#if you actually want to try to make someone a byler i would start with a comp of all their scenes tg and then a comp of mike/el

[ghostlycleric]

Okay so I’m gonna predict how byler-full parts of st5 marketing will be, and then I’ll come back to this post after each thing to see if I’m right.

DISCLAIMER: THIS IS FOR FUN. I HAVE NO INSIDER INFORMATION. THIS IS JUST BASED ON VIBES. I’M NOT CLAIMING ANY OF THIS TO BE ACCURATE. THIS IS JUST FOR FUN.

So I thought the pre-production and filming era would be m*leven postive, but they’ve barely been mentioned and have one official st5 picture where they’re on the same screen together. And it was from the very start of filming well over a year ago. I’m still absolutely baffled by how byler positive marketing has been so far. Even so, I’m trying to keep my expectations low, and I feel like as actual marketing starts things will probably change.

[A lot of the terms I’m using are usually used interchangeably. For this post they mean: Teaser Trailer: a minute or less of blink and you’ll miss it clips throughout the volume. Teaser: a minute or less of one basically uninterrupted clip of a scene from st5 (ex. Welcome to California for st4). Trailer: Over a minute blink and you’ll miss it clips that come out no sooner than a month before the season itself releases.]

Volume 1 Marketing Predictions

Teaser Trailer(s): Def m*leven positive, maybe even byler negative/not even there. Teasers mainly show where our characters start off, so if m*leven is together at the start of st5 then they’ll be shown together in the teaser. My only hope for byler content in the teaser is if they continue the og party marketing they’ve been doing since production marketing kicked off.

Actual Teaser Trailer(s): TBD

Teaser(s): Slightly more likey to be byler neutral than a teaser trailer. I don’t even know if we’ll get teasers like we did for st4 and st3. They’re super off the usual schedule with all this, but if we do, I can see byler being shown in some way in a teaser. Like if they show living situations, and if Will really is living with the Wheelers, I can see us getting something like that.

Actual Teaser(s): TBD

Trailer(s): At least byler neutral, maybe byler pos? I think they spend so much time together this season that it wouldn’t make sense to not market them in the trailers. I could also see them marketing m*leven right up into the release of vol1, which is why I think it could be byler neutral. I think we’ll have scenes of byler together but also scenes of m*leven together. It’ll be insanely suspicious if neither pair appears together in the trailer at all.

Actual Trailer(s): TBD

Poster(s): Byler pos, just like in st4. Again they spend so much time together that the posters will likely reflect that. And when I say byler pos I mean they might like be looking at eachother or smth. And I don’t mean the the floating head/body posters, I mean the ones with actual backgrounds (if we even get those😭)

Actual Poster(s): TBD

Interviews: M*leven pos/byler teasey. I think interviews are going to stay nearly the same. If they drop anything like “if you’ve been watching the show, you should know [Will’s] not interested in El. He’s interested in someone else in the group” again I’d actually be shell shocked. I would never recover. I think Finn will continue saying m*leven pos stuff, and other cast members may tease byler while still saying m*leven pos stuff. They know byler is popular, and I think even with byler endgame we could be getting some byler neg stuff just to throw us off😭

Actual Interviews: TBD

If you have any different predictions and wants to share or make their your post like this I’d love to see them. I’ll update this post as I think of more things to predict, but I won’t change my predictions after the target media is released.

[whynotimtired]

I don't want to be mean but you all sound batshit when you try to convince milkvans byler is real by talking about pure subtext and color theory and "Mike was checking Will out in this scene!!!" there's CLEAR plausible deniability in your own interpretation of someone's acting. The duffers intentionally kept it all vague enough that most people wouldn't figure it out until they get the chance to shove it into people's faces and if the majority of people look at the scene you're analyzing and go "aww they're finally friends again yay" and you go "Mike was blatantly checking wills ass out in the beginning" when...he was taking a breath to settle and prepare to reconcile with someone he's been "off" with for a year... you end up sounding a little insane. Those types of takes are subjective, and you can make a funny video with zooms implying that that's what he was doing but actively trying to convince someone your headcannon is canon will almost always make you sound deranged.

There's a reason you don't go up to milkvans and go "b-but blue meets yellow in the west" and start talking about the intricacies of making film and how everything is on purpose, that stuff isn't for normies. Analysts love that shit but to someone who just watches the show for fun they hear you say all that and go "you're reaching" because you took someone who is at a zero and shoved them into a thousand without showing them why you ACTUALLY ship byler and just tried to prove that it's real

[teambyler]

The most hypocritical anti Byler argument:

"Why can't two boys just be friends? Why do you have to make everything gay!?"

Whenever I hear this argument or some variation of it, I think back to my two cousins, one a girl and the other a boy. (He was from my dad's side of the family; she was from my mom's.) They were maybe six years old at the time, and they were innocently talking and playing and giving each other math and spelling-bee quizzes. ALL my family were giggling, saying they were going to be boyfriend and girlfriend.

I also think back to all the times I see young girls being judged on their physical beauty and told they're going to have a handsome boy when they grow up because they're so pretty.

From childhood, boys and girls have their sexuality assumed for them. Their SEXUALITY and romantic possibility are talked about openly in front of their face. They're made to look at themselves sexually before they even want to.

So when people yell at Byler fans saying "Why do you have to make everything gay?" I want to scream at them:

"Why do you have to make everything straight!?"

Why do you insist on sexualizing children to be heterosexual even before they're ready to start thinking of themselves in those terms?

Why do you have no problem with Mike kissing El in season 1 right after she asks him if he's like her "brother"?

Why do you idealize their relationship when they were children, while simultaneously trying to shame Byler fans for trying to "sexualize children" even though these are fictional characters and the actors who play Mike and Will are already adults?

Why do you shame any thought or possibility of homosexual romance, while imposing heterosexual norms on everyone?

It reminds me of people who say "You can be gay of course... just don't shove it in our faces (by holding forth that you're gay, kissing in public, etc.)." When no one bats an eye when straight people do the same thing. They might claim they're not homophobic, but actual equal treatment of LGBT+ people they don't accept.

It's Straight Privilege in action: the norms and standards that straight people enjoy quietly do not to apply to us.

This hypocrisy even distorts how Milkvans view Mike and El. We're told that if Mike and Will get together, that would mean Mike "used El" and El would never be able to forgive him.

Not only does this disregard that people can have amicable break-ups and still be close friends: it also shows that the idea of a platonic loving relationship between a Mike and El is beyond their comprehension. To them, the only loving relationships boys and girls can have with each other are romantic ones.

(Now, before anyone objects: sure many people accept Robin and Steve, but that's because Robin is canonically gay. We all know that before she came out many of us (me included!) were shipping those two as a couple!)

If someone ships Mike and El WITHOUT her confronting him about his poor treatment of her in early s4, without there being an honest conversation about that, this definitely raises an eyebrow from me. The "love confession" didn't address this: his fear of losing her did NOT explain his failing to comfort her or failing to say he loved her. Theoretically it's possible for these two to repair things. (And if Milkvan is endgame I hope that they do by addressing this!) But for some Milkvan shippers the need to address Mike's behavior doesn't even enter their minds because they're idealizing their relationship. In other words, THEY are imposing their idea of a relationship on these two, much in the same way my family was imposing their own ideas on my two cousins without regard to the people involved.

So if anyone asks "Why can't two boys just be friends? Why do you have to make everything gay?" it's purely hypocritical and dishonest. No, we just want THIS relationship between Mike and Will (which is clearly being built up as romantic) to be gay out of a sea of heterosexual relationships on TV.

No. THEY are the ones who rule out a boy and girl just being friends. THEY are the ones who insist on imposing romance on a boy and girl when they're not ready. THEY are the ones who insist on "everything" being one way.

-teambyler

[love-byers]

alright. i'm taking it upon myself to put something to rest.

there is a new mlvn argument on the market, and i have to say, it is the absolute most BACKWARDS, IDIOTIC, WILFULLY IGNORANT take i have ever seen from them. and it is so easily disprovable that i need to make a post about it and put it in the ground early on.

if you've been around since s4 vol1 era, then you've seen the evolution of their arguments surrounding the monologue. first it was "mlvn was love at first sight, because mike said so". they were all posting the clip from s1 ep 1 of mike finding el in the woods, clips from all throughout s1, and saying "this mike was in love with el!!" because mike said so. in the monologue. when bylers pointed out that this claim from mike directly contrasts his behavior in s1, we were called delusional and told we were just coping. i was even told by someone on reddit that mike wasn't acting like he loved her because he was afraid of being made fun of by dustin and lucas, which deserves it's own separate post, but anyways...

after what finn said at the paris con, aka this:

bylers obviously took this as a win, because it very obviously completely dismisses the idea that mike was being truthful in the monologue. because of this, mlvn's argument has shifted. now, they are claiming that what mike said in the monologue, "I knew right then and there in that moment that I loved you." was not a lie, but HYPERBOLE.

here's just a few examples of this.

holy fuck. where do i even start with this...

i guess let me start by saying that i am an english major. i am a creative writing student. english language arts has always been my forte. it's been my best subject my entire life. i was the kid people went to for help in ELA (english language arts). i was the one tutoring my friends. i was the one explaining things to them. in college my friends would line up to get my help with their english work. i edited and revised their essays. i spent close to 10 hours a week in english classes discussing literary devices and analyzing different stories, which i excelled at.

i am not trying to 'flex', i am simply providing context as to why i believe my opinion on this is worth something. mlvns try to say being a writing/film student means nothing in this argument, but it really really fucking does. i, and countless others in the byler fandom, are LITERALLY more educated in this sort of thing than those who did not spend thousands of dollars to study it. sure we may not be renowned writers with masters degrees, but who do you think we learned from?? our professors, who ARE renowned writers with masters degrees. its no different than trusting the opinion of a biology major when talking about biology. of course ELA is more subjective and free, but when you actually study it you find that its more concrete than you'd think. there are definitions, there are guidelines, there are rights and wrongs. of course you do not have to obey those rules, but in the world of publishing and analysis there are things that make sense, and things that don't make sense.

for example. you can totally write a story where a character says "i knew right then and there in that moment that i loved you" and add whatever explanation or nuance that you want. you can write that with the intention of the character being truthful, but maybe exaggerating a bit. whatever you please. you have the creative freedom to do that whether it makes sense or not.

what you cannot do is claim that that phrase is a hyperbole in that context, or any context, because that is OBJECTIVELY wrong. that is incorrect and inarguable. there are phrases that could potentially be debated between those educated in ELA on whether or not it could be considered a hyperbole, but that would requite the phrase to have ambiguous wording. the phrase in question does not check those boxes. it is not ambiguous in any way shape or form. it's not hyperbole. it's not even hyperbolic in any way.

here's a link to an article with 50 different examples of hyperboles. i promise you that our quote in question will not be there, and that nothing on that list will be remotely similar to it.

"I knew right then and there in that moment that I loved you."

i mean you are genuinely a fucking doofus if you're genuinely trying to claim this is a hyperbole. i need you to be so fucking for real. mike is referring back to a specific moment, remember? maybe you don't because i know y'all don't even watch the show, so let me refresh your memory:

"But the truth is, El...I don't know how to live without you. I feel like my life started that day we found you in the woods. You were wearing that yellow Benny's Burgers shirt, and it was so big it almost swallowed you whole. I knew right then and there in that moment that i loved you. And I have loved you every day since."

el even has a flashback to that exact moment in the scene right after he says it, and right before he says "I knew right then and there etc..."

he literally starts it off with "The truth is"

not meant to be taken literally.

would it make sense to say "The truth is, I'm so tired I could sleep for a century." or "The truth is, I'm so hungry I could eat a horse." or "The truth is, I'm dying of laughter."

NO! IT WOULDNT!

mike's monologue was written/approved by the duffers. the same duffers who graduated from a very prestigious film school and created the biggest tv show in the world. they know what a fucking hyperbole is and that you don't preface one with "the truth is". it is genuinely ridiculous to suggest that they let that stay in a scene where a character is supposed to be finally revealing the truth to both another character and the audience.

let's circle back to those screenshots of dumbass mlvns cosplaying as ELA students

"i fell in love with you instantly" vs "i fell in love with you mere days after we met . ur arguing semantics when the point is that they fell for each other really fast"

please tell me, in WHAT fucking world does someone say "I knew right then and there [in the first moment I saw you] that I loved you" when trying to explain that they really fell in love a few days later. and in WHAT UNIVERSE would a WRITER choose to have their character, who is supposed to finally be telling the unfiltered truth, say that. the answer is, there isn't one. that is so fucking backwards and idiotic that i can't believe i'm even having to explain why. the monologue is fabricated. it was written and approved by professional writers and directors. if mike fell in love with el at some later point in s1, or realized it at some later point in s1, then he could've just fucking said that. he could've just told her the moment he fell for her or the moment he realized. they didn't have to make it all twisted and confusing for no reason. he has absolutely no reason to lie or exaggerate (if he is straight and in love with her).

DING A LING A LING A LING!!!!! THATS A BELL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

"this feels like taking mikes words too literally"

oh, my apologies for taking his words literally during a fucking CONFESSION OF LOVE that he gave her while she was DYING. sorry for taking a line prefaced by "The truth is" literally. you are totally right and i will never do that again!

"when looking back on it it probably does feel like he loved her from the start"

cute sentiment, but that's literally NOT WHAT HE SAID. for the millionth time (see how i just used a hyperbole in a place where it makes sense? where i didn't preface it by saying it was the unfiltered truth?) he said "I knew right then and there in that moment that I loved you." he is saying he saw el in the woods in the rain in her yellow benny's burgers shirt, and KNEW he loved her. he realized it in that moment. that is what he wants el to believe. he is using specific language to pin point the moment he realized it on that moment. like im so serious when i say that if you try to say anything else you genuinely have worms for brains.

any way you logically look at this, it is crushing for mlvn. even if it was a hyperbole, which it is NOT, why the hell would the writers have him exaggerate his feelings to cater to her when it would be much more meaningful for his ACTUAL feelings to save her life?? why would mike feel like he needed to exaggerate?? and i'm sorry, i dont buy the heat of the moment bs. mike has nearly lost el multiple times because he kept lying to her. they had a bad fight days earlier because mike wouldn't tell her the truth. so he finally gets another chance to tell her the truth, and he EXAGGERATES?? HE TELLS A WHITE LIE??? that would also be crushing for mlvn. but none of that matters, because it's not a hyperbole, it's a lie. a flat out lie.

let be me clear, that does not make mike a bad person. in fact, it actually makes him an incredible, caring, selfless person. (remember the synopsis for s4 ep9? "With selfless hearts and a clash of metal, heroes fight from every corner of the battle field to save Hawkins ---and the world itself.") he lied because he knows he doesn't love el the way she wants and he feels like his actual love for her (which is platonic) would not be enough to save her. he devalues his own feelings because they are not what el wants. this is why he nodded after will said "It's scary to open up like that, to say how you really feel. Especially to people you care about the most. Because...what if they don't like the truth?" he feels like he owes el the love she wants, and he is willing to lie to her if it means saving her life. because he truly does love her and care about her, so much that he will do whatever it takes to not lose her.

and i know a lot of mlvn's devalue literary/media analysis and english/creative writing, and our opinions in general, so in case all that wasn't enough, i also asked mlvn's old friend about this. their friend being AI.

mlvns, everything with a lick of sense, including artificial intelligence, is proving you wrong. you are incorrect. what finn said at the paris con put the nail in your ships coffin and you know it. so please stop embarrassing yourselves on the internet and making dumbass claims like this when you know nothing about the subject. you look stupid.

this rant isnt just coming from a place of byler truther anger, it's english major anger. LEAVE MY SUBJECT ALONE. PLEASE.

[nobylerdoubt]

Hi! I have to admit, I’ve been pretty strong with my byler doubt. I’ve been a byler since 2019, and I honestly avoid mileven spaces in general to protect my peace lol. And as a result, I’ve been super confident

But recently, I’ve made a new friend irl who really likes mileven and was also in the fandom back in 2022. We were talking about season 5, and I got genuinely scared 😭

She was pointing out how much stuff bylers have gotten wrong in the past. I honestly forgot about all these theories until she said them :/ Like we thought the monologue would be for Will, or how lots of bylers (not me tbh) thought the hug between Jonathan and Will was actually Will and Mike, or how we thought they’d get Murrayed. We thought Mike would have letters for Will saying love, and how I genuinely believed Mike and El would be broken up at the start of s4.

It just seems like we have been wrong a lot in the past. And now I’m like, what if it’s all for nothing? What if we actually are being queer baited? I’m just scared cause I really connected with Mikes story with comp het.

Just because you're wrong before doesn't mean you'll be wrong again.

And honestly? All the things you pointed out that Bylers were "wrong" about in the past were based on leaks or speculative theories.

Sure - we were wrong about the hug and the monologue. That was based on leaks and we held out hope of what it would mean for our boys. But its not a crime to get leaks wrong. Almost all interpretations of leaks are wrong. They're crumbs of information for us the interpret how we will - and we make a meal out of it.

And byler getting murrayed? lettergate? Those are fan theories based on (almost) nothing. (And honestly, jury is still out. It could still happen.) someone came up with an idea based on something small. They're more like stories or fanfics, something to think about to pass the time.

Well let me break it to you. I highly doubt we'll get flickergate. Churchgate could be about acompletely different plotline. Birthdaygate has a lot of promise, but I wouldn't be surprised if that didn't end up happening either.

If leaks and speculative theories were all we had to go on, I'd be worried too.

But its not. We have so much more.

Let me tell you a story. It's the story of how I became a Byler.

So I've been aware of Stranger Things since season 1. My mom and my sister watched it together, but I was staunchly against watching horror (still am) and I didn't want to watch it.

Season 2 came along and I'm lingering a little too long in doorways, watching in small bits in pieces, but leaving for the scary parts.

Season 3 comes along, and I'm a little more brave and a little more curious. I'd seen the Hillywood parody, and clips online about it. So I ended up watching it. (This is honestly my process for getting into a lot of fandoms.)

And I loved it.

Will was my favorite, which my mom and my sister thought was weird because they didn't like him for whatever reason. Losers. But it was because I was really getting into gay media, and I clocked Will as gay early on. That boy definitely had a crush on Mike.

I knew about Byler at the time, but I hadn't noticed anything that would indicate Mike liked him back. It would be cute, I had thought, but Will is moving and there will probably meet someone in season 4 that will become Will's love interest.

But then Covid game and it was 3 years until season 4 came out. I had drifted and honestly never super got involved with the ST fandom

I had waited to watch the first part of season 4 until part 2 was about to drop. I was working at a summer camp at the time so I wanted to try and watch it all close together.

I watch volume 1 and... no boyfriend? And Will and Mike are spending... a lot of time together... and it's almost... flirty?

And then the PAINTING?! The weird encouragement speech? Superhero?! Mike you should know better! Mileven on the rocks by the end of the season?! Byler's gonna happen!

I made the leap: I'm gonna join the fandom! I get on Tumblr and -

Everyone's devastated?

I went on to do my own digging through the show, watched theory videos and with every passing day I became more sure that Byler was endgame. The fandom obviously came around too, lol, after the initial shock.

But the moral of the story is this. What might have felt like a massive failure to you, might not be as bad as you think.

Sure, the hug wasn't Mike. The painting wasn't a swing set. The monologue wasn't for Will.

But what did we get instead? Jonathan noticing Will's feelings and supporting him. The Cyrano trope with the painting, and Will pouring his feelings into giving this gift to Mike. The monologue was such a disaster El didn't talk to Mike for two days when they were in a vehicle together the whole time.

We were wrong about how it happened but... none of these are Mileven wins. They are almost certainly setting us up for Byler endgame.

Maybe all the theories around the leaks and episode titles we have are wrong. But that doesn't mean that Byler isn't happening, because when we step away from the theories and look at what we have in the show - we're golden.

We might be wrong about how Byler will happen. But I highly doubt we're wrong about the idea that it will happen.

[theoriginalbylergod]

Mike Wheeler is important and there's nothing wrong with analyzing him

Since y'all wanna be insufferable bitches about it I'm gonna explain to you why he's important, why Will loves him, why his struggles should be acknowledged, and why his character depth is pivotal to byler endgame being a satisfying conclusion for both Mike AND Will. Deal with it!

We are not seeing smoke where there isn't a flame. We are seeing smoke where there is a literal fucking forest fire.

Starting off with something a lot of people aren't ready for but I've seen more people talking about: Mike is the main character of s1 at the very least. He is the character that brings us into the world of stranger things. He is the character that the writers chose for this. Mike is the main character of s1 and it was an instant hit. The writers love Mike. Contrary to popular belief, giving a character an arc where they are struggling and their behavior changes from what is normal for the character we know and love does NOT mean the writers hate that character. It means they deliberately chose to give that character complexity and depth. Your inability to like characters that do anything wrong ever is not the fault of the writers. Your decision to act as if a character is not important is not reflective of the actual narrative because it in fact is in direct opposition to the narrative. So just to be clear, if you genuinely believe that Mike isn't important, or that the writers hate him, or don't care about him, or that his story "takes away" from any other character's - ESPECIALLY WILL'S - you are simply wrong.

In s1 and s2 Mike is established as an extremely caring person. He's loving, loyal, brave, intelligent, and trying his best. He is also established to be hot headed, someone who speaks without thinking quite often, someone who is capable of hurting his friends despite that being the last thing he wants to do. He is all of these things and more. He is a human. He is a kid. So in s3, when suddenly he is entirely different, it is completely logical to assume that there is a reason for that. He did not just wake up one day and decide he wanted to be an asshole, push Will away, make his friends feel abandoned, and echo the same sentiments their bullies held. Something is happening with him. He has so much going on in his head and it is painfully obvious. He's holding something in, he's hiding from everyone and from himself. We see glimpses of what he's trying to hide after Will calls him out on his behavior. Will gets through to him. Mike is usually unresponsive to tough love, except for when it's coming from Will. After their fight, it is obvious that he's trying to be better. But he still doesn't wanna face certain things, and he doesn't know how to navigate that. Because he's 13 years old.

There is a reason for all of that internal conflict. There is a reason it comes pouring out of him at certain times. He's crumbling. He is quite literally falling apart because he's holding on to too much. It's not a stretch to assume that, it just takes basic media literacy. Why would the writers have Mike act this way if he was just supposed to be a one dimensional character? Why would Finn be directed to portray Mike the way he does if there was nothing more going on? There are times where Mike looks like he's in physical pain because of his internal conflict. There is a reason for that. And acknowledging that DOES NOT mean people are taking away from Will. That's the most idiotic thing I have ever heard. Do y'all seriously not understand that more than one character can have emotionally complex storylines? Genuinely asking, is this a new concept for you?

Will's love for Mike

Will is head over heels in love with Mike. That is very much established. So when you're dismissing the emotional depth of Mike's individual arc because you think acknowledging it "takes away from Will" you are actually diminishing the significance of a huge aspect of Will's emotional arc. By taking away the significance of Mike, you take away from the significance of Will.

Let's do a quick recap of the very significant role Mike has played in Will's entire life:

Mike is Will's first friend.

They have grown up together and it can be assumed that they've reached important milestones together.

Mike has always been a safe person for Will. He's been a constant in Will's very chaotic and unfair life. Until the summer of '85, Mike had always been something good in Will's life. (That's not to say he is no longer something good, but it can be assumed that the summer of '85 is the first time Mike has been a causal factor in Will's unhappiness)

When Will went missing, Mike did not hesitate to search for him. It wasn't even a question of if. The moment he knew Will was missing he knew exactly what he'd be doing that night. He spearheaded the search amongst the party. He was the leader.

When Will came back, Mike was the only person that didn't treat him like he was gonna break. He cared for him, and he was there for him, but he didn't treat him differently; Will tells us as much. Which means we can infer that the way Mike was with Will in s2 - how gentle and loving he was - was nothing new. He had just always been like that.

When Will was possessed, Mike stayed by his side. Even when it was scary, even when it could've gotten him killed, he stayed. Because once again, for him, it wasn't even a question. That's just where he knew he needed to be. He was in the shed when they were trying to get through to Will. He was set apart from Lucas and Dustin, but he also wasn't equated to family. And his retelling of the story of the day they first met was the final push Will needed to find a way to communicate.

After a year of things being "weird" between them, Mike tells Will that he didn't deserve to be treated the way he had been. Mike tells him that he wants them to be okay again, and for the rest of the season he puts in the work.

Things get rough in s3, and at the beginning of s4, and despite all of that, Will confesses his love (albeit veiled). In a moment where Mike is feeling awful about himself, he tells him that he loves him and needs him, and he tells him why. And to him it doesn't matter that he's breaking his own heart to do it, because it's Mike. Mike, who makes him feel like he's not a mistake at all, and that he's better for being different. For Will, there was no other option. The person he loves was hurting and he knew how to help, and so he did.

Mike is the first person Will tells about Vecna still being alive. Because they're back to being a team. He knows he can trust Mike, and Mike seems to be very determined to prove him right.

SO.

These are all real and canon aspects of Mike's presence in Will's life. Will falling in love with Mike isn't something that just happened for no reason. Will fell in love with Mike because of who Mike is. When you acknowledge that, and when you acknowledge the reasons they've set out for why Will loves him - the reasons Will literally told us - you can better understand Will. But when you dismiss all of these things about Mike, you are dismissing a large portion of Will's emotional and romantic arc. You aren't being a Will Warrior. You are erasing so much of him and his feelings and his lived experience. That is not the hill you wanna die on.

Will loves a person. Not a feeling. Yes, he says that Mike makes him feel like he's not a mistake and that he's better for being different. But that's not why he loves him. He feels that way because he loves him.

Mike is a fully fleshed out character with his own feelings and struggles and fears and traumas and motivations. He's not a plot device. He's not just an accessory to Will's arc. He's not a character that was written only to be Will's love interest. He's Will's love interest because he's Mike.

If Mike didn't matter, and if Mike didn't play a significant role in byler, then they would be able to write in a love interest for Will in s5 and have it be somewhat satisfying. But they can't do that. Will's love for Mike has so much depth because Mike has so much depth. It is genuinely crazy that this has to be stated and that I have to back up this claim because it is simply a canon fact.

So yes, the rain fight affects Mike's character development and his involvement in it is important. Yes, the van scene literally could not exist without Mike and therefore his involvement in it is incredibly important. Yes, every single byler moment has an impact on Mike, and Mike has an impact on it because they are BYLER moments. Yes, Mike will have a lot of significant moments - with Will AND on his own - in s5 because his arc deserves and needs as much attention as Will's in order to execute byler endgame in a satisfying way.

No, none of these facts negate Will's importance or take away from his story. If anything, they add to it because Mike and Will's arcs are corresponding and intertwined.

Mike's struggles

To name a few

Dysfunctional family

Has been bullied his entire life

Extreme self worth issues

Inferiority complex

Hero complex

Lack of self preservation

Suicidal ideation (has been on display since SEASON ONE)

Internalized homophobia

To get this out of the way: Mike's internalized homophobia is allowed to be discussed. Discussion of it is not the dismissal of Will's internalized homophobia. Surprise surprise, two queer kids in the 80s have internalized homophobia! Who'd'a thunk it?! Their internalized homophobia presents in different ways but it is there for both of them. I personally relate to the way Mike's is portrayed way more than I relate to Will's. So why is it that we can't discuss it without being accused of erasing Will's experience? Or without people saying that we're "copy and pasting" Will's story? Because quite frankly, that feels dismissive of my - and likely many others' - real and lived experience. So please for the love of all things that are good just stop with this talking point because it will never hold up.

Moving on

I'm not gonna do a full breakdown of all of Mike's issues. Because contrary to popular belief, there are a lot. And that would be exhausting and I'd get carried away and it's not the point of this post. The point of this post is to defend the acknowledgement and mere existence of them.

If you're a byler that for some reason thinks Mike only exists to be Will's love interest and his trophy as compensation for his trauma, let me ask you this: Have you considered how awful it would be to have a queer character's individuality and emotional depth completely ignored for the sake of focusing on the queer character that "really matters"?

If Mike's own issues, with his queer identity and otherwise, aren't thoroughly explored... What's the point of all this? If Mike really is insignificant in this storyline and his individuality has no effect on it.. where's the emotional payoff? If his perspective doesn't matter... Why have the writers gone to such great lengths to ensure we don't have that piece of the puzzle yet?

Analyzing Mike and understanding Mike is very important to understanding byler. Once again, I think it's crazy that this needs to be said.

I also think it's important to note that characters can have similar struggles. There's no rule against that. Just like real life. Characters having similar struggles is not a bad thing, and acknowledging that their struggles are similar is not dismissive of either character. We're talking about STRANGER THINGS. Jonathan and Nancy's thing is "we've got shared trauma". They have literal matching scars. Shared experiences are some of the main building blocks for this show's romances. Byler has a TON of shared experience, basically their entire lives. We already know that. So wouldn't it be so beautiful for them to learn that they've been struggling with the same thing this whole time? That the entire time they felt alone in what they were going through when really they had each other and they never even knew it? Wouldn't it be so beautiful for Mike's acceptance of Will and Will's love for him was also a step toward accepting himself? Wouldn't it be beautiful for Will to learn that his love makes Mike feel like he's not a mistake? None of that would be in the realm of possibility if Mike didn't have emotional depth and if his individuality wasn't important.

And that leads me to my concluding point...

A satisfying execution of byler endgame hinges on Mike's individual emotional arc being handled well

God I hope this isn't controversial to say. I sincerely hope most people haven't forgotten that.

Here's a hypothetical:

Imagine season five has been released. You're watching it, and you notice that Mike has been relegated to just a supporting character for Will. We don't get any of his perspective. We don't get any explanation for his s3 and early s4 behavior. His breakup with El doesn't have any real tangible effect on him, it's really just used for El's character development. We never see him pining for Will like we saw Will pining for him. And then suddenly Mike is learning about the painting and then suddenly he's confessing his love and then suddenly byler is canon and official.

Now wouldn't that just be awful? Wouldn't that be unfair to the audience, to Mike, and to Will? For us to never learn just how much Mike had to go through to even be able to say it out loud? For Mike to never get the chance to prove to himself through word and action that he is the heart? For Will to never get an explanation for why things did get so "weird" between them? It would leave us with one big, nagging question: What was the point of everything Mike has said and done throughout the entire show if his conclusion is that lackluster?

Disregarding Mike for a moment (I know that's incredibly ironic given what the entire point of this is but just bear with me) - how would that be a satisfying conclusion for Will? I mean, Will's s4 arc was basically dedicated to showcasing his struggle with his sexuality and with his love for Mike. We were shown just how deep that love is. We were shown how patient, unselfish, unwavering, and beautiful that love is. So how would it be satisfying for Mike's love for him to not be shown with just as much depth? How would it be satisfying for Mike to just be a one dimensional character whose s5 arc is essentially "break up with girlfriend, wait to find out best friend is in love with him, say he loves him back, then they live happily ever after"? I think Will deserves for his love to be returned with the same intensity at which he gives it. And I think it should be clear to the audience and to Will himself.

Back to Mike!

Mike has been through so much shit. I don't think anyone that is denying that actually believes he hasn't been through shit. Because you'd actually have to watch the show on mute and with your eyes closed to think this kid hasn't had just the worst time. It's so ignorant to act as if this stuff hasn't affected him. There's stuff we've seen but there's stuff we also haven't seen. There are issues he has that date back to his childhood pre-canon. Just like Will, Mike has been a queer kid growing up in 80s smalltown conservative america. Acknowledging the pain he 100% carries because of that is so important. His perspective has been withheld from us, not because it's unimportant, but because it's the final puzzle piece. If we had Mike's perspective in s4, byler wouldn't be a "will they won't they" (even though we all know they will). If we got his perspective in s4, byler would be a "100% certain without a doubt they will". But the thing about his perspective is that it's so much more than just loving Will. It's fear. It's pain. It's insecurity. It's doubt. It's the belief that his happiness just doesn't matter all that much. All of that has to be explored. All of that has to be laid out in the open for us in order for byler endgame to feel earned. Mike's emotional payoff will lead to byler's emotional payoff.

Mike has known he loves Will. In s5 we will see him make a deliberate and active effort to overcome the things keeping him from doing something about it. And then he will do something about it.

And so when it finally happens. When both Mike and Will finally know that their feelings are requited, and when their arcs end with us knowing that they will face whatever life has in store for them together, that will feel earned. That will feel like the logical conclusion for both of them. Not just for Mike. Not just for Will. For both.

And Mike is just as important to that conclusion as Will is.

And one last thing...

Some people are going to talk about Mike more. Some people are going to talk about Will more. Because newsflash, people have preferences. Some people just relate to Mike more, or they find his emotional arc extremely compelling, or they just like him. It isn't an attack on Will or any other character. No one is saying Mike is more important than any other character (I'm sure there are people that say that but they are a vocal minority and they are simply wrong). We are just saying that he is important. If you wanna engage in media analysis, please understand that "main character" or "central character" does not mean "only important character" and "only character that should be analyzed". If you wanna talk about Will and only Will, that's fine. But you don't get to act like people that talk about other characters are doing a disservice to your fave, because that's not how any of this works.

[miwiheroes]

Hi, Im having byler doubt rn and I was hoping you could clear it up. What if Mike started pushing Will away in s4 because he was aware of Will's feelings and didn't feel the same? I mean he did say its not my fault you dont like girls. so what if he's aware and ignoring him because of that?

OOh this is fun because this one of the easiest things to disprove tbh, even if it's not obvious at first.

I understand why you would think that Mike knows about Will's feelings and stuff, because the audience know. And the awkward scenes like in the airport and the roller rink would make sense if the explanation was that Mike was trying to let Will down and was frustrated that he's not over him. But if he knows about Will's feelings, why would these scenes occur?

In this scene, Will makes it super duper obvious that he's in love with Mike by telling him that the Truth could hurt people and he's scared of telling someone that he cares about the Truth. However, this is only said because Mike is scared of telling El the truth, which can't be truth that she wants because why would saying I love you hurt her? AND why does Mike nod when Will says this if he's trying to let Will down easy or something?

If the scene where Mike says 'it's not my fault you dont like girls' was him saying that Will shouldn't have feelings for him, why would he act like this^^^ when Will says that he would never join another party? (If you dont understand subtext, it means he'll never fall in love with someone else). If Mike knew this was about Will's feelings, why would he smile like that?

If the Rink o Mania fight really was referencing Mike trying to ignore Will then why the frickity hell would he apologise for it in this way? This scene is the only scene where Mike has clearly fully accepted that El is safe somewhere but somewhere that she can save Hawkins. His plan is go to Hawkins with Will. If he knows Will's feelings, and is uncomfortable with them, why would they act like this and why would he confirm that he was just afraid of losing him??? This scene is there to tell you that Mike ignoring Will was because he was scared that he had lost him to someone else or Cali in general. -- so it couldn't have been because he knows.

Along with all those things, Mike did not ignore Will in the airport scene. Please look at this post for more information on that -- he also confirms that he wasn't ignoring him all day in the Rink o Mania fight where he says that Will ignoring him actually ruined everything.

If that isn't enough, Finn himself has also said that Mike doesn't know about Will's feelings. At least not before the Van Scene. If Mike really knew about Will's feelings before the Van Scene, it would be so obvious to Mike that Will was really talking about him, right? But Finn's said, specifically regarding how Mike is taking Will's feelings --

"I don't think he knows" But he also says: "There's probably a mutual understanding there"

If the Duffer Brothers wanted Mike to know about Will's feelings, I really don't think they would have him constantly trying to get relationship advice from Will, because that would be kind of mean no? And they would simply make it much clearer that Mike knows.

[shadowyyyidk]

i don’t understand why you don’t ship mileven, they have it all actually they have all the best tropes and mike struggling to say ily just spices things up so yall Byler hating in mileven is crazy. all the bullshit y’all are spewing makes you crazy actually because mileevn is endgame an was always indended to be, that’s why lucas predicted it and the reason hopper said there was something wrong with mikes and elevens relationship was that he was jealous. he wants to sabotage for them because he’s a bad person that’s why he insisted they had the door open theee inches and was mean to mike. hesjealous because he’s always wanted to be a minion his whole life and when he realised that mike was destined to be one he got jealous of him, and the reason he hates will is because he knows will is also gonna become a mimion. ik the duffer bros and they told me that the entire s5 plot revolves around hopper trying to stop will and mole from transforming by feeding them eggos with a vaccine in them so that they don’t turn into minuons. then will dies from the vaccine because he gay and mik marries elven and they give birth to a shit ton of purple minion babies who all need eggos to survive so vecna causes inflation so that eggos cost a whole lot and it kills the babies because mike and el can’t buy eggos to feed them wirh and then will and edie return from the dead to join vecna and destroy hwkins by infecting the town with gay, and mike kills will because he mourns his baby minions sm then he starts a new family with el. xx

kekekkkekekekekekeekekekekkekeeeeeeeeee

this actually made me laugh

thank you for this whoever you are <3

also it would be insane if someone could make like a comic out of this because this is fucking magnificient

[willbyershandmoles]

As someone who was around in the Byler fandom from before season 4, I don’t see much of a difference in how the fans behave except the fact that Bychance truthers actually have an existing character to put him with, not a concept.

There were people that wanted Will to have a boyfriend or LI in season 4 that wasn’t Mike so it’d be "fair". Mike has more experience, as he’s with El. So Bylers wanted them to be even. Mike is Will’s first but Will isn’t Mike’s? The argument was that Will should get to explore his sexuality. But most of them made their actual intentions transparent, they thought it was unfair Mike didn’t experience as much heartbreak as Will did. Mike dated El and that hurt Will, so they wanted Will to date some guy so Mike would experience this type of hurt and jealousy, not merely as a plot device to push them together, but solely so they can see Mike hurt because he unintentionally broke their fave’s heart by getting into a relationship with someone else so he deserves karma. Which is just weird because this isn’t some heartbreak olympics. I also distinctly remember someone unironically theorizing S4 Will would sleep around with a bunch of guys and have his slutty era. And that pretty quickly evolved into them claiming S4 Will may get HIV/AIDS as a result. What the fuck is this fandom’s obsession with Will having HIV/AIDS, I don’t know, but it never stopped. Just not that long ago someone on here made a theory on how the ending is gonna reveal that Will passed away from HIV/AIDS and the entire show is just a part of some story Mike wrote for him or whatever the fuck.

The mischaracterization, too, was there. I remember being frustrated by this trend of how so many Bylers wanted S4 Will to get into baseball or other sports. You think Will Byers…. would be a jock??? And you just had to see all those baseball player Will posts because it went on for a long time…. Ugh.

"they wanted Will to date some guy so Mike would experience this type of hurt and jealousy, not merely as a plot device to push them together, but solely so they can see Mike hurt because he unintentionally broke their fave’s heart by getting into a relationship with someone else" <- SPEAK ON THAT!!!!!

i never really understood the vitriol the fandom has towards mike, that manifests into this obsession to have him face some type of retribution. i mean even with small jokes like "i hope mike has a breakdown in season 5" - that doesn't come from a place of wanting mike to have a genuine emotional moment after years of repression, it's because they want to see him be hurt the same way will was.

my unpopular opinion is that a lot of bylers have this weird, incel-like behavior towards mike where they think he should be punished for "not reciprocating" will's feelings. what i mean by that is that bylers are strangely very fixated on stuff like the van scene and the monologue as something that mike did to antagonize will.

like i understand people criticizing mike for the airport scenes and rink-o-mania since he did actively make decisions that hurt will, i.e ignoring him and also blowing up at him. but the van scene? he didn't make will cry, will cried because he was overwhelmed with his feelings. how is that mike's fault? mike has no control over how will feels, and even if byler weren't canon, it's not his responsibility to reciprocate.

and the monologue? mike's mind is preoccupied with trying not to have his (girl)friend die at the moment. fans give him shit for saying he loves el right in front of will, but like... why tho lol. those weren't decisions made to make will feel bad, and yet the fandom treats those moments as another thing to be added to mike's shit list.

as much as slutty!will is fun in theoretical fanfic, it's very ooc in canon that a pining yearner like him would suddenly ditch all of that and start sleeping around. and to say he'd get AIDS from that?! wtf lol. i mean i don't mind discussions on HIV/AIDS in general given its ubiquity in the 80s (and i have read the theory you're talking about and while i disagree with it, i found it quite interesting), but saying will would get sick primarily because of his promiscuity is a little uh... homophobic.

also why would will ever be into playing baseball... that's literally been the running motif in the show of conformity/homophobia..... why, just cuz noah got a little more muscular? please.

the obsession with byler needing to have a "fair" dynamic is so eyeroll-worthy to me. will was the damsel in distress the whole season, so mike MUST be the damsel this time. mike broke will's heart, so will MUST break mike's heart now. like just stop lol. i'm glad bylers aren't writing the show, otherwise i would have had a meltdown.

[spicybylerpolls]

It is genuinely ASTONISHING to see how many people are against your blog because they believe “it’s bad/weird to fantasize” or they say stuff like, “analyzing is fine. fantasizing is evil.” Actually fantasization is a divine gift, a spiritual experience, one of the best things we can do as humans. And most clearly Bylers agree!

They spend all day fantasizing about Mike and Will holding hands, going on dates, kissing, even ‘making out sloppily’ but the second we on the spicy side say that we want Byler to fuck, people start freaking out. How dare you fantasize?

Stick to analysis, freak.

Can someone please tell me why sex is such a big weird scandalous taboo? Have we gone back in time? Is this an evangelical youth group? Is this Catholic school? Are we Mormons? To fight back, some say, “Oh I’m not fantasizing, I’m just exploring the character dynamics” as if fantasizing will implicate them as some kind of dirty rotten sinner, as if this is some kind of gotcha that will expose fandom nonces.

But I don’t get it. I’m doing both, unapologetically! I’m exploring Byler’s dynamics, just like we do with ever other HC and canon analysis point, AND I’m fantasizing about them fucking like rabbits until the end of time, just like we fantasize about how the Byler kiss will go or how Mike will finally admit his sexuality.

Last time I checked, sex is part of sexuality, it’s literally in the name, and it’s a Divine Gift. Mike and Will are not disembodied beings who only want to hold hands and look at flowers all day. They are gay teenage boys who are sexually ravenous for each other. It’s clear this era of Puriteens didn’t devour Reddie or Stenborough smut under the covers while giggling and kicking their feet. And none of them would have SURVIVED the Harry Potter fandom.

The other side of this are the adult fancops who are siding with the puriteens and constantly trying to cancel Bylers for thinking unholy thoughts. You can only think analytical thoughts while wearing suits and taking cold showers. Meanwhile 65% of the fandom is openly attracted to Finn, and I’m supposed to be gaslit into thinking this doesn’t translate into their experience actually watching the show? I’m supposed to believe they watched him drool over Will’s ass and then said, “No, he didn’t do that”?

“But why aren’t you fantasizing about adult ships like J0pper or JAncy or or or-”

Because I don’t care about them? No offense. I’ve never read J0pper or JAncy fanfic in my life. And this isn’t J0pper Tumblr? It’s Byler Tumblr. I’m a Byler and naturally I want to see my favorite characters rail each other romantically? And it’s very, dare I say, unnatural and unrealistic when you read fanfics and Mike and Will kiss each other and don’t so much as get a boner. One boner?

I’m so tired. It’s utter gobbledegook.

Especially giving the context of what Stranger Things and Byler represents, it’s so obvious that sexual exploration is the natural evolution for these characters in their arcs in Season 5. Self-actualization and an embrace of the queer experience in all its sensuality and beauty.

The shame WILL be on the other side.

yeah, all great points! I think people get overprotective and hyper-vigilant, and they want to make sure they're taking a strong stand against their nebulous, exaggerated, hypothetical image of the shadowy "30-year old creep" getting off to Byler smut in a dark room.

but you're right that all Bylers "fantasize" about many things, even those most vocal in the analyze-only movement. technically all of Byler is "fantasizing," since they aren't together yet and they are fictional. we're all just envisioning scenarios and situations!

for some reason tho, people are chill with people daydreaming about every romantic scenario imaginable and chill with people conjuring up sad, tragic, angsty situations involving Vecna and bullying and pain. but sex? no. sex is shocking, alarming, and frightening.

also, this is definition of fantasize:

there's nothing inherently creepy about that definition. It's neutral.

[teambyler]

(Spoiler) Noah Schnapp is CLEARLY trying to avoid spoiling something MAJOR about Mike and Will here! (Breakdown with TIMESTAMPS)

Okay Tom Holland, Noah Schnapp lol.

I'm usually a very careful person, and so I mean it when I say that this video of Noah at a recent con is the biggest confirmation of Byler endgame we've ever gotten.

0:04: Noah's NERVOUSNESS combined with TRYING TO SUPPRESS GIDDY EXCITEMENT in the first 5 seconds. His literal first reaction to a question about how Mike and Will's relationship has evolved was "You guys can't get me in trouble! I don't wanna say anything! Spoiler..."

0:16: Mike and Will's relationship "had its ups and downs in the beginning..." In the beginning? It was never down in the beginning mah dude, not until Season 3. By "the beginning" he's contrasting everything before to NOW (Season 5)! Now, when things are FINE, and as Mike said they're "a team..."

0:24 "Mike was always super protective of Will and Will always leaned on him, and you could never really tell if it was something romantic or just a really special friendship" !!!!!!

0:33 "And as it goes on you kinda realize that Will does have... Am I allowed to say this?" Noah should know he can say Will likes Mike: Noah told the press 2 years ago that Will loves Mike. Either his mind is GLITCHING because he's afraid he'll spoil something, or he thinks that JUST TALKING about Mike and Will's history is a spoiler for some reason! =)

0:41 Cara: "Ummm.... I don't know!" She knows that "yes" would encourage him to say more and "no" would sound like they're hiding something. Noah: "I don't wanna talk about this!"

0:47 Throughout Cara's entire talk Noah is GRINNING and he's trying his best to hide it. Clearly just THINKING about Mike and Will makes this gay boy wanna giggle. It literally feels like HE is Will and someone's there talking about his relationship with his boyfriend who he can't stop thinking about.

0:58 Cara saves Noah but then beats around the bush and talks about friends growing together and apart. She says they diverge and "Mike goes on his journey" while Will remains "stuck." Then she says "...So I think in Season 5..." and Noah gives her a LOOK knowing that they have to be careful here. Then Cara talks about SOMETHING ELSE entirely, pretending she never started the sentence! She says it's "a friendship evolving" and that friends can grow apart and together, "and we'll see what happens"(!) What ELSE could this all mean but that they grow closer together after growing apart in season 3? And that Mike's "journey" was one of self-discovery? (From all the glimpses of s5 we're getting, Mike's clearly not "journeying" far from Will's side!)

1:39 Even though Noah should know better (lol), he chimes in AGAIN to say something about Mike and Will and dig another hole for Cara to dig them out of! Then he thinks better of it: "Actually I"m not gonna say anything."

In another clip from this talk, Noah says that in nearly every scene he's done on the show Finn/Mike has been there. The way he talks about it, it's clear he's reminiscing about his entire experience with the show including Season 5, where they're sharing all their scenes again. Mike and Will's relationship is important to Noah, who of course is gay.

In that same clip, Cara says it'll be easier to answer these questions when the show is over. Noah: "It's just so hard to talk about it. It's so secretive and we don't wanna get in trouble."

It's extremely clear that Noah and Cara do not want to give a MAJOR SPOILER ABOUT MIKE AND WILL.

In s5, Mike HAS to find out Will loves him because of the Painting Lie. If what results is that Mike rejects Will because he's straight, which the vast majority of the audience already assumes, would they be this secretive about it?

Of course not.

Plus, they're so careful to NOT DENY THE POSSIBILITY of Byler endgame either, which they can do EASILY. ("Will loves his straight best friend..." or "Mike's only interested in El...") That would've been a NON-STORY. They're going OUT OF THEIR WAY not to rule out Byler. AND they fully know that teasing the audience with it only for it NOT to happen would be queerbaiting.

Byler doubt? Never knew ya.

-teambyler

[lavendoussalmonous]

Hey Tumblr nation. Guess who suddenly has a hyperfixation on Stranger Things. I’m obviously a little bit late to the party, but it’s fineee there’s another season coming out this year so then I won’t be alone in my obsessing over it.

I’m about to yap a lot about a song so just um. Read more if you’re interested I guess lol

As a queer person, I of course love Byler. I also just really like Will as a character because he’s lovely and it’s like he’s trying his best to be as wholesome as he can while also having to deal with living in the Horror Genre. I don’t actually know why I mentioned Byler but here we are I’m sure it will have something to do with what I planned to say in this post

I Don’t Want To Live Like This by James Marriott just reminds me of Will so so much. Now, before you call me cringe for liking his music, hear me out on this one. I also feel like a lot of this won’t make sense but yOU HAVE TO TRUST ME I SWEAR

Right starting off with the chorus:

Of course, the title itself is relevant to Will — he just wants all of this awful stuff to end and he wants to be able to go to Mike’s house and play dnd with his friends. That’s basically his whole arc in season 3, and he says something similar to that in season 2.

Okay all I have to say about this is the upside down. He doesn’t want to go back there. If we aren’t including Vecna, Will might possibly be the main character who has spent the longest time in the upside down, and I’m fairly certain he wouldn’t want to go back down there again (because even though his flashbacks in season 2 weren’t actually flashbacks, he probably still would have some sort of ptsd from that experience).

This also kind of reminded me of the upside down and Will’s ‘fake flashbacks’ or whatever the fandom is calling them. The top line also to me represents Will’s fear of the upside down and all the other creatures that come from there.

This one might be a bit of a far cry, but this sort of could represent how no matter what Will does, he will always be connected to the upside down in some way. Even at the end of season 4 when the Bylers (and Mike I guess) returned to Hawkins, he could still feel Vecna’s presence.

This one’s self-explanatory — anyone who doesn’t understand / know about the upside down and Hawkins Lab thinks that Will (and everyone else really) is crazy for basically everything that they do. Also kind of off-topic but I love how they brought back the theme of Joyce trying to convince people that someone she cares about is still alive in season 4. Even if it was just for a little bit. I’m talking like season 4 has only just come out um

THIS IS WHERE BYLER COMES IN

But not really I don’t know how to explain it in a way that is explicitly Byler but I’m sure you understand what I’m trying to say right. Also Will has absolutely looked at himself in the mirror symbolically at one point. Idk anyway

This post was longer than it needed to be!! If you read it all thank you for reading my big long music rant 😋

[wheeler-fan]

Well I see ur last answers on Byler and Mileven post and I would like to add my perspective on both of these ships realistically (because I like to poke my nose into others businesses /jk)

Well honestly speaking I love Byler, but here I'll try to be as unbiased as possible. Realistically speaking, both ships have their own pros and cons. Mileven did looked cute around 1-2 seasons (if we see it from general audience perspective) and while Byler (for me atleast) looked so much cute and healthy in season 2.

But look let's forget the fact that Mike can't say ily to El for a moment. Their ship still won't make sense, because Mike (when he asked El out) was around 11-12 yrs (as much as I remember). He cared and loved El but not romantically. He showed a genuine care for her because he suddenly founded her in woods (plus he thought she might know about Will). At this time I don't think he had crush on her. El was the first girl who had talked to him without being mean, so that is also the reason for him to act more soft towards her. But since it was first time for Mike to talk to a girl, so the other people around him (like - Lucas and Nancy) thought that he liked her. And Lucas was the one who was pushing this idea that Mike might be in love with her, and after sometime Nancy also confronted him about this. And since surrounding does affects you and it was his first time being friends with a girl, he later thought yes that might be the case. And El didn't even knew what a friend was, so how do we expect her to know the meaning of love is? In conclusion I think that both El and Mike likes this idea of being in love and they do love each other but as I said not romantically. They both don't act like themselves around each other and in last season they both lied to eachother. Both of them need to explore themselves and what they like and then should be in a relationship with someone they like.

While for Byler, I do believe it is much better than Mileven but again Mike still needs to find what he really feels and think. And as for Will, he does know that the kind of love that want is "not normal" in the sense of 90s. He do love Mike in a romantic way but he still tried to fix Mike's and El's relationship, because he cares for both of them. I'm not a Mike hater but him in season 3 and 4 just gives me mixed feelings. Mike outted Will and he during the time when he was supposed to find his "girlfriend", he started talking about how Will didn't talked to him the whole day. Which is actually kinda umm, weird? Like bro u are supposed to find ur girlfriend, so don't change the topic lol.

I'm still looking out for Mike's character development in season 5 because he has so much potential and he is more than "El's boyfriend".

I to be honest wouldn't mind if Byler doesn't becomes canon (actually I will but that's not the point here 🥲) but if Mileven becomes endgame then tbh it would be a kind of a fanservice. Like let's take bylers a side, the large number of audience are general audience and other are Milevens. Most of the general audience are homophobic and they go with basics . Not forget to mention that people still say in this date that "wait people ship Mike and Will??" El is a character who needs to be independent, her story doesn't revolve around finding a boyfriend but it's revolve around finding herself and learning the normal world. Mike is just boiled down to being El's boyfriend but he is more than that, so many people find him relatable and it's not a bad writting if something like this happens. If see from Will's perspective, then his story doesn't fully revolve around finding a partner but it still plays a important role in his character (since he thinks that he can't be loved by someone how he wants). I'm such huge fan of Will and I want what he feels is good for him, I just want to see him happy. I still hope that he comes out to Mike and Mike to comfort him, them having a heart to heart while comforting each other.

Mileven as a ship held a big potential in past but it wasn't taken serious as it should've been. Same goes for Byler, it have potential to be a good friends to lover story and duffers are giving us bit of hints but we will only what is gonna happen to them in season 5.

At the end I want all my three babies to have a happy ending which they deserve (⁠〃ﾟ⁠3ﾟ⁠〃⁠)

I'm gonna be honest with u right now, this is one of the best explained views on a byler pov I've seen!! It was really nice and you've got a point!! i love nice byler fans with all my heart i swear❤️❤️

The first thing i want to say is the fact that we all are getting so mad sometimes about these ships probably bc no one wants to be in a situation where we get to know that we believed in some delusions for years 😭😭

I personally see mike with el, I don't know if things are gonna work out for them but i hope so, yet the most important thing for me is a happy ending for my fav character- Mike, and if you're the one who has right, if byler actually's gonna be endgame, as long as mike is actually happy i think I'll be happy too (well i really hope so but i want mileven to be endgame please lord😭😭😭)

But even skipping the part about who does mike actually love in a romantic way, can i ask u something? Can you really see it, how mike and el break up and then immediately mike goes to his best friend and his ex gf brother and they become a couple? I know that you would really like that to happen but the question is do u really see it happen?😭 Because i just can't I'm so sorry i don't know how it is supposed to happen, we actually don't have much time it's the last season 😭

And I have another question like this is kinda personal but I need to know, do u have something like this sometimes, that you're starting to stress- ,,what if my fav ship actually won't be endgame? what if I'm being delusional?" Don't get me wrong I'm asking these questions to myself all the time because i have to be honest with u it's stressing me out that there's so many byler shippers like it have to mean something right?😭😭😭

[pinksmonkey]

Update on my anti-Byler bestie

Here's the post if you missed it.

First of all, thank you to everyone who shared their favourite Byler evidence, it made me very happy and it was funny sharing it with my friend.

Now, unfortunately my friend cannot be convinced. I'm autistic and have trouble understanding people's intentions and feelings, so I can't tell if he's being fully serious, half serious, or completely unserious, but to me it seems most like half serious. He's strongly in denial and won't really give me a reason as to why, he just says, "No, not happening."

So there's no getting to him, he believes without a doubt that Byler isn't happening (and said he'll start a riot if it does happen, but Idk if he was serious). And he says he's going to find evidence, but his only proof so far has been, "Nooooo." XD

So I've been dealing with that. It's kind of frustrating because I feel like he's not really listening to anything I'm saying, he just denies everything. And I understand sort of because he actually bet me $50 Byler won't happen in season 5 (I didn't bet anything, he just gets to keep the money if he's right). So he doesn't want to admit defeat to that, which is fair, but it was a stupid bet to make in the first place since he didn't have all the information (the proof for Byler).

Additionally, at lunch today we were talking to a girl who's also in our anxiety support class, and I was talking about Byler stuff (Mike's official playlist songs, the way he looks at Will, their flirty scenes in season 4, Mike using the "we're friends" trope, etc.). She agreed with my friend that Byler isn't a thing and said Mike is so straight.

I can argue with them as much as I want but it gets really frustrating and even kind of annoying that they just don't understand all the evidence. I'm just venting here, so absolutely no hate towards people who don't believe Byler is canon, but as someone who cares so deeply about it, it can make me kind of emotional trying to argue that I'm not delusional.

In the end we agreed to disagree, which is fine and valid and I respect that. But with my friend, it's kind of a big deal, because to me Byler is a big deal. I admit I'm obsessed, Byler has been my biggest special interest since I watched season 4 and found out it was a thing. I can't really help it, I'm just so passionate about it and it gets stuck in my mind. You could say I'm hopelessly devoted to Byler, one of my friends online has even said they think it's unhealthy, but how can something that brings me so much joy be wrong?

Ok this has devolved significantly, but what I'm trying to say in this whole rant/vent thing is that yes, I'm very invested in the relationship between fictional characters, because it's important to me. Representation matters, and even though I'm not a gay man, I still love seeing other groups be represented, especially in a show this popular, with a story this deep. The beauty of Byler's story transcends everything.

So it's frustrating trying to argue for something I care so much about. Byler makes me happy, it motivates me, it inspires me. I'm not going to apologize for loving the things I love and being passionate about my interests. Of course I try to be open minded, respect different opinions, and listen to other points of view. If my friend actually had evidence against Byler, I would listen and respond as constructively and respectfully as I can.

Basically, shipping Byler is valid, and not shipping or even being anti-Byler is valid (unless it's just for homophobic reasons, homophobia is not valid). But I love Byler and it does kind of hurt to have something I care about be adamantly denied and torn apart. And you know, as I'm writing this I'm actually empathizing with Milevens. This doesn't just go for Byler, it goes for all ships (as long as they're not messed up obviously), people should be able to enjoy what they enjoy without others trying to tell them why they're wrong.

There's nothing wrong with analyzing Mileven, talking about why it's unhealthy or not going to be endgame, etc. But that should stay in the proper places, we don't need to constantly remind Milevens that they're ship isn't going to end up together. Just let them be happy, and I'd expect them to do the same for us.

Idk how this turned into talking about Milevens and respecting different ships, but it did somehow. Anyway, back to the point, my friend may be wrong about what will happen in season 5, but his beliefs on it are still valid. I just wish we could talk about it in a way that doesn't make me feel bad about shipping Byler and believing it's endgame. Does that make sense?

This isn't that serious or anything, and take everything I said here as just a random vent/rant, I'm just getting out all my thoughts and feelings, because I need to after all the arguing with people today.

If Byler doesn't happen, I'll be sad, but I know I won't be alone because I have my fellow Bylers, my Byler family and community here. We can all be sad together, and support each other. When I feel bad about something, I like to remember this quote:

That's how I feel about Byler not being endgame.

But on a lighter note, I'm pretty sure Byler will end up together, it just makes sense. So yeah, feel free to share any of your thoughts and feelings about this, I'd love to hear them. :)

I just needed to share some Byler positivity at the end because I'm tired of being surrounded by Byler negativity in my class.

Byler rights forever. 🏳️‍🌈

[bylerfields]

i just read your bottom mike points and its the most sense ive ever read on that topic, considering im a top mike truther. not so much dom mike, cos i think theyre equals, but your thing about mike chiling and come down to wills level was interesting. it makes me wonder how these dynamics would have played out if there was never this supernatural threat... i got the sense that mike still always led, because of how he approached will on the swings, and their little bickers in the whole group even, outside of monster stuff (like the ghostbusters venkman thing). mike being the de facto leader, soft version when with will, seemed like something that had simply always been. he's soft with will, but usually when he thinks will needs caring for. when will isnt in danger, i dont think mike is soft or chill necessarily. so its interesting that you see a matured, grown-into-himself and secure mike as 'chilling'.

and lastly, if they both come down and meet on this equal level of softness, how is that still evidence of mike being a sub? surely that would make them both soft vers?

but your points did make sense and i like that there are some bottomsub mike people out there who dont just see him as a babygirl

all really fair points anon!!

i think it’s just the way i see it or prefer, i guess? i don’t think i ever claimed that theres evidence of mike being a sub, since i’m of the strong belief that there’s no evidence for their sexual dynamic at all.

it’s really just how i prefer to think about it if i had to pick my favorite dynamic or what i’d lean towards when i’m writing.. lmao i think we’re pretty much on the same page tho, since i’m also a top mike truther who thinks they’re equals. so, sure, soft vers is a great description - but my personal preference is that mike is perfectly fine submitting to whatever will says and (for the reasons i said) will is perfectly fine not only asking for what he wants but also taking care of mike bc he wants mike to feel so good (which there is huge evidence for in s4). i’m not forcing others to see it this way, it’s just what i like 🥲 (also i should note that this isn’t the only dynamic i like when thinking of byler concepts, i like it all 😮‍💨 but when talking about which part of their canon dynamic is most satisfying/realistic to me i guess?)

(but i’d rather not have more people come to my inbox saying ‘well what you’re describing is actually still dom mike,’ because to me it’s not. i don’t see him that way as a default/usual assumed dynamic for them.)

to address what you said about mike’s behaviors being more dominant-leaning even outside of supernatural stuff, i guess my stance is that you can’t really separate it? like the way he was in s2 from the start was bc he felt crazy about el being alive or not. and him being the softer version with will is yes bc he has a sense of feeling like he’s taking care of someone, ((((((which i could argue isn’t a traditionally masc role but i won’t)))))) but also because it’s a safe place for him. i agree with you that he is 1000% the de facto leader of their group. he also paralleled joyce a lot in s1 with his persistence in getting will back and getting the others on board, while also being the gentlest and most nurturing of the boys with eleven.

what i love about mike is that he isn’t a violent person, like, at all - and it’s shown in the times that he does try and defend himself/others - it’s unnatural. i love that he can be the leader who people look to for guidance but not because he demands it, he just is. he’s the quietest in the party when theyre at the arcade in s2. there’s a common theme of will trusting and confiding in him where he wouldn’t with others. themes of nurturing, safe haven, emotional intelligence, follow mike before the clear shift in s2-3 when things start to become unmanageable for him. there are a lot of things that set him apart from dustin and lucas in s1 as far as typical masc traits and how they treat el (especially noticeable with lucas, since he and mike have pretty similar motive to get will back).

as far as him not being soft or chill w will when he’s not in danger, i guess we’ll have to agree to disagree? i’m thinking about “another 90 miles, why” and the softness in his tone when theyre on the couch, before will discloses that 001 isn’t dead. demanding and aggressive isn’t his default in a comfort setting. it’s just something that’s easy to pick up on for me, something i enjoy exploring more of, and a cool thing about fanfiction is that ability to have different interpretations or see qualities in characters that you focus on more while others choose different ones to expound on.

i’ve always said i think it’s presumptuous to assume the mike we see, with his clear multitude of external pressures, is the one he’ll be years from now. (will too, but mike is the focus here). and it’s really not far fetched when you look at how he is in his earlier days that he’s softer than the typical boy and would likely level back to that when settled and regulated.

thanks for the ask & i’m glad my take made a little sense 🩵 i mostly end up word vomiting when it comes to the mike topic

[castlebyersafterdark]

you don't have to post this and not to add more pressure but I'd love a titanic au from you, I definitely trust you with it. would wait a long time for it! I love your idea for it and every other version I've seen doesn't twist the story to make it byler like for eg the french girls painting scene, they'd have mike all demure and dainty like rose and it's like... nooo imagine how different it is for two men of the time period! it's so much more interesting how will would feel there blushing at what he's drawing and how risqué it is.

someone did start writing a titanic au but right in the tags they're like "no smut no sexual attraction" like ugh why even fucking bother! in this au it's part of the thrill, I stopped reading because the lack of chemistry is upsetting when people in the fandom can't let go of being scared to have byler attracted to each other very simply.

I am going to post this and hope it's ok, just because it's worth talking about. Not to pick on anyone but it's important (and also to say) - no one HAS to write sex scenes or include anything explicit in their stories, but to specifically deny the mere concept of attraction and pose it as dirty and shameful, how dare you even THINK someone like ME would consider that... it's a problem. Especially considering the nature of the relationship people claim to be fans of so much. What is the damn point of loving these boys and wanting to create based on them? Their story is about overcoming shame and loving yourself and loving someone else... the fact that being gay means a man being ATTRACTED to other men and loving other men is the reason it's such a struggle to begin with and when fans deny that is even an aspect of them? Homophobic. We have to call it what it is, sorry. I was so meek and coddling about this fandom before but hmmmmmmn no more of that. I’ve established my view.

No one needs to talk about the stuff we do here in this corner as deeply and as graphically as we do, but we have to stand up and say OK, well, you don't have to participate or engage but we're not dirty or wrong for doing so. Sexuality is a neutral concept. Goal point.

Anyway, Titanic. It's such a specific pillar in our modern pop culture. I think it's expected with writing this AU, that a whirlwind romance is going to include something physical, some aspect of passionate attraction and probably sex. We don't need 1:1 retellings, but it's a part of it. Combining the class conflict of the movie with a sexuality struggle would be sooooo good and is why I'm interested in eventually maybe writing this. AU based on a familiar territory is cool to try to make work for the pairing. You gotta change things, not copy/paste characters onto a boat.

It's Titanic, there's gonna be a sketching scene, and Will is actually an artist. Make this vulnerable moment fit the characters personality and story. Maybe this is the first time he's ever allowed himself to Look, to be alone with a naked man. Mike might have teased him about the nudes in Will's sketchbook earlier in the story, and a defensive, flustered Will would have been quick to explain it was just a study during some art class, but also a somber moment of him admitting not being able to afford art school anymore, his only remaining money being used for his ticket for the voyage. And so, this is the first time Mike's allowed himself to feel vulnerable, to allow himself to succumb to what he wants, to acknowledge his sexuality in practical terms or something. I'd think it started as simply sitting for a sketch and the TENSION of Will shyly asking Mike to continue removing clothes as he works on what he truly wants to draw, and drawing out the process of Mike baring himself to Will. A true muse. It doesn't make as much sense for Mike to slink into the room and simply drop a robe. You gotta factor setting and character and time period and how we get these two men to go from strangers to lovers in a meaningful way. That's how I'd write the story.

Last thing on my WIP list currently, but I'm really interested in trying in the far future!!