#it’s like saying aces are homophobic in 2016

[always-a-slut-4-ghouls]

People on this site will say “unpopular opinion about veganism” and then give one of the sites most popular takes

[antebunny]

So there's a subgenre of fics in the Harry Potter fandom wherein a person conceived while one of their parents is under the influence of a love potion will become aroace at birth. The origin, afaik, are two insidiously awful decisions of JKR combining: 1) she reinvented date rape drugs/roofies aka love potions, without realizing it I guess, and 2) she said that Voldemort was asexual, because she's never seen a marginalized identity she didn't spit on.

Since Merope Gaunt (Voldemort's mother) used a love potion on Tom Riddle Sr. (Voldemort's dad) I guess people got the idea that what if love potions caused asexuality? And asexuality + aromanticism, of course, meant evil. Here's an excerpt from one of those fics in which Bill Weasley explains being aro/ace to Hermione:

[Image ID]

"No. I just dated because that was what you did. I never really felt anything for them. A few kisses, plenty of hand-holding. I made out in a few broom closets, and had one very uncomfortable make-out session up the top of the Astronomy Tower that I eventually ended by pretending I heard Filch coming past on a patrol. I even tried making out with a guy once in case that was it–nothing. I never told mum about that, of course. Good wizards don't shame their families like that."

"There's nothing wrong with being gay, you know."

He shrugged. "It doesn't apply to me anyway. I'm not gay. I wasn't anything, and I was trying to accept that and be content with it. It was good enough. Until I met Fleur." His eyes lit up with joy as he spoke about her.

[Second Image ID]

"Look, the point is with her allure from being part-Veela, I love her. Like I can never love anyone else. I don't want to lose that. You don't understand what it's like to go through life feeling nothing for anyone else. I've dated people I said I cared for, but I wouldn't have died for them. Well, out of logical choice I might risk my life, but not from love. But I would die for Fleur. Do you understand? She makes me a better person. I would do anything to make her happy. I'm not alone in the world anymore."

She nodded slowly. "I see." It wasn't so much him manipulating Fleur, as him permitting her to manipulate him. Into feeling. "I didn't realise it could be that bad." She still thought he should confess, but it didn't sound like he was hurting Fleur–he really did love her.

[End Image ID]

I read this fic years ago, and at the time I genuinely had not thought about my sexuality at all. I would've never called myself aro or ace. Still, reading this felt like being repeatedly punched in the face. I kept on waiting for Hermione to say something similar to what she said after Bill made a homophobic comment. After all, she went out of her way the first time, didn't she. Instead, what I got was essentially:

Bill: I don't usually feel romantic or sexual attraction. So there's something wrong with me.

Hermione: Yeah lmao. But there's nothing wrong with being gay!

I've been (reading) on Ao3 since 2016, and in all that time I've seen plenty of subtle racism, sexism, etc. But I've never seen anything as plainly stated as this. To this day I have yet to hear any aro/ace people describe the experience of being aro/ace in any of the following ways: "How could I forgive myself if we brought a child into the world to suffer the emptiness I lived with my whole existence[?]" /"You should be unable to love." / "You don't understand what it's like to go through life feeling nothing for anyone else."

I could not understand why Bill described it as "emptiness" or "feeling nothing." I still cannot find a single aro/ace person who would describe themselves as empty. The most I have ever heard is: "I wish I was normal" (meaning I wish I fit in, I wish to be accepted by other people). Historically, many aro/ace people married and had kids, conforming to societal norms, and I am sure many believed there was something wrong with them or hoped to grow out of it. I was one of them. On a very personal note, I suspect that my father is too. I am certain that he's never heard the terms asexual or aromantic in his life. But if you think I'll ever discuss his sexuality with him, you're out of your damn mind.

Now, I know it's really easy to find this fic from these quotes. I chose to include them anyways because I think it's important to show how blatant it was. My Tumblr blog isn't exactly a platform, but for the five people reading this: please, please do not go after the author. I truly believe that they had no ill-intent. In the comments of this fic, a few people bring up variations of "it sounds like Bill is just aro/ace" and the author is consistently understanding. Here are some of the author's comment on that fic:

[Image ID]

I very much understand what you're saying. It's a tricky thing for me to address, however. For the core idea I'm playing with is basically the evilness of "love potions". And part of that is exploring JKR's idea that Voldemort, being unable to love due to his mother using a love potion on his father, was a *monster* because of that. Perhaps that doesn't come across very clearly (there's a little bit more of it in the prequel), that it's one of the assumptions I'm trying to undermine. ("Love potions are funny/romantic", "Voldemort is a monster because he could not love", "Harry's power was that he could love - he's not a monster like Voldemort", "There's nothing wrong with selling love potions to teens/adults because it's not 'real' love".)

I feel like I'm already poking at the inherent problem of framing "people who cannot love" as "monsters/psychopaths" by showing Bill and Harry's struggles with self acceptance, and Bill finding a way to love (though do note he'd been making peace with the idea he wasn't attracted to anyone, prior to meeting Fleur). I really don't like the canonical take on love-redeems/love-is-the-best-power/the-loveless-are-monsters, so I'm messing with it a bit. Exploring other people than Voldemort, ones we admire, who are also dealing with being unable to love. Does that make sense? Now, that doesn't mean I'm doing a perfect job at it, but I'm trying my best to explore that theme around the edges of my Dramione story.

[End Image ID]

The author's intention was to show how other characters, made aro/ace via love potion like Voldemort, were not evil or sociopaths. I don't know why all the characters were so aro/acephobic, but sometimes fics get away from you and you don't address everything you wanted to. I don't know why the aro/ace characters had so much internalized shame and hatred when the term bachelor has been in use for centuries, but we fanfic authors love writing self-esteem issues and I would be a hypocrite to say otherwise. I don't know why the author never tagged acephobia or internalized acephobia, but no one HAS to tag anything.

I don't know if the author ended up writing that fic where Harry comes to accept his aro/asexuality. It's totally understable if they didn't; I have failed to write many fics that I really did want to write. Sometimes it's just like that. I really, truly believe that the author had the best of intentions and is not aro/acephobic, just severely misled on what that experience is like.

My beef is not with this author. I used their words to highlight a reoccurring and popular sentiment that I hate. My real beef is that this fic is popular. This is an entire subgenre of Harry Potter fics. I actually decided to write this post because some random person on the internet said, a few days ago, something along the lines of: "Remember when JKR invented a date rape drug that turned people into sociopaths? Yeah…" (And also because I was up until 3 am last night writing a dumb trash angst one-shot about it).

I'd wager that the vast, vast majority of people who write or read those fics don't feel the same way. But the condescension is baked into the very premise of that trope. "Oh poor you, it must be so hard, so lonely going through life without ever loving another person. You must feel so empty inside."

It's actually people who say similar things that make me feel isolated. Most of the time I feel free, like I've cracked this secret code, like I'm able to see things clearly that people so hung up over sex and romance can't. Other times I feel so left out I wish I was "normal." Mostly, being aro/ace is lonely, annoying, exhausting, and liberating.

It wasn't until last year that a friend told me that some people actually do have trouble speaking to someone they've never met before, just because they find that someone attractive. I thought that only happened in stories. But I don't want to get nervous meeting new people based on their looks, I don't want to treat people differently based on how much I want to have sex with them. I wish my friends in high school had never pressured me to come out as bisexual. I wish all the other similarly liberal, queer communities I've found since didn't insist on associating sex and dating with emotional comfort. I wish I could magically stop my parents from expecting me to ever get married and have kids.

But I can't.

Anyways, that's it for today. I'm not sure what the point of writing this was. I really don't want anyone to get hurt or attacked because of it. This is not a callout, or a hate brigade, or any sort of call-to-action. I don't want people to get up-in-arms about this. I'm just tired. I suppose I just wanted to put my feelings out there, and well, this is my Tumblr.

[palant1r]

i know nothing about fallout 4. i still demand the essay

OKAY SO

Basically the central conflict of Fallout 4 revolves around synths. They're synthetic humans that look and act exactly like humans, to the point that some synths themselves don't even know that they're synths. The synths themselves are not inherently evil, but they're associated with their masters and creators, the shadowy Institute. So you've got a society aesthetically based on the 1950s, dealing with the spectre of people who Look Like Them but Aren't, who are fundamentally different, and who "Work" for a boogeyman entity. It's just BEGGING for a red scare analogy, but can also carry a potent queer reading. And instead Bethesda made the synths an analogue for...slavery.

Fallout 4 is a game where the romanceable companions are playersexual. However, as far as I know, they don't actually...reference having any queer relationships or leanings. We got some deadwife manpain characters sprinkled in, women flirt with men and men flirt with women when it comes to interactions between NPCs. You the player are in a heterosexual traditional marriage at the start of the game and there's nothing you can do to change that.

(here's some good further reading on the topic: https://swarthmorephoenix.com/2016/01/22/flirt-flirt-romance-fallout-4s-problems-with-queer-relationships/)

There is a lesbian couple in Sanctuary Hills (who get quickly annihilated by the nukes lol), so this suggests that pre-war society was to some degree accepting of queerness. Gay people get to slot into the jingoistic paradigm of cold war paranoia! So the message of Fallout 4 seems to be that queerness is accepted post-apocalypse just as it was pre-apocalypse, with no unique queer culture or way of seeing the world, and no discrimination, except for the things raiders yell at you to make you not feel bad about killing them. Female characters yell out taunts like "how do you feel about being beat up by a girl?" but without any suggestion of widespread misogyny in the game's main factions. You can romance any romanceable character as any gender with no change in how things proceed.

Which...is simply not interesting, for two reasons. One: it makes the worldbuilding feel flat. Two: it makes every run feel the same.

Let's take a look at Fallout: New Vegas. One of the companions, Veronica Santangelo, is a canon lesbian belonging to the Brotherhood of Steel. She considers the Brotherhood her family, but the previous elder forced her and her girlfriend apart from each other, justifying their homophobia by saying reproduction was necessary to keep their insular, isolationist chapter alive. This gets a payoff in the DLC, when you meet her girlfriend who is hunting that elder down.

Fallout: New Vegas has a lot of little nods like this to queerness and how it's treated by various factions. It makes the world feel richer, because you gain insight into how these factions have not just different ideologies and goals, but different social norms. And it's delivered in an organic way.

Also, you can pick perks that allow you to enter into this world. (Fallout 4, despite its "progressiveness," only has options for the Straight Perk). As a confirmed bachelor, you can skip a whole quest by flirting with Manny, recruit Arcade without having to get in good with the Followers, and get more exposition from Major Knight about how the NCR views homosexuality. Because of that, your playthroughs are made unique based on your courier's sexuality. It feels like an actual character trait that affects how you interact with the world. You know, like how queer people are.

Fast forward to Fallout 4, where you can play as a man and dick down Paladin Danse right in the Prydwen a door away from the rest of the Brotherhood, and no one says shit about the gay sex those two brotherhood members just had. Is the East Coast brotherhood just less homophobic than the Mojave chapter? No, Bethesda just chose not to think about queerness as an actual aspect of how people and factions can interact with the world.

And Paladin Danse's storyline in particular is begging for that kind of storytelling! He's actually a synth, unknowingly belonging to the same group his faction hates and wants to exterminate, and when he finds out this information, it takes a LOT of rizz to keep him from killing himself. Can you imagine the sauce if Bethesda incorporated themes into that about homophobia during the Cold War? It would go SO HARD if romancing Paladin Danse as a man actually involved engaging with the Brotherhood's flaws! And that's just one example!

It also just makes the romances feel even flatter than they already are. You can get into anyone's pants by just, like, lockpicking enough, or crafting a ton of weapon mods. It doesn't feel like they're actual people with preferences, likes and dislikes, or a type of person they like. They just feel like skill checks. Like challenges you can check off by doing things on a list.

Anyway. This isn't super well thought out, fellow Fallout enjoyers please help me out on this

[rayshippouuchiha]

Ac AU

Au where everything is the same, but the year is 2040 instead of 2016 (I think it's 2016 that AC started) and everyone adapts to it.

Like, the girls say things like "ok bummer" and the boys go "CALIFORNIA GIRLS WE'RE UNFORGETTABLE" every time someone falls on training (sometimes the girls dance too), but that's not all!! The parents change too! And Nagisa's mom is also someone who changes! To worse.

She is the person that goes "not to be homophobic", before being homophobic, that used to read Y/n fic and be a monster about it, and still wants a daughter, so she says that Nagisa is a girl and the school should respect it, and even if Japanese laws say that only 21+ people, who are childless and single can have their documents legally changed, she still sends him in girls clothing to school everyday and tie his hair on a messy bun, because if he's going to tie it, he can do it cutter.

She basically tries to make Nagisa an Y/n character.

yeah i want her dead even more somehow

[biracy]

Hi,

You left a really thoughtful set of tags on the post about how vole the Ace community on tumblr used to be. Just in case, please know that the OP has a lot of directly anti-asexual material on their blog. It is very unlikely the post was made in good faith. Nonetheless thank you for good tag reading.

That post was a Long time ago but I think I remember what you mean! Yeahhhh at the time I figured op was coming from a not entirely good-faith place, as any "well maybe those losers/those freaks/whatever had it all coming"-type of post (think, idk, "megapope was right actually"). If I'm remembering correctly, I mentioned that a lot of the most actively homophobic "asexuals" were, in fact, non-asexual people running "asexual tucute troll blogs" bc it was like 2016. While I don't deny that there are homophobic asexual people, I really want people to stop and ask themselves if they really believe "I'm so smol and pure uwu not like u dirty sinnerz that's why u die of aids >w<" is really something anyone would ever genuinely say. It's the gay equivalent of "the woke left is forcing our children to call vaginas a 'bonus hole' to appease the transgender mob!" So little of the homophobia that people used to "excuse" continuing for YEARS to call asexuality a mental illness that doesn't deserve a community, but also that it was never stigmatized as a mental illness the way homosexuality was, was actually anything someone said in earnest. Just like how I think it's important for lesbians and bisexual women* to be able to critique each other's "communities", I think it's important for asexual and non-asexual LGBT people to critique each other sometimes, but that's really not what Any of that was lmao. All 2017-ish discourse is so difficult to look at in hindsight because so much of it was like this. People STILL have this kind of hatred for an entire group of people based entirely on like, some fourteen-year-olds who had just discovered social justice language and a bunch of people running "troll blogs" over half a decade ago. That is an insight that Needs to be there when people try to start talking about "homophobia among asexuals" or whatever

[bellamer]

I will link you the thread that led to this dumbass twitter argument cuz idk if you have that stupid bird app but I already have my base for the essay

Lion King- The whole thing about Timon and Pumbaa being shunned from their families for things outta their control and finding one another, before adopting a child together who even acknowledges that they're his two dads, Timon acting like his mother, even going so far to sing the "Where is the little boy I carried" song and yadda yadda

Bagheera and Baloo: The whole midnight talk from the original movie where Baloo says he'd marry a panther, implying Bagheera, the remake in 2016 where it was basically two divorced parents coparenting their rebellious child, before getting together in the end, Bagheera even licked Baloo affectionately after he risked his life to save their son

Launchpad and Darkwing: Ignoring the fact that Launchpad is confirmed bisexual, the fact that they're raising a daughter together should be enough but it obviously isn't to this dickhead

Todd and Copper: LITERALLY A FORBIDDEN ROMANCE !

Basil and Ratigan: Obsession and Infatuation to the point where they're obviously in love with one another but since they're on opposite sides, they'll have to settle on the sexual tension of trying to take each other down.

Scar: Do...Do I even have to explain ? I obviously do because homophobes love to y'know, deny everything.

Zazu: I... honestly don't remember Zazu tbh so I'll need help with him.

Turk and Tantor: They're butch lesbian and or transmasc and ace solidarity. Turk has never fit into a feminine role and has never been comfortable doing girl things, she tried to become a "girl" in order to "fit in" but decided against it because it wasn't who she was. And Tantor doesn't even like to be near people so I don't think he'd ever have interest in forming a romantic relationship himself.

Wanna help me write an essay on why some Disney animals are gay ? Some dildo on Twitter won't stop harrassing me till i prove it and I thought it'd be fun. The characters in question are Timone and Pumbaa Bagheera and Baloo, Scar, Ratigan and Basil, Darkwing Duck and Launchpad, Todd and Copper, Zazu, Tantor and Turk.

I just wanna piss a homophobe off. @jennrypan

[olderthannetfic]

Some Drama TM happening in the Assassin’s Creed fandom… someone complaining about how a very well-loved authors classic fic was “homophobic” (surprise, it’s a gay romance about fighting internalized and cultural homophobia) and full of “racist micro-aggressions against Arabic people” (I suppose a point could be made about this but saying “Arabic is a sexy language” is not really racist, as were the other examples the non-Arabic complainer “pointed out”, and it’s a pretty old fic anyway). Another rber said “I can just tell when gay stuff is written by straight woman” (surprise, author is not straight or cis, actually). Yet another rber helpfully pointed out how gross the author is because they wrote *gasp* sibling and FIRST-COUSIN INCEST. [also one of the criticisms was that the main character and his cousin whom he considers like a sibling… fight too much. It’s giving only child energy.]

I particularly love when antis are suddenly confronted with the fact that their social media accounts are not private— the author caught hold of the thread, LOLed, and happily told them that they had also written parent-child incest for the same fandom. One of the antis became incredibly shocked— “you can’t seriously take pride in that?” Yes, yes they do. And it’s a damn good fic (with more hits than any of these kids could hope to get in their sorry little existences) so they’re right to be proud!

The AC fandom is where I was first confronted with anti-ism in ye old days of 2016, so it’s nice to see some people with good sense.

--

Not the first cousin incest!!!

[antiyourwokehomophobia2]

"the lgbt community has turned on itself in the past few years"

This sentence implies that there was harmony until something happened. My question is what is that "something"?

What did the harmonious lgbt community stand and fight for? They fought for same sex attraction to be viewed as normal. They fought for gnc kids to not be viewed as something to be fixed. They fought for gay men and lesbians not to be hated for their exclusive same sex attraction. They fought for gay people to be able to proudly state their exclusive same sex attraction without fear of backlash. They fought for gay men and lesbians not to be harassed. They fought for gay people to be viewed as normal.

So, what happened?

Suddenly, people started claiming that lesbians have always been attracted to male people and gay men have always been attracted to female people. Suddenly, people started saying that kinky people and people who experienced attraction in any way deemed "abnormal" by society (asexuals, demisexuals, gray-ace, etc) were lgbt even if these people were completely and entirely heterosexual. Suddenly, bisexual people started calling themselves gay even though they're not. Suddenly, people who think that lesbians can/should like dick and gay men can/should like pussy started infiltrating the community and being loud. Suddenly a bunch of children who felt left out started saying we should make room for them and didn't bother waiting for a response before pushing people out of the way to fulfill their desire. Suddenly, it became wrong to say that lesbians and gay men are same sex attracted even though that was an accepted truth even by homophobes and it's actually exactly why they hated us in the first place. Suddenly, people stating what the literal fucking definition of being gay is were called bigots and told they don't belong in a community built for them.

And then? Gay people did what we always have: we fought back. We told these people that they don't belong here and they're destroying what was built for us. However, much like the parasites they are, they didn't leave just cause we wanted them to. No, unfortunately, these parasites were able to talk back and boy did they yell. They yelled so loud that lgbt acceptance dropped for the first time in years in 2016. They yelled so loud that we're actually having debates if kink is allowed at pride when pride is a public event where children can see. They yelled so loud that gay people don't even feel accepted in the community that was built for them. They yelled so loud that our history has been drowned out by their revision. They yelled so loud that they couldn't hear our complaints and our worries and so when they were done screaming they of course had no fucking clue why we've all turned on each other because they weren't fucking listening to us.

Honestly, at this point, if you don't know why the lgbt community is in such disarray, it's probably because of you.

[wikimb]

Today I had a moment to reflect on something. When I initially made Michael (my OC) I wanted his orientation to be vague. Truth being it was a safe way for me to write him as aromantic asexual without openly saying it. It didn't last for really long time but still.

(TW: ace discourse, aphobia)

I've been there when I saw ace discourse happening (at least I started seeing it around 2017/2018 after discovering there is something like asexuality in 2016 after years of confusion) and it truly impacted me in a bad way ever since. I've been tired of seeing people arguing about aromantic and asexual identities - and basically framing us either as cringe Tumblr identity approprating queer spaces or to go as far as saying we're groomers or homophobes. I saw worse stuff but I don't wanna make this post too heavy.

(TW ended)

Keeping this stuff in mind made me insecure to admit openly the OC is ace. I preferred to hide behind "vague" or just never saying anything in a straightforward manner.

But at some point I broke when someone noticed I really write him as a clearly asexual person - no doubts. So I decided to make this more open and straightforward. No more bullshit. No more succumbing to shame.

I am so happy to see all the reactions were positive and respectful to his identity. Besides I never expected him to be so well-received in general. Never seen anyone crawling out with rude things to say about his identity. It makes me also feel better overall.

That's what I wanted to say.

[colorisbyshe]

Have aces always been considered LGBT? No.

I’m massively bored and massively annoyed at people circulating images of radfems to support their arguments. So here’s another ace discourse post. 

A fringe argument in ace discourse has been “Asexuals have always been considered LGBT!” even though there has never been any noted reference to cisgender, straight aces in LGBT spaces prior to like... 2010. And the LGBT spaces prior to 2010 that let in cisgender, straight aces were just GSAs (which already let in cishets) in high schools or colleges.

And there is a reason for it.

Part of the reason is the changing definition of asexual. The AVEN triangle is based on the Kinsey “Group X” definition where Group X meant just... not having sex. Kinsey (who should not be cited with adoration for coming up with asexuality, as he was an awful person) did not create the “scale” to address who is or is not LGBT.

Then, radical feminists (ie also not an LGBT group) defined asexuality as viewing sex as nonessential to relationships. This bore an iconic image used to defend aces as LGBT to this day:

The image is from “off our backs” which is a radical feminist publication. This particular group was “Lesbians Activists at Barnard (College).” This was not listing LGBT identities (thus why straight was up there) but was listing identities you could have as a radical feminist. Similarly, the “Asexual Manifesto” was published by radical feminist Lisa Orlando who published it through New York Radical Feminists. And talks about asexuality being a choice, not an identity.

At the same time, asexual was referenced by a trans liberation mag, as we can see from ANOTHER image used by inclusionists:

This is an image just saying that all trans people should be liberated no matter if they are straight, gay, or anything else. It should be noted that since this was published in 1970, it was functioning under the same understanding of asexual as used by the radical feminists who defined asexual as seeing “ sex as nonessential to a satisfying relationship.” Not at all our modern definition of asexual.

So, we’re into 1970 and no one is considering ace to be LGBT. And yet it exists as DISTINCT from bisexual, so all of you fuckers can stop with the “actual cishet aces were considered to be bisexual” cause... no they weren’t.

Skip to the first proto ace community as listed by aven itself, Zoe O’Reilly’s “My Life as an Amoeba.” Which speaks of envy towards LGBT people, boasts of asexuality being about not fucking or dating and how that makes them better than teen moms, and defines asexuality how we would aroace. So, different ace definition than today... still not considered LGBT.

AVEN’s creation is messy as fuck and struggles to define asexuality but decides that basically any person who relates to non-sexuality belongs there. Neato.

May 2003 on AVEN: “Let’s change LGBT to LGBTA.” David Jay, founder of AVEN, says, actually, he’s already done so by making his universitys acronym “ LGBTTQQPFAGIBDSM “ (spot the slur, look hard at the inclusion of BDSM). People make “LOL SO MANY LETTERS” jokes that homophobes make about LGBT to this day. Then:

“The ace is for ally bro” and Aven guy says, “Actually, allies are queer.”

So, 2003... aces aren’t LGBT. And David Jay is a fucking freak. Also, someone brought the thread back 8 yaers later to say “Ew aces aren’t LGBT like those sinners.” Oops.

In 2010, aces decided to make their own flag. Some like stripes because it’s “Very LGBT” and well... here are some responses:

So, already an acknowledgment that they might not be LGBT. But calls LGBt people “Alternate sexualities” which... die.

“The gays get a lot of guff, right? Because of their rainbow flag” not OUR rainbow flag, lol. Also, wtf and then someone else points out the a is for ally anyways

In 2010.

In 2015, aces started the #GiveItBack campaign after GLAAD (and then HRC in 2016) said the A is for Ally. You can go on twitter and see aces tweeting about the #GiveItBack campaign if you don’t believe me, lol.

So, if aces want to claim that aces have always been LGBT... I gotta say... history is not on your side and, “No, no, I swear they were actually considered bisexual” doesn’t work because your own images include people listing out bisexual and asexual as separate identities.

Anyways, this post is long as fuck but only took 20 minutes. And will ONLY take me 20 minutes because I’m not arguing with people who want to defend an image of a radfem, an out of context image about trans liberation, or Kinsey lmao. Anyone who wants to argue will be laughed at and/or blocked.

Cause... listen... even aces in the time periods y’all are claiming you were included are saying you weren’t. You’re just wrong. Lol.

[i-did]

hey! I hope those aftg asks aren’t getting tiring lol but I was wondering if you had any thoughts on the recent fandom treatment of Kevin, which seems to be mainly seeing him as a victim mistreated both in canon by the other foxes & by nora himself? Like I remember in the earlier days of aftg (like maybe around 2016? 2017??) there definitely wasn’t this kind of focus or view of Kevin & I feel like he was treated with somewhat more nuance then? And this could be related to the growing hate for Nora since then but you don’t see people say the same things about the other foxes?? This is a very messy ask lol but I’m genuinely so confused about this trend esp because Kevin seems to be the only fox (as far ive seen anyways) that people are holding up as a victim w/o any nuance

I have a lot of fun answering these, I just sometimes take a minute to get to them lol

Okay so I definitely know what you're talking about with the Kevin thing. The first major factor is that AFTG has finished coming you years ago, and Nora has not actively engaged with the fandom since 2016. I came around into AFTG in 2017 as a reader, and looking at the fanart. Mostly by then you see the race headcanons locked into place and the beginning of the split between fanon and canon. Without more canon, fanon content starts to develop as whoever is more influential the fan creators (fic authors, fan artists) start to do things that trend. As a time passes in a fandom, it tends to split into niches, people who see things a certain way and want to see more of that follow each other and gain followers who agree with them. 

There is definitely a Kevin centric niche that thinks those things. I don’t think there was as much focus in general on Kevin back in 2017, but I also was pretty new. But there were no extreme Anti-Andrew fans, back then it was “you are either a fan of Nicky or a fan of Aaron.” People didnt have “dni choking apologists” on their blogs. 

I think choking discourse is a good example of the rise of Kevin. Andrew must fall for Kevin to rise. There are kandreil fans that genuinely like all three, and some ace/aro Kevin fans that like him just as he is, but a lot of Kevin centric content I see now on tumblr is about how Andrew is the real villain of AFTG for choking Kevin, despite Kevin violently choking Neil in book 1. 

Back in 2018 they weren't pitted against the other and I think the whole “you can only like one character or the other” thing is stupid imo. I like Nicky more than Aaron, but I still think they're both interesting characters. Ive seen a lot of “Kevin was only a victim” takes, and in fact got cyber bullied for a while by some people who thought I was too mean to Kevin in some of my HC by implying he also had some power in the nest and likely hurt others, and that he feels guilt over it. :/ but there is also a similar niche with “you can't blame Aaron for his homophobia, his mom was abusive, and she likely made him that way.”

It's the most similar discourse trend I've seen to the Kevin discourse. It’s a similar lack of nuance, and I think people inflict it their favorite character because they don't want to have a ‘problematic fav.’ Aaron is canonly homophobic, Neil says directly after him and Andrew ‘come out’ to the others, that he was waiting to see the same grief Aaron gave Nicky over his sexuality. It doesn't mean he can't be also a good character or a person someone likes, in fact well written characters have dimensions and flaws. 

Which that whole mess is similar to the whole Kevin thing. I think people fall in love with the idea of Nora’s characters, or maybe the fanon characters–but not the real characters. Which is also why they say the author hates them, because they got written to do bad things or not be in the story as much, they defend these characters as if they were real people who need defending, need to be saved from being erased. These characters become “their character.”

I think this also happens because people kin characters and identify with them a lot, so when I said “Kevin was in a position in power in the nest too, even in second place” and then receive threats for how I personally hurt someone who's a CSA survivor because of my Kevin HC I'm like (o – o). I think these people project so hard onto Kevin and design him in their mind, they feel as if character flaw HCs or depictions of Kevin struggling and being mean are personal insults, or at least very personally insulting. And I don't want to sound like an ass, but like my Kevin isn't the same as their Kevin, my Kevin is my Kevin. 

I see skinny art of Andrew and art of Neil as white or ginger, these don’t align with my personal HC’s about them, but like that's what I chose to go with. Nora uses language that makes me believe Neil has dark auburn hair, but if people want him to be ginger idc. In canon he was written with the intent to be white, I ignore that because I think him being mixed adds more depth to his character (as well as me being tired of only white mlm, and have updated my reading list). Andrew wasn’t imagined by Nora to be fat either, but I HC him as like a mini muscle bear instead of Toby Hemingway. 

I keep the canon intent in mind to remind myself how she actually saw them and how that can color canon and how other people are allowed to see Neil as white and Andrew as skinny. Like I understand why people get annoyed over other peoples hc’s, I feel similarly sometimes. But like at the end of the day, you just gotta move out of that fandom niche and into a new one or just ignore the post.

[becausethathappens]

@proudmythicalbeast suggested other people give a timeline of their coming out, so here’s mine. hard to condense, but i tried. 😅

we might be the slowest in the alphabet to figure it out, i swear.

1988: born a cisgender* girl.

1992-1997: whenever i play pretend/dress up it’s almost always the male disney characters or zach morris. i’m in love with fox mulder. i want to be dana scully.

1998: i get my first boyfriend. we kiss once, a peck on the lips. 

1999: we break-up/we don’t have the same teacher anymore.

2000: i get irrationally angry over how willow’s relationship w/ oz on buffy is abandoned when she goes to college. even moreso when she starts dating a woman and IDing as a lesbian. i don’t bring it up because it makes me feel like a homophobe.

2001: at an all-girls sleepover, i practice kissing with a friend on a dare. i don’t like her, romantically, but it feels great. so i assume kissing guys will be great.

2002: first boyfriend comes out as gay. 

2003: close female friend tells me she likes a close male mutual friend during a sleepover at my house. i help initiate a hook-up between the two.

2002-2006: my favorite HS teacher is a butch lesbian sculptor who is in a long-term relationship, drives a harley, and lets us choose the music to listen to in ceramics class. i do an independent study to stay in the class all four years.

2004: close female and male friend break-up. we all drift apart.

2005: i hypothetically consider rooming with a lesbian friend (who i had zero interest in romantically) from HS bc we both got into the same college. when i mention this to my mom she can’t understand how that wouldn’t make me uncomfortable. i literally can’t understand why it would. she point blank asks if i’m gay. i say “sharing a room with a lesbian doesn’t make me a lesbian.” because i like guys and “gay” doesn’t sound like it includes that fact. i get into a dialogue about why assumptions like that are harmful to the gay community.

2006: i hook up with a guy for the first time. 

2006-2009: LGBTQIA issues are so important to me it feels overwhelming. i get very political and loud about it, since i’m straight and it’s the least i can do. 

2010: that close female friend from HS comes out as a lesbian.

2010: i hook-up with a girl for the first time, casually. she initiates it “for attention” at a party. like a girls gone wild video. 

2011: i loudly espouse the concept of a “girl crush” is stupid and if you find people other than men are attractive, you should just say so. that’s what i do. i date men. women are hot. more than one thing can be true.

2011-2014: i fill out “about me” questionnaires online with “mostly straight” because that’s a quick little joke that almost explains it.

2015: i realize that the joke is that i’m already saying i’m not straight. after researching bi/pan and not understanding the difference, i consider it all “too complicated” and leave it be. i like everybody, but probably will marry a guy.

2015: the girl i hooked-up with at a party comes out as a lesbian.

2016: i start discussing things as if i were bi/pan just to see if that makes it simpler. it does. i still refuse to differentiate on a label, because i’m lazy and stubborn and hate TERFs.

2017: i stop filtering how i discuss my interests with family and friends. some ask if i’m gay, i explain. the rest don’t notice. (maybe they’ll figure it out if/when i don’t marry a guy.)

2020: i realize i might also be poly, but it’ll depend on the partner.

2022: i’m extremely bi(gender), too. and probably some variation of ace.

[shroom-n-doom]

i love having a writblr as a place to store all my inspo and references but its really annoying when one of the blogs i follow reblogs one of those discoursey political Tumblr Group Think™ posts and i have to Remain Calm and not Go Off bc its illegal

[historicallyace]

Hi hello, I've gone through your whole blog and it's fantastic! Now for my question, which is actually a general...wondering? Have you heard or seen sources for why the AVEN founder, David Jay, is apparently homophobic/misogynist/AntiSemitic? Myself and other Ace Twitter people are looking, but so far all we've found is normal queer growing pains and people making stuff up. I saw that you intended to look into AVEN eventually, so I thought maybe you'd have info?

I’m not planning on doing a post on AVEN any more at this point, because I’m so far removed from that drama and that website that at this point it just feels silly, but yeah, we can talk about David Jay. That might as well be how I start my day.

Let’s start with the fact that these arguments, regardless of any truth to them, are always being made in bad faith. The argument is never “David Jay is a bad person and shouldn’t be in charge of AVEN (aside: is he actually in charge of anything any more? He’s not listed on the moderation team at AVEN any more), and you probably shouldn’t use him as a source of information about asexuality,” it’s always “David Jay is a bad person, and therefore asexuality is bad, and therefore all asexual people are bad.” One of those, given reasonable evidence (take note of that disclaimer, it’ll be relevant later), is a reasonable argument. One of those isn’t.

With that said, let’s break down the arguments under the cut.

If they’re saying “David Jay is homophobic!” what they most likely mean is “David Jay made a joke on an AVEN thread once that involved a slur that I don’t think he has the right to use!” Here’s the thread, which is a shitshow all the way down to be honest, but is peak 2003 Internet. User AVENguy is David Jay, and posts in the thread about changing a university LGBTQ+ group’s acronym to include the word f*g. Given that no such university group has any web presence at all, ever, that I can find (and in particular, Wesleyan University, which is the school Jay attended, seems to generally use queer for its services and student groups), I’m reasonably confident that is is meant to be a joke poking fun at the length of the extended acronym, which you’d think exclusionists would love given how much they love chopping that acronym off at the knees in defiance of all history and logic. Now, I’m not saying that it’s a joke in good taste. But it smells like a joke to me, and doesn’t get treated as one in the court of Internet opinion.

Whether Jay actually has the right to use that particular slur is, to my mind, up for debate as he has had relationships with men (I believe he’s currently in a committed polyamorous relationship with a man and a woman?). I don’t know whether he IDs as bi in addition to ace, although I know people on Tumblr have made that claim. I’ve never seen a source one way or the other. I don’t know whether he’s attracted to men. I do know that I’m 100% not interested in interrogating what words he does and does not have permission to use based on a detailed history of his relationships.

If they’re saying “David Jay is a misogynist!” what they most likely mean is “David Jay has had sex and didn’t enjoy it, and the way he talks about it in interviews is uncomfortable.” See this interview for an example of this. What statements like this get interpreted into is the classic exclusionist line of “asexual people are being manipulative if they have sex”. The way Jay talks about sex is definitely not the way that someone who isn’t ace would expect to talk about sex. It’s not the way that I talk about sex, as an asexual person. But I’m not uncomfortable in a “this man is definitely treating these women badly” way, I’m uncomfortable in a “oh boy, you were obviously making some choices here that weren’t great for you” way. YMMV.

I’ve also heard allegations that Jay was “documenting his sex life with his ex-wife on AVEN.” Given that 1) Jay has never been married, 2) I don’t have enough search terms to go on to find the threads in question, and 3) I definitely don’t remember seeing something like that back in the day when I was actually active on AVEN, I’m inclined to discount that, but it’s an argument that’s out there.

If they’re saying “David Jay is antisemitic!” what they most likely mean is “I don’t like the AVEN logo.” This is honestly one I’d never heard before, and I’m not confident that this is right. If David Jay has actually said or done something that is antisemitic, though, I’m not able to find reference to it. So I’m guessing it stems from something like this, in which an anon is calling out the AVEN logo as antisemitic (under the assumption that is is based on the pink triangle). AVEN’s triangle gradient logo is based on the Kinsey scale (see here for an example of this diagram in use). It is a reconfiguration of the Storms Model. The fact that it is the same shape as the pink triangle is coincidental.

I feel like there could also be a connection to the AVEN mod drama of 2015-2016 - at the time, AVEN’s forums had rules that were enforced in such a way that peoples’ threads would get locked for pointing out that something someone else had said was bigoted (under “personal attacks” rules IIRC). I don’t remember whether there were specific incidences around that rule with antisemitic hate speech, but it is possible. Striking this part because I’ve managed to pull up some of the old references to the mod drama (see here for some details) which was actually older than I remembered it being, and am not finding any references to antisemitism accusations. So it’s probably just the triangle, which again, has no connection to the pink triangle. Two things can be the same shape without being based off each other.

So there you have it. These are the crimes of which David Jay has been accused. I find the evidence to be specious and open to interpretation at best, and flat-out lies at worst. You can, of course, make your own judgement calls.

My personal opinion is that I don’t really like the guy, but I will defend to the death the facts that he is not the be-all and end-all of asexuality, and he probably doesn’t deserve all of the vitriol that is slung at him.

[hollyhomburg]

omg yea that one opinion ab the gay kpop stans is sooo true. ofc not all gays are like this but i’ve seen a lot who bash ppl for being straight,bi,ace,basically not gay. like i thought the lgbt community was supposed to be welcoming and loving why are y’all being so hateful and giving us a bad name😭 also the projecting your sexuality onto idols is sooo true omg just cause an idol isn’t gay doesn’t mean they’re a bad person or you can’t stan them. they’re not your personal boyfriend/girlfriend..

yeah and let alone the amount of transphobia that exists in the community, I feel like alot of stans use their identity to be like “I'm gay so you can’t say im wrong and if you do you’re homophobic” like even today, i saw a girl on tictok being all like “just because hoseok wears nailpolish- doesn't mean he’s gay, he could just like it” and she got torn apart for being homophobic- but like- allowing straight men to partake in feminity without being gay isn’t homophobic,  (assuming someone can’t like feminine things without rejecting attraction to women is just misogynistic)  

this is really true in kpop- its really hard for idols to feel free in general- let alone with they overanalyze and sexualize everything they do, let alone the difference in beauty standards and stigmatization of affection in western cultures. there is a lot to unpack- especially the way that western sexuality doesn't always apply to places that aren’t the united states. im just thinking about like- when i went to Thailand in 2016 and there where just so many beautiful transwomen walking around? like all the time? so much more than I’d ever seen in the us

 it’s easy to forget that some of bts have already confirmed they’re not straight too! like yoongi saying he had crushes in middle school on one of his classmates, while going to an all-boys school, or saying “my ideal type isn’t limited by gender” and all of them collectively agreeing to keep bt21 gender neutral. like- it’s clear they know a lot about lgbtq issues, and i mean- tae’s favorite movie for a long time was call me by your name.

 we should let the boys speak on this themselves and keep in mind that sexuality is something that changes for a lot of people and that they won't come out until they’re ready to do so. 

[everything-mormons-hate]

Okay so story time.

So I was [obviously] raised in the Mormon Church and I am also queer as fuck. I am actually a senior in high school currently and almost 18 (for a little context for everything i guess). I have known I was queer since late october early November of freshman year. This story time is mainly about the homophobia i have faced within mormonism.

Okay so for a long time i was quite homophobic due to my lovely lovely upbringing. I started to doubt wether or not I was right in this belief around early ish freshman year exact dates are unknown as most of my life and escpecially freshman year don't exist in my memory due to trauma and depression. The reasons for this were things like my best friend at the time coming out as bi to me and trump getting elected as this was late 2016 and seeing how scared people were about that. And then right around the time i started drifting away from the beliefs I was raised with I realized i was very vry gay and infact had a huge crush on my best friend. Now me being the useless fucking gay that i am didnt actually end up getting together with my best friend despite both of us knowing we liked each other until late December and that's when the problems really started. You see I lived in the deep south at the time plus my best friend and i met at church. All of our fucking leaders immediately pinned us as gay. This lead to things like:

Our leaders did everything to keep us apart and my mother who was actually one of the leaders for a while would go as far as to separate me from all of my friends at church.

I had a friend's parents do everything they possibly could to keep me from talking to my friend and i wasnt allowed to hug or touch her at all because they didnt like the possibility of me being gay

I had a leader pull my best friend and possibly at the time significant other (i dont remember if we were technically together at this point or not) and i aside and basically go look i know yall aren't lesbians cause you like boys but youre making some of the young women and old people uncomfortable so you need to stop being all touchy.

(I feel like it is important to mention really quick that physical contact is a huge thing for me and if i know youre okay with it and i am comfy with you i will be super super touchy and shit its just how i show i trust you)

I had leaders yell at me for hugging and cuddling my friends

I discovered a week before i moved that one of my leaders had thought i had dated all of my friends

My last girls camp i became friends with a girl in another ward and it was immediately assumed that i must be trying to fuck her or some shit (spoiler alert i am very ace) and we got in so much trouble over quite frankly everything.

Actually that week is a whole story in itself: she came with me to go get my flashlight from my cabin and i got yelled at for that

She had her leaders tell her i was a terrible person that she shouldnt talk to or hang out with

We had the stake leaders pull us aside to bitch at us about honestly i dont remember i just remember the multiple panic attacks and breakdowns before hand

We had the leaders make it very clear i wasnt allowed to be alone with anyone because what if.

Honestly im sure other fucked up shit happened that i have forgotten but yeah. Needless to say by the end of all this I was so ready to move as i knew where i was moving was a very liberal area and unfortunately this hope of actually being accepted ended up being my downfall.

Three days after i moved here i made the error of coming out to two of the young women. One of them told the bishop which lead to him pulling me into his office and asking me if "i struggled with same sex attraction"

I quickly became an outcast in my new ward and that is honestly still how it is after nearly three years of living here. I made friends with 1 of the young men and his mom is one of my leaders and her and i get along well but other then that everyone views me as either some project or someone not worth talking to.

Thats not even getting into the homophobia and abuse i have suffered through at the hands of my own family using their religion as their crutch or how the reason i dont remember so much of freshman year was on top of the suicidal thoughts and the depression i was abused so much more that year then other years.