#it's not like more than half the writers weren't there for s2 no no it's all planned guys

[a-confused-spoon]

"Arcane was always about love" very very close! It just featured loving characters and relationships, which isn't the same!

It was actually about how "love and legacy are the sacrifices we make for progress" as reflected by Silco's monster ideology to achieve independence and the Council constantly neglecting Zaun, twin sister city of Piltover, for prestige on the bigger picture, and on a minor scale how Jinx had to let go of the idea of Vi's love to fully embrace her potential, and Jayce focusing more on what he can do as a councilor instead of as a scientist (his legacy) and with Viktor (who he loves), and Ekko being unable to let go of his love for Powder even if for the sake of moving forward in the battle against Silco, and Mel having to choose between her love for her mom and the peace pact that Jayce puts on the table for the sake of both cities, and Vi not understanding that destroying Silco and his empire would've driven the sister she loves so dearly away- y'know, it was an ever present thing (as core themes usually are I believe) around which the rest of the themes were written (class divide, found family etc).

And what the story tackled with said core theme was specifically - I can't stress this enough - how hard it is to make that choice because there's not an obvious answer and it's not the same one for every case, especially when there are consequences outside the one's personal sphere, which was exactly why every decision the characters made drove the story forward.

But yes, if you were to transfer the "didn't he try to kill you?" / "Sometimes the best thing we can do is to forgive :D" exchange from s2 to any point in time of s1 it would sounds absolutely natural and reasonable within the context of the story because you should be able to find it you to forgive those who wronged you in the name love- or love conquers all or whatever it is that you mean with "arcane was always about love"- was certainly always the point.

...fyi I'm not saying that s2 can't or shouldn't be enjoyed for what it is (as I know I partly did before taking a step back and questioning a couple things), I'm just saying it made the show lose track of its center point and I think it's something worth noting.

[gamegirlx]

HEAR HEAR!!! LMK S5 SPOILERS!

i, as an individual human being with free speech, have just finished the fifth season of monkie kid, thus i have THOUGHTS that must be shared.

OK BUT TO QUICKLY ACKNOWLEDGE WHAT PEOPLE HAVE BEEN WORRYING ABOUT FOR THE LONGEST TIME- THE ANIMATION.

it's... ok!

if anything, I GOTTA SAY, they are doing they're best! and it shows!

like okay, ofc the older seasons get better animation but like bro YOU GOTTA GIVE IT TO THIS ANIMATION STUDIO for sOmEwhAt keeping up with the animation!

One of the things I noticed is how they actually improve aimating the characters throughout the episodes, and that's pretty epic!

NOW, i wanna address the writing of s5!

It takes a moment of pondering and such for me to cooperate my thoughts into a neat paragraph of words but ALRIGHT-

The concept IS GREAT. The execution??? eh.

the first half of the show was OK, nothing more, nothing less.

the SECOND HALF of the show, now, they were cooking some really epic scenes, interesting concepts, damn good character interactions that *COULD'VE*, i say, COULD'VE been good, IF ONLY THE PACING was better.

here are some random nitpicks i have:

goofy ahh medusa monkie kid oc villian reveal was underwhelming, bruh- NOW HE'S COOL AND ALL, bro's got the sassiest voice ever oh fOR REAL THOUGH, BUT maaaannnn, he def could've used WAY MORE BUILDUP in the first five episodes of the season

that one samadhi fire episode with red son and mei was unneccesary, i think it exists just for dragonfruit content but in term's of shipping, the interactions between mei and red son weren't even that fluffy or romantic. :(

there are quite a few loopholes and, like, exxagerated moments that could've been fixed if the writers just paid more attention to, like ehhhhhh, u'll see moments here and now where the characters are kinda dumb for not doing this or that, etc

the writing and climaxes in past seasons were DEFINETLY better than season six, but okay lemme just say tho, maybe im coping real hard but HEAR ME OUT !!!

SEASON FIVE IS GOOD ENOUGH.

Ya'll shouldn't ghost this season just because the animation looks worse.

This is kinda like a Monkie Kid S1 situation, in which the show was still finding it's animation groove and the story was still in it's early cooking stages but LOOK AT WHERE S1 GOT US (psst psst s2-s4 were FIRE.)

IN MY HUMBLE OPINION,

i believe that the story buildup for the upcoming sEASON SIX of monkie kid will be fricking epic.

ah aH AH- NOT TO MENTION that the animators will inevitably improve, too!

I SAY, GUYS, instead of dumping this show and roasting it for it's so-so season 5, i say we support the team and the show! Let's show the cast and crew that monkie kid is WORTH investing the time into making better! BECAUSE MONKIE KID IS A GREAT ANIMATED SHOW.

AND LIKE GUYS i haven't even mentioned the silly little stuff i like about this show!

(those will be for future rants fr)

NEVERTHELESS. i've stated my case. please spread the word that SEASON FIVE OF MONKIE KID SHOULD BE WATCHED.

and i thank you.

[justin-chapmanswers]

hello there! love your work :) i'm wondering how much you personally contributed to bot's backstory, and however much that may be, what you think of it - why do you think the decision was made to have bot be created by test tube and fan, as opposed to some other entity? the pair had already gotten an arc in ii2 about learning not to project their desires onto a child figure (fan's egg) so it's interesting that the same was done with them again in ii3. my love of the season is not really diminished by that decision (i still absolutely love ii3!!!) but it has bugged me haha :'D but anyway, i hope you're doing well!! thank you and have a lovely day <3

- clover anon

Hihi, love the question. Honestly, while I did contribute a bit to the Bot backstory, I'll say I had a lil less to do with it than a couple other writers. It's an element I've been excited about since we got some momentum on it conceptually, but since it's not my baby I can't give suuuuper definitive answers here.

We started with the character's existence before the backstory. "Bow has the votes, what now?" The initial thought was "welp, Purgatory Mansion'd, that's that. Who's next-up on the list?" I wouldn't wanna meddle with her s2 story by suddenly making her able to be a part of the competition. There was strong-enough pushback on this that we decided to consider our options and come to a fun compromise. Robot was pitched, and it opened up a lot of options, and we wanted to have a fairly firm grasp on which we'd run with before we wrote episode one.

To your question, there was debate on what element of the world Bot would fall under. Meeple-made was considered. Contestant-made was considered. And some additional options. Ultimately, we landed on the direction that'd keep Invitational's story a little more grounded and character-focused, which was an early goal, and kept it as a personal story between the contestants.

The Meeple option was, of course, very alluring. So-much-so that half the community was guessing that Bot was Meeple-related. Might've been the obvious conclusion based on how we've set up our lore thus far (not that I think this would necessarily be a negative, so long as the execution is strong). Besides this, we still have a lot to hit on with Meeple and we weren't looking to complicate it. It felt like a breath of fresh air to us to explore a mini-mystery that didn't tie back to where our past ones have.

While, again, I didn't add as much to the story of Bot's creation as others, I do think it's nice to let Test Tube take a lead in the story as opposed to Fan. In season two with Egg, it was largely a Fan story that Test Tube would step into. Here, it was fun exploring Test Tube get so caught up in the excitement of creation for the sake of creation that she didn't connect the dots on how her creation may not experience that same excitement. It felt like a nice evolution of where we left her off, now that she's better-equipped to empathize, while also giving her a story that directly hinges on everything she's prided herself on since the start of the show. But I totally get how the parallels to season two's story with Baby Shimmer could lead anyone to feel that we're treading similar ground.

I think that one of the most notable differences is that the story of Bot is Bot's story. I enjoyed the lil mystery and all, but to me the element I've been most excited about has been allowing Bot to have a pleasant time being themself and existing in a way that feels freeing to them. I had made some pitches early-on in the conceptualization of Bot that were more baked-into the pre-established lore, and would tie them more closely with Bow, but honestly I couldn't be happier with where we landed, because my originally route wouldn't make it easy to tell a story about Bot NOT being Bow, and this has meant a lot to me.

More to come!

[snorlaxlovesme]

thoughts and feelings about the Netflix's Live Action Avatar, now that I've finished:

overall, net positive! as i said in my previous post about the first 3 episodes [x], i'm someone who goes into adaptations with minimal expectations, treating it more like fanfiction, so I can spend more time enjoying myself than being a butthurt baby, so with that in mind i can say that I enjoyed myself a lot! there are episodes that i'm actually really excited to rewatch (5 and 6 are bangers and i won't be told otherwise)

i'm not going to lie and claim that any of the actors will be winning Daytime Emmys, but there were a few standout performances for me at least:

-Zuko was incredible. i love the way this version leaned into Zuko's desperation to capture the Avatar, because now he finally had a real chance of being able to come home after all these years. his acting pre- and post-Agni Kai in the flashbacks felt so sincere. his optimism was adorable before the war meeting and his shattered expression after Ozai banished him was fucking heartbreaking.

-i really loved the boy who played Aang. he was so charming and cute! and i think as the episodes went along he gradually got better at displaying more subtle emotion. for such a young child actor i thought he was doing amazing

-Sokka's actor was putting in work in the back half! i was impressed! the first half of the show I was pretty neutral about Sokka's acting but the more development he got the more I appreciated what his actor was bringing to the table. i think he just needed to be paired with the right acting partners in a scene to bring out the best of his abilities. Katara didn't give him much to work off of, but his scenes with Sai and Yue really hit

-Zhao was great too! they really re-worked his character to be a lot more important from the jump and i loved seeing how underhanded he was being during all of Zuko's quest. normally seeing Zhao on-screen just annoys me but i loved this version and how patronizing he was to Zuko

-idk man every time Gyatso was on screen I was crying. that's just how it is. every time i saw his face it felt like a warm hug

i think the weird part of this adaptation is that the parts that were adapted were pretty mid (or sometimes just bad) in a lot of cases, but whenever they added in their own original ideas it really shined! i feel like that's not the case with a lot of adaptation, people want to see what they know, but honestly if they added in more of their own original writing in s2 I would not be mad because i loved what these writers were bringing to the table (for the most part)

-i've already said that the way they structured ep 1 to include the start of the war was awesome. that was a cool change to show the audience from the jump that they weren't planning on boring everyone with a one-to-one(but worse) adaptation. it also set the tone really well bc my GOD do firebenders be setting people on fire in this show

-big fan of the early inclusion of Kyoshi and the idea that Aang can only convene with past Avatars at their temples. that was not a Hard Rule in the original and it always felt weird to me that sometimes he needed to be at a certain place on a certain day to communicate with his past lives but then in the finale he just had to meditate wherever he was. but yeah, they used Kyoshi lore from the novels and did indeed lose my mind about it

-Zuko and the 41st division. that was SUCH a cool storyline that was woven in starting at episode ONE and i was genuinely impressed with how hard it hit. i didn't see that coming and it had me CRYINGGGG. so yeah, BIG thumbs up for that original storyline. and also they inclusion of the post-Agni Kai Zuko recovering in the hospital and getting banished for claiming that maybe the weak just need the opportunity to get strong. heartbreaking, devastating on its own (Zuko's actor truly was killing me, i loved him so much) but once we see Zuko and Azula start going toe-to-toe next season that line will hurt me even more

-the bonding moment about calligraphy between Aang and Zuko was a really good bait and switch. in the original Blue Spirit episode Zuko didn't talk to Aang at all before firing at him. i like that i was expecting it to play out the same way as before but instead they had a moment of connection before Aang triggered Zuko and all potential for empathy was lost.

-which seems like a good time to address Zuko's character. i want to be clear when i say that i liked something because it was different from the original, it doesn't mean that i like it BETTER than the original. i simply think the new version is fun fanfiction that was written better than i expected. so when i say i like how they dealt with Zuko's obsession with honor, i'm in no way implying it's superior to the original. simply a good different

-anyways. in the original, Zuko's obsession with honor is fully connected to his need to be wanted by his father again. OZAI is the only one who can restore it, and it can only be restored by completing an impossible task for him. in the Netflix version it almost seems like Zuko's honor is tied to the disillusion that the Fire Nation itself is honorable. the bit about Lieutenant...Yi? sorry i'm getting his name wrong, but Lieutenant Yi gossiping about a superior officer, Zuko's disbelief that the Fire Nation would ever use such underhanded tactics like planting spies in Omashu, it was clear to me that Zuko bought into a rigid sense of morality and honor when it came to the Fire Nation. i hope we see more of that in s2 so that we can see Zuko's world truly rocked when he and Iroh become refugees

-Katara being hailed as a master was very sweet! i wish she would have gotten SOME training from Paku (could still happen at the start of book 2) but I did enjoy that during the Siege of the North that she got her own little battalion to command bc she was seen as worth warrior

-OH and I love how they explored Sokka's character. again, them taking out Sokka's blatant sexism didn't bother me, so i was happy to see that in taking that out they DID work hard to make Sokka's character motivations rich and meaningful. having him have the same complex about being a lacking warrior as the original cartoon but with the added twist of overhearing his dad's harsh words about his abilities really added something to Sokka's insecurities. i loved the inclusion of Sai encouraging Sokka to become an engineer because it was clear how much that meant to him. considering in the cartoon he does become a pretty badass warrior (while still being mainly an Idea Guy) i wonder how this storyline will play out later. if he'll try harder to fit into the warrior box he thinks he belongs in or if he'll blatantly begin to reject that role for himself and identify more heavily with his engineer side

-the cave of two lovers had me worried for a second because Sokka and Katara were paired together for that and im like UMMM so i thought it was pretty funny how they reinterpreted "love is brightest in the dark" in that scene. not as good as the original, obviously, but a funny reinterpretation that i didn't hate

i probably have more to say on the additions but this is getting long so i think it's time to get to some criticisms. this show was not perfect by any means and i have several gripes with it so i might as well get that out now

-WAIT first i must say that a lot of the bending looked phenomenal. particularly Zuko and Aang's bending. both actors (and their stunt doubles) were great martial artists and the fire effects and air effects were done really well. i was really worried about how they'd adapt airbending (since air is invisible) and they did a great job adding in dust cloud effects and making sure the props in the scene moved they like would if they were blasted by air

-AND i must emphasize that i was not mad at them chopping up storylines and mixing them together. the Mechanist/Jet plotlines had similar themes of seemingly Good People doing unethical things for what they believed to be a good cause, so putting them in the same episode made sense to me. and having Sokka and Katara getting spirited away and caught up in that mist (a fun LOK reference that time, i loved the easter eggs) and then captured by Koh was a good way to separate them from Aang the Blue Spirit arc could take place. that also made sense to me. people who get mad about the re-shuffling of episodes frustrate me to no end.

okay, now onto critique:

-unfortunately, Iroh was a giant flop. i don't know how else to say it. i didn't really like any part of him, from his costuming to his writing to his acting. something about him felt like he was plucked out of a campy low-budget stage play and just thrown into this show while only know his campy stage play lines. both Zuko and Zhao give pretty grounded, emotional performances and Iroh is SO jarring by comparison when he's in the same room as them acting like a caricature of himself for no reason. his wig was terrible, i wish they had made it more flowy because it stayed the same shape and position the whole time, he used the WEIRDEST announcer voice the whole time (like why are you using a voice?? no one else is using a voice??), and his robes seemed out of place when everyone else was wearing leather armor. and they had a moment in episode 4 where an Earth Kingdom soldier really laid into him because back when Iroh was a general he was responsible for the death of Earth Kingdom soldier's brother. i was interested to see this bc we BARELY get to see Iroh's Bad Side in the cartoon and i was curious to see where the live action would go with it. but it ended with Earth Kingdom soldier slugging Iroh or slapping his face or something and Iroh made some snoody remark about how war changes people, and he WASN'T talking about himself. like bro this man just told you you COOKED his brother alive he has earned the right to slug you, what are you talking about! i was expecting remorse, or at the very least a solemn look of guilt over the person Iroh once was, but nothing. it was bad. obviously having the iconic Uncle Iroh be so terrible is a huge mark against the show. i simply cannot defend that

-circling back to Iroh's wig. well. the hair and make-up department went out of their way to make important characters look like their cartoon counterparts and that was not always beneficial. why did Yue look like she was from Whoville. who okayed that.

-many people have already pointed it out, but it was weird in ep 1 that Aang's decision to leave was because he needed to clear his head, not because he was running away from his responsibilities. i have no idea why they made this change, unless the reason was to have every single person (including past Avatars) dog on Aang for not being around during the past 100 years. but even that doesn't hit the same bc it truly wasn't his fault! he went for a drive and got caught in a storm! he intended to be back in a few hours! idk that change didn't make sense to me. i know Aang felt guilt regardless but the guilt was supposed to be from the intentionality of Aang running away

-the way Katara broke Aang out of the iceberg was weird?? she wasn't angry at Sokka for his sexism, but she could have been angry at him for SOMETHING that caused her bending to grow out of control. or at the very least when she was bending the canoe towards her she could have done a sharp pulling motion towards her that ended with her arms behind her, therefore forming the cracks in the ice (kind of a callback to how in the pilot Katara could really only waterbend backwards at first). instead her hands were fully facing forward and she was gently bending in front of her and that led to the ice sphere exploding behind her. its been bothering me. whyyy

-character-wise, Katara was pretty one-note. like the addition of her guilt for getting her mom killed with her subpar waterbending, while not bad, didn't make up for how much she DIDN'T have going on. it felt like they toned down a lot of Katara's character strengths AND flaws to give Sokka more room to arc, then shoved all of Katara's development into the last 2 episodes. they didn't show much of her resilient hope in the face of adversity or rage towards injustice or how petty she could be. part of this could be her actor, who i won't dog on because she is a child actor who will get better with time, but i don't think the flimsy writing of her did her any favors

-score wasn't nearly as good as Jeremy Zuckerman/The Track Team's. remixing some of the A:TLA's score doesn't make up for the fact that all the original scoring in this adaptation was flat by comparison

-Bumi's whole thing was....weird. i didn't mind at first that they speedran through his reveal because i don't think there's a point to try and surprise the three people who haven't seen the original. 99% of the audience knew the King was Bumi, so I didn't see any problem with that. but the set-up flashback of Bumi lasted like 10 seconds and basically just showed him snort. it didn't give you a reason to get attached to him as Aang's past friend. and his current actions didn't help at all. the acting was very Michael Meyer's Cat in the Hat-esque. so. uh. SCARY AND OFFPUTTING. was not a fan of that all. and having him do a few random goofy tests for Aang AFTER already knowing his identity felt...weird? like what's the point of these now? and then having the reveal that he's NOT kooky, he genuinely IS pissed at Aang for being gone, well. hmm. it's not a bad idea in theory. i liked the concept of having someone FROM THIS TIMELINE (looking at you, Kyoshi, Roku, and Kuruk, and your unjustified rage toward Aang) be upset at Aang for leaving the world in such a state of imbalance. having Bumi be like DO YOU KNOW ALL THE SHIT I'VE HAD TO DEAL WITH SINCE THE WORLD HAS HAD NO AVATAR, was an interesting line of thought i could have rocked with, butttt.....idk man. it's BUMI. he's supposed to be a living memory of Aang's past to give him comfort and wisdom! it hurt to see this version be so cruel to Aang and basically force him to try to kill him just to prove a point. i would have rather had them write out Bumi altogether and use that episode for something else than to smear his name like that

-i'm tentatively alright with Azula's plotline right now. the Zuko line "Azula was born lucky, I was lucky to be born" is really essential to how their rivalry worked in the cartoon. Azula was a cold-hearted prodigy while Zuko was compassionate boy but average bender. i liked the idea of showing how Ozai intentionally pitted his children against each other. i liked seeing Azula's moment of defiance where she claims she's DONE being tested because she know how good her abilities are. i liked seeing the origin of her lighting bending. all of those were cool fanfiction. the thing that worries me is that we, the audience, have already seen Azula's doubt in herself, something we weren't privy to until the very end of the series. plus showing how hard Azula trains kind of undercuts the fact that Zuko is supposed to think he can't measure up to her because of her natural abilities that he DOESN'T have. they DID plant the seed to Zuko that Azula was the one backing Zhao the whole time, so we do have some of their rivalry primed to go. but the rivalry in the original is extremely one-sided. it will be odd to see Azula fighting just as hard to earn Ozai's affection, because intrinsically she should think that game was won a long time ago. so yeah. i'm not mad about it YET, just interested to see how it plays out

and then there are little nitpicks that could be resolved in season 2, should it get picked up again

-Aang not learning any waterbending or burning Katara with firebending can be woven into the early eps of season 2 before Toph's introduction

-the gaang's chemistry will only grow stronger with time. as the cast becomes better friends, as the kids become better actors with age, and considering they don't separate much in s2, i have faith that will iron itself out naturally

-tbh im sure there are more but this is so long i'm fizzling out. i'm fading. i must stop.

but yeah! good and bad! there's lots to unpack but in general i think it was fun. i'm excited for more.

[jellybeanium124]

re: ed feeling kinda off. he’s felt kinda off all season? he’s had a few moments where he’s felt like himself but his catgirl era he felt so moe he felt kinda bland for half of it and i can’t get a read on him. maybe that’s intentional. but so far he’s had only a few sparing moments where he’s seemed like himself and i’d say the same of stede and izzy and the some of the others too. the writing is off this season. something feels weird. i almost wish episode 8 would be them all waking up and realising it’s been a dream.

oh izzy 1000% got it the worst, and people have been talking about that. but no one's been talking about how ed seems off. I think he's written very well in 2x01-03. They knew exactly what they were doing with him there in the kraken era and then his little journey inside his own mind. but 2x04-07 he's just been... idk not as deep? where's the mad genius vibes? I've kind of been dancing around saying this out loud but... knife parade sounds like something someone outside the show who believed izzy in 1x04 would say. "erratic" and "insane" come to mind. s1 ed wouldn't do knife parade because izzy isn't telling the truth in 1x04!!!! at least... in season 1 he wasn't...

I also think my post about ed's memory issues was unintentionally offensive, and I'm sorry for that. what I'm about to say might also be offensive, and I really don't mean for it to be. but basically, just because something's realistic doesn't mean it's good for a story. ed's memory issues are realistic. but when a fictional character doesn't remember something, the answer to "then did they do it?" usually winds up being "no." (versus, a real person, where the answer to that question usually leans towards "yes.") if ed doesn't remember the talent show, did he even suggest it? (again, ed is a fictional character, not a real person. I wouldn't ask that about a real person)

stede has been the most consistent with his s1 characterization imo. I think he's been coping waaaaaayyyyyyy too well tho. like we only finally get flashbacks to his trauma in 2x06. like the fact that he kept it together so well in 2x03 when he thought ed was DEAD??? DEAD FOREVER???? but other than that I don't have really any problems with him. I was shocked he actually killed Ned. I honest to God thought he was gonna hand him a violin and say "Play." which would fix Calypso's birthday by bringing the music back. However, Stede initiating sex after that made perfect sense. Stede partying in 2x07 made perfect sense. Stede fighting Zheng made perfect sense (he just lost the love of his life. again. and now his friends are leaving him too).

I don't want everything to be a dream tho bc I hate that in general.

My diagnosis: rushed and cheap. everything was rushed. everything had to be cheap. these scripts needed more time to work out all the kinks. they needed more money so they could pay for Ewen Bremmer to be in the whole damn thing, let alone the rest of the cast ~mysteriously disappearing~ sometimes. they needed an extra hour in the form of two more episodes. but like also... do they think izzy's character arc is good? like deep down inside, not what they'll say publicly bc they have to. maybe that's really mean. I'm not sure. I'm sure the writers worked hard. I wish they had more time... I wish they worked on those scripts for another month or two. I wish they shot s2 later and longer for a whole 10 episodes... I wish we weren't getting it till next year if it'd mean it'd be better. But alas. This is the our flag season 2 we will have for the rest of their lives unless we figure out quantum jumping

[scienter]

Does JP lie awake at night thinking of new ways to tick off fans? I mean she wonders why she angers so many fans and why fans don't trust her and why not too many people want to watch her shows anymore? She talks out of both sides of her mouth. I'm sure you saw that tweet which of course sparked discourse again.

Of course Delena and Steroline fans were calling her out on her lies. DE'rs were like "Don't pretend you weren't fangirling all over them when they were happening" or something like that. Others were like "Stelena ended in S4 and you further killed them in S5 & S6" and they were also pretty much saying what Kris said was that they had plenty of time to re-direct the SL back to SE & chose not to.

SCers were like you "You've said multiple times that steroline was planned since S2". Even to this today she said she wanted & planned them since S2 and just a few months ago at a TVD panel she said she wanted Steroline endgame since S2. I mean they started dropping hints of Steroline romance in S4 and it was obvious they were happening in S5 (more specifically 2nd half) and they followed thru in S6. I know it wasn't announced/made public until towards the end of S6 that Nina was leaving but the cast & writers knew she was leaving early S6.

Last, don't try and blame an actress leaving on a ship not being endgame when literally their last scene in S6 you referred to them as Dawson and Joey. Also, she welcomed the Joey and Pacey comparisons to Steroline and even one of the TVD writers during S6 tweeted "Caroline is Pacey".

I don't know what's up with JP's revisionist shipping comment. No one pushed Steroline more than JP when the TVD aired. Not to mention Steroline happened when JP was showrunner. Maybe she was feeling nostalgic for the early seasons?? Idk. I don't see the point in her hyping an endgame she had no intention of ever delivering. Especially given the TVD ship wars being what they are. I don't know why she poked that bear.

[mdhwrites]

Do you think toh needs a reboot? There's lots of things that I don't like how were handled in the show but it's also painful to give up on them when you think of the better ways they could've worked out, characters, backstory, plot, everything in general.

I wouldn't mind a reboot tbh, but then again you mentioned that the show isn't quite concious of it's own identity. So I guess unless they work with better writers, it won't make a big difference even with the time needed.

The short version of this is that TOH's inherent flaws mean that… No. A reboot won't help it, it'd be a nightmare to try and adapt or reboot in general and it's never going to see one in animation that could improve much on the version we got except for cleaning up mistakes made because the writers weren't thinking about the consequences of their character's actions.

And this mostly has to do with its crises of identity being a very core part of its image at this point. If you try to refine it into an adventure series, into a school drama, into a more traditional fantasy story or one of the half dozen identities you could place on TOH, it becomes effectively a different show. It's going to feel different, it's going to be different, etc. like that.

So the first problem with even conceptualizing a reboot is you have all these disparate, clashing elements that barely interact and never were enabled to properly interact in the show so… What do you emphasize, what do you de-emphasize? Because no matter what, you're pissing SOMEONE off. If you lean into the childish nature of S1 then you annoy people who prefer the darker, more serious tone to S2. If you lean into the school stuff, Eda's plotline with her sister becomes more neglected and S1 doesn't feel as coherent while Belos feels like even less of a figure than he already does. If you lean more into the Owl Family, you lose as much time with Amity so her character arc is going to suffer, Lumity takes longer to happen naturally and you probably get called racist because people already call the show racist for how little it cares about Gus and Willow.

Quick note for another blog: I don't think race had literally anything to do with Gus and Willow's treatment. They simply stop having a place in the narrative post S1, even arguably after Luz becomes friends with Amity. They look the way they do for design variance and demographic numbers and that's probably it.

Anyways: No matter what, you cannot fix the conceptual problem of TOH being everything that Dana wanted to say and do alongside throwing in the kitchen sink. The only way to smooth out The Owl House is to literally smooth it out. Just flatten it into five or more seasons so it has the time to breathe and actually explore EVERY concept and even then… Yeah, that definitely gets into needing better writers than TOH has who can follow through on the ideas they have. After all, just because they would have more time doesn't mean they have the skill.

And you would need that promise from go so the writers could plan that out properly and… That's never going to happen. Especially not for serialized content like The Owl House, not in the current media landscape that we have. This isn't even because the show is bad. Quality has VERY little to do with whether something gets renewed nowadays. And if you want to get renewed consistently beyond three seasons (and iffy on even that) you need to hit one of two different options.

The first is for broadcast television where ease of programming, cheapness, and advertising is king. This is where you get why Teen Titans Go has two movies and a billions episodes. That show is entirely episodic and thus very easy to break up, throw into a hole in your broadcast schedule, easy to make marathons because you can just slap a bunch together without care, etc. like that. The animation is also incredibly simply and the show in general is probably very cheap to produce. Its writing style of literally anything goes adds to this fact. Cartoon Network can probably make five episodes of Teen Titans Go with the budget Disney gives for ONE Owl House episode and it works better for the company's goals monetarily.

And yes, Teen Titans Go is bad. It's WAY worse than The Owl House. But quality doesn't matter here. What matters is that it's easy, it's cheap, it has brand identity and is easy to merchandise. It is profitable, safe and people see it as easy to sit their child in front of for when they need the television to babysit.

The other option is streaming services and you're not going to get a 100 episode contract for a streaming service. Yes, they want cliffhangers and serialization to make sure you binge and continue subscribing even between seasons but that's also why streaming services are all or nothing. You either are so big that you will continue to pull people for months after your release or they don't care about your small squad of dedicated fans.

And TOH… Didn't become a cultural phenomenon. It was genuinely nothing special to most people, if they'd even heard of it, until Grom. Outside of that, it was just known that it had above average animation when it launched and… That's literally all I ever heard about TOH until I joined the fandom inbetween S1 and 2. And by then Netflix would have cancelled the show most likely.

Because TOH didn't break any records. It didn't light the world on fire. It didn't even cause some giant discourse that rattled through the internet on all fronts. And that means streaming services would probably rather invest in another attempt at a new Walking Dead or Game of Throne rather than continue the show. It's those record breaking numbers that got Velma and Wednesday renewed after all, not their quality or anything like that. (This isn't me condoning these practices btw. I think it's a real problem like everyone else and that it has to do with a lot of focus on short term gain rather than long term retention but I'm rambling enough as is)

And The Owl House never had that clout. Ever. I mean, how many people always had to add caveats to what made The Owl House special like "On Disney" or "in a prime time kid's show" rather than the show actually being special on its own merits? Especially now? There is one last option and that's of course a reboot that doesn't happen in the next five years but instead is closer to 20 when enough time has passed that radical changes might be allowed. That's the Voltron and She-Ra method effectively. Except... That's where we get the fact that Voltron and She-Ra were big properties at their time, never truly forgotten and have strong nostalgia attached to them. They pushed toys, they pushed consumers and those IPs had a real value to them, even to the current day but to revive them took a delicate touch because cartoons are different now. And TOH just doesn't have that power. That impact and care. And there is a LOT to be said about how it's much harder for shows to have that sort of impact nowadays but that's beyond the scope of this blog. The main point is that in 20 years, why would a studio choose to give TOH that much love and attention versus any of the other cancelled animation projects around this time? Especially something that did get to do its full run like Amphibia?

So… Is there a way The Owl House could get the time it needs to explore its whole identity and possibly become better? Yes? In a webcomic, manga or book. Animation is simply too expensive a medium and not regarded well enough that it's going to get the time but things like webcomics, manga and books are known for being more drawn out, able to do more with that space and more independent because the overheads are a LOT less than other mediums. After all, you only have to pay one writer and maybe a couple editors for a book.

But… I don't think Dana has the skill or attention span for any of those mediums. Not if she's working solo. If you look at her solo episodes in TOH, they have some really powerful moments and statements in them… And also some of the most meh B plots, some of the larger narrative cheats, show blatant disregard for her own world building and even at times had to have major plot points in them retconned by future writers because Dana wrote the show into a corner while trying to be clever. It shows someone who would be much better on an anthology series or an episodic series than ANYTHING serialized.

Remember, Dana wrote Reaching Out, where everyone just forgets that being a Wild Witch is met with the death penalty and is not just equivalent to college, which is how Amity and Alador treat it, let alone the twins celebrating becoming outlaws like they just joined a special club.

So in general, I don't think The Owl House is going to see a revival or the like. I think the best thing that could happen to The Owl House's legacy is that people figure out which parts they like the best and go on to make media inspired by those parts of TOH. Because I feel bad for anyone who tries to adopt TOH as a whole.

Because I just don't think it's possible to capture TOH's essence without also bringing along its crises of identity. The two are too intertwined and that was always going to hold the show back.

[ohlexa]

don't hate what you are, what you are is beautiful. oh my god OH MY GOD. that line!?! i was hooked. like instantly they had my heart in a vice grip and my only thought was, fuck, no. because i pretty much knew how it ended. i've never been more thankful for writers. i'm already half way through sixth to the ninth hour and they weren't wrong, it's incredible. i'm pretty picky and i don't know these characters all that well yet, but it feels perfectly in character. exactly what i was looking for tbh. i know you prefer au but i highly recommend it.

do you have any headcanons for them? what's your favorite scene? did this fandom go through the whole top/bottom debate we seem to love to have? are there any must watch moments or interviews with the actresses? do you have *one* single favorite fanfic for them? fave fan video? i'm sorry for all the ? but i need more damnit 😅

Seriously - what would we do without the fandom creators?! I have Sixth to the Ninth Hour bookmarked so I'm hoping to start it soon - I'm glad you're enjoying it!

Okay, headcanons....🤔...well, I've always loved the idea that Ava loves space. (Don't even get me started on the whole Ava can't move and is literally tethered to the earth vs. that shit doesn't matter if you're in space so OF COURSE she's going to love space conversation....) And you know how her bed in the orphanage was right below a window? Well, sometimes Diego would sneak over, open the blinds, lay down next to Ava and they'd look at the stars together and make awful puns about them (so awful that most times Ava would say "I'm starry! I'm starry!"...ya know how it is). So couple this with Ms. Encyclopedia Brown (am I aging myself with that reference??) that is Beatrice No-Last-Name and it's just perfect. Beatrice spouts all about Greek and Roman astronomy and the little she knows about astrophysics (which, of course, is way more than the average person) and Ava eats it all up.

And while I've never been to Switzerland, I can only imagine how beautiful the starry sky looks like over there. Beatrice surprises Ava one day with a telescope and they spend the entire night looking at all the constellations they can find. Ava's looking up, her face full of wonder while Bea can't help but stare at Ava...because well, you know how it is.

Oh, and that hat Ava wears throughout s2? Bea totally bought that for her, too.

It's so tough to choose a favorite scene (THERE ARE SO MANY), but I'd probably go with their night dancing and drinking at Bar La Vasseur. I find myself going back and rewatching that scene the most. So yeah, that one. (What's yours??)

Ya know, I'm not really sure if there was a "debate" but from what I gathered, most think Bea is a top? (Is this correct? I feel like I joined the fandom a little late to really see it all go down. I'm with KTY though - they flip flop!)

Watch all of the interviews. All of them. KTY did a handful after s2 aired and there are several ones with AB after s1 came out and they're all fun to watch. If you haven't already, I suggest visiting AngeChats on YT - they've interviewed a lot of the WN cast - insightful stuff! (And we can't forget KTY reading thirst tweets!)

I hate you (affectionate) for asking what my ONE fav fic is, but I'd probably go with of greater marvels yet to be. And I really enjoy this fan video.

No need to apologize for all the questions - glad you're here, anon!

[storm-driver]

ep 22 : doctor's disorders is conceptually one of those episodes that i feel like had the potential for interesting conversations or conflicts, but maybe the writers weren't ready to broach that stuff. or felt it was unnecessary?

weird ghost bug ends up spreading a virus to the whole high school that forces ghost powers unto the kids that it infects. it doesnt look like every kid gets every ghost power, but they are completely incapable of controlling said powers, even if they end up being able to use and abuse said powers more than danny can

that alone makes for a really interesting premise, and maybe a bridge to students understanding what ghosts even are. but the episode only brushes that stuff and plays it off more like jokes than an actual topic to discover. there's a really tiny moment between danny and paulina where she's confused about the ghost sense because she has no control over it, and danny calmly explains what it is and even has it happen to him in the moment. it's just a super tiny thing i would've like to see happen with other students, too.

i know this happens in s2 a handful of times, but this is one of those episodes that felt like it was planned to be something different, but the concept of the ghost was put together before the story. and this episode has the return of spectra, trying to build herself a new vessel using bits and pieces of all the students at the high school.

while interesting, i still question why she needs a vessel, since she seems completely fine without one? is it for her personal desire, or because she's withering? no idea, and like before, id like for that to be expanded on one day. i know it wont be though...

i dont actually have a lot to say about this episode since the conflict sorta just resolves and not much happens with the students being affected by ghost powers. there's no commentary on people saying the ghost boy passed by and helped them, and spectra herself is sorta just downgraded from her last appearance (which was arguably one of the best villain moments in season one). i also cant, for the life of me, understand how danny's half-ghost genetic structure helps a proper full-ghost complete their body or whatever, AGAIN WRITERS, EXPAND ON THIS??? im yelling at a brick wall

it's hitting me how often this show just "creates" physical violence by having characters stand completely still or charge recklessly into an enemy with no defensive idea in mind. danny just flies straight at spectra and gets bodied for it because she was literally standing upright with nothing to deter her from retaliation if he ran at her. and i have to wonder if the story-board artists and animators just love torturing this kid with how much they make him run into things.

harmless episode, childish jokes at times, but otherwise, it's fine. i wish spectra had gotten a more serious return considering her first romp. but eh, could've been worse.

WE'RE DOING A NEW POST FOR SEASON 2, HERE WE GO

(link to the season 1 post here, check the notes for each episode)

[ladymorghul]

I'm definitely more than a little worried on how they've handled Helaena thus far and how they'll continue to handle her going forward. Regarding Dreamfyre, the official HotD HBO website says that Helaena rarely rides her. I guess that they wanted to differentiate her from her siblings more since they're more devoted dragonriders than her, such as Aemond (or at least I'm assuming they all are), and having her being more concerned with dragon dreams than by actual dragons. But when it comes to her children we have little to nothing shown on-screen, the twins are barely even acknowledged, and Maelor might even not exist if it weren't for the opening titles.

And then there's Helaena herself, who I think is genuinely the least developed member of the greens besides Daeron, who hasn't even appeared yet. Like, there's so much around her that we barely spend time on. Does she understand her visions at all, or do they just come to her and she's unable to make sense of it? Is she frustrated at her family for brushing off her prophecies, or is she unable to communicate to them what's going to happen? Does she even seek to change the outcome, or does she think she has no control over it happening? How did she feel, when she was first betrothed to Aegon? Did she care about being betrothed to her brother, presumably not by her will? How does she feel about her children with him? Did she want them in the first place? Does she love them unconditionally or take comfort in them, or is there baggage associated with them because they're the product of a distant marriage? How does she feel about being crowned Queen? Did she want the crown at all, or really didn't want it, or is she simply willing to wear it because at her family's behest? Does she have ambitions, or is she simply going with the flow of what happens? (and could this be related to her prophetic visions of the future?) How does she feel about her father and Rhaenyra, and the various politics that everyone partook in? (Aemond's eye, Vaemond's petition, etc.) How much does she believe in her family's goal of crowning Aegon? Is it because she's worried about her family being targeted if Rhaenyra comes to power, or is it simply her being dutiful and loyal to her family, or is she a very reluctant participant? The thing that's keeping me from being totally pessimistic is that they were able to make Alicent, Aemond, and even Aegon to a degree complex and even sympathetic. Especially Aemond, since he was only there for half of the episodes but he feels like a very well-rounded character compared to his book version, with the relatively little screentime spent we spent with him. So like, I can hope they can pull off the same with Helaena.

Like, they need to do A LOT of heavy lifting in the first half of S2 if they want B&C to have an actual emotional impact. I'm hoping, since the year-long time skips are over, that they'll slow the pace down and spend the time developing Helaena that she deserves.

i am also worried about helaena but at the same time, i’m expecting disappointment.

i love the questions you posed about helaena and would be so interested to see the show answer at the very least half of them, but i don’t think they will. 

not only do i think they don’t care about helaena as a character as much as we do, but they’re also moving the plot entirely too fast. 

personally i’m afraid that s2 itself will start with b&c early on so we won’t get much time with her prior to tragedy striking and her falling into depression 

and since i don’t think the writers will deviate her story from her book story this just makes me all sad because they made her a dreamer but she can’t do anything about it. she sees what will happen, she tries to communicate it but it doesn’t get through and she can’t stop it from happening 

at least helaena in the books was described as a happy girl and that she would make a good mother until b&c happened and everything changed 

i love that helaena is a dreamer but if helaena being a dreamer is just their way of adding one more layer to her character that just makes her sadder and more stressed and unable to connect with her mother at all (which people percieve as helaena and alicent having a bad relationship) until the inevitable death of her children, her depression and her jumping out the window then....that’s messed up for this poor girl. 

not only did they not give her more agency, they added another layer of trauma of living with prophetic dreams that she can’t properly communicate but will also not change 

i am not as optimistic as you though simply because the idea that they made alicent, aemond and aegon more sympathetic seems untrue to me to a certain degree. yes, alicent is more sympathetic, but she’s still one of the most hated characters in the show, at times on par with otto. with aegon they did the opposite. they made him a drunk rapist who watches people fight. aemond is albeit the only one who gets more sympathy because they didn’t make him intentionally kill lucerys, but that’s not completely positive from an audience POV. 

in the end, most people still don’t like the greens under any circumstances and personally i think there were moments when the writers tried to make them sympathetic but those were very few and they generally didn’t know what to do with them. and i still think the show is 100% working hard on making team black look like the only choice the audience should have

but yeah, agree so much with you about helaena. they could have tried so much harder to develop her. 

[not-too-many-eyes]

So i finished Centaurworld season 2 and just, OOO BOY-

Uh...spoilers for S2

Okay so first of all, I'm 75% certain season 2 was rushed, now I don't have info on when they started working on season 2 so this can very easily be inaccurate but considering Season 2 was released 4 months and 5 days after season 1 aired...I just feel like there was some time issue.

I, cannot express enough though that 4 months and 5 days is not enough to work on a full season of a cartoon, not to mention a one hour special, even if we assume they were working on season 2 during the production of season 1 it's still a really short time frame.

Now as I said, I don't know the production process of season 2, I can't accurately figure out if this was rushed or not, I just have a really bad feeling it is.

Why am I saying that? Well, Centaurworld season 2 just, isn't as good as 1, not to say its bad, not at all, the finale is one of if, not the best thing in the series but it's clear that there were a bunch of plot points the writers wanted to address but weren't able to.

Backstory magic was definitely supposed to be established earlier in the story as a thing Horse can do, judging by how the Treetaurs acted and well...Wammawink's memory. We don't get an explanation for Stabby becoming a child (though I do love it) The General doesn't get much forshadwoing, the fusion monsters aren't dealt with much, Wammawink's issues aren't fully addressed. Plus The Woman doesn't get addressed much.

It's clear they had a lot of things they wanted to put but weren't able to, now The Nowhere King plot should of definitely expanded for more than two seasons or have a lengthened season 2 instead of an hour long special.

But outside of, the giant pacing issue. I liked a lot of about Centaurworld season 2, I liked Durpleton and Ched's storylines (Was not expecting to like both of them, especially since I hated Ched) Durpleton and Stabby are great I love them, I love Wammawink suck it birdtaurs, The Finale is just great, the drama and the comedy are amazing (except for the fart jokes but oh well) Becky Apples is a cosmic entity from the beyond and I love her.

The Nowhere King's plot broke my head but in the best way possible, finding out that he and The General are the same person was mind-blowing (and seeing The General try to practically drown his other half and then locking him away in a dungeon for ten years is heartbreaking) Seeing the Rider fake-out gave me Marcy Wu flashbacks (in a good way)

I love Motivational Speaker Glendale give me more of her-

I really wish this show got more time cause when its great, it is great, the tone of the show is both so horrific yet so bizzare I find it charming how well they can balance the horror and the comedy...horror since lets be honest, the comedy is sort of horrifying, in a good way. In the way that makes me both terrified out of my mind and laughing.

So Netflix, may I ask you again to please one advertise your cartoons better and two not give them 4-6 bloody months to finish a season of a show. Please.

[dalasteller]

shadow and bone spoilers! malina/mal fans this is not for you but it’s not pro-darklina either. i’m an alina x alina supremacist

so, somehow, the show made me like book!malina more than show!malina after weeks of thinking the opposite would be true. i don’t even like book!mal/malina, but my neutrality towards them is nothing compared to how much i detested show!malina.

I WANTED THE TV SHOW TO MAKE ME LOVE THEM. the trailers made me think i would!!! i'd heard screeners and reviewers talk about this epic love story that transcends everything—these two people who would do anything for each other—and i don't disagree, they definitely would. i just wish they would shut the fuck up about it.

sorry.

looking back, i'd rather the show gave us mal with flaws, who wasn't perfect to alina, who would die for her, but still said the wrong thing and flirted with other girls and was afraid of her power at first. archie did a great job. he just couldn't make me love mal, and neither could the writers opting to make him main character no. 2 and alina’s prince in shining armour who supports her endlessly and has never done anything wrong in his life ever. writers, please, why did you think that was a good idea? when i said i wanted a more likeable mal, i meant i wanted his flaws accompanied by positive traits, by compelling backstory, by personality outside of being alina's hot best friend who never noticed her. i didn't mean i wanted a guy who could be wrapped in a gift box and sold as a robo-boyfriend designed for romance.

no, i mean, they really did write him that way.

what i definitely didn't mean i wanted was over an hour of the show dedicated to watching mal’s perspective of hunting the stag and making besties with his military bros and writing letters to alina and getting shot at a bunch of times instead of letting the book characters who were already beloved by fans get the screentime they deserved. what i wouldn't do to have gotten more genyalina and well-written zoya instead of mal dissecting deer shit...

you would think with how much talk about malina basically being soulmates, childhood flashbacks, fighting and nearly dying for each other at least four times (and did i mention more narration about being soulmates?) that i would take the bait and just let malina set sail. but this show held me at gunpoint for eight hours straight and told me that these two are going to have the same cultural influence as new romeo and juliet and that if i disagree i am going to be killed on the spot. because of this, i have now died.

don't tell me what to do, narrative, because i'm not going to do it!

i am also annoyed that they took the time to redesign mal in perfect childhood-friends-to-lovers dreamboat fashion but refused to retcon zoya's stupid misogyny-fueled bitchy YA girl arc and instead made it even worse by having her be racist to alina? what was the thought process there? they seriously fucked her over. i tried to pretend it didn't happen moving forward but why do they want to use racism as a tool for developing a "bully" character anyway, especially a woc? am i meant to forget about it? they lost me there. i feel like the female characters, with the exception of inej, generally weren't given the same care the male characters were. there was a lot of sidelining in favour of mal's redemptive rewrite and the darkling's 15 minutes of half-assed backstory and crying in every scene for some reason. “make me your villain” .... okay, simpboy, i’ll try my best.

i've already talked about why i hated mal's role (i clarify his role, not his character, because there was literally nothing wrong with him and that’s why i hated him so much) but i'm going to address it from the perspective of my love for alina and why i think this decision was so disrespectful to her. alina in the books was already in need of more characterization, time for herself and her internal development as opposed to her relationship with the three male love interests she acquires through the series. somehow this show took a main character already underused in her own story (though at least the books are told from her pov) and neglected her even further. alina is tied almost entirely to her male counterparts, mal especially, but i'd say the darkling is used as a narrative rebound. i think they both have chemistry and can serve a purpose in the story but the emphasis on codependency is impossible to ignore.

in the first four episodes, every scene that could have been alina struggling to settle into a new life and dealing with the emotional weight of her pressure as a saint was instead about mal. she writes him letters, and cries over him, and slips him into conversations that have nothing to do with him, and gets sad after slipping him into conversations that have nothing to do with him, and can't use her power because she's thinking of him, and then only decides to fully accept her power because of his absence.

alina's feelings are lended to nothing but her missing mal. he isn't just her best friend and love, he's this colossal piece of her identity that she doesn't get to exist without, even when he's gone. the show's exhaustive attempt to make mal loveable and make malina an epic love story turns our female protagonist into a sulking, miserable shell of a character everytime he's mentioned, which, by the way, is like, every two minutes. and apparently it's necessary to draw parallels to the same three flashbacks in all of them. i knoowwwwwwww, they held hands and now they can't anymore, i knowwww. they ran through a meadow, i knowwwwwwwwwwwwww.

watching her scenes almost drove me to printing out a bechdel test and ticking off as many boxes as possible.

i hated it. it made me sad.

i wanted more alina. i want her power to be her own. i wanted that tension between her and mal in the books because his flaws gave her a chance to stand up for herself and say that she liked being powerful. that summoning is a part of her and she would never give it up. that there was a tinge of corruption, of greed, of wanting to be the sun summoner, and it was intriguing! mal's issue of not accepting alina's power allowed her to express how much it meant to her. i wanted the alina who said "the night was velvety black and strewn with jewels. the hunger struck me suddenly. i want them, i thought." i wanted a hint of the sun summoner who decided when it got dark and relished in it (yes i know this can be expanded upon in s2). alina has a cocky side, her insecurities are explored and she finds strength in her new gift and eventually has to find strength outside of it, but in the show the catalyst to her powers is mal. always. is it romantic? sure. but it's hard to enjoy the romance when all we see of alina is her romantic connection to mal. can't she be more than that?

[nomadicism]

I know that you never watched this series, but Game of Thrones and VLD have a lot in common. Both were headed by EPs who weren't writers. Both series started to go down hill around half way through due to stupid writing decisions regarding the plot and character out of a need to "subvert expectations." Hell, even Dany and Lotor have a lot in common and were both screwed over out the need to make them a plot twist villain. Both had horrible last seasons.

Hi Anon, thank you for the Ask!

You’re spot on here, and there’s a bit more to this to peel back and examine. I have a few similar Asks from other fans that have been languishing in my inbox since Game of Thrones concluded, because every time I sit down to answer, my first sentence is always: “I saw it coming”, and then I give up because my answer turns into a ramble info-dump on Social Contract Theory (Hobbes, Rousseau, and Locke), Hobbes’ Leviathan, and related Enlightenment Era philosophies and ethics regarding government and human nature and how A Song of Ice and Fire reflects these ideas (author premise/worldview territory), and why it is that I put the first book down halfway through and didn’t look back.

When it was announced that HBO would air a series based on the books, I said to myself, “Oh hell no, I know where this is going, I don’t need to watch this with HBO’s signature Sensational Violence/Gore/Tits/Sex style.” For each season I almost went for it but held back, because I’d hear the critiques from college friends (all Very Serious Readers) and it was validation every time.

Those of my friends who loved GoT from start to finish (and had already been reading A Song of Ice and Fire), predicted the basics of the ending, including the twist/downfall of Daenerys based upon what they picked up from the Hobbes-esque subtext. They are the kind of readers that drink scotch or brandy as they lounge in a plush recliner in their dedicated library room with at least one entire bookcase devoted to philosophy and ethics. When HBO decided to TV-ify the story, they opened it up to a much broader audience than would have been attracted to the books on their own.

I’m going to go out on a limb here and guess that the general audience for GoT are not the type to read bleak and cynical British philosophers from schools of thought such as: determinism, ethical egoism, empiricism, and so on. It’s really dense stuff, depressing in some cases, debunked in others, but the world-building of Westeros is informed by such ideas. That’s not unusual, many other sci-fi/fantasy series are similarly informed. From what I’ve heard of her character arc, Daenerys appears to have been conceived as a character with a deterministic fate in mind, just like Lotor. The general audience came for the adventure and fantasy, and were clearly expecting something very different than what they got, and that’s not the audience’s fault (same for VLD).

I am glad that you and others who have sent similar Asks all make the connection between Lotor and Daenerys, because the comparison provides another way of looking at VLD’s descent into moral nihilism, and the weird yet seemingly common problem of stories that are informed by philosophies at odds with ways in which some parts of the story are written (hence plot twists that don’t make sense). If I step back and look at VLD using Hobbes’ determinism and ethical egoism critique, then it reveals some of that influence behind the writing of VLD’s later seasons.

There are various forms of determinism, but they frequently inform answers to the Nature vs Nurture debate, and unfortunately, the careless watering down of those ideas within our culture are how we get to: the abused child will grow to be like their abuser, their madness is inevitable.

If someone had quoted some Hobbes to me after watching VLD s1-s2, I would have looked at them like they were crazy. Sure, Sendak is a bit edgy and I can see some dark themes are hinted at…but it’s Y7-FV (among other things). The show is funny! The humor is balanced with the serious parts! They couldn’t possibly be that cynical!

Whelp. After S6-S8, I hear Hobbes in the Galra, he’s been there all along:

“When all the world is overcharged with inhabitants, then the last remedy of all is war, which provideth for every man, by victory or death.” – Leviathan, Thomas Hobbes

Just when I thought I could pack away my pretentious academic discourse, I find another layer to peel back. I’ll leave “Galran Hobbes & VLD” to someone who enjoys scotch and long nights in a plush recliner, but good grief and yikes, both GoT and VLD hit similar wrong/bad notes with wide groups of people. They aren’t the only the only shows to do that, and I hope that media gatekeepers are paying attention to the backlash in the right ways: like really considering the repeated ways in which both live-action and animated story-telling are failing audiences.

[phoenixfive]

Re: the tags, you realize they actively, explicitly tried to erase Sara's bisexuality during season 2 of LOT, yeah?

A gay male EP recently admitted to doing this because they were worried about the reaction from lesbians. They thought it would be offensive to show a bi woman with a man. Even as he publicly admitted this, there was no indication he got that they were wrong, and actually continued to try to spin this as "modern sensitivity" and pat himself on the back for pandering to biphobic queer viewers. He claimed to care what bisexuals thought but a bi female writer who left LOT during S2 has said she was among those behind the scenes who had objected only for their concerns to be ignored.

Sara's basically only still bi because fans complained to the network and Caity went to the producers, but the one producer who seemed to listen has now left and he had to insist on Sara/John happening against push-back on it (and if Matt Ryan weren't available? we wouldn't even had gotten that much), even after they ultimately jerked us around by promising at SDCC last year that reaffirming her bisexuality would be a big priority.

On LOT, her attraction to/feelings for men -- including having canonically been in love with Oliver for half her life -- are still *always* verbally downplayed, ignored, denied or couched in terms or contexts that gives another possible explanation or ulterior motive for being physical with a guy than just wanting to be, always, and even on the few occasions we get that minimizing crap they have to cushion it with repeated reminders she likes women, but the reverse is never true.

They have Sara say "lesbian" isn't a bad word but refuse to let her label herself explicitly even with a general "queer," much less the actual word "bisexual," and still haven't even let her verbalize that she's m-spec at all. We had to wait for The Flash writers to throw us a bone when she faced the Nazi doppelganger of her father, the most disturbing context imaginable to finally hear her say anything like that, and LOT didn't bother to follow up with that trauma whatsoever.

And that's keeping with LOT's treatment of the queerphobia she faces in general. The homophobia she defends others -- monosexuals, always -- from is shown to be serious, but when she's the target it's always presented as a humorous escapade even if she's facing real physical and/or sexual violence including execution, and they have more than once implied she's brought it on herself by being a corrupting, promiscuous bisexual.

She has repeatedly been subjected to biphobia by those around her and not only never gets to shut it down but at times is made to make cracks that validate their grossness even when the audience has seen what they're saying is untrue.

They decided to go against prior characterization by rewriting her as hypersexual then proceeded to shame her for it both in interviews and dialogue and the narrative holds that hypersexuality in contrast to the implied pureness of monosexual queerness, which she needs to learn from and adjust her behavior to be more in line with in order to be considered a whole, functional adult worthy of and capable of "love" (but then that "love" ends up being being constantly belittled and assaulted by a sex-shaming, biphobic lesbian deemed the "perfect" woman).

The current showrunner is relentlessly, violently biphobic in his comments, and called Sara's pre-Ava sex life "pathological."

Sara's bisexuality is not handled well. I've personally seen no other show with a bi regular so openly, vehemently hate bisexuals on a regular basis the way LOT does.

So I have a question and it’s not meant to start discourse I just genuinely want to know.. why do people fight for bisexual representation on tv shows but then get pissed when that character stops dating the person of the same sex and starts dating a person of the opposite sex? Isn’t that literally what bisexuality is? I understand 100% wanting more f/f m/m relationships on tv but if that character were to solely date the same sex they wouldn’t really be bisexual representation?

Give me more storylines of bisexual people struggling with the fact that they’re attracted to both genders and don’t know how to verbalize it.

Give me more storylines of bisexual people not knowing how to fit in because they aren’t one certain thing.

Give me more storylines of bisexual characters dating men AND women.

Also, why is it that a majority of Bi characters are women? Men are bi too?

*drake voice* I’m upset.