#john and mary grayson

[puimoo]

Abusive John and Mary Grayson

You know what? In light of both the most recent Batman and Robin year 1 Batman and Robin Year 1 chapter and December's Batman: The Long Halloween - The Last Halloween chapter?

There are some versions of canon!John and Mary Grayson where they are actually, absolutely, abusive and exploitive parents. Where his parents had Dick training for 10 hours a day since he was three, where he's been performing full-time since he was 5, where enough people in the circus knew he was being groomed for the Court of Owls. Where his parents (or at least, John) cared more about either the thrill of the crowd/earning more money than he did the safety of his own son.

And, I know I say this every month or so, but circuses were terribly exploitive already of child acrobats, and I always felt that the Court of Owls was in part a parallel to the child trafficking that went on there.

Interestingly, John and Mary are held up as the gold standard of parents by others, in a similar way that Dick is held up as the gold standard as Robin. And yet, so many of those damaging personality traits that Dick has can be so easily traced back to his relationship with his parents.

What I love about Halloween is that it doesn't just talk about Dick's experiences pre-Bruce, but dares suggest that it actually wasn't healthy for Dick. I would even go so far as to say that there is almost an edge of fear in how Dick talks about his father.

I want so much for the darker side of the Graysons to be explored, even if just via fandom. Give me a John Grayson who is a punishing, unrelenting father who doesn't tolerate less than 100% commitment and perfectionism. A Mary who gets isolated from her own friends and loses herself in the fantasy of the Flying Grayson family at the expense of her son. A Dick who is 8 and has just lost everything, and who sees his parents through rose-colored glasses and the circus as a family instead of the exploitive business it was because he is a child. Give me the perfect Grayson family as a deliberately crafted marketing strategy, rather than an actuality. And. Give me other people in Dick's life who think, actually? His childhood was really fucked up.

There's a really interesting line in Halloween where Dick says that Bruce didn't just save his life, he gave him one. Most versions of Bruce in canon strive (at least initially) to give Dick a childhood, and it is Dick who always tries to push for more - who doesn't feel comfortable doing less. Bruce puts more importance on Dick being a child than some versions of Mary and John ever did.

... I might have to give a particular fic that is currently sitting in my 'too hard' basket another go.

[thesulkycroissant]

The Bloodbourne comic sets the stage for the suggestion that, for a vast number of years, Bruce has been going to John and Mary Grayson's graves on the anniversary of their death to leave flowers. He goes personally. Just imagining what Bruce might have said as he stood at their graves every year.

When he and Dick were estranged?

After another child died wearing their colors?

After he let a third child put on their colors anyway?

What do you say to the people who gave you the greatest gift of your life, the one thing that you are the most proud of, your legacy, the person who is everything you wanted to be and more? How do you acknowledge that this incredible gift came to you as a result of their spilled blood?

Is thank you adequate? Is it even acceptable?

Is I'm sorry adequate? Could it ever be?

[magnetothemagnificent]

Behold.....

[id in alt text]

[ahsokatroi]

I’m sure I’m not the only one who actually considers it, but the consideration doesn’t make its way into a lot of posts/fics.

Dick lost his parents. Like yeah, we all know that. But a lot of writers like to treat it as though he was always meant to be Bruce’s son and losing his actual parents was akin to losing a pet: sad but not super important.

John and Mary Grayson raised Dick until he was 9 years old. They taught him to read. They soothed him after nightmares. They celebrated his first steps. They brought him a cake with candles every birthday. They laughed and played and snuggled when he woke them up by jumping into their bed in the morning. They kissed his knee when he scraped it. They held his legs up when he was first learning to do a handstand. They hugged him every chance they got.

Writers often focus on the abrupt change in lifestyle going from the circus to the manor, but they don’t focus on the people Dick lost. The bed was too big with just him. The room was too quiet without his parent’s snores. Breakfast was too quiet without their loud voices. The gymnastics mat was too scary without their reassurances. He was too cold without their constant hugs. Yes, he had Alfred and Bruce, but he was too lonely without the familiar comfort of his parents. Breakfast was wrong. Praise and discipline were wrong. Training was wrong. Medical treatment was wrong. Comfort was wrong.

Dick lost everything the night his parents died. And that’s something a lot of writers tend to gloss over.

[lexxieannie]

something about how bruce and dicks parents are named after such biblical foils. martha and mary, martha being distracted by the smaller details of preparation while mary is favored by Christ for sitting and listening. thomas and john, the disciple who doubted Christ and the one who was His beloved. does this mean anything to anyone? didn’t think so.

[thelibrarian1895]

Bat bio donors

So Catherine Todd, unfortunately, wasn't Jason's bio mom, even if she was his mom in every other way that matters. Embezzler, child trafficker, and Joker associate Shelia Haywood was his biological mother...probably.

There was no DNA test so I remain unconvinced.

That being said, I see no acceptable evidence that Willis Todd was Jason's bio father. (And if there is, shhh, don't care)

Yes Bruce could be his bio dad but boring, be more creative!

For example, someone else who's based in Gotham, who might have a fling and not follow up on it for very whatever reason, and who might be the namesake of our favorite gun wielding bat: Jason Bood. Yes Shelia, if she is the mother, may have put Willis on the birth certificate, but there's nothing to say that she didn't have an evening with a man with a charming accent, considerable experience, and a rather two faced nature.

Or perhaps someone who is a tiny bit less volatile such as David Cain.

Or honestly there's enough weirdness in Gotham that Jason's other bio donor was Nocturna, the woman who would later want to adopt him while he was Robin and she was, in fact, though she didn't know it, trying to get her own bio child.

Furthermore, Bruce as Tim Drake's bio donor, yes, good, understandable, likely even.

However, there are other options, for example:

Janet spends a great deal of time going around the world and with various artifacts, some of these artifacts could be magical in nature. That magic may have various effects on the average person and one of the more popular things that people in ancient times sought revolved around fertility control, to improve or prevent. Janet might trip over more than a few artifacts designed to improve fertility, let's say even to the point that some who might not normally be able to sire children might in fact be capable of doing so with Janet while she's still under the influence of such magic, such as:

Lady Shiva who admires Janet's ability to handle both a growing business and her academic pursuits.

Ra's Al Ghul who came by for an artifact and had a fling with the lady who found it mostly because why not? Yes if Tim ever found out, or Ra's ever found out, it would result in considerable mental distress, but it could also be hilarious. Flip a coin to decide if this would make Talia want Tim dead more or less than she already does.

Some ancient god who's essentially mortal at this point and has been clinging to existence by the thinnest thread and really the only reason their name is known at this point is because it was in a letter about very bad copper. Tim receives no benefits from this parent except above average endurance and healing which is how he's survived. He's also as stubborn as the nameless god that's hung on for four thousand or so years.

Gotham itself is Tim's bio donor and this is why tiny baby stalker Tim didn't die a thousand times over while he was taking pictures, Gotham was looking out for their son.

Then there's Cassandra, "one who is all" who may or may not be Shiva's daughter.

Honestly for Shiva and for Talia, given the danger they put themselves in and the stress that pregnancy can do to a body, plus the necessary time to heal properly afterwards, the canon where Damian is grown in a tube makes sense and I wouldn't be surprised if Shiva took a page from Talia's book.

Shiva as the mother of "one who is all" can make sense. The other bio donor, well, let's look at other options.

Slade perhaps? He's had quite a few remarkable children, and can handle none of them, but that wouldn't stop him from being a candidate.

If you're a fan of wuxia or xianxia novels, look for or make up some ancient cultivator that Shiva sought out for training perhaps and on that strength Cassandra can pick up cultivation and become that much more awesome, maybe even teach it to her brothers.

Honored Immortal Cass

Or someone can be related to or connected to a Lamont Crantson and see if they can step out of his Shadow.

Dick's bio parents were freakin' awesome so jumping over him and also leaving Duke's parentage alone though more distant ancestors for either of them, such as great-great grandmothers or grandfathers might be interesting. Dick has a Talon in the family tree but who else might be hanging around in there?

For example, Santa is real in the dc universe. Tim and his team could have witnessed the death of Dick's maternal great-great-great-great grandpa.

As for Duke, if his family has been in Gotham for longer than a generation, there've got to be some serious weirdos in his bloodline, maybe a lesser known Talon or Queen Mab.

Damian not being the son of Bruce and Talia would be a serious blow to the kid and not worth it. Giving him blood siblings is more fun. He already has a problem learning to share his dad with his adopted siblings, sharing with blood siblings would be good for him.

Stephanie? An additional dad option would probably give her some sort of mental crisis since she originally based her vigilante career on defeating her deadbeat, second rate rogue father. It would be interesting and honestly a little hilarious though if her mother had a fling with Oliver Queen.

[renta-bat]

Nightwing #118 (finale)

AUAGGAUGGAUGH

[avayarising]

Honestly I think they would think Bruce is possibly the only person who could have turned Dick out so well.

That little boy loved the act; he loved the flying, the adrenaline rush, going out there every night; he loved doing good and helping and making people happy. He also had aggression and a love for violence and a superb intellect that needed to be exercised. John and Mary knew these things.

Imagine if the foster system had worked and Dick had been taken in by another, not-Batman family. Imagine, too, that this family is understanding and supportive. Reasonably wealthy, not millionaire/billionaire level but comfortably off enough to provide well for him. Imagine they help him work past his anger and grief.

Dick would get gymnastics lessons way below his level twice a week, he would compete in local events and move up to the regionals. If his new foster family had the money and were sufficiently enthusiastic, he might get a decent coach, make it onto the international scene and eventually the Olympics. Which wouldn’t harness his intellect or his aggression or fulfil his desire to help people. He’d be happy enough, I suppose.

It’s at least as likely that he would get less encouragement than that, and his aerialist skills would moulder, and he would certainly not have any chandeliers to swing from. He would be bored and unhappy at best.

Now imagine he is placed in a more mediocre household. Not given the attention and understanding he needs. Told to stop jumping on the furniture. He gets into fights at school, acts out at home. Perhaps he lets out his frustrations in violence, or drugs. Or perhaps he still dons a costume and goes out to fight crime, inspired by Batman from a distance, and, without guidance or training, gets killed.

Imagine if he had stayed in the circus, if there had been someone there to take him in, if the authorities had allowed it. He continues his parents’ trapeze act, learns to work with whatever new aerialists the circus hires, if he can, if they let him; goes through the motions, learns to live with his grief. It might work out. It might not.

Dick himself said he wouldn’t change a thing – wouldn’t bring his parents back and lose what he had gained through Bruce: the support of someone who truly understands, a chance to turn all his skills to something more than just a performance, the skills to make a real difference in the world, a steadfast group of friends, and, eventually, a full family.

And, for all those things, John and Mary are grateful to Bruce.

Do you ever think about how Dick loves Bruce so much but that John and Mary Grayson would probably be horrified by Bruce's everything.

[caffeinatedvigilantewriter]

After dani left amity to travel the world, she thought the best way would be to join a traveling circus.

Haley’s Circus

So she joins the performers as a trapeze artist (she used her flight to help her)

Very quickly, the Graysons end up taking her under their wings, and help her with her stunts. Dick was 7 when she joined their little family.

Dick was eight when he watched her die.

Dani was a quicker learner, so on that fateful day, she went up in the platform with John and Mary and fell to her death 20 seconds later.

But halfas never truly die, do they?

She wakes up in a body bag and phases out with invisible.

After some light research, she finds out that Dick is being fostered by a Billionaire and decides that Dick would be safer with Wayne than with her, so she leaves, coming back to check in him every birthday and death day of his parents.

In the meantime, Dani took a detour to the Infinite Realms and found John and Mary, explained who she really was and updated them on Dick regularly.

Dick never mentioned her to anyone, and Bruce never brought her up and Dick went the next 15 years without seeing Dani, and eventually, she became a distant memory until he caught a glimpse of her while on a mission with his family.

Dani was now around 28, and the GIW had finally caught up to her. Just when she thought she was about to die, the Agent got body slammed by Nightwing, a confused Red Hood and Red Robin following him.

[seilnakyle]

The Boy Wonder (2024) #1

[puimoo]

Thoughts on Batman: The Long Halloween - The Last Halloween Chapter 4: Dick's relationship with both of his fathers, the realities of circus life, and flying without a net.

A little while ago, I touched on how I wished we got a more nuanced version of Dick's parents and his time pre-Bruce. In particular, I talked about how there was something inherently selfish about his parents involving their son in an act that didn't use a net that I couldn't quite let go of, and how some of those negative character traits that Dick has that Bruce is often blamed for could have originated from his time pre-Bruce.

Which is why I am absolutely in love with the latest chapter of Batman: The Long Halloween - The Last Halloween, which surprised me by delving a bit more into Dick's relationship with John Grayson.

All the things the chapter discussed/hinted at that I loved:

The adultification of Dick at a young age, where he is performing multiple shows a day (including on Christmas Day, because his father thinks it is important to entertain other children at the expense of his own), has significant responsibilities beyond his age, and feels solely responsible for whether the people in his life live or die.

A discussion of how John Grayson leans deliberately in the 'death-defying' nature of not having a net because it draws bigger crowds. This idea that people didn't come to see The Graysons fly but to see them die was such a big moment for me, and why the lack of a net has always been something I get stuck on. We don't know why having bigger crowds at the expense of the safety of his family is so important to John - be it because of the atmosphere, being the center of it all, the money it brings in (etc), but I love how it horrifies Dick a little. It makes me think of the Coliseum in ancient Rome, where the audience sits in anticipation of bloodshed.

In light of the above, involving Dick in their act takes on an even darker edge. The only thing more exciting than potentially seeing John or Mary die? Potentially seeing an 8-year-old die. This feels as much of a deliberate choice by John as not having a net in general. How else do you attract even bigger crowds? Roll up, roll up! Come watch the show and an 8-year-old maybe fall to his death for your pleasure!

When Alfred is dismissive, cold, irritated, and abrupt with Dick (while worried about Bruce), Dick compares that behaviour with how his own father treated him, in particular around his work responsibilities.

All the above leads to this fantastic contrast between Dick and John, and what flying without a net means to each of them. For John, he flies without a net because it could mean death (and that excites and draws in the crowd). For Dick, he chooses to fly without a net to save Bruce (and he does it alone, in the dark, with no audience). For both, it is a deliberate choice. For both, flying without a net comes at a cost. John and Mary died due to John's decision, and the Calendar Man is going to break free because of Dick's.

In general, I LOVED how the chapter gently challenges the status quo of what life was like both before and after Dick lost his parents, and instead has Dick saying that Bruce didn't simply save his life, but gave him one. If you envision Dick as someone who is basically <i>working</i> in the circus as a child, 7 days a week, multiple shows a day, dealing with adult responsibilities in a likely non-child friendly environment (because circus' were terrible places for children, but in particular for acrobatic children who underwent grueling training to be able to do the kinds of things that Dick was able to). Bruce gives him Christmas and holidays, he gives him school and mathletes and basketball and friendships, computers and chemistry and options. He restricts his Robin hours to the weekend when he is younger, because Dick being a <i>child</i> is important to Bruce. This chapter is, at its heart, a contrast between the two father figures in Dick's life, and I'm so pleased that Bruce gets some of his dues for once. It doesn't negate at all that his parents didn't also give him so much as well, but that Bruce has his own, incredibly important impact on Dick growing up.

One of the things I also loved about the chapter was how odd it actually feels. It feels like Dick is narrating a Christmas fairytale, but what is interesting here is that the fairytale is about Bruce and not about Dick himself. There is something almost childish about Bruce's situation - that fairytale aspect, being woken basically by true love's kiss - while Dick is living through a nightmarish situation in contrast, caught up in death and fear and desperation. Even when Bruce wakes up and Dick hugs him, Bruce barely acknowledges him or what he has done, and the plot itself doesn't start advancing again until after Dick leaves. There is something interestingly weird about how Bruce thanks Alfred and heads off with Selina but doesn't acknowledge Dick, but it makes sense when you view the chapter as having been narrated by Dick up until that point, and who maybe doesn't quite see himself as part of the fairytale.

So! lots of thoughts about the chapter!

[eldritchdemonfox]

why does everyone seem obsessed with making the batkid’s bio parents either an afterthought or worse than they actually are?

I mean, in some cases they did actually have bad parents, like Arthur Brown and David Cain

But like…

Stephanie’s mom is still alive and they have a pretty good relationship.

Duke’s parents are still alive, albeit comatose. He loves them.

Tim’s parents were not as criminally neglectful as fannon makes them out to be, and it really impacted him when they died.

Dick’s parents are the REASON he chose Robin as his name, and he still misses them.

While Willis Todd wasn’t a great father, he did at least want a better life for Jason in some cannons. And Catherine did the best she could. The only person really deserving of hate is Sheila. Fuck her fr.

Shiva might not be a good mother, but she and Cass actually have a weirdly positive relationship.

TALIA TRIED HER FUCKING BEST FOR DAMIAN AND SHE IS NOT A RAPIST

Babs LITERALLY STILL HAS A DAD. WHO SHE LOVES. Justice for my man Gordon.

I mean CMON

[faramirsonofgondor]

AU where Mary and John Grayson come back to life (through magic or some other weird thing idk) and come to the wrong conclusions about the Batfam. Like as soon as they come back they’re transported into the manor where Alfred is just like “Oh dear!” and then walks in Dick, dressed as Batman, with Damian, in full Robin gear (this is when everybody thought Bruce was dead). And Dick’s parents recognize him immediately, and they just kind of roll with it cuz what the hell. And then they turn their attention to Damian (who they heard Dick call “Robin” and who is dressed in their family colors) and they’re just like “aww, a grandson”. And Dick is too in shock to correct them and so he has to roll with it. And then over time Mary and John meet more of the fam and their alter egos but they think that they’re all just apart of the circus and not crime fighting vigilantes because circus performers would be the most obvious conclusion. They’re also under the impression that Dick just built this family himself because it’s not like Bruce is around and Dick always wanted siblings, didn’t he? And like none of the Batfam has the heart to correct them on anything because while Dick can be annoying sometimes, none of them want to mess this up for him. Plus, it was nice to have some adults who had healthy coping mechanisms and stuff. Eventually it becomes harder and harder to keep the charade and they start to bet on who will get caught first.

John: You know you carry an awful lot of guns for someone in the circus. What did you say you do?

Jason, sweating: …..Security

John, who literally died at the circus: Oh, that’s nice. Wish we had that back in the day.

Mary: You know, it’s been a few months of us being back, and I’d love to see you all perform sometime.

Tim, running on two hours of sleep: Uh… you can’t because…… our shows are all sold out!

Mary: Oh, well that’s lovely dear. It’s a shame we can’t go, though.

Eventually, though, the rest of the Batfam start to relax and get closer to Mary & John. Then, funnily enough, it’s Dick “Trauma Is My Middle Name” Grayson who accidentally lets the truth slip during one of his sleep deprived hallucination sessions, in which he believes that Mary and John are also hallucinations and starts ranting about being Batman and such. Mary and John were already able to tell that Dick had been hiding something and that he had trauma because they’re not blind, but they didn’t expect this. But whatever reaction the Batfam was expecting, it wasn’t Mary and John’s slightly disappointed frowns as they exclaimed “So you don’t work for the circus? 🙁” because they had been really looking forward to catching a show eventually.

Bonus: Mary and John figured out that Jason was Red Hood before Dick spilled the beans, but they were just like “Wow! He works as Red Hood and security? He must be great at his job!”

[somewherefornow]

DICK GRAYSON/NIGHTWING + THE MURDERS OF THE GRAYSONS & THE WAYNES in NIGHTWING (1996)

[slipperywhenwet0o0]

The day dick was born was the first warm day of spring. Mary’s labour finished right around dawn and the first thing she heard just before dick started crying was the birds morning song.

[geneticdriftwood]

persephone's in hell; a rooftop conversation

for @mysterycitrus

persephone's in hell, @mysterycitrus // white winter hymnal, fleet foxes // assorted dc comics