#minceiri

[librastrai]

a larger post inspired by @tovezza's dives into the irish treatment of jews in their country cause i am an irish born jew, as well as an irish traveller & the hypocrisy i've seen from goyim regarding recent antisemitism + the i/p conflict is crazy.

they will call jews in the middle east settlers while throwing fits that minceiri, their own indigenous minority population, calls them settled & will throw out the most vile racism in opposition to it. settled irish + their government will prop up the colonization of themselves by the british as a shield against any accusations of racism (as recent as the very current riots in dublin spurred on by anti immigrant racism), & antisemitism (to denying ireland's own lack of action during the holocaust,) & the antisemitism raging in their every day society & now in government who are saying they're "more principled" regarding one of the most complicated sociopolitical conflicts in a region mired by it.

oh really? really, holohan? sympathy for palestinians is rooted in your own history of being colonized (which is used a shield consistently)? you can be more principled about the oppression of an indigenous people (which both palestinians & israelis are)?

explain the 1963 commission by the irish state, regarding the "itinerant problem" of which there was a system plan regarding the forced assimilation of irish travellers / minceiri into settled irish society.

explain how the plan was to sterilize minceiri women against their will, castrate minceiri men & forcibly steal our children, putting them into settled homes or insitutions run by the catholic church which spurred on untold amounts of abuse. abuse we are still healing from. how actions taken against us directly repeat actions taken by the nazis against romani women + men in their camps.

explain the ongoing genocide of minceiri folks that began way before this commission, hundreds of years of violent oppression, of theft, of cultural genocide & restriction to move. how the rate of minceiri folks imprisoned far outweighs our national population. how the camp sites we're forced onto, because our cultural way of life is restricted & criminalized, have no running water, no electricity, barely any food. how they're places you wouldn't even raise dogs, let alone expect humans to survive. not thrive, survive. how all of this is sounding very fucking familiar.

ireland's issue with jewish refugees from the shoah is built upon their insistence that their own indigenous minority, minceiri, refused to assimilate despite being beaten, raped, stolen & they knew they would not be able to do the same to jewish people.

i love my country, i have always loved my country & it's history & the gorgeous place it could become. it is not that place while it is perpetuating antisemitism time & time again, using it's own history of being colonized as a shield against criticism & ignoring it's own bloody, disgusting history of violent colonization & cultural genocde.

jewish people deserve better, irish jews deserve better & minceiri deserve better.

[irish-dress-history]

An early 1600s account of Irish Travellers

This is a bit off topic, since it doesn't discuss clothing, but I'm not apologizing for posting it, because Irish Travellers are a marginalized group whose history is little-documented and under-researched.

This account comes from an Exeter College, Oxford manuscript written c. 1607-1608 by an unknown Anglo-Irish protestant. The writing reflects period-typical anti-Irish bigotry and anti-sex worker prejudice. If there is any truth to what it describes, however, the Irish Travellers deserve some credit for their role in the Elizabethan Era Irish uprisings. According to this author, they acted as an intelligence service for the Irish, disseminating information that helped to coordinate Irish forces in different parts of the country, in addition to supplying Irish troops with food and munitions, and possibly also engaging in guerrilla attacks against English-occupied towns.

I have modernized the spelling, punctuation, and some of the wording to make it easier to read. The original text can be read here.

Exeter College, Oxford, MS 154, folio 59r:

"Another kind of these associations are a roguish kind of people, some are stout beggars, some are professed wh*res, or common women, and are therefore called Traveling women, some kerroghes(1) or gamesters, other counterfeit fools or Jesters, others are messengers, and carriers of letters and the like, and all these do continually travel from feast to feast, from meeting to meeting, all the kingdom over, and are never permanent in any one place, and they live only by begging, and that in such a fashion, as they will constrain men to be liberal unto them, either by railing or otherwise, but under pretense of this covert of beggary, this poison is much enhanced. For, if any matter of negotiation be a foot, and purposed to be spied over among all these idle jealous brood, or if any novelty either foreign or domestic be stirring, or if any revolt or treacherous attempt be intended, these be the instrument, that do whisper them at all times from one to another of all the Irish faction. These be the conduits that carry and convey these Evils from place to place; these do divulge and scatter this reprobate opinion in every corner of that kingdom, and these do join these firebrands together and help to make up a formal fire of all manner of treasons and villainies. Nay, these are often used to set towns and villages on fire in the night time, wherein they be harbored for pity and commiseration of their poverty. And in times of hostility, these do relieve the rebels with victuals and munition and do serve as spies to give all possible intelligences to the enemy of any project intended against them. And without a doubt, this kind of effort is very much used and set to work by the other literate fellowship for conveying of all their devilish devises into all the parts of that kingdom, and the providence of our ancient fathers hath not neglected to provide preventions for their malice and convenient means and ways to suppress them."

(1) kerrogh: cearrbhach: cardplayer or gambler

[dragynkeep]

Hey! American here, Traveller heritage on one side, but settled and mostly cut off. Really appreciate coming across your posts on the topic - in my own travels, it's been rare to meet someone who knows anything about it, and are generally surprised to find out Ireland is host to multiple indigenous ethnicities.

USian, but American is the primary identity I claim, yet it is important to me to know the people I came from. That I've been able to add a little bit more vocabulary to the small amount of Cant I've been fortunate enough to learn is huge for me. Thank you for that.

Be safe,

hi there! we're so glad that you've enjoyed our posts about the experience of being irish travellers / romanichal in ireland & the rest of the uk.

it's amazing you've been able to learn some cant, especially since we've been rather closed off in regards to the language due to the unfortunate racism we face, i have some resources for you below if you want to further it in any way!

infographic card that also includes some basic romanes!

brief history of the languages

a pdf dictionary of shelta words

further dissection into the language but tw for a slur in the title

we hope you have safe travels! 💖

[librastrai]

hi there! i'm a minceir & i'll try to help out as much as i can 💖

minceir/i is the typical name for us & one we most use to self identify. pavee is also used though less frequently, ymmv. travellers is used as the overall, most basic term for the grt (gypsy, roma & traveller) ethnic groups & one you'll likely not go wrong with.

the cant / de gammon / shelta (all different names for the same language) is a pidgin developed from irish, scots gaelic & english but there are different forms of it depending where you're from (us travellers have their own version of cant) & also feature some romanes due to intermixing between our communities.

stray away from referring to anything as "chavvi", anything stereotypical like long skirts & sexualized outfits as these stem from outdated ideals of our community due to young marrying ages. we come in all shapes, sizes & colours! also avoid any "magical gypsy" vibes or horse girl. many of us do love our animals, but there is also a prevalant stereotype that we abuse these animals in our work. having them be a thief / centred around money can also be touchy territory.

i consider my minceir roots to be from ireland, a lot of us are in the republic versus being up in the north due to orders from the crown in the 1100s to eradicate / assimilate us into wider settled irish community.

plenty of us still travel! unfortunately the irish government has made a majority of our travel illegal but we still follow our traditions despite this; only some travellers are in bricks & mortar but are no less traveller for it.

does anyone here have much info on irish travellers, especially cant? i’m still developing a character, i’m thinking of her being a traveller, and want to know if i’d be offensive w anything 😭

uh so a few questions if anyone wants to answer

1. what are some neutral/positive terms in use to travellers? i know lucht siúil in irish, and mincéirí may be in cant..? i know basically nothing, i only found out one of the terms i thought was neutral was actually a slur from a romani tiktoker 😭

2. where is cant developed from? what would be the correct name for it? any info on the language is welcome lol

3. things to avoid in the character/character design (i wont be basing much around her ethnicity anyway, if anything).

4. where do you consider your roots to be from? ireland, england, norse, even if theres a region that would help a lot

5. do much travellers still travel? like are they still nomads?

literally ANY info would be welcome, i know nothing and cant find much 😭

[lesbiansandgayssupporttheminers]

I sort of don’t want to make light of this, but this does illustrate an excellent point.

I’ve met so many people who just don’t recognise prejudice against GRT people as racism.

Although, we’re very reluctant to also recognise the many examples of American style racism in Europe, too.

[acebreathesfire]

To recap: in 2021, the UK is enacting a law specifically targeting and criminalizing GRT people, a law that even police forces say is counterproductive, and world media’s reaction is ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.

NB: if you think this is the thread in which to air your grievances against Romani or Travellers, I promise you this is not the place.

Article here. https://www.travellerstimes.org.uk/news/2021/03/new-anti-traveller-laws-set-criminalise-nomadic-way-life

[librastrai]

remembering when i saw a tweet that said "ireland should do the right of return, it would make more sense than israel" & like in what world does ireland do the right of return while actively culturally genociding & restricting movement of their own indigenous ethnic minority? of minceiri & roma & other nomadic subgroups under the grt label?

the audacity that the english gave youse by providing fodder for this victim complex is insane.

[butchesanddykesandqueersohmy]

I mean the minceiri exist and it took wider Irish society fucking till 2017 to recognise us as indigenous

Like I get the point your making and I don't disagree but also literally fucking look at how you all have been doing it to us for fucking centuries right alongside the English

my controversial opinion is that real progress in the north won't be achieved until the world decides to consider the native irish people a white indigenous population like the sámi

[librastrai]

Um can we not compare white goy conflict to the shoah

when the "conflict" is an outright genocide that took direct inspiration from speech markers not even 20 years after the end of the shoah, no. this did not only affect travellers in celtic countries + england, this also affected the romanichal / kale population that we have been deeply entwined with for over 200 years & even if it was just "white goy" travellers, the rhetoric remains.

these are all part of my identity & who i am & when i recognize markers seen both in a government commission meant to forcibly remove my people from existence & in national speeches from a deranged mustache man, i'm going to call it out. you can respectfully sit & swivel.

[librastrai]

oooh my god the sami people and romani people LOOK very obviously other, you're so fucking dumb it's not funny?!?!?! missing the point each time just to cry fake tears

are you genuinely trying to say that jews, even "white jews" havent been racialized as "other' for well over millennia?? or are you just wanting to play dumb

esp when many roma in the uk are indistinguishable from travellers like shut the fuck up lmao

[librastrai]

anyways one day grt folk will be able to travel freely on our own lands without the irish government criminalizing us for it & portraying us as dirty thieves & vagrants. all while claiming a moral superiority they never earned.

[dragynkeep]

rwby fans & critics alike, listen to affected minorities about issues we raise. it's really that simple, especially since 99% of the fndm's exposure to romani / minceiri people is esmeralda. this isn't an area for anon to devalue criticism by saying it's "just a racoon being apparently racist".

ty op 💕

People treating you like your valid criticism is pure hate when there's another rwde person losing their shit because a cartoon raccoon is RWBY being racist apearantly

While I appreciate the support on my end, perhaps listen to the other RWDE person on Jinxy. RWBY has been known to be very racist, so I won't be surprised to see them targeting Romani people this time with the raccoon.

Don't come to my inbox praising me, then proceed to be ignorant about other RWDE posters. Especially when they're also part of a minority group.

[librastrai]

Wow I've literally never heard of the Minceiri or the Irish government's mistreatment of them - thank you for bringing this to my attention, you have a fascinating history I hope to learn more about.

-- Much love from a fellow Jew, stay safe <3

tysm my love. if you ever need any resources to further look into please send another ask & i'll pop them in ♡

[librastrai]

Jews and rromani are not white under any condition. You just said that white travelers are conditionally white (they are always white). Jews and rromani are never white because they are jewish/romani

do you think that genuinely matters to those who want them eradicated in the very same country that groups them together with irish travellers. the romanichal & traveller communities have been deeply entwined for over 2 centuries to the point that we were not differentiated under the commission that outright called for genocide while taking quotes verbatim from shitler.

conditional whiteness regarding travellers means that we are not to be brought into white society, we are seen as dirty & to be exterminated, genocided. the colour of our skin never mattered. all this & your own racism against irish travellers because i dare point out the dangerous origin of the commission's take on "itinerants" from a country that now postures a moral supremacy over it's jewish population for a conflict they know nothing about? why bring this to my door as an irish gypsy jew? i know the complexities of my ethnicities & i'm not obligated to defend them to a faceless pig.

[librastrai]

Honestly I think the anons sending asks about how minceiri are just white people aren't Irish or even connected to Ireland in any way. Like there's no way somebody can be Irish and not see first hand the atrocious way a lot of people speak about and act towards minceiri. Afaik, nobody in my family has any anti-minceiri sentiment and I'm still very, very aware of its existence because it's just so prevalent and normalised here.

yeah like. no minceir is going to deny we're white, we know this & aren't actively stating otherwise; what we are saying is that the privileges of societal whiteness are never afforded to us unless we actively conceal who we are.

we had american people of colour devolving to slurs last year because a minceir woman had gained the position meant for an ethnic minority, which meant minceir people in this specific context. but because she was white & therefore automatically had all the trims & trappings of white privilege, she was harassed for weeks on social media, called slurs & denied her own experiences with racism.

i've lived in bricks & mortar for over 20 years at this point, i am still known by a slur first rather than my actual ethnic name & my family came to live this way because of racist violence & oppression. until a lot of people start to come to terms with this & realize that a lot of oppression doesn't follow the very non neat lines of racial divides, nothing will change. & that breaks my heart.

[librastrai]

Just wanted to say I'm sorry you have such obnoxious people talking over you about the status of Irish travellers. You're bringing up some VERY important points and they need to sit down, shut up, and listen.

tysm 💖 sadly it's not a new opinion i've come across but it's especially disgusting from fellow jews who won't listen to how these two bigotries intersect in very specific ways that're now informing both antisemitism & anti traveller racism from the irish government.