#let dany and aegon be a family <3< /div> Explore tagged Tumblr posts

[sunny12th]

everyone wants aegon versus dany but what about aegon AND dany exact righteous vengeance together while also trauma bonding

[lavalais76]

It's possible Jon is the real AEGON Targaryen. The TOJ story NEVER made any sense to me and it's possible D&D told us exactly who Jon really was. Shout out to Ryan Barns13 for your hard work and convincing me that this is DEFINITELY possible.

RyanBarnes13

Jon the Martell, and The Prince that was promised to Sansa Stark.

One of the two biggest mysteries in the series has always been who is Jon’s parents, and who exactly is Aegon who has a song, the song of ice and fire. Many theories abound, R+L=J, B+A=J, N+A=J, Dany and Jon siblings, Meera and Jon siblings, hell if we look hard enough we could prob find moonboy buttfucking satin with a time traveling fetus tyrion opening a wormhole or some stuff to create Jon.

But I’d like to throw out a idea. Martin was totally honest with us on who Aegon the promised prince and song is. While letting us jump down every rabbit hole we can find trying to convince ourselves. Basically he told us the correct answer in the first books, but did not give us the how and why until ADWD and Fire and Blood.

Standard thinking says he’s Lyanna’s and Rhaegars, it makes sense on a surface level. They run off together, screw, have a baby, brother comes along and raises the trueborn or bastard born kid. Sends him off to the wall to protect him from Robert. Easy, cut and dried slam dunk. And utterly not born out in the text.

This story is denied over and over throughout the text, by people who were alive and around both characters. And the consensus of almost all is Rhaegar was not like that. Neither was Lyanna.

But what evidence is there for Jon being R+L=J? Truthfully??? Only 3 things. And that is how Martin has utterly sat back and let every single one of us trick ourselves. Because everyone of those things actually points to him being a Martell/Targaryen.

So let’s take a actual look at these three things.what are they? 1. Where Jon grew up at. Winterfell screams he is a Stark of some sort. 2. Jon’s looks. Jon’s long face, his dark brownish hair. Grey eyes so dark they look black. His skin tone. 3. And last but not least Jon has a direwolf, just like all the starks.

Winterfell. Just by Jon starting there we are biased to believe that’s his home and family. If he grew up on high garden, riverrun, we would be inclined to think that’s his home. On this one, we don’t know the full story. What happened at starfall, TOJ, but yes I have a theory about it. Next post. But why was there three kingsguard at the TOJ? Guarding a unborn babe? No the hidden gem, is that Jon/Aegon was smuggled out of Dragonstone to Starfall as soon as he was born.

He was never presented to the court as Rhaenys was. The fake Aegon baby was a seed from Dragonstone. The answer lies in Fire and Blood.

“Why be a lord when you can be a king?” he told the men who began to gather round him. And talk was heard in camp of a prophecy of ancient days that said, “When the hammer shall fall upon the dragon, a new king shall arise, and none shall stand before him.” Whence came these words remains a mystery (not from Hammer himself, who could neither read nor write), but within a few days every man at Tumbleton had heard them.”

— Fire & Blood: 300 Years Before A Game of Thrones (A Targaryen History) (A Song of Ice and Fire Book 1) by George R. R. Martin

The missing prophecy that turned Rhaegar into being a warrior. But if you are preparing for a war, you protect the heir. It’s shown over and over in Fire and Blood. Kingsguard sneak the prince or princess to a secure part of the realm and stay there. And what do we have, 3 kingsguard at TOJ, none with Elia, Rhaenys, Aegon, Rhaella, or Viserys the new proclaimed heir. Rhaegar was supposedly disinherited.... but Rhaegar had 3 kingsguard at Trident, 3 at TOJ, and the only one with Aerys is the youngest least experienced, the one Aerys trusts least.....

Notice Harrenhall, 6 were kept with Rhaegar and Aerys, Jaime sent to red keep. What we are missing is what was Lyanna really doing there, and what she forced Ned to promise to do.

2. Jon’s looks.... a huge red herring that is actually tying into two other families. Targaryen and Martell, just as Martin told us. R+E=Jon/Aegon.

2A: Now first off, Jon’s long face..... There is two ways one can define a long face, the shape of the face, more long from forehead to chin than wide from cheek to cheek, or the actual definition of Long Face, straight out of the dictionary. And based on the rampant use of it throughout two continents, it’s the definition not the shape being used. Here it is:

Merriam-Webster: Long Face A facial expression of sadness or melancholy

Cambridge Dictionary: Long Face If you have a long face, you look sad

It’s a description of their facial expression. Basically they are always sad or gloomy looking. Not a Stark only feature. Now who all has said face in ASOIAF, and Fire and Blood?

The most important two, pure blooded Targaryens:

Vaegon Targaryen. Long face, silver gold hair, purple eyes Alyssa Targaryen. Long face, one eye violet and one green, blond hair

The North: Eddard Stark. Long face Jon Snow. Long face Alys Karstark. Long faced Dacey Mormont. Long face that lights up, long features. (Long face, and also long face shape) Arya Stark. Long face. (Long face, and also horse face)

Iron Islands: See Harris Harlaw. Tall man, long faced and austere

Essos: Hizdahr zo Loraq. Long faced Haldan Half-maester. He had the same sour look on his long face The Little Pigeon Soldiers. All 8 were long-faced and long legged

Now here’s the facial shape long faces people

Del- a horsefaced youth near Jon’s own age. Arya Stark- a horsey grin, long face, long horsey face, her face was long and horsey Edd Tollett- horse faces fool, long face akin to a mules Brienne- horse faced Dacey Mormont long face that lights up, long features

2B: His grey eyes that are so dark they appear black....

Basically his eyes aren’t grey. Everyone assumes it’s super dark grey because Ned says he is Jon’s father. But once you get into the very dark grey and very dark purple, almost black the colors bleed into almost the same. Look up violet. And you find greyish violet to more of a purple to a violet so dark it’s almost black. It’s Martin trickery. Two of the best super dark colors are raisin and damask. They are dark. A purple so dark it looks black.

Furthermore Jon is famous for being in the shadows, the north, less light, and as we have a very excellent example of Jon’s true eyes...they look black. Aegon III, and fAegon.

First Aegon III

Aegon was a handsome boy[12] with dark purple eyes which looked almost black, and silver hair which was so pale that it was almost white.

Aegon III is Jon with silver hair. Even down to black is his color.

Aegon dressed simply, and in black (always, according to Maester Yandel,[14] most oft according to Archmaester Gyldayn).

Aegon was a joyless man,[7] severely marked by his experiences during the Dance of the Dragons. Mushroom's accounts state that Aegon seldom smiled and laughed even less, even as a boy. According to the dwarf, Aegon could be graceful and courtly when it was required, but at the same time had a darkness within him that never went away.

It’s like Aegon III got reincarnated into Jon Snow......

fAegon.

“Like his sire, Young Griff had blue eyes, but where the father’s eyes were pale, the son’s were dark. By lamplight they turned black, and in the light of dusk they seemed purple. His eyelashes were as long as any woman’s.” ADWD ch 14

2C: His dark brown hair.... plenty of Targaryens have dark brown hair. Especially when they are only half Targaryen. And not always the firstborn...

First the children of Targaryen/Martell lineage:

Prince Baelor Breakspear, (son of Mariah Martell), dark hair, dark eyes

Prince Valarr, son of Prince Baelor and Jena Dondarrion) Brown hair with a streak of silver-gold

Princess Rhaenys, ( daughter of Elia Martell), looks like a Martell according to the wiki. Martells are almost uniformly dark hair, dark eyes.....

King Maekar I and Dyanna Dayne son: Prince Daeron Targaryen- sallow skin, sandy brown hair, blond beard

King Aegon V and Betha Blackwood: Prince Duncan Targaryen. Dark hair

Orys Baratheon black hair black eyes. (Targ father)

Alyssa Velaryon and Rogar Baratheon: Boremund Baratheon firstborn, dark hair Jocelyn Baratheon (second-born), married to Prince Aemon Targaryen, son of Jaehaerys I, dark eyes, black hair And Princess Rhaenys, daughter of Jocelyn and Aemon, black hair, pale violet eyes

(Lucas Strong and Rhaenyra Targaryen). All three sons came out the same...... Lucerys Velaryon brown hair brown eyes Joffery Velaryon brown hair brown eyes Jacaerys Velaryon brown hair brown eyes

2D: And most importantly his skin tone or complexion....

We are given from Bran 1 that Jon’s Skin tone and complexion do not match the rest of the starks or even the first mens.

He was of an age with Robb, but they did not look alike. Jon was slender where Robb was muscular, DARK WHERE ROBB WAS FAIR. Bran 1

Ok so dark where Robb was fair, here is Bran describing Robb in Bran 1:

He was big and broad and growing every day, with his mother’s coloring, THE FAIR SKIN, red-brown hair, and blue eyes of the Tullys of Riverrun.

Robb is first men stock almost all the way through. And he has the FAIR SKIN they are known for.

So what gives Jon his dark skin? Not Stark, not Targaryen, not Dayne. Daynes are first men, and to learn the first men coloring and skin tones one needs to go to the Dornish wiki page. To the Stony Dornish section. And you see the Dornish with the most first men and Andal blood.

Stony Dornishmen live in the passes and heights of the Red Mountains. They have the most Andal and First Men blood.[4][5]... They are FAIR OF SKIN, FRECKLE OR BURN IN THE SUN, and have BROWN or blond hair.[4][5] These include the Yronwoods with their blond hair and blue eyes,[8] the yellow-haired Fowlers,[9] and the pale blond or dark-haired Daynes.

So where does Jon’s dark skin tone come from? The Answer is once again in the Dornish Wiki page.

Salty Dornishmen live along the coasts, mainly along the Broken Arm region, where the Red Mountains stretch out into the Sea of Dorne. These Dornishmen are lithe and dark, with smooth olive skin and long black hair, having been most strongly influenced by the Rhoynar.[4][5] The Martells of Sunspear would be considered salty Dornishmen.[4]

The Martells. Who married into the Targaryen line twice. Mariah Martell married to Daeron II Targaryen, and Elia Martell with Rhaegar.

But the martells are olive skinned, Jon’s is just described as dark where Robb is fair?

Here is the definition of Olive Skin from Wikipedia:

Olive skin is a human skin color spectrum. It is often associated with pigmentation in the Type III[1][2] to Type IV and Type V ranges of the Fitzpatrick scale.[3][4] It generally refers to light or moderate brown, brownish, or tannish skin, and it is often described as having yellowish, greenish, or golden undertones.[5][6][7][8][9][10][11][12][13]

People with olive skin can sometimes become more pale if their sun exposure is limited. Lighter olive skin still tans more easily than does fair skin, and generally still retains notable yellow or greenish undertones.

The following list shows the six categories of the Fitzpatrick scale in relation to the 36 categories of the older von Luschan scale (in parenthesis):[6][7]

Type I (scores 0–6) always burns, never tans (palest; freckles). Type II (scores 7–13) usually burns, tans minimally Type III (scores 14–20) sometimes mild burn, tans uniformly Type IV (scores 21–27) burns minimally, always tans well (moderate brown) Type V (scores 28–34) very rarely burns, tans very easily (dark brown) Type VI (scores 35–36) never burns (deeply pigmented dark brown to darkest brown)

The von Luschan scale really shows the variations. But either way he is darker than his siblings. Darker than first men and Andals usually are.

3. Now for the Jon has to be a stark because he has a dire-wolf... NO he does not need to be a stark to bond with a dire-wolf. There are two main arguments shown in the books.

A: Varamyr Six-skins. He wants to take control of Jon’s wolf. A trained powerful warg can overpower a weaker or untrained warg bond. Mance Rayder said no. Also on this point is the prob hundreds of wargs/skinchangers north of the wall. It’s not unique to the Starks.

B: The Targaryens have the ability also. Brynden Bloodraven is the prime example. He is known to practice magic, be a skinchanger, all that. There is two reasons, targaryen blood itself, as evidenced by the bonding with dragons.

The dragons refusing to go north of the wall. It’s to protect the warg like connection. The dead can pass through. Jon brought 2 dead through. Fire magic can cross, as Melisandre burns Varamir eagle when Stannis attacks.... but warg connections are lost when one part of the bonded pair crosses the wall. Shown by Jon and ghost.

The other part of this is one of the kings beyond the wall and his brother who used the cave system to bypass the wall and attack the north. They used direwolves to guide them through the caves. People besides Starks can bond with direwolves. They have for thousands of years......

And how does Jon get more blood, direwolf bonding blood? Betha Blackwood. Married to Aegon V. The Blackwoods claim to be originally from the north, and the descendants of the Warg King.

This matters because Jon’s wolf is shown to not be the litter mate of the other pups. His eyes are open. Wolves and dogs eyes are blind for several weeks after birth. Ghost eyes are open, meaning he is older. He is a albino, red eyes. Magic, gift of the gods, bloodraven, whatever. But it’s pointing to the fact this wolf isn’t one of the litter, it’s basically a adopted pup of the mother wolf. Hidden with her children. But not one of her grey/black litter.

And we all puzzle over the direwolves names, ghost. If Jon is Rhaegar/Elias son, he has been a ghost the entire series. A dead boy, hidden.

And as for ages not being correct, look at the sheer number of Targaryen children born premature, small babies, same with Martells.

An interesting case in point is tyrion and Jon enroute to the wall..... “Tyrion sighed. “You are remarkably polite for a bastard, Snow. What you see is a dwarf. You are what, twelve?” “Fourteen,” the boy said. “Fourteen, and you’re taller than I will ever be...

Jon looks young. Like several Targaryens growing up. Especially if the normal routine of being born premature happened again. It’s on both sides of his family.

And another case in point.....

““Lord Eddard!” The shout came from the west side of the hall as a handsome stripling of a boy strode forth boldly. Out of his armor, Ser Loras Tyrell looked even younger than his sixteen years.”......

“When the echo of his words had died away, the Knight of Flowers seemed perplexed. “Lord Eddard, what of me?” Ned looked down on him. From on high, Loras Tyrell seemed almost as young as Robb.”

Loras is sixteen, but looks 14 out of armor. Looks as young as Robb..... not Jon who is supposedly the same age as Robb..... no Jon looks even younger...... that’s how Ned hid the two boys together. While lying about their ages...

Stay tuned for part 2.

[horizon-verizon]

those twt and tiktok fans used the the book description when it's convenient, bc it is said that rhaenyra was quick to anger, so are we going to say that she abused her children?? they are such short-sighed people. the maesters hated daemon targaryen, it was said by then that he fucked maidens, that he fucked nettles, they would have loved to paint D as an abuser to his family if existed a minimal sign of that. and this is why i'm so dissapointed in jj (i thought she was a book purist)

Anon refers to these tweets and retweets ladydragonjj made on the day the Daemon-Abuser-for-3-Seconds clip was made known on Twitter:

There are also people going after Jacaerys, saying that it makes "sense" for him to turn out "abusive" as well towards women because he lives in a sexist world where noblewomen are breeders and "F&B is unreliable anyway":

When before, it was just team-greens.

People--those who prefer PoV chapters just in most fiction esp after havign read the main series, misunderstood the point of having sources other than the MCs tell the MC's story(ies) OR those who never read the book--

Ozymalek, who I depicted answering JJ above first, had this to say in a tumblr post before they left tumblr (it's my reblog):

Excerpt:

The Dance era in "Fire and Blood" is something that will fundamentally cause the feelings of cognitive dissonance. I think this is why people initially disliked this book when it first came out. It did not provide easy answers, it was written as a historical account, the in-universe historians were clearly biased. People, however, had trouble realizing who the historians are biased for and against. Team Green would have you think that "F&B" is biased against the Greens, because their allegiance as maesters clearly being to Hightowers notwithstanding, they could not evade simple historical facts: that most of the kingdom supported Rhaenyra, that Greens were horrendously misogynistic and that her usurpation was clearly wrong. That's why, approaching it from the "choose your favorite war criminal" point of view, it was difficult for Greens to accept that their preferred side is so cartoonishly evil - obviously bias must have been involved, even though the only pro-Black narrator of F&B is Mushroom, the rest are Greens. The maester's anti-Targaryen bias, however, manages to sneak in and mess with the reader's balance, causing said cognitive dissonance. It's hard to deal with it as a reader, let alone as a showrunner who's trying to adapt a story in which not everything is set in stone. They incorrectly assumed that, because they are constantly forced to question what is happening in the story, the bias is with the underlying idea that there was a correct side. As such, they assumed that all the inconsistencies result from maesters not choosing to view it that way. Ryan Condal repeatedly stated that he does not want watchers to pick sides, while George RR Martin embraces it and even encourages it (and I think that he himself has picked the Blacks). Such is our nature as human beings. So they decided that they have to balance the scales. Because Greens are poorly developed, they added more characterization for them that contradicts their book personas (abused child bride meow meow Alicent who is clueless about the plans that in the books she herself set in motion, for example) while simultaneously taking the characterization AWAY from team Black members.

I never saw JJ really sell or convey that she herself as a book purist. She just loves the books like many popular creators AND she likes the show even with some critiques here and there. Like a lot of popular creators. She and HallowedHarpy--very good explainers of canon, btw,, the latter esp for Dany's arc and being to Azor Ahai--are those who like HotD for what it is and continue to express reasons why fans should take chill pills for stuff released from the show or do not think of some things as "changes" bc of how the book is written as a historical propaganda tool. Or like some changes that they know are changes, like Rhaenyra's initial anti-warness or her fighting, which they both make a few persuasive points or I know where they are coming from to think so (like GRRM has made Rhaenyra too separate from battle by using the miscarriage thing [there were 3-9 months that Rhaenyra MIGHT have used to properly/fully recover from the stillbirth for her to be absent from Rook's Rest if we ignore the argument of how rulers were not always fighting bc it put them in danger...as what happened to Rhaenys & Aegon at Rook's Rest AND how Criston clearly planned that ambush, likely for her so I can't hate Rhaenrya for not being there but I dislike GRRM for writing that way]...but in the show idk/we don't know how long show!Rhaenyra will take to recover from her miscarriage/Visenya stillbirth either, since in the book, it's said that Rook's Rest happened not that long after the first black council...but time also works funky in the book, so 🤷🏼‍♂️).

Here are some thoughts I've taken down abt HH's convictions (italics are direct quotes and words used in video):

It's from a tiktok called "Feminism: F&B Rhaenyra vs HotD Rhaenyra." I agree and disagree with some points (bc HERE, HERE, (authorial intent, how this is still a fiction piece), HERE, HERE, how we know abt Daemon v Aemond's fight despite no one being up there with them, how we know abt Aegon's 12 yr old "paramour" thru the green-sympathizer Septon Eustace, and just abt every post of mine with the tag "Rhaenyra's characterization" [in particular those where I defend *some* of her decisions]).

Nonetheless, I also don't think it's productive to go shame people for their thoughts...unless they are just (-ist). Even then, the energy.

[winged-wolf-dreamer]

Alt-text: [Home? The word made her feel sad. Ser Jorah had his Bear Island, but what was home to her? A few tales, names recited as solemnly as the words of a prayer, the fading memory of a red door... was Vaes Dothrak to be her home forever? When she looked at the crones of the dosh khaleen, was she looking at her future?]

-A Game of Thrones, Daenerys VI

Reading this paragraph made my analysis brain go brrr, so here's some under the cut

One of the central themes of Dany's whole arc is the search for home, among the Free Cities, the Dothraki, Qarth, Meereen, and ultimately Westeros, but ultimately, what is home to Dany? And it made me think of this in relation to the other heads of the dragon, who I believe, ultimately, to be Dany, Jon Snow, and Tyrion (who I do not think is a Targaryen, but that's a different discussion).

(Side note: While I can see others claiming the dragons beforehand, like Aegon with Rhaegal, I believe these 3 will be the final dragon riders.)

What is home to Dany? It's something she's constantly chasing, searching for. The closest thing she ever had to a home was the house with the red door, the home of a brief childhood of innocence, and she constantly searches for it again as it constantly appears in her chapters. She's terrorized by Viserys even as he does what he can to keep her safe, always fleeing for safety. What's home to her? The Dothraki, a people she was sold into by her dear brother, a people who turned on her as soon as her husband died? Qarth, a city of people who lust over her dragons for the sake of gaining power? Meereen, a city full of those who despise her, even as she does her best to rule and make peace with and compromise her ideals for, even as she seeks to stop the despicable slave trade? Is it Westeros? Westeros, the place she wants to go to, yet a place that is only a collection of names to her, a place of promises, a place of dreams? And what will she bring to Westeros, after her rebirth on the Dothraki Sea? Dragons plant no trees, after all, so what will she bring? Fire and blood? More war and death and destruction, is that what she will bring? Will the people love her for it?

What is home to Jon? He was loved in Winterfell, but not by all. Robb and Arya and Bran and Rickon loved him, and his father did too, fiercely, and let him be raised as equal to his other sons, but how could he be equal? Catelyn hated him, Sansa was cordial with him, for one thing, and even among the family who loved him, what then? "I'm the Lord of Winterfell," Jon shouts when he and Robb train as kids, only for Robb to reply, "You can't be, you're a bastard!" and Jon knows this isn't his place. His father will not even speak of his mother, so she, and by extension, Jon, must be a source of shame, even as the bitter truth lies in the crypts beneath his feet. Winterfell isn't his home, no wonder he joins the Night's Watch first chance he gets. But what is home there? Sure he eventually makes friends, but he is still highborn, the class division lies between them, he is groomed for command, he gets to remain informed of what happens with his father in King's Landing, he gets a second chance when be attempts to desert. And no sooner does he begin to be accepted does he go on the Great Ranging and ordered to turn his cloak and spy on the wildlings, forever sowing doubt in the hearts of many of the order as to where his allegiances lie. Nor can he find a home among the wildlings, among Ygritte and Tormund and Val and Mance, for he seeks to betray them, and no one will thank him for it, no one will love him for it, least of all himself, so there is no home there. And when he is named Lord Commander, even among whispers of being a turncloak, he orders his friends away, Sam to Oldtown, the others to various castles, and buries himself in his duty, even as he compromises it by aiding Stannis, and seeks to abandon it when he hears Arya is a prisoner, for ultimately the Night's Watch isn't his home, his family and his friends are, not a place, and he is killed for it. But when he returns from the dead, what will home be for him? Will he even remember those he loves?

What is home to Tyrion? Casterly Rock? There father is, a father he is so alike, yet the shadows of Joanna and Tysha forever lies between them. His sister? Hates him. His brother? Beloved, but a lie there is between them. And when his brother is named to the Kingsguard, his father doesn't name him heir despite, by all rights, being the heir to the Rock now. And when Tyrion finally asks about it, what does his father say? Never. He will never have the Rock. It will never be his home. And what about King's Landing, the city Tyrion saved from Stannis and the red demon he worships? They hate him, they blame him for Joffrey's actions, they mock him in his trial. Tyrion snaps, he kills his father, flees the country, persuades Aegon to bring war to Westeros and seeks to do the same with Dany. He can't have a home now, so he will instead reduce everything to ashes, and will even sell out the gold of Casterly Rock, the home he wanted, to mercenaries in order to do so. Is that all he is now, one who brings death and destruction in his rage?

Bran and Sansa and Arya, their roads have always been pointed back to Winterfell, to their home. North of the Wall, in the Vale, in Braavos, their journeys will take them home, stronger from their hardships, difficult journeys, but journeys with a destination in mind.

But for Dany and Jon and Tyrion, three lost souls searching for home? What is their goal?

Perhaps they won't find a home.

But they can make it so homes of everyone else, the people they love and the people they hate, the innocents, will remain safe.

[randomestfandoms-ocs]

soo i accidentally have three more new hotd ocs (i blame @ocmerunaway and @ginevrastilinski-ocs

1 – Azalais Martell in Bedroom Hymns

princess of Dorne, an arrangement is made for her to marry Aegon to attempt to foster an alliance with Dorne but no one is counting on a take no shit girl who will slap her new husband in the face and remind him that she is a princess and he will treat her like it they're both very hot tempered and fight all the time, she knows how to be a proper queen in public but in private she tolerates none of his shit (there's also fun sex nonsense and sometimes Aemond gets involved because she's decided that the best way to fix everything wrong with these two assholes is in bed)

2 – Daenyra Targaryen in The Prophecy

aka the fuck canon fix-it incest au Helaena's twin maybe (one of Alicent's kids for sure, birth order TBD) in an attempt to foster an alliance with the Starks, Otto arranges for her to be fostered at Winterfell but after a near-miss assassination attempt (organized by Daemon), she knows that she will not be safe. Cragen helps her escape beyond the wall, where she spends the next several years just herself and her dragon (does her dragon become an ice dragon maybe so), when Jace goes to the wall with Cragen he's shocked to find his long lost aunt Daenyra is a dreamer like her sister and her namesake, comes from a connection to the three-eyed raven which helps her survive when she's beyond the wall she has a vision of the war and how it all ends and spends years trying to find a solution to avoid so much bloodshed Jace finds her beyond the wall, she tells him to get his mother and bring her to King's Landing once everyone is gathered she tells them she has a solution to their war aka, what if the two future kings simply shared a wife and mended the broken family lines their children will be heirs in order of birth not based on which man fathered them and Alicent immediately refuses, thinking she means for Jace to be with Helaena Dany is just like nope nope annul that marriage, let Helaena marry Aemond only if it will make her happy says i'm going to marry them and no one else will die Dany says no more dead Targaryens and also fuck you Otto Hightower specifically, Rhaenyra might not get to be queen but her son still gets to be king Everyone is happy except Daemon and Otto and she and i both feel like that's an acceptable solution

3 – Kelara Valeryon in Secondhand Smoke

Fire priestess across the narrow sea (blood of old Valyria herself, not a dragonrider but has her own abilities) was being abused and used for her powers, Corlys can't help but involve himself one day and saves her, brings her back to Driftmark and then to Dragonstone At Driftmark she is just Kelara but Corlys gives her his name when he brings her to Dragonstone with his family in order to offer her some status/protection, he knows that she could be seen as an other or a threat so by giving her his name, she becomes family and part of their side Jace & Baela ship

[saltywinteradult]

1, 6, 8, 13 for the choose violence ask game <3

1: The character everyone gets wrong. Viserys. No, he was not a good king or a good person. He and he alone created the succession crisis that happens upon his death. If he didn’t want family infighting and a bloody civil war he shouldn’t have treated his and Alicent’s children like shit. Or better yet, he should’ve never remarried at all. (Thankfully most team green people here on tumblr seem to understand this, but elsewhere, not so much.)

Honourable mention: Shiv Roy. That woman is a lesbian, mark my words.

6: Which ship fans are the most annoying? Daensa shippers, who tend to be very smug about shipping two female characters who (in show canon and almost certainly in book canon as well) have conflicting and arguably incompatible goals and ideals which they like to pretend don’t exist. Ship and let ship, but don’t act like you’re morally superior just because you ship two women instead of seeing them as political enemies.

8: Common fandom opinion that everyone is wrong about: no one actually deserves to rule. Some characters, like Jon or Aegon VI or Sansa, have good qualities for a leader and I’m happy to root for them to rule because I think they’d do a good job, but it should never be taken as a given that they deserve it just because of whose kid they are. They need to prove their ability.

13: Worst blorbofication: Daenerys hands down. Most people who blorbofy terrible characters like Tyrion or Aegon II generally don’t deny that their blorbos are terrible people, but that’s what Dany’s stans do and it drives me up the fucking wall. ”She’s just a teenage girl and she’s still learning how to rule and she’s got good intentions (and is it really that bad if a few thousand brown people suffer and die as a result of her incompetence)...”

[fromtheboundlesssea]

All Wars Must End: loving your story just have a few questions:

1. Will Dyana or his other predatory behaviours appear in the story?

2. Will Aegon forbide Vael from seeing Jahaera?

3. What will her relationship with Alicent be like?

4. Will there be flashbacks?

Dyana herself will not appear, but she will be mentioned. As will Daemon’s predatory behavior because I don’t think many people focus on those as they do with Aegon. In the show, Mysaria suggests bringing a maiden to him in the first episode (I doubt there would be any of age maids in a brothel, these girls would probably be Rhaenyra’s age and considering Mysaria suggesting bringing one with silver hair… she knew what he wanted and who, DESPITE HER BEING ABOUT 14). This will be a blend of some of book canon and show canon so some things will be both amped up and dulled down to get to a more happy medium between the characters. Martin claims Daemon is a gray character, but let’s be real, the man thought the Dany and Drogo stuff was not the r scene it was… so I’m going to try and write these characters as evenly as possible.

He doesn’t outright forbid it, but he doesn’t encourage his daughter to do anything she doesn’t want to do and more often than not she prefers to stay in her own room. So Jaehaera and Valaena do not initially spend a lot of time together. They might share private family meals when Jaehaera wishes to eat with her father and grandmother and Valaena and her brothers are also required to be there.

Valaena’s relationship with Alicent will be strained. She is Rhaenyra’s daughter after all. She has known Valaena since she was born and Valaena was friends with Helaena when they were children. However, considering Valaena will be placed in a similar situation Alicent had been, she will have some sympathy for her step granddaughter/good daughter.

There will be flashbacks, but they will be more like the reflections in Aegon’s chapter where he was thinking back on things. Valaena’s will be a little more clear though because she’s more observant.

[king7doms]

Vague wishlist ideas for various muses. DM me if you're interested in plotting/threading these out <3:

Daenys: The start of the doom of Valyria / the escape. Visenya & Rhaenys: Threads with others during Aegon's conquest, and after (including a soon to be written AU where Rhaenys lives longer), with their rule in Westeros. Viserys I: Ceding the crown to Rhaenyra BEFORE his death, when his health declines, so that there is no question of the succession Viserys III: Staying behind in comfortability in Pentos until after he hears of the dragons being born / finding Dany after the death of Drogo and the dragons hatching. Rhaenyra / Harwin: Them marrying instead of her marrying Laenor (I write both so let's goooooo). Aegon II: Refusing to marry Helaena and/or refusing to be crowned, ceding the crown to Rhaenyra. Helaena: Leaving King's Landing after B&C with Jaehaera and Maelor (verse dependent obvi if you're show based, I will exclude Maelor) either across the narrow sea on Dreamfyre or attempting to seek refuge with Rhaenyra on Dragonstone. Myrcella: Her and Trystane deciding to wed without permission before anyone comes to Dorne to bring her back to King's Landing. Her surviving her trip back to King's Landing and reuniting with her family. Lyanna: Surviving childbirth, either raising Jon herself as a bastard ward, or playing as an aunt to him after letting Ned take him on as a bastard to keep her and her secret with Rhaegar safe. Rhaegar and her surviving and raising Jon, her becoming a second wife to Rhaegar (we ignore the annulment theory here woops but wouldn't if plotted) and Elia. Robb: More in the AU I have (written down somewhere that is clearly not on this blog yet woops) where he does not go to the Red Wedding because he is called away in a battle, but Catelynn and his wife go (could also change) and are killed instead. Him reuniting with his siblings is the most important part for me, thanks. Harwin: Escaping the fire in Harrenhal and surviving, heading back to KL.

[notenoughmuses]

👫 // viserys

Send a 👫and I’ll write four headcanons I have about our muse’s relationship ACCEPTING

1. Viserys is at first in their more canon relationships, trying to be perfect. The mindset he takes with Dany meeting Drogo is the same approach he takes with meeting Rhaenys. This is family after all and he doesn't want her to think ill of him. But after a while he realizes he can let himself go and he doesn't have to look after her like she's Dany 2.0. She's lived her life safe and protected in Dorne not on the run in Essos. This and that notion in general that he and Dany are finally safe and protected is one that hits him hard at some point when they are hanging out, maybe causing some mischief because Rhaenys insisted on it and Viserys cries in relief. He can pause and take a breath for once in his life and be in the moment with family.

2. For our Rhaegar rules verse, Viserys very much tries to live up to the expectations Rhaegar has and much like show Daemon at points feels like he will never amount to any of the expectations his brother, the king has of him and Viserys worries that Rhaegar thinks he will be like their father. But thats why he loves spending time with Rhaenys. He can be himself around her and not worry and he finds himself more and more drawn to her the older she gets. (Sounds so horrible I know but luckily a 4 year age gap between them is decent the older they get!) Viserys starts courting her when she's around 15-16 mainly trying to get a feel for her and if she's into him at all. Rhaegar has marriage alliances sent out, Rhaenys to Robb Stark. Viserys to Arianne Martell. Aegon and Dany to Tyrell family and back up plan, Cersei and Roberts children. Viserys doesn't care though the longer they flirt with one another and the attraction is clear between them and on one fateful night when Rhaegar and children visit Viserys at Dragonstone, Viserys finds himself on a midnight stroll by the beach with Rhaenys and thats when he proposes to her.

3. Being a ward of the usuper is not easy and it's even harder when you see your nice show up posing as her uncles bastard daughter. Viserys pleads with her and Oberyn to take him back with them despite knowing what danger it can put Dorne in. Cersei doesn't know how much longer she can keep two wards under house arrest in Kings Landing and Sansa is enough trouble. Viserys takes advantage of that when the purple wedding happens and Oberyn is to fight the Mountain. He thinks this is his chance to leave to a better place with family. (Not to mention Oberyn tells him of the marriage pact between him and Arianne. Though Vis sees a Martell he'd rather have) but disaster sticks and Rhaenys is nearly caught and put as a "ward" as well once Sansa has fled and Oberyn dead. Viserys though has a way out and he and Rhaenys flee to Dorne.

4. Being 4 years apart I can see them being more like siblings in any AU that they spend quality time in. Same goes for Aegon and Dany and this creates some interesting dynamics Rhaegar did not take into account. Mainly Viserys and Rhaenys ganging up on Rhaegar for things and to go do X Y and Z activities. They both convince Rhaegar to let all four of them go on a tour of the Seven Kingdoms with Viserys being the "responsible leader" (Arthur Dayne and William Darry are also in tow to keep them safe and in check. When they arrive in Winterfell, Viserys is pelted by numerous snowballs that Rhaenys learned to make from the Starks. Both Rhaenys and Viserys gossip the whole time when they arrive in Storms End, Rhaenys holding back a gangly but muscled Viserys from beating up a child. (Joffery. Joffery is an ass and Viserys has anger issues.)

[pterodactylterrace]

"I’d say this

1-Don’t have Laenor simply decide to abandon his grieving mother and father after the death of his sister while also murdering someone in the process. That turned a sympathetic character into someone I honest to god hope suffers forever. The face of Rhaenys when she thinks her son died is gut wrenching

2-Keep Aegon a rapist, but remove the fighting pits. The first is in line with his character. The second is absurd, the guy who supposedly drank and raged after the death of his sons would not watch his bastards murder each other for fun.

3-Entire Green council gets changed pretty much. Remove the Viserys nonsense. Let Criston Cole actually just murder beesbury instead of it being an accident. Let the greens present their actual arguments (Great council precedent, Bastards, Daemon, fear for their safety) and let Aegon and Helaena have their big moments. Allow Cole to crown Aegon and convince him to take the throne. Remove the getting to Aegon first plot line entirely.

4-Daemon should have had his caring moment of carrying Laena’s body. It makes a very evil character seem more human to me.

5-Give Rhaenyra some teeth. She’s just sulking around non stop and constantly asking for her father and Daemon to fix her problems. Either portray her as that (a petty vain noble girl who wants the throne while not willing to fight for it) or commit to her as the girl boss Dany 2.0 they want her to be. This nonsense of Rhaenyra being simultaneously Visenya reborn (unironically in the show instead of a hypocritical lie in the books) doesn’t work if she’s just asking the men around her for help

6-Alicent should have been an active schemer after Driftmark. During the death of Viserys we should have gotten an Alicent monologue where she talks about her life with him and the neglect of the kids. And how she will defy him and crown Aegon

7-No accident for Luke. Let these characters actually intend to do what they do. Aemond was already sympathetic with the changes of the bullying; they didn’t need to whitewash him while demonizing Aegon.

8-DAERON !

9-Have Rhaenyra murder Vaemond like she does in canon. Show that the greens have reasons to fear her.

10-Stop with the Larys Strong feet thing. I get it’s not a feet fetish, but all it does is victimize Alicent further instead of developing the characters.

11-Have Otto show some concern for his family more often. He’s not Tywin Lannister. Otto is a Grey character, he’s a schemer and uses his family members for it, but he does love them. Make that more clear for the audience.

12-Aegon and Sunfyre needed more scenes.

13-Remove the white hart. It’s pointless and just pandering to the Blacks for no reason. And it even fails at that since Criston was there too and he crowns Aegon.

14-I wanted Helaena to be portrayed as a happy young woman, a couple of scenes with Jaehaerys , Maelor and Jaehaera would have been a great way to contrast her character pre and post BC. While also humanizing the children.

15-Remove the Mysaria accent. Please

16-In general we needed a couple more episodes in the season"

https://www.reddit.com/r/TheCitadel/s/2Fyp7C9taw

Oh boy. A LIST!!!

Okie dokie, I’m just gonna go in blind and respond to each point as I go!

Not sure what character was made particularly sympathetic. I agree it was messed up and a pointless change only made to make Rhaenyra look better. It didn’t make Rhaenyra sympathetic imo. Laenor was trying to recommit himself to Rhaenyra, break up with Qarl and play his part. She took everything from him. He was sent away penniless without his dragon, his family or even his shoes. I mean, yeah, it’s great that Laenor escaped, but an innocent person still died.

Still not sure how “pinching and fondling” translates into “rapist”. I mean, I made a whole post about how the two are different, but hey, what do I know? Also, in the books, Gaemon (the kid in the pit) is actually from a sailor from Lys, according to his mother. Also, also, how did Erryk know about the pits if Aegon slips away and evades him? Seems convenient that Erryk just knows about his doings while also admitting to Otto that he doesn’t know what he gets up to. Pick a narrative, does Erryk know what Aegon gets up to or not?

I’m all for changing it to Alicent wanting Aegon to take the throne without the stupid misunderstanding. I would have loved to see him and Helaena flying around KL after being crowned. Instead, they had to take away the one shining moment the greens had and turn it into Rhaenys’s gIrLBoSs moment where she kills hundreds of innocent people, all for the sake of just looking cool. (But they aren’t biased AT ALL) (Like seriously, there was a back exit to the pit that the dragons use, why did she crash through the ceiling and kill a bunch of small folk rather than just going out the big open door???)

Umm… they changed her manner of death. This can’t happen with her canon death. Vhagar roasted her. There wouldn’t be much left to carry… Also, they were going with the angle of “Daemon didn’t care for his second wife, Rhaenyra 4eva!” So, there’s that.

Honestly, I just hate how whiny Rhaenyra is. Nothing is ever her fault, even when it is absolutely her fault and something she could have easily prevented.

All for Alicent wanting the throne for her son.

If it being an accident is what it takes to get some nakie Aemond time… I’m just a ho 🤷🏻‍♀️

All we wanted was a throw away line. They cut it but left in the Rhaenyra and Daemon fucking on the beach scenes. Couldn’t have cut those down to introduce a whole ass character? (But again, they aren’t biased!)

I mean, the same amount of fucks were given in the show and the book. Blows my mind that Daemon can behead a nobleman from a prominent house in open court and face no consequences. No wonder Rhaenyra turned out how she did. Viserys just apparently doesn’t believe in consequences for Targaryens.

It’s meant to show the creepy hold he has over her. She doesn’t want what is happening to happen, but feels she has no choice.

Seems he likes Helaena. That’s enough for me 🥰

Agree. Also, can the dragons just be COLORFUL? So sick of these murky ass color schemes because they wanted to make dragons look “realistic”.

Yeah, I’m not sure what they were trying to do with that whole thing. Was it meant to be a good omen to kill it or something? Usually good omens aren’t achieved through killing things.

We definitely needed more of Helaena and the children. Maybe even highlight how little Aegon seems to care for them.

Was I the only one not offended by it? Yeah, it was odd, but it wasn’t as bad as everyone seems to think, imo.

That is hard to debate because they definitely wanted it to end where it ended, so we need more specifics on where to put these episodes. There were a lot of time jumps to deal with as well, so it gets tricky to lay a blanket statement requesting more.

[ilargizuri]

Also if we spin that Picture further if you melt Ice it becomes Water and later Clouds/Fog depending on the Heat. Water gives Life to the Earth it lets Plants grow and those Plants can give us Food. Which Dany points out in her dialogue with Xaro Xhoan Daxos in ADWD. Fire needs fuel to persist and at some point, it dies, as Maester Aemon pointed out: Fire Consumes but Ice preserves. So yes, even if Snow melts away the Water or Fog will stay and continue to exist, and Fire will die without fuel. About the "Prophecy" that Miri Maaz Duur gave Daenerys. Since someone pointed it out on YT I think that this was not about Daenerys Question, I think it was meant as the last hint of how Magic in that Universe works. If we think about it, there are a lot of stillborn children in the Targaryen Family and Aegon the Conqueror had only ONE legitimate Child with each of his Wifes. And Aenys had a lot of children but was usurped by his Brother who had only 3 stillborn Children and one surviving Bastard who was only rumoured to exist, so it is a fair bet to say: Maegor was infertile ^^

I think when Maggi started to sing I think it was not the horse sacrifice that put Drogo in his later state, but his SON. Dany has the arc in the books which is the most traditional of all if we are talking about fantasy books. And a very traditional sacrifice to save the father is to sacrifice the son. So if Rhaego never really lived but was stillborn, then they wanted to sacrifice a dead unborn son for the life of his father. Sounds like a recipe for disaster to me, which is what it was.

So maybe, Miri Maaz Duur did mean what she said, when Dany has a living Child in her Womb Drogo will return as he was. Maybe that very strange Answer from Miri was just some kind of mnemonic rhyme for People who learn Magic in Asshai to remember what else can be done with the right sacrifice. The Magic just didn't work because they tried to exchange a dead Son for a Life and therefore if Dany has a living child, which can fulfil the Life exchange Drogo can return as he once was. Which won't happen because Dany killed him in their Tent.

"When she saw the Usurper's rebel host across the river they were armored all in ice, but she bathed them in dragonfire and they melted away like dew and turned the Trident into a torrent."-Dany(ASOS III). "Jon was armored in black ice, but his blade burned red in his fist."-Jon(ADWD XII). It seems like she didn't have a vision of defeating Others. So maybe they are her enemies. "In him the prophecies shall be fulfilled, and your enemies will melt away like snow."-Dany(ADWD VI).

Hello Dot! Hope you're fine! It's not a dream about her defeating the Others, the author is trying to trick you by mentioning they're armored in ice. Not only she identifies them as the "Usurper's rebel host" (which included the Stark, Tully and Arryn's armies) but she also identifies herself with "Rhaegar riding to the Trident." And what happened to her brother on the Trident? He got his ribcage crushed like a soda can. The Stallion that Mounts The World is riding towards her death. Also the surrounding context around her enemies melting away like snow makes it clear that it will never happen:

"We are an old people. Ancestors are important to us. Wed Hizdahr zo Loraq and make a son with him, a son whose father is the harpy, whose mother is the dragon. In him the prophecies shall be fulfilled, and your enemies will melt away like snow." He shall be the stallion that mounts the world. Dany knew how it went with prophecies. They were made of words, and words were wind. There would be no son for Loraq, no heir to unite dragon and harpy. When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east, when the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves. Only then would her womb quicken once again… (ADWD Daenerys IV)

She's infertile, so she'll never have a son to solidify a political alliance. Jon Snow and the Stark, Tully and Arryn's armies will remain unmelted.

[horizon-verizon]

If Rhaenyra wasn’t a Targaryen, people would have no problem calling her incompetent, stupid, paranoid, hating her for being spoiled, feminine and refined, and shipping Daemon with GNC Nettles, a dark-skinned, foul-mouthed, filthy, and clever bastard peasant girl who managed to tame a dragon and rode into battle (unlike Rhaenyra).

Rhaenyra was foolish and cruel when it came to her ruling decisions. Instead of sending Joffrey into the field, utilizing his young dragon’s quick speed for reconnaissance against the fled Hightower-Targaryens (or even sending Addam Velaryon to do so and leaving Joffrey as the rider in the Dragonpit), Rhaenyra instead planned a lavish induction ceremony to name him Prince of Dragonstone (using the city’s precious resources strained by war and winter for a party, exactly like Sansa in TWOW, and flaunting her obviously bastard son as the center of it). Instead of offering the Green lords, including the leaderless and ironborn-harried Lannisters, pardons to end the war, Rhaenyra openly awaited the day she could display the heads of the Green leaders as traitors, ensuring that the pro-Green lords would never surrender to her. Convinced that all her new dragonriders were determined to betray her Rhaenyra ordered the arrest of the loyal Addam Velaryon, heir and probable son of Corlys; the decision lost her not simply a dragon and dragonrider, but her most powerful lordly ally and Hand, half her army and her entire remaining naval force. Having concluded that Nettles and Daemon had become romantically involved, Rhaenyra ordered Lord Mooton to execute her while she and Daemon rested at Maidenpool, ordering her bannerman to murder a guest (in defiance of anciently and sacredly held guest right), an innocent (in defiance of the Father’s justice), and a young woman (in defiance of the rules of chivalry). It’s only half a joke to call Rhaenyra “Maegor with teats”; Maegor had fallen specifically because, through his cruelty and anti-Faith policies, he had lost the respect and fealty of lords and smallfolk alike, and Rhaenyra did the same.

Alicent did not force her to make these decisions. Neither did Aegon II. Rhaenyra was a dumb and a cruel woman on her own merits. Let’s hold her accountable and take responsibility of her actions. Unprepared to rule, convinced that her bloodline and her father’s decree alone were sufficient to ensure her rule would not be challenged, Rhaenyra failed to assert herself in the admittedly patriarchal society of Westeros. Vindictive to her enemies and foolish to her allies, Rhaenyra was simply a poor queen.

Anon responding to this post and those it links.

*EDIT (5/31/24): Rhaenyra suffers from really bad sexist writing on GRRM's, not just the maesters', part and it undermines his own point.* And no, she doesn't need to be necessarily "moral" like Dany to be a deserving ruler for what happens to her/her kids to be wrong. Don't let GRRM's bad pathologizing motherhood nor your own possible biases deter you from the seeing & valuing the point he's trying clumsily to make!

The point of her story was to highlight how no matter how good or evil or morally ambiguous a person you are, if you are female, you are subject to losing a power men are just granted. Or usurped. And this is inherently wrong. Rhaenyra chose to go to war rather than give up. This is valuable, and it is the point. Visenya was not thinking "for the realm" or for the benefit of smallfolk or outside of her family, yet she as so many fans bc she was not passive or restricted by "madness". She has less sexist writing.*

A)

1.

Guiding you to this post.

(But if you're able: POST #1, POST #2, POST #3, POST #4, POST #5, POST #6, POST #7, POST #8 – esp Section B, C, & D too)

2.

You: "Instead of sending Joffrey into the field, utilizing his young dragon’s quick speed for reconnaissance against the fled Hightower-Targaryens (or even sending Addam Velaryon to do so and leaving Joffrey as the rider in the Dragonpit), Rhaenyra instead planned a lavish induction ceremony to name him Prince of Dragonstone (using the city’s precious resources strained by war and winter for a party, exactly like Sansa in TWOW, and flaunting her obviously bastard son as the center of it)."

So Rhaenyra was "selfish and cruel" for NOT sending her single-digit-aged son out on a dangerous mission (even reconaissance can and have gone wrong) after his older brother Lucerys had already been killed on a diplomatic mission by his own blood purist, entitled uncle.....anon, I mean this respectfully--are you okay?

"or Addam Velaryon"

No matter the person on this reconnaissance mission, NO ONE KNOWS WHERE AEGON AND HIS KIDS WENT BESIDES THE HIDDEN LARYS!

They went in different directions and Larys specifically does this to divide Rhaenyra's riders/any lookers she sends and make it that much more difficult for her to be assured of her kids and her own safety from any incoming green invaders. To stretch her resources thinner than they already are, which include dragonriders. going after them on dragonback is more of a waste of time and opens her up more to already-mentioned invaders. Try again, let's see what you can come up with that is so much better than what she did already? (sending people after them assumedly on horseback but are not her actual prime defenders or children).

"flaunting her obviously bastard son"

And what would you have her do? Stow away her kid like a bad secret after years of treating him as if he was a person above being a possible bastard? Treating her own son humanely instead of how Alicent would treat any of Aegon and Aemond's bastard kids? Be like a Jaehaerys I 2.0 and abuse/neglect her own kids? Anon, plz, after I block you, stfu. And don't have children or babysit.

"Rhaenyra instead planned a lavish induction ceremony to name him Prince of Dragonstone (using the city’s precious resources strained by war and winter for a party"

Anon speaks of this [at the end] ("Rhaenyra Triumphant"):

**[12/7/23] And Aegon was building two massive GOLD statues of his dead brothers AFTER he killed Rhaenyra and went back to an even more impoverished KL. This is the same Aegon who made a party out of Luke's death when Aemond came back from Storm's End, has always been drunk (leader material?), SAd maids, raped a 12 yr old, ignored his duties in his contemplating his marriage to that Baratheon girl...**

.........................................................

No, as I already said, not all that wise--or really I will correct myself--altruistic. Nor does it reveal her to be the worst or deviant from her crop, so to speak. (Nor was it winter in the "south"/KL until Aegon III's first years of reign.) It is likely she:

felt that while there was no moneys from the royal coffers, she herself would still have money from her time at Dragonstone

Corlys might have been able to lend some money...Joffrey is still his grandson who he would have continued to be aligned with/use for his own ambitions as that's the whole reason why he allowed a Targaryen-Velaryon marriage b/t her and Laenor

there was still enough food and articles of clothing left behind in the castle's reserves for a party and show of power to solidify her and her sons' places to courtiers aka, the nobles both supporting her and those who might not...after all it is the nobles who have enabled her usurpation -> it's when she had to flee KL that she actually had to sell her crown and thus indicating some lack of private funds, not before

It's not as if she and her sons were poor as heck BEFORE she had to flee KL. Yes, she should have thought more about how the smallfolk viewed her as well, and to that, I'd also say to place any other person in her family in her position and they'd do the same. Alicent only wouldn't because she had already crowned Aegon. BUT WARS ARE EXPENSIVE, and after she runs out of her own private funds--even if she had just gave it up getting food for the KL commoners:

she would have the same problem as before after she gave her remaining private funds for food: no money to continue feeding them, esp with what I am about to say....

Aemond burned down one of the major suppliers of food in Westeros' "south" regions: the riverlands and esp their farmer's villages and fields....(so we are blaming rhaenyra for doing what many people would have done anyway, and for something her brother did that he didn't have to do? Sure, Rhaenyra is THE bad guy here)

the Tyrells remained neutral in the bulk of the war because their lord was a child (the Reach seems the number one supplier of grains, vegetables, and especially fruits) and the Hightowers were their "neighbors" who probably would have also tried to block their hypothetical efforts to send food and supplies to Rhaenyra in KL. Even if the Tyrells didn't declare neutrality and fought for her or tried to support her and tried to send food and supplies to her AND even demanded monetary compensation for some reason -- if Rhaenyra gave up her Dragonstone $ to feed the KLers, she'd have no way to pay the Tyrells declared for her and thus no way to feed the commoners. And whether or not the Tyrells demanded compensation, again, the Hightowers would go after them or try to block their wagons of food and supplies.

Do you think she wouldn't have a lavish coronation or investiture with all the ceremonies for Aegon if there was s full-on winter happening so as to take power from Rhaenyra? If not, you're joking yourself, because the whole point of her leaving Viserys' body to rot and pressing the council to name Aegon was to steal time from Rhaenyra and give Aegon the seeming legitimacy right to the throne. When Alicent had the opportunity, she flaunted Meleys' head in the streets of KL, causing several crowd members to try to flee for the gates in fear of retaliation:

This was also a display of dominance to legitimize Aegon's rule in the eyes of a certain public. It tipped the scales of public confidence in Aegon's ability to protect them against the greens, esp after Aegon almost died and was unable to perform his everyday--much less military--duties when he got his disabling burns, unable to get out of bed and having to let Aemond become his Prince Regent. There was an immediate effect proving my point.

Sure, Alicent had more money to expend, a possible surplus, that Rhaenyra did not but bc of those circumstances, she neither had the need to hold back on public displays. And in lieu of the usual highborn-aristocratic ignoring smallfolk needs, she neither had the intent nor concern for any smallfolk needs. If we want to talk about morals or ethics, she'd always prioritize her son's and factions' ambitions or maintenance of position over them...remember that she never performed any sort of noteworthy enough deed for the smallfolk for it to be even recorded in any text. And if we want to talk about strategy, well...she scared the commoners so much she had to lock the gates to prevent the hysteria and movement of bodies from getting to a point that could have gotten really out of hand. Of course, good that she got those gates closed, but displaying the dragon head knowing as if this would bring some the same sort of assurance to KLers as it probably did to her in the same ways and levels was not...wise so much as an aristocratic habit with negative consequences.

So again, why is Rhaenyra made to be the worst person of this bunch when she herself decides to quickly name her oldest remaining son her heir and publicly so, even more so because he is suspected as a bastard so she could give him a stronger claim.

3.

You: "Instead of offering the Green lords, including the leaderless and ironborn-harried Lannisters, pardons to end the war, Rhaenyra openly awaited the day she could display the heads of the Green leaders as traitors, ensuring that the pro-Green lords would never surrender to her."

**[5/31/24] This is what anon refers to ("Rhaenyra Triumphant"):

In this event, Rhaenyra is deliberating with her war council the next course of action for not the green supporters, but her brothers.

Corlys is the one who says they should pardon every single one, including Rhaenyra's brothers who both were offered terms of surrender and safety but both flouted them with Aemond killing her son and Aegon--2x--calling for her head and calling her a "whore". Reminvder, Aemond killed Lucerys and Aegon threw a feast for it BEFORE Blood & Cheese. Nah, they were never going to give up even before Aegon's son, Jaehaerys', death.

Another reminder, Jaehaerys I let go one of the men who helped Maegor, and Alaric Stark resented him for it for a long time since the same guy killed his older brother or was responsible for it in a coup. This man, , was also sent to the Wall, similar to Corlys' suggestion...when he should have been killed bc he repeated his treacherous actions. With the context of a war the couple still had to fight, it's not a surprise nor totally unjustified that they both said they couldn't spare traitors. HOWEVER:

DAEMON is the one to say they should go full scorched earth, total annihilation, saying they should destroy all the Lannisters, Baratheons, etc:

“And what of my half-brothers?” Rhaenyra demanded, when the Sea Snake put this plan before her. “What of this false king Aegon, and the kinslayer Aemond? Would you have me pardon them as well, they who stole my throne and slew my sons?” “Spare them, and send them to the Wall,” Lord Corlys answered. “Let them take the black and live out their lives as men of the Night’s Watch, bound by sacred vows.” “What are vows to oathbreakers?” Queen Rhaenyra demanded. “Their vows did not trouble them when they took my throne.” Prince Daemon echoed the queen’s misgivings. Giving pardons to rebels and traitors only sowed the seeds for fresh rebellions, he insisted. “The war will end when the heads of the traitors are mounted on spikes above the King’s Gate, and not before.” Aegon II would be found in time, “hiding under some rock,” but they could and should bring the war to Aemond and Daeron. The Lannisters and Baratheons should be destroyed as well, so their lands and castles might be given to men who had proved more loyal. Grant Storm’s End to Ulf White and Casterly Rock to Hard Hugh Hammer, the prince proposed…to the horror of the Sea Snake. “Half the lords of Westeros will turn against us if we are so cruel as to destroy two such ancient and noble houses,” Lord Corlys said.

Not Rhaenyra, the one who makes the final decision. RHAENYRA EXPRESSLY DECIDES [above pics]:

Rhaenyra decided to steer a middle course. She would send envoys to Storm’s End and Casterly Rock, offering fair terms and pardons after she had put an end to the usurper’s brothers, who were in the field against her. “Once they are dead, the rest will bend the knee. Slay their dragons, that I might mount their heads upon the walls of my throne room. Let men look upon them in the years to come, that they might know the cost of treason.”

So anon is misinforming. She said to kill her brothers (one a kinslayer and the other the guy who usurped her and threw a party celebrating Lucerys' death), not the lords who supported them...unless they decided to keep fighting. She is doing exactly what anon says she is not doing!

This is another instance, too, where Rhaenyra shows a will that is not just subservient to Daemon, btw.

And Daeron nor his uncle, Lord Ormund Hightower were going to give up bc both had a direct interest in Aegon being king. More than anyone else! Why? Because this was their opportunity to support their closest blood (Otto, Ormund's uncle and thus Aegon's first cousin once removed) to have influence from the throne itself. The Hightowers would this have the most power over every other Green supporting lord, esp since the Tyrells were sitting out for their own protection with their lord just being a baby...Again, read the pics!**

.........................................................

The greens were the ones who usurped her in the first place and by how they took the funds from the royal treasury in order to weaken her for future invasion, I'd say that they were determined to win or die. Aemond would never go down without a fight, mother or not, Aegon had sworn to kill Rhaenyra after she crowned herself twice AND received multiple burns from his attempts to actually fight. After Helaena's death, I doubt Alicent would ever want Rhaenyra alive (again, if Alicent hadn't usurped Rhaenyra and turned her kids against her, her kids and grandkids would all be still alive bc what lord can seriously destroy or threaten the Targs with all their dragons outnumbering those the first 3 conquerors had?! And no, Daemon wouldn't do shit because he only ever targeted a green after Luke died He never initiated a fight, and seemed to just ignore them before Viserys died. Very confident in his own skills).

And once more, Rhaenyra already offered her siblings the chance to surrender, blaming Alicent and Otto for their treachery. Even her brothers. The belief that Daemon would go against her completely comes from the belief that he did not recognize her authority, follow her lead, or have a very strong or respect-full bond with her, and honestly there is no evidence nor suggestion of such a thing.

Otto is the one to offer Dalton Greyjoy a seat as master of ships on the council, the greens basically the ones first to want and invite him to join the war:

("The Blacks and the Greens")

HERE is a post on the greens, the blacks, and Dalton Greyjoy. Otto was the one to think of inviting the ironborn to fight for the greens. If the greens hadn't invited Dalton to join the Lannisters would be less aggrieved. And if the Lannisters didn't want to be so exposed to the ironborn, they either shouldn't exist (bc the ironnborn are going to be themselves regardless of who rules or who asks them over, really, but the invitation made the invasions number more than they would have been by directing Dalton's interests and giving it license) or they should have not joined the greens in usurping Rhaenyra in the first place. So sad, too bad.

**[5/31/24]

leaderless and ironborn-harried Lannisters

Who said they were leaderless? Is Joanna Lannister not enough of a leader for you? She was actively leading armies in the official name of her child-son! And she was fighting against the ironborn that not only Rhaenyra, but the greens enlisted....what time would Joanna have to come to Rhaenyra's defense or Aegon's defense when Joanna couldn't even ensure her own lands defense.**

You: "It’s only half a joke to call Rhaenyra “Maegor with teats”; Maegor had fallen specifically because, through his cruelty and anti-Faith policies, he had lost the respect and fealty of lords and smallfolk alike, and Rhaenyra did the same."

Rhaenyra gets this moniker not because she was actually cruel for no reason other than to be cruel and careless or is taking unnecessary supplies when she already has enough herself (ahem, The Hightower lord who allowed jis army to clear Lady Merryweather's castle even after they got her bid of support just before they go to Tumbleton). She gets it because the coffers, again, are empty and taxed the Kinglanders for many exports, imports, and executions to refill it. Which the greens stole and dispersed much as they did Aegon and his kids. Please, come up with a better way for Rhaenyra to refill these coffers, anon. I mean, I won't be waiting because next time you try to send me something about this, I'm ignoring it and blocking you, but you have that option elsewhere. Since apparently you, under the exact same conditions she was under PLUS having lost two kids, would still be an "excellent" and clearheaded leader. Maybe ask a scientist to make a dimension-travel machine so you can prove it. Or ask Jaehaerys I what he would do if he had no money and was tasked to refill it (he never had this problem, ever), since he's seen as the most intelligent ruler Westeros had by both people in text and most of the vocal fandom.

Yes, it put a lot of pressure on Kingslanders, these taxes and probably the party. But how did this all begin? Did it really need to get here, but for the green's ambitious misogyny? Again, I refute all Daemon-kills-greens and lords-are-actual-threat claims.

You: "Convinced that all her new dragonriders were determined to betray her Rhaenyra ordered the arrest of the loyal Addam Velaryon, heir and probable son of Corlys; the decision lost her not simply a dragon and dragonrider, but her most powerful lordly ally and Hand, half her army and her entire remaining naval force."

I wonder when I ever stated that this wasn't a mistake, mistrusting her own riders after a couple betrayed her? I both see it that way and can see how, if we had a POV, it would be easy to see her twisted rationale to be that the rest of the bastards are as ambitious as Ulf and Hugh, eager to leave behind bastardry with their own castles. Again, twisted and shows she didn't know these others well enough for her to be spitting such things, but I'm also not going to ignore that it's more than likely that she never would have been here, paranoid and vicious if misogyny didn't exist.

You: "Unprepared to rule, convinced that her bloodline and her father’s decree alone were sufficient to ensure her rule would not be challenged, Rhaenyra failed to assert herself in the admittedly patriarchal society of Westeros."

Again, I don't think she'd be a horrible ruler like Aegon would have been (he does not face misogyny or any sort of discrimination and never will, so what's his excuse?!) if she hadn't been usurped. Mediocre maybe, but not terrible. She became tyrannical, she wasn't always.

By your way, Rhaenyra's so-so rule as a Queen is equal to mediocre kings and male heirs' rule in terms of societal acceptance and assessment. And according to you, her paranoia and how it came to be is exactly the same as how male King's or heirs' paranoia, cruelty, etc developed (let's say Aerys II and Aegon IV) who do not come up against the already hostile-to-women environment and ploy of ambitious lords sing said misogyny). Okay sure.

B)

You: "Rhaenyra was foolish and cruel when it came to her ruling decisions." [your basic argument, repeated over and over]

If you hate Rhaenyra for weaponizing misogynoir/being racist and sexist against Nettles, you're valid and correct for hating her. Her past doesn't erase those things. But to act as if her past also means nothing, doesn't tell us anything or really matter as to how she became a tyrant is ridiculous, self-contradictory, and pointless because you read the text and now you wish to ignore the plot altogether?! To act as if she is so different from everyone around her, morally deviant enough from everyone else of her time to be claimed as "The Evil" before her retaking King's Landing is blind-talk.

And look, it's not anyone's fault but your own that you can't see the true evil(s) in the ASoIaF world/story are not the Targaryens -> the complicated but passionate members and their dragons. You had the wrong idea if you think you're going to get me to concede on that. The Targs rather reveal everything wrong with Andal/FM patriarchal feudalism and its prioritization of power for power's sake by becoming its thematic mirror (what happens when feudal lords have dragons?!), yet still, even producing a few members who see the wrongs and actually try to fix them. More than what any other Andal/FM descent lord/lady has tried to do for the last thousands of years.

To hate and assign blame to the Targs (& Rhaenyra) for everything that makes the Andal-FM Westerosi society wrong or chaotic when:

Andal-FM society's many injustices and inherent, systematic flaws stem from their own development before the Targs ever came to Westeros. While the Targs assimilated in order to stay in power and definitely assimilated/adopted many Andal-FM customs & practices instead of working to change/abolish them in each generation for more altruistic purposes, the Targs are also not the lords' parents no matter the feudal idea of being a "model" to your subjects. If this system has the monarch and nobles share power (as happens in a feudal monarchy), then the responsibility for change also rests on the lords themselves. And there are limits to what the lords are willing to sacrifice or risk to stay in said power. The Targs are not more nor less evil than those lords for acting similarly.

the other side of the hate towards the Targs is their supposed refusal to "respect" those same laws and customs towards succession, gender roles, behavior, etc or follow them to the letter to be "better" rulers. So which is it? The Targs are the enemy of the good and poor, vulnerable Andal-FM Westerosi nobles and smallfolk (argument of them being too disrespectful and culture-destroying colonizers/tyrants) -- OR -- are they not progressive enough to lead the Andal-FM Westerosi into a better world? (argument of them being a plague on Westerosi)

this is a feudal, monarchist society and Andal-Westerosi are not exempt from trying for power and being violent, even having tried in the past to marry into the Targ household to have dragons themselves (Lannisters and Rhaena). The Targs themselves can be and have been manipulated by other house members.

some have tried to argue with me that Alicent is a better ruler/queen for Westeros. Alicent. Alicent, who herself comes from a background that wishes to subjugate anyone who is not legitimate, pale, aristocratic and male. Alicent, who is a heavy-duty blood purist who never looked out for other women. Not a one. Never herself pushed for policies making any person's life better. Even seizes power from another woman entirely for herself and her house's patriarchal prestige and power by using the status of her kids being Targ scions and dragonriders themselves to obtain more power. Apparently, because Alicent is more strategic, her traditionalist-Faith-driven misogyny and proven attempts to suppress female autonomy don't matter in the assessment of her leadership, but it definitely matters for Rhaenyra (the person Alicent purposefully targets) ! Same for her kids, but even worse as all are mentally checked out, more entitled, actually violent and rapists for no reason, or too lazy.

It's not about Targness and people loving Targs, it's just that the Targs incidentally happen to be the people in power that everyone else wishes to borrow or steal power from.

No matter who Rhaenyra was before King's Landing or after, Rhaenyra was "vulnerable" to this due to her gender's inequitable access to higher positions of power in Westeros. Because it was never about her character for the lords/the greens/Alicent, it was about her gender.

You try a person long enough, they are more likely (not definitely, LIKELY) to bite back or use any chance to gain back power. Though like Alicent, Aegon, Aemond, and Daeron in performing blood purist hate (or at the very least using blood purity) Rhaenyra was never a tyrant before King's Landing and the greens' usurpation, nor was she without self-control nor untrusting even with her being impatient and impulsive.

*EDIT* (8/21/23):

THIS is a great post by @mononijikayu about medieval queens, female rulers, the history of how women in leadership positions were made and seen as threats to the very structure of social "order", and contextualizing Rhaenyra thru Empress Matilda. I didn't even know about Matilda's husband being comparable to Rhaneyra's Daemon! PLZ READ!!!!

Excerpt:

just as much, along with these fictitious portrayals, more lies are depicted. these women are considered vixens that cause havoc to men by shifting them into desires and danger. through the written word, we see how women are cast in roles of villains in men’s lives. it is because by their conclusive thoughts, women are the only creatures that are able to turn ‘good honorable men’ into despicable creatures who do shameful, deplorable acts for the sake of women’s pleasures.  [...] it is within this narrative that ancient chroniclers declare that women were in fact the doom of men. if they were not able to control the dangers posed by the wiles of women, then the foundations of the mighty society they had built would be up in flames.  [...] as i mentioned, these factors of community are written down and preserved. and with that, the example of the ancients were the foundations by which medieval society built itself. the same concepts continued to cause the same issue within society and that was the exclusion of women from participating in the bigger picture of community and state, much so with governing states in their own right—without judgment or disapproval. 

[sakura-haruka]

It’s something that has been annoying me for a very long time. Why the writers of Game of thrones/house of the dragon feel the need to make so many antagonists sexual predators.

I’m gonna take 3 very obvious examples:

Joffrey Baratheon: Did we need the se*ual assault and murder of the two prostitutes to understand what kind of boy he was. We saw him torture Sansa again and again, killing kids, being a coward…Did we really need to see him torture those women? Some will argue that it was to show us what man he would become but I think we got a pretty good idea of what kind of man he was.

Ramsay Bolton: he was the worst monster you could imagine, he r*ped women (off screen), chase them with his dogs, tortured Theon, skinned people alive for fun. We knew who he was, what he was. The r*pe of Sansa was just to shock the audience, it was no character development, certainly not for Sansa, that girl went through so much already, way too much. That scene was just made to make people talk about the show on social media.

Aegon II Targaryen: we could have for once in the got universe an antagonist major who was not born a monster but become one but the writers may have realized that we would feel too much sympathy for the boy after seeing as a teenager victims of abuse so they decided to kill that sympathy and use the most despicable way to do so. They made him a r’*apist. I remember a producer of the show saying that it would be different in hotd, if someone was r*pe the trauma would be focused on the victims, they would not make a r*pe scene for nothing. It may have been true for Alicent but not for Diana, her trauma will never be addressed and let’s be real if we ever see her again it would be for her death scene. The only thing her agression brings is the scene between Aegon and Alicent and since Alicent is really religious, if Aegon had a consensual sexu*l relationship with another maid or a prostitute the scene would have be the exact same. They wanted us to hate Aegon and the green before the start of the dance. It can also either be seen as excuse of the abuse « see, he was rotten from the start, they were right » or he was beaten up and treated like shit by his family so now he hates women and r*pe them. I’m really angry about Aegon.

Bonus (yeah it’s the kind of post with bonus): we all choose to forgot about it because it was so stupid and unnecessary but Jaime did r*pe Cersei in front of the dead body of their youngest son. But apparently both Cersei and Jaime forgot about it.

I would not make a post about Dany because I really wanted to talk about the way the antagonists of the shows were written and how it was always women who were victims but their trauma was never addressed. most of the time it was useless, or just use as a tool to make us hate a character faster so their work as writers would be easier (don’t have to write a nuanced character) but of course I think about her too, it’s a little different because her trauma was indeed addressed in the show, even if they waited s7 to use the word r*pe. But the way D&D filmed the scenes was to be remembered and once again shock the audience, it was also traumatic for Emilia.

You can write a good antagonist without making him a r*pist, in the fact those 3 characters would still have been great villains without that.

[eddtollett]

On your post about your Nettles theory, you put that Dany is more Dornish than Valyrian? I’m wondering how that’s possible when her parents were siblings & in her family tree there’s more targs than anything.

hi! that's a great question, so to come to this conclusion we have to go back even before myriah martell

DISCLAIMER: 50% of a child's genome is from each parent respectively but crossing over means that the 50% is completely random. so the conclusion that dany is more dornish that valyrian is likely considering her family line, but through some insane chance she can actually be carrying more of that valyrian dna than statistically she should. genetics are weird

i am also not here to promote blood quantum. blood quantum is stupid. but this is a fictional character with themes of blood purity in her family, and so here we will use a very simplified version of it to show how they cringefailed at that:

alright. so, let's first be very generous and assume that every targaryen pre-conquest was full blooded 100% valyrian. lets assume, too, that the velaryons are 100% valyrian. (this is even more generous)

that gets you some full valyrian targaryens down to viserys i. now, since aemma arryn is 50% targaryen, lets say the genetic material ends up roughly even, making rhaenyra 75% valyrian. she then marries daemon, who we'll call 100% valyrian, has 2 kids, again using our previous assumption, aegon iii and viserys ii should be around 87.5% valyrian. pretty high. let's keep going.

viserys ii marries larra rogare, an old valyrian family, lets call her 100% valyrian, gets aegon iv, aemon, and naerys to 93.75% valyrian. sounds like their blood purity thing is going pretty well. daeron ii ends up roughly the same, since, yknow. sibling parents.

but wait! what's this! myriah martell coming in with the steel chair! myriah being 0% valyrian knocks her and daeron ii's kids down to 46.875% valyrian. (because she contributes 50% of the genetic material, there is no way that the kids can be over 50% valyrian, even with random crossing over.) since dorne is multiethnic and we have next to no info on the martell family tree (and when we do it seems they married dornish, typically), let's just call myriah's contribution to her kids' genes 50% dornish (which includes rhoynar, first men, AND andal blood with all likelihood). (that roughly 3% remaining is valeman andal, wayyyy back from aemma arryn. these guys are so much worse than the hapsburgs)

okay, so maekar i is 46.875% valyrian and 50% dornish. already, the dornish is beating valyrian out. and what does maekar i do? he goes and marries dyanna dayne, a dornishwoman! let's call her 100% dornish as well, again recognizing that dorne is a genetic mix, but what's really important here is that it is not valyrian. 50/50 split the genes: ~23.4% valyrian and 75% dornish for mr egg aegon v. yeah.

and then, egg doesn't marry valyrian either. he marries betha blackwood, who is of first men and andal blood. so we can slash both valyrian and dornish in half for their kids, getting us to 11.7% valyrian and 37.5% dornish.

since every generation after that leading up to dany are full blood siblings, these ratios stay (hypothetically) roughly the same.

i suppose you could say that if each sibling pair contributed every little bit of their valyrian genetic material we could get dany up to 46.8%, but that's... pretty unlikely. it could get magnified, sure, but to that degree would be some wack genetic chance.

but there are your upper and lower limits for how valyrian daenerys' genome is: 11.7-46.8%

and there you have it! that's how dany can end up with more genetic material from her dornish ancestors than her valyrian ones. she probably has more first men in her genome than anything else because of dyanna and betha, with a good dose of andal, and rhoynar maybe equalling her valyrian.

the inbreeding in recent generations of targaryens has screwed them over a bit, since, without new genetic valyrian material, those 3 successive generations of non-valyrian marriages edged out that blood of old valyria. epic win

[beyondmistland]

If GRRM were using his rough draft family tree where Alysanne was Maegor's daughter what would you have wanted so see and what do you expect would be done differently? Do you think she'd still be born around the same time as in IOTL? What would the family relationships be like between her, Maegor, Visenya, Ceryse, and the rest of the family? Would Ceryse Hightower live to see her daughter become Queen Consort? I recently discovered this AU idea and I love to speculate about it.

Before I answer your ask, let me just say that this change is one of my least favorites. Personally, I can't imagine Alysanne being the daughter of anyone but Ceryse, who I also tend to think would predecease her husband. Furthermore, I think keeping her as Maegor's daughter by his first wife would have had a number of advantages when it came time to write Fire & Blood Volume 1: 1) The irony of Westeros' best (and most beloved) queen being the daughter of one of its worst kings 2) It nicely foreshadows the rivalry between House Hightower and House Velaryon during the reign of Viserys I 3) The depiction of Jaehaerys and Alysanne's love for each other in defiance of his mother and stepfather's wishes as being incredibly romantic would hit a lot harder if the girl Jaehaerys was falling for was none other than the daughter of the uncle who'd forcibly married his sister, killed one of his brothers in open battle, and tortured to death the other (Even better, more cynical Maesters could spin it as a cold-blooded seduction or power play on Jaehaerys I's part) 4) It makes Jaehaerys I's famed reconciliation with the Faith easier to swallow since cousin marriages aren't considered incest 5) It lends more weight to Alysanne's championing of her daughter (Daenerys) and granddaughter's (Rhaenys) succession rights since, as the only living child of the previous king, her claim would arguably equal, if not supersede, that of her husband (As a bonus, she would also come off less hypocritical with regards to Rhaena) 6) It averts GRRM's habit of punishing villains by having their line die out (Visenya has no descendants, Alicent Hightower has no (legitimate) descendants, Barba Bracken (probably) has no descendants, etc.) 7) It would better parallel RL history with regards to Henry VIII (who, to be fair, was much more complex than Maegor I, Aegon IV, or Robert (I) Baratheon) 8) It would make Dany's threat in Daenerys IX of AGOT a lot more meaningful (since it would be literal rather than figurative) 9) Alysanne doesn't sound very Valyrian so her mother being of First Men/Andal stock would make more sense in that regard

As for birth and death dates, I strongly believe she would have been born in the same year as OTL so 36 AC (One daughter after eleven years would still make Maegor antsy, especially with Ceryse almost midway through her thirties)

I am inclined to say that Visenya would have been quite proud of her granddaughter, especially as Alysanne grew older. I imagine her parents would have more mixed feelings on account of feudalism valuing sons more than daughters. As for Aegon I, I tend to think Alysanne would see him as this incredibily imposing (yet distant and mysterious) presence in her life. Aenys would dote on her, Alyssa Velaryon not so much. I don't think Alysanne would have spent much time in her cousins' company what with them accompanying Aenys on progresses and Maegor being known as "the Prince of Dragonstone".

Finally, I am very much of the opinion that Maegor would have named Alysanne his heir once it was obvious he wouldn't be having any more children given his disinheritance of Jaehaerys I in favor of Aerea in OTL.

Thanks for the question, anon

[goodqueenaly]

You post on Cersei's walk in ADWD made me realize GRRM is so good at pulling the rug out from readers in moments of revenge! Besides her walk, the reader wants Joffrey to be punished for his behavior for 3 books, yet his death is not a moment of victory, but asks the question 'Are we celebrating the painful murder of a 13 yo?" We want Catelyn to take revenge on the Freys badly in ASOS, yet raises the question 'What did a mentally disabled child do to deserve his throat slit besides be a Frey"?

(Revenge ask part 2) Even in the future, I think Daenerys possibly blowing up King's Landing will raise the same sort of questions. The reader wants Dany to win! To destroy Cersei and destroy Aegon and claim her throne, yet is that worth the death of thousands of innocent civilians (even if I think it will be accidental). I love that GRRM never lets the reader feel comfortable in revenge, but make the reader see that revenge is just the perpetuation of violence

Yeah, GRRM's spoken a bit about this point before, specifically in the context of Joffrey's death:

I also tried to provide a certain moment of pathos with the death [i.e. of Joffrey]. I mean, Joffrey, as monstrous as he is — and certainly he’s just as monstrous in the books as he is in the TV show, and Jack has brought some incredible acting chops to the role that somehow makes him even more loathsome than he is on the page — but Joffrey in the books is still a 13-year-old kid. And there’s kind of a moment there where he knows that he’s dying and he can’t get a breath and he’s kind of looking at Tyrion and at his mother and at the other people in the hall with just terror and appeal in his eyes—you know, “Help me mommy, I’m dying.” And in that moment, I think even Tyrion sees a 13-year-old boy dying before him. So I didn’t want it to be entirely, “Hey-ho, the witch is dead.” I wanted the impact of the death to still strike home on to perhaps more complex feelings on the part of the audience, not necessarily just cheering.

I think Joffrey is a classic 13-year-old bully. Do you know many 13-year-old kids you’d like to give absolute power to? There’s a cruelty in children, especially children of a certain age, that you see in junior high and middle school. We don’t want 13-year-old bullies to be put to death. We probably do when we’re their 13-year-old victims, but they grow up and most of them grow out of it, and sometimes people do regret their actions. But Joffrey will never get that chance, so we don’t know what he would have become. Probably nothing good, but still… [sic]

What GRRM consistently does, and I think often (though not always) very well, is take characters who are genuinely bad people and/or have done genuinely bad things and force the reader to question the extent to which the reader wants that character to be horribly punished. Joffrey's assassination at his wedding does not erase the fact that he was a sadistic, cruel, violent person who relished the idea of beating and raping Sansa; rather, it forces the reader to watch as this child is being suffocated in front of his own mother due to the political machinations of the family he just married into (specifically so that his bride can marry his tractable younger brother instead). Theon ordered or oversaw people he knew and had grown up with being raped and murdered and himself ordered the murders of two young boys to cover up his inability to put Bran and Rickon to death; however, his horrific torture as revealed in ADWD makes readers seriously consider whether that was the appropriate punishment for him. Even smaller-scale characters like Marillion or Jeyne Poole become part of this larger thematic question: it's very understandable to dislike, indeed perhaps even hate Marillion for trying to rape Sansa or Jeyne for meanly teasing Arya, but is the appropriate punishment for the former to have been beaten, blinded, and eventually driven to suicide (for a crime he didn't commit!) and for the latter to have been sold into sex slavery, whipped, and raped repeatedly? Indeed, the very existence of Lady Stoneheart as a Nemesis-like figure motivated by the pursuit of vengeance forces readers to question when, if ever, the pursuit of vengeance goes too far: when Lady Stoneheart wants to "feed the crows, like they did at the Red Wedding" with "Freys and Boltons ... as many as she likes", there will be no quarter given to anyone thought to be associated with the perpetrators of the crime, whether or not they were themselves guilty (as we see so painfully with Brienne, Podrick, and Hyle).

(For clarification, I don't class Daenerys' (I think) likely unintentional destruction of King's Landing as part of a pursuit of vengeance - Daenerys genuinely believes that as the last (known) legitimate male-line dynast of House Targaryen, the Iron Throne is rightfully hers, and if she learns or believes that our Aegon is not her brother's son but an impostor, then she has grounds for thinking of him as a usurper. Which is not to say the point above is entirely wrong - I think there will be a lot of sober reflection on the parts of both Daenerys and the reader in the aftermath of the psuedo-nuclear devastation of the capital, but more I think along the lines of Daenerys feeling a tremendous amount of guilt for killing so many innocents and wondering whether her destiny is to cause destruction.)

I'm not saying GRRM has always absolutely demonized the desire for vengeance; after all, he had his favorite mystical truthsayer Old Nan declare that "[a] man has a right to vengeance" (in specifying that the Rat Cook was not punished because he had murdered the sons of the king who had wronged him), he depicted the death of the monstrous Amory Lorch as a justified ending for his crimes against Yoren and Arya, he clearly portrayed Oberyn as a dashing and sympathetic figure whose near-defeat of the Mountain was a high point of triumph against the Lannister regime. Nor am I saying he has always handled it perfectly, either with in-universe desire for revenge (it remains to be seen what eventually happens with the plot of Doran's quest for vengeance) or characters the readers may want revenge upon (like the utterly clumsy handling of the Saera story in F&B). But I think it's fair to say that GRRM does not personally believe in a continued cycle of violence and that he likes readers to face the often uncomfortable nature of wanting characters to be punished, especially in ways that do not correspond with the bad acts of those characters.