#imperfect victims

[lyselkatzfandomluvs]

Zhou Xùn 周迅

Elle China - November 2023 (2/2)

[blackswallowtailbutterfly]

So I made a post a while back where I was saying sometimes deeply unpleasant, unlikeable, untrustworthy women are abused by men and it doesn’t make them any less victims or the men who abuse them any less monsters. In that same vein, stupid women too can be abused by men.

Some of those men will also be stupid because it doesn’t take much to fool a stupid person. Takes a fair bit more to fool a smart person, though there are a lot of personal factors involved too. Like an extremely intelligent man who seemed to be an extremely intelligent woman’s ideal in every way might not fool a stupid woman because, say, a stellar education, is not her ideal. And what’s more, a relatively intelligent person can still make some pretty stupid decisions.

The point is, “stupid” is used as such a pejorative that the knee-jerk reaction is to reject it. So a woman, with access to a wealth of information of men destroying the lives of their female partners decides to ignore it and go for a traditional-style marriage where she gives up on working independently and gives him complete financial control, only to later find herself as one of those women. That decision was stupid. She wasn’t acting with the best information she had, she chose to ignore it in favour of an ideal and with no safeguards other than those already put in place by feminists before her. It’s not smart. But it also doesn’t mean she deserved it or that she shouldn’t be shown compassion.

A man offering a traditional marriage worked on her because that’s what she wanted. A man offering that to me, I’d tell him to get fucked. But a man matching my ideal in every way? Yeah, I’d go for it. I’d have safeguards, sure. Separate bank accounts, wouldn’t move away to where I don’t know anyone. But that doesn’t mean I wouldn’t be susceptible to psychological manipulation over time.

I’d say in general a woman partnering with a man is ill-advised. And I will die on the hill that it is just not a big deal for some women in one corner of the internet to tell OSA women to just not do it, and the defensiveness shown by some women in radblr towards this is completely unwarranted. I will agree that it’s not helpful to go “nyah nyah!” in response to a woman ending up abused by a male partner.

But then the knee-jerk response is that voluntarily giving up financial independence to a man is somehow not a stupid decision because she wanted an ideal that is often glorified. But is a stupid decision. This isn’t something where she grew up in a community where only those outsider women work but proper women within the community submit to their husbands (though there are plenty of those types of insular communities), this is “why did those silly feminists make us work when we could have just sat at home making crafts?” We know why. The information’s easily accessible. Choosing to give up independence to a man if there any viable options is never a smart decision.

Some victims of abuse are stupid. Because some people in general are stupid. And not all abusers are master manipulators. There’s this tendency to romanticize victims. They’re presented as smart, as kind, as hard-working, as selfless, etc. taken advantage of by a man almost any OSA woman would fall for, and that does describe some victims. It’s usually the ones we hear from. The “face”, if you will. The ones who are easy to sympathize with.

But in reality, there are cowardly victims, there are stupid victims, selfish, lazy, mean victims. Women you wouldn’t like. Women who, if they were in a position of authority, could themselves be abusive. See: women in abusive relationships who also abuse their own children. And there’s everything in between. Stupid women who are kind, selfless, hard-working, and brave. Smart women who are kind, selfless, and hard-working but cowardly. Hard-working women who are brave but mean and selfish, etc..

Abuse is about power. And there is no one personality trait that determines who has the power in a relationship. Men almost always have the physical power, and often have the financial and social power as well. Our society is set up for the latter two, the first is simply biology. It’s not men dying by the thousands each year due to intimate partner violence. There are more women under the poverty line than men as well.

I want you to think of the worst woman you know, and I want you to understand and accept that she could have been, could be, or could become a victim of a man’s abuse, and that it may not be the cause of her own toxic behaviour (though prolonged abuse can definitely cause personality changes in some people) but rather coincidental to it. Now I want you to think of a woman you love, the best woman you know. I want you to understand that if she has been, is currently, or becomes a victim of a man’s abuse, she is not more of a victim than the other woman.

Feminism is for both of them. Women are people--I’d argue better people than men, but still people, and incredibly varied. Patriarchy comes for us all. None of us deserve it. And so I think responding to “haha! dumbass should have known better!” with “she’s not stupid for falling for an ideal!” in spite having access to information that would have told her to have some safeguards is...well-meaning but missing the mark. “Ha ha, that’s what you get for being stupid!” and “No! She’s not stupid!” both rest on the idea that a real victim can’t be stupid or that she (at least somewhat) deserves it if she is.

[transhawks]

Maybe I want too much but like three and a half years after the reveal you think more people would write a canonly accurate Dabi, in which he's less wanting revenge over the abuse and more just upset and obsessed with being discarded. Like I've resigned myself to fanon Dabi being everywhere but sometimes I pause and just wish people could be okay with the idea Touya adored his father and his motivation is being thrown away by him, not that he was "pushed" to be better, because we know Endeavor did the exact opposite in canon.

I don't know, I just like that dynamic more. I like the Dabi who screams in jealousy that Shouto has amounted to nothing even with abuse and seems to even wish he could have been in Shouto's place despite knowing what his kid brother has been too. I like the rage at being replaced and cast aside, I like the entitlement that comes from being so close and so far to fulfilling his father's dream and the yearning to be looked at. And yeah, I also like the uncomfortable idea that for the first three or years of fatherhood Endeavor actually had a kid who loved him before he ruined it all.

It makes all the more ugly how it turned out, and far more human to realize how much Dabi craves his father's attention and when this is now such a core part of his character, why am I rarely able to see it in fic? Why are people so against portraying a Dabi who loved his father and wished exactly to be what he wanted at one time? I don't think this Endeavor apologia, wanting to see the canonly written dynamic between them? It just feels like we can't leave 2020 in characterization.

[juanitasupreme]

A part of me still can't fathom how collectively and proudly stupid people were during the Heard vs Depp trial. Like supporting that man was just a trend or based from a recollection you had of him in the 90's. No brain was used

[honestlyvan]

Looking at the latest discourse on my dash as someone who's been in anger management and detachment therapy sure is an experience.

[hecksupremechips]

Honestly shoutout to Steven Universe for the representation of malachite and abusive relationships because it holds up really well and is still like one of the only abuse narratives I’ve seen that portrays how like. Abusive relationships aren’t as simple as “evil abusive person was constantly Mean and Bad to nice victim” like. Lapis is a realistic victim. She refused to leave the relationship because she longed to have connection with someone and she liked feeling as though she could have control for once, even though she really didn’t. She wasn’t nice and innocent, she felt anger and resentment and liked taking it out on Jasper. And despite how horrible it was, she deeply misses Jasper because it was the longest and deepest relationship she’s ever had with anyone and she didn’t know how to function without it

But Lapis is still a victim and we’re meant to care for her and understand where she comes from. She chose to stay with Jasper to keep others safe from her harm, and because she thought she herself deserved the abuse as a way of making up for everything bad she’s done. Jasper reminds Lapis over and over that she is a monster and that’s why they should be together, because Jasper is the only one who understands her. And when Lapis finally rejects their relationship, she mostly states it through what she herself felt and has done, saying that she didn’t like the person she became in that relationship and she never wants to feel like that ever again. It’s messy and complicated, just like how actual abuse is

Anyways yeah talk about a very good abuse narrative thanks steven universe

[stenshale]

actually “the man Anders is honorbound to kill was his ex-lover in every playthrough, but if your player character is a woman, he doesn’t mention it because his writer wanted the player to be able to decide he’s heterosexual” is such a gross thing to say about your video game. Yeah he’s canonically bisexual but you can ignore that if you think it’s icky ^_^

[runraerun]

🦋 • billy hargrove + billie eilish (BLUE)

[dukeofthomas]

"Angry robin" "violent robin" "misbehaving robin" shut up and accept my alternative; spunky Robin. Determined and head strong, can out-stubborn the Batman, has a strong moral-backbone and does what he thinks is right regardless of what anybody else says, Robin. Jason who was sassy and quippy and made crude jokes with a smile on his face. Jason who hid in Bruce's cape and whispered gossip to him. Jason who, if Bruce refused him something, could keep bothering endlessly until Bruce caved. And also dramatic Jason. If Bruce tells him no, it becomes a whole theatrical show; a monologue, a narration, embellishments, and falling onto the floor in his grief upon the fact his cruel father has denied him once again.

(Jason who has suffered through abuse and homelessness and poverty and starvation, who is the Fight out of Fight or Flight, who's built up defenses and walls and when pushed and triggered responds with the thing that's always protected him; anger. He's sweet and kind and funny, and when he sees a pimp hitting a prostitute he gets furious and responds with violence.)

[evie-doesnt-write]

“Wille has gone through so fucking much from his shitty, neglectful, psychologically abusive parents, the death of Erik, the betrayal of August, his and Simon’s relationship issues, his mother becoming sick, finding out Erik was a homophobe, and so fucking much more, and he’s just a kid whose only support are his one friend and his boyfriend who are facing their own problems and nobody can blame him for not knowing how to deal with his emotions and having breakdowns” and “Wille is extremely flawed (as are everyone in this show) and never having been taught how how to deal with his emotions and problems in a healthy way and having little to no support system doesn’t change or excuse the fact that he constantly projects onto Simon, has internalised the mindset that Simon’s problems are far lesser than him, often behaves inconsiderate towards him and doesn’t listen or listen to Simon when he tries to talk to him and these are things he will need to work on, especially if he wants to keep a relationship with Simon” are not mutually exclusive statements

[lyselkatzfandomluvs]

Zhou Xùn 周迅

Elle China - November 2023 (1/2)

[skeletorg]

take the reins captain

[dolores-slay]

Currently thinking about how Touga is terrible but he's also a teenage abuse victim who sees becoming like his abuser as the only way to reclaim some modicum of power and thus agency. And Saionji loving him so profoundly that he arguably comes back into Ohtori because of him, but having no tools to express that love in any healthy way, both due to his own emotional ineptitude and buying into the most surface level trappings of toxic masculinity (physical domination, anger, violence, competition) AND due to not knowing what to do to ever reach Touga. Touga is in a way a parallel to Anthy, in that they're in a sense Akio's longest victims, but the way the system everyone is in convinces Touga that the poison he's swallowing is what props him up above other victims, particularly women, means he's happy to remain a cog in the carousel.

[astro-b-o-y-d]

If I say Ford should be allowed to exist as an imperfect victim of abuse without being shamed for falling for that abuse while also being allowed to be viewed as an ass at points, will the fandom flay me alive on both sides?

[blood-choke]

Oh my God wait I have more to say on that. If you need the full scene I'm quoting: https://youtu.be/63708PykTcg?si=Bws3wyRs_TkyxPaH prepare for a lot of yapping

Hear me out. It's the "I don't like to share." Val has made it v clear she doesn't like the thought of sharing mc with Hana and clear bc of her own fears and anxiety surrounding her relationship with mc who remembers nothing about their life together.

and the "what about antionette?" "It's different I don't have feelings for her." Hana feels like the antionette to val bc, and these are just my thoughts from reading, we can see that val does care for Hana to some degree but never to the degree that she does with mc. Or maybe she does and just hides it to keep from getting attached like she was with mc and keeping Hana safe from being another one of the councils victims 🤔

And lastly the "that's bc you TOOK my life" is really getting my brain going. Especially since we see mc begin to question whether or not she wanted this life. Like, the potential behind it is putting me through the wall rn

Anyways you don't have to respond to any of this I just wanted to yap and share these thoughts bc BOY does blood choke get me thinking

hehehe yes i do think Valentina can be quite similar to Lestat in some aspects, particularly with her relationship with mc.

and you're right, she does care about Hana... in her own fucked up way. she keeps her more at a distance than she ever did mc because of that loss, which she is still mourning (even now with the mc back. she's not the mc she remembers) and she just was never able to open herself up completely to Hana. Valentina has treated both Hana and the mc terribly in the past (and the mc, at least, treated her just as bad, too, while Hana more or less just took it silently). she does care about Hana, but with the mc-shaped hole in her chest, she isn't sure how to express it, and now that the mc is back, she feels conflicted about her feelings & wants to show her devotion solely to the mc. and obviously she will get jealous of Hana (or Clear) because unless the mc brings it up, she won't share. exactly because of her anxieties (the loss of memories and how that may lead to mc choosing someone else completely) and she's actually fearful that the mc may judge her or be angry herself about Valentina's relationship with Hana (the mc was a jealous person in her past life). obviously their relationship was never Perfect, but Valentina is definitely being crueler to Hana than she ever has been before, almost like she's "showing off" for the mc, and even trying to drive Hana away. (you can potentially call her out on this in the next chapter)

and because of this Hana is realizing that even though she took the abuse and was always there for Valentina, it doesn't matter; mc is back and that's all Valentina cares about. (even if it's not necessarily 100% true-- to Hana, all she feels is that she's being discarded). that's what prompts her confrontation/conversation with the mc in ch3.

going forward there's a chance for this to change, depending on how the mc approaches the two. even if you're not romancing Hana in the poly there are still opportunities to include her (or exclude her, if you want. you can explore that route, too) and with the mc back, Valentina can potentially open herself up more to Hana than she was able to before, platonically or romantically, with mc's urging.

honestly i feel that Hana was more directly inspired by aspects of Claudia's character than Valentina with Lestat (they just happen to be similarly obsessed with mc/Louis respectively). and while i don't necessarily like to say one choice is "bad" i will say being cruel to Hana does have consequences. but i'm still writing it because i want that to be an option to explore specifically with Hana's character, and i don't necessarily want it to feel like a punishment to the player, but this game isn't exactly a feel-good game, and i do plan to make it hurt. lol

and as for your last point... yes it IS interesting. we'll probably never know if the mc was really consenting at that time (can any human really consent when eternal life is beyond their scope of understanding?) and it just adds another fuzzy layer to the messy onion that is her relationship with Valentina.

[pumakaji64]

Every now and then I remember Shuuji Kayama and how his arc is one big metaphor for what it's like to grow up instilled with venomous self-hatred and how it turns you cruel towards others and yourself- how it's about falling victim to the cycle and growing up to become yet another chain in the harm but also how it can consume you and destroy you completely-

BUT there's still hope in his story- hope that he can break free with the right support and guidance- with a wake-up call and a better role-model- and not only learn how to love himself but start the journey on getting better and doing better to those he's hurt along the way- because Lopmon is both his victim and himself and I-