#just. isn't queerbaiting. it can't be. by definition.

[lucystark12]

milevens are insane

warning now - i get extremely heated in this so if you're going to tell me to calm down leave. before any of you weird bitches tell me to go do something more productive or to touch grass- no. i'm fifteen, it's summer, and i'm a highly involved high school student. i'm not here because i have nothing better to do, i'm here because i understand good writing and am able to have hobbies ❤️

anyways

was on the mileven endgame hashtag just now and because i don't choose violence i wont be addressing any of them directly, but i will be addressing some of the ridiculous bullshit on there. term bullshit used intentionally

the love confession came as a result of mike "gaining the confidence" to tell el how much he loves her because he was afraid that he loved her more than she loved him.

are you listening to the words that are coming out of your mouth right now? i want to sit down and get a coffee with you and dissect what the fuck you meant by that. sure, right, yeah, he gained so much PRODUCTIVE confidence from his conversation he had with will where will was using eleven to mask his own feelings for mike. it makes so much sense narratively that this end all be all mileven event is sparked from will's feelings and not mikes! sure! right! this is such an idiotic piece of reasoning. you are literally saying that you are okay with your endgame ship only being endgame based on faulty communication and lies. are you joking? "you just gotta improve your motivation" ass piece of evidence

also, mike being insecure about loving her more than she loves him is complete, total, utter bullshit. el frequently expresses her love to mike via letters and youre here to say that mike would have any problem with doing the same thing if he were insecure about her love for him? that literally makes no sense. i wouldn't be afraid of loving somebody more than they love me if they are actively putting more effort into insuring me that they love me than i am to them. like, what does that even mean?

“Will Byers is a pathetic loser annoying character and contributed little to the plot of ST. "

yes that is a direct quote. no i'm not kidding.

what kind of fucking neanderthal watches stranger fucking things- a show about a kid who disappears- and thinks the kid who disappears isn't a central part of the narrative? the first episode of the goddamn show is called "the vanishing of will byers"! maybe this is hard for you and your confused brain to get your head around, but el and mike met when mike was out looking FOR WILL. mike and el are still together because mike gained courage from WILL'S LOVE FOR HIM. what a fucking idiot you must be. i would try to explain to you the myriad of other reasons why will is absolutely central to the plot of the show, but since the show itself has clearly gone in one ear and out the other, i probably wont be able to get through to you either.

“what if we learned to cope with world that doesn’t accept us as individuals by embracing each other completely?” said about mileven

um.. what. that's literally byler. closeted gay guys in the 80s. but sure, the ones that aren't being accepted are the two white and allegedly heterosexual individuals. the "world that doesn't accept us" in question is a few high school bullies in comparison with the stigmatization, violence, and ostracization that has longstanding been a part of what it means to be queer. be so serious right now. mileven is not important for being non conformist, the GAY SHIP IN THE 80S IS!!

“The only people who queerbaited, was byler fans themselves lmao.”

even if we're ignoring the horrible grammar there are still SO many things wrong with everything that was just said. what they're saying above for anybody who can't decipher the weird medieval english code this person is using is that bylers actively queerbaited themselves which inherently makes no sense at all.

below i have included the oxford dictionary definition of queerbaiting: "the incorporation of apparently gay characters or same-sex relationships into a film, television show, etc. as a means of appealing to gay and bisexual audiences while maintaining ambiguity about the characters' sexuality."

how is it possible that byler shippers themselves are the ones doing the queerbaiting? are we running the show? nope! before you come on and post something as offensive as this- which i will get into- at least make sure you know what you're saying. xoxo

to insinuate for even a second that mike wheeler not being gay would be anything other than deliberate queerbaiting is insane. there is something wrong with you. aside from the parts of the show where his queerness is deliberately alluded to like music, costuming, analogies, allegories, and set design, netflix has been, weather you like it or not, actively marketing in favor of byler and mike not being straight. all below come from official netflix accounts-

how is this not queerbaiting? genuinely what are you on about. this is literally textbook.

“will is fruity but mike didn't like the fruit on his pizza”

you seriously are basing your argument about mike not being gay on him not liking fruit on pizza? you seriously think that some of the most commended and celebrated writers of the last decade would use symbolism involving a word that can literally be interpreted as a slur when their show has two characters who are canonically a part of the group affected said slur? are you fucking stupid? that was harmless banter used to communicate the differences in habitual action across the country. it wasn't the duffers trying to do for you what they do for us in deliberate, straightforward NON-OFFENSIVE symbolism.

i saw somebody claim that mike's character arc in season four was inherently about not believing in his self worth nor in his competency to be in a relationship with el

while i do for the most part agree with you, i'm going to ask you a question- mike was never anxious about his identity and self worth involving el before season four. why do you think that just came up now if not for the fact that he's been having insecurities involving his sexuality and romantic attraction to women as a whole? in my opinion, mike realized that he might not like girls in that way circa the end of season three- a realization that only festered and grew through the absence of not only the boy he loves that is causing this insecurity but the girl whom he is using as a way to say hey, i can't be gay, i have a girlfriend! mike was clearly going through some serious emotional struggles as we can immediately see in this scene with how suddenly awkward he is with will and the immediate emphasis that's put on the "from mike" on the flowers.

i agree that his season four and part of his season five arc are about his feelings of insecurity about being in a relationship with el, however, i don't think he's insecure because he thinks she's better than him in the sense that she's some superhero, i think he thinks she's better than him because he knows that he'll never be able to love her the way she deserves to be loved. he's not going to outright come and say to will that he doesn't think that he can love her in the way she deserves to be loved. he's closeted. what he says in the van scene is the only way he knows to express his feelings. it's very similar to what will does in the same scene. it makes no sense for this insecurity to randomly manifest in him if it wasn't for an external factor that doesn't involve el, because nothing has really changed with the dynamic of their relationship other than the move. one could argue that mike is feeling insecure over el's supposed popularity she claims to have in her letters, but mike's arc has never been about caring about popularity in school. that's not something on his mind so much as the grand scheme of the world is. lets not forget that he joins hellfire in season four.

“When Mike didn’t say “I love you”, By*ers twisted it to their narrative. When Mike did say “I love you”, By*ers twisted it to their narrative.”

you literally sound like trump going on about the democrats. listen to what your saying right now. also, it's a ship name. there's no need to censor it you fucking weirdo.

wasted time building up mileven

i'm sorry, what build up? i'm confused. there's no "build up". THIS is build up:

above is will, possessed by a monster who feeds off of those lacking love in their lives, only being able to be broken out of possession by a heartfelt monologue by the PERSON HE LOVES detailing how the best decision he ever made was to befriend him.

above is will claiming he will never fall in love, then his love for one of the other main characters becomes a central plot point of the two seasons to come. joyce and i see through will and all of you weird milevens

mike telling will how it's not his fault will doesn't like girls only after he loses the person he's been using to cover up his own insecurity about the same thing- not liking girls. suspicious.

will's LOVE FOR MIKE being the thing to give him the confidence to help el SAVE THE WORLD, only episodes after we establish that mike is bound to be pissed that he was lied to. and theres no buildup? THERE'S REALLY NO BUILDUP?

if you don't see buildup i fear you are literally just a lost cause because it is so painfully obvious to anybody who made it past seventh grade english class that there is something deeper and more intimate than friendship going on between will byers and mike wheeler.

“Women can be independent while being in a relationship guys😭!!”

OBVIOUSLY! i am literally the biggest feminist on the entire western seaboard. i couldn't agree more with this, which is why we have arcs like nancy's where she actively becomes more independent while still maintaining a relationship with jonathan. the difference is that mike and el have been together since they were like thirteen. when el was immersed into the real world for the first time in season two she immediately leaned on mike for support in that. it's not that she can only be independent on her own, it's that mike is directly symbolic to her of a time when she was stumbling around the world with naivete and not quite knowing how to navigate that. by spreading her wings away from that relationship, it will not only give her independence, but also a way to see beyond the barriers of hawkins and a life where she was valued mostly for the qualities she brings to the supernatural equation. el's arc is one of my favorites. i would never claim such a thing and discredit the essence of what makes the emotions behind her character so interesting. she's somebody who was literally raised in a lab. she shouldn't be held back by somebody she is quite literally dependent on.

last but not least, i saw a post that said milevens always win.

"are you sure about that?" i ask, noah schnapp's most recent instagram post open on my phone, finn wolfhard's spotify playlist in my headphones, my mike holding will's painting funko on the desk in front of me, wearing a yellow shirt with a blue sweater over it.

thank u for listening to my ted talk 💙💛

[genericpuff]

Was the Hera×Echo thing for real?! Was it like planned??? It doesn't feel like it was planned! It feels like Rachel just wanted to queerbait to gather more new readers wtf

yeah it's exactly that tbh

FASTPASS SPOILERS AHEAD !!!

like what more realistically happened is she saw people headcanon'ing Echo and Hera and went "yeah sure I'll do that!" without actually writing the fucking relationship.

This was even a problem back in S2 with Echo's character as a whole, she's introduced as this mysterious 'double agent' character who's almost definitely working for Zeus-

-but then aside from two scenes involving Echo accompanying Hera to the motel to retrieve Persephone's things and Echo warning Daphne that Apollo clearly isn't 'over Persephone' (because he had, y'know, barged into Hera's office demanding Hera's blessing) the whole "Echo is a double agent for Zeus" thing was only confirmed after Daphne was turned into a tree and Echo said "FUCK YOU ZEUS, I'M NOT GONNA DO YOUR DIRTY WORK ANYMORE!" which ... huh? Where's the plot? It feels like there was an entire story there that just got dumped entirely so that Hades and Persephone could play golf with diamonds.

Like this was presumably where Echo ditched her obligation to Zeus, but it had nothing to do with Hera, it was because she heard (I'm assuming from Thanatos) what happened to Daphne.

After that we only ever see Echo again when it's implied that her and Hera had some kind of falling out. No idea what over, maybe it was Hera finding out that Echo was a double agent, maybe Hera called her a slur, we have no clue what. But it's sorta just tacked on during an ongoing monologue about how Kronos has affected her.

The only other 'hint' we got towards it was Ares calling Echo Hera's 'girlfriend' but that doesn't mean a whole lot when we've literally never seen these two have more than two scenes together.

So now Rachel making them kiss feels more like her taking credit for writing a plotline that doesn't exist and was fabricated entirely in the audience's headcanon. And this is something Rachel does a lot, she basically relies entirely on her audience filling in the blanks for her nothingburger plot and then of course gets to take all the credit for being a "smart and inclusive writer". Where? Literally where the fuck is the actual writing?

Imagine if we had gotten a proper B-plot showcasing the relationship between Echo and Hera. Echo is working for Hera as a double agent and doesn't want to blow her cover, while Hera is suspicious because she worries her husband is up to something. Over time they work together, grow closer, Hera realizes that Echo makes her feel a kind of happiness that Zeus hasn't made her feel in a long time, Echo realizes that she can't keep lying to Hera about why she was hired and decides she values Hera's loyalty and respect over Zeus' because she has feelings for Hera now. Maybe Hera finds out about Echo being a double agent, either by overhearing a conversation between Echo and Zeus or because Echo outright tells her, and eventually it resolves with them finally admitting their feelings towards one another and Hera realizing that she's felt trapped in a loveless marriage that's essentially serving the same purpose as her union with Kronos, sacrificing her well-being for the good of a King. They kiss and Hera confronts the original perpetrator of her trauma, Kronos, ready to end the cycle of her abuse once and for all.

Like, the plot is right fucking there but Rachel keeps dumping it in favor of focusing on the boring ass heterocis nightmares that are Hades and Persephone, who get SO MUCH FUCKING SCREENTIME of just telling each other how amazing they are and how much they're in love (meanwhile we didn't even actually get to see or hear what Hera wrote in the letter to Echo, we have to just assume) but still tries to take credit for writing queer stories by just vaguely hinting at a queer relationship that has had zero development or actual screentime. It's Hestia and Athena all fucking over again.

It also doesn't bode well for LO passing the whole "bury your gays" test because Hera is literally marching to what she's expecting to be her death. So she's established as a bisexual character, just for her to be sent to her death, while Echo will undoubtedly get shoved out of the plot again.

And, I shouldn't even have to remind y'all of this, but Hera has been racist to nymphs in the past and Echo was her direct subordinate, her personal assistant.

It just makes zero sense to me why Rachel would suddenly force in a queer relationship between two characters who weren't traditionally gay in the original myths (once again removing the queer aspects of CANONICALLY LGBTQ+ GODS AND GIVING THEM TO THE STRAIGHTS INSTEAD) when Hera's story had more than enough to work with through her trauma from both Kronos and Zeus and her loyalty as the goddess of marriage that's kept her trapped in a loveless and abusive relationship. So now instead of having a subplot that could have been about the goddess of marriage realizing that no one should have to stay in a marriage that's robbing them of joy and the "sanctity of marriage" isn't worth being miserable for life, we have a subplot where the goddess of marriage who is racist to nymphs routinely cheats on her husband and now confesses her love to a nymph who we never even saw her interact with outside of two instances where it was simply a working relationship.

[eisforeidolon]

MISHA IS SUPERNATURAL BIGGEST MISTAKE.

CASTIEL COULD HAVE BEEN AN INTERESTING CHARACTER, IF HE HAD BEEN PLAYED BY A TALENTED AND PROFESSIONAL ACTOR. ESPECIALLY PROFESSIONAL AND SERIOUS.

WE DON'T DESERVE MISHA'S LIES AND QUEERBAITING.

BUT I THINK THAT MISHA ONLY TALENTS ARE LYING TO PEOPLE AND QUEERBAITING HIS DESTIEL FANS FOR MONEY. THIS ARE THE ONLY THINGS HE KNOWS HOW TO DO.

DESTIEL ISN'T CANON. JENSEN SAID THAT SO MANY TIMES.

HE EVEN SAID THAT WHEN HE WAS ASKED ABOUT "THE CONFESSION 'S RESOLUTION".

HE SAID THAT THERE WAS NOTHING TO BE RESOLVED. BECAUSE EVEN IF THE "CONFESSION " WAS ROMANTIC, FOR DEAN NOTHING WOULD CHANGE.

DEAN ISN'T IN LOVE WITH CASTIEL. HE ADDRESSES CASTIEL AS DEAN 'S FRIEND AND ONE OF THE PEOPLE CLOSEST TO HIM. BUT THAT'S IT.

JENSEN NEVER ADDRESSES CASTIEL AS DEAN'S POTENTIAL LOVE INTEREST.

JENSEN (AND JARED) SAID MANY TIMES THAT SUPERNATURAL IS ABOUT SAM AND DEAN AND THEIR DEEP BOND AND UNCONDITIONAL LOVE.

15X20 IS THE PROOF OF THAT LOVE. WINCEST IS MORE CANON THAN DESTIEL WILL EVER BE.

I'M TALKING ABOUT PLATONIC LOVE OF COURSE.

I SHIP WINCEST BUT UNLIKE THE HELLERS I KNOW THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN WHAT IS CANON AND WHAT IS JUST A FANTASY.

15x20 SHOWS TO THE VIEWER THE ESSENCE OF THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN SAM AND DEAN.

SPOILER FOR 15X20.

SPOILER FOR 15X20

SPOLER FOR 15X20

DEAN DIES, BUT EVEN IN HIS LAST MOMENTS HE COMMITS HIMSELF TO ONLY LOVE SAM. HE SAYS HE LOVES HIM AND THAT IT'S ALWAYS BEEN THEM TOGETHER AGAINST THE WORLD.

" IT'ALWAYS BEEN YOU... AND ME". THAT'S WHAT DEAN SAYS.

THE PAUSE IN THAT PHRASE, THE WAY THEY EMBRACE, THE FOREHEAD TOUCH. EVERYTHING IN THE SCENE IS POINTING TO WHO IS WATCHING THAT DEAN GREATEST LOVE IS SAM.

THIS IS A CONFESSION. PLATONIC AND SO BEAUTIFUL. BETTER THAN ANY OTHER "ROMANTIC" CONFESSION THAT I EVER SEEN OR I EVER HEARD.

END SPOILER FOR 15X20.

OF COUSE DEAN IS ALSO SAM GREATEST LOVE, BUT I WANTED TO GIVE MY ATTENTION TO DEAN 'S BEHAVIOUR TOWARDS SAM VS DEAN BEHAVIOUR TOWARD CASTIEL IN THEIR LAST SCENE TOGETHER. THERE IS NO COMPARISON BETWEEN THE TWO.

WE ALL KNOW THAT SUPERNATURAL WAS ALWAYS ABOUT SAM AND DEAN AND THAT A LOVE STORY CAN BE ABOUT TWO BROTHER WHO SAVED EACH OTHER AND FOUGHT MONSTERS, EVIL CREATURES, DEMONS, ANGELS, THE DEVIL AND GOD FOR STAYING WITH EACH OTHER.

OF COURSE WE CANNOT SAY SAM AND DEAN WITHOUT TALKING ABOUT JARED AND JENSEN. THEIR ACTING, THEIR CHEMISTRY INSIDE THE SHOW AND OUTSIDE TOO, THEIR KINDNESS, IS WHAT MAKES SUPERNATURAL A SHOW THAT CHANGED MY LIFE.

I ALWAYS GET EMOTIONAL ABOUT THIS SHOW. THAT'S WHY I CAN'T STAND PEOPLE LIKE MISHA WHO ALWAYS SAYS SHIT ABOUT THE SHOW AND THE ACTORS ( JARED AND JENSEN)

THANK YOU FOR LISTENING TO MY RANT, SORRY FOR MY ENGLISH, IT ISN'T MY FIRST LANGUAGE, AND I HOPE THAT I DIDN'T ANNOY YOU OR BOTHERED YOU.

MAY LOVE AND KINDNESS ALWAYS FIND YOU.

I have to agree. Also, your English is fine and I definitely understand the need to rant about all this nonsense sometimes, that's why I've got this blog! <3

I do actually feel like Misha was a perfectly serviceable actor way back at the beginning. I even get why they decided to keep him around when he proved popular with the fandom. It was indeed proven a mistake in so, so many ways as time went on, though.

Yeah, first and most egregious is the kind of person Misha turned out to be - or at least turned into after so many years of fans blowing smoke up his ass. A bitter, entitled, ungrateful, lazy backstabber who is perfectly comfortable telling blatantly obvious and contradictory self-serving lies and nonsense. Whether that's about the ship or his relative importance to the show directly, whether that's skeevy sexual comments about Jensen/Dean, whether that's trying to paint Jared as some kind of evil bully that abused him. He keeps proving again and again there is no bar he won't limbo under.

Next is I think his performance on the show and what his continued presence on the show resulted in plot-wise from the writers. He was fine at first when he was just playing a non-human mysterious figure that only appeared now and then and had a major role in the whole structure of the apocalypse. He even had a pretty good arc leading up to the Leviathans. The problem was they kept him around as a "fan favorite" after that when they really didn't have anything for him to do but eat up screen time to give J2 time off. Would we have really gotten so much bad, circular angel politics if there wasn't a need to give Castiel something to do to keep Misha employed? I personally doubt it. Even worse than that, though? As time went on, Misha seemed to recognize that his only relevance was baiting shippers and wasting time and leaned into turning Castiel into the type of character he gets written as in so much bad D/C fanfic - a pathetic mostly human woobie who is completely useless for anything but the projection of bizarre teen romance fantasies that don't make any damn sense. Which culminated in that bizarre ambiguous queerbait he and Bobo the Clown cooked up for Castiel's exit. Which doesn't even touch his later seasons' presumable attempts at acting where his choices for Lucifer!Castiel & AU!Castiel & Empty!Castiel were all ... entirely made up of bad accents and gurning. It wasn't about any of those character's motivations or places in the narrative, it was about the laziest possible attempt to differentiate them from his normal character. Even in latter season's SPN, which IMNSHO had so, so many issues dragging things down, Misha's lack of interest in anything but the size of his paychecks and con earnings played into some of the worst.

Which brings us to D/C and the whole supposedly canon thing. Canon is literally what happened. D/C didn't happen, it's that simple. Castiel rambled some ambiguous bullshit about love and got sucked into the Empty while Dean looked bewildered and sad at him from several feet away. Misha can make up as many stories about what the character was totally thinking and how he was totally coming back in the finale and queerbaiting about what will totes happen in a revival, but not a word of it actually makes what Castiel said "I'm IN love with you". Nor does it magically manifest a reciprocation from Dean. What doesn't happen on screen but actors or TPTB say about the canon is often called Word of God. Which yes, Misha's does not outweigh everything Jensen and Jared and various showrunners have clearly said. Jensen might have gotten less confrontational about shooting it down over the years, but the underlying message hasn't changed. Meanwhile, not only do the details of Misha's stories constantly change, but the general message of his claims has flip flopped so many times. The show was about the brothers, no actually the brothers and the angel! He joked about wincest, no actually he'd never heard of it! He didn't want to say what that scene meant, no actually feel free to attack anyone who says it wasn't a homosexual declaration of love! There's more, but Misha's not worth the effort of looking them up.

As you say, at the end of the day, anyone watching the totality of the show and seeing how it ended? It's very obvious the center of the story was a platonic love story. A complicated one, granted, but Sam and Dean so many times made it very clear that it was them ... and everyone else. Except in the same way that acknowledging that doesn't serve the hellers agenda in demanding a continuation must center their ship so they can finally have visuals to go with their fanfic, acknowledging that doesn't serve Misha's agenda of fleecing them out of money for telling them it will happen for as long as he can get away with it.

[readandwritesilver]

wwdits spoilers

if u disagree that's okay and i see you and i hear you however i fully don't think being canon was ever nandermo's future. there were a few things about the finale that i didn't like generally but nandermo isn't one of them. both these characters are so complex and maybe if we're talking about how going back the last 2-3 seasons should have been strictured differently then yeah sure there are definitely ways the story could have been told where some kind of definitive romantic conclusion made sense but at some point we're just talking about a different show.

yes i thought the plotline with nandor and the guide was really weird. yes i wish last season and especially this season had the emotional intensity and serious moments/plots of seasons past. but even if both those things were true i still don't think oh look we confessed our love now we are kissing yayyyy was the ending they deserved😭😭 seeing people comparing it to like supernatural or whatever other [insert queerbait here] just. idk i feel the pain that is being expressed and i understand deeply the place that it is coming from but i think calling nandermo queerbait is very misguided. those characters are both explictly queer. and they explicitly care about eachother a lot. they are also both explicitly not in a place for that kind of ending to be a legitimately satisfying conclusion.

the whole point of the finale is that life is going to go on (literally) infinitely for these characters. all the vampires are going to be there for a very long time. guillermo has grown exponentially in the last six years and while he doesn't know exactly what he wants to do with himself, he has a much clearer picture of who he is in the first place and we can feel sure he's going to make descisions according to that. nandor literally says to him when they're leaving canon capital, you're not just a human anymore, you can't ever just go back to that life, and he's right. they are both going to live their lives, and sometimes they'll be together and sometimes they won't, and eventually maybe they'll figure out something that works between them and maybe they won't.

i love nandor and guillermo together. i have written i think around 40,000 words just on the subject and made countless more posts on here. this isn't about the quality of them as a pairing, it's about telling a story, and i just don't think that was the story wwdits needed to tell in order to have a good conclusion.

tldr i think season six had a lot of sloppy moments and there are a lot of things about the season as a whole that i found disappointing, however nandermo not going canon wasn't one of them

[nokay08]

FULL OPINION ABOUT MOOMINVALLEY 4 SPOILERS FOR MOOMINVALLEY SEASON 4 ⚠️⚠️⚠️

THE CHARACTERS:

There were some new characters introduced (like Joxter and Aunt Jane) that I thought were really great, along with others we've seen shine this season (Snork and the Groke), which I’ve been very pleased about. I know some people have complained about Sniff, but I thought he was rather cute, even if a bit annoying.

I particularly loved seeing Moomintroll more mature compared to his season 1 arc, where he would cry to his mamma (lol) and instead actually take charge of "operations." Moominmamma was great as always, and Moominpappa was really funny this season. Snorkmaiden also seemed more mature than at the beginning.

Some characters were definitely more discreet (COUGHCOUGH Snufkin COUGH), but overall, each had their moments.

NEGATIVE POINTS:

As I mentioned, some characters were left out, like Snufkin. I think it's odd that he didn’t get any episodes focused on him, especially since (correct me if I’m wrong) it seems like most characters had their own episode in this final season. It feels like he was barely present, even at times when he could have easily been included (like the Midsummer bonfire).

Another point, which ties into my last, is the weird getting back together of Moomintroll and Snorkmaiden. While I love the pair, we’d already established in previous seasons that this couple was not working out. For example, in the episode where they have their own house, or in the last episode of season 3, where Moomintroll is said not to be Snorkmaiden's soulmate. I love seeing them together as platonic friends, but not as a couple—it feels weird and rushed that they’re back together in a single episode.

And this leads to the final, and maybe most problematic, issue: the Moomintroll and Snufkin dynamic. In previous seasons, their relationship seemed to be gradually leaning toward something more romantic, especially in season 3 with the "Lonely Mountains" arc. Even as someone skeptical of ships, I thought the show was hinting at a romantic pairing. So, for season 4, I had expectations, but we ended up getting less than nothing. While there were some sweet moments, the lack of Snufkin this season makes me feel like they were avoiding any development of that buildup.

I'm genuinely disappointed. Not because Moomin and Snorkmaiden got together—good for them, I guess! ✋😭✋ But it just feels like they completely disregarded the whole Snufmin relationship here. It really sucks that the representation ended up feeling fake, especially from a show with an openly queer creator.

Unfortunately, this isn't the first time (looking at you, BBC Sherlock 🫵😡), but it really can't keep happening. I wouldn’t have minded if Snufkin and Moomin weren't hinted at by the show itself, only to give false hope and, I guess, use those hopes for economic reasons.

CONCLUSION:

Okay ! It seems like there’s ton of negative points there but I swear I love that show 😭 It’s just that I feel like queerbaiting is not talked about enough and I hate that it keeps happening even in 2024!

but anyways, the show was great, and kudos to the animation crew for that great looking show 🙌💙

[love-byers]

Hi!! I binge-read some of your byler analysis, along with other users', and I can't help but STILL feel on the fence about hoping for byler endgame. I guess I just don't want to get my hopes super high only for them to be crushed by whatever CGI fest the düff3rs got in store to "go out with a bang" (while, obvs, sticking to the status quo and what they think the GA wants to see). I've seen so many intelligent people write media criticism pieces and analysis in support of the ship, but I still dread that the writers cry plausible deniability on all the clues they DID lay, that the people behind the N*f1ix social media accs confess that they've willingly posted queerbait to boost their engagement and thus get a bigger paycheck (I wouldn't blame them if they did, obvs; besides, it still means that some higher-up approved those misleading posts) and, worst of all, that this whole thing may end up blowing up negatively like the JohnLock conspiracy or the Voltron shenanigans or, y'know, the Supernatural fandom after Castiel's introduction and up until that lame ass final season. In your opinion, what makes byler different? Is there real hope for a satisfying mlm relationship from a show made by het men that capitalizes on 80s nerd culture nostalgia?

Sorry for coming off so jaded: I do wish for a byler ending, but it's been hard to keep my hopes aflame against these worries :c

i think everyone has some amount of doubt, which is totally understandable.

lgbt representation has come a long way, but a lot of us fans who are a bit older grew up consuming media that either had no representation or shitty representation. we sought ourselves in the media we loved and never found it, and corporations exploited that. nowadays there's way more representation that isn't left up to interpretation or censored, but a lot of the time that's in shows that are about romance and drama, high school a lot of the time. which is great, but stranger things is a sci fi show with romantic sub plots. it's easy for queer characters to end up being left out of a show like ST, but they haven't been at all.

one of the big messages of ST is embracing weirdness and being different. loving whatever it is you love, unashamed. when a character strays from being their true self or pushes away the things they love, there are consequences for the character. they become less likable to the audience. the entire theme of s4 is living in the truth, not hiding things, embracing love, being misunderstood simply because you're different. all of that is very queer coded. and it happens to be the season where will's love for mike fully comes into light.

there has been so much thought put into stranger things. the duffers have said there are no coincidences. they put thought into everything, thats why it takes so long to make a season, because they care so much. there are endless details i could point out not related to romance. they've also said they've been set on the ending for a while and will not be changing it to please people. i believe they said some people might not like the ending, but they don't care because they're making the story THEY want. which so far has uplifted queer people and promoted being different. so some antis may call be stupid for trusting them, but im choosing to. i believe they'll do these characters justice.

and my favorite quote from them is "The best plot twists don't make the audience say "wow I never saw that coming!", it makes you say "I should have seen that coming."

as a writer and a creative writing major, i definitely look up to the writers of ST. they are all incredibly talented and i hope one day i can put this much thought and love into a project. and, as a writer, i cannot see them throwing mike and will's relationship down the drain.

so, what makes byler different? there's very few shows where this much thought is put into everything. its not debatable that they do that, they've said it and its evident if you watch the show. so i refuse to believe all of these things between mike and will are just coincidences or accidents. there's just no possible way. i definitely had a klance phase and i can confidently say voltron writing is nowhere near the level of ST, and neither is supernatural. supernatural is one of those shows that has a lot of seasons and has gone all over the place in terms of writing and plot. the duffers have known the ending to this story since season 1. and unlike those shows with lots of seasons, ST only has 5. it won't be dragged on and beaten like a dead horse like some shows.

you don't have to completely eliminate your doubt. even i have doubt even after all i've said and posted. there is simply no way to confirm what'll happen before s5 releases, and they want it that way. just hold on until s5 friend

[chocolate-cream-soldier]

Ok rant time so putting under the cut //

This is about the whole Peggy/Dottie and Agatha/Rio parallel thing that people keep talking about and yes it's been bothering me. I mean, we are what, kind of 2 months after the show's finale now? so I get to rant a little, and I won't do so on other people's posts and art cause I am not an asshole duh so this is the best way to get it off my chest ha ha…I've seen the parallel gifsets and I have seen some posts floating around about it and every time I see them I am like but but that is so not a parallel!! It really isn't… other than it being a kiss between 2 women and them both being marvel properties. Because then by that standard every wlw kiss is a parallel of each other lol!

Peggy and Dottie are antagonists ( u can read it as romantic. I am not gonna stop you. Hayley and Bridget had great chemistry) but there's no history between them prior to the show. Peggy doesn't even clock Dottie as a threat initially. The reason why the kiss comes off as a surprise to her, she never anticipated it and that's why Dottie was able to get so close without rising any suspicion…

Rio also didn't anticipate the Kiss and that's why she initially failed to realize that it wasn't just a kiss but also Agatha siphoning her power and surrendering to Death!

so if we are counting the surprise element as the parallel then ok this one I'll concede.

But that's the end of it right?

The two kisses are fundamentally different in intent and visualization. I need to know that people understand that, cause if not you are really reducing the magnitude of the vidarkness moment

The Peggy/Dottie kiss is a ploy , it's for shock, to frame Peggy and get her locked up, to buy Dottie time to execute her masterplan, also Dottie initiates the kiss and Peggy suffers the consequences so even from a purely visual angle they don't match up.

In contrast the vidarkness kiss has so much heart to it, Agatha chooses to kiss Rio and the consequences are faced by both, it's not merely done for shock value, they have been building up to it, this was the culmination of a season long narrative arc, for Agatha to finally reconcile her loss of Nicky and her love for Rio and that they can co exist cause she realized that the blame doesn't lie with them, that sometimes boys just die, that out of death comes life and viceversa, that life runs in tandem with death. So her choosing to sacrifice herself by surrendering to her love, it puts to rest (it might be temporary but still) the war that had been waging inside her, the immense guilt and heartbreak that they were both dealing with. Love can't conquer all neither can it lessen the impact of grief but as we all know and hopefully believe- it does persevere.

The point is-I know most posts are tongue and cheek but it doesn't take much time for it to shift in tone and for nuance to get lost in the process. I have seen that shift happening, people being annoyed that the only time we get to see women kiss in mcu they are just getting conned or that it's a cheap trick( or queerbaiting) but that's so not the story when it concerns Agatha and Rio. I don't really get bothered with bad readings when it's some random dudebro but when it's people who claim to be fans doing this, it definitely grates on my nerves. Not saying you can't have a different take, and this show had it's limitiations, the lack of a backstory for Agatha and Rio is still a stinger for me personally, but I also liked the show for what it managed to explore and I appreciate the care that they put in making the show. So I guess I just want to encourage these kind of creatives and want them to feel empowered and bold enough to create more diverse stories. I know this is * piss on the poor* website but please please I need people to stop reducing stories into 5 sentence badly written summaries as if it's been generated by chatgpt, cause that's really counterproductive imo.

// that's the rant, sorry anyone who stumbled upon this suddenly and had to deal with my wordy and somewhat nonsensical ramble lol. I will shut up and go back to scrolling for pretty arts and fics on my dash now. Thanks and goodbye.

[but-a-humble-goon]

for, https://www.tumblr.com/but-a-humble-goon/754670294342500352/name-a-character-from-one-of-my-fandoms-and-ill?source=share

Cassandra Cain, naturally.

If you already got Cassandra then I'll take a wild swing and go for Emerald Sustrai.

I ain't got Cassandra yet funnily enough. Cassandra Cain Three personal headcanon facts about them -Even after she learns to talk she's still trying to figure out what's going on via inference in 90% of social situations. Words are challenging and not the kind of challenging she likes. -Cass hates stakeouts more than anything in the world. She is a creature of pure motion, she must be free. It takes all of her considerable will and discipline to sit still for longer than an hour or so and it feels like actual torture. -She gets sincerely very emotional listening to Evanescence. She's got no idea about their pop culture context, she just feels very seen by their music. Like she senses a spiritual kinship. A reason they suck Basically everything about how she treated Stephanie in Batgirl 2000. Didn't trust her, didn't respect her, tried very hard to drive her away, completely took their friendship for granted, was generally insufferable and mean to her constantly, took Bruce's side against her and pushed her into getting herself killed. A reason they are great Cassandra Cain is genuinely the kindest soul in the entire DC universe. She is the very essence of empathy and compassion. She would take on the entire world to fight for the life of even the worst person who ever lived. I've said it before but no matter how much the universe tries to hammer the message into her that you can't save them all her response will always be "watch me." A reason I relate to them She's terrible with her emotions and even worse at social interaction and everybody around her misconstrues this as her being emotionless or just projects their own biases onto her. People talk about her like she isn't even there and even though she acts like it doesn't sting, it does. She feels like everybody around her got given a manual on how to be human properly except her. Top tier OTP I don't really ship Cass with anyone. If she's gonna end up with someone at this point it should definitely be Stephanie to give the middle finger to all of the queerbait between the two over the years. Five things that never happened to the character that I believe should have happened. -We should have actually gotten to see her seeing Steph alive again for the first time after War Games and gotten all the devastating emotional fallout of that. -they really should have done a Cass vs Jason storyline at this point, it's kinda ridiculous that they haven't. -Batgirl 2000 should have had a real ending and not just sort of fizzled out the way it did. -Bruce really does need to sort his fucking life out and admit he's basically been feeding her self-abuse, ruining her life and failing her as a father and mentor. -SHE NEEDS A GODDAMN SOLO BOOK AGAIN Five people that the character never fell in love with and why -Conner Kent, much as I think there's probably still some not entirely platonic feelings between them, I don't think anything could ever really come of it, that's why I like where they left off. -Tai'Darshan, because that whole plotline was stupid. -Rose Wilson. If you were to ask Cass she'd tell you it's because Rose is a punk ass bitch. -Zatanna. I know it's like the joke that every bat is at least a little bit in love with Z but Cass could never be with somebody cooler than she is. -Any of her brothers, no matter what people seem to think, because that's disgusting.

[ii-neg-confessions]

this is literally the Twitter of Tumblr 💀 how woke do you have to be to be mad at twelve years olds. ofc they didn't know better and it was a different time !! Imagine being queer meanwhile disrespecting someones pronouns just because you claim they're "queerbaiting".

Oh yes! the english spoon is a colonizer for having attitude towards an implied black woman.. Pay attention.. he was JEALOUS that's why he was such a prick! This blog might feed my urge to get mad but this is all rage bait. ( Though I admit, Silver isn't innocent.. BUT HE DEFINITELY ISN'T RACIST?????)

They "Villianized" Cabby. Alright. Try having everything written about you, without your consent / permission, ESPECIALLY if it's offensive! I'D BE MAD TOO. But she LEARNED from her mistakes. She got better, I don't understand why you expect there to be no drama in the show.

The creators did do a bad job with gender & other representation, I agree. But OPEN YOUR GODDAMN EYES!

imagine using "woke" as an insult

it's the fact that they just swept everything under the rug and deleted everything without even spending a SINGLE WORD to hold themselves accountable for their past that makes me and many others iffy about AE

you need to educate yourself and dig deeper into stuff. II has much higher standards (or so it claims to) so of course there's more than meets the eye. There is a correlation between silvercandle and the "colonizer x defenseless native" trope that has hurt many indigenous people and still stains indigenous rep to this day.

the cabby scene was ableist as fuck and AE ADMITTED using her memory issues as a cheap plot device. but y'all just choose to ignore it

my eyes are pretty damn open, can't say the same about yours.

[olderthannetfic]

re: voltron being queerbaiting.

I feel like there needs to be a word for can't-believe-its-not-queerbait (suppose it could even be called that) because its a big enough phenomenon in 'progressive' stuff that ive seen that its hard to talk about.

Defining it like;

It spends months, sometimes even years hinting a character ~might~ be queer in something in the extra content and information (interviews, behind the scenes, official tweets, etc) in a way that is clearly to get more viewership and drum up the fandom interest by dangling Possible rep.

Interviews with cast and crew and promotional material treat the possible queer status like its a total spoiler and completely unreasonable to just say 'yeah they are bi/gay/trans it just hasn't become relevant yet' and be done with it.

When the rep finally does come it is either at a cost to the integrity of the plot/character development of the character(s) in question and/or they do a queerphobic trope (or multiple) like bury your gays or 'creepy pervert gay villain' whether or not its on the teased character.

With bonus points if:

The rep is blink and youll miss it in a way that it can be cut out of the media easily for marketing purposes

Its a company that isn't beholden to getting through to publishing (ie- indie company)

They act like they did the queer community a great service for giving lackluster rep after several years of taunting for views.

If you felt genuinely surprised that a media actually genuinely followed through on the tease and made a character gay/trans then it probably counts. It definitely counts if the bonus points get hit.

Its for stuff that FEELS like queerbaiting because they were being unnecessarily coy about it and then the followthrough was lackluster at best.

Examples include the aforementioned VLD and Supernatural.

The problem is I feel like people on tumblr would misuse it even harder than they do queerbaiting for shit like LoK that was genuinely trying to get around censors because its so contextual.

--

I've said it before and I will say it again:

SPN, despite how it feels on Tumblr, had literally millions of viewers who didn't see it how we saw it.

I do very, very occasionally run into cases where I genuinely feel like what you've outlined. Far more often, I run into cases where that perception makes a lot of sense if you're hanging out on tumblr but much less sense if you look at the sum total of the audience and all of the various opinions and comments of the many people involved in making the canon.

[neonscandal]

Thanks for your posts and metas, @neonscandal .... Before I found your blog, actually I ship tododeku and kiribaku. But thanks to you, I became bakudeku shipper (until now). Your metas are amazing and always based on canon. Sorry, I'm not good with words, but I hope you know how great your blog is (you are definitely one of my favorite tumblr blog). 💐🌷

And WOW these last 10 - 15 chapter, really are the best. Even my mutuals who are anti-bkdk can't deny Bakugou and Midoriya's bond anymore. Also, love Uraraka and Toga's bond....

Do you think it's possible that at the end of BNHA, Bakugou and Midoriya have ambygous relationship (kinda like Tiger and Bunny)....? I know it could be hard to be canon in shounen series.....

P.s Do you think SatoSugu (from JJK) is queerbaiting?

⚠️ Vague spoiler warnings through chapter MHA 410 at best. Covers JJK S2 with a vague mention of a character who pops up later in the manga.

It's funny you say that because I also love a good tododeku or kiribaku situation. Like yea, people have their OTP but... realistically? Characters should be just as messy as people in real life. ✨ They're going to date around before things fit together with that OTP, right? At least that's how I look at it. So I love exploring offshoots.

You are far too kind in these rough times but I appreciate you saying that (and reaching out). The swarm of asks lately have been so funny. I tend to carve out time to address them quicker than some of the other things bouncing around my head (literally, the exact opposite happens with fic updates 🥺) so I'm just happy I'm writing something. If someone else enjoys it then that's the whipped cream and caramel on my sundae.

DUDE. I hadn't read 409 or 410 yet because holiday chaos but I feel like we're beyond allegations at this point haha ALTHOUGH, I didn't see the cliffhanger from 410 coming at all so I wonder what that means for the larger story.. Got any theories?

Regarding endgame... honestly the last two chapters gave me a little anxiety. "This is our tale?" Too good to be true. Especially when we know from chapter one "this is a story of how I became a great hero". Also, I've had some thoughts since 406 about how their connection is being framed up which I haven't had time to write but it feels like a lot of fanservice for Horikoshi (and subsequent editors, etc) to not commit. Additionally, in all the ways this story subverts the typical formula for shonen, it would also feel like a fumbled opportunity to turn everything on its nose with such a wildly popular series. So I'm holding out hope but conservatively preparing for one of them to just... not make it even if we get a confession *shudders in Supernatural flashbacks*.

I hope this makes sense as I struggled to recommend stories where this wasn't the case when asked about BL. In my opinion, good representation in mainstream stories (gender identity, orientation, race, religion, disability, etc.) is when, whatever makes a character different isn't their whole identity. Specifically in the context of more traditional stories (not centered on BL for instance), they should be involved if not just as integral to the plot as any other character wherein their diversity isn't sticking out like a sore thumb. But even that characterization requires nuance which is what makes it so hard to articulate? Maybe it's simpler to say that their character arc shouldn't just be based around identity. As a short answer to your question, I don't think that SatoSugu is queerbaiting. I think they are authentically and intrinsically coded to one another in subtext and out loud straight from Akutami but that, sometimes, relationships don't work out or love is unrequited. They may not have had the same feelings despite their inherent complement to one another and that's okay.

As above, characters should be just as messy as real people and that's what makes what didn't happen between them all the more tragic because it's heartbreaking in how relatable it is (not the cult leading and murder though). Seems like a convenient answer from a delulu shipper unless you take into consideration how Kirara Hoshi's identity is given the same level of subtlety. They aren't defined by their identity nor are the characters jarred by some particularly grandiose reveal nor are they perturbed by the nature of their connection to Hikari. I'm by no means an expert but I think that these characters are executed well in the sense that they have a complexity that doesn't hinge on what would otherwise make them different. They aren't "othered", it's just a fact of who they are and the story continues. It's a facet of who they are without cheaply being all they are. With Gege Akutami's own pronouns not expressly confirmed, perhaps that informs the care around those with differing identities.

I haven't seen Tiger & Bunny yet but now I know what to check out next!

[lover-of-mine]

I think purposely bad. And made worst. Because Tim didn't expect between episode 4 and 5 that those shippers would create a whole new character that never existed. Or that on the side Lou would financially gain and feed them head canons. So now he's like look... Don't you see he sucks.

I actually truly believe the medal ceremony was supposed to be his last scene of the season, then come back for an Ana style break-up. If you look at it organically, there was no reason for the daddy joke scene, and we know he wasn't supposed to be there. I think it was to create an off-putting scene where if he chooses, he could do an off-screen break up and avoid queer baiting accusations.

Lou has already created too much tension. He could still do a break up within a few episodes, but I'm not sure if Tim wants to have the head aches Lou brings... Closing down his cameo is the only reason I think he could be back for a bit. But if that's the case, then he definitely had a meeting, you know.

Okay, first of all, this may sound mean and not trying to and this isn't targeted to you I just keep seeing queerbaiting allegations and you used the word, but Buck is queer, the queerbaiting ship has sailed, a queer storyline not going the way we expected is not queerbaiting. Whatever they do with Buck's love life, there is no queerbaiting just because it feels unsatisfying to us. They marketed Buck as queer and Buck is bi. Not liking the way it was done doesn't change that.

But on the Lou thing, I agree that they didn't plan on having Lou stick around for the whole season, but the relationship was better accepted than anticipated and they are capitalizing on it. Full conspiracy theory, but I think that with how Oliver refuses to talk about bt, and how Ryan changed his tune after 706, something happened behind the scenes that went against what they were told the beginning of the season, because again, a tv show is a living organism that needs to adapt to the circumstances in which is airing, bt brought audience, keep him around a bit longer. The kink scene was there to remind us of how bad Gerrard is, but we could've had that reminder happen with Chim or Hen, so yeah, he didn't have to be there, but keeping bt alive during the hiatus keeps the numbers up while giving shippers time to cool off. And considering the publicity that came with Buck being bi, if they are planning on eventually getting to buddie, they are probably anticipating a similar level of publicity to come from queer Eddie, so they spaced it out to get the most out of both arcs. Especially because queer Eddie has to mean canon buddie and that would break the internet. I don't blame Lou for trying to capitalize from the ship, it keeps him on the role longer and it is exposure, but obviously, there's controlled chaos brought on by the high of a confirmation that a character is queer and there's *gestures vaguely* whatever is going on. There is a chance T will get the Ali treatment, there's a chance he will get the Ana treatment, but there is also the chance he will get the Taylor treatment and stick around while being a bad match for Buck, we don't know the plan and we don't know if Lou created enough problems for them to want to write him off. T is being shown to us in a very specific way, but they can still turn it around if they chose to, because we don't know enough. He is in the same spot Taylor was during s4 so it will all depend on how he will be handled during s8. Sure fanon T is not the character that exists on the show and Lou's cameos probably were shut down because it was creating a level of expectation they didn't plan on delivering, but at this point it could still go in any direction, we can't say anything for sure.

[itsclydebitches]

On the topic of the Curious Cat: As an enby, I don't know how to feel about the fact that the first major characters in RWBY who were canonically enby were a) animals from a whole different world b) killed off in the same volume that introduced them.

Actually, no, I do know how I feel about that.

Little: A mouse who has, by their own admission, no purpose in life and thus swears to help the group on their quest... except they don't. No time is spent developing Little or demonstrating how they're beneficial as an ally. They're squashed to death by the villain during a pseudo-suicide scene and then magically reappear as a totally different person, which is presented as a good thing. They're left behind by the story, presumably never to be seen again.

Curious: A cat who is first presented as an annoyance that the group doesn't want to deal with, then as an outright villain who has been manipulating them this whole time. The story refuses to engage with the ways in which their situation is both relatable and sympathetic, instead having them suddenly gain the power of possession/physical transformation for a lackluster fight scene. They're torn apart by the illusion of another villain that only existed for one episode and, for obvious reasons, will likely never be seen again.

Yeah. I wonder why fans, particularly enby fans, would be unhappy with this representation...

You know, I've brought this up before but I think it's really important to keep in mind that RWBY is an ongoing series. Any representation that's introduced to the canon is, for a significant length of time, the only representation we have and that severely colors our feelings towards the show as a whole. Lately there have been some angry posts about people calling Blake/Yang queerbaiting and they're right, by definition it can't possibly be queerbaiting because they were made canon... but we thought it might be for several years. That's the criticism. The later you're introduced to RWBY and the more you have to binge watch, the less likely you are to understand the issue with these portrayals—especially with a fandom that will talk up what you have to look forward to if you just keep watching to X Volume. Why would I be upset with a stalker, villain lesbian when Saphron and Terra are so cute and just around the corner? Why would I think trans rep is an issue when Mae is arriving in Volume 7? How can anyone possibly claim that the queer rep is bad when the flagship, main character couple kissed on screen and I've already seen the beautiful, romantic GIFs of the moment? Putting aside other issues here (how long queer characters last, the lack of rep for men, etc.) fans ignore the staggeringly long time we were not only waiting for rep, but then waiting for what many would consider positive rep. For years all we had was a lesbian who wanted to kill the parents of the woman who didn't return her affections (notably with the implication that Blake was might be straight...) and a super duper minor character who isn't actually gay because they wanted to kill him off. For years all we had was Coco leering at women behind her sunglasses in the novels, or the hint of gay side-characters in other teams, while Blake and Yang continued a multi-Volume will-they-won't-they dance. For years we've had queer character appear for a few episodes only—the cute couple, the trans activist—before disappearing from the story because they're not important enough to make a core part of the tale. The fact that we have Blake/Yang now doesn't erase those feelings leading up to their canonization.

Now here we are again. "How can you be unhappy with the nonbinary rep?" someone might ask in a few years time, if RWBY continues and we've gotten another cute, minor, short-lived character who uses they/them pronouns. Well, it's because in 2023 everyone was waiting to see if the show would even return and in that uncertainty all we had for rep were two literal animals who were horrifically killed by the story and then left behind, one a full-fledged villain whose death we're meant to celebrate. I'm all for a diversity of representation—I'm by no means saying all your queer characters have to be heroes, or even decent people. I love me a queer villain—but when that's all you've currently got in a show that's struggled both with its rep on screen and its treatment of queer employees... it doesn't feel great.

[turnupswritessometimes]

Don't you think it's funny cause actual canon gay characters in BL manga will say "I love you" but only the shounen bromance can spew out some of the most romantic shit akin to a 19th century poet writing a letter expressing his surpressed love for his lover 😭.....

Some of the lines of shounen manga between two boys are insane, and definitely why they get themed promise jewellery, lmao

But on a serious note, I'd say its because of genre expectation. There's definitely a ~ vibe ~ around BL manga (the same as the vibe around yaoi) and what the audience expects from it and its characters. BL carries an atmosphere and connotation that Shoujo doesn't. It's kind of why I'm reluctant to actually explore it that much. (I keep almost starting Sasaki to Miyano, but the fact it is labelled BL kinda puts me off.)

In that light, I can see why things like Yoshida insisting Banana Fish isn't BL happen - especially around the time it was originally published. That being said, the love story is so intrinsically baked into Ash and Eiji's relationship that you can't not read it like that. (Not without a lot of effort.)

And I kind of prefer that to an 'I love you.' There's something about not saying it, and leaving it as subtext, that I enjoy more. Probably for the same reason at the 19th century poet - it means more. It's says more.

I've been Banana Fish centric, but the same applies to things like Vanitas no Carte and Moriarty the Patriot too. There's something special about not needing to say it outright.

Maybe that's just because I've been on tumblr for so long that queerbaiting and subtext is what I'm most used to, and, honestly, get a little nostalgic for.

I hope all of that makes sense?

[usercelestial]

i have complicated feelings about where the word queerbait leads us in current time. we're a long way from where we started with tumblr's big queerbaits. there are a lot more shows with real queer rep now, queer characters are becoming more and more normalized. which means now, when we have a show full of queer characters, they're going to be subjected to some of the same bad writing or baiting that any straight character could. i don't keep up with the press or the marketing, so i can't say for sure what exactly nandermo was being presented as, but as the fandom's Big Ship i'm sure it was being pushed quite a bit. i don't think it's fair to call it queerbaiting when, historically, that's been used to say they're promising queerness and not delivering. the queerness of the show was present the whole time. i understand why people are upset, even if i've never approached the show with a nandermo lens, but i think it's hard to have a conversation when everyone seems to be operating with completely different ideas of what queerbaiting is.

i absolutely get this perspective, queerbaiting has a very long and complicated history. i think where I lie with nandermo is that the show recognizes the potential of the ship and understands it gets traction and marketing potential from it, a really egregious example of this is promoting the season with guillermo and nandor edited into The Bodyguard poster. personally i don't think it's that big of a deal, i figured they were playing it up for promotion and weren't planning on following through with it because the show isn't a romantic comedy, it's just comedy that has a theme of things never really changing but even if you didn't expect it to happen i understand why it's frustrating that ship was never taken seriously but was used as promotional material. i think paul simms comments about it being problematic and not wanting to pervert the relationship also contributed to people being pissed off because obviously the entire show is problematic if you want to get into semantics, najda literally hypnotized laszlo into sleeping with her and they have literally fucked on screen as bats, so people took those comments as very homophobic because obviously you let the man and the women get freak nasty and be in love (and allow for gay sex scenes of minor characters for laughs (not judgement)) but when it comes to the relationship between two male main characters, suddenly a romance plotline is perverted and problematic because of power dynamics. it feels a little like he just didn't want to commit to a permanent on screen relationship between them.

i think when it comes to nandermo, we need to purge the word queerbait from the discourse because you're right, no one can seem to settle on one solid definition. i think the arguments of "they were acknowledged by canon" + "the show has queer characters" are equally as reasonable as "relationships between two men don't seem to be taken as seriously as the ones between a man and a woman" + "the one relationship between two men is hinted at and joked about but is never pushed further" and to be honest, i think all of these opinions need to coexist because this show DOES have good queer rep, its fun and silly and light hearted, i enjoy the fact that we get nasty gay sex scenes occasionally and it's treated as a normal or even encouraged act, it's very unapologetic and real HOWEVER that doesn't mean it's immune to treating the queerness of these characters and the relationships they have as less than or using them as surface level marketing. we should always be pushing for more and better, even if we have what we asked for.

[sunflowerdigs]

So, I can't in good faith complain about the Succession trailers being 90% made up of cut scenes because, if I'm honest, the only reason I'm really upset about that is because of the cut Mencken scenes, which I was really looking forward to (and Tabitha!).

However, I feel like I need to say something about the Tomgreg stuff because it's been bothering me.

As a disclaimer, I hate Tomgreg. Truly. I blocked the tag earlier this year. Imo, it's an example of people taking a relationship based primarily in toxic masculinity and kind of transposing queerness into it as a reaction to the lack of actual queerness on the show. And I hate that tendency a lot. However, I'm also not the arbiter of which dynamics and characters people read as queer. And, clearly, a ton of people disagree with me. And for that reason, the reluctance to call out the marketing team for basically by definition queerbaiting with Tomgreg because they're technically not connected to the writing of the series is...Not Good to me. Because it kinda gives networks carte blanche to do that in the future with actual queer storylines and excuse it by saying that the marketing team wasn't aware of what the writing team were doing, they just wanted to sell a product. I can see a world where queer storylines become more and more cynically used for marketing purposes only, and aren't put into the text of shows or movies (or are added in sloppy, homophobic ways). And that's...not a great outcome.

It's tricky with Succession because it's just such a great show that you won't get very far criticizing anything about it. Black people have criticized its use of rap/hiphop music when there are zero black characters for years and those complaints have mostly fallen on deaf ears. Plus, tomgreg was never going to happen and there's also a really compelling reason for their dynamic drying up (it was 95% about power, not love or genuine caring, and in s4, they got that power).

However, as a closing thought, it's worth considering the huge difference between the way that Romangerri (which is in a similar spot) and Tomgreg were advertised for s4. They deliberately backed off Romangerri - they cooled the advertising for them right down to almost nothing prior to s4. Kieran and JSC haven't done a single interview together, I don't think. And there were almost no shots of them together on the red carpet. And I think they did that because the marketing team knew that falsely advertising a straight couple that straight people were excited about would get them in trouble (with critics who liked that couple, at the very least). However, at the same time, they ramped up the marketing for Tomgreg so hard that I was genuinely worried it might actually happen (Jesse is crazy, you know?). And I think they did that because, at the end of the day, queer feelings aren't particularly real for them. Queer couples and characters exist primarily to add color to the fictional worlds that straight people inhabit. And until that changes...more of this crap is bound to happen. It's a concern when straight people might be disappointed; queer people cannot be disappointed because our existence in fiction is mostly a joke anyway.

I guess my point in writing this is just to say that, although I loathe Tomgreg, I understand the desire for actual queer characters on a show as rare as Succession. I get how powerful that desire can become. And while I'm personally glad that their relationship isn't what shippers may have wanted, I understand also how the marketing for the show exacerbated those wants, and I'm sympathetic.