#irish travellers

[revoltedstates]

Another memory from Tobey Doherty, Irish-Traveller-turned-Union-soldier. From my novel, Year of Crows.

[asapphicmagnuschase]

does anyone here have much info on irish travellers, especially cant? i’m still developing a character, i’m thinking of her being a traveller, and want to know if i’d be offensive w anything 😭

uh so a few questions if anyone wants to answer

1. what are some neutral/positive terms in use to travellers? i know lucht siúil in irish, and mincéirí may be in cant..? i know basically nothing, i only found out one of the terms i thought was neutral was actually a slur from a romani tiktoker 😭

2. where is cant developed from? what would be the correct name for it? any info on the language is welcome lol

3. things to avoid in the character/character design (i wont be basing much around her ethnicity anyway, if anything).

4. where do you consider your roots to be from? ireland, england, norse, even if theres a region that would help a lot

5. do much travellers still travel? like are they still nomads?

literally ANY info would be welcome, i know nothing and cant find much 😭

[mrkeatingsblazer]

Grant chapman is an Irish traveller bc I’m an Irish traveller and I said so

[izabesworld]

Hi! So I'm but sure if you've answered this before, I've just found your blog but find it interesting, especially since I'm trying to write stuff for Peaky blinders. I was wondering if you could tell me your take on the use of the word "gypsy" when writing. Because I know it is very controversial and a lot of people say not to use it because it's offensive. And I was just wondering if you could explain why, because I grew up in the US and am not really familiar with the culture and it wasn't really anything I grew up hearing about. So I was just wondering if your could maybe explain why people consider it a slur because I'm really am not sure. I don't want to me rude or anything it's just something I'm genuinely curious about. Because I've seen some people say they think it's offensive and some props say they think it's rude. I was also wondering your take on possibly using it in a Peaky blinders fic, because I think in the shot the Shelby's have use it a few times to describe themselves or when just they're being referenced or because I've heard it was used more in that time. And yeah. I know that was kinda ramblly and I'm not sure if it makes sense but I was just curious on your take about it. You totally don't have to answer though!!! Thanks for reading this!

Hey! I have answered this before, but I'm more than happy to answer it again so thank you so much for this question.

History lesson first:

The word "gypsy" has a few origins in relation to Rroma, so I'll go through the ones I know and work through them.

The first one I'm aware of is the idea Rroma individuals come from Egypt. Many were unsure of our origin but knew we had "strong" features and darker skin. These traits are due to us originating in South India. So the first meaning of the word I know us gypsies from Egypt, which is factually incorrect.

Another reason I'm aware of is the breakdown of the words - to gyp means to steal (or in some definitions to gamble). Throughout history, Rroma as a group were deprived of recourses. Many of us were involved in slavery in Eastern Europe for 400 years, and others were sold in the Atlantic Slave Trade to the Americas (leading to the group Afro-Romani).

If you deprive a group of people of the basic necessities to live, they're going to bargain to get them, maybe even steal. During these times in history, we were known for stealing food and fabrics from richer members of society. Therefore, gaining us the name "gypsies"

It's also important to factor in other ethnic groups that also use the name "gypsy" when in referral to themselves:

1-We have Irish Travellers, to start, who are not Rroma. Irish Travellers are from Ireland and are a whole other ethnic minority. People often confuse Irish Travellers with Rroma due to their similar nomadic lifestyle. Irish Travellers allow themselves to be called gypsies as it was a self-given title centuries ago, inspired by the Rroma definition of gypsy.

2-We also have English Travellers, who are often confused with Romanichal. In England, people are often confused with the difference between English Travellers and Romanichal - and so was I (in full admittance) when I began educating myself on the different types of travellers.

While there are marriages and cultural similarities between English Travellers and Romanichal, they're not at all genetically or historically linked. English Travellers come from Cromwellian times. The English Travellers also have their own views on the word gypsy, and doesn't have any historical nor offensive connections to them.

3-British Romany "Gypsies". British Romany Travellers are a very specific type of Rroma. British Romany Travellers have been in England since 1515 when Rroma began migrating to Europe after their migration from India. They're the descendants of Romany migrants who emigrated from India - therefore, the meaning of the word gypsy to them is in relation to the British's (is that a word?) idea of them coming from Egypt.

4-The Romanichal (Romanichal Travellers) are a Romani subgroup in England and other English-speaking countries. These are not English Travellers as they are descendants of the Rroma who once lived in India. Most Romanichal speak Angloromani - which is a mixed language that blends together both Romani vocabulary and English syntax.

There are around 400,000 Romanichal worldwide, 200,000 living in the United Kingdom, 164,000 living in the United States and the rest living in South Africa, Australia, Canada and New Zealand.

5-Kale (Welsh Roma). The Kale are a group of Romani people in Wales and are often descendants of Abram Wood who was the first Rom to live in Wales in the 18th century. There are around 700-1,000 Kale members of society and speak their own version of Welsh Romani.

6-Romani (also spelt Romany or Rromani depending on where you come from). Romai people live in predominantly Europe and there are around 2-12million worldwide (shocking 10million confusion I know). The language you speak as a Romani person depends on where you live, where your ancestors lived etc as there are hundreds of Romani dialects.

NOW TO ANSWER YOUR QUESTION!

The short answer to your question, which I probably should've put at the start and not the end, is please do not use the word gypsy when relating to travellers as for all "gypsy" groups there is a more specific name used in regard to them.

The word gypsy (also seen as gipsy) is rather ambiguous in dialect use as it doesn't specifically shown who you are in referral to. While some communities such as Irish and English travellers deem the word okay to use, the vast majority of the Rroma community do not.

The word gypsy in reference to the Romani community has connotations of illegality and is known as a racial slur. In 1971, the world Romani Congress unanimously voted to reject the use of the word gypsy due to the stereotypes associated.

The word gypsy was used against the Romani community during significant human parts of history - the Holocaust, the Romani slave trade and the Atlantic slave trade.

HOWEVER

It's also important to keep in regard the use of the word, are you using it to write an 1800s piece? Is your story or piece of text historically accurate, and to use the phrase "Romani People" would be historically inaccurate as that isn't what we were called then.

Are you writing a piece that highlights the issues behind the word, where you aren't calling Romani people it, but instead highlighting the wrong in it.

Are you taking from a place in the early 1900s where Romani people called themselves Romani gypsies because that was the official documentation name given to us.

In summary:

Please don't go about calling Romani people gypsies unless in a historically accurate context.

I spent 20 minutes typing on this post, so thank you so much! I may have to open a window and I'm sweating like a dog in heat and need a break. You definitely gave me a lot of talking points (lol oops), but thank you for that also. All in all, I hope your answer is somewhere in this mess. 💗 May you have a blessed day!

Izzy 💓

[dragynkeep]

Hey! American here, Traveller heritage on one side, but settled and mostly cut off. Really appreciate coming across your posts on the topic - in my own travels, it's been rare to meet someone who knows anything about it, and are generally surprised to find out Ireland is host to multiple indigenous ethnicities.

USian, but American is the primary identity I claim, yet it is important to me to know the people I came from. That I've been able to add a little bit more vocabulary to the small amount of Cant I've been fortunate enough to learn is huge for me. Thank you for that.

Be safe,

hi there! we're so glad that you've enjoyed our posts about the experience of being irish travellers / romanichal in ireland & the rest of the uk.

it's amazing you've been able to learn some cant, especially since we've been rather closed off in regards to the language due to the unfortunate racism we face, i have some resources for you below if you want to further it in any way!

infographic card that also includes some basic romanes!

brief history of the languages

a pdf dictionary of shelta words

further dissection into the language but tw for a slur in the title

we hope you have safe travels! 💖

[secretregards]

Float Like a Butterfly (2018)

[camphorfreya]

I love how genuinely happy and excited she is. Full of optimism despite the challenges of living as a traveler. This girl got ripped off by her dressmaker and handled it like an absolute champ because ultimately she’s happy with where her life is going and doesn’t give a fuck about the details.

[nudeartpluspoetry]

Suspect in former NHL player assault has family ties to 2014 Texas house...

[iffeelscouldkill]

Mincéir // An Luch Siúil // The Walking People

my controversial opinion is that real progress in the north won't be achieved until the world decides to consider the native irish people a white indigenous population like the sámi

[triflingthing]

Wild, wild Donegal (Ireland)

[mrkeatingsblazer]

Irish Travellers at hogwarts would be hilarious but I wouldn’t trust jkr to write about them

[cogumellow]

ireland on 35mm film // meath & donegal, ireland // 2005

[librastrai]

settled irish are also currently inflicting everything they underwent to their own indigenous minority in the irish travellers & far worse imo. the hypocrisy astounds & infuriates me to no end, especially from owen jones who will do nothing to acknowledge the ongoing violent oppression or act like ireland have not had a hand in colonization also.

Elica Le Bon

[dragynkeep]

Hey! I was looking through the tags for Romani and Irish Travellers so I could better learn the distinction between the two, and I saw a few posts from you from a year or two ago about how media doesn't portray your culture correctly. I'm now curious—do you have any things about Travellers that you wish WERE shown in TV and movies? As in, what's your wishlist for how you want Traveller characters to be seen?

honestly just a more fleshed out view on us than what we currently have which is a bunch of harmful stereotypes, sensationalized bullshit & "travellers / roma" who aren't even us! they're pretenders, paid by the networks to larp a disgusting piece of propaganda.

there was a movie that came out in 2018 that actually centered a traveller family, float like a butterfly, & while i still do have some criticisms, i think it was a wonderful love letter to the life me & luke recognize through our own experiences. especially in it's inversion of the gender traditionalism that runs rampant through our community & yet still uplifts the female protaganist. i'd highly recommend watching it if you can 💞

[blackwomenrule]

[panoramicireland]

The end of 2024 and a brief moment of colour in the West of Ireland on one of the last visible sunrises.

Happy New Year from Ireland!