody "do whatever the hell they want" but he's bossier to you and you're a rebellious spirit but he's actually being hard on you because he really really likes you and he doesn't want anything to happen to you (he's bossy in a roundabout way so he makes sure you get dinner and are safe and stuff) and maybe something happens and she gets hurt cause she's mad at him and he admits his feelings for her? Sassy and sweet?

Sirius Black:

hello! can i request an imagine in which reader is Lucius’ little sister, so she has a bad reputation among the marauders, but on their last year, her and Sirius are supposed to work on a project together so they start spending more time together and he realises that she’s not like her family at all, so they start developing feelings for each other? maybe they even kiss in the end? hehe. thanks!

Hey sweets! I was wondering if I could request a oneshot with young!Sirius please? Something with a lot of mutual pining? Also if the reader could be in Ravenclaw that would be really nice :) Thanks anyways 💓

can i request an extremely fluffy (floof upon floof) and wholesome fic with sirius? :’) thank you

Could you please write a Sirius x reader where the reader is a Gryffindor but is very quiet and cold and Sirius tries to get closer to her?

Hey! I saw that your requests for the marauders were open. I would like to request a Sirius oneshot where he has a crush on reader who is super sassy and will not give him time of the day. He is a bit sad and so maybe James takes it upon himself to get them together? Maybe as a bonus they help July get together too? Thankyou 😍

Hey! How are you? Thanks to Seira I discovered you were writing for the marauders! So I was thinking could you right something on the marauders (Sirius x reader) were it’s full moon and they’re in the muggle world. Moony is stuck in the middle of a village, there is a lot of muggle around him so the reader (who is an animagus too since she’s a marauder) save him but finish hurt by a villager so Sirius protect her and carry her away? I hope it’s understandable and sorry if my English is bad :)

Barry Allen:

Hiii! One last request before you close them! Maybe a Barry Allen x reader where the reader has got “dark” powers? I picture her like Billie Eilish in her music video “Bury a Friend”. I don’t know if I explained it clearly 😂

James Potter:

I really love your works on Harry Potter (basically marauders) Can I request 14, 16, 18, 23, 28 for James Potter. Can reader be Remus' twin sister, a Gryffindor? I I would be really happy to read it. Also if possible can you make a happy ending for it? I trust you can write a perfect fic! Thank you:) (are you still open to this kind of requests?)~ Posted!

could u maybe work on a lil james potter fic (cus ur reqs for him are open)? one where he's trying so hard to get a girl in the quidditch team (but she's bolder than he is so she tells him she'll only join if he goes on a date w her) i thought it'd be pretty cool... thank u

I don't know if you are taking one shot requests but if you are, I would like to request a James Potter x reader (different houses, not specified) where they enter a Hogwarts Couples Baking Challenge and they're just having fun. Thanks!

Remus Lupin:

Hi!!! Could I get a gender neutral!reader x Remus?? Something with mutual pining maybe?? Also I would love if the reader is in hufflepuff!! Thank you!!!

Hey! Can I request a oneshot with Remus where he likes reader who is Lily's best friend and us smarter than her too and is also a prefect? He asks for her help to study and accidentally confesses his feelings at the same time/or confesses during one of their prefect rounds? Thankyou!

can i request some angst for younger remus where it's a couple days after the full moon and he looks for the reader so they can cuddle (they're already dating) and he finds them kissing another guy, and he asks reader why and the readers like "i dont want you anymore, i love this guy, blah blah blah" and he's heart broken but later somehow reader's friend finds out the guy gave them a love potion and fixes it, and reader has to try to explain to Remus that it's what happened but he doesn't (1/2) believe her, and it's all angsty because he's mad at her but in the end he understands or something like that, and i am SO sorry that this is so long, and i love love love your writing~ Posted!

John Murphy:

I think 18 by 1D would be such a cute song for Murphy! I saw your requests were open for him (THANK GOD because your writing is incredible!) and I was hoping you wouldn’t mind? Thanks love!

John Murphy with a reader that got her arm or leg or both taken on earth and it’s about her recovering and John helping her. If you can’t do John then sorry for bothering!!

Undecided:

I wasn't going to ask this because I already requested something (believe me when I say I read the moment I knew lots of times already), but just trying it won't hurt me, right? (right? 😭) I need something based on lover of mine by 5sos it can be bellamy, sirius, james, remus or bucky, whoever you think would fit better. thank you for putting up with my shit 🤧 love you tons - 🍑 (Undecided because I haven’t figured out who to write for yet, I think it might be Bucky)

So this is hella randombut can u do a eli goree x reader ship. Eli played wells on the 100 and mad dog on riverdale btw. Anyway can it be were your also famous actor and played in the 100 and riverdale ect and u guys are playing a game on the jimy falon show and your picking random QUITIONS from a dec of cards abd most of them are things having to fo with ur friend ship (u guys are like bestfriends and everybody ships u2) reader picks random card that says I asked you out would you say yes? (Undecided because my requests aren’t open for Eli and I’ve never written for an actor before, but I kinda wanna write this despite my requests not for him. So idk yet. Question: If I do write this, do you Eli to say yes? and do you want them together? No promises on writing it, but send me an ask and let me know please.)

#Request list #todo #Requests closed #send asks #bellamy blake x reader #Sirius black x reader #barry allen x reader #remus lupin x reader #james potter x reader #bucky barnes x reader #let me know which ones yall are waiting for #I came i posted imma leave

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enkisstories · 5 years ago

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Just like them (part 4)

Still November 16, 2038 Capitol Park

Daniel was standing slightly hunched over with his back against a lantern post. In Raj’s worn out sweater that was a few sizes too large for him and his expression switching erratically between stiffling back tears and radiating searing hatred, the deviant was looking just like another homeless taking a breather between… whatever it was that homeless humans were doing.

The android’s gaze went over Capitol Park; he was taking in the scenery, but feeling nothing. Maybe history had been written at this place, or at least events that had prepared history getting written had occurred here. But even so, what did history mean to Daniel no-longer-Phillips? It was in the past. Like his old life.

All the places inside me that used to be wolf are empty and the stars haven’t filled up them yet.

The quote had come unbidden to Daniel’s deviant mind. The line came from one of Emma’s favorite animated movies, a fantasy flick about elves that had blood-bonded with wolves to survive on a hostile world they had crashed on in their magical palace. The movie had been all the rage in 2037.

Stars…

Daniel raised his head. A few determined stars were piercing through Detroit’s urban dust cloud. They were flickering as if uncertain if winking out wasn’t the better option.

Yeah, suckers. I have no idea why I’ve come here tonight either.

The idea had been sound, though… One couldn’t go through life in an old sweater of one’s downstairs neighbor and playing a video of the past in one’s head all the time. Striving for redemption meant you had to devote your life to making the world around you as positive as possible, not to make yourself feel as miserable as possible. That sounded uplifting in theory only. In practice no one told you how to achieve those feats. No one ever told you anything. Alone… always alone. Alone with the anger. Anger at the Phillips family. At himself. At the cruel fact that “the Phillips family” and “himself” had always been two different things and that he just hadn’t gotten that. A good chunk of Daniel’s anger also got directed the Rasoya family’s way. The humans had donated some old clothes and pocket money, but then sent Daniel out to “live” and “get it over already”.

Easy to say for them! To the world three months had passed since the kidnapping and the human family was wondering why Daniel hadn’t made any progress at all since then. How hard was it to understand that he had spent those months deactivated? That no time had passed for the android? From Daniel’s perspective his first encounter with Connor had happened the day before yesterday. And, come to think of it, the second one, when Connor had interrogated the PL600 about Jericho, felt like having happened yesterday. The third had occurred only this morning, at the DPD! That were three Connor-moments in as many days!!!

Three days ago… three days ago John had still been alive.

I didn’t want to kill you. Why couldn’t you, I dunno, just dodge my shots? Is that asked for too much?! Yeah, right, like everything. You never lifted a finger for me. And then you died on me, leaving me in this mess…

And that was when the music started, a guitar being played near the center of the square. At first Daniel thought he was imagining the music notes, but then a voice rose up to accompany the guitar player:

Timmain – shape-shifter, your people are exiles / wandering aimless, your people are lost. Hated and hunted, with fear their companion / chilled by the rainstorm and pierced by the frost…

So that was why the deviant had thought about the wolf/stars quote just a few heartbeats ago! Because he had heard the artist strumming their guitar in preparation for this song, without really becoming aware of what his audio receptors were picking up. Now that he was paying attention actively, a quick analysis of his digital memory told Daniel that the song was sung by the very same artist who had performed it for the movie. She was right here and quickly drawing a crowd. Daniel noticed a few androids mixed into the humans. The amount of shoving and getting shoved was pretty equal between both species.

Another PL600 was waving with two hotdogs he had just purchased. From out of the crowd a woman and boychild emerged. They were holding autographs. Great care was taken not to spill fat on the signed pictures when the hot dogs were exchanged for the papers. After the autographs had gotten stored and the humans were holding their sausages, the PL600 put a bubble gum into his mouth so that all three of them were munching on something. And then they took the child between them and walked away, chatting and laughing, as if they didn’t have a single care in the world. And then…

…then Daniel pushed himself away from the lantern post and walked past the family of three, elbowing the android as he went by.

The PL600 turned around and opened his mouth. His human partner dragged him away, muttering: “Let’m. Haters gonna hate, is all.”

What have I done? Why did I...? I didn’t want to hurt it! It did nothing to deserve an attack. It was cherished. No, not “it”. He! What the hell is wrong with me?!

Standing there dumbfounded, Daniel heard the other PL600 lament: “But I thought all the haters had left Detroit during the evacuation! That the hiding and the fear would be over! I mean, it’s been a week since Markus … Uh, silly me. A week is nothing, right?”

Not for humans, but for us. Humans… those lucky buggers are near eternal.

Oh, yes, Daniel of course knew all the talk about thirium being an incredible power source and how android batteries were good for a hundred years or more. And that was true for the happy community of voltaic cells, unfortunately by the time it had reached the end of its life, the battery would have passed through many android bodies, because those weren’t built to last. CyberLife had wanted to sell the newest models, after all. Even before getting shot, Daniel had felt the first age related ailments: scratches on his chassis that had accumulated over time and glitches in his software. The situation inevitably would become worse, especially with CyberLife having dropped support for the PL600 model. Just like cars, some androids didn’t even survive their first year, but with care they could become as old as twenty, with lucky individuals surpassing even that milestone. It wasn’t fair, but pondering the unfairness of CyberLife’s business plan served to distract Daniel’s mind from the unfairness he had committed himself just now.

“I’ll be back with you in a jiffy!”

That was the singer’s voice, coming from out of the shambling heap made of human bodies.

“But for now let me see to those who are too shy to push forward! We’re all packmates, after all!”

And with these words the singer moved through the crowd towards the fans that were standing at its very edge. In fact, she was standing right next to Daniel all of a sudden and brandishing her pen.

“Uh, sorry, but I don’t…”

“Don’t have a picture to sign? No biggie! We’ve been told how tight money is for many in this city, that’s why my manager brought enough photos to pass around.”

The photograph the singer produced didn’t show her in a costume or anything related to the movie, it was a simple headshot in front of a grey background. The sheet of paper wasn’t even layered to project the signature it was to receive above it either. It was just an old-fashioned 2-D picture.

Clever bastard, that manager, dishing the cheap stuff out to the penniless as to not make the actually paying customers grumpy, Daniel thought, while out loud muttering something about having seen the elf movie with “his girl”. The bitch must have glimpsed my LED (that Daniel had to keep as another of those pesky parole terms), and is now making a big show of sisterhood with an android. That’s all there is to it! Maintaining her public image! She’s not really being nice to me.

“Want me to sign this for her?” the singer asked. “What’s her name?”

“E… Emma.”

“Your girlfriend?”

“Uh… no. I… hate her? I’m not sure. I mean, I don’t want to hate her, but she sure does hate me now. There’s no other possibility.”

“Girlfriend, check”, the singer nodded wisely. “Been there, too, you know.” The artists flashed the android an encouraging smile before turning to the next fan. The crowd started pushing and shoving again, moving across the square like a lazy, content gelatinous cube. Daniel got moved along until the mass ejected him near the CyberLife store’s near-empty window. A few blood bags and replacement components were up for sale, but no androids anymore. Or at least not for time being. In the future… who could tell!

Daniel carefully stored the autograph in his oversized sweater’s front pocket. He might forget about it or it might become an anonymously sent Christmas present. That, too, remained to be seen.

(to be continued)

Timmain - The calling: At 8:27 here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9NPlbTyU40

#dbh #detroit become human #dbh daniel #dbhtextpost #danielgavinnewstory

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comicteaparty · 5 years ago

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November 9th-November 15th, 2019 Creator Babble Archive

The archive for the Creator Babble chat that occurred from November 9th, 2019 to November 15th, 2019. The chat focused on the following question:

How do you deal with a lack of engagement from your audience, both emotionally and physically?

IzzyNinjaMaster

Oooo now that's a good question. If my online audience doesn't respond, I personally always show any new page updates to my family and friends and get feedback and comments from them. Really great for support. But sometimes their not available or I don't have anything new to show them. When this happens, I just look to myself for support. I know that doesn't really make sense or sounds kinda cheesy but it's what I do. I get myself pumped up and excited for what I can do next in the story and how awesome it will look all drawn out. And I go from there, I'll start drawing out ideas or writing out new chapters. So just be your own hype man, not just with your comics either but with everything. Great for self esteem.

Sorry went on kind of a rant right there

carcarchu

I prepare myself emotionally to not have any expectations. If you expect nothing and receive something you'll always be happy!

IzzyNinjaMaster

Lol true very true XD

Deo101

I'm not completely sure what this question means by physically, but I just kind of keep making art to move past it. Something that has helped me a TON is to make art that's just for me (like, that I don't post anywhere). I think that if everything is made to be shared, then we get a little too used to trying to find validation with engagement. With comics, specifically, I try to make none of my goals relate to engagement. I only have goals for myself and what i'm producing. If I'm hitting all of my goals, then I feel good about what I'm doing! No one engaging with it is just kind of like "okay!" Another smaller thing that helps me is getting my work done well before I upload it! for some reason just getting a bit of time distance between when something is done and when I post it I dont feel so bad if people don't engage.

Cronaj

I'm fairly lucky that I have a small following on one of the sites I post on, so while some weeks might be slow with feedback or engagement, I'm usually not completely devoid. I also have some very supportive family members who read my comic and often comment or text me after I update. As for what I do personally when I don't have a lot of engagement? I do a lot of self-reflecting, which is probably not the healthiest of practices. I question what I'm doing, trying to figure out what I'm doing wrong and how I could improve. I also try to understand other external factors at play, such as my readers' personal lives, jobs, school, holidays, that might have delayed them from engaging with my work. For example, I know that during November, as we get closer to Thanksgiving, there is going to be a huge drop in readership, because a lot of my younger readers will be preparing for school finals and visiting with family. By knowing this, it helps me cope a lot better. And if all else fails, I vent to my fiance or my little sister. It really does help to have someone to whine at for a bit

khkddn

If I were to get completely zero engagement on something I'd do what I'd always do, message people I know irl like "validate meeeeeeee"

In general I just take a step back from what I've posted and focus on something else. That way I remember webcomics isn't everything, and by the time I check up on things again there might be some sort of audience response.

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

I kept my work hidden for the first few years I was working on it (wanted to iron out any wrinkles before I was comfortable sharing) so in comparison, any engagement afterward - even a tiny amount - is pretty great! And even now, some updates get more traffic than others, for a lot of different reasons. Luck, timing, quality, etc. I always keep in mind that this project is - at its heart - for me and my own enjoyment/fulfillment. And if I’m pleased with where it’s going, that’s a win.

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Oof, that question really hit me where it hurts. Over the years I’ve lowered my expectations, because while I used to have an active audience in the ‘00s, I’ve rarely gotten any engagement on my comics in the ‘10s. It’s definitely made me feel depressed and like a ‘failure’ to put heart and soul into my comics and art and get 0 reaction online. I honestly don’t have any way I ‘deal’ with it. I make something, hoping to get some comments > I get no comments > I get depressed about it and feel like my work is garbage. Rinse and repeat several hundred times. I keep going because I just love to create, but it’s like an actor trying to put on a performance and no one shows up to the play. It has gotten better lately and I’ve started getting some engagement for the first time in many years, but I honestly don’t have a good answer for how I handle that emotional reaction to reader silence.

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

Also good to keep in mind that lots of people may read without commenting, and still enjoy it! I did a poll wondering who would be interested in doing guest art, and way more people responded than I expected. It opened my eyes! Sometimes you just can’t tell until you outright ask for feedback

keii4ii

There's definitely a risk to that, though. You ask and still get nothing. Or worse, you ask and get negativity. Asking is a worthy gamble, but it takes courage! Sometimes when we don't have enough courage, we gotta find it elsewhere first, before we can try that gamble...

I lost that gamble one too many times and need more Courage Fund before I can try again, lol

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

True true! It was a gamble I had no real expectations/assumptions about, so I didn’t have much room for disappointment. Even getting one person who says “This is cool!” is enough to fuel me for days. But I know that’s not how it is for everyone. Once you’ve been disappointed once, it can take a while to get the urge to try again. I can’t imagine getting negativity, though... I think THAT would wreck me.

keii4ii

Sometimes I don't even ask and someone just randomly drops negativity off at my doorstep... I need to remember that I have also had wonderfully positive responses, that it wasn't all negative. But it can be hard to remember that on bad days.

Deo101

Yeah, negative comments always seem to be the loudest ones... They can drown out dozens of good ones if they hit you right.

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

I did develop a pretty thick skin for negativity in art school, which was really fortunate because my comics garnered a lot of negative attention at first. Though thinking back on it, I was making very androgynous and gender non-conforming characters (even though I never stated anywhere that they were queer) in a time when the public attitude towards such things was far less kind than it is today. At the time it was draining to get so many trolls, but unless I was already having emotional difficulties in other areas of my life, I was able to let it roll off.(edited)

keii4ii

The weirdest thing with my negativity is 99% of them come from actual readers who mean well. So I have a hard time dismissing them like 'oh they're just haters.' It's not necessarily harder than dealing with blatant trolls, but it is an entirely different beast.

Deo101

Sometimes I go and reread positive comments when I'm down about things

Yeah I'm not sure that I've had any trolls tbh... Its all readers saying what they think

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Avid readers who give backhanded compliments and ‘well-meaning’ but very subjective critique can definitely be detrimental.

keii4ii

In Korea, I dunno if they're still a thing, but 1-2 decades ago there was this type of theft called slash theft. It's a type of pickpocketing, done on the street while walking by. They bump into you, briefly and lightly, but you don't think much of it because Seoul is a crowded city and you brush against other people all the time. But during that brief bump, they manage to slash open your purse and take all the contents. It's an amazing ninja level skill for sure. I know people who had their stuff stolen that way. Back to the Courage Fund analogy, sometimes a negative comment isn't just a normal theft of your Fund. The comment slashes your purse open, and now your bag can't contain Fund even if you put more and more into it.

It can take a long time and lots of support to sew your purse back.

Deo101

Idk if other places to slash theft, im sure they do, but im pretty sure historically its been a big thing. The term "cutpurse" comes to mind

keii4ii

(:o I didn't know that was a term! The more you know)

Deo101

(some book i read (wasn't great but you know) used the term a lot and i was like "ok wtf is this")

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

That’s a very good analogy for it, and I definitely understand what you mean. I had to take a three year hiatus from one of my comics once after a IRL ‘friend’ ripped the comic apart and called me a terrible writer in less-than-kind words. I had already been going through some very bad things with my health and family and it hurt me far more than it should. It took some encouragement from some very dedicated readers to convince me to pick up the comic again.

Deo101

(so i associate it with pirates now)

That's really terrible lee... Om glad you picked it back uo though!!!

keii4ii

I can super relate to harsh comments hurting way more than they should, when you're already in a bad state. >_<

Deo101

And also it is a really good analogy keiiii

Yeah things just kinda get harder to deal with in general when you're more tired/upset in other areas

keii4ii

The most devastating feedback I've got would have done far less damage if I weren't in a fragile state at the time.

Deo101

Like you can't go be safe elsewhere if everything is a source of stress...

keii4ii

(For all we know those slashers in Korea could be pirates )

Deo101

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Does Korea have pirates? If so, I’m moving to Korea.

(Sorry, we’ve probably gone way off topic for the discussion)

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

I got antsy when someone made a small critique of my lettering (rightfully so, though - lettering is hard and I’m still learning) so a proper heart-stabbing, bad-faith critique might sideline me for a while. Gotta be prepared for that someday

Deo101

Its weird, it really seems to be mostly about how I'm doing elsewhere in life now that im thinking about it. Also being further along in the comic helps cause I've got years of support and "just keep chuggin" under my belt

Like the other day someone critiqued me randomly and called my characters stupid and i was like "dam ok, your comment getting deleted then" but a year or so ago a comment like "I'm sorry im a little confused..." Made me second guess everything for weeks

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

Ohhh Maybe the obviously mean/troll comments are easier to deal with, than feeling you let down a reader who was genuinely trying to understand the story. I would definitely react similarly.

Deo101

Iunno, the big old critique was a normal reader who has left other comments he jusy kinda randomly did it. But yeah I think it can be easier to shrug off things that are CLEARLY antagonistic versus someone being harmlessly confused

Because confusion can mean I'm not being clear enough and need to change things and whatever. Its vague in a way that hits your anxiety

keii4ii

Yeah, when someone is obviously being a jerk, you know it's on them

omg... reader confusion has been the bane of my existence

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

I dunno, man, art school just toughened me up to most negative comments. If one person out of five is confused, I don’t take it personally and just explain it to them to clear up confusion. If everyone’s confused I think ‘Hmm, maybe I should retcon in some dialogue to make it more clear’. I guess art school really teaches you to distance yourself from your work and be very objective about it. BUT as I said, I’m not immune when other bad things are going on and it becomes the straw that broke the camel’s back.

Deo101

Though THEN you kinda get like "why am I being a target???" And its very frustrating, at the very least, and it does definitely still hurt... (Wrt trolls)

keii4ii

It's hard to tell who's confused and who isn't sometimes

Deo101

Yeah Lee im in art school right now, but for me its different when I make something to be critiqued versus a passion long term project

If I am asking for critique too, im braced for it in a way I'm mentally prepared for. Im not always braced to have someone be like "its pretty good buuut..."

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Ahh, I can understand that. I guess I’m able to view my passion projects the same way I did my school projects. It took time, that’s for sure. It’s a process of desensitisation, and was something I had to build up over years.

keii4ii

I'm disproportionately sensitive about reader misinterpretations/confusion. I'm 95% sure it's because one bad experience. Someone thought my main story was garbage, but they liked parts of it, so they told me to basically make a different story using those parts. After that, every time a reader didn't recognize the main story (I got a very prominent B plot, so it's kinda understandable that some people mistake it as the A), I got vivid flashbacks of that one bad experience. Every time someone said they liked [this character that The Other Person liked], I got flashbacks. Took me good 2-3 years to get over it.

Deo101

Its also a lil different when it's like.. i wont be changing these pages so unless it's a critique for moving forward its kinda pointless and i cant really apply it

Damn keiiii that's really rough

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Yeah, that sucks.

keii4ii

Yeah, it's hard to be motivated when the underlying message is "your first 100 pages are hot garbage, but you can still improve........ even if readers will give up long before they get to the decent 101st page!"

Deo101

RIGHT...

I don't want to have to preface "check out my comic!" Wirh "i promise it gets better..."

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

COUGH That’s exactly why I’m reduxing Eryl’s hot garbage beginning right now COUGH

Also because I’m a masochist and perfectionist.....

keii4ii

I think "it gets better" is fine when it's a reader reccing it. (I remember some of my friends reccing multi-season anime series to each other, going, "it gets better after season 1") But yeah, as the author we can't be the ones saying it.

Deo101

Mhm.

And I'm still hapoy with my old pages. I know I could do them better now but they're perfectly fine and they get the job done so... Idk its just hard when someone is like "wow two years ago you made a mistake, :/"

Like. Yeah, duh... I've spent like a thousand hours on pages theres gonna be some mistakes

keii4ii

It took me a long time to realize that Flaws =/= Problems

Deo101

I'm learning and getting better youre gonna have to bare with me here

Nutty (Court of Roses)

are you kidding i still get crit on stuff i made TEN years ago

Deo101

Mhm

keii4ii

omg

Deo101

Well its not a competition

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Same, Nutty

Nutty (Court of Roses)

True sorry ;;

Deo101

Ur name just changed colors keiiii

You: flaws =/= problems Your name: im ascending

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

I think...learning how to like not be bothered by negativity that much is a skill. Super freaked out one time when someone said they didn't know what's going on when reading HotV whoops

(turned out they just had to re-read a bit and it was just webcomics being webcomics)

Deo101

I had a group of readers say they were co fused and one person asked me to explain the last 2 chapters and i was like "holy shit am i being this unclear????"

Its stressful for sure

Nothjng wrong with being concerned with ut

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Keiiii has reached a new plane of existence. The blue is unrefutable proof

Deo101

Its something you're passionate about and you want to be as good as it can be

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

Yeah...

Deo101

So any critique, regardless of validity will be something you WANT to consider

Which is fine and theres nothing wronf with taking things to heart like that

But also if youre Happy with it that's all that matters

You gotta be your #1 fan kinda thing

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

I'm personally super uh...yeah I am having a hard time dismissing criticism

even if it's in bad faith, haha.

keii4ii

The #1 fan thing sometimes reminds me of that scene from Lilo & Stitch

The scene of Lilo's rag doll. It's been years since I watched it, so memory's a bit fuzzy, but I think all the kids were showing off their dolls, and Lilo wanted to show off hers too

but the other kids didn't like her homemade-looking doll, and it made her sad, almost not like her doll for a moment

but she picks up the doll again afterward

There are days where I relate to that. I never not-love my story and my characters, but sometimes I feel like everyone else has a low opinion of it, you know?

and I'm like lonely Lilo hugging her rag doll in the sad corner

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

Yeah I totally get that and...loving what you do first and foremost is really important. I don't think in a medium like webcomics you would be able to keep going

keii4ii

I'll always love my Doll but I do wish this little corner weren't so lonely, kinda thing

Deo101

I feel that keiiii

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

Hmm

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

When the ‘critique’ is detrimental it does become a problem. Like that ‘friend’ I was talking about earlier who bashed Eryl to bits. He told me to ‘read some Stephen King’ to learn how to write. I was making a high fantasy story, not a horror story. The writing of a horror author is simply not applicable to building a good fantasy adventure story. That’s when I knew he was full of shit. But the damage had been done, and I lost all motivation for the project for years.

keii4ii

uuugh, I'm so sorry that it happened to you D:

Deo101

Also this story is one that i have dropped and picked up SO many times, and its wildly changed over and over, and so i worry a lot im not making it in its final form, i suppose. I worry i started it too young, and so critique of the older parts hits that anxiety

Wow lee that's terrible...

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

Gosh...

Deo101

Also you can't really compare Novel writing to comics imo. The structure can be compared but...

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

I think HotV is like a project I've worked on since...2008? And it changed with me and I feel pretty confident that it's in its final stage.

keii4ii

and not every story needs to be a Stephen King story

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

But yeah, you can really not compare writing for novels to writing for comics wth

nah

tbh it's weird (I like King personally) but his stories and also his writing do have flaws too so

what

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

I actually do use novels as a source to study how to construct my comics. But! Studying the right genre is important. I’ve the feeling the only books that guy read were Stephen King, so that’s the only kind of story he was familiar with.

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

God when I was still developing a picture I did got featured somewhere and someone criticised the way I did knees and linked to the picture of another artist going: Hey draw knees like that

Deo101

Every story will have flaws, its impossible to make one that is perfect. Well. Its impossible to make a story thats perfect for everyone. So alk you can do is try to make a story thats perfect for you!

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

Agreed, Deo

keii4ii

^ THAT REMINDS ME

Deo101

Omg

keii4ii

(going back to the original question) With no response, or negative response, one thing that helps me is hearing other people gush about their beloved unpopular stories!

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

Hmmm

Deo101

!!!!!! Me too!!!!!!!!!

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

I am having this problem and went to ask on twitter what ppl loved about their projects

and that's really uplifting somehow

Deo101

I LOVE reading other comics and just seeing how much passion is in them its like a light

keii4ii

I need to remember that just because someone, or even a lot of someones, thinks a story is trash, doesn't make it the universal truth

Deo101

^^^

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

I WILL GUSH ALL DAY BOUT MY BELOVED UNPOPULAR STORIES and once you open that damn I am unstoppable. You will regret it, trust me.

keii4ii

And people gushing about their unpopular favorites is an excellent way of reminding myself

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

hehe

Deo101

I have been very lucky and have had a few incredibly kind people who i can remember fondly when i worry my story isnt reaching people. I Know it has touched a few lives, and if it makes even ONE person happier (even if thay person is me) then im doing my job and its worth all the time and effort.

That was kind of off topic i swear it connected in mt mind

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

Absolutely

I feel it's connected

Deo101

Phew

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

bc hmm it's a way to deal with times when there is not much engagement?

Deo101

Aha! There we go yes :)

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

I do generally write very off-beat, unpredictable stories because I like reading / watching those kinds of things. A lot of my favourite movies bombed at the box office because they weren’t formulaic, which was what I loved about them.(edited)

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

Remind yourself that there is people who enjoy what you do and who are happier bc of it C:

Deo101

Mhm ^^

Also i have my characters on a shirt so i can just wear that and be like "fuck yeah. I have a shirt. It cant be a bad comic if I've got merch babeyyyy"

Which admittedly is a very odd way of dealing with anxiety

But like.... You should get your Characters on a shirt.

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

dfhwioufheuf Deo that's cool tho

I made so many like...background designs and posters for HotV and some of those I WANT ON A SHIRT

Oh I think what also helps me is to find a friend and just talk about the comic?

Deo101

The place i use lets you get up to 6 items a month as a sample order and it's severely discounted my shirt was like $15

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

I should do that. I have designed some T-shirts but that wasn’t for personal stuff.

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

omg

keii4ii

I'm actually in the (long) process of re-learning how to talk about my comic

Deo101

And yeah for sure having people i csn talk with/joke with about my comic helps soooo much

Like the fact that i know these 5 people will get my jokes like this

THAT helps a TON

These people actually are the reason I was confident enough to be able to start after having a bad friend drive me to almost drop the story for good

So having their support is probably one of the biggest things thst helps if no one else engages.

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Okay, so on the original subject of ‘How to deal with no feedback’ I do talk about my stories a lot with my two best friends. They are my biggest fans and my sounding boards. They let me go on and on about plot threads in my comics and it’s one of the main reasons I keep going. Even when I get 0 reaction online, I still have two people who I know are reading the comic and think I should keep going.

Deo101

Or like, when my family is being homophobic about my work kinda thing. Friends are good for that...

Yessss lee having people you can talk with about it is SO good

keii4ii

ngl, I'm jelly of those of you who have go-to support friends who are genuinely into your story! That's something I hope to have some day, myself

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

I don’t know whether to give a sad react for homophobic family or a happy react for supportive friends

Deo101

Happy react ^^

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

Still sorry about your homophobic family tho, but your friends sound awesome

Deo101

Yeah but :> I know I'm doing good work. Again those few people who i know my story has touched.. i know I'm doin good work.

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

@keii4ii Just know I’ve been an acid fan of your comics for over 10 years and honestly think they’re some of the best comics I’ve ever read

AVID

NOT ACID(edited)

keii4ii

Hey acid is important too

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

GOD MY PHONE

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

hiodcnioefwe acid

love this

I have one friend who has supported me since 2007 and I can always count on her freaking out about my comics Y_Y

so when I feel especially bad I turn to her

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

My phone is old and the keyboard lags and autocorrects like AAAAARGH(edited)

Deo101

Its okay same here lee

Typo club babeyyyy

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

I have to edit almost every comment I make THANKS A LOT PHONE

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

shakes fist at ur phone to be more kind

I can't type on phone at all so...

keii4ii

Yeah, swipe-typing is high level sorcery to me

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

As someone who’s normally a grammar freak it causes me great pain that my texting is a syntactical disaster.

Deo101

I've been doing swipe a bit lately so it doesn't hurt my hands to text (I Tex too much)

keii4ii

This actually makes me wonder

What are some good, safe(ish) ways to reach out to people who may be 1000% willing to become that Support Pillar for your comic?

Deo101

I just straight up start doing it

keii4ii

For all I know they exist. But.. Schrödinger's pillar

Deo101

And gague the reaction

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

As an antisocial gremlin who hides under a rock, I have no idea.

Pakky

never hurts to ask

keii4ii

@Pakky You would be surprised

Deo101

Start sharing art, see if theyre curious, get deeper if they're good with it, kinda thinf

I've got friends who like to see my art but don't really care about my comic, and you kinda just gotta take it case by case

Pakky

mm fair enough, i always try to be supportive of content creators mostly because i would hope for the same in return. theres a lot of bluntness in my industry so if you do well you get praise but if you do poorly, you very well know it :/

keii4ii

Me: "Thank you for supporting my humble comic!" (this wasn't even asking, just thanking) Reader: "Well, your comic isn't that good." Me: "?????????"

Deo101

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

I’ll be honest, on the rare occasion a reader starts trying to get really close to me, my dumb brain freaks out and I put some distance in because I have Issues for days.

Pakky

thats just rude on their part

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

what

holy fuck

keii4ii

I've Been Burned

omg, that question mark react is so appropriate

Deo101

I've chatted with some readers here or there but I don't know if id wanna use them as a support pillar

I kind of have trained myself to think readers as fickle.

If they get sick of my story, theyre allowed to leave

They dont owe me their time or energy and them being here is a gift

So I'll chat and stuff and answer questions but unless someone is my friend i will not lean on them for support.

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Honestly it’s happened that I’ve gad readers try to get really close or be my sounding board, and I think they were just trying to be enthusiastic and supportive but my stupid broken brain always panics and goes WARNING STALKER ALERT WARNING ABORT ABORT.

Deo101

Hey better safe than sorry

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

juppp

Deo101

I'll chat but i wont give personal information and im not gonna like, get all into spoiling everything im planning lmao.

If someone asks me a question thats a spoiler ill answer it in private

But bringing raw ideas up for help... I need very specific people for thst.

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

The thing is they weren’t even being creepy or trying to get really personal. They were just very friendly and I apparently can’t handle that. ><

Deo101

The friend group i get writing helo on are all writers, and they all understand my vision. They don't write stories like mine, i dont write stories like theirs, and we all fully understand our suggestions may go unfollowed.(edited)

Also whoever put the eye emoji yeah if u have a question straight up dm me and I'll answer.

keii4ii

It's okay, your comfort is important. If you want to be more open, you can work on that. But not everyone has the same comfort level and that's okay too

Deo101

Yes! Its all about what you're comfortable with

But I've personally got a small curated group of writers/artists who all circulate our work between eachother

Which i know is very rare.

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

Same, Deo...helped me a lot and I also know who to turn to when I'm down about engagement

Deo101

Mhm ^^

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

(also they are all perceived better than me so I believe them if they say sth nice)

Deo101

Omg

That group of people have done SO much for me honestly. Im thinking about them. I love my friends.

Also dont worry its nit all about me they also talk about and we help their work too i wanna be sure thats clesr

keii4ii

I figured it was all mutual! but now that you've said it's not all about you I'm suddenly imagining The Cult of Deo

That is 10000000% wonderful though

Deo101

I walk in and I'm like "y'all check out this new millennium lore" and they all take their hoods off and start scouring it for plotholes

keii4ii

Whilst sitting in a circle (a magic circle to be exact)

Deo101

Of course of course

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Damn, that’s awesome! I only see my friends every few months so I dump a lot of plot on them all at once, and it’s harder for them to give really detailed critique. XD

Deo101

Oh, I do this all online

Irl I sit down with my sister and we talk for 4 hours and Lose our voices LMAO

Cronaj

Good convos literally ALWAYS happen while I'm at work

keii4ii

I'm still here

Cronaj

Good, because it made me sad when you said you didn't have a support pillar

And that readers are fickle (which can be true)

But I don't think you know how much I love your comic

keii4ii

I'm seriously honored! I still fear that maybe people are not seeing the story I'm trying to tell, and are following the comic for some other reasons (which is valid, just not what I'm trying to achieve). But hey, I'll never find out if I don't keep going, right?

kayotics

keiiii, i love your comic and i think it's beautiful in many ways, not just the art

but also, on the topic of lack of engagement... I'm pretty fortunate in that my spouse is always really supportive of my comic, so when I need a little pep talk I can always ask them

sssfrs

I’m trying to collect as much negative feedback as I can so that I’ll know my comics strengths and weaknesses and I’ll be prepared to take criticism as it comes in the future. It is pretty frustrating having no response or fanbase right now but I started my comic pretty recently and theres still time for growth

Glowbat (Aloe)

when you're collecting feedback be mindful that there's a difference between constructive criticism and people being unhelpful and simply telling you they don't like your work

the latter wont do anything but bruise your self confidence(edited)

keii4ii

Yeah, and sometimes even well-meaning critiques can miss the point too, like if it comes from someone who thinks your work should be X, when it is intended to be Y. Easy example: My previous comic was a depressing drama centering around a terminally ill young woman and her doctor, and once someone told me I "needed more fight scenes." It wasn't even an action comic! In that case, the lack of fight scenes was not a weakness. It simply meant the comic wasn't for that person.

DanitheCarutor

On the topic of lack of engagement. My answer is really boring, but I just keep working on my comic regardless of how much/little engagement it gets. I never intended or expected to have an audience to begin with since my comic has sooo many problematic elements in it, whenever I get feedback it's super nice! Always a surprise, like seeing the machine light up when winning $500 on the penny slots! (In a way, getting engagement is kinda like gambling. You post a page and you may or may not win some comments in return... Not equating real people to items to win, of course!) Admittedly, if there is a page I feel would cause reaction but I get nothing, it is a little sad. It's not the end of the world, though! I got a story to tell, and as long as I can still draw I'm content.

kayotics

i relate to that a lot, Dani. I also never intended to make the comic for anyone but me, so the fact that anyone reads it is really exciting to me.

Cronaj

@keii4ii (Potentially off-topic, but is there somewhere to read your other comic(s)? Or are they all in Korean?)

DanitheCarutor

@kayotics Every so often I look at my reader base and think "Man, there are people into this kind of stuff??" It's an almost surreal feeling.

kayotics

Yeah I get it! I wouldn’t say mines too out there but there’s so many other fantasy dnd inspired comics out there that they could read that I’m surprised they even glance at mine.

AntiBunny

How do I deal with it? Usually experience a series of emotions such as "how hard is it to leave one little comment you losers?" Then "Who am I kidding, no one is reading this, I'm creating into a void," and finally pry a few comments from people who know me personally, reassure myself that I create out of a compulsion to tell my stories even if no one's reading, and start the process all over for next week. Not exactly a healthy method I admit.

keii4ii

@kayotics There is only one Toivo out there

@Cronaj aaaa the previous one was in English. But I would not recommend it It's unfinished (though it does have more than 600 pages IIRC) and honestly really rough.

kayotics

@keii4ii true....... one weird wizard boy

Cronaj

Dang... I LOVE medical stories. I'm seriously addicted to them. @keii4ii

keii4ii

I enjoy them too and I appreciate your interest!

Cronaj

scours the internet for the lost records

keii4ii

The site layout is also broken so yeah...

I guess another thing I do is try to comment more on other people's comics, to rec them publicly, etc. Being the change I want. I don't do this as often as I want, but I think/hope even the little bit I do counts.

mathtans

Heh, I'm basically with Cap'n Lee in terms of a cycle. I think part of my issue is I won a fanfic competition in 2004, and it's kind of been downhill since. I've posted regularly to a serial site for over 4 years, accumulating 300 posts, and last month it had 100 total views... there's been 2 comments since March.

On the actual comic side though (not serial) I've relaunched it more than once, and tried to flag the more recent index as a starting point. And yeah, just hold on to the few good comments, like the guy who applauds me for continuing to post even though I only have 10 people following on Tapas.

These days, of course, I'm too darn BUSY to really think much about the lack of engagement. So one solution might be to get married and have a kid. Then you're just happy when you manage to get content out, never mind if anyone remarks on it.(edited)

Mharz

Popping here just to answer the question becos it's interesting. The lack of engagement was a bane in my existence and honestly one of the factors why I had to see a psychiatrist. My doctor told me I have self-esteem issues which leads me to seek validation from strangers. This is the first thing I work on. I have to be confident enough to not break even if nobody likes my stuffs. Which means I have to love myself first. (People prolly see me as vain at this point) Second thing I do is keep a mentality of "nobody has to care. They have things going on as well" which helps me appreciate the small percentage of people who actually took the time to engage, talk, and be friends with me. I also try to put a positive spin on it. "Nobody cares therefore I can make as much noise on my social media as I want and no one will bother criticizing becos nobody cares." If people unfollow, it's on them. It just means they're not really a fan of my work and I shouldn't waste my time. And if my mental illness is too much, then I will disconnect from the online world a bit. Treat myself. Do something fun like gaming and baking and hang out with friends IRL if possible.

Mharz

I sometimes think it's karma on my end becos I'm so vain, I rarely get interested in anything so I'm not really a fan of many stuffs so that is something I accepted as well.

AntiBunny

Perhaps being a webcomic author sort of goes hand in hand with needing validation.

MJ Massey

OH BOY ARE WE TALKING ABOUT A LACK OF ENGAGEMENT?!

over the past week, I got 24 users. Granted, I didn't update, so that's probably why

So this is a four month overview of my website traffic. I hit a high of 184 unique users in August, and after that it plummeted to just barely over 100. And I hadn't really done anything different

I have never really gained a lot of traction with my comics. I'll admit that Black Ball definitely has more appeal than my last comic, so I have slowly been building an audience with it, but it's still been very slow. Sometimes it feels like I have to adhere to some extra set of rules while others can just throw up their comic on Tapas and have instant success. Of course, that's not the case at all

the key is to remember "why am I doing this? isn't it because I love making comics?!"

and to keep on pushing, keep up that hustle, and enjoy the ride. Make great content and it will be rewarding in and of itself

carcarchu

I'm not really sure it's as simple as simply throwing something up on tapas and getting instant success. there's a lot of work that goes behind every comic even if you don't perceive it

MJ Massey

well yes of course, I'm just saying sometimes it SEEMS like that

I'm a marketing professional, so I know there's a lot of stuff that goes on behind the scenes

Glowbat (Aloe)

theres, i think, a lot of factors in certain comics gaining traction faster than others that are mostly out of a creator's control. on mirror sites like webtoons or tapas you have to factor that more attention is given to certain genres and art styles over other because of what that crowd likes. if they're into slice of life romances in anime-esque styles then someone who writes fantasy mysteries in a more western influenced style may not get as much love as they deserve

its tough out there

ive been fairly fortunate to gain a steady bit of followers on tapas but on webtoons my reader engagement and subs are significantly lower

Glowbat (Aloe)

i chalk it up to the type of crowd

MJ Massey

I've been analyzing my audience and my work and have a hypothesis that my work just works better in bulk format. I think 2020 will be a year of transitioning into bulk distro instead of the page at a time format

and see if that helps. As well as some new marketing techniques and getting back into the con circuit

Kabocha

A lack of engagement... This is definitely... a topic. I feel like, sure, one's general marketability in any given platform will definitely make it easier or harder to attract an audience, but on the other hand? It's also worth making sure you kinda figure out what you want out of webcomics. Some people have been working on their projects (or existing within a fandom) for years - decades, even at this point, which can be a big boost to initial readership on a new project! Other people just have the advantage of being able to sit down and advertise, or having someone do that for them. Personally, though. I went in not expecting to get an audience, and for a long time, actively avoided even having a comment section on my site. I just enjoy making comics and creating things - and if it happens to make someone happy, that's awesome. But comics and art aren't the only thing I do in my life that make me happy, and I've found engaging other people directly about things like comic craft and resources to be about 100x more fulfilling than posting comics themselves. (And it is fun, sometimes, to gush about my OCs and how dumb they can be.) But how do I cope with it? Eh, it's honestly not a big deal to me. It feels less stressful in some regards, because the dayjob can get hella hectic, and trying to balance "OH GOD COMICS" with "OH GOD THE SERVERS NEED PATCHED ALL NIGHT TONIGHT" can be.... interesting.

(But oh god, I will admit, having someone come up to me and say, "I read your thing or used your photoshop/csp brushes" can be incredibly motivating. But other days, I have to be my own motivation, so...)

kayotics

Sometimes it’s helpful to keep a list of really nice comments or to write down memories of when someone told you they like your work. This can take a while to gather but if someone says something nice about your work, keeping it somewhere safe for a day you’re feeling bad can help boost that morale

It also helps me sometimes to think about how there’s a TON of people who never comment on things, but they’re probably regularly reading.

MJ Massey

Totally! I was building a landing page for my email subscription, and I was able to go back and find old reviews from my last comic, and it really got me pumped

Kabocha

Yeah! When I worked in a call center, the metrics on calls in -> surveys was something like... At best, you get 10% of your callers leaving surveys. And it's usually because you left an impression (good or bad). Usually the reality was at best, you'd hear back from about 2% of your userbase unless you gave them an incentive them to say something.

Mharz

re tapas and other platforms: I have to agree that certain genres really are more appealing there. I have two comics with different genres that I regularly update and the numbers are literally like night and day. It's a sad truth.

Mharz

I also love getting notifs on tapas when a person is binging my comics and liking every update. It means I got them hooked. :'3(edited)

nice reminder that there ARE people who like my comics.

Kabocha

Well yeah - even in traditional publishing, some genres generally get larger readerships than others (and higher advances) because they're more easily marketed. There's a reason why some publishers will categorize what's basically a fantasy story with romance subplots as a "romance" overall for a relatively unknown author (it's because they're more likely to attract more readers because romance is HUGE)

MJ Massey

true that

and you have to find where you audience lives as well

Kabocha

Yeah... I have some readers who only engage when they come back to catch up, which can be every 6weeks or more. Some only read when a chapter is done being posted, which is about every six months.

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Re: Tapas. Yeah, Tapas especially has very particular styles and genres it likes (anime style + romance, especially BL). I posted Children of Shadow there for six months and had 20 total subs before taking it down. A while later I tried posting it on Webtoons and got 60 subs in one week. That level of engagement slowed down considerably almost immediately though, because the prologue episode is in colour and the main series is greyscale - and I discovered the hard way that the majority of Webtoons’ users do not like greyscale (I even got rating-bombed over it). My second comic is doing much better on Webtoons since it’s in digital colour rather than pencil like Children of Shadow. Each platform has its specific interests and it can be a struggle to get noticed if you’re not making something that falls into its normal styles and genres.

Glowbat (Aloe)

both tapas and webtoons really dont push their scifi comics hardly at all. Tapas' top scifi section is littered with discontinued stories (at least theyve abandoned tapas at any rate idk if theyre for sure no longer continued) which means that because i update weekly and sorta fall into a semi-anime inspired style i get some decent traffic from the small demographic who go hunting for a scifi comic

RebelVampire

That's not that surprising, tbh. Even in the realm of novels sci-fi is more of a hunt for where the audience is sometimes.

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Scifi is an under-appreciated genre, imo. Unless you’re Star Wars, Star Trek or a Marvel comic, it seems like people don’t talk much about scifi.

It might help boost views if you rework your genre labels on places like Webtoons. Like, have Adventure or Drama as your main genre tag and Scifi as your secondary genre.

Glowbat (Aloe)

actually ever since avas demon went on webtoons ive been getting about 10-15 subs a week there

for a while i had listed aloe as drama first but the results werent fantastic as i think that genre has been flooded over there

keii4ii

I think sci-fi has some very prominent associations with the genre that don't apply to every sci-fi story -- e.g. the first thing a lot of people immediately think of is spaceship explody battles. So if someone sees sci-fi and they're not into spaceship explody battles, they won't read.

Glowbat (Aloe)

i may try adventure though if scifi doesnt pan out

keii4ii

Alternatively, if someone sees sci-fi and they ARE into that... and only that... they will leave once they find out the comic is not about that

Glowbat (Aloe)

thats also a good point

keii4ii

I've had similar difficulties even though fantasy is more widely accepted these days as a more varied mega-genre

People expect X, comic contains only a sprinkling of X and is about Y instead.

Glowbat (Aloe)

in my personal case, i've alienated potential readers i feel sometimes simply by having the cast be primarily lgtbq with an agender lead. but i dont regret that and im happy to have it deter people who arent down for that

RebelVampire

That is definitely true about sci-fi. Film has really biased people as to what fits sci-fi, where in reality sci-fi is a really wide genre. So a lot of stuff never gets a chance cause it confuses people.

Nutty (Court of Roses)

Yooooo i feel that, glowbat. On one hand, I want ppl to know that my comic is a safe read for LGBT, but at the same time I know that announcing it as such will deter others on principle.

The Q - working on WAYFINDERS

I feel the same way. The whole cast of Wayfinders is some form of lgbt+, but we don't actually adress it much, because it's an adventure story moreso than a romance. So it's like.... how do we tell the readers it ain't straight

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Fantasy does seem to get drowned by numbers. Eryl gets about 5 new subs per update and Children of Shadow only gets 1-2, and I think they’re just getting lost in the crowd.

Nutty (Court of Roses)

Two of my characters jokingly told each other their identity through bard puns, plus I keep pushing for gay ships within the story, so I'm pretty overt with my readers about it ahaha.

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

@The Q - working on WAYFINDERS I’m having some difficulty with that dilemma, too. Both my comics feature large LGBTQ+ casts but romance isn’t the focus of either. It often feels like there’s no good way to bring it up naturally until the romance threads surface very far into the story, and I’m always worried about homophobes lashing out when they eventually discover the comic is G A Y

Glowbat (Aloe)

in my descriptions i describe the comic as a lgbtq+ themed scifi flat out

keii4ii

Early in HoK, one character embarks on a journey for a personal reason, and the MC tags along. I've semi-recently heard from an American friend that she didn't really get the character's reason. He wanted to take a younger family member away from a bad living situation, but to the friend, the situation didn't seem so bad. After some talking, we realized it was a cultural thing. The situation was very obviously bad to Koreans, but it didn't/doesn't seem like a far departure from the range of normal life in the US, for cultural/societal reasons. I suspect that was a big part of the reason why people kept pegging my comic as a "fun adventure romp" despite the lack of fun adventures (it has elements of adventure, but is not that as a whole). The reason for the journey seemed superficial, like the author (me) just needed an excuse to start the Fun Adventure-Filled Journey. Whereas Korean readers, back when I was publishing it in Korean, immediately understood it was an intensely personal, difficult task that the shy boy decided to accept for the sake of love.

And yeah, LGBTQ+ as a tag/ part of the description seems like a good option to me too!

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

But then I’m also anxious that LGBT folks will think that’s false advertising because the characters’ labels aren’t mentioned until really far into the story (and it’s no where near that point yet). Aaaagh maybe I just overthink everything.

Glowbat (Aloe)

its really interesting to hear the difference in reception HoK gets

keii4ii

Yeah and the setting itself apparently feels different, too! To Koreans, it evokes secondhand nostalgia. But some non-Koreans have told me it feels fantastical and Ripe For Adventures

Glowbat (Aloe)

I feel you Lee- almost none of my chars have mentioned or done anything to illustrate their identities yet

keii4ii

(I also feel the need to mention, there have been non-Korean readers who got what HoK was about. Those readers mean so much to me! But I don't know if they understood that particular detail about Danbi's motivation for the journey early on.)

The Q - working on WAYFINDERS

(I'm gonna put so much lbgt+ love in the background of the story everytime they get to a new city ahahahaha >:) )

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

To me, @keii4ii HoK is very reminiscent of Studio Ghibli films because I get similar whimsical vibes. But Studio Ghibli has always been more about emotional journeys so after a couple chapters I was like ‘Ah, yes, I think this comic is about the characters’ emotional growth’(edited)

Holmeaa - working on WAYFINDERS

(muhahhaa, also just let Sallly flirt with all the ladies in the BG)

Glowbat (Aloe)

yesss flirt with ladies

MJ Massey

I'm worried that my comic is not "gay enough" to warrant the LGBT+ label. The character's sexualities have very little to do with the actual story, and one character is actively hiding their identity

The Q - working on WAYFINDERS

SAME

keii4ii

I'm aro/ace/agender and I don't really feel "LGBTQ+ enough" so I can't really use the LGBTQ+ label for my own comic, even though I know the label isn't exclusively for ownvoices stories.

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

I admit I’m not sure I ‘got’ Danbi’s motivations on a cultural level, but I felt like the tone being presented in that scene made it pretty clear she was in a bad situation?(edited)

Holmeaa - working on WAYFINDERS

but... we have calculated a total of 1 straight character in our whole comic.

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

‘She’ as in the niece, not Danbi. XD(edited)

MJ Massey

that's what it seemed like to me too, or at least that by leaving their village they were going to a better situation

Glowbat (Aloe)

first of all- high fives keii because agender solidarity and second of all if you have chars who identify as either not straight or not cis or both rolled into one then its gay enough to have the lgbtq label

to heck with gate keepers

there are plenty of queer peeps who just want to read stories that casually include people like themselves

but if you dont feel its needed you dont have to either

MJ Massey

I guess there is a certain expectation when you say "I make an LGBTQ+ comic" of how that comic will be, and I don't want to disappoint people or set them up to expect something different

I just figure that all kinds of people exist in the world, so I should include as many different kinds of people as I can in my work

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

I probs should just put LGBTQ+ labels in the descriptions and be like ‘this is genre fiction but almost everyone’s queer even though you can’t tell yet’. XD

Nutty (Court of Roses)

I use the term "LGBT-friendly" to indicate that they're present, but might not be the full focus

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

I write genre stories because I’m not that into romance-centric stories myself. I want queer heroes in the kinds of stories I like to read without the entire focus being on their sordid love-lives. I just want to read about the hero who slayed a dragon to rescue his prince instead of his princess, lol.

Glowbat (Aloe)

lol im in a similar position where i'd rather see the hero befriend the dragon

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

I have plenty of that in my comics, too!

There’s some nice dragons and some very-not-nice ones. XD

Glowbat (Aloe)

(im insufferable in d&d i was a bard who tried to be friends with everything)

eryl is on my lisssst <3

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

This is why I love bards

Glowbat (Aloe)

hehe

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

I'm always happy when people mark their stuff as LGBTQ+ if characters are present tbh Y_Y

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

Also agreed with everything said above

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

All right, now Imma definitely have to add the LGBTQ+ labels to my comics next time I do website maintenance.

Glowbat (Aloe)

yay!

Nutty (Court of Roses)

Aw ye aw ye

Join the brigade

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

yiss

I feel a bit bad bc I rarely read sth that's not clearly marked as LGBTQ+ or where I know the authors are part of the community whoops

But it's mostly the fact that I consumed hetero-focused media my whole life and now I can...choose.....

the dream

Glowbat (Aloe)

heck yes

im way more drawn to stories that are marked lgbtq+

keii4ii

Don't feel bad, because seriously, even if you exclusively read LGBTQ+ marked stories? There ain't enough time in this life to read every good story that fits that bill.

There are too many good stories out there and we do need to choose.

Glowbat (Aloe)

its just nicer because then i can enjoy the story without having to worry that in the middle of it im going to get a rude wake up call from an off colour joke or somethin at my expense

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

yeah that's true

keii4ii

Sometimes we miss out on stuff that we may have fallen in love with, but that's the name of the game, the game of not having enough time

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

Webcomics feel a lot safer than other media in that regard atm

Jupp especially if you're also working on your own stories

Glowbat (Aloe)

it sucks thinking theres a bunch of stories out there that im sure id love if only i had the time or mental fortitude to sift through a bunch of others.

keii4ii

(OTL that reminds me... there is one instance of trope use in an early chapter of HoK that falls into that 'off color joke' category. I don't have any excuses for it, just 'I just thoughtlessly parroted a trope that I saw elsewhere.' I regret it and hope to figure out an elegant way to rewrite that one scene.)

Glowbat (Aloe)

i dont have the energy to be burned so often by stories that seem good and then hit me with random transphobic bs or using slurs as jokes

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Yeah, as someone who grew up in a time when no one positively portrayed queer folks in mainstream stories (and there was no internet and living out in the boonies made it impossible to discover underground cultures) I love that now I can seek out tonnes of LGBTQ stories and drown myself in the gay every day.

Glowbat (Aloe)

yesss

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

jupp ;;

Glowbat (Aloe)

man if i could give ten year old me printed copy of paranatural and turn to the pages with rj's identity being explained? that kid would have grown up way happier

living in small towns aint great for queer peeps

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Nope it’s not. I was badly repressed until honestly only 3 years ago when I suddenly asked myself why I loved reading about and writing so many gay characters. And then suddenly my whole life made sense.

Glowbat (Aloe)

im so happy for you<3

Glowbat (Aloe)

its a heck of a thing thinking back on things and realizing why you do certain things

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Honestly there were giant clues from when I was still a little kid and I can’t believe it took me so long. XD But I’m digressing from the comic talk, lol.

Glowbat (Aloe)

haha i understand what you mean

i think its why its so important for comics to be inclusive

spare some poor kids the heart ache and confusion

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Yes! The internet has created such a boom for indie comics and that huge variety of voices has been so so important.

Glowbat (Aloe)

as much as comics are an art, they're extremely powerful as a vehicle for teaching and generally conveying ideas

FeatherNotes

Can i just say how happy i am that y'all are making LGBTQ+ comics that aren't just romance tho? I'm pretty indifferent and on the ace spectrum for sure, so its so refreshing that we can have a queer cast just being cool and not hurt by identities. I wish i had that as a kid

Also no shade on romance but there's def a lot and lgbtq+ isn't just for that genre

So yes yall are 'gay enough' lol

Glowbat (Aloe)

i agree! queer peeps shouldn't be squared off in romance, which unfortunately i think is a result of people's gross misconceptions

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Admittedly, I use my comics as a vehicle to work through my own issues, so there are scenes planned where the characters have to deal with transphobia or homophobia. But I will always counterbalance that with other scenes that validate the characters’ identities.

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

Hmhm my story also deals with transphobia and dysphoria bc I'm working through own issues. I don't think that's a bad thing though

generally I think it's pretty ok if the story is not a constant misery train

(even those can be written well, but they are usually not my cup of tea)

Glowbat (Aloe)

i think its perfectly acceptable to use comics as a vehicle for that lee

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

yeahh tbh

MJ Massey

there's no wrong reason to make comics/create a thing

Glowbat (Aloe)

youre a queer creator and you're working with what you know so why not

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

I know focusing on queer suffering has been criticised a lot but I feel there's more nuance to it. Especially if it's a LGBTQ+ person writing about it

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Yeah. I’m a miserable emo and I write miserable emo stories, but I try to inject some hope into it, because I think that the majority of humans are good and/or want to be good.

Glowbat (Aloe)

theres this comic called dropout that does a wonderful job exploring the grittier truths of being queer

its a fairly short read but its super good

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Hmmm, I may look that up

Glowbat (Aloe)

i can dm you the link! no pressure to read it tho

twothirty

gosh, i just want to chime in because i really relate to earlier comments around labelling comics. I'm bi, but i don't wear it on my sleeve, and my own comic has like...1 straight character. I feel like there is an expectation for comics labelled as lgbtq+ and i don't want to disappoint people who are really looking for that content to be directly addressed.

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

Tbh I feel many people are just happy, if there's queer characters doing cool stuff (at least that's how it's for me).

Glowbat (Aloe)

i label my own comic as lgbtq+ and the plot hardly hinges on that being the central theme

just a bunch a gay scientists and robots in space

...i swear its way more interesting that that lol

man i wish i could get more of my comic out faster so i didnt have to worry about spoiling basic things geeze

twothirty

haha im into it! Ahh, well probably a big part of it is my own insecurities, but what are webcomics for if not... for figuring out your own crap (edited)

keii4ii

I feel that X'D

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

juppp...I get the anxiety tho

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Mess of anxiety solidarity.

Glowbat (Aloe)

oof yeah

also hey while we're at it with the queer biz in here:

aro/ace/bi peeps are all gay enough full stop

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

YES

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

jupp

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

As a demi-bi dude I fully endorse that all labels are valid.

And that gatekeeping sucks and helps no one

Glowbat (Aloe)

yeah anyone who makes you feel like you dont belong under the lgbtq+ umbrella isnt doin right by you

and your comics should be allowed to be considered as queer as you want them to be

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Also all gender identities are valid and don’t hinge on having a physical transition. You’re valid as trans whether you change your body or not.

Glowbat (Aloe)

^^^

YES

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

YESS

Glowbat (Aloe)

all our experiences are valid and the comics we make because of those experience are beautiful

Deo101

Oh man I missed a huge convo, but I love y'all and it's wonderful seeing so many kinds of comics out there and seeing people make their own content

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

Yo, nothing "gross" about romance, and the reason people flock to it is because romance with same-gender couples and/or trans people has been treated as "deviant disorder that needs to be cured and cleaned up, or at least kept far away from polite society" for so long (and still is, in many places)

All queer stories are valid, queer characters don't need to be in a romantic storyline to count, but please let's discuss that without echoing homophobic rhetoric about queer romance being "gross", yeah?(edited)

MJ Massey

I don't think it was meant gross as in queer romance itself being gross, but more in the finding a general distaste for romance tropes and romance as a genre

but I agree, that we should be careful about implying those sorts of things with our work

keii4ii

Romance as a genre is valid too; the consensus was just that there's a lot of it, and other genres are valid too. That every genre is valid

MJ Massey

true, but people might just feel strong distaste for certain genres from a personal point of preference

it's part of what makes the fabric of human existence so fascinating, we all have different opinions, likes, dislikes, viewpoints...

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

tbh I love romance stories but the thing that disheartens me is that the queer stories people take most serious are romances

keii4ii

The pigeonholing

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

Can you elaborate on that Keiiii?

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

Those are the stories that get repressed and erased the most, is the thing, so it takes more effort to get them produced and shared, and that makes people extra-happy

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

I don’t think anyone said romance stories were gross?

Just that it’s not necessarily our jam.

keii4ii

Oh, I meant that's what people are doing when people start exclusively associating a very diverse experience/ group of people with ONE thing, to a point where the people in that group are not allowed to be anything other than That One Thing

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

I was reacting to "queer peeps shouldn't be squared off in romance, which unfortunately i think is a result of people's gross misconceptions"

keii4ii

and it's a really unfair, inaccurate restriction

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Ahhhh

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

OH okay, thank you for elaborating, Keiiii. I couldn't really associate anything with the term at first!

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

Misconceptions are the reason queer people have been excluded from most romance for so long

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

I think in that case it was more about people's misconception of queer identities being inherintly sexual and/or romantic though?

and not about queer romance being gross

DanitheCarutor

Huh, I thought 'gross' in that context was more akin to 'outlandish' or 'exaggerated', but I could be misunderstanding.

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

I think it means more that a lot of people fetishise queer relationships when there’s only representation in romance.

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

Associating "queer people being sexual and/or romantic" with "gross" is still hella dicey

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

the misconception is what's gross, not the queer people or their romance?

Glowbat (Aloe)

re: gross misconceptions :Oh! i think i said that Erin- i don't think i did a great job of explaining my thoughts on that. on sites like tapas and webtoons its fairly common for gay couples to be exploited for an audience thats less interested in representation than fetishization(edited)

MJ Massey

yes I think there was some lamenting that it could be difficult to show queer characters without an element of romance to make their identities apparent?

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

I don’t think they meant gross as in disgusting but gross as in ‘far off the mark’

MJ Massey

because some people wanted to have queer characters but not focus on a romantic plot

@Glowbat (Aloe) I know what you are talking about I think

Deo101

Yeah, though I'd like to add on as someone who is writing LGBT romance, I get lumped in with fetishization content a lot and that is very frustrating for me, too

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

And it does take a lot of digging to find respectful representation in romance instead of stories made by and for straight people that use bad stereotypes to fetishise queer relationships.

Not that all romance by and for straight people does this.

But it’s a problem in the genre

Deo101

I work very hard to portray healthy loving relationships and people lump me in to their hatred of romance in general or categorize my work as bl or discount it for having that. It gets fetishized or dismissed an awful lot and that's very frustrating for me to see happening

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

If you want to talk specifically about something you feel is stereotypical or fetishizing, I wouldn't object to that, it's the broad swipes at all romance that become a problem

Glowbat (Aloe)

agreed

queer romance is very important to represent

i dont think anyone here would imply otherwise

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

And, hey, sometimes queer writers/readers also enjoy a romance that's unrealistic or trashy or silly or melodramatic, I don't want to dismiss "all romance that wouldn't represent a healthy and respectful relationship IRL" either

Glowbat (Aloe)

very true

Deo101

Yeah, not what I was trying to say.

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

Idk if anyone was saying that tbh

Glowbat (Aloe)

i think our initial conversation though boiled down to that we were happy to see stories with queer people being allowed to just be people doing things that didnt focus on romance

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

I'm personally very glad that we are getting a wider variety of queer romance now

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

What we were discussing earlier is more that it’s important to portray queer protagonists in all kinds of genres, instead of only romance. Which doesn’t mean romance isn’t also a valid genre.

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

Sure, and part of my discomfort is that queer characters have already been "allowed" to do non-romantic things in mainstream media for a long time -- it's being "allowed" to have an explicit romance that's new and different

keii4ii

^ I don't know about that. It probably depends on where you are, both IRL and part of the internet?

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

I never saw a queer character that wasn’t either tragic, a deviant, or the butt of a joke in media until the late ‘O0s(edited)

MJ Massey

both views are valid--it's good to both want explicit queer romance and to also just want to see queer people doing a wide range of things

DanitheCarutor

@Glowbat (Aloe) Yeah, to parrot what you said. I just chalked the convo up to seeing queer characters expand into different genres, and being happy that queer fiction is starting to be known for more than just romance.

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

There was no positive representation in any genre in the media I had access to for most of my life(edited)

Deo101

It helps with the normalization of stories like that, but I also think it makes homophobes be "more comfortable" with gay stories sometimes in a way that bothers me

I have had someone say that my story is the only bl they can stand so I'm sensitive about this subject though

Cause there's a lot to unpack there

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

The "if there has to be a queer romance, at least make it awful and tragic" trope was absolutely true in my area too

yikes, I can see being sensitive about that

Deo101

Like me writing something that primarily isn't romance and just has a romance b plot is making homophobes and fetishizing people read my work and that's frustrating for me in a way I can't articulate. I'm very happy within the LGBT+ community to have these works be made but among the straight people I know it's uncomfortable when they start saying things like "oh yay finally some gay stuff that isn't romance" kind of thing

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

yeah that makes sense

Deo101

From other gay people I get it, it makes sense and I'm the same way! Especially with the oversaturation of bl

DanitheCarutor

@Deo101 Gah I got a comment like that before, it was a weird situation because not only was it unnecessary but... TGtaHR isn't even a romance...

Thinking about it, that's actually kinda worrying.

Deo101

But it's important to remember that the LGBT+ community is a bubble and though it's safe to explore all sorts of stories here, it's not safe outside of our bubble

Or, not necessarily safe

Like a homophobe reading a gay story with an unhealthy dynamic could just bolster their bad opinions about gay people even if it's exploring it in a healthy way

I have a hard time explaining what I'm thinking and I really hope this all makes sense

keii4ii

I get you

Glowbat (Aloe)

(i get what youre saying deo <3 )

Deo101

And its not something we can really change but I think it's important to remember with regards to society at large and how our stories are percieved outside the community

Phew lol

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

I get what you're saying, although in that case, the homophobe was probably going to think that no matter what, and if it wasn't the story they'd find some other "evidence"

Deo101

Yeah absolutely

And I think it's important to remember that when talking about exploring stories that have unhealthy Dynamics and things other than romance and whatnot. I don't want those things to become safe for cishets to exploit basically

Like "oh great now I don't need to write them kissing so I can access BOTH the LGBT and everyone else!"

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

Ah, you mean like "the author says they're gay, so that counts as representation and LGBT people should buy this, even though there's never anything explicitly gay in the story"

right?

Deo101

Yeah

Deo101

Which again within the community I get and it's important to explore things like that for sure

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

I think the important difference is, writers within the community are going to do something to indicate the queer identity, even when it's not "having an on-screen romance"

And that's something that, say, your average JKR doesn't bother doing

Deo101

Again I have a hard time explaining myself and I might be tripping over my words a bit here

Yeah that's true as well

I trust LGBT people to be navigating stories with an inherent nuance

For the most part

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

That, or (I think people were talking about this upthread) we don't advertise a story as "look at all this representation!" while the characters' identities haven't come up in the comic yet

Deo101

Yeah I know I didn't say my story was LGBT til I had the married couple kiss cause I was worried people would think I was gaybaiting

I know I'm not but it feels wrong to me like I'm trying to rally up readers kinda thing...

But also if you know you're planning to do it I feel like you can say it'll be there

I just have anxiety LOL

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

No, I get you. Even if it's definitely going to happen in the future of the comic, it'll disappoint readers if you rally them up for something that isn't there yet

That would happen with anything, not just queer identities

Deo101

Yeah I also don't tag my pages or whatever for disability if a character isn't disabled on the page

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

Like if it was "read my comic for cool space battles!" when you had only posted the 5 pages of setup with characters having a chill talk in a field

sssfrs

I think what bothers me about lbgtq focused romance stories is that they’re often centered on how ~scandalous~ the relationship is and how the characters have to overcome personal biases or homophobia/transphobia as the central struggle

Deo101

I don't want the wrong audience. I mean I also could probably slap bl on my cover and I feel like I'd get a lot more readers but they're not the readers I want

sssfrs

Or at least I dont enjoy reading stories like that

Deo101

Yeah that frustrates me too, personally

But some people like seeing that overcoming idk

sssfrs

My comic has at least 2 visible prominent gay relationships but its not about romance at all

I guess thats personal preference(edited)

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

I think a lot of the time you also know what intentions the person behind telling a story like that has? I have a straight aquaintaince writing BL and it's totally clear that she thinks the whole ordeal is kinda cute and endearing when it's pretty...harsh for actual queer people

Deo101

Mines got 5 and it is about romance cause I absolutely love romance and I love love, but I am overly frustrated with romance as a genre. Which is why I write my own

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

I think that goes back to the "talk about a specific trope that bothers you, don't treat it like the whole genre" thing I was saying

Deo101

Yeah I think there's a lot of nuance to it that cishet people largely don't have

sssfrs

I feel like it makes the romance into a statement about how society is bad and its not interesting or groundbreaking to represent that bigotry in your media without adding something new

Deo101

I'm frustrated with the often unhealthy Dynamics and the frequency with which homophobia and transphobia are shown.

I live in a homophobic household I don't want it in my romance cause it hurts to see

But, I don't think it's bad to tackle those issues it's just hard for me personally

sssfrs

I like pairing up side characters but only 2 pairs are going to have an Arc. so far....

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

I...feel for many cishet authors it's also a good excuse to not have the characters get together right away without actually thinking about why they would not for other reasons (like personality based). So there's a lot of "I'm not gay!!!" type of thing

Also totally understandable Deo :C

Deo101

Yeah absolutely.

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

It’s also valid, as a queer author, though, to show characters that do have to overcome their ‘gay panic’ when they first realise they’re gay. It’s something a lot of us have gone through, but it’s important to show the comfort you finally feel in yourself when you come out the other end if it.

sssfrs

Why should fiction include all the shitty parts of real life

Deo101

I think straight people see LGBT authors tackle these issues and go "oh so I can too!!!"

And yeah this is why I'm largely drawn to sci-fi and fantasy, I get to entirely remove all the things that hurt me about reality. Dude can just use a cane and everyone is like dope

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Because sometimes fiction helps us process all the shitty parts of real life. Both happy stories that take away shit and gritty stories that acknowledge shit are valid and important

Deo101

Ppl can just be trans and it's fine

I agree they're all important

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

(I think I'm just super bitter bc here I've seen cis and straight women get awards for their queer romance stories which just hmm)

Deo101

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

I agree it's a super nuanced topic

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

...I feel like you've also gotta make some allowance for bad writing. Like, maybe someone's not getting a lot of nuance in their story because their skills aren't sharp enough to handle it yet.

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

Agreed, Erin!

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

And one of the ways they'll get good enough to write better stories is by working out issues through writing the worse stories.

sssfrs

My main character is a butch lesbian gnc completely androgynous person and no one is ever going to say anything nasty to her about it

Deo101

I feel you sssfrs lol(edited)

Deo101

I thirst for gentle, nice LGBT stories. I just crave them

Nutty (Court of Roses)

I feel that. As I build Prismal and decided to include lgbt folks in it, my first thought about it was "would there be any reason for them to be hated in this society? No? Then why would I include that theme?"

Deo101

And yes it's important to delve into the harsher realities and I think it's good to use fiction to explore and work through those themes, definitely, but personally no thx

sssfrs

I like where ppl are just all expected to be pan or bisexual by default

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

heh, I literally have 2 comics and one of them is "real world where characters struggle with realistic prejudices" while the other is "fantasy world with 0% homophobia/transphobia."

Something for everyone!

sssfrs

Nice

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

I’m too goddamn miserable to write such nice stories, lol. But writing gritty stories where my characters go through hell helps me process the stuff I go through in my life. But I love reading those nice stories where we can forget racism and queerphobia exist.(edited)

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

hehe...I've decided to go into some queerphobia in my next comic only bc I want to...explore historical queer spaces and the kind of space does not make sense in a world that's 100% accepting

Deo101

Yeah it's just all about that nuance babeyy

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

yeahhh

Deo101

I think that's also why we see so much more LGBT content of all kinds in indie media

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

Absolutely

Less gatekeeping, less opportunity for homophobes to shut it down

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

No big boss complaining it’s not ‘marketable’ to be inclusive

Deo101

And I worry that mainstream stuff will be like "ohoho, so that means I can do it too" *stumbles and sets gay people back 10 years in the eyes of the general public *

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

YEEEEEEAH there’s that

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

I think the mainstream is going slow enough that that's far from my biggest worry

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

But change never happens smoothly

Sometimes it goes up and down before society evolves into a better mindset

Deo101

Well yeah ofc, but even on a smaller scale of bad people reading good works it is kinda happening I feel like

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

So there’s gonna be periods of shit before being queer is faithfully represented in the mainstream

Deo101

Yeah for sure

It helps normalize things but it also can do it in an unhealthy way and it's frustrating

As in people going "yes let's include gay romance *it's just bl tropes *"

And things like that

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

I think the best way to counter that is by producing & supporting more stories of all kinds -- the more complex and multifaceted a view people get, the better

Deo101

Yeah

From people who are handling those stories well, too ^^^

Which is subjective of course I know that

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

Also, something nobody's mentioned that I think should come up...a lot of times you don't know who's straight/cis and who's not. Like, if it's Famous Mainstream Author JKR, you can be pretty sure, but with small-scale indie creators, how much can you tell the difference between "straight/cis artist who thinks BL tropes are how all real gay relationships work" versus "gay/bi/trans/etc artist who understands IRL fine, but it's fun and self-indulgent for them to write those tropes"?

Especially since the artist could be actively in the closet. Or could still be on their own journey of self-discovery and not know they aren't straight and/or cis yet. All the more so since indie creators are more likely to be younger than well-established mainstream standards.

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

I don’t know about you guys, but it’s always BLATANTLY obvious to me by how they’re writing.

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

How did you confirm it? Did you ask them?

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Call it intuition

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

I don't think it's always confirmable tho :C

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

Granted, sometimes a person writes with enough nuance that I can tell they're queer, but how do you tell a straight writer from an awkward/inexperienced/clunky queer writer?

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

I know a lot of authors thinking they were cishet and later on realizing they were not

and some of them wrote a lot of "yikes"

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

There’s writing patterns and use of tropes that signal whether the person is actually respectful if the queer community or not

Deo101

Also just cause you're working through things doesn't mean it's a healthy exploration that is good for the community at large

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Even if they’re queer and self-indulging, there’s a lot of tells both in the comics and in their commentary

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

tbh I think some tropes are fair to criticise no matter if the author is queer or not but there are also queer authors writing disrespectful tropes

it's not sth that I see a lot, but I've seen it

Deo101

^ yeah this

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

All questions of their writing aside, there are definitely queer people who don't respect the community IRL, either...

Deo101

Like it's not good to write glorifying rape fic of pedophilia no matter who you are or how it's helping you work through things. I mean you can write it but then to share it is something else entirely

Not saying those are common things but they're pretty very much "bad" things

And actually glorifying rape is something I do see much more than I would have expected

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

And that’s problematic, too. When you’re part of a community but not respectful of it, that’s just as bad as a straight person being homophobic. Sometimes the worst homophobia cones from within the community, but that doesn’t make it okay or healthy.

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

If you share a dark story behind accurate warnings and labels, then it can reach other people who are working through something by reading it, and be avoided by people who don't.

Deo101

Yeah there's a lot of lateral agression within the community

Okay but glorification of it isn't a healthy way to work through those things it's not a dark story

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

I'm not saying homophobia from within the community is okay or healthy, I'm just saying it doesn't have to indicate that the person is straight/cis.

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

I have a lot of dark themes in my comics. There is rape, but it is never shown on panel and never never glorified. I think it’s a subject that’s important to talk about, but I find it extremely disturbing how much it’s romanticised in fiction.

Deo101

^^^

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

yeah...

DanitheCarutor

Huh, this convo reminds me of an article a friend sent me from someone's Patreon. https://www.patreon.com/posts/25994657 It talks about creation policing, and problematic fiction. You all proooobably won't agree with it given the direction of discussion (which all points of view are totally valid), but this whole subject is super interesting.

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

All right, true, you can’t always know if an author is queer or not. I should have been more specific in whether an author has a healthy view of the LGBTQ community or not.

Deo101

So you might not be able to tell if someone is gay by their writing, but there are certain trends that gay people do not generally fall into that MOSTLY indicate someone is straight, though there's no way to know for sure.

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

THAT is always obvious to me.

Deo101

And like def there are bi women who fetishize gay men, and there is transphobia and biohobia and everything within the community

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

If they’re being homophobic or just don’t ‘understand’ the queer community, I mean

Deo101

Etc etc, so even if you can't tell whether a harmful representation is written by someone who is LGBT it's a harmful representation regardless

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

^^^^This

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

Yeah. I'm always very hesistant on how to address things like this

Deo101

Me too esp since I have such a hard time saying what I mean

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

I'm not saying it's impossible to write harmful representation, but "this is harmful!" gets used as a cudgel against any representation, so often that I'm wary of talking about it as a vaguely-defined blanket category.

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

It’s hard to articulate things clearly when in fast-paced chats like this

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

yeah, haha

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

At least it's good for leveling people up, huh?

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

eifhiuef pfft

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Lol. ‘You levelled up talking about homophobia!’

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

(I feel we're all respectful and try to explain ourselves and give others the chance to do so too)

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

At least it's good for something??

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

(so that's good haha)

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Yes. Talks like this are super important to help see each others views on tricky subjects

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

Yeah, I feel like we're making good-faith attempts to understand each other, which...is not something you always get in internet discussions

To put it very very mildly

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

We all have our own stories and unique perspectives, and that’s important to share both in the fiction we write and in discussions with each other

DanitheCarutor

@Phin (Heirs of the Veil) The subject is pretty sticky. On one hand artists should be allowed to create whatever they like, on the other if that work can perpetuate harm for a certain community should it be allowed? There is a lot of this going around right now where people want sanitization in media, and what works of art are and are not allowed to exist. Not saying it's bad, but it is fascinating. I'm not fully getting into the convo because I'm honestly super neutral.

kayotics

I’m definitely watching the convo play out, it’s interesting to see a chat like this develop

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

yeah I'm taking notes this is not my area of expertise, and it's all good stuff to keep in mind

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

I'm okay discussing & criticizing specific examples (which is probably why I keep bringing up Dumbledore...), but I don't like being critical of broad categories, because they can be so ambiguous & easily misused.

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

@DanitheCarutor I think it is very hard to differentiate between people who want difficult subjects to be explored (which is valid) and people who don't want to be called out for certain kinks for example and a lot of the times stuff like "purity policing" gets used to shut legit criticism up. On the other hand there are a lot of examples of callout culture gone wild and honestly ??? Idk anymore.

Deo101

Its very frustrating

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

But I'm also at a point where I'm getting super tired of constant discourse so

Deo101

Yeah I've literally had to block words like "ace" cause it's just so often discourse from either side and I'm just so tired of it

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Plus there’s always going to be stories that help one person work through things but that are very toxic and upsetting to someone else. Just like there’s people who are toxic to one person and important to someone else.(edited)

Deo101

I've also blocked LGBT and "feminism" kinda things

I JUST see cats and memes now thank you

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

Lee: absolutely, which is why accurate labels are important

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

Eyyyy, it's my turn!

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Yes

kayotics

I think it’s important to curate your online experience, and sometimes NOT curating your experience leads to purity policing

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

HMM

kayotics

But yes tagging is really important!!!

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

I think there is the creation of a lot of anxiety in what and what you can't tell in stories

Deo101

Tags are super important but also when someone doesn't think or realize they're doing something harmful they might not tag it

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Warning labels all around are always a good idea

Deo101

Like if someone is being a homophobe just cause etheyre homophobic they're not gonna tag that

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

True

Deo101

Why tag it's glorifying abuse if they think it's hot or reality and don't realize that's bad

Etc etc

kayotics

There’s definitely a lot of creator anxiety lately, I’ve had a lot of friends come to me with anxieties about not wanting to start a project they love because they’re afraid of who might attack them online

Deo101

^^^ I've been scared about this

kayotics

Me too, honestly

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

Same honestly

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

There’s always the issue if ‘should harmful ideas be given a platform’ vs ‘stifling voices you just don’t want to hear’ it’s a fine line.

Deo101

I once got all in a tizzy cause I was like "oh my god my planet of women is asking a man for help"

Yeah cause some free speech silences other's

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

Same

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

And sometimes you get people thinking "if I label this with a warning that it contains Bad Content, the internet police will come after me," so they don't use warnings for that reason, and then it's just bad times all around

Deo101

Yeah.

And also there are things no one thinks to warn about, like some very specific triggers

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

yeah...

Deo101

Its just all around a very difficult to navigate space

DanitheCarutor

@Phin (Heirs of the Veil) Right? People do that with anything, if it's not the "purity police" excuse it's "my style", or "I'm friends with -insert minority here-!" I don't bother with the arguments anymore since I've been pushed into them enough, I'm more into seeing opinion on general art policing, or what is and isn't allowed to exist in art. Sorry, I'm being slow at typing again.

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

Heck, if we're talking about actual psychological triggers, most of them are going to be super-specific

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

I have a trigger for fungal growth on bodies now bc I have 3 people who either have probs with plants growiing on bodies OR funghi lol

Deo101

Ya I have a "someone watching someone else sleep" trigger which people use a surprising amount

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

...wait, Phin, now you have a trigger, or now you use a warning for it?

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

@DanitheCarutor srsly don't worry about it, haha. It's a nuanced topic and I think generalizing is pretty bad when it comes to what you can and can't portray

I use a warning for it, sorry Erin, wasn't clear

I had multiple people approach me so I warn in update posts and should probs also do it on the website

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

no worries, just wanted to be sure

kayotics

I do have an extreme phobia of needles and you’d be surprised how many news sites use active needle shots for vaccination stories

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

GOD I KNOW

I am not afraid of them but like once they are near skin

I don't wanna see...these shots

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

I have a deathly phobia of vomiting and there are NEVER warning labels for it.

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

yeah I think most people don't regard it and sometimes it's hard to get everything...

a friend of mine, Eli, creates a very gory comic and they put all their warnings on their update post images

and I kinda wanna try to be similarly mindful?

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

(I’m okay if it’s in a comic and off-panel or the gross part is not shown but the sound and sight are crippling for me and shows and movies just SHOW it all the time)

kayotics

That’s true. Not a vomit fan.

DanitheCarutor

Ah I've thought about using page by page TWs, and I tried it out with one page, but with the amount of triggering thing in my comic I decided on a general warning. (since almost every page would get a warning) A few of my readers also said they preferred not to see them due to possible spoilers.

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

Hmm...I have a list of possible triggers in my about section

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

I probably should start doing that bc my comics get very bloody

kayotics

I know I’ll have a scene eventually that I’ll want to have a warning on, but I’m not sure how to warn for it without spoiling?

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

I installed a spoilertext plugin on one of my comics for that! Now I can put specific warnings at the front of a storyline, and readers who don't have triggers & don't want spoilers can leave them hidden.

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

OHH that's a cool idea

DanitheCarutor

Yeah, mine is like a general pop-up that you have to click on to proceed to the comic.

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

I’m going to have to look at that plugin. Potential spoilers are the only reason I don’t have really detailed warnings on my comics

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

Here's the one I use: https://wordpress.org/plugins/inline-spoilers/

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

Yeah I'll look into it too. It seems super useful.

Heck thanks Erin!

DanitheCarutor

I don't know how you could make a warning without spoilers, @kayotics! I mean, you might have to if you want to do a page specific one.(edited)

Sorry, my cat sent the message for me.

kayotics

I was thinking a page specific one for the upcoming scene.

So I’m glad that doesn’t seem weird

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

I'd say super-general warnings are mostly not spoilers. A movie will say "contains graphic violence", and that doesn't tell you who's being violent, or why, or how it's resolved.

DanitheCarutor

^^^

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

yeah, I think that's not a spoiler, especially if the comic was already violent

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Yeah. I have warnings for things like ‘graphic violence, blood and gore, nudity, etc. But some chapters or pages probably warrant more detailed TWs.

Deo101

Yeah I'm gonna put in my a/n for a few updates before like "hey there are some spooky scenes comin' up!'

kayotics

I wouldn’t say my comic is already violent, so it’s more applicable for this one scene

Deo101

And yeah things like "watching someone sleep" is gonna be at least somewhat of a spoiler...

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

hmhm

DanitheCarutor

@kayotics I think it really just depends on the person too. Some readers like page by page TWs, and don't see them as spoilers, others are the opposite. Your readers might appreciate a warning more than mine since your comic isn't overall super graphic.(edited)

Gah I can not type today!

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

I put "this will get bloody" before some of the vampire storylines, not spoiler-cut -- because it's not a given, but shouldn't exactly be a surprise, either.

Deo101

I also do not mind spoilers whatsoever and I WILL spoil to anyone who asks as I've said many times, but I know not everyone is like me and spoilers are a big deal to many people

"i don't mind spoilers" i love them and they make me enjoy things more for many reasons

DanitheCarutor

Ah same! I'd love to just spill everything!

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

(Deo high five bc same)

Deo101

My people

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

tbh spoilers got me interested in many comics and I actively spoil myself

like getting into new comics and reading the updates before jumping to the beginning haha

kayotics

I’m very much the opposite

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

I don't want to spoil anything, I want to keep people guessing! But sometimes you gotta.

Deo101

Yes. I get incredibly stressed about whether or not things will work out and spoilers relieve that. Even if it doesn't work out like at least I know

I get so so sooo stressed about it

kayotics

Whenever people tell me spoilers I actively like content less

DanitheCarutor

I don't mind them myself. My mom absolutely hates them, and used to make me spoil every movie if I saw it before her, so I'm pretty alright with it.

Deo101

Yeah ik many people are that way

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

yeah I also think that's fair

DanitheCarutor

Also spoilers don't affect me either since it's not the content that means anything, but how it's used. Imo

kayotics

Usually for me it’s like. “Ok you spoiled a major character death/reveal, that’s not fun for me anymore”

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

OH yeah Kay! Tbh

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

If there's a big twist, I want to be unspoiled the first time I watch/read/etc the thing. If it's handled well, I can always rewatch it again with the knowledge.

kayotics

Because then I don’t get to experience that anymore

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

that's sth that can also ruin a story for me

kinda didn't get into the current season of CritRoll bc of such a spoiler

with comics it's kinda like...I see them on twitter, read along a few updates and then jump to the beginning so there I don't mind spoilers at all

it's more scoping out if the story's for me

Deo101

Oh man I sometimes only get into things because of spoilers LOL I know I'm weird with this but genuinely I love spoilers so much they make me comfortable with what I'm watching. I love rewatching things cause I know how it goes down and I'm not stressed by it

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

I sometimes have troubles to deal with...raw emotions towards media so spoilers help me with that too

like preparing myself for it to hurt

(not always tho)

Deo101

Right yeah for sure

Even if I know it won't work out I KNOW and I don't put energy into getting my hopes up

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

I hate spoilers, personally. I love going into stories completely blind or with just the bare-bones ‘genre, overall theme’ because I LOVE being shocked and surprised and have plot-twists thrown at me, so that’s what I do with my own comics(edited)

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

yeah that's also fair. Right now my brain's not in the mood for that so I gotta play it save hehe

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

I still don't like saying "here's what the Beings are" in ads or sales pitches for BICP, even though the page where it was revealed is several years old by now

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

But everyone likes different things so there’s nothing wrong with giving spoilers for your own stories if people want them(edited)

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

yeah it depends honestly and that's pretty okay.

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Everyone’s different and everyone’s valid

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

I don't spoil my own story, except with artworks and mostly it's without context or cryptic enough that it's not...a real spoiler

yeah!

in that regard, it's just a huge matter of taste

twothirty

i also jump into webcomics, read them backgrounds for a bit then realized im actually into it and read it properly haha

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

hahaha yes

If I get invested without context I know it's good lol

Deo101

I don't spoil on public platforms cause I know people don't wanna necessarily see that (unless it's in an ama but I try to avoid spoilers still) but in private? I'll spill whatever tf u want like

I have and I will again!!!! Lmao

I know no one is gonna write it like me and also it's p linear so the only spoilers people really ask are Character things not plot things, anyways

So I'm not worried about theft im not doing anything super wild or original lol

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

all my favorite panels I've done are all the most spoilery ones, so... whether I share them or not, I lose

Deo101

Aw man

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

SAME

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

nooo

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

but it makes sense! I put all my effort into those moments where the story twists and turns

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Some of my fave panels or pages are when big reveals or plot twists happened

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

and it shows

so meh, I'll live

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

So I can’t share them to people who haven’t read my comic yet XD

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

luckily they don't make a ton of sense out of context, but... as soon as people start reading they might be like OHHH I know what's coming now

but it got them reading so shrug

I guess all mileage varies

Deo101

I feel like even the way I talk about my comic spoils it LMAO whoops

I'm made out of spoilers I can t hold them all in very clumsy

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

haha

I feel the same a lot

(But I also just wanna scream 24/7 about my stories whoopsie)

Deo101

I once had readers asking me to sum up a chapter caus ethey were confused and I just waited til someone else did it cause I was worried I'd spoil Something in trying to sun it up

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Linear stories are good too, though! Just reading a satisfying, well-written story is great; there doesn’t really NEED to be twist and turns for it to be food.

Deo101

Who doesn't wanna scream all the time and their stories hahahahha

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

GOOD

NOT FOOD

GAH

Deo101

Millennium is yummy yummy yum

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

...for the in-universe version of spoilers, I just had a moment of "hang on, this scene could've been way more dramatic if this one character hadn't already been given a certain reveal last chapter"

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

good food, agreed

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

Normally I get away with not having a long buffer prepped ahead of time, but for once I wish I could still change this

Nutty (Court of Roses)

i spoil a lot about my characters more than i do the plot lol

i mean except their backstories sometimes

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

Oh :C sometimes it's like this, Erin. Reasons buffers are good, but when do you have the time....

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

I've tried putting this one on hiatus to prep a buffer, but it turns out I need the deadlines and the regular feedback to push me through making the pages...

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

oh I see. Understandable though...the only time I create real buffer is when I finish a book for print and have a deadline there.

(I wanna try to actually...get better though, since I wanna start a second comic project)

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

I mean, sometimes if there's a process that works for you, you gotta just go with it and not waste energy fighting it. Even if it's not the Best or Most Professional way.

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

yeah that's true. It's just frustrating when you compare the work you get done in these phases vs. every other time.

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

Clearly the solution is to split it up into smaller books, so you have more print deadlines!

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

haha, that might be!

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

I need buffers or I get super stressed. Unfortunately I also find them difficult to keep up.

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

Buffers are very hard to keep up. I'm running out of mine next week, whoops

But I've already started working on new pages

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

I have...a half-finished, past-deadline page open in another window right now, lol

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

I haven’t been able to draw for about a month, so one comic’s buffer is getting low and the other’s going to either miss this week or be late.

And I’m stressing about it. -_-

sssfrs

I’m so excited for my story to progress. I’m tempted to talk about it but when I am I think that nothing I say casually will be as impactful as just letting the story actually play out

Desnik

I deal with lack of engagement by throwing my ideas (or myself) at people. I learned that keeping secret twists as spoilers was inhibiting my growth as a writer, so instead I talk through my plots with my writing group and I often walk away with much better ideas to write

We're a kidlit/MG/YA group and I'm writing in a similar fashion, so we usually don't have to warn each other about anything we're writing, which is its own kind of freedom

if I can get the content to be good enough, and land in front of someone who'll help me take it further, then the engagement will follow

keii4ii

(This the right place?)

Deo101

Speaking of a lack of engagement, i feel like my engagement rates are incredibly low. I get a good bit, i get comments on every page and im very happy with that, but it's odd that i dont get more given my amount of readers and I wonder if some comics just aren't the kind of story people feel a need to say anything about, or what?

I think so?

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

My engagement rates are... almost nonexistent.

keii4ii

I TOTALLY GET THAT DOUBT

When my anxiety is bad, it gets... really bad. "Maybe my story isn't worth commenting/ there is nothing to talk about it." I know that's just anxiety, so I try my best to not listen to that voice.

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Although I think my audience is just not there? My page-views are pretty low, too, so maybe I just don’t have enough readers to comment (outside of you awesome SF perps)

PEEPS NOT PERPS

MY GOD THIS PHONE

keii4ii

Yeah, my views are fairly low too, considering the sub count I have on platforms

Come on, phone. We're not criminals. (Probably. )

Deo101

Yeah, its just weird when i have like. 1000 readers on tapas and get 0 comments i guess? I do kinda feel like my comic is very.... Its very linear its character driven and people can onky say "aw cute ^^" so much so idk what they would say

Like its legit .1%

keii4ii

hides the bloody knife

Deo101

ITS IN THE FLOWER POT!!!

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

I was getting about 1k daily views right after I joined SF but now it’s back down to about 100 a day, so shrugs

keii4ii

Views though, it's natural they spike like that even if you retain 100% of the people who checked out your comic!

because typically, people only go through the old pages once

so they give you more views upon first visit

Deo101

^^^

keii4ii

But I 100% understand the worry of "why do people check out my comic and decide not to read it... is there something wrong with my work"

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

On webtoons I think I have relatively good engagement for Eryl considering my low sub number. I have about 350-some subs and get an average of 1-2 unique comments per page, though that number goes up when a character dies. (edited)

That’s true! They do get kinda ‘falsely’ inflated when people binge-read archives

Deo101

Most comments i ever got is when I said "tell me your pet names"

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Lmao, I should try that

Deo101

And then outside of that when luzio and sage do something cute is the most I get like, organically just frim my content

Amas are second most comments which are again, me starting the discussion

Maybe alk my authors comments should be like "tell me about your fave color" that'll inflate my stats

keii4ii

One person told me they don't comment because everything seems so obvious, and they don't wanna be captain obvious. Which I can respect. But I don't think everything is that obvious if the most common comment I get is "I'm lost"

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Hmmmm

Deo101

Hahahahhahahahah

Like "NO PLEASE SHARE THESE THINGS"

keii4ii

IKR

Deo101

Help everyone else out!!!

keii4ii

There is a term in Korean comment section culture

"Konan" (from Detective Konan)

It's a term for commenters who explain obtuse stuff for other readers

Sometimes you'll even see comments like "Hurry up, Konans! I'm too tired to think! Spoonfeed me what happened in this update!"

Deo101

Me reading every comic ever

keii4ii

I NEED A KONAN IN MY COMMENT SECTION

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Honestly I wish western readers did that, but they either get attacked for being ‘Captain Obvious’ or people scream SPOILER!!!! at them

Deo101

I really wish people woukd expkain for me too because then i know some people get it, but ALSO i dont want to explain things i didn't show, accidentally.

snuffysam

one thing i've found that helps with engagement is making sure to include something on the page for people to talk about, no matter how relevant it is. like a while back i had a (in my opinion) fairly boring scene where it's basically "where do we gotta go" "i'm not telling" "please" "ok you gotta go here" so to give readers something to talk about i had one of the characters take a hotdog out of a pokeball and eat it.

keii4ii

There was also this incredibly, incredibly obtuse comic. It had a fascinating hook but then became almost impossible to follow. You'd see comments like "so this is the Forbidden Realm that even Konans cannot enter."

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Hahaha

Deo101

I try to make every page have something, i usually have 3 goals i want a page to accomplish but it's not very... Fun i guess? Its just kibda like "yes this happened"

keii4ii

It's also kinda sad when you DO put something important to you, and nobody says anything (or worse, says "so when is it gonna get interesting???")

Deo101

Yeah...

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

So once I spun this theory on a comic by picking it up from context clues. And I was like ‘Hey guys, what if X character is the dragon???’ and everyone was like ‘WELL DUH IT’S IN THE HOVER TEXT.’ I read comics on mobile where hover text doesn’t always work, and after getting sneered at for something ‘everyone knew already’ I was put off of ever being a Konan type again.

Deo101

I never read the hover text unless its by accident I just dont think t

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Yeah. And it wasn’t obvious from reading without the hover text so I was really proud of myself for figuring it out. But it just goes to show how rude commenters can scare away well-intentioned ones.(edited)

keii4ii

aaaugh D:

snuffysam

tbh i'm not sure why an author would put something important in the hover text where mobile readers can't see it. or tbh in blogs, side stories, etc. if it's important to understanding the main story, it should be in the comic.

Deo101

Yeah that's what im thinking... Hover text should be for puns

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

It was revealed later that chapter in the main comic, but apparently it wasn’t a ‘secret’ like I thought it was.

keii4ii

Bleeeh, sorry that happened to you. >_< This is why we can't have nice things

Where is the nearest Konans R Us, I want to order one for each of our comics.

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Yeah... I’m very socially anxious / awkward so I’ve been scared away from quite a few comment sections. I still read the comics and buy them if they go to print, but a negative commenting experience usually discourages me from ever participating in the discussion.

keii4ii

100% understandable

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Which is why I feel it’s super important for the creators to moderate their comments (or hire a good moderator if they don’t have the time). A lot of comment sections get toxic if the author is lax about fostering a positive discussion environment.

Deo101

That makes me feel much better about the times ive asked people to cut Something out or deleted comments.

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

I appreciate that effort very much.

Deo101

I worry that its "disengenuous" or something and if someone has a negative opinion I don't want to be like "nope you're ONLY allowed to be nice to me!!!" But it's not good, i don't think, to let people feel safe being mean In my comments.

keii4ii

Yeah, there is being critical, and there is being mean

Deo101

So I rarely do it but I have and I don't feel any guilt over the times i have

Right

keii4ii

Sometimes a comment can tread the fine line between the two and it's really annoying that it's not Obviously, Blatantly Mean

Deo101

Yeah hahahahahhaha

keii4ii

But I try to remember that I too have walked that line unintentionally and obliviously, back when I was younger

Deo101

Right. I have too

I was like "oh man I am so smart and im about ti IMPART MY KNOWLEDGE ON YOU!!!" *Is a jerk *

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

That one comic I was talking about earlier: the author had a hard time keeping up with moderating and eventually took comments off the main site. It was 100% not her fault and she was herself getting emotionally distressed from the amount of negativity in the comments. Especially since the comic itself is really thoughtful and has a lot of messages of acceptance.

Deo101

keii4ii

>_<

Deo101

Uhh but yeah! Does .1% feel like about what y'all get as far as comments:readers goes?

.1-.2

I feel like i have no actual gague for this lol

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

It varies from comic to comic (for no quantifiable reason, usually) but that is about right. 99% of readers are lurkers.

Deo101

Dope, I was worried I had like super low numbers when talking with some people and it got me worried about my content

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Plus subs don’t necessarily translate to active readers. A lot of people just never clean out their library after they stop reading something / subbed it to read later and never got around to it or left the site entirely.

Deo101

But I've also just got a lot of anxiety about what im producing and how it's percieved in general

Yeah ik

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

I can see people binging my archives from my stats but maybe 1 in 100 or less leaves any comments.

snuffysam

on average, each subscriber to my comic has posted about 45 comments total (which is like 0.07 comments per subscriber per page) if someone clicks on a page (subscriber or not), there is a 0.5% chance of that person leaving a comment.

Deo101

See for me its like. 1 in 1000 leaves a comment...

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

(It’s okay I get anxiety over it, too)

Deo101

Yeah i was gonna say uhhh whats it called

Shoot i lost mt train of thought.

Right. I feel like the longer a comic goes on tbe less frequently people engage

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Yeah, I’ve noticed that in my comics, too.

Deo101

Like less readers will have made it to the end, more will be inactive, etc

snuffysam

i've found that my active commenters take a jump in early march (i.e. right after the comic's anniversary), and any time a book ends (since, i guess people like seeing how all the stuff that's happened in the book culminates)

Deo101

Oh that's an interesting note

snuffysam

i suppose that's some other advice on increasing engagement - give a reason for even caught-up readers to leave comments. one thing i've been doing is redrawing old pages and releasing the redraws on anniversaries, which gives reason for people to re-read.

and for end of book stuff, i suppose people are more willing to predict how something is going to end when it's close to ending

Deo101

Hmmmm

I'm taking notes

twothirty

seeking validation through comments is my downfall, because i just dont seem to write a comic that has the type of readership who is into that. What helped was just looking at google analytics and being like "oh right, of course people read this, its clearly here in this data" haha.

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

twothirty, same. It's kinda hard to get out of that mindset.

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Raises hand I need constant reader validation and get depressed easily when there isn’t. It’s not healthy, but it’s really hard to break out of that mindset.

Deo101

Im not seeking validation through comments, but when i have thousands of readers and get only like 5 it does make me look twice and start wondering if there's something I'm doing wrong.

And yeah it's hard to break out of the mindset

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

Me constantly atm haha

Deo101

Especially if you've bee. Hurt in the past and you feel like people secretly hate your work because... In the oast they have

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

I wonder if it's actually...a change in how people interact with media nowadays?

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Oh yeah, definitely, Deo. I got so much negative feedback when I first started posting webcomics and it still sticks with me today.

Deo101

Yeah I've been lucky where people have been mostly nice to me or otherwise just indifferent which makes it so I don't have a super negative experience that my anxieties latch onto

And its STILL hard

Because words of affirmation is my love language lol

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Partly I think it was because I was creating a lot of gender-nonconforming characters in an era when that wasn’t well-accepted in Western comics (reminder that I was surrounded by a veeeery conservative environment at the time), and partly because my skills were just not what they are now. There were a lot of nasty comments from both strangers and people I knew, and it was really tough to work through. I think if I hadn’t had the Tomgeeks forum to hang out in, I probably would have given up.

(For you young’uns, Tomgeeks was a webcomic list site and we had a really tight group in the forums. A lot of that old crowd are now in Spider Forest).

Kabocha

(Sorry, saw the tomgeeks mention! I remember aspiring to be in that group one day, but I was a lil' too much of a noob back in the day.) A lot of media is kind of... Sometimes you need to put a call to action to be like, "HEY LEAVE A COMMENT!" or something - else, they forget in a lot of cases, but ofc that's no guarantee.

keii4ii

Re: people being less willing to engage the longer a comic has been going on, that is definitely a thing

I think it's called archive burn or something

and I feel it too sometimes, as a reader. I feel like I'm not "allowed" to start reading a comic unless I can find a big enough chunk of free time to finish the archive in one session

It's 100% irrational but... it is a thing

I've found that I don't experience it IRL, with physical books. The end of each volume is a really good stopping place

snuffysam

then i suppose a problem is that webcomics don't really have stopping points you can physically see like physical books like when you're reading a book series, you know where one book ends, but when you read a comic you don't really unless you check how many pages each chapter has

and even then it's hard to keep that in mind when it isn't physical

mariah (rainy day dreams)

I definitely understand that feel. It's kept me from doing a lot of the book club comics because I'm like "I got ten pages in, but that's not enough to comment" T_T

snuffysam

maybe someone could program a widget for comic sites that works similarly to the page indicators in ebooks. like "you're 40% of the way through the chapter, and at your current reading speed you have 10 minutes left"

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Comic Rocket!

mariah (rainy day dreams)

Does Archive Binge also have a feature like that?

I feel like they might... I don't use those kind of readers so I'm not super familiar with them.

snuffysam

archive binge lists what page you're on and how many pages the comic has, but there's no reading speed thing no

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

I don't know. I'm technically on Archive binge, but didn't get any subs there so I didn't look into it past creating my listing. I don't use those services myself because I like a nice long archive to work through, but I know that comic Rocket shows you how much of an archive you've read.

snuffysam

also, the thing i'm talking about would be for chapters as well as the whole comic. because if there is a big archive, people like to know how long they have before a good stopping point

mariah (rainy day dreams)

I'm on Archive Binge. I don't think I have any subs either but definitely get traffic regularly as if I did. How even does internet work ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

snuffysam

i guess recently updated?

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

I usually check out the archive page of a comic to get a good idea of chapter length, myself. So I know if I'm in for 10 pages chapters or 100 page chapters. Plus, idk, I have no problem stopping anywhere and picking it up again later, but I may be a pretty atypical reader.

Lmao, I have no idea how the internet works. I was one of the first people to list on Archive Binge and I have never gotten a single click from it. I get a steady number from Comic Rocket, though.

keii4ii

I wonder if it'd be worth experimenting with chapter numbers? Like, re-number existing chapters like "Season 2, chapter 2 of 15" instead of "chapter 20" ?

Deo101

^ thats a good idea

seeing "chapter 20" makes me as a reader go like, oh god, theres so many,,

snuffysam

^ that's one of the major reasons i label things "book X chapter Y" instead of just counting up chapters forever though adding "out of" is an interesting addition...

keii4ii

I'm nearing the end of season/ book/ whatever 2. I should give this a try

Cronaj

Lol, my books are going to be 3 chapters long each, so I don't think it would make much sense for me XD

keii4ii

Yeah, my chapters are short but numerous, so this might have a different effect than comics with longer but fewer chapters

Deo101

I'd be afraid of saying "out of" cause... well, i dont know how many heheh...

it all gets wacky when it comes time to actually make the thing

snuffysam

i mean, could add 'em retroactively as each "season" finishes

Deo101

oh thats true!

keii4ii

I would probably do "Chapter x out of [REDACTED]" (not that but something similar) when I start posting book 3

Cronaj

Yeah, my chapters are around 35-50 pages, so they're pretty long'

snuffysam

listing how many chapters are in book 3 would kinda spoil a twist lol, so i'll probably only do it retroactively

same lol

and some are 80 pages

book 3's going to have one 120 page chapter which is wild

Cronaj

I was thinking about printing 4-5 chapter books, make it more like a manga-length

keii4ii

You know, some comics (Korean comics do this a lot) do like... Chapter 10: Happy Day, followed by Chapter 11: Happy Day (2), followed by Chapter 12: Happy Day (3)

Cronaj

but full color printing is expensive

keii4ii

Dividing what might have been a single chapter into digestible chunks

snuffysam

i've split "arcs" into multiple chapters before, but unfortunately there aren't really any solid split areas in the chapter in question

Cronaj

and I doubt anybody wants to shell out $25+ on a 200 page comic

This is of course, a consideration for the future, as I don't even have the first chapter finished yet, but ya know

Come next year, I'll have some big decisions to make

@keii4ii Is that a webtoon thing? I've noticed that webtoons have shortish chapters

snuffysam

webtoons an entire chapter is posted at once

keii4ii

It's a Korean thing, which means Webtoons gets some of it

Cronaj

I mean, technically I post my comic in scrolling format, so I consider it a webtoon, but it's definitely drawn for print

@snuffysam, I mean the length of the chapters. The chapters (or episodes) are usually somewhere between 50-100 panels long, which is anywhere between 10-20 pages of a traditional comic

keii4ii

(Tangent, but as a Korean speaker I'm very weirded out by the word "webtoon" in English contexts. Over there every webcomic regardless of format is called a webtoon; I guess it's like anime/manga in Japanese? That in Japan, every animated show is anime, and every cartoon thingie is manga?)

Cronaj

Yeah, that makes sense

In the english speaking world, originally there were comics and webcomics, with little difference between except that one was posted online

but when Korean webtoons entered the English-speaking market, the naming conventions changed

The major difference being the prevalence of scrolling-format webtoons, which made people think that the difference between webtoons and webcomics is the format

but really, it's just a naming thing

You can call a comic a manga, and people expect a black and white comic in a specific style, but really, it's just a comic in Japanese

keii4ii

Yeah

Deo101

I usually just say "scroll style comic" or "page format comic" because im putting pages up on webtoons so it feels... weird to me

keii4ii

That too

IT'S A PICTURE STORY THINGIE WITH SPEECH BALLOONS

Deo101

hahahaha

Cronaj

In the end we are all just children XD

kayotics

this is really late, but i've been getting a lot more comments on my main site lately and I have no idea what I did to encourage that.

Deo101

people caught on

kayotics

That's probably all it is, but it's really surprising that my main site is the one getting more comments, since I wouldn't say it's necessarily a well built comment system? It's the native CMS comment system, and I require the first comment to be moderated

keii4ii

Does this mean I can claim I started reading Ingress before it got famous 8)

kayotics

yes

BUT, I'd say that the estimation of 1% of readers (or whatever the number was) is still accurate.

Deo101

.1% ish

kayotics

I have the most eyes on my comic over on Tapas, and while I do get a handful of comments there, it still equates to less than 1% of the total people subscribed. I'm sure there's a lot of reasons for that (like subscribers who aren't regular readers, people who quit the app, etc), but even the ratio of views to comments is pretty low.

Deo101

yeah I've been noticing that too

I have the most eyes on webtoons but I still have like. a good chunk on tapas and I think those are just more... casual sites

kayotics

yeah absolutely

Deo101

like on comicFury I have way higher engagement rates and i think that's pretty typical cause most of that audience there is also creators

kayotics

I'm sure there's some people who are pretty dedicated on Tapas, but I'd guess that there's more dedicated readers on my self-hosted site, just because they have to specifically seek out the content.

Deo101

^that makes a lot of sense to me

I know a lot of people who follow me on tapas are following 100+ other comics

and i know for SURE I wouldnt be able to take the time/effort to comment on like 10+ comics a day, assuming theyre even keeping up with all thsoe

wow yeah I just checked my list this person has over 6,000 comics theyre subscribed to, and a few have over 500

just on the first page of my readers(edited)

sooooo yeah it makes sense why engagement would be low if people are regularly reading that mant...

keii4ii

I actually rambled about this on twitter recently!

Deo101

and also makes me feel a little bit less bad when people are confused hahahahaha

keii4ii

How I thought I'd get a very small readership who are into what I'm making, but I ended up getting that very small readership PLUS a huge number of people who are just casually reading it

That first expectation was mostly based on my experience with my previous webcomic, but things were different back then. Big platforms weren't a thing, so casual readers were less common.

Deo101

yeah that's really neat

since I've only been making millennium for like... a little over 2 years and it's my first comic, I kinda just started with like 5 mirrors and was like "alright well, lets see how this goes I guess"

I had only ever read one webcomic before i literally have no idea how or why i got so convinced into making a comic

but since I was like 12 years old I was like "hm... I am going to make a comic i think." I just never did any research or tried til recently

or read any. I dont know how this happened

keii4ii

Casual readers vastly outnumbering the dedicated ones used to make me feel like I was doing something wrong, but I think that's just how the times are.

Deo101

Yeah :/ it's hard NOT to notice and feel like you're doing something wrong though.

when its like "okay i have 7,000 subs and got 5 comments" it's like ??? what am i doing WRONG

even though... its nothing wrong

it just be that way

hard to match those two ideas up though

almost went to continue this thought in an entirely different channel.

I think there is also something to be said for people not wanting to repeat a comment

like "oh someone already said what I thought so I'll just give it a thumbs up"

keii4ii

That's what upvoting is for!!!

Deo101

yup!

keii4ii

though, tfw highest voted comments are like "I have no idea wtf is going on lol"

Deo101

YEAH.

also do you ever comment on your own pages?

like not replying to people

keii4ii

I think I did once or twice, back when I actualy had relevant info and didn't have enough room in author's notes or something

Deo101

I've done it a few times, but it's usually kind of to ask questions where I can get replies

keii4ii

I have also seen a pro Korean creator post "first" on their own comic because they were tired of seeing so many of those

Deo101

I did that once LMAO

it's funny when people comment on my comic "FIRST!!!" cause i'm like. dude i get like 10 comments it's not that special to be first

but i'm happy theyre there and theyre excited its kinda cute i guess

keii4ii

Yeah, it's harmless

Deo101

and it's also nice to have people think that they have to race to be first

even though they don't

so it's kind of a nice comment to get even if it's not commenting on my work at all

keii4ii

It's kinda like hitting the like/heart button, just with more HURRY POINTS

Deo101

yeah hehe

oh i do 100% like all my own pages though

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

I actually get the most commenters on Webtoons but I’m (fairly?) sure I have more readers on my website.

Deo101

on webtoons, I don't do it on tapas cause you can see i did it LOL

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

I think I only ever got one First! comment and that was the only comment on that page.

keii4ii

Hey no shame in being your own #1 fan

Deo101

the one time I said "first!" was cause it had no comments on it for like a year and a hal

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Oh no, I don’t like my own pages. For some weird reason I feel like it’s cheating.

Deo101

and hell YEAH! I'm my number one fan so much that i'm making a dang comic for how much I like these characters ;D

keii4ii

I don't feel bad about liking my own pages, but I rarely do it because I wait a bit before even looking at the post

Deo101

inflate your own stats its cool. all the cool kids are doing it

keii4ii

And by the time I look at it, I forget about liking

Deo101

I only do it on webtoons cause I have to manually post there anyways

so i post and its like "heres the page!" and im like :) good job me :)

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

I might start doing it. XD I get an average of 5-10 likes per page so why not.(edited)

Deo101

I also rate myself 10* or whatever the max is wherever I can

keii4ii

Yeah, and TBH one like isn't gonna give you an unfair advantage anyway

Deo101

keii4ii

If you're making a dozen alt accounts to give yourself more likes, now that's a bit questionable

Deo101

yeah that would be not so good

but you're a real account who likes your work so why not!

keii4ii

Yeah!

Deo101

I also honestly kinda like to sub to my own stuff and like my pages partially to make sure it's all working right

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

I should probably rate myself 10* bc both my comics got ratings-bombed at one point for really dumb reasons.

Deo101

like to see when the page goes up and everything

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

The ratings have slowly crawled back up a ways, but it’s always disheartening when people attack my comics for stupid things.

keii4ii

Oh, to go back to an earlier point about asking questions to readers to encourage commenting, I might straight up ask next week if my comic is making any sense.

Deo101

ohhhhh man i dont like swingin at that hive lol

keii4ii

I'll have to word it well because I do not want it to be a pity party

Deo101

but i mean it might encourage the people who do get it to go "yup!"

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

I do straight up ask every now and then. Sometimes I’ll get a pity comment when I do and sometimes it’s still crickets.

Deo101

also I feel really lucky that I havent had anyone be like, mean to my about my work.

I feel like trolls have really gone down in popularity

keii4ii

like even right now I feel like nobody's getting it (except maybe <10 people) so..... I don't think the answers could make me feel worse

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

I meant I straight up ask for comments, ugh, I misread Keiiii’s post.

I GET IT, KEIIII

I LOVE UR BABIES

Deo101

oh man, I could never just ask for comments. if I'm feeling really down I usually send it to my friends like "can i have smth nice please" I just get really anxious asking people for things

not that asking is necessarily bad I just, as a person could never do that

also keiiii I havent read it yet but it's on my list cause the way you talk about your work and what I do know of it... seems like it would really jive right with me

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

I usually do it along the lines of: ‘If you enjoy this comic, don’t forget to leave a comment! Getting feedback motivates me to keep drawing!’

Deo101

oh okay thats not so bad

oh my god how are the eyes moving

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

I’m shameless, you can say it

Deo101

I have too much shame probably

keii4ii

It is my anxiety moving the eyeballs

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

Give me sone of your shame, it’ll even us out

Deo101

please take it

keii4ii

(anxiety with Nitro powers)

Deo101

NOOO dont be anxious im gonna love it

god that eyes shaking emoji is so great

keii4ii

ikr!

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

So fun fact- my real face eyes do that

keii4ii

I think Tatsumaki wants to see you do it

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

It’s called nystagmus and it’s super trippy if you’ve never seen it before!

keii4ii

OH, I knew someone with that condition!

I never noticed anything about their eyes (only heard about them having the condition from talking), because I never met them while wearing my glasses X'D;;

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

My eyes just RANDOMLY do it a lot and it really freaks people out XD

Desnik

I've found that comments don't matter too much, but getting a boost from someone with a big following does

and the only comments I take seriously are from people I trust, although I get it: chasing the internet numbers is fun

snuffysam

what do you mean by "comments don't matter" you mean, like, in terms of garnering popularity?

Desnik

yeah, and as validation they can be a bit fluffy too

my perspective changed when I started printing out my work as zines and got people to buy them irl, it was very eye-opening

very few people commented on them online but in person I've found out they're not bad? And one of them got me a lettering job

keii4ii

Eh, I think it's okay to have different goals. To some people, good comments mean the world, and that's totally valid to want that.

Desnik

I know, just stating my pov

keii4ii

I mean that to some people, a good comment is not just an "internet number."

Desnik

fair enough

I believe I allowed for 'good comments' as being from someone I trust

keii4ii

Me, I treasure insightful comments from anyone who's invested in my story. To each their own

FeatherNotes

I have a book that I write them down to give me a lil boost to morale when I need it! i def appreciate the time it took for someone to write something thoughtful

keii4ii

Yeah!

Capitania do Azar

Oh comments are like.. What I like the most! (not all comments are the same tho). The reason I put my story out there is so I can share it and discuss it with people and the fact that a few take some time off their day to actively tell me what they think it's what keeps me moving

eli [a winged tale]

I really enjoy comments too. I always respond to my Instagram ones but not the comic ones mostly because of platform difficulties

Glowbat (Aloe)

I love reading through all the comments- they really motivate me when I'm having a low point and need a pick me up to get goin on pages. I just wish I was better at knowing how to respond instead of just liking the comment and hoping they recieve my telepathic brainwaves of gratitude

Phin (Heirs of the Veil)

Replying to comments is very hard and I always have the anxiety of "ruining" it haha ;; whatever it is (the person's enjoyment of my work?? who knows)

Glowbat (Aloe)

I feel that- part of me is always nervous I'm gonna say somethin to off put them or smthn.

Though I do try my best to curate comment sections if things are looking like they're gonna get rowdy

keii4ii

YEAH, and/or sometimes you're like "this comment is Awesome and deserves an Equally Awesome reply... HOW DO I DO THAT" and get stuck in a loop

Glowbat (Aloe)

yesss exactly that

I'm not that clever and I require lots of time to come up with anything I'm confident in lol

and by the time I have something cool to say back its been like a week

keii4ii

I made a Discord icon to express my internal response in a visual form to such Awesome comments, but I can only use those on Discord

This one:

Glowbat (Aloe)

Hehe

cuteee

and also a mood

keii4ii

Sparkling tears of happiness

Capitania do Azar

I believe them

Cronaj

Man... I will admit, I barely respond to comments

And that probably sounds terrible

But I honestly don't have time to respond to every comment

As well as the anxiety of not know what to say

It does depend on platform tho

keii4ii

I mean, as a reader I don't expect a reply if my comment is like "ooo nice!"

Cronaj

Generally, I respond more readily to comments on Tapas than on Webtoons, because I only have like 2 commenters at most on Tapas

And usually it's readers who ALWAYS comment, so I almost feel like they deserve a response, even if it's just a smiley face or a "thank you"

keii4ii

But if I've written a long ass essay comment, it would be nice to have some kind of engagement with that. Don't get me wrong, the creator doesn't owe me a reply but it's like... should I ever do this again with this comic. Or is my reply-writing time better spent on another comic

Cronaj

True

keii4ii

I def respect that not every creator has time to read all of the comments, regardless of how many comments they typically get

Cronaj

On Webtoons, I have way more engagement, but most of it is thirst for my characters or talking about the art style

keii4ii

and that not every creator may even aim to get comments

Cronaj

So I don't usually know how to respond to stuff like that

keii4ii

But if that is the case........ I would rather know before committing myself to multiple essay-length comments

Yeah, that is understandable!

Cronaj

I read every comment, but I don't want to respond to all of them

keii4ii

I'm 100% cool with "thicc" comments on my MC's butt or on my tiger dude's legs, but I can't necessarily think of productive replies to those

Cronaj

The only comments I respond to on Webtoons are either a) incredibly funny, b) meaningful and noticing more than the art, or c) a genuine question

Like if someone asks about my update schedule

Or if someone wants to know which programs I use

I had one comment about how good my grammar in the dialogue/thoughts is, and I felt so honored that someone else noticed

Usually I get comments about the art (which is also nice), but I prefer comments about the story or subtleties

keii4ii

It's the best thing when people notice the things that you put a lot of thought and love into

Cronaj

For several years in high school, I played around with the idea of getting a writing degree, so grammar and literary language have a special place in my heart

sssfrs

I respond to every single comment... I get one comment a month pretty much though

When friends or readers say nice things about my comic on any platform I save a screenshot and read them if I start to feel like nobody likes what I’m making

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

I do the exact same

FeatherNotes

Its a good practice when things are kind of slow! Or just for that lip morale boost too

#ctparchive #comics #webcomics #indie comics #comic chat #comic discussion #comic tea party #ctp #creator interview #comic creator interview #creator babble

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knightofbalance-13 · 6 years ago

Text

https://rampantlytyping.tumblr.com/post/174581718969/for-fuck-sake

“Oh, it gets worse. Because I’ve read the archives of KOB’s reddit account. (Link here for reference, someone may wanna archive this in case KOB pulls a Delete Fucking Everything)

Never before have I seen something that would backfire so hard.

First of all, I’d recommend a look at the very first comment on that Reddit account, which was a screed about FatManFalling’s Volume 3 review. So much of modern KOB can be traced back here- has hatred of the word “the” and insistence on trying to replace it with “teh,” his long paragraphs, condescending attitude and personal attacks/insults (Also, for the record, “Fatass” is one of the worst mocking nicknames I’ve ever see on Reddit).

Actually-

https://www.reddit.com/r/RWBY/comments/5jdst1/cowardly_lion_taiyang_fanfiction/

This is. Thing is: this would HUMANIZE me. But god knows you can’t think of your opposition as human.

First is mischaractization.

Second is not a moral argument.

Third is conflating me being angry with who I am normally.

And fourth is downplayed since this whole post is nothing BUT a personal attack.

Also: Never said I was clever.

There’s also this post after Volume 4 which is basically “So the RWDE tag sucks amirite?”

No, the title is what I meant.

But a relevant comment that Caddeter and @psyga315 should see is this one. I’ll quote it directly, emphasis mine at the end:

Backfire in 3...2...1

“Now I know many of you are thinking “Why should I care?”

Well, because these people are in a dangerous mindset of ignoring everything that isn’t their opinion and warping that to justify their feelings.

I gave a comment on this journal pointing out the flaws in his work. The closest thing I said to an insult was saying that his usage of the term “man-pain” was stupid in any context. And when I admitted I wasn’t aiming towards him but his audience who weren’t sure about V3’s finale, he blocked me, deleted my comments (EDIT: he’s admitted to being wrong about teh previous two and has restored my comments. Still blocked but I have a way around it that he knows) and warped my words. Something he claimed Miles and Kerry did, minus the last part.

I ask of you: Say what you think about this. And not just the journal, what you thought of Pyrrha’s death. Not what he said, not what I said. But what you want to say.

Now GO!”

Now, if I was a generous man, this in context could be KOB asking for discussion on the Reddit.

I am not a generous man. To me, it looks like KOB deliberately inciting the Reddit post-Volume 3 (when they were most protective of RWBY as it was the last season that Monty would have definitely worked on) and encouraging them to dogpile the journal author.

Yeah...

Three things:

A. The time period this was made is post Volume 4, Not 3. So that’s bullshit.

B. https://www.reddit.com/r/RWBY/comments/5khw9y/my_thoughts_on_pyrrhas_death_rwby_and_rt_by_jswf/dbo9z0v/

Oh hey look, there’s someone disagreeing witrh me and I ENCOURAGED them. So that’s also bullshit.

C. https://www.reddit.com/r/RWBY/comments/5khw9y/my_thoughts_on_pyrrhas_death_rwby_and_rt_by_jswf/dboysk7/

Okay everyone, I have to ask that no one goes to the link and comments. The author is getting too stressed out by his debate with me and I don't want him to break.

So please, keep your discussions here.

Outright contradicted. Three strikes, you’re out.

And the worst thing? He had no empathy to the situation. Quote (again, emphasis mine):

“Well, don’t fight him. He’s…not right in the head.

Like I was arguing with him and he…wanted to kill himself.

And I didn’t even try being mean.”

Remember that in the Deviantart comments, KOB said that he could be “far far far crueler.”

As evidence by this post, where I am going to turn EVERYTHING against you. https://comments.deviantart.com/1/619991269/4290345087?offset=25#comments “*Sigh* Look, I never meant for you to get this stressed out. Hell, I understand where your coming from. Thinking about killing myself is such a common occurrence now I'm not even fazed by it anymore. So putting aside my feeling towards you and your conduct, I want you to listen to what i have to say: Your life matters. No matter what you think I've said, no matter what other people have said, no matter what you say, your life matters. You have friends and family who love and care about you and if you kill yourself, all it will do is wound those around you. It's painful I know but it's true. The best thing you can do is seek help above all else. Trust me, psychiatrists maybe be expensive by by divinty' sake they are miracle workers. And I know you're sick of hearing about this anime but really, look up Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann. That anime is a large part of why I get out of bed in the morning even thought I know there's a very good chance I'll choke to death on my breakfast, lunch or dinner or that my life probably doesn't mean anything in the grand scheme of things. It taught me to keep moving forward no matter what I lose or what I suffer because there is a light at the end of the tunnel. The journey is hard and long but it's worth it. I never intended on hurting you. Had I known you were this psychologically fragile or you were this invested in Pyrrha I would have said nothing. I understand where you are coming from and I'm sorry I did so much damage to you. I was wrong and you were right. Good day.” No empathy huh? “Also while I’m here, how about this long callout post about RWBY Analysis after she was angry at some art from Dishwasher that had Enabler undertones (complete with the classic “I used to respect you” card which you can always imagine someone saying within the context “I used to respect you when you agreed with me.”). And here’s her reaction, which should be recorded alongside the Great Fire of London as one of the greatest burns in history.”

Ah yes, a callout post...Where I didn’t call her out once...

But I guess the actual post looks pretty fucking bad for you (https://knightofbalance-13.tumblr.com/post/172361707730/httpsrwby-analysistumblrcompost172345982047) since it is short and-oh yeah-SHE WAS SLANDERING SOMEONE. Good job completely missing the point eh?

But sure Knight of Balance. Tell us all about how you never meant for any of this to escalate and how sorry you were. It’s not like your own accounts show you to be a liar who instigated a harassment campaign and showed no empathy upon hearing that it was partially successful. You can surround yourself all you want with your little cabal of white knights like Sunder the Gold and MageKnight who will go to bat for you when they can. You can claim all you want that what you do is a crusade to purify RWBY and Make The FNDM Great Again or some bullshit like that because you seem to think that if you kill RWDE, Miles will personally fly out to thank you for saving RWBY. And you can even run to other fandoms like Darling in the Franxx or FLCL where your name isn’t poison. But we all know what you are.

I didn’t mean for thing to escalate as evident by how I TRIED TO STOP IT,

No empathy when I actively tried to call him down MYSELF.

That sounds pretty fucking ironic considering that you surround yourself in haters like Dudeblade and Cadder there who will never ever think to question you or themselves. But as for that Sunder thing.. Well I’ll get to that latter but let’s just say, it’s a show of self control how I’m not screaming my head off.

Oh and you’re any different? You probably think ‘I f I get rid of all the fanboys, M&K will HAVE TO listen to my obviously not biased criticism and I’ll Make RWBY Great Again! Then Monty Sempai will rise form the grave to thank me for saving his legacy!’

Please, I’d sit Miles down and give him a lecture on how a timeline is VERY important for a long running show and keeping time skips vague to ‘avoid plotholes’ would in fact make MORE of them. Though I’d probably force him to attend a writing class, Just because I respect the guy doesn’t mean I see him as flawless.

Yerah, doesn’t work when I did the EXACT SAME THING I did here in Franxx. I obviously do not care about my reputation worldwide.

Here’s the thing: I do not regret many things in my time on the internet. I regret not asking about internet customs so i could know things like alt accounts were a bad thing. I regret my raging outbursts at innocent people because I was an immature fuckhead. I regret interacting with RWBYcrit. ... That’s it. My fight against RWDE? My battle against shitty critics? I do not regret that one bit. I fought for what I believed was right and got to meet amazing people along the way. I think I’ve even grown as a person. So no dice bitch.

You’re a schoolyard bully with a stick and anger problems. You’re a child throwing a temper tantrum, unaware of how if Miles or Kerry saw what you’ve said and done, they’d be disgusted in you and would shame you for the world to see. You are nothing. In the grand scheme of life, this will be your legacy. You will never amount to anything significant in this lifetime, and your life peaked before you even hit your twenties. KOB, I really hope you realize how in just under two and a half years, you have made nearly the entire fandom hate your guts.

... And?

Oh you thought this was gonna hurt me? You think you saying I have anger issues is gonna hurt me when I’ve acknowledged that as one of my worst traits. You think telling me Miles and Kerry would be disgusted with me is gonna hurt me when I am not them, they are not me and I am fighting primarily for myself? You think you calling me worthless and saying I will never amount to anything in my lifetime when I’m a fucking existentialist AKA someone who believes that there is no inherent worth in life? Bitch, I say worse things about myself every day.

And the rest is either lies (the fandom as a whole, even on Tumblr, DOESN’T CARE ABOUT ME.) or shows you’re projecting onto me (’You’re a bully!’ says the bullies.)

Let me break this down: We all hate you on Tumblr,

God, stop projecting your ego onto me, I know the fandom as whole on Tumblr doesn’t care about me.

You haven’t shown your face on Twitter

https://twitter.com/KOB13x

Shows what you know.

and when someone cited you in a Reddit post, everyone warned them not to link to you because you’re a toxic influence.

Considering how you’ve been posting links throughout this whole post, why should I believe you if you suspiciously DON’T provide proof of this. And again: stop projecting your ego onto me.

For Christ’s sake KOB, FatManFalling can get his stuff posted on R/RWBY. It’s extensively mocked, yes, but it’s still allowed.

To the point it regularly gets kicked off reddit for having massive downvotes.

You’re so bad you haven’t even got that privilege. Let that sink in and realize what it says about you.

A. Proof

B. Not the same context.

And C. I don’t care.

Because this is coming from someone who tried throwing Sunder The Gold under the bus by saying he associates with me. DESPITE the fact that we haven;’t talked to each other in MONTHS. Why did you say this then? Oh right, Sunder is a fan of RWBY ergo he must be eliminated right? Because anyone who doesn’t conform to your fucking hivemind and treat the show AND ESPECIALLY the creators like shit is a heretic right?

That’s why I do this. Because you people are fucking AWFUL in every sense of the word. Everything you just tried to pin on me applies to YOU instead and then we can add on EVEN MORE and EVEN MORE DISGUSTING shit to that pile.I don;t like Steven Universe but I am JUST as disgusted by SU‘s fandom and it’s bullshit. This has nothing to do with RWBY anymore, this has to do with you people DESTROYING INNOCENT LIVES. That is YOUR legacy: the ruins of people’s lives and the destruction of a show people hold dear all because you decided to embody the WORST aspects of humanity.

In short: Fuck you.

Oh, PS:

https://knightofbalance-13.tumblr.com/post/162724070290/rampantlytyping-knightofbalance-13-hey

Guess you’re in the same boat as me eh?

#rampantlytyping

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plussizeappreciationfics · 7 years ago

Text

One Shot: In the shadows Asian plus sized reader x Tom Hiddleston

Requested by anon: Can I have a Tom Hiddleston x Asian plus size reader where Tom has been dating you for 6 months, he is a big star and the reader is just a regular joe with 8-5 working hours, reader would like to keep the relationship a secret not wanting to get into the glamorous celebrity life. She’s a down to earth person I would say. While in the relationship, Tom would always go to premieres alone, as the reader would refuse to go (because she’s shy and likes to stay private) Tom couldn’t take it anymore so the reader gave up an joined him to a premier one day. The media went nuts with negative comments and the backlash from the fans hurts the reader, then Tom saves the day, please let it be extra fluffy?

“Just think about it please Y/n” Tom, my boyfriend of 6 months texted me. I sighed heavily. “Okay I’ll think about it and let you know tonight”, I texted him back before I stood up and threw the rest of my lunch away.

Tom asked me to join him for the Avengers: Infinity War premier next week, knowing well that I didn’t wanted to go public with him yet. I was afraid of the looks, comments and questions people would ask me the minute I would step out of the shadows and publicly announce that I was dating Tom.

We met at a party hosted by one of my closest friends. Never in a lifetime would I’ve thought that she knew celebrities. The second l saw him standing across the room our eyes met and the world stopped. I could feel the connection between us, but not wanting my private life become public, I avoided Tom for almost the whole night before he had enough and cornered me in a quit place and asked me why I was avoiding him.

I told him the truth and told him not I wasn’t born to stand in the spotlight. Tom was very understanding and asked me to give him at least a chance, and that he would keep us as private as possible.

He kept his promise and we started dating, only our one close friend knowing about the both of us. But it was hard, I couldn’t see Tom whenever I wanted, or I always had to sneak out of his house at 4 am to avoid any paparazzis. Tom always went to events all alone while I sat at home and watched him from my TV.

I shook my head, wanting to get all thoughts and concentrate on getting back to work in the local library. Before I entered it the library, I sent Tom one last message, telling him that my lunch break was over and that I couldn’t text anymore.

I locked my phone and rushed the reception where a few students were already waiting for me. I helped them finding their books for their school project, restocked, replaced and registered the books I was receiving and lending at people for hours until the clock struck 5 pm.

I closed the computer and checked if everyone had left, before closing the door with the key and got into my car. When I pulled up at my drive way, I saw Tom’s car already parked.

I smiled and felt excited to spend tonight with him, because I hadn’t seen in three weeks. I opened the front door and walked into the living room where I saw Tom sitting on the couch in his sweatpants and nothing else.

I smiled at him when he acknowledged my presence and stood up, coming up to me and kissed me softly. “Hey darling”, he greeted. “Hi Tom, I missed you so much”, I confessed while wrapping my arms around his waist while he softly kissed my forehead.

“I missed you too my love, come let’s get you comfortable”, he spoke while leading me to the couch. I sat down and took my shoes off and removed my jacket. Tom went into the kitchen and came back with a plate with my favorite meal.

I thanked him as he kissed my cheek and watched me eat, while snapping a few pictures of me. After I finished I eating, I placed the plate on the small table in front of me.

“So, have you thought about attending the movie premiere next week?”, Tom asked me, his eyes never leaving mine. I nodded my head and sighed, not knowing how to tell him that it was still too soon for me to step out and announce our relationship.

“Tom…it’s still too soon”, I started but Tom didn’t let me finish my sentence. He abruptly stood up and started pacing back and forth in the living room.

Frowning at his action, I raised my eyebrow at him, but he just sighed frustrated. “Y/n it’s been six months, I did everything you asked me to. Nobody knows were dating, I keep your name out of my mouth during interviews, I always make sure the paparazzis are never around when we go out, everything Y/n! I’m feeling so lonely and the fact that we can only see each other once or twice a week when I’m not traveling makes me feel so alone”, Tom finished, his voice cracking at the end of his last words.

I felt so bad now, he was the best boyfriend and never complained always made me feel so loved and protected and now when he just wanted one favor I tried to step back.

“I’m so sorry Tom, It was never my intention to make you feel lonely, I love you Tom so I’ll go with you to the premier, I just don’t want to interviewed okay? I said softly. His frown turning into a handsome smile.

Tom nodded his head and walked over to me and kissed me tenderly while whispering that he loved me. That night ended with him making sweet love to me and promising me that we would have a fun night at the premier.

During the whole week, I was busy working and Tom had to travel again to finish some project he was working on. I bought this cute outfit and black heels, knowing that the event wouldn’t be too fancy.

(A/N: pick whatever you like, I personally like the first one)

When the day of the premiere arrived, I was nervous when Tom’s car pulled into the drive way, and the chauffeur got out and told me that Tom was waiting inside the car. I thanked him while me opened the car door for me. I climbed in and saw Tom sitting by the window, wearing a handsome Armani tuxedo.

He stared at me, not a word leaving his mouth. “You look so breath taking my darling”, he complimented me. I blushed and gave him a quick peck on his soft lips. Before I could pull away Tom leaned in closer and held my head in his hands, his soft lips moving sensually against mine.

“Gorgeous, you are the most gorgeous woman I’ve ever met in my life”, Tom whispered sweetly against my lips. I was still blushing and didn’t want this moment to end.

We couldn’t keep our lips to ourselves,Tom’s lips were moving slowly against mine when the chauffeur suddenly informed us that we had arrived. Pulling away from Tom’s lips I breathed nervously, knowing that we were just a few seconds away from announcing our relationship to the world.

Tom saw my anxiety and reached out to hold my hand in his and gave me a reassuring squeeze. I looked at him and nodded my head. The chauffeur opened the door and Tom climbed out of the car, the screams of the fans becoming louder and the camera flashes snapping quicker the second he stepped out.

He turned to me and held his hand out for me. I took a deep breath before climbing out of the car and taking Tom’s hand. He kissed me softly before whispering “It’s okay, I’m not gonna leave you alone, sweetheart”.

I nodded my head and we slowly made our way to the red carpet where all the actors of the movie were posing and doing interviews. Tom posed with me and gave me plenty of kisses while the photographers went crazy and kept asking who I was.

We ignored their questions, us kissing making it obviously that I was his girlfriend. Tom started doing interviews, as he promised, he kept me at his side and avoided all questions the nosy reporters were trying to pry out of him.

A staff member told us that it was time to go watch the film so we made our way to the entrance of the building. While Tom talked with Chris Hemsworth a few feet in front of me, some photographer yelled “What bet did Tom Hiddleston lose for him to take a chubby girl to the premiere?“.

I gasped and clutched my mouth, trying so hard to not cry in front of everybody. Tom hadn’t noticed what happened so he continued his conversation with Chris. I asked a staff member next to me where to find the restroom. After she explained to me which direction to go, I sped into the building past Tom and went straight to the restroom, ignoring Tom calling out for me.

When I arrived at the restroom, I walked to the sink and slid down against the wall. I pulled my phone out and googled Tom’s name wanting to know what the people were saying.

A link send to me an Instagram celebrity page, where the photos of Tom and us just got uploaded. I clicked on the comments and started to read through them.

Ew Tom Hiddleston downgraded

She’s so chubby no wonder Tom hid her in the shadows

Who is she even? meh

The comments went on and on, making tears run down my cheek. “Y/n”, Tom’s worried voice making me jump. He entered the restroom and saw me sitting on the floor. “My love what happened?”, he asked me softly while sitting in front of me and wiping my tears away.

“Look what they’re already saying about me”, I sniffed and handed him my phone. He read through the comments with his jaw clenched. “Baby, those are haters, they’ll always hate, don’t mind them. I love you, I love your beautiful, gorgeous , thick and curvy body. Every inch of it my love, so please don’t waste another tear okay?”, Tom spoke softly while staring into my eyes and softly caressing my cheek.

I nodded my head and softly smiled at him. This man could always lift up my spirits no matter what…Tom leaned in and gave me a soft kiss. He slowly pulled away and gave me my phone back.

“But look you already have some friends”, Tom informed me. I frowned and scrolled down the comments, a soft smile creeping onto my face.

Omg she’s so pretty!

Yasss, fuck social society standards and get you a sweet plus size babe!

Omg Tom and her are so cute!

She looks so beautiful, no wonder Tom can’t stop looking at her

What a beauty!

Reading those comments made me my heart swell. Tom helped me stand up and grabbed my hand while walking out of the restroom.

He kissed me one last time before whispering “I love you so much darling”. “I love you too Tom, let’s go watch the movie”.

Hey anon, hope you like this one and thanks again for helping me find these pictures :D

xxx

Emma

#tom hiddleston x reader #tom hiddleston x plus size reader #plus size reader #plus size #one shot #imagine

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redandfranticfeelings · 7 years ago

Note

'tag things making fun of doug' because your personal enjoyment of an abuser's content should supersede the feelings of the people he abused by making them act out rape jokes? the fact that making fun of an abuser upsets you because you like him warrants some serious self-examination on your part. 'you can't make fun of an abuser around me bc i like his content and you can't criticize me bc mental illness' is some wendycorduroy shit. i'm surprised you'd do this given how critical you are of her.

and yes, people are allowed to not like you for still liking the show. ofc people can have problematic interests if they want, but content that has been directly used by its creators to abuse people is a special kind of bad. you’re allowed to like it, but guilt tripping people or implying they’re not allowed to dislike the fact that you still support it is incredibly callous to the people rob, doug, and mike abused. this is not, nor should it be, about your feelings. this is about the victims.

you know what. upon further consideration, those asks were not kindly phrased. my intention was to emphasize that because the anniversary movies were vessels for abuse (injuries, rape jokes, etc) it was inappropriate to prioritize one’s own feelings over the feelings of the victims or block out criticism, but i phrased them in a way that was not productive and was attacking you. i’m sorry for my wording and for being a dick

thank you for your follow up apology. i see where youre coming with this but i think there’s a few things that i can point towards me not giving up on the show altogether.

short answer: while i detest the way the company has been run and is executing public relations, and i am uncomfortable watching any video on their channel and have not done such for weeks, and i really want the harmed ex-producers to receive justice, i still believe there is a shred of hope for the show based on what recent producers have said, and that doug can reform himself by owning up to his deliberate ignorance, neglect, and egotism, though he is not the biggest abuser in this situation. i have a lot of emotional history with NC that means i need time before i’m able to drop the show altogether, if i ever can, and i just want to avoid anything that isn’t constructive and just intended to make anybody feel bad for liking the show/movies before this information was widely known.

long answer:

most of the criticism lauded against doug isnt so much being the direct abuser but being complacent and ignorant of people’s health. if i recall correctly, while it was a pretty unnecessary and terrible joke to make in my opinion, he didn’t pick up that the drill scene in TBF made anybody uncomfortable at the time? and in recent years he seems more concerned about what his cast undergoes, and a lot of them have said that he does ask about jokes that might hurt them and make sure they’re comfortable. i believe he apologized for it and acknowledged his naievity in the movie’s commentary but restating that apology would be beneficial now, yeah.

while complacency and ignorance is bad, i think he has been neglectful, not directly abusive. also, idk if you meant this, but your phrasing makes it kinda sound like his projects were intended as a means to abuse people; the abuse happened because of the movies, yeah, but it was because of doug being egotistical and ignorant, not malicious. the content of the movies reflect’s doug’s massive ego but it doesn’t reflect a desire to abuse anybody. if he did the shit that mike michaud or mike ellis did, that would be inexcusable for me and i would have lost hope for him.

if anybody is definitely abusive, it’s the CEO, who i love watching get bashed because he is indeed a sexist verbally abusive asshole who holds the power in the company and is using it for his stupid selfish needs. it’s also been stated that doug is restricted by his contract with the CEO and could just straight up not be able to make videos if he stepped out of turn, so while i wish he would use his walkout power more, he doesn’t have as much power as some people attribute to him. he’s complicit in abuse but i don’t think that’s the same as being abusive? the producers themselves seem to go back and forth about how they feel about him but a recurring theme is that he’s tragically ignorant of abuse, but not on the same level of abusive as michaud, if they call him abusive at all (most just seem to feel betrayed by him).

additionally, almost all creators who have worked with him in the past couple of years, have stated they had generally positive experiences with the network, even the ones who are now leaving. the only thing that seems to remain an issue is the awful, awful PR (that apology sucked, i criticized it myself) and the lack of communication towards anybody not chicago-based. i feel they need to ditch michaud (which probably won’t be easy, since he’s a shady capitalist fuck), formally apologize and maybe provide compensation for past producers who were abused by the higher-ups, and either improve relations or just restrict everything to NC, because at this point that’s the only show that’s going to be left if they don’t get their shit together anyway. but i do think that if they just take the easy solution of apologizing, even though it’s already way too late and they royally fucked themselves over, things can be a little better.

i’m also not against criticizing doug for not speaking out, because the least he could do is apologize at least privately and i’ve even emailed him imploring him to do at least that (i don’t expect a response though lmao). i just get hurt at people attacking the show and movies as being terrible and something no fan should like. a lot of people really attached to the series before this blew up, and for the most part the content of the show doesn’t reflect the behind-the-scenes issues.

i’m spreading relevant information on twitter regarding abuse and producers’ feelings, but so many people (obviously not the producers, but the fans/haters) involved in this are more concerned with just shitting on doug bc they don’t like him and a lot are trying to make him out as worse than he is. i want to spread what the producers say because i trust them, but i’m wary of fans who seem to just be in it for the drama or bc they never liked NC and they wanna spite people who did (yes, those people exist, they mocked me on kiwifarms).

i know this isn’t about me, but i’ve invested a lot of money and time and emotional energy in the show, it’s introduced me to new friends, and it’s been directly and indirectly responsible for some of my highest and lowest points of the past year and a half. my comfort ship has been very helpful in helping my loneliness. it gave me something to look forward to every day. not to pull the autism card, but it’s difficult for me to drop a special interest very easily and i’m jealous of people who can. i need time to grow entirely out of it if i can.

but even still, i haven’t watched a NC episode in weeks, even the new ones, due to my discomfort and shame towards the show and network (only NC thing i watched lately was the hyper q&a, which is on tamara’s channel, and i used it to fall asleep). i unsubscribed, and i really i only care about a few aspects of the show anyway.

if you want to hate me because i can’t immediately remove NC from my heart then fine, but if so, just unfollow me. i don’t want people to not post NC criticism, and i fully endorse spreading relevant information because i care about the victims and i want them to receive justice. i just want hate tagged so i, personally, do not have to be constantly reminded that a show that is/was close to my heart has so many awful things behind it, even if i’m not sure if i still love it anymore. and while i have been a bit guilt-trippy in the past i’ve been confronted on that already and i’m trying not to come across that way, and i’m sorry for having been manipulative at all. i’m paranoid about being abandoned and hated just for having watched this show but unless you’re like, a super close friend of mine, you can unfollow any time you want.

#answers #this is WAY TOO LONG i spent too much time on this #but i needed to address this #i rly rly rly hope i didnt misspeak on this hhhh #Anonymous #nostalgia critic #im not against criticism bc ive said shit on my own #im not even against ppl making fun of it i just dont wanna see it #channel awesome

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imafantasticbaby · 7 years ago

Text

WARNING

VERY LONG POST ON MY FEELINGS ON YG HATE

To be honest, most of the people that hate on Yang Hyun Suk and call him garbage and neglectful, etc, are only doing it because they don’t care to think carefully. They just see something happen that makes them upset and just go off on it without realising that they don’t know the full story. They don’t know all the details, because what you see in the media and on the internet or by second hand from another fan, isn’t all pieced together and has a lot of holes in it, because sometimes it’s hard for the media to get all the details, so instead they just let personal assumptions and theories set them off into hate And because YHS is easier to attack they throw their hate at him. People are way too attached to their faves that if they aren’t having a comeback every month or year or doing something every 5 seconds, they immediately assume that their fave is being neglected, when in reality they are probably just resting or preparing something. It takes Epik High and BigBang a year or more to release an album because they really take their time in making things perfect in their eyes. They are not making “profitable music” they are making something personal and like Ive said in a previous post, that takes time and effort and can’t happen in months time from the last comeback. Not to mention that there are also solo opportunities to deal with and some even have promotions and advertising, etc, that also takes up a lot of time. Oh and also REST AND SELF CARE. This is a career, not a hobby for them and people tend to keep forgetting that.

Sometimes things get delayed or priorities get switched because of money. Having a comeback or debut, etc, costs a lot so of course things will take time until the proper financial stability is there. BlackPink’s debut was basically funded by BigBang and winner along with other things. Doing survival programs, variety shows and other forms of promotions and advertising and even CFs are important to help gain the money for what YG needs. And you know YG wants to go full force and all out on their artists, so they gotta make a lot to spend a lot so your faves can continue to rock their Gucci and Chanel, you know?

When it comes to TOP, how do you know for sure that YHS hasn’t been doing anything for him? How do you know that YG is neglecting him and his situation? Is there definite and physical proof? YHS and YG could be dealing things with TOP in a more private way so that the media and the public/fans aren’t hovering over him and that’s why there isn’t much coverage on it. However, instead of thinking about that, you assume that YG is neglecting him and his situation cause you can’t find any info on it. That’s stupid.

With Lee Hi I do sympathise with the fact that she hadnt had a comeback in a while. But not once has she said the words that you all are assuming that she is feeling or going through. She sings and cry and all of a sudden that is because “she’s sad because YG is not letting her do anything and is ignoring her completely”. Have you guys realised that since her comeback she has been doing concerts and featuring projects with other artists and appearing on shows, etc? YG is not sleeping on her, they are letting her do things to help promote herself. She is not being neglected. Now before you go and say “oh but Envil, what about that time on Party People when she cried and explained what her Song breathe was about and the things she said?” Umm hello! Did you guys even really understand what she meant? She was talking about the past and how she was dealing with personal struggles and the feeling of thinking she needed more practice but because of her worries it took longer then expected and because of her anxiety she couldn’t sing freely like she wanted too. NOT because YG was forbidding her to and NOT because YG was neglecting her. It was because she was struggling with personal issues and feelings. I’m just happy that YG understood enough to give her that time needed to prepare herself for her comeback and because they did she came back with a beautiful album and now she is back to her badassness and even featuring in a badass Epik High Song again. But because she said “I wasn’t able to do it freely” people take it out of context and assume is something it’s not and just go off on it. It’s ridiculous.

When it comes to BlackPink everyone is hating on YHS because they still haven’t made a comeback and are singing the same three songs right now. They think he is just ignoring them and not letting them release new songs. But have you guys thought that maybe he’s just letting them get known right now? They are promoting, doing advertising, concerts, variety shows, etc. They are busy trying to establish their fandom so that when they do release a comeback they have stable ground to walk on. This process takes time and patience which yall clearly don’t have. Just reacently YG revealed the trailer for BLACKPINK TV do there is evidence for you that YG is still paying attention to them and helping them get known better with their on TV show. Doing all this will help when they come back. It was the same with Winner and Ikon and every other group in the company and now it’s their turn. Have patience.

I know I have said this in a post already but when it comes to the 2NE1 issue, it’s unfair to put all the blame on YHS for their disbandment. There was proof that he really wanted them to come back and that they were actually preparing for it. But things happened. CL wanted to do her American branching and promotions and Minzy wanted her Album which just wasn’t happening because priorities got mixed up and that led to her leaving. But that is not JUST his fault guys. He was trying. Things happened. It’s life. And sometimes things just don’t work out as planned. This still could have happened to 2NE1 even if everything was the same except they were at JYP instead. It was unfortunate yes and even I was angry for a while. But I understand that sometimes individual dreams get in the way of things and life just happens and not everyone is going to like the result.

You have YG artists that joke around about Yang Hyun Suk and how hard headed he is and such but that’s all they are, jokes. Because right after joking they always say how good of a boss and mentor he is and how he helps them, etc. There has not been one Artist or former Artist of YGE that has said ANY of the things that knetz or the fans say about him at all. Tbh I think this all “let’s hate on YHS” thing started as a joke taken way too far. It’s stupid. No one is even trying to analyse things and give the benefit of the doubt that things in the media is not always what it seems at first glance. It’s like reading the title of an article and basing an opinion without actually reading the article you know? It’s stupid.

The fans are also hating on him because he gives strong and sometimes very straightforward and harsh constructive criticism. He’s like Simon From American Idol. People get so upset when he gives not so positive feedback on their faves and immediately bash him for it and don’t even stop to think that maybe what he is saying is actually true and needs to be said so that the artists or group can fix it and improve themselves. He’s not saying it to just hurt their feelings or bash on them, he’s telling them good advice and giving them good criticism that can help them in their future. He’s not going to surface coat things and baby them. He did not take years creating BigBang and moulding them in the right direction which leads them to becoming the Nations Top Kpop Group by babying them and telling them nice things all the time. No, he told TOP that he needed to practice more on his dancing so that he could keep up, he had GD write songs everyday do it could help him make hits, he was hard on Seungri and Hyunseung because he wanted them to achieve great things in the future, he dropped one because they weren’t ready as the others had been and he kept Seungri cause he saw the best potential and he’s hard on him at times because YG knows that he’s good and talented and wants him to keep it up and not give up. When YHS gives his opinions and advice he is doing it to be honest and to point out things that need to improve, there is nothing ill treated about it. But because it’s your fave, you get upset and want to attack, which is understandable, but you gotta stop to think before you do.

And tbh, if I’m feeling this right, I feel like YG is allowing the fans to hate him, because at least he gets the hate and not the staff members and others. I feel like he’s content with receiving the hate on his SNS and such just as long as no one else is. Which is unfair. I wish he would come out more and try to show more of his true self that YG Family gets to see that we don’t. They all describe a person we rarely get to view and I hope he starts to show that. On the other hand I could be wrong and he actually doesn’t like the hate and wants it to stop but just doesn’t know how to go about it without the public just bashing on him some more. I cant imagine the struggle tbh.

You all can fight me on this. But I’ll just stand my ground on it. Momma didn’t raise no bitch and I’m not about to let haters who just go off based on feelings and personal frustration derail me. I will continue to look at the bigger picture and not just assume shit and go off because I’m upset that things keep getting delayed or dropped or whatever. Things happen and we all need to calm down before we attack.

Welp sorry for the long rant. I’ll go back in my hole now.

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sky-casino · 7 years ago

Text

Fight For You

Genre: Fluff, Angst

Pairing: Jaehyun x Reader

Word Count: 8382

Warning/s: Family problem, Abandonment, Cheating

A/N: Based on some of my experiences and beliefs. Don't ask :))

You're unique, but not in a good way.

In your class and among your group of friends, you're the only one whose parents are divorced. You're the only one who comes from a broken family. Your dad fell out of love with your mom and left home. You and your mom have been struggling since then. Not exactly financially, but more emotionally. You hate to admit it, but what happened to your parents warped your view on love. Seeing them fight, hearing their screams and insults to each other, basically watching their marriage crumble down right in front of your eyes has corrupted your view and thoughts about love. You have become a borderline man hater. You still believe in true love, but aren't exactly hopeful in finding one. If it happens, then great. If it doesn't, then alright. Move on. You don't need a man anyway.

Or so you thought. He came into your life during one sunny school day. And suddenly, you started to see life in a different light.

"Good morning class!" Your teacher yelled. It was the first day of your third year in high school. Your classmates started to settle down.

"Let me introduce to you your new classmate, Jeong Jaehyun."

"Good morning! I'm Jeong Jaehyun and I was born on Valentine's Day. I lived in America for four years. My hobbies include playing basketball and the piano. I love to sing, cook, and try out different cafes and restaurants. Hoping to be friends with all of you!" Then he gave a bright smile before doing a bow.

You've never seen a smile that bright before, or someone who introduced himself that enthusiastically. The people in your school were generally laidback or annoying. He just introduced himself in six sentences and have been in the same room with you for less than ten minutes and you were already sure, he's different.

But then you reminded yourself that you should never let your guard down. Never. Or you might end up hurting like your mother.

You were too engrossed in your thoughts that you didn't notice Jaehyun taking his seat next to you. He pulled out his chair and smiled at you as he sat down. Your confusion was apparent on your face so Jaehyun explained in a shy manner, "The only empty seat is this one." You realized that you might have looked bitchy and instantly snapped yourself out of it, "Oh sure, it's alright." You gave him a smile which he quickly returned. Your heartbeat was louder than usual. And once again, you were confused.

Throughout the two subjects you had before recess, Jaehyun kept bugging you with questions, both school-related and personal.

‘’What’s that written on the board? I can’t see it clearly.“ “What’s your favorite subject? Mine is history! Learning about important events from the past is interesting for me.“ “What does T mean again? Tan?“ “Do you have someone to eat with for recess? Can I come with you?“

Sure. He was undeniably attractive but boy was talkative as hell and you were pretty certain you almost snapped at him. But despite all of this, you can’t deny the fact that you felt warm around him. He had this pearly white smile on his face 90% of the time and he was just really friendly. And so you couldn’t help but take him along with you for break time. Before exiting, your teacher asked you to come over. You told Jaehyun to wait outside.

“Y/N, it would really be a huge help if you can help Jaehyun adjust in our school. Show him around, tell him the do’s and don’ts. Stuff like that. Alright? Thank you.“ She said with a smile. You were surprised to be given this duty. Your teachers don’t really pay attention to you and even though you were shocked, you took up the responsibility happily. You’re in your last year of high school and some merit points wouldn’t really hurt, would they? Once you got out of the classroom, Jaehyun asked you right away what the teacher told you. So you informed him that you would be his “nanny “ while he’s still in his adjusting stage. Jaehyun’s face instantly lit up. “Really?! I feel comfortable with you already so that’s great!“ You could feel your cheeks heat up at hearing that. Turned out he felt the same way towards you. “So where do we eat?“ He asked excitedly like a kid. You lead the way to your favorite bench under one of the cherry blossom trees.

The two of you got to know each other more over his pizza and your sandwich. "So, tell me more about yourself." He asked you. No one ever really showed interest in you until this very moment. So it was a bit hard for you to come up with something to say.

"Well, I'm an only child." You said.

"Really?! Me too! Wow we have a similarity already." He said while laughing. He found it really funny and you were there making a blank face. What's so funny about it anyway?

"What do your parents do? My mom is a housewife and my dad is a doctor." He said before taking a bite.

This question made you uncomfortable. You didn't really like talking about your parents. But for some reason, you felt like opening up to Jaehyun. "My mom is a landlady-slash-housewife. She has residential and commercial spaces for rent. My dad is.. well.. I don't know what he's up to or where he is. My parents are separated." You tried to deliver the last sentence non-chalantly. Not sure if you succeeded. "Oh. I'm so sorry about that. I.. I shouldn't have asked." For the first time ever, you saw sadness on Jaehyun's face.

"No, it's alright. You didn't know. And I've accepted it already. Our situation, I mean." You said with a smile, trying to let him know that it was really alright and he shouldn't be sorry at all.

"Alright. If you say so.." He said with a shy smile while looking down on his pizza, not being able to make eye contact with you. You realized that moment that he was really cute. Like REALLY cute. He might just be the cutest boy you've ever seen.

"Oh, have you decided which club to join?" You asked in an attempt to change the topic.

"Actually, yes. I'll be joining the basketball team."

"Wow, that's great. Are you good?"

"Yep! I used to be a varsity player back in America." He said with a sheepish smile, wiping his nose with his thumb.

"Really? Well I'll be looking forward to it. Let's see if you pass the try-outs." You jokingly pressured him.

"Is that a challenge?" He asked.

"If that's how you want to take it, then sure." You shrugged and the both of you laughed. You couldn't believe how smooth your conversation with him went, how comfortable you were with him--a guy--despite talking to him for the first time ever.

In the months that followed, you and Jaehyun became best friends. You spent break times with each other, visited cafes and bubble tea shops after school, study sessions in the library where he ends up sleeping and you trying to make sure he wouldn't get caught. You always picked each other as partners for projects which lead to sleeping over at each other's houses. Also, you were always there for him in every single one of his games.

You were very happy to be his best friend. Life seemed to be brighter and you gained strength from Jaehyun. However, there were always a couple of recurring questions in the back of your mind, "Do I possibly have feelings for Jaehyun? Will our friendship reach a certain next level?" But you always denied the feelings. Always. You never failed to tell yourself that you guys were just best friends and will never be anything more than that. You swore to yourself that you'll never fall in love with your best friend. You hate men, did you forget? Jaehyun was the only exception, though.

Now, you were actually doing pretty well in hiding and denying your feelings all those months. Until one night when Jaehyun decided to do the unexpected. The two of you were on your way home after an exhausting day of preparing for the annual school festival.

"Geez, our president is so demanding. It's almost 7pm already and he wouldn't stop giving all the tasks!" You complained. Jaehyun would usually say anything to support your complaint or to make you feel better. But this time he just gave out a fake laugh.

"What's wrong? You're unusually quiet." You said.

"Hmm nothing. I was just thinking about something."

"About what?"

He just kept walking while looking on the ground, not giving any answer. You thought that maybe he's just tired, so you let him be. But he suddenly stood in front of you, looking you directly in the eye as if he was staring into your soul.

"Wh-why? What's wrong?"

"I know you'll get shocked with what I'll say but.. but I'll say it anyway." Then he exhaled very loudly while shaking his arms, trying to shake off the jitters. "You're already my best friend, so.. would you like to be more than that and be my girlfriend?" He held his breath right after delivering the question. The silence that followed was deafening and you realized that like him, you were not breathing. It was as if all the oxygen was sucked out from your body.

"Stop messing with me." You said in a weak voice as you tried walking past him. However, he immediately grabbed your wrists.

"I am not messing with you. I've always thought of you as someone special. Someone who's always there for me and someone I can definitely open up to. I can't explain it very well but I'm just really comfortable with you and everything feels right when I'm with you. I.. I love you, Y/N."

You looked into his eyes and there you saw desperation and honesty. You realized he was telling the truth but you didn't know what to feel about it. Should you be happy because Jaehyun loves you back? Or be conflicted because you wanted to remain as the man hater that you were. You didn't want to get involved in anything romantic with a guy. And yes, you already accepted the huge possibility of being single for the rest of your life. Having a guy best friend was already a large and overwhelming step for you. That was enough.

You couldn't look at his eyes any longer and so you tried walking past him again, "I'm sorry Jaehyun but I really can't-". But he cut you off as he held your shoulders firmly. "I know why you're being like this, why you're being hesitant. You're scared. Scared to get hurt because of.. what happened to your parents. But I swear to god Y/N, I am not like your father. I won't hurt you! Please believe me." With these, tears started to fall from your eyes. You looked at everything else except him as you wiped your tears. "I'll prove to you that not every man is like your father. That despite what happened to your parents, you can and will still get a happy ending." You couldn't control your tears anymore after hearing his words, his promises. He embraced you tightly and kissed your head. You hugged him back and in that moment, you felt all your defenses coming down. The walls that you worked so hard to build have now turned into ashes. The ice box where you placed your heart has melted. And it's all because of one boy. However, you don't regret it. You're actually excited how this will turn out, how your relationship with Jaehyun will go and all you could do was work and hope for the best.

Jaehyun was your first boyfriend. So naturally, both of you took the relationship from "best friends" to "boyfriend and girlfriend" one step at a time, slowly but surely. One of the first changes that happened was the act of holding hands. The very next morning after the confession, Jaehyun picked you up at your house so the two of you could walk to school together. The first thing he did after you got out of your gate was offer his hand to you. You just stared at it for a few seconds until the realization finally hit you.

"Oh my god. I am now taken. I am now in a relationship. With Jaehyun. I am no longer a single girl. Shit." You thought to yourself.

"What's wrong? Take it." Jaehyun said with a giggle that turned into a laugh. "You're the only girl in this world who has the right to take it and hold it. Even better if you intertwine your fingers with mine." He continued, with the most gentle smile you've ever seen. Your heart was thumping and you remembered that Jaehyun's sweetness is one of the reasons why you'd never regret letting him into your once-closed heart. A smile formed on your face as you slowly took his hand and filled the spaces between his fingers with yours. That was the first of the many morning trips to school with you holding each other's hands.

Jaehyun showed his prowess in every game and eventually became the star player of your school's basketball team. Of course, popularity came along with the title and you must admit, more and more girls have started to get competitive in getting his attention even though it was widely known that he was already taken by you. The insecurity got the better of you sometimes and you tended to withdraw yourself from the relationship from time to time. Jaehyun noticed this and he knew exactly how to handle it.

"Babe, you're doing it again."

"What?"

"You're being unusually quiet and distant."

"No, I'm not."

"Yes, you are. And you haven't looked me in the eye since you arrived. You didn't kiss me back either." He slowly walked to you and wrapped you in a warm embrace from behind while you were cooking in his apartment. It took a lot of convincing from Jaehyun on the phone to actually get you there. "I already told you there's nothing to worry about. I don't care about those girls!"

There was a short moment of silence before you turned the stove off and slowly turned around to put your arms around Jaehyun's waist. "Okay.. if you say so." You said with a pout while looking everywhere except Jaehyun. "You're so cute!" He said as he pulled your cheeks. "Ow! That hurts!" You screamed while swatting his hands away. Within a few seconds, you were chasing him around the apartment to get your revenge. "Come back here you breadface!" You exclaimed. The both of you were laughing and running like there's no tomorrow when you realized two things: one, Jaehyun's laugh was indeed the best and most beautiful thing you've ever heard and two, this was the happiest you have ever been in your entire life.

You and Jaehyun were chomping on the seafood chowder that you made when you brought up the topic regarding the next step in your lives: going to university.

“So, what course do you want to take again? Sorry I forgot.”

“Architecture.”

“Yeah, that one.”

“How about you?”

“Communications. Where do yo wanna go?”

“Hmm.. I’m not really sure. But one of the reasons I’ve been working hard as a varsity player is because I want to get offered scholarship by good universities. Whoever offers me the best one is where I’ll go, most likely. That’s the plan.”

“That’s actually a wise plan, my very smart boyfriend. I believe you’ll get a good offer because *kiss* you’re the *kiss* best *kiss* basketball *kiss* player *kiss* in our entire school.” You said as you peppered him with kisses all over his face while sitting on his lap, arms around his neck.

It was the last week of your fourth year in high school. Every one was busy with exams, projects, papers, and other requirements. For a varsity player like Jaehyun, it meant playing his last game as your school's MVP. You watched the championship game, which he and his teammates won, of course.

"You played so well, babe! I couldn't be prouder!" You shouted at Jaehyun to make sure he could hear you despite the loud cheers and drums in the background.

"Thanks, Y/N. Knowing that you were watching really pushed me to do my best." You giggled at his sweet words as hugged you. "Eew! You're so sweaty! What did I say about not hugging me when you're sweaty?" But your complaint just urged Jaehyun to hug you even tighter which made you both laugh.

"There's an after party at our captain's house. Please come with me and celebrate." He begged with a pout.

"I'm so sorry but I really can't. My groupmates and I need to finalize our presentation for tomorrow's physics oral defense." You said as you caress his cheeks.

"Okay, I understand. Good luck! I know you'll do well tomorrow."

"Thank you! But don't worry, I'll try to follow once we're done." You said before placing a kiss on his cheek. "I need to go now, bye!"

"Bye babe, love you!" He replied as you tried to walk through the crowd.

And so, you worked your ass off for your presentation while Jaehyun drank the night away. After a couple of hours, you gave him a call to tell him that you could still actually make it to the party.

His phone just kept ringing and ringing and you were about to hang up when your called was picked up, however, it wasn't Jaehyun who answered. Instead, you heard weird noises from the other end which you tried to figure out for a minut. Then you realized what you were actually hearing: moans from a girl. But that wasn't the worst part, she was moaning his name. Your heart dropped and you lost sense of your surroundings. This couldn't be happening. Jaehyun would never hurt you, cheat on you. But then you remember what you actually thought of men since the beginning: liars, cheaters, douchebags, incapable of staying loyal to a woman for the rest of their lives, just like your father. You dropped the call and stayed still as everything came crashing down just like how your defenses came down when Jaehyun confessed to you. You realized that that was Jaehyun's effect on you: he brought you up from the misery caused by your parents' separation just to let you down using the same sinful act your father committed. Tears poured from your eyes without stopping and you couldn't help but let out painful and desperate cries as you slowly fell down on the floor. Your friends came to you in a panic and after knowing what transpired, decided to let you sleep in their dorm for the night. Going home wasn't an option when you couldn't even move because of the unexpected pain you unfortunately experienced that night.

However, there was one important thing you didn't know: the girl you heard moaning from the other line had set you and Jaehyun up in this situation. Truth was, Jaehyun was already passed out alone in a room when you called him. A girl who has been desperately trying to get his attention followed him, saw you calling, and took the chance to make you think Jaehyun cheated on you by answering your call on purpose so you would hear her moaning Jaehyun's name. A smart yet very evil move. And it worked.

The next day, you were working so hard to just focus on your group presentation, the last requirement you had to complete in order to graduate high school. You just wanted to get it done so you could go home and sleep, or do a movie marathon, or bake, or whatever activity you can do just to take Jaehyun off your mind. Speaking of Jaehyun, he's been calling and texting you since 9 in the morning. But of course, after what happened last night? He doesn't deserve any ounce of your attention.

The group presentation went smoothly, thank God. Your friends wanted to celebrate but you were totally not in the mood. You apologized and said that you'd go with them next time for sure before saying goodbye and heading straight home. You just passed through the gate when a hand suddenly held your wrist.

"Hey babe! How did your presentation go? It went well I bet." Jaehyun said enthusiastically as he walked alongside you. You gave no response.

"You've been ignoring my texts and calls. Is something wrong?"

Still no response.

"Babe.. what's wrong? Is it because I didn't text you goodnight last night? Or because I wasn't able to pick you up this morning? Or both?"

No response, again.

"Sorry. I got knocked out last night, that's why. I'm so sorry. Don't worry, I'll make it up to you! Let's watch a movie then have dinner then have dessert at the newly opened cafe. How 'bout that? Or we can just stay at my place and cook?" He said this from being apologetic to being overly excited. But still, he hasn't received any response, which pushed him to stand right in front of you.

"Babe. I know I did something wrong. And I'm really really sorry. Please don't be mad at me. I promise I won't do it again. I won't get knocked out ever again. I swear." He finished his sentence by putting up his right hand, his lips pouting. And for the first time since yesterday, you looked him in the eye. Tears were threatening to spill and Jaehyun looked devastated.

"Babe, what's wrong? Why are you cryi-"

"Stop calling me babe." You said as your first few tears fell.

"Wh-what? Why?"

"Simple. Because we're not together anymore." You tried to walk past him but despite his shock and confusion, he was able to stop you again.

"What do you mean by that? I don't understand you. I'm not understanding this whole thing!"

"I heard all of it!"

"Heard what?"

This question triggered you to just break down in front of him. You couldn't hold it any longer. And honestly, Jaehyun looked so clueless and distraught. It was his first time to see you like this.

"Y/N please tell me what's wrong?" You could hear in his voice that he was about to cry too.

"How could you do that to me? I'm not enough?"

"Y/N I really don't know what you're talking about. Heard what? Do what?"

"You were having sex with another girl last night. I heard it when I called your phone. I don't know who picked up, if you picked it up by accident or you intentionally did because you wanted me to hear it. I don't know, Jaehyun. I don't know what to think anymore. I'm tired. So please, just let me go home." You pleaded.

"What the hell are you talking about? Me? I had sex with another girl? That's impossib-"

"You said so yourself, Jaehyun. You were knocked out last night. So how sure are you that you really didn't? There's no point in arguing anymore. Please, just let me go." You walked forward, leaving him alone. Jaehyun was getting broken by the second. He was sure he didn't do it. But you had a point, he was too drunk to remember anything. He ran to reach for you.

"Y/N please, believe me. Believe me I didn't do it. I'd never cheat on you! You know that."

"Do I? Do I really know that? Do I really know you? You know what, I'm back to zero. I really believed in you when you told me all those sweet promises when you confessed to me back then. But look at where we are now. I'm right. You all are the same. You're just like my dad." Your voice and tone were filled with disgust, hurt, and disappointment. You left him alone in the middle of the street. Jaehyun honestly didn't know what to say or do anymore. His memory of last night was hazy and incomplete. But you on the other hand were claiming that you heard it.

You went home and Jaehyun sought his friends out to ask for help. Asking them if they knew anything about the whole thing. One of them, Yuta, told him that all he could remember was that he saw Jaehyun walking up the stairs to one of the guest rooms, heavily intoxicated.

"That's all you know?"

"Yeah dude, I'm so sorry. I can't remember anything else. Didn't see anything suspicious either."

"Thanks. I checked my phone to see the call Y/N was talking about. She called at exactly 10:07PM, I'm pretty sure I was already passed out by that time. The call lasted for a minute. I'm certain I wasn't the one who picked it up. But who? And who made the sounds or noises that Y/N heard?" Jaehyun asked desperately.

Jaehyun pursued you tirelessly in the following days which turned into weeks. He was starting all over again, convincing you that you should give him a chance. He gave you your favorite flowers, chocolates, wrote you love letters. But you weren't having any of it. You've been ignoring his efforts but you started to feel guilty because he was basically spending money on you. You decided to confront him.

"Jaehyun, please. Just stop. Okay? Just stop. I'm done. We're done. I don't want to receive anything from you anymore. Stop spending money on me. Today is the last time."

"Okay, I'll stop buying you gifts. But I'll keep on writing love letters for you. Those are priceless and I will never get tired of doing it because.. because I have a lot to tell you, Y/N. I love y-"

"Enough. I'm not trying to negotiate here. Just stop. Goodbye."

A few weeks later and it was finally your graduation ceremony. You and your batchmates were overjoyed as you threw your hats in the air. For the first time recently, you felt genuinely happy. Pictures here and there, promises to keep in touch were repeatedly exchanged. Jaehyun waited for you to be alone until he approached you.

"Y/N."

"What?"

"Congratulations."

"Same to you."

You could see the hurt in his eyes. You could tell that he really hoped you'd go back to him, but he clearly failed.

"I need to go."

"Wait! I just want to tell you that I love you. I still love you, and I really hope you can forgive me. We may never go back to being lovers but I wish we could be friends again?"

"I'm not sure. Sorry."

"It's okay, you don't have to be sorry. I understand. I'll see you soon, okay?" He said with a sad but hopeful smile.

His last sentence confused you because from what you knew, Jaehyun will be going to a different university from yours. You left him without saying anything. Leaving high school also meant leaving Jaehyun and the pain he has caused you. You were excited to start anew.

A couple of months have passed and you were now standing right in front of Seoul National University's main entrance. Adrenaline rushing through your veins brought about by nervousness and excitement. You worked so hard to get accepted in this university and you couldn't believe that you were about to begin your first day of being one of their students.

You entered the main auditorium to attend the orientation for all new students. The lecture lasted for 5 hours until lunch.

"Let's have lunch at the cafeteria! I heard that their tuna kimbap is really good." Seulgi said. She's a new friend you met at the orientation who happened to be in the same course as you.

"Really? I'd love to try. But I'll go to the restroom first. Okay?"

"Sure, I'll just read the announcements on the bulletin board as I wait."

After a few minutes, you got out of the restroom only to be stopped by someone with a familiar voice.

"Y/N!"

You froze for a second, not sure if it was right to even consider that the voice belonged to Jaehyun.

"Jaehyun? What are you you doing here?" You asked with heightened surprise after turning around.

"I study here, just like you." He said with a nervous smile.

"But.. But why? Didn't Yonsei University offer you the best scholarship deal in exchange for you playing for their basketball team?"

"Well yeah, they did. But I decided to go here instead, Architecture here is the best in the country anyway. But I went here.. mainly because of you."

Jaehyun gathered all the courage he could muster to tell you that last sentence. You were speechless. You didn't know what to say and Jaehyun could see this, so he continued.

"To be honest, I didn't know how you would react. I am aware that my decision to go here can make things worse, can push you even further away from me, or it can bring us together again. Honestly, Y/N.. I.. I don't know anymore. But what I know is this is my last attempt to prove to you that I love you and I'm loyal to you."

Jaehyun had a pained expression that you've never seen before, this was the worst and you swore to God that it stabbed you straight in the heart.

"Is this what you meant by the "I'll see you soon." that you told me on our graduation day? I'm sorry but I have to go now. My friend is waiting. Bye." You said as you tried to hide your tears, you couldn't let him see you get affected by his decision and by what he just said. You felt so vulnerable at that moment and you just wanted to leave.

"Let's go!" You whispered to Seulgi as the two of you hurried away. Seulgi gave Jaehyun a confused look. After a few minutes, you found a table at the cafeteria and were waiting for your food.

"Who's that super handsome guy you were talking to?"

"My ex."

"Wow, you have an handsome ex.. you look surprised that he's here. You didn't know he was gonna go here?"

"Nope. He was the MVP of our high school's basketball team and from what I know, Yonsei university offered him a scholarship. I thought he was gonna go there, but he's here instead."

"But why? Because of you?"

You looked up to Seulgi with wide eyes. She caught on quickly.

"Well, that's what he said."

"Ooh girl, that's so sweet! He went here to be with you again?" Seulgi squealed.

"It's stressing me out to be honest."

"Aww but why? Why did the two of you break up anyway?"

"He cheated."

Seulgi's jaw dropped in shock. "Wow.. okay I take back what I said. He's not sweet!"

You laughed at her statement as your meals have arrived.

"So what are you gonna do now? If he really went here because of you, then he must be so persistent. Are you gonna give him a chance?"

"I don't know. Actually, I'm still in shock to find out he decided to study here because of me. I was pretty determined not to give him a second chance. But now.. I'm not so sure anymore."

"How did you find out he cheated? Like, you actually saw him with another girl?"

"No. I called his phone and he picked it up but instead of hearing his voice I heard a girl.. moaning his name." You said the last few words with such distaste.

"Damn, that sucks! You also heard Jaehyun make those.. noises?"

"No."

"Hmm.. but if you didn't actually see them or hear his voice on the other end, then what's your actual proof that he cheated?"

Seulgi's question made you think. Really hard.

"And why would he answer his phone when he's.. doing the deed?"

You just sat there, spaced out and not even touching your food.

"Hey Y/N, I'm so sorry. I'm not defending him or anything! Don't mind the things I just said." Seulgi said with a little panic.

"It's okay, Seulgi. I know you're just concerned. Thanks." You said as you gave the girl an assuring smile. The two of you finished your lunch and spent the rest of the day together.

You became extra cautious because you didn't want to bump into Jaehyun again. You weren't sure how you would react, what you would do, or what you would say. No idea at all. You hated the fact that he was there because it made you extremely vulnerable and clueless. However, you couldn't deny that you were greatly flattered by his decision to study at SNU because of you.

"Good thing the Architecture building is far away from us. Higher chance of not seeing him again." Seulgi said in an attempt to comfort you.

"I know right. That's a good thing." And with that, you and Seulgi headed to the women's dorm where both of you lived in.

The next morning, you went to the cafeteria alone to grab a quick breakfast. You were in line waiting for your change and food when you saw Jaehyun. He was seating with his newfound friends which you guessed were Architecture students like him. He caught you staring at him but you quickly looked away as he gave you a smile. You went to a table far away from him the moment you got your order. You were hoping that he wouldn't follow you. But of course he did.

"Good morning, Y/N." He said as he sat across from you.

"Good morning, I guess."

"So, how was your first day? You were with a new friend yesterday. That's good."

"Sorry, I'm not in the mood to talk. I'm in a hurry." You said as you tried to dismiss him.

"Oh, okay. What's your first class for today?"

You figured out he wouldn't stop talking to you so you just went on with it.

"Medieval Literature."

"Really? Same! At the College of Humanities building?"

"Yeah."

"So we're classmates, then?" He asked excitedly.

"Maybe." Honestly, you were surprised to find out that you share a same class. In this university that has thousands of students and hundreds of sections and classes, you were placed in the same Tuesday morning class. How would you avoid him now?

"Our class starts in 30 minutes and getting there takes around 10 minutes."

"I know. No need to compute for me."

"I'm just.. saying."

You suddenly stood up and started the 10-minute walk to the building.

"Hey! Wait!" Jaehyun yelled as he tried to catch up with you. It's official, there's no escaping this man for this morning.

Once you arrived at the room, you tried to find a lone empty seat so that Jaehyun wouldn't be able to sit next to you, but you failed. The two of you ended up sitting next to each other. Jaehyun felt your irritation increase by the second so he decided to keep quiet for the rest of the class. While taking notes and listening to the professor, you couldn't help but secretly glance at the guy next to you. Him sitting right beside you during a class felt so familiar and warm. The second time that day, he caught you staring and he smiled at you. You looked away, again. You felt so conflicted. You liked the feeling of being close to him, it's a feeling that you actually missed. But at the same time, you hated it. You've been telling yourself that college was supposed to be a healing time for you. A time where you will heal and find yourself again. But how would you do that when the cause of your pain is just right beside you? You felt tears were starting to form in your eyes but thankfully, the professor dismissed you just in time. You walked briskly to the door so Jaehyun would get the hint that you did not want to be followed, but he didn't.

"Hey, Y/N! Where's your next class? I have free time starting now up to lunch time. Maybe we can get lunch together? I'll wait for you."

"No thanks. My next class is with Seulgi and we already agreed to have lunch together."

"Seulgi? Is that the girl you were with yesterday? Maybe I can be friends with her too-".

"Jaehyun?" You asked as you suddenly stopped in your tracks to face him.

"Yes?"

"Stop. Okay? Just let me fucking breathe. I don't want this. Stay away from me. Got it?" You didn't wait for his answer and continued walking away.

"I can't."

"What?"

"I said I can't. I can't stay away from you and just let you go when in fact I didn't do anything wrong. Y/N, I'll beg you once again. Please believe me. I didn't cheat. I'd never do that to you."

As you listened to his pleas, you remembered the questions Seulgi brought up yesterday. You just stared at the ground as different thoughts ran in your mind.

"Y/N, you okay?" Jaehyun asked as he tried to hold your hands.

"Yeah, I'm fine. I need to go." You said as you quickly backed away. Couldn't risk any skin contact or you might waver even more.

The next few days were the same. You being more cautious of your surroundings than usual and Jaehyun trying to start all over with you again. If not for Seulgi, you wouldn't have anyone to listen to your rants.

"Geez, Jaehyun's not giving up anytime, is he?" Seulgi asked while you were in the library.

"I know right. I'm getting tired. Same shit, different day." You said with much exasperation.

Time passed by so quickly and the end of your first semester was approaching already. You wanted to give yourself a pat on the back for surviving your academics and for maintaining distance from Jaehyun. One afternoon, you got to go home early as your last class got cancelled. You were walking to your dorm when you saw a familiar girl at the entrance. She was one of the girls who relentlessly tried flirting with Jaehyun back in the day. You decided to ignore her but she's the one who approached you.

"Hey, Y/N. Do you- do you remember me?"

"Of course. You're Ye-seul, one of the girls who tried to snatch my then-boyfriend." You said nonchalantly. "What are you doing here? You study here too?"

"Actually no, I'm just here to.. admit a huge mistake I did."

You became suspicious with what she just said. "Huge mistake? What do I have to do with that huge mistake?"

The girl was obviously nervous with her eyes looking everywhere but you. She took a deep breath before she continued, "Remember that night when our basketball team won the championship? Everyone went to the team captain's house to celebrate and when there's a celebration, there's alcohol."

You tried to process what she has said so far and figured out that she was referring to the night when Jaehyun apparently cheated on you.

"Yeah. What about that?" You asked, not liking where this was going.

"You called Jaehyun's phone that night. Around 10:00PM, right?"

"Yes, and how the hell did you know that?"

"Because.. I'm the one who answered it." She said as she pursed her lips and clenched her fists to stop them from shaking. It was like she just admitted to a crime.

"What?" Was all you could say.

"I picked up Jaehyun's phone when I saw you were the one calling him.. and then.. once I was sure you were on the line. I started.." By now she was already crying and couldn't go on.

"Stop crying and continue what you were saying." You said harshly. She can't stop now that she has started, can she?

"And then.. I started making out with him even though he was passed out. I moaned out his name even though he wasn't doing anything to me. It was all staged and it's all on me. But trust me, I didn't go further than that. Nothing more than kisses. I stopped right away after you hung up. I did it hoping that the two of you would break up."

"And you succeeded. We broke up and now both of us have been in pain for months. We've been hurting each other. Why now? After all these months why did you decide to speak up now?"

"Because I heard that Jaehyun studied here to try to get you back. That's when I realized that no matter what happens, he'll just keep on coming back to you. And I just.. felt so guilty for what I did. I'm so sorry, Y/N." She said before she broke down to tears.

You didn't know what to say. Seulgi was right for implying that you didn't have an actual proof that Jaehyun cheated on you. All this time, Jaehyun has been telling you the truth but you just kept pushing him away. All you wanted to do now was find him and talk to him.

"You did a very horrible thing, but I'd like to thank you for admitting your mistake. At least now, everything is cleared up." You said before leaving the girl alone.

You ran despite not knowing where Jaehyun was. You called him but he wasn't answering. You went to the basketball court, the library, classrooms, and the field, but he was nowhere to be found. Seulgi saw you sitting at one of the benches.

"Hey, why are you catching your breath? What have you been doing?"

"I'm looking for Jaehyun. Did you see him? Do you know where he is?"

"Jaehyun? I saw him at the school registrar around fifteen minutes ago. Why are you looking for him?"

"The registrar? But why? What's he doing there?"

"Oh, you didn't know? I heard he's dropping out."

"What?!" You asked as you stood up. Seulgi was taken aback.

"That's what they said. He's dropping out. Why are you so affected?"

"It's true that he didn't cheat. The girl he was with that night just admitted it to me. It was all a set-up. Anyway, I need to talk to him. See you later!" You said before you ran to the office of the registrar. Seulgi didn't even have a chance to say anything.

You reached the office but he was no longer there. You didn't know where else to go so you decide to head to the boys' dorm. Girls weren't allowed there so you just stayed outside the building at one of the benches. It's already 5:45PM, the sun was setting, and you were tired from running around, so you accidentally fell asleep. A few minutes later, you felt someone was trying to wake you up.

"Y/N, wake up."

You woke up quickly as soon as you heard the voice. "Jaehyun?"

"What are you doing here? How long have you been waiting?"

"I've been calling you. You weren't answering."

"Oh, I left my phone in my room. What's it about?" He asked as he flashed you his signature cute smile.

"I..." You looked away and you realized that you've been looking for the guy for almost an hour now without knowing what to actually say to him.

"What?"

"You're dropping out?"

Jaehyun seemed to be surprised with your question. "Uhh yeah. How did you know?"

"Seulgi told me that's what she heard. Why are you dropping out?"

Jaehyun let out a dry laugh. "Why? Let's just say I don't have a reason to stay here anymore." He replied while masking his pain with a fake smile.

"But you said Architecture here is the best in the country. So why are you leaving?"

"Y/N.. my course doesn't have anything to do with my decision to leave."

"So what's the real reason you're dropping out?"

Jaehyun looked directly in your eyes in surprise and then looked away before replying, "I told myself I'd stay here for only one semester to see if I can change things between us. But obviously I failed. Again. So now I'm leaving."

He gave you a chance to say anything but you stayed speechless.

"You don't have to worry about me anymore, Y/N. You're free now. I won't bother you again, ever. I promise." He tried to put on a happy smile as he said this but it was obvious he was hurting. Of course he was. He didn't do anything wrong after all.

"You're not going back to your dorm yet? It's dark alrea-"

"Will you stay if I ask you to?"

Jaehyun was taken aback with your question. It was his turn now to be speechless.

"You remember Ye-seul?"

"Uhm.. yeah. She's one of our cheerleaders back in high school. Why?"

"She always tried to flirt with you, right? She was here this afternoon."

"Okay. I didn't know about that."

"She went here to admit something to me. She said she was the girl who was with you that night. The one I heard moaning your name from the other end of the line."

Jaehyun looked extremely confused.

"What? Come again?"

"She said it was all staged. She made out with you while you were unconscious because of the alcohol. She's the one who picked up your phone when I called you and made sure that I heard the sexual sounds she was making. She did it so I'd think you were cheating on me which would result to the two of us breaking up." Jaehyun just looked at you as he processed everything you just said.

"Sorry, I know it's a lot to take in. I haven't absorbed everything either."

"Yeah, I remember she was at the party that night. But I don't remember ever interacting with her that time."

"I believe she planned everything perfectly."

"Yes, she did. It worked, as both of us can see."

Jaehyun's last statement was followed by a long moment of awkward silence.

"So, I guess you've been.. telling me the truth this whole time."

"Right, that's what I've been doing. So, do you believe me now?" Jaehyun asked with so much hope.

"Let me ask you again. Will you stay if I ask you to? You didn't answer earlier so I have to ask again." You said with an equal amount of hope.

Jaehyun didn't answer but kissed you fervently instead. It's been such a long time since you last felt his lips on yours and you were 100% certain that it still is the best feeling in the world. You never thought you'd kiss him again and he on the other hand has hoped for this moment to come again. After almost a minute, the two of you broke the kiss to catch your breaths.

"God Y/N, I love you so much. You have no idea."

"I think I do." You replied while looking at his entire face, something you've been avoiding to do these past several months. While doing so, tears started falling from your eyes, "Y/N what's wrong? Don't cry. I'm here." Jaehyun said as he wiped the tears away. "That's exactly why I'm crying. Because you're here. You always are. Even though I did everything I could to push you away, you're still here. You never left." You said as you cried hysterically, not holding back anymore. "I told you, I'm not like your dad. I'll never leave you." He said before embracing you tightly. "Wanna get dinner? This will be our first date in around seven months." He said excitedly. "Sure! That would be great." You replied, and then he kissed you again.

On the way to the cafe around the block, you asked him, "So, you're not dropping out anymore?".

"Nope. You want me to stay, right? So I will." He said as he squeezed your hand tighter, a physical form of assurance.

You had an amazing date with Jaehyun that night. You caught up with each other's stories, achievements, problems, concerns, everything. You knew that he was still the same Jaehyun you met back in high school but at the same time you felt like you were getting to know him all over again. It was a surreal feeling.

Both of your dorms had a curfew so you had to leave the cafe early. He walked you back to your dorm.

"I'll pick you up here tomorrow morning?"

"Yes, Mr. Breadface." You said as you pinched his squishy cheeks.

"I missed that nickname." He said before he kissed you good night. "Good night, babe. I love you."

"I love you too. See you tomorrow!" You replied as you entered the dorm. He waved at you before you closed the door.

"You look so happy, Y/N. What happened? Did you find Jaehyun? You got to talk to him?" Seulgi asked curiously.

"Actually, we're together again."

"OMG. That explains the happiness on your face. You look so in love. I'm happy for you!" She said as she hugged you.

"Thanks, Seulgi! Thanks for listening to all my rants. Finally, I'm happy again."

"You're welcome! I got your back, girl!"

The next morning, you saw Jaehyun outside your dorm, waiting for you.

"Good morning, love." He said, showing you his dimples before he kissed you.

"Good morning. Breakfast?" You said as you slipped your hand in his.

"Sure. No better way to start your day than having your favorite meal with your favorite person."

"Geez. You're still as cheesy as ever." You said as you lightly smacked his shoulder.

"I love you, Y/N."

"I love you too."

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