#kishimoto can write females

[ricanvvas]

Kishimito can write female characters well, but you aren’t ready for this conversation. I don’t understand why people conclude he cannot, just because he “failed” to make Sakura interesting. He gave up on writing Sakura several times, not because he sucks at writing women, but because her starting and her purpose really had little to do with anything.

��Terrible female character writing” but we have characters like Ino and Karin and Hinata and Konan, all whom had a recognizable clan, a set personality, and a story. He also put every single one of them to use. That is what makes a character a good-written character, no?

Sakura only failed because he had no interest in wanting to keep her. Believe it or not, I think there was a shadow influence in keeping her in the show. My theory would be Kishimoto’s wife who had a breakdown when she learned Sakura didn’t end up with Naruto. So definitely out of desperation, and the increasing number of ridiculous Sakura fans, Kishimoto paired her with Sasuke, one of the main characters out of the two.

In the same way, I don’t believe Kishimoto wanted to write Boruto and there was a shadow influence for the sake of money. Because the Naruto Shippuden Manga actually had Naruto becoming a Hokage, aka the main point of the show. That’s what Kishimoto wrote. He didn’t write him becoming Hokage in Boruto, which is what happened in the anime.

Hence that is why Sarada also failed as a character. If anything, he had all the reason to make Sarada into a good character because he liked the Uchiha and was bias towards the Uchiha. Obito, Itachi, Madara, Sasuke, all of them had a very interesting story. He was obsessed with Uchiha, specifically Sasuke, but he clearly had no motivation for a second generation let alone Sarada or making her interesting.

Kishimoto knows his characters better than we do. He, obsessed with Sasuke, wrote him in a very specific way. Sasuke’s picky. The canon Sasuke would’ve never chosen Sakura. The canon Sasuke would’ve never been involved romantically anyway. And if he did plan on regrowing his clan, in what of Sasuke’s right mind would he logically choose a no clan low skill girl who has a selfish desire to keep him for herself (Sakura) over a girl with a clan and interesting abilities with a selfless desire to keep him happy (Karin)?

Stop saying that a well famous and successful mangaka cannot write characters/female characters. He can, he did. Just because it wasn’t to your liking or on your favorite stupid character doesn’t mean he’s a bad author.

And let’s be honest. What did you expect out of a child that is half Sakura?

[waffliesinyoface]

ah, there's the kishimoto i know and loathe

[cloudabserk]

the sexism in naruto is actually so crazy and all encompassing. every female character is defined by her relationship to men. the majority are boy-crazy. and it’s constantly remarked upon how weak they are when compared to their male teammates.

not only that but the main male characters actively dislike the women they’ve been paired off with. shikamaru is into temari but his infinite dream is not having to marry her. sai ends up with ino despite finding her ugly. naruto thinks hinata is weird and boring. sasuke’s dislike of sakura is infamous.

adult men’s interest in women is seen as comical and alien. (reactions to the sexy jutsu, jiraiya harassing women). almost all of the adult men are perpetual bachelors or sex perverts (and those who aren’t are stand ins for “mom and dad”).

when boys actually do like girls, it’s to show goofy immaturity and innocence (naruto’s crush on sakura that he grows out of as he reaches maturity, lee’s crush which is dropped entirely, obitos crush on rin which lasts into adulthood just to show he isn’t entirely separate from the boy he once was)

the whole ninja society likes to imagine it is a mostly gender blind world where women can thrive but this is SO obviously untrue. women are almost always healers and support. women make up less than 1/3 of the ninjas even at genin level. girls are almost all desperate to become wives and earn the attention of boys who don’t even like them!

mikoto uchiha was a jonin and presumably directly descended from the uchiha line (based on characters commenting that she/sasuke look just like izuna uchiha), but we only ever see her retired and raising her sons while her husband gets to be clan leader. (why?? if he married into the main family and she is an extremely capable ninja??)

similarly kushina uzumaki is borderline royalty and a jinchuriki, but her husband is hokage. once again the mother carries on the burden of power (for her sons to inherit) but the father has the title and status.

even the backstory of ninja enforces this. kaguya literally ate the forbidden fruit, giving the gift of chakra to all of humanity but also dooming them to fight for eternity. literally womens original sin …

anyway it’s not that all this sexist shit is in the story. it’s that kishimoto seemingly has no idea it’s there and believes the women he writes have epic girl power. how do you even do this by accident. why does every boy hate their wife. why did kaguya commit the original sin ! the girl characters want so badly to be with a boy but they don’t even care that the boy doesn’t like them back!! sakura and hinata are in loveless marriages of obligation and THEY DONT EVEN CARE??? they’re into it??? does kishimoto think men are universally forced to marry women they don’t like? does he blame women for this?WHY IS THE ORIGINAL SIN DRIVING THE BUS ALL THE SUDDEN?

[yarrayora]

i like how falin being a maiden to be saved, a reward to be coveted, isn't a point to criticize in dungeon meshi. because we have various other female characters who are written as having their own agency

we have marcille, of course, whose story can be observed since chapter 1. how she's not depicted as the "girl team member" but "part of the team". when you're writing a protagonist group where there's only one female character among the male cast, you can always feel this sense of alienation in the writing, like she doesn't belong in the group as the story focuses on the rest of the boys. the way masashi kishimoto writes team 7 is a major example

but marcille is still allowed to be a "typical girl" who doesn't want to eat gross things and enjoy feminine clothing without forgetting the fact that she's a multifaceted person. she's a researcher who isn't afraid to get dirty when it's something relevant to magic and her goal, even though she's also grossed out at the idea of feces being used as fertilizer for crops

and when falin comes back as a monster who can't speak, it's still not a point to criticize. oftentimes stories involving female characters losing their speech (or, well, becoming disabled in some way) is meant to make her vulnerable, a fragile 'something' to be protected. but this is not an argument about how chimera falin is super strong, because that's a shallow way of thinking that ignores the fact that being a Girlboss doesn't ensure your female character is written as a fully realized person. this is about the fact that almost right after that Izutsumi joins Laios' party.

She joins late in the game, so it'll be easy for her to only be tacked on as an afterthought. A notable example would be Okumura Haru from Persona 5, where her character gets overshadowed a lot by the other party members' more colorful personalities, as if the writer wasn't sure how to integrate her into the already developed dynamic.

there's also how she's written as a sweet and shy girl yet the way her school uniform is designed betrays that image. it's heavily customized even compared to the trendy girl like ann which means it's impossible for her outfit to not go against school regulation. not something an obedient girl would have done. which makes me wonder if they couldn't decide on her writing until last minute.

but Izutsumi is different. her involvement and her own personal story arc eventually intertwines to the overarching plot. she hates having her options limited. she hates having responsibilities to uphold. she hates eating veggies! she hates that people expects her to do things their way! she wants freedom to do whatever she wants!

but in the end she learns that to have the freedom to choose, she has to uphold her responsibilities. starting from the simple things like taking care of her health by eating balanced meals, not just the ones she enjoy. she has to do work to get enough money for her food and travels. and she has to learn how society works so she can live independently. she has to learn which desire she has to prioritize that she can balance out with her responsibility as a living being.

her own self-realization culminates into her giving advice to laios that leads to him steeling his resolves to become king.

so you have Falin, who gets turned into a monster that cant communicate her desire and needs while under the mad sorcerer's control, and in exchange you get Izutsumi, the 'beastman' who knows exactly what she wants and throws a tantrum about it without shame, not understanding that what you want isn't always what you need. i think it's a really cool parallel!

this is a prime example of how tropes that get associated with misogynistic writing can be used as a proper tool that serves a narrative when you have more than multiple female characters having their own character arcs

in fact, you can apply this to pretty much every other things. when you're writing gay characters, having only one of them and they act camp can make people raise an eyebrow at whether this is meant to be a caricature of gay people or not. having two of them and one acts camp and one acts normie can be read as a bias against gay people expressing themselves. writing multiple gay characters, all with different personalities and desires will avoid accidental stereotyping.

even the minor female characters, be it the canaries or namari, help show that the way the narrative treats Falin isn't born from thinking that women are an alien breed compared to men. that her lack of agency means something for the themes involved.

[guidaozongshi]

I know Kishimoto probably wrote sns gay on accident but sometimes I see things and it look on purpose like double suicide. No way he didn't know what it meant.

I strongly disagree with the idea that Kishimoto unintentionally wrote Naruto and Sasuke's relationship with homoerotic and romantic elements.

While I am in disagreement with many of Kishimoto's writing choices, claiming that he or even the editors working at Jump don't understand what he is writing about is just condescending.

Firstly, let's make one thing clear: no Shonen mangaka since the 1990s has ever unintentionally put homoerotic subtext in their work.

Statements like :

" Shonen mangakas accidentally make their male characters gay because they can't develop their female characters "

Is simply not true.

Shonen Jump deliberately allows homoerotic subtext in their works because it is profitable; it attracts a considerable female audience, i.e., fujoshi, to be interested in their series. This is not a recent phenomenon but something that can be traced back to the 1980s with the advent of series like Gundam, which at that time had a primarily female audience due to the intense personal relationships between the cast.

Take this snippet from an interview with Yoshiyuki Tomino, the creator of Gundam

What I want modern day Gundam fans to understand is that Gundam wasn't nurtured by the PlaModel enthusiasts. It was young women who first came to the after recording studio, and Gundam is a work that began with their support. And it was a work that had no connection to the popularity of Gundam PlaModels. So I think the most important thing is creating a work that will attract those kind of girls to it again. I don't think movies as an entertainment industry can succeed without touching on that kind of fundamental portion.

The girls he is referring to are those people who are invested in the emotionally charged male-male relationships of the series.

A lot of people mistakenly believe that Weekly Shonen Jump solely targets boys, which is understandable given its name. However, the strategy of WSJ has continuously evolved alongside its readership, and for many of its series, more than half of the audience is female. In fact, many of its titles, such as Prince of Tennis, Kuroko no Basuke, Haikyuu, etc, have a primary female audience, you can guess why. The homoeroticism and shoujo-esque elements are deliberately added.

To quote a blog that does scholarly work on manga

I also want to make it clear i think any analysis of shonen manga especially Jump manga being soooo friendly to fujoshi and m/m shipping due to misogyny in writing falls flat when you think the authors and editors are thick headed and have no idea how the readers could possibly get that kind of interpretation from their works when Jump has been a STAPLE of the comiket yaoi corner ever since the mid-80’s and their whole shtick is being hyper aware of reader opinion. they know and have always known how female readers read into the works and authors who enter jump only get more and more savvy about how to feed into it. You can’t see the accidental kiss gag and trick yourself into thinking Kishimoto didn’t know what he was doing with that

Now that we have made it clear that whatever written was deliberate, let's discuss whether Kishimoto wanted to portray Sasuke and Naruto in a romantic relationship. This is something I cannot give definitive answers on.. as there are certainly mixed messages

Once again to quote the same blog

When talking about fujobaiting boys manga from now on i will have to put an asterisk on Naruto bc yes i know Kishimoto knows what he’s doing but this really isn’t normal behavior

-

The way that he does everything from being self aware by having the boys get called a slur ( homophobic ) for trying to save Sasuke to the lol wouldn’t it be gross and funny if Kakashi and Gai were gay for each other moments it all contrasted by Sasuke and Naruto playing out a fantasy novel marketed to girls where Sasuke (love interest) turns to the dark side and Naruto (the protagonist) misses him and yearns to have their time together back and is conflicted about the idea of having to fight him one day and the person who comforts him the most during this is Sakura (secondary love interest who gets the short end of the stick) like they can try to repeat the line that they’re like brothers but Naruto doesn’t have siblings like 🤨 how is he sure 🤨🤨 simultaneously to all this Gai and Kakashi are called gross old men for giving each other piggyback rides

But you are right. Kishimoto invokes a lot of romantic tropes that are impossible to ignore altogether or even dismiss as a simple fujobait, and concludes that he never intended to portray Naruto-Sasuke in a romantic light in the text. Libraries worth of content has been written about their relationship so I wouldn't be saying anything new that hasn't been said before.

As you mentioned, the prospect of Shinjū (心中), meaning "double suicide" is invoked between Naruto and Sasuke. At a point in their relationship, Sasuke stands against Konoha. He asks for an ultimatum from Naruto whether he would kill Sasuke to save Konoha or be killed by him, and Naruto says he wants neither. But they will inevitably have to face off against each other because of their obligations as a Uchiha annihilated by Konoha and a Jinchuuriki bound to Konoha. It's also inevitable that when they both clash, they will have died together since they are both equally matched in power. Naruto is ready to face Sasuke's hatred against Konoha and to die along with him. Naruto then says that if the above happens, in the next life they would be able to meet each other without their respective obligations.

This is an obvious romantic trope, especially how straightforward it's played in Naruto that doesn't allow for any other interpretation.

In Japanese theater and literary tradition, double suicides are the simultaneous suicides of two lovers whose personal feelings (人情, ninjō) or love for one another are at odds with giri, social conventions or familial obligations.

Lovers committing double suicide believed that they would be united again in heaven, a view supported by feudal teaching in Edo period Japan, which taught that the bond between two lovers is continued into the next world.

Dying together, because of their respective obligations, despite their feelings for each other, with the hope of being able to unite again in the next life. Is this literally not Naruto and Sasuke?

When one talks of the relationship between Naruto and Sasuke, the Land of Waves arc is considered one of the most pivotal points in the trajectory of their story. Their relationship is frequently made analogous to that of Haku and Zabuza.

And one of the most controversial points I will make is that Kishimoto added blatant romantic intent in Haku and Zabuza's relationship, portraying them as lovers, to make their relationship resemble wakashūdō.

In the warrior (samurai) class it was customary for a boy in the wakashū age category to undergo training in the martial arts by apprenticing to a more experienced adult man. The relationship was based on the model of a typically older nenja, paired with a typically younger chigo. The man was permitted, if the boy agreed, to take the boy as his lover until he came of age; this relationship, often formalized in a "brotherhood contract", was expected to be exclusive, with both partners swearing to take no other (male) lovers.

Wakashū were prominently featured in Edo-period woodcuts, where they are often distinguishable from the female beauties in the same pictures only by a sword or the shaved spot on the crown of their head. In erotic prints ( shunga ), they are often depicted as more feminine than their female partners.

You can't possibly believe that Kishimoto, who is known to imbue Japanese historical and mythological motifs throughout the series, does this by accident.

Why would Kishimoto make Naruto and Sasuke's relationship be compared to that of Haku and Zabuza, two people with heavy romantic implications? It also doesn't just stop at Land of Waves. Even the ending scene of the series, where Naruto and Sasuke lie together, is made to be a direct parallel to the final moments between Haku and Zabuza.

I am not condoning 'shipping' Zabuza and Haku at all, and I think people have the right to be repulsed by a romantic reading of their relationship, but this is a very obvious observation.

Even to an average viewer without any shipping intentions, Zabuza and Haku's relationship has always been weird and it has spawned countless discussions speculating the nature of it

Kishimoto could have easily used a less controversial and more recognisable platonic relationship as the one that onsets the trajectory of Sasuke and Naruto's relationship, but he didn't.

Why?

Decide for yourself.

[victimsofyaoipoll]

Finals

Propaganda Under Cut

Sakura Haruno

Her husband is gay and her author doesn't know how to write women. So many people say she's the worst but she. DESERVES. BETTER!!! Save her from this franchise.

My baby girl my bestie my best friend. She committed the crime of um being written by kishimoto who both doesn’t know how to write women and somehow writes men in the gayest way possible specifically naruto and sasuke. Like the thing is naruto and sasuke ARE gay and also she gets so much hate for the crime of kishimoto writing her one dimensionally in love with sasuke. I know her personally she is a butch lesbian to me just trust me she’s in love with Ino and has a lesbian thing going on with Karin okay just trust me. My everything. She needs to divorce the loveless lavender marriage she’s in 

What is there to say, even? The OG Threat to my 90s anime brain, the only woman I've ever hated with such a passion she made me turn away from the color pink. I used to write fics with my friend where she got left behind on purpose so our OCs could join the Naruto and Sasuke team instead. I loathed this bitch until I was 16 and realized the author simply couldnt write women and decided it was time to make peace with Sakura. It is not her fault she's vaguely written and obsessive over Sasuke. She deserves better. Sasuke and Naruto still should be together and Sakura shouldnt be with Sasuke but I no longer believe this because I hate Sakura, it is because I love her. She deserves a spouse who will actually put in the time to treat her like the hero she is.

Misa Amane

she gets treated in-canon the way fandoms treat female characters that Threaten an m/m ship. it's like, "oh why don't you go sit in the corner and be pretty, misa, while the Men have intelligent conversation and pretend they aren't ten seconds from fucking each other, doesn't that sound nice?" it's infuriating. and MAYBE it's better now but i remember her getting treated the same way in fanfiction too, like we all need to do just as badly by our female secondary characters as fucking tsugumi ohba, but with the added insult of making her be alternately oblivious of the relationship between light and L or actively trying to sabotage it—incompetently, of course, because god forbid misa be allowed dignity or moments of cleverness.

she's one of the first characters I think of when I consider old school fandom misogyny. The annoying bitch and clingy crazy gf allegations were AFTER HER ASS. She's also a lot more intelligent than people gave her credit for, but most seem inclined to take the Very Biased word of our unreliable, narcissistic narrator and his homoerotic arch nemesis and claim that just because she's bubbly and into romance that she's also a complete moron. Which is blatantly untrue. Everyone was afraid of Misa girlbossing too hard. Killing people and devoting yourself to the deranged twink of your dreams even though you know he'll never love you back??? Having a hardcore goth aesthetic and being so Hot even literal Death Gods are into you?? God forbid women do ANYTHING!

Not only is she the victim of yaoi culture, she is the victim of early 2000s misogyny by an author that wanted to introduce a girl character because he knew his male rivals were getting too homoerotic. She is a goth bimbo icon who portrays what I think is one of the few callouts for stan culture and what parasocial relationships can do to both the stan and the idol. The fact that she is a toxic fan of Kira and also hot, funny, sociable is tragic in its own way, which I think the author did try to touch on but was too misogynistic too really get through. Of course, she was reduced to villain status by the fandom and anime alike because she got in the way of the supposed romance in their psychological horror anime

[martialartslover7]

Why I think Kishimoto isn't sexist, but just VERY tonedeaf and an idiot

Boy, will I have some venting to do today. I mean, at this point, it's not a secret, that Kishimoto has consistently stated that "he can't write women", to save his life. And to this day, for as long as I was a fan of the series, I am going to be absolutely real: This statement is so full of shit. Why? Simple. And allow me to express it in very big capital letters, so that even the last giant mental invalid can understand:

WOMEN ARE HUMAN-BEINGS WITH BREASTS AND A V BETWEEN THEIR LEGS. WHAT TYPE OF "NUANCES" IS THIS GUY TALKING ABOUT? THERE IS NOTHING "COMPLICATED" ABOUT THEM. WHAT NONSENSE IS THIS?

Like, this entire statement is bullshit for a completely reason altogether: Why even reduce his own point to the fact that the shinobi just so happen to be female? This just sounds like excuses on top of excuses, especially considering the competition like One Piece and Bleach, who all have badass, memorable and sometimes, quite well-written characters, that just so happen to be female.

Let's count up a few IPs that I am aware of, written or directed by males, that has some of the most badass, and most memorable females in all of media:

One Piece

Bleach

Soul Eater

Kill la Kill

Jujutsu Kaisen

Code Geass

Persona

Tekken

Street Fighter

SoulCalibur

Fire Emblem (not all of them, some of them, from what I have seen, can be insane jokes)

And so on, and so forth, the list goes on. And you know what all these IPs have in common, that make them stand out, compared to what Naruto does to its females?

THE FEMALES AREN'T GETTING BOGGED DOWN BY IRRITATING, REDUNDANT AND DOWNRIGHT OFFENSIVE TROPES, THAT FLAT-OUT RUIN THEIR POTENTIAL AND APPEAL AS STANDALONE CHARACTERS!

Like, allow me to list up all the tropes, that Kishimoto made use of, while writing the manga, or being involved in the process of writing / directing the anime, along with the movies.

1. Making the women overtly dependant on the male characters

This one, is not as egregious, but it's a good kickstarter. In the context of the world these characters operate in, to me, it does make sense to show that, like in the Edo period of Japan, women were always seen as second-class citizens, always needing to be tied to men somehow, otherwise they are "worthless". Considering the corrupt, militarized system that most of the girls work in, mostly operated by wrinkly, old farts, who enjoy playing god too much, it does remain understandable to me, that they would be hesistant to be 100% committed to the job, and just ask for normal lives...

...BUT...

...it does leave you asking: Why did they choose to be ninjas in the first place, then? To get smitten with the boys (not counting Hinata, by the way, because she was literally forced into this role)? Just applying as literal child soldiers in a war, that they didn't even start to begin with? And yes, I get it, kunoichis excel in areas that male shinobi struggle with, like silent reconnaisance, charming other men, or sometimes women, to tickle information out of them, being healers, but here is the thing: As the Naruto progressed as a story, this pattern kept repeating, every time a female character got introduced, it would fall back on the following checklist:

Is this woman a healer?

Is she obsessed with looking for a boyfriend / a husband?

Is she lacking in combat-based strength, to the point where she needs protection from either of the male characters?

Because, except for the healer bit, which is more of a specialized field, I just brought it up, because I felt it to be awfully noticeable how often the girls requested to be healers, as if they have to fit into such a mold, or they aren't capable as shinobi, the other two questions get repeatedly answered, for pretty much 98% of all female characters, especially by the end of Shippuden.

And don't get me wrong: This is NOT a negative, per se, that they desire a boyfriend, or someone to spend the rest of their days with, this is not what I am complaining about. In fact, a good chunk of ships in the series are hella cute, and I don't want them to go away. Because to an extent, the romance aspect feels genuine, especially between Naruto and Hinata, or Sasuke and Sakura (yeah, fight me on that, I will defend these two as a ship, until I die), or hell, especially Shikamaru and Temari, which are the GOLD standard, of what a good ship needs.

What I am complaining about though, is that, the series kind of uses this romance aspect as a shield, or excuse, to undermine the female characters, in the long run. Think about it, when was the last time when Sakura, in spite of all the grueling training she had to suffer through to become this strong in the first place, not wanting to be a hindrance to anyone, legitimately kicked ass, after killing Sasori? Not counting the war arc, because this arc is frankly, an inexcuseable mess, and Kishimoto should be ashamed of himself for making it suck this hard for how many asspulls this arc had. Nope, the moment Naruto goes berserk, and Sasuke just... appears... she is reduced to a whimpering mess, who can't stand on her own two feet, and has to be saved by someone. And this happens. ALL. THE. TIME. That's all that happens with her, sure, she heals countless ninjas during the war, but again, healing isn't the only specialty she got:

SHE IS A SHINOBI! SHINOBIS FIGHT! THEY DON'T JUST STAND AROUND LIKE IDIOTS, AND EXPOSING THEMSELVES TO ENEMY FIRE! GET! ON! WITH IT!

I swear, man, this just frustrates me beyond any reason, and the worst part, even someone as awesome as Hinata, who kicked so much ass in Part 1 (especially the filler arcs, don't get smart with me, I watched the anime, suck a small one on that), who had a whole, potential story arc hinted at with Neji, and the issues regarding their entire clan, was reduced to a simple Naruto #1 fangirl for the entire duration of Shippuden, not even the filler could salvage her in any way, and for someone like me, who relates to Hinata on a spiritual level, I find this just so damned pathetic. And whenever I watch The Last, all I could think about was this one coherent thought: You. Had. ONE JOB. Kishimoto. And you failed her. As a standalone character. Causing the entire movie to come off as if you were just shoehorning everything together, as if we only liked Hinata, because of the NaruHina ship. Well, newsflash, it couldn't be further from the truth. So, screw you, and the entire The Last movie.

Plus, I am sure I am speaking on everyone's behalf here: Anko Mitarashi and Tenten were done the MOST dirty by Kishimoto. Nuff' said.

On that note, that brings me to my next point:

2. The angry Karen housewife stereotype

I swear, this meme right here...

And Kushina's entire existence truly proves my point that, Kishimoto is really not doing himself any favors, whenever he says "I don't know how to write women". Oh, but then THIS is your answer? Is this how you see them all, the very second they get married and have kids?

So let me get this straight, the moment a woman, in the Naruto universe, gets married, has kids, and takes care of them, they become:

Aggressive, to the point of physically assaulting their own kids (Kushina definitely would have done so, let's not lie to ourselves, I love her, but this behavior of hers, combined with Sakura's general attitude towards Naruto, would have definitely made him suicidal after a while, if it weren't for the fact, he accepts it in his mom's case, because she doesn't know any better, considering her childhood)

Unpleasant to be around for their husbands (as if, we get guilt-tripped into thinking, the wives are the ones being selfish, wanting their lovers to be home with them, which, by the way, is a serious piece of shit way of thinking, because, they are married for a REASON, and not to stay apart all the time, THEY ARE FAMILY, at least, from how it gets painted as, in Boruto, from what I have seen so far)

Becoming total sociopaths, as if their genuine worries and concerns get painted as something so abnormal and "creepy"

...and this is how you see them all? THIS is your answer? Again, I know, we have ZERO evidence to prove that Kishimoto himself, is sexist in real life, it would be irresponsible of me to put that out there, because I just don't know the guy. I am just saying that, with how the housewives were all written thus far, and how, from Naruto's POV, he began having a fear of angry moms, calling them "scary", and how the females got seriously underrepresented in the course of the story...

...IT DOESN'T DO HIM ANY FAVORS.

I can't even believe I have to say this, because, newsflash, Kishimoto, and I will say it in caps: NOT ALL MOMS IN THE WORLD, ACT LIKE THIS!

They can get mad with us, they are fully in the right to whenever we do something stupid, no matter how old we get, because they will always view us as their babies that they cradled in their arms. But the problem here is: In Boruto, it gets painted as if the moms are the ones in the wrong here, just for being a tiny bit more concerned than others, because again, the world that they live in, is dangerous. And leaving the Otsu*redacted* aside, I can fully sympathize with them, so seeing someone like Boruto himself taking so many liberties being a spoiled, rotten brat, who never suffers serious repurcussions for his behavior (I know, he lost his headband for cheating, but for someone like him, who wished literal DEATH on his own father, just for him not being around enough, needed a way harsher punishment, you just don't say that your parents, dude, this doesn't take a genius to understand, especially since this is Naruto and Hinata we are talking about her), once again, it undermines the females, as if the kids ALWAYS "know better", and they "just suck, because moms are scary". Fuck off. Seriously. This is just disrespectful. No excuses. It shouldn't be written this way. Even more so, because the POV of the mothers gets never tackled, making this seem one-sided.

3. A few romances fall back on tropes, that disrespect not only the girls, but also the guys

OK, I will probably get some flack for saying this, but, regardless of the explainations in one of the Retsuden mangas, the InoSai ship, is perfectly encapsulating to me, how the romance in Naruto isn't without its flaws, and it mostly stems from how some of the characters just never get the privilege of gaining their own story sections about their own individual struggles as standalone characters.

I AM LOOKING RIGHT AT YOU, CHOJI AND KARUI! THEIR ROMANCE IS SO OUT OF LEFT FIELD, IT'S NOT EVEN WORTH JOKING ABOUT, EXCEPT, IT'S LITERALLY A JOKE, DUE TO THEIR NAMES BEING POLAR OPPOSITES TO ONE ANOTHER. HA. HA. HA.

Personally, to me, Sai is not that interesting of a character to me, I was never able to connect with him in any way, despite the importance he had in the story, alluding to the ROOT Anbu under Danzo's leadership.

But his "romance" with Ino, was seriously pushing it to me, not only because, it just regresses Ino's entire character, pushing her back into this mold that she is only interested in brooding, mentally ill edgelords like Sasuke, which paints her a shallow person, but it just paints Sai himself, as a stand-in for Sasuke, too, which undermines his own character, unintentionally. There are so many things wrong with their overall dynamic, I can't even put it properly into words.

And don't think, InoSai are the only exception to this rule. As much as it pains me to say this, NaruHina and SasuSaku are also affected by this, not as severe, but it's still pretty noticeable.

NaruHina

The fact that, with NaruHina, we needed an entire freaking movie, which, frankly, should have never happened, had they done a better job at utilizing Hinata as her own character, with Naruto present to help her out with her clan, and it all hinged on Naruto himself regressing as a character too, needing to be put in a fucking Genjutsu, just to see how he "truly felt" about Hinata... I am sorry, what is this? I mean, from a writing standpoint, this is just straight-up BAD. It's clichéd, it's painting Hinata as a damsel in distress, needing to be saved by Naruto, and Naruto himself being pardoned with "he is just dense", and overall, you can really tell, this is all just hamfisted into a single movie, because they needed to desperately convince us: Look, this is a thing. They are together now. Now play the emotional music, because that's all it needs.

Listen, I know Naruto never had a clear grasp on his own emotions, but the overall pay-off, to me, is just not there, no matter how hard I try. It just feels hollow, I don't feel happy with this. Because, for this to ship to work, they had to go through all these extra lengths to regress them both first, as individual characters, just so they can shut the lid on the whole thing. Made even worse by how this confession of Hinata during the Pain Invasion arc, was never brought up again to Naruto, until the freaking movie, and I still don't understand why. I know he didn't "ignore" her, but why does he fail to recognize Hinata's love confession, but the moment Sakura drops by to confess to him, too, he immediately calls it BS? Please. Make it make sense.

SasuSaku

Listen, nothing will stop me from loving these two as one, they deserve the peace amongst themselves, but the problem is, like InoSai, it falls back on the trope of, the girl bearing this mindset of "I can fix him", and while Sakura certainly did succeed... hear me out:

This is a purely universal thing now, this isn't just applying to SasuSaku. Otherwise, both ships have a solid foundation, ruined by shit writing. Nothing else to say.

That moment of Ino crying for Sasuke, really made me realize: Kishimoto really is clueless, not just about women, but men, too.

Because, again, for how often some of the girls bore this mindset of "I need me some brooding hunk of meat", essentially, desiring a man that knowingly treats them like crap, just so they can bear the delusion of "I can fix him", while downplaying and belittling the "uncool" guys like Choji, Rock Lee, or hell, even Naruto or Kiba, guys who, for the most part, have a solid grasp on their moral compass and their self-worth, denouncing their advances with "ew, no", is honestly disgusting to me. Like, come on, man, they aren't as cool as the edgelord teammates, but why downplay them so hard in the presence of the girls? Don't they deserve love too? Why belittle them for their eccentricities, it not only paints the girls in a bad light, but it straight up mocks the male "goofball" teammates for being the way they are. In short: NO ONE IS THE WINNER HERE.

Phew, OK, I hope, I made my point, loud and clear now. Because these points have been bothering me for a VERY long time now, and look, correct me if I am wrong. I am never 100% foolproof, so if I left out anything, feel free to correct me.

I needed to vent about this, because I felt so genuinely pissed off for how underpowered and underepresented the girls are, and how unkind and unforgiving the writing was to them, overall.

Peace.

[badgalsasuke]

het!shippers: Kishimoto made Naruto and Sasuke accidentally gay because he doesn't know how to write straight relationships with well written female characters!

Kishimoto: makes two one shots completely centered around the romance of two straight couples with two compelling female characters.

Idk, maybe Kishimoto just didn't give a shit about your boring generic Naruto het!ship because he very much can write straight romance, have you given that possibility a thought?

[maoam]

This post has to be about me lol since op has me blocked. Though it could be about someone else, or many people. But there's always someone who is the last straw. They wanted us to see the discourse post yet blocked...

I guess I am an older fan, spiteful and entitled... but the thing, sn is still popular, the ooc version of it that is. In some ways it's worse than before, because they go out of their way to argue it's in character using shit like weird fillers or merchandise which are not CANON. They are not an oppressed minority by any means, just because me or maybe someone else writes posts criticising their portrayal. SN fics still portray Naruto as a doormat (tbf, it's hard to find ic fanfics in general) and Sasuke as weirdly sexually aggressive.

SN is popular "there aren't a lot of us anymore" is not true at all. The most popular sn blogs still make Sasuke daddy jokes, talk about Sasuke's dick size endlessly (and clearly think whoever has the bigger dick HAS to top), and compare Naruto to bimbo women like Ariana Grande and so on, and use Naruto as a fandom bicycle claiming everyone wants access to his butthole, while Sasuke of course cannot be shipped with anyone else (despite the fact both of them are only obsessed with each other). People even use someone like Megan Thee Stallion to argue Naruto has to be bottom lol. Even someone I know who is new to the fandom, admitted that SN portrayals are rarely ever in character, even if she finds many NS portrayals who are ooc, there are many times more SN ones that are like that.

Also I use Kishimoto's manga to argue about Naruto and Sasuke's characters, not 'headcanons'. I have gotten anons tell me they like my blog specifically because I focus on canon, don't mischaracterize either of them, instead of focusing on whose dick goes where all the time. :)

However, I do think there's more variety nowadays! But the ooc:ness is much more aggressively pushed at the same time. But what I heard from other people the person who made this post also likes Naruko and Naruto in a maid dress acting all girly and demure mostly and follows all the artists who mischaracterize them so I doubt they are the most unbiased person themselves when it comes to the question if sn fandom has changed or not. And you can just admit you only like sn, there's no need to pretend you used to like ns... and you aren't the person to yell at other people for their "ooc headcanons". I'm sorry to tell you but the Naruto in Kishi's head is not the type to dress up in frilly stuff and acting all girly girly. Also an actual female Naruto would be a tomboy.

[ilikekidsshows]

It's never been not funny to me when someone said Marinette is a good representation of strong independent woman and also a great female leader because for all Masashi Kishimoto claim about how bad he was at writing female character, Sakura, the most hated character by the fandom, is actually much more well written than Marinette, ever. Which make me wonder if miraculous is Marinette stan's first ever cartoon they ever watch or the show has perfectly gaslight them. 🤷

---

From what I've witnessed, it's kind of both and then something else, actually. A lot of people who are really passionate about Miraculous got here before the original retool. A lot of them were kids back then and Miraculous was their first big fandom instead of just a show they watched. This is also why claims about Miraculous' uniqueness are so common in these circles that still try to hype the show up. They hadn't really been in fandoms before Miraculous and they haven't gotten similarly invested in many other shows since. In addition to this, Miraculous' episodes are often contradictory, claiming at least two things about what's going on, and audiences could just pick the narrative they were more invested in. This earned the show a lot of good faith for delivering satisfying stories that carried it even as the quality started to deteriorate.

The unpredictable release schedule also makes following the show's continuity a nightmare even as it works great at masking the poor quality of that continuity. In other words, it's very easy for fans to come up with their own version of what goes on in the episodes. In addition, the fandom's so old and big by now that you have tons of varied Miraculous content if the canon isn't to your tastes. We can't ignore that fandoms for so many things also have a lot of people who haven't experienced the original story and only got into the fandom through a fan comic or something similar. Like, the amount of “at least we still have fanfics” comments under my posts tearing the Miraculous canon to shreds just proves that, to some people, the canon doesn't matter.

There's also the sunk cost fallacy. Like, we’ve spent years onto this show and fandom, for some it's been a full decade. It's hard to let go of that level of investment. In fact, I will freely admit I still haven't fully let go, but any investment has turned into resentment. I wanna see how bad this show can get before people finally have had enough, if there's such an insistent part of the fandom that they'll hang onto this garbage until the bitter end and turn around to claim Miraculous deserves a spot among the greats like Avatar and Gravity Falls. I actually tried watching S6 episodes after skipping seasons 4 and 5, and I just couldn't enjoy them. It was somehow more of the same bland nonsense, and Marinette is the least enjoyable part of any episode, because she still isn't allowed to do anything interesting, instead managing to find some way of annoying me in every single episode without even doing anything cool to make up for it.

[nohara-rin-dot-mp3]

"Always Watching": an Analysis of Obito's Afterlife as Horror

In chapter 687 of the Naruto manga, Uchiha Obito dies. Chapters 687 and 688 contain a scene wherein he meets with his old friend (and love interest) Nohara Rin in the afterlife.

This is a touching scene, right? One would think so. The problem is that for some reason it's actually really fucking scary. In this analysis, I'm going to explain why the moment is framed in such an unsettling matter, and what that means in terms of the story.

First off, I'd like to establish a disconnect from the intent of the scene. Naruto, as a narrative, often tells the reader things that contradict the events shown, both in terms of tone and action. This scene is a contradiction on both accounts, as is common when Nohara Rin is the focus of any scrutiny. This dissonance results from the fact that although Rin is said to be kind, intellectual, and devoted, we see very little evidence for this being the case, and in some chapters, evidence to the contrary. This contrast is a key tool in reading this scene as horror.

This contrast is not a function of good writing- rather, it is a result of Kishimoto's failure to fully flesh out his female characters. I am aware that this scene was not written with the intent of being horror- I am simply arguing that it can be read that way, anyways.

I would also like to acknowledge the fact that a reading of this scene wherein Obito is not talking to the real Rin is a perfectly viable take in the context of this scene as horror. It can even amplify it in some cases- however, whether or not the real Rin is guiding Obito to the afterlife is not the topic I intend to tackle today.

Finally, before we get into a close reading of this scene, I would like to define horror, and discuss why a reading of this scene as horror can be meaningful. I will be defining horror as "storytelling that invokes fear or otherwise uncomfortable emotions through the employment of distressing imagery or engagement with upsetting subject matter." I intend to prove that this scene can be read as horror by emphasizing the "distressing imagery" and "upsetting subject matter" present in it, primarily through contrast.

Horror is important because it challenges our notions of normality and appropriateness. By reading this scene as horror, we are forced to question the morality of Obito's actions, the accuracy of Obito's views of Rin, the necessity of Obito's sacrifice, and many other aspects of the Naruto narrative.

To begin with: Obito takes Kaguya's All-Killing Ash Bone attack to save the lives of Team 7 We are treated to a short flashback of Rin encouraging Obito to become hokage and vowing to stay by his side as he does so. We then transition back to the present, where Obito tells Naruto to become hokage. He then dies- Kaguya and Zestu mock him, Naruto defends him, and Obito wakes up in the afterlife.

The first panel of the sequence is the extreme close-up on Obito's normal eye- this serves to establish the fact that he does not have his sharingan here. He is powerless, and therefore vulnerable. The shock and sudden scene transition also serves as a jolt to readers, destabilizing them as they enter the scene. We also see the grey border that surrounds the scene begin- this grey border helps to establish the surreality of the scene. In the Naruto manga, pages taking place in the present are surrounded by white and flashbacks are surrounded by black. By shading the area around the panels light grey, an in-between area is established. The liminal quality to this scene further unsettles the reader and contributes to a horror reading.

Next, the scene goes from incredibly close to distant. Contrast is one of the most important pieces of imagery this scene uses to unsettle the reader. We see this contrast again in the next panel, as Rin and Obito take turns facing the camera. The scene also plays on Obito's vulnerability to discomfit the reader. Obito has been thrust back into his childhood body. He is much weaker than he has been in a long time. Rin is not sitting neutrally- she is leaning into Obito's personal space, pressing in and creating an oppressive atmosphere.

The dialogue in this scene also serves to unsettle the reader. Obito pauses unnaturally twice in three panels, and Rin's dialogue is chilling. The first thing she says to him is "I've been waiting." Taken on it's own, it's far from comforting, or even romantic. The ominous tone of the dialogue contrasted with Rin's tranquil smile creates horror.

The expressions in these panels work to communicate Obito's (justified) distress over his actions. Rin's expression, in contrast, is oddly unaffected. The lack of reaction to any of the people Obito hurt contrasts with the picture of a kind girl that Obito and Kakashi's memories have presented us with thusfar. It creates horror, and challenges both Rin and the position of hokage as ideals.

Rin's expression and the cadence with which she delivers her judgement are unsettling. The unnatural pause in the middle of her dialogue emphasizes the horror of such a statement- "I've been... watching you all along." Directly following her declaration of Obito's innocence, this throws the lens of morality the narrative of Naruto has been asking us to use into question. It also. Hold on a second can I stop essay talking for a little bit ahem. It's just fucking creepy? Like that's not a normal thing to say why'd she say that. Why's she pause in the middle of it. It's so threatening for no reason??? It's the panel that inspired this piece because when I was reading this chapter for this first time I had to go back and check to make sure I was getting the intention of it right because this reads like fucked up nightmare fuel scene!!! Forget wrangling something into a shape it's not meant to be in you have to squint to see this scene in a non-horror light!!!! Why. Literally why. Okay anyways ahem Paired alongside Obito's distress and Rin's clear invasion of his personal space, this is easy to read as horror.

Once again, we are shown an extreme close-up of Obito's eyes, emphasizing his distress. We also focus on Rin's grip on Obito- notice how it's not reciprocated. The close view of her hold on his hand suffocates the reader, signalling that something is wrong.

Here we see more contrast to build uneasiness- the difference between Obito's anguish and Rin's unflinching smile casts doubt on the sincerity of Rin's smile, and therefore on the basis of her character.

Once again, the framing of this scene pulls attention towards Rin's grip on Obito. We also see juxtaposition between close-ups and distant framing of panels. The movement of our view creates a sense of unease, not allowing us to sit comfortably with any perspective. We also see Rin shift from a smile to concern for the first time- and it's only because Obito is trying to resist (and failing) to resist her grip.

Finally, the contrast is reversed. Now we have Obito smiling and Rin not. Rin is still holding Obito, but the tension between them isn't as great. They are both on their feet, lessening the power imbalance between them.

Finally, with Obito's denial of Rin, we see something beyond a plastic smile or concern. She releases his hand, and seemingly becoming more genuine, the undertones of horror begin to fade.

With the direct mention of Kakashi, things clear up even more. Obito's dialogue is more natural, and although we still have the framework of distant/close up perspective, it's less extreme. Rin and Obito are on even terms- or, so it seems. The horror in the earlier scenes came from the fact that Rin was leading the conversation, and was behaving in ways that felt wrong. Now that Obito is leading, Rin doesn't have the opportunity to exorcise agency and therefore contradict the characterization she supposed to have. Although the horror is fading, it has not been resolved. It is merely being covered up.

I'll stray into another framework I like to use to analyze Rin scenes, here- I've suggested in the past that the sincerity of Rin's character at any given moment can be read in a symbolic manner based on her eyes. Closed eyes represent deceit- in these panels, Rin conforms exactly to Obito's expectations of her, smiling with her eyes closed and bearing a striking resemblance to the photo of team Minato we often see as representative of Kakashi's grief for Rin and Obito's goals. She has regressed to an ideal; the horror is gone. Their expressions are no longer contrasting in an uncomfortable manner, instead complimenting each other, and their dialogue has moved on from uncomfortable phrasing into natural bickering. And yet, because of this resolution- this surrender- Rin becomes a liar, once again conforming to other's visions of her rather than expressing her true feelings.

Here, Obito reactivates his sharingan, marking a reversal of the dynamic. He is stronger than Rin, now, and conforming to a traditional Naruto value (self-sacrifice as an unarguably positive force). Any concerns raised by the undertones of horror earlier have been completely brushed over.

Finally, we bookend the scene with Rin once again reiterating her "waiting." Rather than horrific this time, though, it is resigned. It is the kind of thing a kind, dutiful girl would say- she waits in the afterlife for Obito, expressing no agency. The perfect image of a perfect girl, in complete contrast to her unsettling behavior earlier.

Although the Naruto manga spends more time in Obito's afterlife, we won't see Rin again for a while, so I mark this as the end of this scene specifically.

We receive no resolution to this horror. The handful of Rin's appearances afterwards do not address her actions or the tone of the beginning of this scene.

In conclusion, Obito's afterlife effectively uses unsettling imagery and dialogue to build tension without ever releasing it. The horror that it invokes is never resolved, and this leaves the audience questioning the reality of the scene and other information connected to Obito, Rin, and Konoha as a whole. It can be read as horror in order to broaden understanding of Nohara Rin as a character and Obito's relationship to her.

[mochiajclayne]

Hi there,

I hope you're doing well.

i read your post regarding SasuSaku and Sarada as a family and you stole the words right off my mouth.

I'd like to know your thoughts and opinions on Sasuke Retsiden because from what I can see, its only Jun Esaka (a mere light novel writer that writes non canon stuff) all over the internet being equally all over about her Sasuke Retsuden. I haven't seen any other light novel writer being more active about something non canon. Even kishimoto himself doesnt behave like this regarding his own work.

I'd like to also know about your opinions regarding Jun Esaka ATTEMPTING to remove or metaphorically kill Karin Uzumaki by making the main villain a Karin look alike and giving her sensory abilities to Sakura, which again, makes no sense. Does that woman hate Karin and SK so much? Is that woman so threatened by the very thought of SK as a couple that she had to incorporate a villain that looks like Karin Uzumaki down to a tee?

These are just my thoughts and speculations but I'm also really interested in knowing your side of the story.

Thanks for reading my long comment and i wish you a wonder day/afternoon/evening/night

Hi, @theuntamedangel! I appreciate the long comment! I hope you have a wonderful day/afternoon/evening/night, too!

Before I share my thoughts about Sasuke Retsuden, let me share that I did, unfortunately, have a sasusaku phase. I know. Shocker. The entire lore is here in case you're interested (promise it's relevant to my explanation).

I did hear about Sasuke Retsuden when I was still in college. Bits of information, specifically, about the chakra ring and from a perspective of someone who used to ship sasusaku casually, my initial reaction was okay good for them and I went on with my day. Note that I wasn't as heavily engaged in the Naruto fandom like I do now so for me to isn't active back then, hearing about Sasuke Retsuden, speaks volume on how it is over the internet that it even reached me.

I hate Sasuke Retsuden. It's badly written, it's OOC especially for OG Naruto characters, and the canon inaccuracies are more than enough to drive me into aneurysm.

Below this cut is my detailed thoughts about Sasuke Retsuden.

The villain looking like the male version of Karin caught me off guard. I don't know what the intentions behind the character design but I think they aimed for association as Jiji, one of the characters from this godforsaken novel, reminded me of Juugo.

I am not a sasukarin shipper but I do understand where the shippers are speaking from. I think they'll make a cool couple because Karin actually freaking cares about Sasuke when shit gets serious and outside of her "gag", she respects Sasuke's boundaries. Might be speaking out of the box but this novel in its existence was meant to be sasusaku-centric so the possibility of being threatened by all Sasuke-related ships, especially those making far more sense than SS, is high. I don't think Jun Esaka hates Karin. I would dare say that she picked a random character that could work as a direct contender to Sakura and unfortunately, she decided to scapegoat Karin. Moreover, the entire sensory ability shtick added to Sakura was uncalled for. I would go even further and say that Esaka's version of Sakura is what her stans hailed her to be--a superior version of [insert any Naruto's female character]. Even their pink haired kunoichi is incredibly OOC here and you expect me to take her seriously?

The funniest thing about Sasuke Retsuden is the way that they had to use SNS at first, specifically, Sasuke's mission is to find a cure for that chakra illness that Naruto alone suffers. Sure, this is SS centric but it all comes down to Sasuke and Sakura working together to find a cure for Naruto. Now, she could just write a novel about SS without using Naruto's "sickness" as some kind of a plot device, right? But no, she had to convince us somehow and an effective way to do that is literally Naruto and Sasuke.

The dinosaur. Don't even get me started. Even tailed beasts cannot fight against Sharingan to the point that canon graciously provided us evidence of both Madara and Obito controlling the Nine Tailed Beast. The very same Sharingan that made the higher ups of Konoha suspect the Uchiha clan as mastermind for that same incident. We're talking about the same dojutsu that manipulated the Fourth Mizukage. The canon inaccuracy throws me off the loop.

More inaccuracies. Suddenly Sasuke is an Earth and Ice Style user. Wow. Conveniently forgetting about Kakashi mentioning in Part 1 how Ice Style is a Kekkei Genkai that even Sharingan can't copy. As far as Naruto canon goes, Sasuke is a Fire and Lightning Style user. I don't consider Boruto as canon but even that animanga doesn't show any moment of Sasuke using Earth Style. It's insane that people claimed this as canon.

THIS DISTURBING INTERACTION. I did say that the OG Naruto characters are OOC in this shitshow novel and yes, unfortunately that includes Sakura. We've seen the way she react around Naruto's sexy ninjutsu antics. Unless objectification of women or the mere implication of it doesn't perturb her, then it says more about how Esaka portrayed her. I'd personally file a restraining order when a guy says he'd settle for my old, half smoked cigarette butts. I'm surprised that she didn't throw any snide remarks here.

WHO IS THIS SASUKE AND WHAT DID YOU DO TO HIM. This panel made me laugh so hard because I feel like Esaka straight up ignored that Sasuke canonically spent years with his family before the Uchiha downfall happened. I don't think he'd be this clueless about how a married couple acts. Even in flashbacks, Sasuke was shown around his parents or Itachi, literally with his family. I think he knows well enough about married couples.

The ring part as well makes me cackle because Kurenai literally wears a ring in Shippuden. Trust me, Juugo-look-a-like, rings are used in Konoha by couples.

The Uchiha clan symbol takes me out because AREN'T YOU GOING UNDERCOVER IN THIS PRISON? WHY ARE YOU SHOWING THAT OFF?

The Chakra ring in question. Finding out the lore behind this further upset me and I am thankful that I no longer ship sasusaku. Show these panels out of context to someone with little to no exposure to canon and it would be romantic but if you know Narutoverse like the back of your hand, this novel served nothing. Seriously, the fact that Sasuke is incredibly OOC on this novel speak volumes. Imagine annihilating Sasuke's character to make SS work? Insanity.

Writing Edo Tensei with rose tinted glasses disgust me. That jutsu is straight up manipulating a dead body at your bidding. Tobirama shouldn't have invented that jutsu. Hinting that jutsu to be used to revive a loved one that passed away is vile and disgusting. The lack of attention to canon isn't a new thing for Esaka at this point.

Even this novel can't cover up the fact that Sakura doesn't know Sasuke well. If there's one thing that's consistent in the prequel, it was Naruto that gets into trouble. Sasuke doesn't use honorifics and he got away with it. His bluntness doesn't get him and everyone around him in trouble. Sasuke only began resorted to extremes when he was batshit blind and sinking into the unhinged depths of his hatred. Probably the only things that Sakura got correctly was Sasuke's kindness and his nonchalance about his looks but that's it. So the claim of knowing Sasuke inside and out is preposterous. The one who can say that is, guess who? Naruto.

Ending this long analysis with this panel because honestly, Ino is asking the questions for me. Unfortunately, despite being "married", their dynamic stayed the same. Sakura is still that same girl that has a crush on Sasuke, except she's in her 30s and Sasuke is still the same boy that rejected her date offers and the idea of being together with her, even reaching the point that he's away from her a lot.

I do apologize for going off to the point that I decided to pull a meta post about this. I do hope you're doing well and I appreciate the ask!

[adhdnojutsu]

do u draw female character or just only male characters?

I draw whoever I feel inspired to draw, but if that's mostly male characters, I guess blame Kishimoto for writing women with the depth of a puddle of piss. But here's some! Don't mind the order, some are from 2006, others from 2024...

Ignore most links in the watermarks too, my up-to-date links are in my linktree in bio. In fact, if you see an active Itachi's Wetwipe or an ADHD.no.Jutsu, that's probably our favourite art thief, Joselyn.

Lots after the break!

2007:

Konan on the night Itachi joined and realized what he just did to himself.

How things should have ended

Kushina

Kurenai's team, 2006 or 2007

2007? Genma & Shizune

tbh I don't ship SasuSaku but they look nice together optically...

Itachi spending quality time with Sarada from my fic Curse of Love. If you wanna make my day, you can get it for a tiny fee here.

Does it count when she's dead

Older Sarada looks great for someone who doesn't look like she's from the same franchise.

Early one from my fandom revival era (late 2021/early 2022). Fic here.

Chubby Sakura, anyone?

[joltai-showa]

This post is a reply to these two posts, so if you wanna see me go insane over how Kishimoto completely managed to fail at writing Obito aka the villain that was the main threat for the majority of Naruto and Rin, do check them out first.

So PSA before continuing reading this: I will be replying to both posts consequetevely, which means that there's likely gonna be a bunch of stuff repeated. I don't like to sound like a broken record, but so many of my issues with Obito, Rin and Obirin crash into certain stuff that it's important to bring it up whenever it is needed.

And yes, I really dislike Obirin. On a good day for me this ship brings me as much excitement as drinking plain room-temperature water and chewing on some stale soggy white bread. It's a ship of the worst variety to me - it's simply boring, a good awkward boy and a good nice girl who's entire life seems to revolve about being emotional support pillow for said boy. And that's on a good day, because the manga aka canon generally isn't having a good day when it comes to the writing of these two, so these characters and their ship as it stands in canon requires the reader to switch between ignoring approximately 90% of what Obito does and approximately 50% of Rin does to get to the perception of cutesy doomed love that Kishimoto desperately wants to peddle. If the reader does not follow what Kishimoto wants to tell them (but isn't capable of showing at all), then what actually ends up happening is two psychotic bipolar little maniacs blabbering about some senseless bullshit that results in about a hundreds of thousands of people dead for ABSOLUTELY no reason.

(and yes if you have never come across my posts previously, I am prone to swearing, it is not some sort of agression against you or anything, this is simply how I am used to writing my own analysis posts)

so let's start with @innovativestruggles points:

I have always been an avid obirin shipper, and as a feminist, people may question the contradictory nature of this.

I'll be completely honest with you, the fact that you were attempting to defend anything female character related in Naruto is already brave enough, considering that Kishimoto can not write a female character for his life. Almost all of them end up being entirely depended on male character's goals and desires, almost all of them end up following in the "designated important male character's" steps, they pretty much have no interests or goals of their own, just their guy. Rin is even worse than that, because she is not even a proper character, again, on a good day she is just a placeholder thing for a female character, and in general in the manga she is nothing more than a plot device, a function that takes actual characters like Obito and Kakashi and produces some sort of results with them while she acts as the supposed reason for their actions. I specifically say supposed, because Kishimoto wouldn't be himself if he did not write Obito in such a horrible manner that all three of Obito's bullshit mantras that he is producing after his reveal did not clash with his MANY MANY horrific actions.

Obito is in an incredibly complex character and alas, there is a reason why I absolutely love him. He is my favourite, has always been and will always be (also, he’s a villain and he’s hot). Though there are parallels between Obito and Naruto, it’s important to distinguish the nuances. Both characters had no family growing up (I am not going to count Obito’s grandma as she is an anime only character and not technically canon), had it tough at the Academy, disliked by a lot of people and technically an outlier.

Obito as a concept desperately wants to be a complex character, but Kishimoto needed him to go through a shitty redemption arc real quick, thus Obito ended up being reduced to a 1.5 dimensional character that has exactly three types of arguments:

endless boring yapping about Rin (which feels like 80% of what he speaks about. ever.) about 5 of same frames shoved into the reader's throat every time this happens. real fascinating stuff, especially when this is what happens for 30 chapters straight (I am not kidding, I reread Naruto from 599 to about 660s, my eye is twitching)

woah look the world is such a hell (*insert three pages of nihilistic bullshit*). seems to be a critique of the shinobi world, but when you look into it - no, this is just this 30 year old man throwing a temper tantrum against not the system itself, but something like "friends dying", "friends betraying", "just death in general". Nothing of actual value that would make him the supposed destroyer of the system and savior of humanity, no, he is acting like an absolutely delusional child. the fact that this particular character does this is riduculous and a fucking insult to the reader's intelligence, because this guy has NO FUCKING reason to be this swallow and, I would even say, idiotic. this man has commited way too many war crimes and is responsible for far too many deaths, directly or indirecly, to ever have the fucking right to have the same stupid rhethoric that Naruto has. I can only say FUCK YOU to Kishimoto whenever he pulls this thing out of his ass in an attempt to make any of Obito's actions seem justified. Obito literally never manages to pinpoint anything correct of the system's faults (AND GOD IS THE SYSTEM FAULTY)

actual abuser ramblings. I feel like I am about to become Joker whener this shit happens. Obito kills someone, or someone who worked under Obito kills someone de-facto on Obito's orders, something happens as a result of Obito's actions - AND OBITO, GRABBING RANDOM SHINOBI #1314146 LIKE AN ABUSIVE HUSBAND WOULD GRAB HIS WIFE, STARTS SCREAMING INTO THEIR FACES, ALL SATISFIED AND HAPPY "LOOK! LOOK! SEE WHAT A TERRIBLE THING HAPPENED! ARE YOU FEELING DESPAIR OF THIS WORLD? GOSH THIS WORLD IS TERRIBLE! BUT DON'T WORRY, I'LL FIX THIS. JUST STOP RESISTING ME AND ALL WILL BE FINE." and NO ONE in the manga EVER bothers calling out this bullshit, because that would make Kishimoto admit that Obito is not a poow liwwle baby boi🥺🥺🥺🥺that just lost hiw way🥺🥺🥺🥺and aktually onli wanted to be with his fwiends and become the Hokawe🥺🥺🥺🥺but an absolutely batshit insane piece of shit that has no hill to die on

And you think I am being overly dramatic with the whole "abuser talk", here's some lovely stuff from chapter 646

For context, Obito activates the Divine Tree that kills a bunch of shinobi after instantly sucking away their chakra. And then he has the audacity to say that shit while everyone's watching how Mr. Genocide turns their comrades into husks. And if you think that, well, this is just some randos, they are here to raise the stakes of this endless battle, but no, Shikamaru also almost gets sent into the afterlife while Obito is preaching "if you stop fighting, I won't kill you". Just what an awesome guy.

But I got off track, back to the reply. Post 599 Kishimoto goes fucking ham on the parallels between Naruto and Obito... especially the ones that weren't even there. Because he is perfectly aware that even with the whole delulu savior shit that Naruto gets by using talk-no-jutsu, if things are left as they were pre-599 (which pretty much includes only Kakashi Gaiden aka 239-244), Naruto HAS ZERO REASON not to cave Obito's skull in and drop this asshole's corpse somewhere in the nearest ditch. Kishimoto, starting with Obito's reveal, adds more and more shit for Naruto to latch on, because otherwise what we have is a protagonist who pretty much doesn't have any companions who didn't get their lives completely fucked over by Obito, not too mention that 99% of Naruto's suffering comes DIRECTLY from Obito's actions.

So let's look at these GREAT parallels, which, thankfully, Kishimoto decided to put out in one monologue of Naruto's in chapter 653

neither knew their parents

correct, but a very simple a short question from me🥰so who is the reason for Naruto never knowing who his parents were? Who was such a meanie to take away Naruto's family? Who put fucking bombs on him 5 minutes after his birth?

(chapter 501)

Oh, right. The poow liwwle baby boi who only had Rin as his light and just dreamed about becoming Hokage.

I will go off track again, because the manga itself brings it up, but it's another important thing that Kishimoto wishes his readers to lobotomize themselves about: the timeline

The murder of Kushina, the resulting death of Minato and the destruction of Konohagakure all happened 16 years before the events of Shippuden. For the sake of simplicity, Shippuden will be set in year 80 (after Konoha's foundation), so the attack took place in year 64.

Obito is 30 (I have seen that he is sometimes supposed to be 31, but 30 is easier on the shaky lore of Naruto) in Shippuden. The Kannabi bridge mission was supposed to be around the same age that team 7 had in OG Naruto - 12-13. So Kannabi happened in year 62-63. Meaning, that IN BEST CASE SCENARIO between Obito waking up at Madara's and

1) murder of his teacher's wife 2) battle to death with his teacher 3) murder of his classmate's mother (the woman that Obito kills before taking Naruto? Sarutobi Biwako, Hiruzen's wife. And Hiruzen is Asuma's father) 4) large-scale destruction of the village he, supposedly, wanted to become a Hokage of

is at best A YEAR, if not just a few months. Because, again, Obito was recovering for some time, then the whole Rin's death scene, and then Madara trained him and explained him the plan. According to Obito's flashback in 600s, Madara kills himself by plugging himself off the Hashirama life support, and only after that Obito starts the whole grooming Nagato for the plan and attacks Konoha.

I point this out because I have seen numerous times how the defenders of poow liwwle boi Obito try to deflect the blame for Obito's actions by claiming that Madara made him do this. Madara WAS DEAD during all of this shitshow. Moreover, as you will see later in this post, Obito repeatedly does things that are NOT aligned with the whole ideal world creation and salvation for everyone, moreover, they oftentimes CONFLICT with this plan, and just outright scream I AM A PSYCHO WHO WANTS TO COMMIT MASS MURDER FOR SHITS AND GIGGLES

First of all, yes, let's admire how righteous and totally not maniacal Obito looks at the moment. "Do you know how long I have waited for this" MY ASS SHUT UP you're a cringe 14 year old. Secondly, let's hear out his wonderful plan, which is "gonna extract Nine-Tails, gotta crush Konoha". And while the first point does correlate with Eye of the Moon - they need the Tailed Beasts, after all - but then in Obito's flashbacks we learn THAT NAGATO WAS NOT ON HIS SIDE YET. THE GUY WHO CAN CONTROL GEDO MAZO AND STORE THE TAILED BEASTS IS STILL NOT WORKING WITH THEM. WHY THE FUCK ARE YOU ATTEMPTING TO STEAL NINE-TAILS THEN?? WHERE ARE YOU GOING TO PUT HIM??? Oh, maybe Obito kept a close eye on Kushina and realized that she was soon gonna give birth, which would be the primary opportunity to yoink Kurama? WRONG. OBITO BY SOME SHEER COINCIDENCE OVERHEARS KAKASHI TALKING ABOUT THIS OVER RIN'S GRAVE. HE THEN PROCEEDED TO KNOCK OVER THE FLOWERS ON HER GRAVE AND THEN ATTACKS KONOHA. HOW THE FUCK IS IT HELPING WITH THE PLAN???? YOU'RE JUST GIVING THEM 29847238 OPPORTUNITIES TO RECAPTURE THE THING????? YOU'RE ATTRACTING THE WORLD'S ATTENTION TO THE FACT THAT SOMEONE'S OUT THERE TRYING TO GET THEIR HANDS ON THE TAILED BEASTS??????

So, obviously, there is zero rationale for Nine-Tails' attack from the plan perspective. Well, maybe it alings with Obito's ideals, whatever the fuck they are? Obviously, glasses Obito would never do anything like WIPING OFF HIS AND HIS FRIENDS' HOMES OFF THE MAP and kill his dear sensei's FAMILY. MOREOVER, Rin fucking DIES trying to prevent Isobu from being unleashed on Konoha and decimating it, so what does our poow liwwle lover boi does? That's right, he pulls out Kurama and decimates the village only a some months after Rin died trying to protect it from the very same thing happening. Oh, wait, Kishi, so did she see that while in Pure Lands or not? Or does she have selective vision?

And mask Obito can be rationalized to do this by saying "oh, he's just showing the people the DeSpAIr", but again, this contradicts the manga with Obito saying "I don't care about this world yada yada", there is nobody who exactly would become targets for this campaign (Obito's endless speeches in 599 onwards are aimed at Kakashi/Naruto/etc) because we just see Obito interacting with Minato and Kushina, which would become despaired off the simple fact that Kushina is getting murdered by someone extracting the Tailed Beast, the village being crushed is just something on top that literally endangers his little precious plan more than it achieves anything. Is Obito ever shown to regret this as a stupid stunt or as act of terrorism against the village he supposedly love? NAHHHH WE CAN THROW IN OUR 20TH RIN FLASHBACK

Oh, and the timeline thing is important for another reason: poow liwwle boi defenders like to say that Obito went through so much and had witnessed the DarKneSS of the shinobi system, which is the reasoning for him going crazy and attacking Konoha. Obviously, this is bullshit, because the poow liwwle baby boi had no time to see anything about the grander shinobi system, he had been with Madara for several months with Madara being mildly ominous in the background and saying the most vague evil shit imaginable (before Obito runs off for Rin and Kakashi, he is still believer in the power of friendship and such, and the manga shows them having a whole wooping 1 conversation), then he witnessed Rin die, instantly became evil and commited a massacre (so much for cutie patootie liwwle boi), and then goes off to learn the plan from Madara and train to become as powerful as he is during Obito vs Minato. Even if I ignore the shitty writing that is supposed to suggest that Obito HAS ALL OF THESE IMPORTANT REALIZATIONS outside of the main plot, the timeline simply affords no place for him to comprehend the evils of the shinobi system. So yes, Obito is literally going off his anger over Rin dying and something something Minato being on another mission something something Kakashi (because there is two versions of the things Kakashi did that Obito is supposed to see, but Kishimoto conviniently shoves that little problem under the rug, god forbid we have any actual emotional interaction from Obito's character that doesn't involve the whole lazy Rin bullshit).

So, we are just on our first simularity between Obito and Naruto, and we already see that Obito's poow traumatized baby boi narrative falls apart when we decide not to go for the lobotomy Kishimoto wants, but instead realize that a) Naruto should punch Obito's skull open for ever mentioning his parents b) Obito is a mass murdering maniac with zero excuses and zero remorse

so let's continue with the parallels, shall we?

had it tough at the Academy

Now you're simply projecting Naruto's issues onto Obito. We have exactly two pages of Obito in the Academy years, and they are from chapter 599

And the thing that you are claiming as "him having it tough in the Academy" is.... him arriving late at the entrace ceremony in the Academy, Kakashi sighing at him, others kids just going back home, and Rin bringing him his entrance papers. Sorry, who is giving him a tough time here? Kakashi sighing? Kids who likely meet him for the first time not interacting with him? The Academy not waiting with finishing the ceremony because one kid is late?

Yes, this scene does show Rin being nice to him, but nothing more than that. I am not sure how old exactly the kids are in this scene, but considering Kakashi would graduate at 5, I would say that it's about 4 years old? Obito would go on to graduate at 9. A five whole wooping years that are completely not covered by this first scene.

(chapter 1)

And coming back to Naruto's issues at the Academy - Naruto was a delinquent that drew poop on the Hokages' faces AND he failed the graduation exam two times already, meaning that by 12 years old he got held back quiet a bit. He also has this little problem called being a jinchuriki, of which most parents are aware, and explicitly tell their children to stay away from him.

Obito graduates at normal time (9 years), similarly to Rin, Kurenai and Asuma. The only outliers would be Kakashi and Gai, both of whom would become two of the strongest ninja in their entire generation. Obito didn't cause trouble, in fact, it's repeatedly said that he helped the elderly around (and according to his own words even KNEW all of old people in Konoha when he meets Madara). Nobody in the village is ever stated to have anything against Obito, he's just an orphan from the Uchiha clan.

Literally nothing suggests that Obito had it tough in the Academy

disliked by a lot of people

Again, there is little confirmation of that in the manga.

Does his clan hate him? If so, why? There is no confirmation of this, moreover, Kishimoto keeps Obito's plot line and Uchiha's so apart it's actually absurd, but nothing in the story suggests that they should hate him or even simply not care for him. This is again in contrast to Naruto's own parents, because his Namikaze lineage was hidden (regardless if there were even relatives who could have taken care of him) and Uzumaki clan was decimated some time during the Third Shinobi World War, scattering the small amount of remaining members across the globe.

Do the villagers hate him? If so, why? There's also no evidence of that, on contrary, he was very friendly and helpful to the elderly around the village, so it would not be strange if a few of them were looking out for Obito. Obito has an annoying habit of coming late and being a bit of crybaby, but that wouldn't be enough to make the villagers dislike him. Unlike Naruto who is the vessel of the nuke that ravaged the village just 12 years before he learned of the reasons behind his mistreatment by the village.

Do his classmates hate him? Again, nothing is known about his Academy years except for one singular scene where he just meets them, but 599 also shows us some more interactions between him and the other kids in his generation... during the chunin exam

Do I even need to comment on how this is not anyone disliking him? This is just how competition goes.

Oh, and there's also a bunch of other minor things in this chapter, but I think it's a good time as any to introduce them😇

This. scene. right. here. It pisses me off to no end. You wanna know why?

Because this is the FIRST time we get Obito's Hokage's bullshit.

That's right, you aren't mistaken. The original Obito introduced to us in Kakashi Gaiden (239-244) NEVER EVER states that he dreams about becoming Hokage. He says stuff about how shinobi should act, he says how he's gonna become strong and tough once he awakens his Sharingan, he says how he is gonna protect Rin and others, he says how he is gonna see the future with the eye he gave Kakashi, etc etc. BUT NOT A SINGULAR MENTION OF HOKAGE BULLSHIT.

Kishimoto, for some mysterious reason, never introduced this CORE part of Obito's character (to the point Naruto literally yaps about JUST IT when he enters Obito's inner world thanks to the power of plot) when writing the original Obito, but the moment he needed to do the whole reveal thing and the shitty redemption arc in 30 or so chapters for a guy who's been our main villain for almost 300 chapters - oh hell yeah in 599 Obito gets the same fucking dream as Naruto, because otherwise Naruto has 0.0000001 reasons not to beat up this piece of shit. So, again, FUCK YOU, Kishimoto.

Right, what I was on about? Ah, Obito's classmates. So there's a bunch of other scene where Obito - HOLY FUCKING SHIT - is seen with someone other than Rin, Kakashi and Minato (very deep character, am I right)

And it's literally Obito being focused on Rin cheering Kakashi on (you know, THEIR TEAMMATE), so no interaction between the gang and him, and then later when we see them all planning gifts for Kakashi (who became a jonin at 13, A BIG FUCKING THING) while Obito is flustered because he was planning on confessing to Rin at that moment.

So, literally, the only person amongst his classmates who openly disliked him was Kakashi, who had a damn stick up his ass and wasn't really friendly to anyone (which we can see with how pretty cold to Rin and Gai he was at the time). And, of course, because we are dealing with Kishimoto, 239-244 Kakashi is a much bigger asshole than kid Kakashi in flashbacks post 599. Like, the OG Kakashi actually bullied Obito for his weakness, while the later one was mildly irritated at Obito's habits and carefree attitude.

So, in total: nothing suggests Obito was disliked by his family, by his village or by his classmates, except for Kakashi, who was just an asshole at the time, and his assholery varies depending on what Kishimoto needs for the plot to be.

Oh, and since we are on the topic of classmates: another magical lobotomy that Kishimoto expects the readers to have is for everyone to magically assume that never ever in his entire life Obito had friends EXCEPT for Rin. And I guess Kakashi for those 2 minutes before Kakko dropped that cave on their heads. Which, again, HAS NO BASIS in what Kishimoto actually shows us. Yes, Rin was the first person to support him, but he has known other classmates for almost 10 years before Kannabi happened, yet the plot acts like there were 0 interactions between him and others, which is... not how children fucking work? I can understand Obito feeling lonely because his parents are gone, yes, but then Kishimoto slam dunks on the readers' heads that UHM AKTUALLY NO ONE FROM HIS EXTENDED FAMILY CARED FOR HIM AND UHM AKTUALLY HE HAD NO FRIENDS EXCEPT FOR THOSE IN HIS GOVERNMENT ASSIGNED TEAM AND NO ONE FROM THE VILLAGE LOVED HIM which is a lot of stuff to shove down people's throats without giving a proper reason for this. People knew that Naruto was a jinchuriki, so they stayed away from him, Sasuke was extremely traumatized by the Uchiha massacre, yet we are magically supposed to believe that Obito falls into the same category????

(also let's also mention who is responsible for Naruto's and Sasuke's loneliness... ah right, Nine-Tails crush and the Uchiha massacre, both of which were fully or partially Obito's doing🥰)

Which is why this

(chapter 616)

scene is SO fucking funny even without the whole "Obito goes full angwy babyman and starts stomping his feet and screaming YEAH LOOK AT ME LOOOOOK I AM MAD AND ANGRY AND DEPRESSED BECAUSE I HAD FRIENDS SO YOU SHOULD BE MAD ANGRY AND DEPRESSED TOO while the rest of the Alliance is scrambling to survive and grandpa Madara is chilling in the background" because no you had NO connections??? Kishimoto is desperate to peddle us that bullshit about "Rin was the only person in Obito's life (for reasons I will not be explaining because I NEED this shitty redeption arc to kick off)" and regularly manages to forget that "Connections" imply number more than one, and Obito as he is given in canon at best has TWO, 1 for Rin who is a plot device and 0.5 for Kakashi and Minato respectively. And he is insistent on "Rin was my only light yada yada"... until Kishimoto suddenly no longer needs it

(chapter 651)

As a writer I am honestly amazed at sheer bullshitery and audacity of this scene. Kishimoto literally makes the plot gaslight Obito into "Hokage comrades Konoha good Hokage comrades Konoha good Hokage comrades Konoha good". Mind you, the Hokage thing was introduced literally during the masked man reveal, Obito had NO connections to speak of with his classmates because Kishimoto was SHOVING the idea of Rin being super special to him THAT HARD, he didn't give shit about any of these people for 16 FUCKING YEARS (!), Asuma is DEAD because of the merry band of terrorist that OBITO CONTROLLED (and that's after murdering his mother), Kurenai is raising Asuma's child ALONE, and IRUKA LITERALLY DOESN'T EVEN FUCKING BELONG IN THE SAME GENERATION AS THEM???? HE BECOMES GENIN IN THE SAME YEAR NINE-TAILS ATTACKS KONOHA???? OH YEAH, OBITO ALSO MURDER IRUKA'S PARENTS WITH THE NINE-TAILS INCIDENT????? WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK KISHIMOTO? WHAT IS IRUKA DOING HERE IN THIS BASTARD'S BULLSHIT FANTASY??????? ALSO IRUKA GETS THE SCAR DURING THE NINE-TAILS INCIDENT???????????? WHAT THE FUCK???????????????

Okay, I am taking deep breaths because I am feeling like I am about to lose my damn mind. But hopefully my argument about "Obito very much wants to be a complex character, but the plot has him be 1.5 dimensional one by ignoring 90% of what Obito did and does in the manga" becomes clearer. Obito's connections come and go as Kishimoto wants them, not because they organically come from the plot, and lack of said connections is never explained, which is why I honestly don't blame people for calling Obito obsessed with Rin, because Kishimoto does desperately tells us that no, Obito didn't pull these 16 years of mass murders because of Rin, there was a higher cause... but then fails to show us anything coherent outside of endless repetition of Rin, Rin, Rin

technically an outlier

And I fully agree with this, because at least that is directly stated in the manga

(chapter 240)

The only thing I think I might add to this is, I believe, during Sasuke's first flashbacks to his family, he and Itachi actually discussed the age of awakening the Sharingan, and I think they mention that 8 is about the time most people should have it? Which would indeed place Obito quite behind as he awakens it at 13, but considering the fact that it requries the user to get traumatized, is it really a bad thing? Lmao, I guess it's just teenage boys' dreams that I don't get

However, Obito never had an older mentor growing up, whereas Naruto did (that would be Iruka)

That really depends on what you consider "growing up". I can't say with exact certanty at what point Iruka became actively invested in Naruto's life (because Kishimoto kept rewriting things + this stuff is pretty vague at where I am looking for it, meaning chapter 1, Iruka is interested in Naruto's fate because both of them are orphans, so no exact indication when did it start. but. huh. I wonder who's fault for the two of them being orphans is that), but we do know that Obito graduated from the Academy at 9, meaning about 4 years he had a mentor in Minato, so his early teenage years are covered. Nothing exactly certain about the period before that, but yeah, sure, let's agree that implicitly the plot suggest a lack of mentor for Obito's childhood.

But another thing that, I believe, should be brought up, is the start of the Third Shinobi World War. I don't wanna repeat the lecture about establishing this date, but basically the beginning of it would be right around when Obito was 8, so yes, the general political situation had significantly worsened, and Obito would have probably started feeling the effects of the war enveloping the world, but Obito soon gains an older guiding figure.

Because neither of them had their families, Naruto was lucky that he had Iruka. Iruka provided that big brother figure, the mentor and in some ways a caring environment for Naruto, despite the hardships. Obito, however, did not receive any of this. 

Naruto still lived alone in the state-provided flat with mountains of trash and ate ramen with expired milk, something to this extent. This is not to mention the villagers actively shunning him for being the vessel for Nine-Tails. Obito, meanwhile, is not confirmed to have these hardships in the plot, moreover, as I have explained, a lot of the things you mentioned are assumptions that clash with what is seen in canon. Unless, of course, we are putting Obito's perspective above all, and Rin and the others cheering Kakashi and Gai fighting while ignoring Obito is literally the worst thing ever, but this is straight up offensive to Naruto's experiences.

And also while we are on this topic let's return to Naruto's talk-no-jutsu here, yeah, the same one he had after the plot magically had Naruto learn Obito's memories, specifically the ones pre-Nagato grooming, pre-Konoha destruction, pre-Kushina murder, pre-overtaking Akatsuki, pre-overtaking Kirigakure, pre-Uchiha massacre, pre-Akatsuki jinchuriki hunt, pre-Sasuke grooming, pre-Konan's murder. Which. Wow. How convenient, Kishimoto.

So Naruto here explicitly says that OMG U R JUST LIKE ME FR when it comes to the Hokage dream (that Obito gains upon the masked man reveal as far as the narrative is concerned)... only he is literally pulling this out of his ass, because, again, if Naruto was not introduced to some new memories the readers didn't see, there is nothing suggesting Naruto's claim. This entire thing hinges on readers taking the lobotomy pill and ignoring the giant extended family Obito had + the elderly in the village and not asking for an explanation as to why Obito would feel this extreme loneliness that would require latching onto Rin that strongly. I can agree with "lonely because parents gone", but beyond that this is just Naruto using the power of plot to fix Obito's worldviews.

What Obito did have, was Rin. The two have been childhood friends for a very long time. Rin gave Obito that sense of security and attachment, despite them being the same age.

This is all very lovely and dandy, but you would need to find me a scene showing them being childhood friends. For this post I have reread all chapters starting from 599 and to about 660(?) where I gave up because the conversation between defeated Obito, Kakashi and Minato was causing me to overdose on cringe. And during this entire period the only memory that anyone had of the two of them being children is that Academy arrival scene. THAT'S IT.

Then we have the team Minato introduction scene, but it's obviously after they become genins, so 9 years old. There's also this scene:

But if you check the earlier screenshots, you will actually realize that Rin is wearing the kimono that she has during the chunin exam + she has Konoha's headband, so they are already about 10 years old (at 9 they graduated the Academy, at 11 they became chunins, but Obito didn't pass this particular exam). So the kids you are claiming to be such good childhood friends with Rin being the sole pillar of emotional support for Obito have a giant 5 YEAR LONG GAP, and with Rin only living to 14 THAT IS A LOT OF TIME MISSING.

And in the other scenes Rin is already wearing her chunin get-up, so they are both 11+ years by that point. Meaning that as far as canon shows, Rin was nice to him that one time during the Academy entrance ceremony when they were, like, 4, then we HAVE NOTHING until they become team Minato, and then we have an array of very similar scenes where Obito speaks about how he's gonna become Hokage and Rin looks pretty and nods along (an incredible show of personality, Kishimoto). And then we get to Kannabi where Rin seems as about as upset as Kakashi is, even if Obito, her supposedly best friend, GOT CRUSHED ALIVE and is begging her to get his eye out of his eye socket and shove it into Kakashi's still untreated wound. And Kakashi, as we know, didn't get along really well with Obito until like 15 minutes ago.

But then Rin does the single most psychotic thing imaginable: Obito gets finally crushed, her supposed best friend's body turns into tomato paste that they can't even pick up and will have to leave him behind on the enemy territory, and as Kakashi explains how Obito loved Rin and died for her, the girl opens her MOUTH AND STARTS CONFESSING TO KAKASHI.

DARLING CAN YOU WAIT LITERALLY LIKE 5 MINUTES BEFORE ANNOUNCING THAT? ZETSUS DRAGGING AWAY OBITO'S HALF-DEAD BODY CAN PROBABLY HEAR YOU THROUGH THE ROCKS. WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK, HE JUST DIED!

And, I understand, in Kishimoto's mind this is all probably very romantic and tragic, but to me this is just another example of Rin's character flipfloping between the cutesy innocent girl in team Minato and the single biggest psychopath known to Konoha in her generation and this is only because Obito's turn to dark side happened outside of Konoha.

So, in total: one interaction as children, numerous interactions in team Minato, but it's literally the same one with them doing the same things, and then the Kannabi bridge. I am sorry, but this is one of the worst executions of childhood friends I have ever seen, if they are supposed to be that way. And on THIS + Rin's flipfloping character that gains and loses cutesy girl characteristics depending on Kishimoto's mood is on what Obito's entire fucking arc hinges. Obito who would be by far the most prolific war criminal in the last 20 or so years of shinobi history😁

One final thing before moving on: it's actually the pictures that you mention later in your post

I don't really care if Obito is here trying to kiss a picture, he's a young boy, he does silly things. What I wanna point out is the pictures that Obito has, because to me they are VERY telling.

Kishimoto shows us 0 photos of Rin and Obito together, you know, the supposed childhood friends. The picture that he is trying to kiss is the one that they took as team Minato at 9 years old. He has a picture of his parents (thank god for Obito's mama cuz dad is giving 0 pretty genes lol), and then he has a bunch of Rin pictures, but the angle on them all is just off, like he is sneaking photos of her from far away, or when she doesn't expect that, or as if he is sitting in the bushes. All of them indicate very little closeness, like they haven't been, you know, childhood friends for years and did things together. Kishimoto gives them practically no mementos that would indicate that degree of closeness that the whole "RIN WAS MY SOLE LIGHT" thing is trying to convey, but god does he not save up on the scenes of Rin putting bandages on Obito.

Obito’s love for Rin transcended romance. Of course the romance was the overt part, but his love for her was his sense of security. She was his safe space. When a child grows up without love or care from a parenting figure or a mentor, they will find ways to cope and latch onto the closest thing they can find safety and comfort in. Rin took on this role. So when Rin was killed before him, naturally there would be a sense of deep despair and anger.

I will not be adressing the first half of this, because I believe I have made it very clear that Obito's attachement issues are very overblown with what is given within canon (unless, of course, we go into the whole Uchiha love/hate/curse bullshit, but to me it's Kishimoto's favorite crutch to fall on whenever the plot demands to know why the fuck is everyone tolerating Uchiha #13 yapping and doesn't call them out on their bullshit) and his friendship with Rin is shown very weakly, to the point I would say most of it is left to readers' imagination. That's wonderful that you found a ship that has this sort of transcended love vibe, but what I see is two characters literally strung together by the author for no other reason because mangaka needs that drama, one of these characters barely qualifies for a character and is moreso a plot device, while the other one COMMITS SO many crimes the whole "she was my light" bitching and moaning can go into the trash pile along with the man saying these things, because hundreds of thousands are dead for the delusions of this one guy.

What I do wanna talk about is Rin's death, because GOD this shit drives me mad for numerous reasons.

Firstly, let's insert Kakashi into the conversation, because Kishimoto twists himself into a pretzel just to somehow both justify Obito's turn to the dark side and Kakashi not being an utter piece of shit that kills his friends for the mission (because Kakashi is a fan favorite I guess and making him fully responsible for that murder is a step too far). This pretzel is so lovely that it actually creates TWO versions of events in Obito as a witness and Kishimoto... does absolutely nothing with the change in Obito's perspective. Which is absolute insanity.

So, we turn off our omnipotence as readers, and sit inside Obito's mind as he sets off for Kakashi and Rin surrounded by Kirigakure shinobi in 603 (this is the only information he has). The Zetsus later mention some experiment of Kiri, Minato being on a different mission, etc, etc. Obito doesn't understand the full context, cuz he's running for his life, and at that point he does witness Rin's last moments through Kakashi's eye

(chapter 604)

Huh, what an interesting expression Kishimoto chooses. Something in between betrayal, confusion and fear. Well, it wiil certainly correspond to what is actually going on, right? Right?

So Obito finally runs into the clearing and sees

Rin, standing still, looking scared and betrayed, while Kakashi pierces her heart, crying.

And so, Kishimoto in chapter 604 creates a pretty clear narrative: Kakashi and Rin were surrounded on a mission with Minato away, and, instead of protecting Rin like he promised Obito, Kakashi chose to put the mission above his teammate and killed Rin.

By chapter 605 Obito is already commiting the massacre of Kiri ninjas, who scream something about the importance of Rin's corpse, but ultimately no further context is given, so nothing much changes in Obito had witnessed on that day.

Wow, what a terrible thing to happen! Of course Obito would break and realize how terrible the system and by extention the world is, with Rin being killed for... oh wait, there's more?

And almost 25 FUCKING CHAPTER LATER we suddenly discover THAT THIS IS NOT AT ALL WHAT HAPPENED. And is it Kakashi who tells us his side of story? NO, OF FUCKING COURSE NOT, IT'S OBITO WHO DOES THIS. OBITO WHO'S ENTIRE FUCKING CHARACTER HINGES ON THIS ONE SCENE.

Rin did WHAT and was WHAT?

(I will not go into detail how Isobu being sealed in Rin COMPLETELY fucks over Blood Mist's timeline, that's a whole other separate rant)

So, A MASSIVE CHANGE OF PERSPECTIVE FOR OBITO: Rin chose this fate, Kakashi was doing everything in his power to prevent this, Rin somehow managed to gain enough speed and agility to overcome Kakashi's reflexes and THE FUCKING SHARINGAN to throw herself onto Kakashi's arm (yes, the very same girl who got abducted TWICE. I did mention her abilities flipflop depending on Kishimoto's mood), and Rin's death had a very certain meaning - to protect Konoha from being destroyed by a Tailed Beast.

(I also really love how Rin in 629 absolutely can not end up in the same pose she did in 604, thank you Kishimoto for your cheap manipulations)

So... this is a massive thing to happen. So how does Obito react to this upon learning? When does he learn this? How does this happen?

LOL. LMAO. FUCK YOU READER. (c) Kishimoto

Because it's just randomly shoved into the plot and ignored for the rest of the series, regardless of how it completely flips the relationships between team Minato, particularly with Kakashi no longer being an unfeeling traitor but rather someone who ended up in utterly terrible circumstances that he could not prevent and Rin... continuing her psychotic streak of "oh, Obito died? better confess Kakashi right above his still warm body" with "huh, I can't end myself, and I pose a danger to the village... well, I will certainly not entertain the possibility of finding my sensei's wife who knows all the most powerful sealing jutsu to keep the thing inside me in control, so suicide it is, and of course I won't go for any of the armed Kiri guys following us, I will do it using Kakashi, the boy I love. I am sure he will enjoy the image of me bleeding out on his arm for the rest of his life, especially with that promise that he gave to Obito". Another important thing that we learn that Rin REALLY loved her village, to the point of being ready to die for it.

And I will say what I think about this - you can not try to push the "cute innocent baby girl" narrative with SUCH a heavy decision done. This requires a lot a mental fortitude of someone much older and competent than the pure innocent light that Kishimoto tries to later portray her as.

But coming to the second point I wished to discuss and it is how Obito's entire interaction with the whole shinobi system completely crumbles with the change in these events, because the first version does show how messed up it is - Kakashi choosing the mission over a comrade, Rin's life being just a simple burden to the system, etc etc. But the second version of events OFFERS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in regards to Obito's understanding of how wrong the system they are living is (contrary to LITERALLY any other antagonist in the series). Because Rin's death in the second version is a terrorist attack that Rin herself decides to prevent. You can have the most wonderful and humane system imaginable, with free healthcare, children being allowed to be children until growing into adutls, elections etc etc, and it would still not guarantee that people with nasty intentions from using power to inflict pain on innocents. And anybody could have ended up in Rin's place, if we are under assumption that Kiri simply wants to demolish Konoha with Isobu. The worst that could be extracted from this version of events is that Kakashi and Rin had to end up in this situation at all without adult supervision (which is moreso to Kakashi's part, because Rin in this scenario is just a bystander who got abducted to be used as a living bomb, and anyone from a cat to a granny could have been in her place), and Rin at 14 being able to make the decision to end her life for the sake of the village, but again this is also motivated by the actual danger she presents to the people around her.

All of the above is probably a good explanation as for why throught the entirety of 599 to 660s Obito can not formulate A SINGULAR good argument for the Eye of the Moon that would show the horror of the shinobi system except for "PEOPLE DIE - SAD", "PEOPLE BETRAY ALWAYS - ANGRY" and last but not least "YOU WILL BE JUST LIKE ME, GIVE ME A SECOND TO MURDER ANOTHER DOZEN OF YOUR COMRADES". I shit you not, the guy who was the one behind Blood Mist, witnessed the fate of Amegakure, was part of the Uchiha massacre, collected and personally knew members of Akatsuki, had been this amazing strategist and manipulator for the last 16 years CAN NOT say anything that wouldn't be about him being mad about Rin dying and how everyone's gonna be just like him fr.

The closest he ever gets to this is soon after Neji's death, remembering this wonderful thing called the cursed seal that the main branch of Hyuga would place on its cadet branch members regardless of their age whenever the current heir of the clan would turn 3, and this seal can also be used to inflict pain on the bearers by the people of the main branch. So essentially Konoha has a literal enslaving practices. Wonderful job, Hashirama. Well, what will our Savior and awesome guy will tell us about this practice?

Ah, he completely missed the point of why enslaving your relatives is bad. AND he is using it as a shitty Twitter-level gotcha that would sound like "LITERALLY 1984!!!1!" without ever bothering to read the book. God canon Obito you're such a loser.

Which is why I really can just barely chuckle whenever I remember that as the apocalypse is unfolding, hundreds of thousands are dead, and Obito gives up on the plan of his life after Naruto talks-no-jutsus him twice, Madara dunks on this entire comedy opera and reveals that HEY IT WAS ACTUALLY ME BEHIND RIN'S DEATH! and most of Obito's post reveal yapping goes completely null because it wasn't the system's evil (the faults of which he is never shown to understand), it wasn't this world's evil, it was Madara's evil that killed Rin😁

And that's overall a good commentary on the final state of the affairs in Fourth Shinobi World War - the majority of people aren't suffering because the system, the majority of people are dying because there's two Uchiha assholes with their convoluted bullshit that are killing people en-masse for their delusions, one of which was dead for the last 16 years, so yeah, Obito ain't running away from the things he commited with "boo hoo Rin was my sole light" which is immediatelly followed by this

WHICH IS THE ONLY ACKNOWLEDGEMENT HE GIVES OF 16 YEARS THAT INVOLVED DEMOLISHING KONOHA THAT KILLED HUNDREDS, THE ENTIRE AKATSUKI THING THAT ENDED UP WITH ALL MEMBERS DEAD AND LIKELY THOUSANDS OF SHINOBI AND CIVILIANS MURDERED WHILE THE ORGANIZATION WAS ACTIVE, THE BLOOD FUCKING MIST THAT HAD KIDDIE MURDER EXAMS, DEATH SQUADS AND EVEN MASSACRES OF WIELDERS OF KEKKAI GENKAI, THE MASS MURDER OF HIS OWN CLAN, AND LAST BUT NOT LEAST THIS ENTIRE FUCKING WORLD WAR WHERE HALF OF THE ALLIANCE IS ALREADY DEAD, SO WE ARE SPEAKING ABOUT 50K CASUALTIES AT LEAST

buuuuuuuuut Riiiiiiiiiin waaaaaaas myyyyyyyy soleeeeeee liiiiight😭😭😭

(also I suppose this is how Kishimoto deals with the whole "so hey at what point does Obito actually see the problems of shinobi system" thing, which is. hilarious. a tiny panel with a moon on the background.)

Okay, rambling over, let's return to the original post

A lot of people would say: “but he had Minato,” “he had Kakashi,” “he had Kushina.”

I find it a bit weird that you chose to exclude Obito's grandmother for being a filler and an anime-original character, but included Kushina here, because I do not remember a single instance of her interacting with Team Minato that happened in the manga and not in anime/video games

but they only came into his life for a short period of time. Their interactions were not on an intense level as it was with he and Rin.

Minato was in Obito's life for 4 years as we previously established, which is a pretty big thing for Obito's total 14 year old lifespan. And I am still not sure of what interactions that Rin and Obito shared that weren't "she held his hand, put a bandage over his cut and said with a serious tone that he shouldn't hide his wounds". Like, it would have been funny and cute if we were talking about 13 year old Obito, but with corpses pilied up, half of the world destroyed and 30 year old Obito? Please give me something better than a placeholder cutscene, I am begging you.

And again, very little indication of their interactions outside of team Minato, so question mark to the whole "long period of time"

Naruto however, had Iruka, who most likely taught him a lot of things about the importance of the village, the importance of camaraderie, friendship

But... Naruto is learning it over the time we witness him in the plot. And it happens while we watch him at 12. So I am not sure where the "Iruka taught him" argument is coming from.

And Obito was certainly aware of the importantce of the village considering HOW MUCH dialogue is spent on him declaring how he is gonna become a Hokage. If he missed that point while having that dream, I can't even say anything. Also, Obito from 8 to 13 was in a militaristic settlement that was in the middle of a World War, I'm pretty sure their education wasn focusing on working up that patriotism in the kids that would soon go to the trenches.

Naruto had his fair share of trauma but he had support that allowed for some resiliency.

Gosh golly I wonder who was responsible for all that trau-- I am sorry, I will stop, you get the point.

And also, no. Kakashi was in his depression arc and didn't interact with Naruto until becoming his sensei, Jiraya was out there somewhere shitfaced and probably collecting intelligence for Konoha, Hiruzen was just creepily watching him through his magic ball without Naruto's knowledge, and with Iruka it's unclear at what point did he start feeding Naruto and chatting with him outside of classroom, and even if that started as soon as supposedly Rin and Obito became friends, Naruto still was being shunned by the majority of village and starts having proper friends only during the plot, so 12 years old and onwards.

(and, again, there is no reason for Obito to be left stranded by the rest of the society, nothing written by Kishimoto ever indicates this)

Psychological intermeshment stems from traumatic upbringing in childhood (lack of nurturance from an adult caregiver, abandonment etc), and then again from losing their sense of security/safety (Rin in this case).

I like your point, and it is kind of something of a new thing to me, but again, the entire scenario of Obito's abandonment and latching onto Rin is hinging on the reader making the decision to remove that part of brain that considers these characters somewhere other than the vacuum. It is plain and simple bad writing. I really wish I could agree with your point, but it would mean ignoring almost everything that Kishimoto showed (and I am sure that he was desperate to tell us something along your lines, but he utterly failed in that regard).

So he did what he could to get that sense of security back, even if what he did was questionable.

EXCUSE ME? QUESTIONABLE? QUESTIONABLE???

Several months after Rin's death, Obito kills hundreds in his own village for no apparent reason because the action brings his plan no benefit. Does that mean getting back the security? Obito also kills the mother of his own classmate, never showing regret for it, before proceeding to put a kunai against a newborns throat and booby trapping him. Was he getting back the security this way? Obito also manipulates the leaders of original Akatsuki into doing his bidding and when the plan doesn't work, gosh golly one of them dies in an internal strife, which seems just so terribly convenient for him. Is being a manipulative and lying bastard part of his security blanket? He then also proceeds to put the Fourth Mizukage under his genjutsu and what followed was one the most brutal regimes shinobi world ever knew. Did he felt safe and happy becoming the reason for an entire village's and likely country's suffering? Said regime also included mandatory battles between children of Academy age, so 8-10 years old, and death squads that would kill anyone attempting to desert said regime, and the only profit that Obito got for his plan from this entire affair was Kisame joining Akatsuki. Well, surely, that seems like a mildly questionable thing to get his sense of security back, hm?

I am not even gonna bothering continuing, but I can make this paragraph twice as large without much trouble. Obito was not simply doing questionable things, he was an absolute genocidal maniac, and very much had a tendency for opportunistic murder, and a lot of the things he did have no explained or apparent reason.

Then you have the complexity of the curse of hatred that intertwines the storyline, which make things even more complicated. But this curse was what pushed the storyline and placed Obito as an antagonist.

As I have already stated, a cheap copout from Kishimoto to not bother himself with writing anything more complicated than a story for first graders

He did not start a war because of a girl. He started a war because he was angry with the way the world functioned. How the countless wars kept ending lives and taking loved ones away from people. He did not want people to go through what he went through.

LMAO. So, obviously, yes, the favorite argument provided with Kishimoto's own heavy-handed writing: "I did not start a war over a girl. I will only mention her fifty times. And think of only her whevener something major will happen to me. Fuck those people that I met over the last 16 years and who ended up dead because of my actions or my plan. They don't matter, only the people I spoke with when I was 13 do. And I will not be able to provide anything of substance whenever an opportunity to talk about the faults of the system will arise. Just general throwing hands in the air and dramatic mumbling about despair."

And rereading the manga, it is actually apparent that he can't produce anything about the shinobi system (because Kishimoto never ended up giving him a moment to understand this, duh), so he consistenly attacks the world for things like people dying in general, which, if you ask me, is the point where any and all discussion with Obito should have ended, because he is clearly absolutely delusional and, similarly to the war that HE started, it is a conflict between the humanity as it is surviving or this guy's delusions entrapping everyone.

How the countless wars kept ending lives and taking loved ones away from people. He did not want people to go through what he went through.

Damn, nothing says "I hate wars" like creating and controlling an international terrorist organization that specializes on taking the war business and spends YEARS doing random side-quests for money when your own plan has zero need for money, so you pretty much allow these bloodthirsty assholes to run amock. Nothing says "I hate wars" like sending said assholes into highly-populated areas to catch the jinchuriki when you are shown repeatedly to have the abilities to do so quickly and effiently, but nope, let's nuke Sunagakure, because "I hate wars". "I do not want people to go through what I went through", so I am going to have 8 year old children battle each other to death in the village where I took control, and if anyone tries to run away from that, I will have a death squad ready. Wow, I was so lonely as I child, but don't worry, little Uchiha, I am going to stab you and your family tonight, because I do not want you to go through what I went through. Oh, Sasuke-kun, hope you enjoy your new spacious home!

In essence, this mindset has villain written all over it, but it also compels a strong backstory for Obito because of his complex childhood upbringing and the trauma he experienced.

Trauma? Yes. Complex childhood upbringing? Maybe in some fanfiction, the canon is lackluster and has all the complexity of a third grader's math problem.

But people need to remember that he had a father who provided that nurturing environment for him. Even if his father died in tragic circumstances, Kakashi, though traumatised, was able to bounce back and push forward with the support of his friends and village.

These are not simply tragic circumstances, that's an 8 year old walking into his home and finding his father after he commited suicide. Your point about adult figures is a bit more appropriate this time with Kakashi, in my opinion, because Sakumo would kill himself when Kakashi was 8, and team Minato wouldn't become a team until Obito's and Rin's graduation when they were 9, so Kakashi ended up kind of being passed down from Sakumo and Minato. It still doesn't mean that it somehow alleviated Kakashi's condition, because we still see him holding onto these rigorous anti-Sakumo ideals during Kannabi bridge, all of which culminated in Obito's "death", so I am not exactly sure at what point the "bounce back" happens, because things get only worse for him with Rin and Minato getting killed. I don't even think Kishimoto actually shows us Kakashi getting back to it, all of it is coming from external sources that aren't written by Kishimoto? Kakashi just kinda loses everything and then we see him still staying alive and not following the allure of his dad's path. Kakashi has a lot of generic talk about friendship and comraderie, but I can't remember what exactly brought him back from losing everything that was related to his team? So he's a weird example to compare Obito against.

It all comes back to childhood upbringing and the presence of an adult caregiver/mentor.

And in example with Kakashi the adult mentor is also killed the second time and Kakashi loses everything. Again being saved by off-screen camraderie and power of friendship, and also general desire to continue spreading Obito's ideals. So, still a weird example.

That, and then again, the presence of the curse of hatred (which was why Sasuke was pretty fucked up despite coming from a loving family). 

Curse of hatred is lazy bullshit and Sasuke was not fucking fine because one wonderful evening he stumbled upon his entire family massacred, then got tortured by his beloved brother after witnessing him kill their parents, and then he had to alive alone in the very same compound where his entire family was killed, and then his brother returned and tortured him again, now sending him into a coma. That's just some of the few things that come to mind when it comes to Sasuke being fucked up.

This is the reason why I do not ship Obito x Kakashi. To me there was no love, care and nurturing between those two. Obito “died” not long after being friendly with Kakashi, so that wouldn’t warrant a ship between those two. Whereas with Rin, it is a different story.

I don't particularly enjoy Obikaka either, but I can understand why people would ship it (unlike canon Obirin canon Obikaka at least has two characters interacting), however again this comes from a lot of stretching of canon to the limit. You have correctly stated that there was no proper friendship shared between the two of them (which I see Obikaka shippers debating), Kakashi is practically bullying him during Kannabi bridge mission, and when they finally did see eye to eye (BADUMS) it was like 5 minutes before Kakko dropped the cave on their heads. But what is fascinating between the two is what they symbolize to each other (and no, regardless of what Kishimoto is peddaling, I don't believe in any deep friendship and understanding between them during Fourth Shinobi World War, they are grown ass men who have lived with their plans and ideals for far too long + they haven't spoken to each other in 17 years), because Kakashi changes his entire life to accomodate Obito's habits (being later and such), Kakashi, in a sense, attempts to live out the life that Obito never got to live. And Obito... well, Obito's writing all over the place, so really this guy's interpretation is in the eye of the beholder and how much they are willing to ignore canon.

And like I said, just because of all this crap Obito’s been through, it does not excuse what he did or make what he did right (he was a villain after all).

One, it literally doesn't provide him with enough motivation for half of the deaths he had caused. Two, yes, the plot absolutely excuses him in the most ridiculous of ways, because poow baby boi upset that Rin dead. Don't mind poow baby boi using about a 100 opportunities to kill people when it went against his supposed morals and there was absolutely no profit to be made for Eye of the Moon, Naruto saw 30 year old poow baby boi being sad and dreaming of becoming Hokage when he was 10, he certainly deserves redemption arc.

And thank you for reminding that that post-Obito death scene exists, my night is absolutely ruined because now I remembered this "How to never write a female character" scene, with Rin finally rejecting her premise as a character and embracing her role as a plot function, and in this scene she fulfills a role that all male character dream of - a consolation prize for Obito who sent countless people to their deaths, brought about the apocalypse and got around to fixing it about two seconds away from midnight on the doomsday clock. But hey, at least he tried his best doing all of that!

now onto @makimahinalno points

What these two had was very unique and rare, and I cannot explain how much it irks me when people degrade and simplify it as "obsessive" when it isn't.

The uniqueness and rarity of these two stems from the fact of how absolutely half-baked their relationship is, how Rin's charactertics and worldview (which we don't get at all until that flashback when they are chunins and Rin says flat out that she wants the war to stop, which I guess indicates something common between the two, but also shows her not being a particular death enjoyer?) keep changing whenever Kishimoto needs them to ("I watched everything and you did your best" says she to a guy who demolished a village that she died to protect. Actually, two times, if we include the Pain attack. Oh, and the boy she loved aka Kakashi also got killed during that attack) and how Obito's 16 years of life post Rin's death had so much opportunistic murder that can not be excused or even motivated by any of his endless meanderings about hopelessness and such. I am sure that Kishimoto intended for this to be some sort of higher form of love, but with what he ended up writing Obito being responsible for, Kishimoto's own inability to properly handle the horrific nature of Obito's acts and, frankly, Rin's character remaining somewhere at placeholder female character level, every single time he mentions or has a flashback to her (and that happens A LOT) that really makes one realizes that either the character or the managaka are completely insane. But probably both. Which is where "obsessive" comes from, because Obito conveniently does not acquire any other significant relationships for half of his life, leaving him sounding like a broken record about Rin.

When Obito remembers Rin, when we see her face, we are supposed to think about innocence itself.

That's awesome, but making an executive decision to kill yourself using your crush's fist to prevent the village from being sent into past tense is not innocence. Being capable of taking out a dying boy's eye and transplanting into a wound of another boy while standing in the middle of some half-destroyed cave with no tools specifically prepared for that and neither of the boys dying is not innocence. If Kishimoto wished her character to be about innocence, he should have not made her an experienced shinobi (at times, of course whenever he needs her Rin becomes as incompenent as a child).

She is the symbol of it, she represents all kids in the world who deserve to play on a playground, be well fed and not have to worry whether they are going to survive to see the next morning or not.

Damn, and Obito really internalizes those ideals, doesn't he? Or does he become the head of regime that had exams for Academy students that required them to kill each other? The exam that got cancelled because little Zabuza has found a cheat code and killed a 100 children of that graduation class? The regime that had a specialized ANBU department that was solely responsible for people escaping this regime, likely including the very children that didn't want to kill their fellow little friends and not worry if the are going to see the next morning? The regime that had massacres of people possessing Kekkei Genkai that it did nothing about? And after Obito was done with that regime, surely Akatsuki did not recruit a 13 year old and a 12 year old almost consequitevely? He surely gave them warm homes, carefree education and uneventful lives? He surely did not pair them with fellow mentally ill nukenins and send them to complete missions for his terroristic band, with their faces plastered in all bingo books with a handsome reward next to them?

Again, I would love to believe into this idea of "innocence" that Obito so cherished and Rin seemed to possess, but unfortunately the only thing I get is three same scenes of Rin and Obito doing the same thing again and again + Obito's vague and meaningless meandering + none of Obito's actual messed-up shit being ever adressed in favor of the things above. I am sure Kishimoto oh so wanted this deep transcendent love and innocence incarnate, but you can't get rid of 600 chapters worth of questions by replacing all answers with "SHE WAS HIS SOLE LIGHT😭😭😭😭😭😭😭" Kishimoto created a character far too heavy that he could and wanted to manage, so Obito falls flat with Rin as the anchor that drowns him in his own lore.

I... won't be adressing the rest of your post🤣🤣🤣🤣you should write poetry, I love your flowery descriptions. I think I've made my case clear about how this particular interpretation of Obirin requires one to use their imagination instead of relying on canon material and preferably forgetting about the other big chunk

Anyway, that's about it. Thanks if you managed to read to this point, I am honestly surprised and congratulate you. I have been wanting to make a big post containing most of my issues with Obito's writing in canon, and these posts made me stay up throught two nights as I was rereading manga and writing this post itself.

And remember, kids, ship whoever your want, tag your stuff appropriately, and don't try to get into the depths of Naruto canon, or you'll end up in this wormhole just like I did. With Kishimoto at the helm, nobody is a winner.

Sending cheers to the authors of original posts!

(and yes if you are wondering why I stopped attaching pictures to the post past a certain point - I hit the limit on them and was far too lazy to separate them into several posts. I might make a separate post with other screenshots of the manga that I have where Kishimoto reaches absolutely insane levels of reader gaslighting, I was honestly torn apart by my desire to fall asleep while rereading this part of the manga and giggling like insane because some of the shit characters say is absolutelt comical in its absurdity. God I really have a love-hate relationship with Naruto's last 100 chapters, don't I. Anyway, I gotta crash, I have an exam in two days and I did not sleep for two days.)

[silviastoll]

Lemme scream about the blatant sexism in Naruto for a min

It's widely understood that Kishimoto can't write for shit. NOW, is that to say Naruto isn't a masterpiece? No, it's fucking amazing, but let's be real, 90% of it is accidental. Sure, the KakaObi writing goes hard and makes me physically ill and the overall story is enthralling and compelling. But goddamn, what if I told you that to be considered a good writer you had to be able to write women as well, what if I told you that to be considered a good writer you had to be able to power scale characters instead of just dropping random lore and then ignoring it.

Tsunade is one of the most well-written female characters in the series, but she's still boiled down to a sex symbol or the ass end of a joke half the time. She has complex trauma and a shit way of dealing with it but it makes her compelling, her desire to be apathetic but unable to actually achieve it is beautifully painful to watch. She is incredibly strong, politically knowledgable and well-trained and yet more often than not fandom views her as a belligerent drunk with a nice rack and a soft spot for Naruto, which I suppose was the point. Tsunade wishes that was all she was, but the world hangs heavy on her shoulders because of her blood line and the legacies she has to uphold.

And then we have Sakura. One of the most hated characters of all time, for what is essentially being a 12-year-old girl who comes from a STABLE HOME. I think what people fail to understand is that Sakurs has no frame of reference for the ninja life, her parents are present in her life and treated her like a civilian child throughout the academy and form what is seen in the series, well into her adult ninja life. She is the ONLY civilian non-orphan we ever see, the rest of the Konoha 12 are clan kids or traumatized orphans. Of course, she's whiney and doesn't care about the right things as a ninja, she was essentially a civilian until the end of Naruto. Even in Shippuden, it's very clear that while competent, she still lives with her parents and stays in the village as Tsunade's apprentice. Sakura's growth is obvious and makes utter sense if you stop the hate train and actually examine how her background and situation is completely different from her peers. Her love map and psychological development is probably the healthiest of the 12, because she grew up normal, or at least as normal as you can in a militaristic village that indoctrinates children into its army. Not to mention that by all accounts, shes one of the strongest ninja's in the world, but what is that when compared to gods?

[ricanvvas]

Hinata Hyuga Slander and why it is obnoxiously idiotic.

I actually thought the Hinata Slander was a joke or one or two people sided with it. But I am totally taken aback to realize that it’s actually real—and a little popular—it’s real?

Prepare for a run down through Naruto Series kids, because some few fellas clearly did not watch it properly. Either that, orrr…they’re filled with unreasonable hatred for a character who should be the last to be hated. By literally anybody.

I’m going to try to keep this short (I’m lying), but there are going to be topics on Hinata I’m going to go over so it’s not a messy bunch and rather organized and you can skip to which ever you find most relevant.

Before anything, a remark, I never overly cared for Hinata’s existence and she isn’t even in my top 15 Naruto characters but that does not mean I dislike her nor do I look down at her character. Now imagine a person like me going out of their way to take time and write an entire blog for her—yeah, it’s that ridiculous.

There will be that one person—and I’m saying this beforehand—who will barely skim through this and childishly reply to my blog. Catch me caring though!

All of the topics will include manga based evidence as well as a breakdown of the scene and what they portray, therefore, canon reasonings. There are plenty of other and more evidence out there, I will only provide some and main ones that back up claims. Here are topics I will be going over:

Hinata Hyuga as an anime character/character writing

Personality

Goals & Dedications

Skills & Strength

Incessant Love for Naruto Uzumaki

#1 Character Writing

While many people believe that Kishimoto is terrible at writing female characters, I’d like to disagree. Females like Temari, Konan, Ino, and Karin all pass the main checkmarks of being an exceptionally “good” character; a solid background/past, special abilities, and set personality. What I do agree with though is that he does not know how to put them to use, and it is obvious why. These females were not the only ones tossed aside—so were good characters like Lee, Neji, Jiraiya, and so on, all because of the author’s obsession with the Uchiha as well as Sasuke’s story.

Hinata is included in the “good” character checklist, and rather exceeds. The difference between her and the rest of the women is that she is the best representation of an individualistic woman and had incredible character development.

↓ How did we go from a girl so easily shaken and brought down with mere words

↓ To the girl who had the guts to charge against an Akatsuki member,

↓ And seeked frontlines during the war?

It may look like it’s only for the sake of Naruto, but it’s not entirely the reason, only partial. Everybody was set on saving Naruto anyway, instead of fighting the war themselves because they knew Naruto was their key to winning.

Hinata’s introduction may have started with her admiration for Naruto Uzumaki, and it did play a big part, but her entire existence never just revolved around romance. She had way more to her. Hinata’s character itself promotes women empowerment despite her not being the main female protagonist.

Through her writing, we learn that women don’t need to not seek love in order to be independent and a powerful female with goals and dedications that have nothing to do with romance. Hinata is a perfect example of this.

As a side-side character, Hinata excels in character writing, and is interesting enough to keep the audience invested in her existence. The next few manga pages and break-downs will explain it well.

#2 Personality

Her personality did not revolve around her undying love for Naruto only. She was her own person, too.

↓ While shy and timid, Hinata is also a pure and kind hearted soul, as we do not know any character she actually has bad blood with, making her somebody easy to be around with. She’s very gentle, making the atmosphere around her almost tranquil.

↓ Her conflict with Neji was very one-sided, and despite his harsh treatments, she still used honorifics and respected him.

↓ Yes, she might be a soft human being, but not to the point she is unable to pick out flaws in other people.

She seems more warmed up in Shippuden than she was in Classic, and it’s fair to say that ever since Chunin exams, she had gained confidence with the help of Naruto’s cheering. Confidence in herself and her skills. (Panels above may help)

Something to keep in mind is that Neji was known to be more cold, arrogant, and stronger than Sasuke during this time, by Kakashi’s words.

↓ Yet Hinata did not back away even after being told to, multiple times I believe, even by Kiba himself.

↓ This was the beginning of her journey of trying to be more assertive about herself, as she believes she could keep on going without chickening out.

↓ And she didn't back away when someone from the Hyuga Clan told her to do so--she was persistent.

Hinata was never meant to be somebody with great leadership skills; she has always been a follower, almost, who takes a lot of inspiration from people she looks up to. The obvious person, Naruto, and Neji were mentioned.

#3 Goals & Dedications

Her goal had never been only to be a wife and a lover to Naruto. It was one of her goals, the hope to get Naruto to acknowledge her, which he did several times. But that was not it, there was more.

Hinata did not seem so close with her family, so she had no certain goals regarding the Hyuga Clan. She was almost avoiding them and was deemed to be a shinobi, which she probably preferred, participated, and found likeness to, rather than the next heir to the Hyuga Clan, simply because her father did not believe her feather-like personality was fit for it, nor did Hinata seem too interested to lead a clan with such twisted rules and laws.

Despite her father's harsh, degrading words (and Neji's), she did not let it effect her because she continued to get stronger later on.

Hinata always wanted to be self-assured, and wanted to be as confident as Naruto always has been. She wanted to be of use, somehow. Refer to #2, second last image.

↓ Here, too, we see her admitting that she never believed in herself, until she did.

"I stared liking myself a little more..." shows she had very little fondness for herself.

Hinata wanted to change herself for a very long time. She did not ever want to stay the way she used to be--scared.

Another admittance,

But then...

All of these images show that Hinata had something she was thriving for, something she was dedicated to achieve that was not just romance. So, props to Hinata (and Tenten, but that's another story) for actually having a goal/objective.

#4 Skills & Strength

All powers Hinata has been shown to use/possess:

Byakugan (Kekkei Genkai)

Gentle Fist (Specific Taijutsu)

The Eight Trigrams (Air Palm, Palm Rotation, 64-Palms)

The Gentle Step; Twin Lion Fist

The Eight Trigram; Twin Lions Surging Shots (Utilizes Hagoromo's Chakra)

Hamura Otsutsuki's Chakra

And some others I might’ve missed

I'm not going to make this section breaking down each ability, but I'm going to use this information to factually prove that Hinata has more amounts of known and used abilities than probably all female characters, as well as like 90% of overall Naruto characters or something. And she's definitely stronger than a lot of characters, logically, despite her not having been in fights very often.

During younger years, Hinata Hyuga was put against Neji Hyuga—once again, claimed to be possibly stronger than Sasuke at that time—and Hinata was actually able to put up with Neji. For a bit, or a while, it doesn't matter. For a young, scared girl who has never been in a fight before to be able to do so speaks for her skills.

Inexperienced against the nearly strongest genin, one filled with hatred, among her generation, Hinata exceeded enough.

↓ In Shippuden, we even get a scene where she protects Neji!

There's a very few people Hinata actually canonically fought, but when she did, she did plenty well for being a side-side character.

↓...And that same side-side character, Hinata Hyuga, was the only kunoichi in the entire show to actually land a hit on Pain, during Pain Arc. The inevitable praise.

Here comes the cries of, “but she was flung LOL” “hinata didn’t achieve shit from this” “he threw her like she was nothing”

Frankly, those are most ignorant things you can say regarding her actions. To stand up against an Akatsuki member? That takes a lot of balls, considering that nobody was standing up for Naruto, and practically gave up, giving into Pain’s near-victory.

The entire point was not even to defeat Pain—it was to defend Naruto. And in doing so, she stalled for a bit, preventing him from immediately killing Naruto. In that amount of time, the few who remained could’ve backed her up, they could’ve offered some sense of rescue, but because of twist of fate, and the expected, Hinata was unable to keep Pain off of Naruto. It brought her to near-death, triggering Naruto Uzumaki’s 9-Tail-Fox.

Hinata was the fiercest woman. She wasn’t stupid, she accepted she was weaker and couldn't win before she even got onto the battle field. But she tried.

The scene was never about physical strength to begin with; it was her strong mindset and dedication. She was aware of the consequences and still stepped in, demonstrating her everlasting commitment for Naruto. This entirely proves that she not only had great self-development, she had the audacity to stand against the strongest Akatsuki member (excluding Obito), who killed a Legendary Sannin.

#5 Incessant Love for Naruto Uzumaki

In the entirety of Naruto Anime existence (excluding Boruto), only one of its movies have been considered canon, that being Naruto: The Last.

While I hoped it would show us Naruto promoting to Hokage, all of it was focused on Hinata and Naruto's relationship, and we found out a lot through it. Like, a lot.

There are very few couple/characters in Naruto that actually have past together/some story and strong reasoning to start liking their love interest. Such characters being Kushina, Karin, Konan (the K's lol), and of course, Hinata.

There are filler episodes that go before The Last, but I wouldn't count them (even if they add on to the actual story), but in The Last, we figure out that Hinata and Naruto first met when he protected her from getting bullied due to her Byakugan, and he gets beaten up for it.

"Never go back on my word" was one of Naruto's internal rules that he stuck by and it made up his entire personality, almost. Hinata really seemed to respect it and use it for herself.

She tend to turn his imperfections into motivations,

Those feelings seem to get more bold in Shippuden and more confronting. So much so she did not hesitate to put her life on the line for the boy. Not "just because." Hinata gave a list of unavoidable reasonings, that we were able to point out, too.

And vice-versa, she did make a difference in Naruto's life pre-marriage. She gave him courage, motivation, and a reason to keep going. Refer to the fourth image in this section, too.

Then, our closure, he finally realized that Hinata has been there for him since the beginning of the times (also in The Last).

“…but…but…! Hinata is a stalker! She was always watching Naruto! She’s so creepy!”

Okay, but her canonically shown watching Naruto was like, twice in 700 episodes… ↓

And...honestly...it's not really...that...deep...lol? Old Japanese humor. And don't act like girls nowadays don't stalk the shit out of the boy they like--let's get real here. Just get over it. It's an exaggerated cartoon.

People have different views when it comes to love. But one thing I heavily disagree with are weak or false reasonings to fall in love with somebody. You’ll screw yourself over. Seeing a guy walk through the door and finding him physically attractive should not be your reason to “fall in love” and keeping that reason forever; you’re falling in love with his body, not him. It could be the start of your interest. Taking your time to get to know what kind of individual they are, and then accepting their personality, and falling in love with that person is guaranteed success. Reasons are important.

And Hinata understood that well, unlike someone who didn’t (I’m throwing shade!)

(A very quick addition and counter-argument I might get is that Hinata was the cause of Neji's death. I didn't want to put this into an entire section because it'll involve mentioning Neji's own character. But to be frank, Neji chose to protect Hinata and died that way. And I idiotically love Neji far more than Hinata. You don't need somebody's permission to protect them, nor did Neji do it just because he was the lower branch of the Hyuga Clan. Neji and Hinata’s relationship was beyond that. Way beyond. Reread the manga, or even rewatch the anime, and listen and figure out why he did what he did. It had nothing to do with Hinata being a higher rank than him, at least not entirely at all.)

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I was going to add another section titled, "Comparison", but because of image restrictions and as well as the thought that this blog is only about Hinata, I scratched it out.

I don't even praise Hinata. She isn't my favorite Naruto female, either. Personally, for me, she just existed as a character. But I'd be damned if I threw any dirt on her for any reason.

If anything, I believe Hinata Hyuga's character is underappreciated in the way she should be appreciated. She's not just some...loyal, attractive girl (hell, Kishimoto never canonically even drew her with tight/exposing clothing, they were always baggy. So, screw the anime studio.) She was a figure of a powerful woman, better written than any other female in Naruto, and a strong individual, with more story than several, several other characters.

So when I heard "Hinata Slander" was a real thing, truly, I was baffled. I'll admit my blog was quite messy despite my effort to keep it organized with main claims and obvious evidence, but there are still multiple more panels that back up everything I've mentioned that make up Hinata's character.

After all this, I really don't think there's anything that can be said against her in the context (and lie) of "she is a horrible character." And there aren't a lot of characters she can fairly be compared to, anyway. She's just awesome.

As a person, and a side-side anime character, Hinata Hyuga undeniably exceeded.

"Hinata Slander" is fake. Find something better to do than embarrassing yourself.