#minceiri

[irish-dress-history]

An early 1600s account of Irish Travellers

This is a bit off topic, since it doesn't discuss clothing, but I'm not apologizing for posting it, because Irish Travellers are a marginalized group whose history is little-documented and under-researched.

This account comes from an Exeter College, Oxford manuscript written c. 1607-1608 by an unknown Anglo-Irish protestant. The writing reflects period-typical anti-Irish bigotry and anti-sex worker prejudice. If there is any truth to what it describes, however, the Irish Travellers deserve some credit for their role in the Elizabethan Era Irish uprisings. According to this author, they acted as an intelligence service for the Irish, disseminating information that helped to coordinate Irish forces in different parts of the country, in addition to supplying Irish troops with food and munitions, and possibly also engaging in guerrilla attacks against English-occupied towns.

I have modernized the spelling, punctuation, and some of the wording to make it easier to read. The original text can be read here.

Exeter College, Oxford, MS 154, folio 59r:

"Another kind of these associations are a roguish kind of people, some are stout beggars, some are professed wh*res, or common women, and are therefore called Traveling women, some kerroghes(1) or gamesters, other counterfeit fools or Jesters, others are messengers, and carriers of letters and the like, and all these do continually travel from feast to feast, from meeting to meeting, all the kingdom over, and are never permanent in any one place, and they live only by begging, and that in such a fashion, as they will constrain men to be liberal unto them, either by railing or otherwise, but under pretense of this covert of beggary, this poison is much enhanced. For, if any matter of negotiation be a foot, and purposed to be spied over among all these idle jealous brood, or if any novelty either foreign or domestic be stirring, or if any revolt or treacherous attempt be intended, these be the instrument, that do whisper them at all times from one to another of all the Irish faction. These be the conduits that carry and convey these Evils from place to place; these do divulge and scatter this reprobate opinion in every corner of that kingdom, and these do join these firebrands together and help to make up a formal fire of all manner of treasons and villainies. Nay, these are often used to set towns and villages on fire in the night time, wherein they be harbored for pity and commiseration of their poverty. And in times of hostility, these do relieve the rebels with victuals and munition and do serve as spies to give all possible intelligences to the enemy of any project intended against them. And without a doubt, this kind of effort is very much used and set to work by the other literate fellowship for conveying of all their devilish devises into all the parts of that kingdom, and the providence of our ancient fathers hath not neglected to provide preventions for their malice and convenient means and ways to suppress them."

(1) kerrogh: cearrbhach: cardplayer or gambler

[dragynkeep]

Hey! American here, Traveller heritage on one side, but settled and mostly cut off. Really appreciate coming across your posts on the topic - in my own travels, it's been rare to meet someone who knows anything about it, and are generally surprised to find out Ireland is host to multiple indigenous ethnicities.

USian, but American is the primary identity I claim, yet it is important to me to know the people I came from. That I've been able to add a little bit more vocabulary to the small amount of Cant I've been fortunate enough to learn is huge for me. Thank you for that.

Be safe,

hi there! we're so glad that you've enjoyed our posts about the experience of being irish travellers / romanichal in ireland & the rest of the uk.

it's amazing you've been able to learn some cant, especially since we've been rather closed off in regards to the language due to the unfortunate racism we face, i have some resources for you below if you want to further it in any way!

infographic card that also includes some basic romanes!

brief history of the languages

a pdf dictionary of shelta words

further dissection into the language but tw for a slur in the title

we hope you have safe travels! 💖

[librastrai]

hi there! i'm a minceir & i'll try to help out as much as i can 💖

minceir/i is the typical name for us & one we most use to self identify. pavee is also used though less frequently, ymmv. travellers is used as the overall, most basic term for the grt (gypsy, roma & traveller) ethnic groups & one you'll likely not go wrong with.

the cant / de gammon / shelta (all different names for the same language) is a pidgin developed from irish, scots gaelic & english but there are different forms of it depending where you're from (us travellers have their own version of cant) & also feature some romanes due to intermixing between our communities.

stray away from referring to anything as "chavvi", anything stereotypical like long skirts & sexualized outfits as these stem from outdated ideals of our community due to young marrying ages. we come in all shapes, sizes & colours! also avoid any "magical gypsy" vibes or horse girl. many of us do love our animals, but there is also a prevalant stereotype that we abuse these animals in our work. having them be a thief / centred around money can also be touchy territory.

i consider my minceir roots to be from ireland, a lot of us are in the republic versus being up in the north due to orders from the crown in the 1100s to eradicate / assimilate us into wider settled irish community.

plenty of us still travel! unfortunately the irish government has made a majority of our travel illegal but we still follow our traditions despite this; only some travellers are in bricks & mortar but are no less traveller for it.

does anyone here have much info on irish travellers, especially cant? i’m still developing a character, i’m thinking of her being a traveller, and want to know if i’d be offensive w anything 😭

uh so a few questions if anyone wants to answer

1. what are some neutral/positive terms in use to travellers? i know lucht siúil in irish, and mincéirí may be in cant..? i know basically nothing, i only found out one of the terms i thought was neutral was actually a slur from a romani tiktoker 😭

2. where is cant developed from? what would be the correct name for it? any info on the language is welcome lol

3. things to avoid in the character/character design (i wont be basing much around her ethnicity anyway, if anything).

4. where do you consider your roots to be from? ireland, england, norse, even if theres a region that would help a lot

5. do much travellers still travel? like are they still nomads?

literally ANY info would be welcome, i know nothing and cant find much 😭

[gldnbrdgs]

GLDNBRDGS DECOR + HEADCANNONS!

Owner info: 18 yo intersex gaybian - Romani, minceiri, slav + celt. I like videogames, check out @peterstakh if you wanna be friends

What I do: graphics, decor, pfps, headcannons, rentry templates, ID packs

What I don't do: anything on my DNI, any headcannons for real ppl (will do layouts with pride flags though), anything relating to DSMP, Vizviepop, Hetalia or countryhumans, or anything that's proshippy

DNI (I don't expect this to be followed but just a heads up I will block you if you're into this type of stuff I will block you, and I'd rather you not use my graphics) : homophobic, sexist, racist, etc, Zionists, against good faith/complex labels, endo systems, IRLs, anti kin, excessive font users, transid/radinclus/pedo shit. Please also keep in mind I'm an adult

My tags:

#✚　　decor

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[lesbiansandgayssupporttheminers]

I sort of don’t want to make light of this, but this does illustrate an excellent point.

I’ve met so many people who just don’t recognise prejudice against GRT people as racism.

Although, we’re very reluctant to also recognise the many examples of American style racism in Europe, too.

[librastrai]

can confirm as someone who's half irish traveller, settled (& some v self hating travellers) irish cannot handle the way that israel is a successful landback movement & project their feelings of england's oppression onto israel / jews to feel "solidarity" with palestine while ignoring their own violent oppression of minceiri, an indigenous minority to ireland itself. it's such a weird cognitive dissonance that makes complete sense when you dive deeper into this treatment & how their treatment of the "itinerant problem" paralleled the "jewish question" to a lesser degree.

also "europeans created the worst kind of antisemitism & invented antisemitism all together—" loud incorrect buzzer. when people stop ignoring for the arab world's violent & insidious antisemitism, then we'll actually know some form of peace.

This says so much about leftist/anarchist antisemites, really. The mark of True Indigeneity is being "spiritually incapable" of uprooting a fucking TREE?! Fetishizing Palestinians as some kind of flower-children who Live In Harmony With Nature, incapable of the evils of land development? Amanda, I think you need to find a better way of dealing with your own ancestral guilt.

[librastrai]

never forget when someone said that me calling myself indigenous as a minceir was "right wing propaganda" bc the dumb cunt who said it didn't know the difference between settled irish & minceiri. they also denied jewish indigineaity & this shit is so interlinked its foul, esp from another indigenous person was looked white as hell

[butchesanddykesandqueersohmy]

I mean the minceiri exist and it took wider Irish society fucking till 2017 to recognise us as indigenous

Like I get the point your making and I don't disagree but also literally fucking look at how you all have been doing it to us for fucking centuries right alongside the English

my controversial opinion is that real progress in the north won't be achieved until the world decides to consider the native irish people a white indigenous population like the sámi

[librastrai]

horseshoe theory this, horseshoe spectrum that, wrong!

horseshoe on the traveller movement flag 💚💜💛🤍

[librastrai]

remembering a book (scarlett by cathy cassidy) from my childhood & being pleasantly surprised with the traveller representation in it, even with how little it takes up of the story. would v much recommend it ❤

[librastrai]

Um can we not compare white goy conflict to the shoah

when the "conflict" is an outright genocide that took direct inspiration from speech markers not even 20 years after the end of the shoah, no. this did not only affect travellers in celtic countries + england, this also affected the romanichal / kale population that we have been deeply entwined with for over 200 years & even if it was just "white goy" travellers, the rhetoric remains.

these are all part of my identity & who i am & when i recognize markers seen both in a government commission meant to forcibly remove my people from existence & in national speeches from a deranged mustache man, i'm going to call it out. you can respectfully sit & swivel.

[librastrai]

oooh my god the sami people and romani people LOOK very obviously other, you're so fucking dumb it's not funny?!?!?! missing the point each time just to cry fake tears

are you genuinely trying to say that jews, even "white jews" havent been racialized as "other' for well over millennia?? or are you just wanting to play dumb

esp when many roma in the uk are indistinguishable from travellers like shut the fuck up lmao

[librastrai]

anyways one day grt folk will be able to travel freely on our own lands without the irish government criminalizing us for it & portraying us as dirty thieves & vagrants. all while claiming a moral superiority they never earned.

[librastrai]

Wow I've literally never heard of the Minceiri or the Irish government's mistreatment of them - thank you for bringing this to my attention, you have a fascinating history I hope to learn more about.

-- Much love from a fellow Jew, stay safe <3

tysm my love. if you ever need any resources to further look into please send another ask & i'll pop them in ♡

[librastrai]

Just wanted to say I'm sorry you have such obnoxious people talking over you about the status of Irish travellers. You're bringing up some VERY important points and they need to sit down, shut up, and listen.

tysm 💖 sadly it's not a new opinion i've come across but it's especially disgusting from fellow jews who won't listen to how these two bigotries intersect in very specific ways that're now informing both antisemitism & anti traveller racism from the irish government.