#i think he's considerably 'better' than wwx

[cuckoo-among-beasts]

Every time I see JFM being soft with WWX and seemingly brushing off/ignoring JC, I want to punch him in the face.

[letteredlettered]

Hi! I would love to read a JC and WWX post and how it is diff from what you’ve seen in western media!

I'd already started writing a JC post, so I wrapped that in to answer your question.

I follow a few JC fans so I see the backlash to the haters more than I see any haters, but apparently there’s some question in some people’s mind about whether Jiang Cheng loves Wei Wuxian, and I find that a little silly. That said, I think that to understand MDZS’s JC at all, you cannot just read the surface, so if you’re not thinking about him as a person or giving him any consideration beyond what other characters say and think of him, you’re not doing him justice. You’re also not going to see that he loves WWX and also loves several other people quite deeply, because a) JC's never going to be affectionate in his dialogue, b) JC's not going to even be affectionate in his body language or minor actions, and c) WWX, the main viewpoint character, is never once going to think about whether JC likes him or loves him.

Lots of posts have outlined better than I will how deeply loves not only WWX, but also his family, in particular JL. The short version is: JC’s his major flaws are all related to him loving his parents and getting shown very little affection in return—none at all from his father and only some in a backhanded way from his mother, usually in comparison to WWX.

As for Jin Ling, JC threatens him all the time, and even shoves him around a bit, but Jin Ling obviously adores JC and feels adored. JC is the one Jin Ling goes to when he's crying; JC is also the one who leaps to JL's side when JL is hurt. JL knows he's in trouble with JC when JL does something unsafe, but JL knows that his own safety is the most important thing in JC's life. Tellingly, JL rarely takes any of JC's threats seriously, and even tells other people said threats are bogus.

Then there’s WWX. Even while JC is berating WWX endlessly for making their clan look bad, he is literally carrying around WWX on his back. He is protecting WWX with everything he has. He sacrifices himself to the Wens to WWX won't get caught. After their falling out, after WWX lied to him for years and got their sister killed, JC still can't even stop himself from protecting WWX when WWX might get hurt by JGY's guqin string.

The guy is willing to throw himself on the fire for anyone he loves. Just heaven forbid he express any of it. But because he does not express love through speech, Wei Wuxian (who I will point out is a talker) doesn't understand this about Jiang Cheng—and this is shown to be a consistent flaw that WWX has. He also does not understand that LWJ is in love with him, despite LWJ defying all of society to follow him around and lift him onto donkeys whenever WWX gets droopy.

But I'd add the pretty much no one, other than Jin Ling, understands this about Jiang Cheng. If the cultivation world had understood JC, they would not have believed that JC and WWX had actually had a falling out. Part of the reason people don't know him is the same reason JC has such a terrible time with everything—WWX steals everyone's attention, praise, and fear wherever they go. No one is really looking at JC to admire his devotion or his loyalty, because WWX is there, doing it better than him, always. Imagine LWJ+WWX hadn’t defeated the Tortoise of Slaughter and had just been holed up in that cave for six days. All anyone would’ve talked about was how deeply JC must love his shixiong to make it back in such record time. It would all be “heroic rescue” this “unflagging loyalty” that. But instead, LWJ+WWX  had to really just steal the limelight.

In fact, the book is partly about the fact that people don't analyze people's actions too deeply. They believe what they hear. They believe what they want to believe. JC really can just say "I reject WWX" and they believe it. JGS can really just say "WWX is evil" and they believe it. Everybody says LWJ is perfect, so they believe he can't be a cut-sleeve who is in love with WWX. And WWX, who knows better than anyone that rumors aren't true, believes it too.

Even after WWX's death, JC's reputation is locked onto WWX. I do think this is JC’s own fault, given that he can’t accept his brother’s death and is obsessed with him but idk. Canon demonstrates that there’s a huge difference between what JC says he’ll do if he finds WWX and what JC actually does, and it’s not because LWJ is in the way. But no one really seems to pay attention to the difference between what JC says and what he actually does when the chips are down, except JL, so it’s no wonder everyone says he has torture dungeons, no matter how ludicrous that is.

I think what makes JC’s love for WWX particularly complex, and particularly incomprehensible in the eyes of the cultivation world, is WWX's position in JC's family. JC thought of WWX as a brother. He loved him like a brother. And yet JC was deeply aware that WWX wasn't his brother. JC's mom made sure that JC was deeply aware of that at all times, and you know what, so did his dad. And then, the rest of the cultivation world constantly talked about the fact that WWX was not a part of the family, that the Jiang Clan raised him like a son but he was really the son of a servant. MXTX expertly shows that this fact gets trotted out whenever WWX does something questionable--when WWX is brilliant, he's a lauded member of the clan, but when he is bad, he is of low-birth and adopted through charity. The truth is, it’s an unusual relationship for a world in which there’s a pretty big different between your clan (blood relatives) and sect.

How can JC hold both of these truths in his head? What makes it bearable for JC is that when they grow up, JC will be the Sect Leader and WWX will be his right-hand man; they will do everything together; they will be brilliant together; they never have to worry about blood or debt then, because then it won't matter whether they're brothers or best friends; the difference won't matter. They can both be the head of a family that they love. Except that doesn't happen.

JC’s parents die, and WWX disappears. I will, at this point in my understanding and credit to Jiang Cheng, say that the part about JC I find hardest to swallow is that he partially blames his parents' death on WWX. Yes, WWX stayed behind in the cave of the Tortoise of Slaughter to save LWJ, and yes, this meant that Wen Chao and WLJ have a particular grudge against him, which they use as partial excuse to attack Lotus Pier, but by god, that's a stretch. Lotus Pier would have been attacked anyway, and the fact that JC even partly blames the attack on WWX has far more to do with what his mom said about WWX showing off for the glory and bringing down the wrath of the Wens than it has to do with reality. YZY is going to say anything she can about how WWX being a hero with the Tortoise of Slaughter was actually a bad thing, because it's so fucking painful for her that WWX is a fucking legend when her son just . . . isn't.

As JGY points out, they were in fact the strongest sect once WWX comes back from the Burial Mounds and fights the Sunshot Campaign with JC. They could have been the power couple of JC’s dreams, but just as YZY pits JC against WWX, the cultivation world after the war pitted WWX against themselves and by extension, JC, and JC buys into it. I find this super understandable, and I think it’s pretty unfair to expect JC to be more understanding of WWX, given that WWX is constantly lying to him. Similarly, I think it’s pretty understandable that he doesn’t understand the plight of the Wens, given that WWX doesn’t explain it to him at all. From JC’s POV, WWX just leaves, at a time when JC really needs him, and he does it on a crusade for unrelated people—as though he never considered himself part of the family in the first place.

And you know what, that may be WWX’s POV too. He loves the Jiang family like his own family, but he’s also deeply aware that he is not blood. MXTX makes it very clear in canon that WWX felt that he owed the Jiang Clan, and not in the way you owe a family. That is—he doesn’t owe them his existence, but he thinks he does owe them his core and his cultivation. And he gives it all to JC.

I outlined above that the relationship between JC and WWX is unusual in the cultivation world given that they each feel like the other is family but are consistently reminded of the fact, and pressured to believe, that they are only sect siblings and that WWX is actually a subordinate. I also haven’t found many relationships like this in other media—though I’ll point out once again that my experience is mainly with western media. I think the closest things I can think of are stories in which the parties are of a different class but are raised together for whatever reason—because they actually are somewhat related but one of them has low class relatives, or because they were not as well-supervised in their youth but  one of them suddenly comes into money and is forced to leave his low-class BFF behind, etc.

Given that this relationship is unusual, you don’t see a lot of situations like WWX’s, in which WWX feels like he owes the Jiang family his golden core and then gives it to him. But there’s another element to this sacrifice that I’ve only seen in one other piece of media, and that’s the fact that WWX knows that JC can’t live without being special, and WWX thinks he can handle it.

There is so much in western media about brothers giving up their lives to protect their brothers (Supernatural), or even just giving up their dreams and ambitions so that their brother can follow his own dreams instead (It’s a Wonderful Life). But these sacrifices are always framed as “I love him so much,” or “It’s my duty” or “I couldn’t live with myself if he didn’t get what he wanted” and sometimes even, “I can handle the suffering and I don’t want him to live with it.” But there’s something about WWX’s “eh it’s not a big deal to me  and it is to him” or his “bro’s kinda petty and can’t get over himself, whatchu gonna do” that feels stupidly singular.

WWX never says it isn’t a big deal. He never said that it didn’t hurt or that he didn’t make a sacrifice. He never said JC was pathetic or a loser or anything that diminishes JC or makes him less than he is. What he says is that JC is always competitive and comparing himself to others, which is true. But the other sacrifices in fiction that come close are a little more “I don’t want you to have to suffer” or even “I’m strong, and you’re weak, so I’ll take on this burden for you.” Meanwhile WWX doesn’t think JC is weak, and while WWX doesn’t want to suffer, he certainly doesn’t want to suffer himself. The sentiment feels closer to “you need to feel special so I’ll make that happen for you,” and there’s something about it that is a little condescending.

I mentioned that I’ve only seen this kind of thing one other time, and it was in a baseball anime called Touch that aired in Japan in the 1980s. Touch is a story about twins, one of whom is smart, talented, and works hard. The other twin, Tatsuya, is good in school and good at baseball, but at first seems like a lazy guy who only cares about joking around and having fun. Then you find out he’s a genius and a one-in-a-lifetime talent, but just never bothered to focus on anything because he’s so stupidly good at everything that he would just show his brother up, and his brother cares about excelling and Tatsuya doesn’t, so he just…was careful to never apply himself to anything.

WWX isn’t Tatsuya, in that when they’re on an even playing field, WWX doesn’t really seem to have any compunctions about showing off. But as soon as the playing field becomes uneven, he also has no compunctions about destroying himself so that JC’s competitive spirit is satisfied. There’s something about it that has a flavor of “I’m better than you,” even if it’s never what WWX meant to communicate. No wonder JC feels like a clown.

Like, in the end, WWX kind of did make a fool of JC, even though WWX did it out of both love and loyalty. I'm not sure I've ever read or seen anything else where such a sacrifice has such ambiguity, and it really makes the WWX+JC relationship one of the most complicated I've seen.

[fincalinde]

for your ask meme: wei wuxian?? 👀

Since I've got some new followers over the past couple of days (who knew what branching out from Xiyao would do for my reputation!), I'll once again add the disclaimer that I write MDZS meta and not CQL meta. I'm aware that in CQL, WWX is characterised somewhat differently. I have thoughts on that too, but I'm not immersed enough in CQL to commit to sharing them publicly.

Since WWX is the main character and appears in almost every scene, I won't attempt to write a thesis statement on him. (You cannot afford my hourly rate.) Instead I've decided to focus on an aspect of WWX that I feel is often overlooked or sanitised. That is to say:

WWX is extremely annoying.

He's not just irritating, or overly exuberant, or a touch too arrogant. He is infuriatingly obnoxious.

Obviously WWX is also brave and often well-meaning. He loves deeply, even if he consistently lets down the people who care about him. He's strong-willed enough to abide by his own sense of morality in the face of overwhelming disapproval and danger, and arrogant enough to make unilateral decisions when it would be better for all concerned if he took a step back. He's bad at big picture thinking and rarely considers the full ramifications of his actions, but he's also incredibly adept at getting out of scrapes, and he has an admirable if also somewhat depressing ability to shrug off pain and suffering that is the result of his difficult days on the streets and his mistreatment by YZY. 

And he's obnoxious.

I do think it often gets forgotten, because Wangxian is intended to be a love story and it's much more tempting to write sweeping romance and charming banter than hark back to all the canonical moments in which characters, including LWJ, genuinely want to throttle him to death.

He never shuts up! He's constantly laughing far too loudly and for too long. He's the sort of person who thinks it's funny to pull the rug out from under someone in a conversation so they end up discomfited and embarrassed. I fully understand that a large part of his hectoring LWJ is a precursor to his later romantic interest and is in line with his flirtation style, but the fact remains that he goads LWJ beyond the point of endurance on multiple occasions. LWJ just happens to be a weird dude who's really into it.

A good example of what I mean is when Wangxian encounter each other at Phoenix Mountain. WWX asks LWJ if he's ever kissed someone, then proceeds to speculate that LWJ has never been kissed and will never be kissed. LWJ doesn't seem to mind this at first, and only becomes angered when WWX lies about having been kissed before himself (oh LWJ), but it's important to remember that WWX has no idea that LWJ has any interest in him whatsoever. From WWX's perspective, he's just having fun belittling someone else over a topic that for most young people is a sensitive one. I don't want to oversell this moment and claim that it's bullying, actually, but I do want to use it to highlight that WWX is not always a considerate person and this type of behaviour is teeth-achingly thoughtless and cringeworthy.

I could go on, but if you pick any given scene including WWX you're likely to see dialogue in which he's being actively annoying to other characters, intentionally or otherwise. This isn't an attack on him, just an observation that in order to write him in a canon consistent manner he should be not just witty and chatty in a way where other characters simply roll their eyes and keep going. He should genuinely actually aggravate them and it should have consequences within the scene. Characters such as JC and WQ care about WWX but also find him infuriating, and that's with good reason—never mind the juniors, whom WWX takes pleasure in messing with. There are many characters who feel great respect and affection for WWX, and every single one of them also regularly feels deep frustration and irritation towards him too. There should be some meat on the bones of any back and forth between them.

[tbgkaru-woh]

hi hi hi!!! since last time u asked for hcs or ideas, and i couldn't come up with any in the moment, I AM HERE TO SHARE (mine) AND ASK UR OPINIONS ON XIANXUAN (WWX X JZX) NOW... 😩

dont even get me started, personally for me, its HARD TO NOT ship two men who have punched each other for at least once in their life. AND WHEN THEY BOTH ACTUALLY HV CONSIDERATION FOR EO DEEP DOWN LIKE from hating each other's guts to punching each other's face to competing to an extent (over one girl literally) to actually having no hard feelings for each other to having consideration deep down for each other to believing in each other (to love the girl genuinely) to wwx accidentally and unintentionally killing jzx to mourning over his death and blaming himself for all of it to living again and taking care of his child...😩 i...ok half of the grief came bcs of shijie but ONE CAN IMAGINE AAAAH.

im sorry for making this long, help. (honestly ure the first ever acc i have found shipping them in one of ur arts so i HAVE to rant omg)

i love their dynamic sm, somehow i want wwx to top jzx at any fucking cost. WHY ?! because he wanna prove he's better and better and BETTER than this fucking peacock and he wanna crush his attitude so bad like...and jzx just tryna keep up with him and this fucker is back with new tricks to put him where he belongs. then ends up putting him under himself. oMG. help. im crazy. bye.

SJSHSKSK MY GOD. looks like im gonna go on a brainrot.

They were some of the most obvious to me too only to find no one talking about them, I guess the whole WangXian tunnel-vision and Jin Zixuan not having a fandom will do that to a dynamic.

I just hoped in canon they'd have...more. I wanted to see their arc, I wanted them to fight side by side, wanted to see Zixuan defend Wei Wuxian in front of the gossipy pricks and his word mattering to them, wanted to see Wei Wuxian punch someone for Jin Zixuan, instead of punching him for Yanli.

Straight Zixuan is also extremely boring to me and him secretly crushing on the brothers, maybe even popping a boner while wwx gets REAL CLOSE to him during a fight and needing to leave RIGHT NOW... He'll be a good bridge between the two, he's quiet, arrogant and loyal to duty as Jiang Cheng is, but wwx is what he wished he could be like in certain aspects, not to say that with their constant teasing and play-fights, some truths will come out sooner rather than later.

And when it comes to smut I love to imagine that something that starts as a hate fuck with neither backing down but both their inexperience starts showing but unlike jzx who's more honestly embarrassed about it, wwx has this fake confidence and "need-to-take-cate-of" impulse that turn it into something a bit clumsy but respectful and with a genuine goal of the other enjoying it. Maybe wwx can keep it as their secret,as jzx parades himself around like the straight guy people think he is afterwards.

[admirableadmiranda]

Hi! I have an perhaps silly question!

I am currently reading volume 4 & 5 of the official translation. Up till now, I didn't have that many problems with it (mostly because it's been years since I read the fan one and since I don't speak Chinese and English isn't my first language the only thing I noticed at first was that it... read ? Better if that makes sense? It was easier at least.

But I have. Concerns. Does Wei Wuxian truly say fuck (or whatever equivalent there is in swear words) all the time? Because I noticed it in vol 4 and now I keep seeing it! I know he's supposed to be pretty informal, but that + the way he speaks sometimes ("I know I've got a bad rep" ??? "What are you doing on my turf"???) keep taking me out of the story xD idk if it's because I took a break in my rereading and got used to fics modifying his speech patterns... but given that when I'm writing mdzs fics I usually make sure to... idk adapt the speech patterns so they're not too modern sounding? Am I overthinking this? Should I let wwx say fuck all the time?? XD

Hope this doesn't bother you and thank you in advance for your answer!!

Hi! Hello again! How’s it going?

So full disclosure I have not read the official translation in full yet, but uhh… yeah I’ve seen more than enough of Suika’s prose to know that there’s something off about the way she translates WWX that just eliminates an important element of his character.

For what you’re saying between ExR and Suika’s translations with Suika being easier to read, I get that. ExR has a lot of trouble with tenses and plenty of times they use a word that’s not quite what they actually want it to mean, so it takes more work to read what they intend to say over what the text says, but Suika’s text only really is improved by being cleaned up, @kimalysong and @jiangwanyinscatmom have a lot of posts on text either vastly altered from the intent or lines just flat out missing, if you’re curious about going down the rabbit hole of the official translation.

Now WWX does swear on occasion, especially when he’s younger and using the rougher Yunmeng dialect, but the other lines you’ve quoted tend to have Suika’s usual problem of making lower class characters speak roughly and often with southern accents regardless of how they sound in Chinese or with consideration to the character at hand. Wei Wuxian has an incredible grasp of language and literally switches linguistic registers depending on who he’s talking to and what the situation is and given some of his lines that I’ve seen in the official translation compared to stuff in exr or that my friend has translated for me, it seems like Suika has flattened all of that out in favor of her usual style of handling lower class characters.

I think you’re noticing it because it’s at odds with everyone else’s translations and grasp of WWX. While ExR has its own troubles with grammar at times, you can still see the strength in his language usage, to say nothing of Fanyiyi and Taming Wangxian’s translations which are much more solid on that front(@mxtxfanatic has posts comparing the language uses between exr, Fanyiyi and Taming Wangxian if you’re curious) and really lay out a well spoken character who can adjust his speech as needed (and drop the occasional precision fuck strike when needed).

I am not impressed by Suika’s way of translating characters speech especially as it pertains to Wei Wuxian, and I think you’re right to say that it feels weird. Don’t follow her style of speech, continue to write a WWX who absolutely understands the tangled web of a world he lives in and adjusts his language for the person at hand consistently.

[symphonyofsilence]

i feel like mdzs doesn't have a happy ending at all, or like doesn't feel "complete". wwx runs away from the past but is reminiscing constantly and that never gets solved. the whole premise of gossip and mob mentality also doesn't get solved because jgy was guilty and so it was justified?? like... i don't know how to feel about this book. is it badly written or purposely incomplete? are the main couple so nonsensical in their displays of love because it's commentary or because it's actually romantic?

I agree that it doesn't have a happy ending. The only character that I can think of that got an actual happy ending is Mianmian. And maybe LWJ. WWX is happy and satisfied at the end of the novel on the surface but just as you said, he keeps reminiscing and he didn't get closure for all of the considerable trauma he went through -up to and including dying. And he clearly wants to go back to Lotus Pier. I think it's supposed to be a bittersweet ending.

I think the gossip and mob mentality never gets solved because realistically it will never get solved. All it can be is addressed and warned about. And I think where we get this is precisely when JGY was guilty of some sins but what the people gossiped about was exactly what he wasn't guilty of. Immediately after his death, people started to gossip about how he was so narcissistic that he made a statue of himself to be worshipped. While that statue was actually his mother's. WWX here notes that:

But there was no use in saying all that. Nobody knew with more clarity than Wei WuXian that nobody would care and nobody would believe him. Anything related to Jin GuangYao would be given the most malicious conjectures and passed through the mouths of the crowd

WWX draws parallels between himself & JGY the moment the crowd turns against JGY & asks WWX for help, too. Then in the inn, WWX overhears people speculating about why JGY left Sisi alive. And this goes so far that even people who were gossiping eagerly at that table feel uncomfortable. But the crowd still goes on shamelessly. Noting that nobody knows who they are here. Indicating that they know what they're doing is shameful, but they don't care. Even the phrase "what goes around, comes around" which at the beginning of the story was used for WWX by the people at the inn, is used for JGY too at the end.

But we're given a glimpse of hope for the future of society through the next generation. Children who saw the notorious MXY and trusted him accepted his help and advice, and eventually accepted him, Children, who gave the Yiling Laozu and the ghost general a chance to prove themselves and when they did, they changed their minds and defended them. Children who started shipping Wangxian before WWX himself did-or knew that he was gay. Through JL helping MXY escape from JC even if he was still weary of him because of the previous scandal that got him kicked out of the Jin Sect, giving him a second chance, supporting his relationship with LWJ, overcoming his internalized homophobia, and JL who saw that even if JGY, WWX, and WN gave him reasons to hate them they also gave him reasons to love them, and chose to not choose hate, and chose to mourn JGY, JL who when scolded for mourning JGY by the most notorious gossiper of the old generation in the story he told him off.

I do agree that the story is sort of incomplete. But I think it's incomplete in a complete way-...I'm not making any sense. what I mean is that I think it's narratively complete, but the story of the characters still goes on. But they each do get a closure, for better or for worse. and that's where we leave them. Right after they get their closures. But what they will do with the rest of their lives is left unsaid. But it didn't need to be said. The main story that the book told; the Sunshot Campaign, The 5 great sects, 3 Zun, Yi City Arc, and Wangxian all came to their ends. no subplot was left without a resolution and no character was left with an unknown fate. NHS's years-long revenge plot came to fruit and he saw the demise of the man who killed his brother, that was the end of the 3 Zun and NHS's only goal for many years and he achieved that, but now he's left with the dusty hat of his san-ge, and a sect that he's more or left driven to ruin, and none of his family and friends. He will come to be the next Xiandu, but he will be the loneliest social butterfly. LXC finally found out the truth about JGY's deeds and how his other sworn brother got killed, and he chose to still love JGY, he chose to die with him, and when he was saved by JGY in the last minute, he knew that his love was returned. and now he's the only one left of the 3 Zun, and with the knowledge that A-Yao would never move against him. Maybe one day he can go back to be Lan-Zongzhu, maybe one day he can wield Shouyue and not see A-Yao's blood on it, maybe one day he can celebrate his brother finally getting together with his beloved, maybe he can still not end up like his father, but not today. LSZ now knows about his Wen heritage, he now has an undead biological family member & he will reconcile his Wen and Lan heritage and honor what remains of his long-gone sect. Along with Wen Ning who now has a last-living family member, and will try to find his new purpose in life...or death. SL goes around the world to continue his quest with XXC now with XXC's sword and the hope to one day see his reincarnation again. JL has almost all the truths and he has decided what to do with it, He will not choose hatred & anger, he will give people second chances. he will mourn what's to be mourned and move on with his life. Being a sect leader at his age is not easy and he's still struggling and stumbling & he needs to learn to ask for help more. but he's doing his best and he has his uncles and his friends to help him. JC now knows what WWX has done for him, why he needed to do what he eventually came to do, how he honored their sect, and why he left, even if I think WWX didn't correctly communicate to him that he loved JC personally and what he did wasn't only out of duty, and JC with his insecurity and unshakable belief that he's unlovable wouldn't reach this conclusion, he more or less got closure and he can now step in the path of healing. He who was continuously after WWX in both halves of the story in the end stopped JL from following WWX and said "Let everyone go back to where they belong." He would go back to being Jiang-Zongzhu and JL's jiujiu and since what he most cares about is his sect and family I think as long as those two are fine he would be content, if not necessarily happy, and maybe one day, he and WWX will reconcile, too. And Wangxian have each other. WWX has someone who he knows will catch him if he jumps down from a tree. and LWJ will not let thousand-year rules dictate to him what is wrong and what is right, won't see the world in black and white, won't let his sect stand between him and happiness, and will love someone flawed freely and untamed, and flawed. And maybe one day WWX will go back to Lotus Pier and drink Lotus Wine with JC and know that he had always had and will always have a home and a family there.

The ending of MZDS is I think above all, realistic. and in reality, life goes on. and every ending is a new beginning. we left the characters at the end of the story but there is a whole universe still going on inside the book where the characters will go on with their lives after the storm, and they will live on inside our minds as well. I think the way their stories are not entirely complete is actually a very incredible way for the characters to forever live in our minds. For instance, if JC told WWX about his sacrifice the Yunmeng Shuangjie fully reconciled and went back to what they were we wouldn't have this much collective brainrot as we have now. And realistically, WWX's and JC's relationship couldn't go back to what it was that quickly, it needed a whole book of its own.

It's also one of the reasons that I think WWX's issues being unresolved is intentional. BC realistically people stick to the coping mechanisms they know and if WWX thinks that repressing, ignoring, running away, and pretending that everything is fine has worked so far for him, then he wouldn't let it go. Especially since overconfidence is also one of his character flaws. He knows best. (so much that he even makes decisions for other people. And assumes their feelings and thoughts without ever asking them about them) If he thinks it's fine then it's fine. And the way he had to face his repressed emotions about the core transfer when JC made him talk about it for the first and only time, how he quickly turned away from JC after the Guanyin Temple before he could say anything, and how he kept repressing his emotions and yearning for LP & his remaining family (he stops himself before asking more about JC & JL from the Juniors in the extras), and is maladjusted in the CR show that MXTX hasn't just forgotten about it. She does see it as an unresolved issue. And when MXTX truly wants to give her characters growth she will do it. [Spoiler for TGCF & SVSSS] like how Shen Yuan finally comes to embrace his feelings for LBH & his own identity & his emotional- openness and breaks away from the way the system wants him to act and becomes his true self. And the way Xie Lian finally lets go of his guilt over Wu Ming and learns what he told HC is also true for himself, too ("what matters is you, and not the state of you.") And he gets free from his shackles. He has a real, genuine talk with MQ & he reconciles with his two best friends. He even forgives Jun Wu. And everyone except Beefleaf and Junmei gets a happy ending.

about Wangxian...well, I honestly don't know what's with all this romanticizing non-con in the romance genre. I don't really think it's in the book to be criticized. What MXTX does is that she acknowledges that those are wrong things to do with LWJ being distressed by what he's done when he kisses WWX without his consent, and WWX feeling guilty after he kisses LWJ when he's drunk but not enough to stop doing that and then feeling guilty again when he does the do with him when he's drunk after that (until LWJ just fully goes for it without asking for consent or paying any attention to WWX's protests AGAIN but now skips the guilt phase), Fengqing being horrified by HC's stalking and obsession and HC feeling ashamed, too, and LQG & SQQ being horrified by LBH's obsession, stalking, imposing and non-con advances. But then it all gets solved by the good ol' "jokes on you they're into that". (Except for SQQ I think) So I guess those are there in the story to, as what some with those specific kinks would say, spice things up.

And as for the lack of communication, MXTX does satirize it in SVSSS where LBH's advances are seen as murder attempts by SQQ but I think in MDZS it's there to create drama and slow-burn and highlight the depth of LWJ's love when LXC finally explains to WWX that all this time LWJ has believed that WWX knows that he loves him, has rejected him & his flirtings are only mocking his feelings but still has chosen to dedicate himself to WWX & follow him around everywhere for the rest of his life (and we know this kind of devotion and following one's loved-one everywhere and helping them whenever necessary but never undermining their decisions is how MXTX depicts true love with HC saying to XL "I'm forever your most devoted believer", SQQ saying to LBH "this time, wherever you go, this master will accompany you." And SQH saying to Mobei Jun "My king, please let me follow you the rest of my life!". Usually, there are supporting characters who are also loyal and loving towards the MC and used to always follow and help them (JC, FX & MQ), but due to some other concerns, they had to leave the MC. But the love interest's priority is always the MC & nothing can set them apart.) the lack of communication is very in character for both of them as both of them are people who would rather (literally) die than talk about their feelings. And WWX just DOESN'T understand when people show their love for him with acts of service. So I'd say it depicts two flawed people in love with each other.

[nothoughtheadempty]

So I saw the Erha post. Based of the notes I'm sure people are going of at you right now and while I will say the way you worded your post was kinda rude I wanted to approach you in good faith and give my view of the stuff you mentioned.

You say you find Mo Ran awful but I find him to be a complex and fascinating character. He starts of very flawed and confused but the story quickly starts unraveling and challenging that. This then increases as we see him and Xia Sini and the softer moments between him and CWN after. Then when the HR opens he faces a massive shit in perspective which sees him realise his mistakes and start the work to become a better person. 0.5 TXJ is an awful person but if you read as far as you did then you should have picked up on enough of the hints to known there's more going on behind that.

Beyond that I cannot understand the claim that MR's bad behavior isn't challenged by the narrative? It very much is and he is forced to recon with the consequences of his actions both as TXJ and MR 1.0 a lot over the course of the story.

I also don't know where you are getting the claim that CWN thinks of love as a contract or that MR shames CWN for his body. TXJ does do that but the story calls his behavior out and has them deal with that.

If you didn't like SM or get his plan that's fair, I think it works but that's personal taste. I guess all of it is personal taste to a degree but (and I don't mean to be rude here) you seem to have somehow read through enough of the story to reach that reveal without noticing any of the character development.

I saw someone in the notes say you like WangXian so imagine if someone complained about them and said that WWX only fell for LWJ because he had no other options and felt indebted to him. Or called LWJ cold and unfeeling? I'd say the text of MDZS proves that false and I'd say the same about Erha.

I hope that clears up some stuff.

hi, thank you so much for reaching out!

after your response (as well as the other ones) I realised that I wasn't being really nice barging in the fandom's tag with that attitude, it was kinda rude and I apologize

I must say that I read the novel a while ago, so my memory may also be biased, but I feel like that the character development didn't "cover" (sorry I don't have a better word for that) the negative aspects I saw in the story, that are also obviously easier to remember

despite that, I now understand where you all are coming from, especially considering that I might have glossed over some important aspects of the plot by focusing more on the duo's relationship

the wangxian comparison is interesting to me because I actually never taught about it this way, I see it as totally valid point and I should take it in more consideration

thank you again for taking the time to help me clear things up, I'll also make a new post tagging everyone in the replies to answer them as well

I hope I was able to explain myself better than before

have a nice day!

[llycaons]

“That was a long time ago. He doesn’t have those friends anymore and he doesn’t think that way, A-Ying.” “How do you know that?” “You should tell him about this,” she insists instead of answering his question. “He might surprise you.”

[...]

“I asked a simple question,” Jiang Cheng says, “But I was told to mind my business.” “Because it’s not your business,” Wei Ying says, uncharacteristically sharp. “He really isn’t minding his business, Yanli,” Huaisang adds unhelpfully. “I’m sure Jiang Cheng was just curious,” Yanli tries to soothe, because she knows Jiang Cheng is particularly sensitive to feeling left out. “Curious, that’s one word for it.” Wei Ying tilts his head. “I think it suits you, Jiang Cheng. You’re very curious lately. Is there anything I can sate your curiosity about? Any other little questions occupying your mind?” “You know what?” Jiang Cheng seethes. “Fuck you. You deserve to get caught. They have special prisons for people like you here, you know.” “I’d rather be in jail than look at your face.” Wei Ying is unbothered and dismissive, which he knows is the worst thing he can do to Jiang Cheng.

back to complaining about the treatment of homophobia. it's just so weird to me that jyl's reaction to and support of wwx's sexuality was handled with such grace and compassion, while jc's deal was handled by just forgiving him for everything even though he was acting considerably worse.

when jc confronts wwx about not coming out to them it's very angry, and presented as him being sensitive about being left out. in 1963, when wwx could literally go to jail for it??? of course he has the right to keep it private! but it's just written as though jc's reaction is, while unfortunate, is ultimately forgivable even though he goes and sets really horrible things to wwx and never apologizes or admits to being wrong.

like. wwx was nervous about this because he didn't know how jc would react and wwx is at CONSIDERABLE risk here so why the fuck is jc so easily forgiven for reacting in a shitty way the way wwx was WORRIED ABOUT! I don't think wwx being mean to him back is really indicitive that they're even or that he's okay with it? obviously he's going to defend himself using the tools he has...like wwx is obviously hurt but jyl sits there and tries to make jc feel better as if he wasn't the one to say such a horrible thing! why would wwx just let that blow over after being disrespected like that! ugh some authors treat him like their precious 26 year old minor tsundere who never has to change or apologize for anything because he feels left out and it's so annoying. as if he's incapable of thinking of someone else for once in his life??? yeah what a great brother. 'he's already forgiven you it's what older siblings do' just kill me

[winepresswrath]

The crossover between my She-Ra feelings and my Untamed feelings leaves me feeling slightly awkward and exposed. Like yes fine there are some themes and relationship beats I happen to enjoy. What of it.

[thebiscuiteternal]

Ahahaha, after telling Nonnie I was gonna post this, I completely forgot to actually post this and just left it sitting in drafts. Whoopsie. So! More little snippets and such from my twitter.

- Everybody mocks the sect descended from butchers until a boar demon the size of a city grain warehouse goes down and nobody else can deal with the carcass because it’s just too fucking big. By the time the thing has been taken apart and properly dispersed, the entire jianghu has had an Awakening to the fact that Some People (even the small cute one) are at their hottest when mostly covered in demon blood.

- Bitty!Huaisang tags along with his brother on some sect business to Yueyang and while he and his minder are eating lunch in the markets, he notices a street kid staring at the food like a starving wolf. Without thinking, he puts a plate of duck buns in easy reach and watches it and the kid vanish. By the end of the day, he’s practically forgotten about the whole thing, distracted by other stuff. But even more bitty!Xue Yang has just found himself a mark.

- Thinking about Nie Bros and how Huaisang decided early on that annoyance and exasperation were better than condescending pity and started playing up his lazy behavior to cover for his body’s failure to keep up and how Mingjue knows this, but has to make himself believe that Huaisang could do better if he actually tried, because otherwise he would constantly be swamped with guilt over the fact that he will inevitably be leaving his sickly brother to handle the sect.

- AND ON THAT NOTE, thinking about the fact that for all Huaisang is considered a pathetic cultivator, literally none of the adaptations have him “showing his age” more than cultivators who are supposed to be leagues more powerful than him, and even the novel just describes him as being pretty. Therefore, thinking of the possibility that all his desperate efforts to find Da-ge’s missing body pieces and/or soul wound up strengthening his golden core considerably (and he was Not Happy when he realized this) but no one noticed because he was that effective at keeping up the hapless idiot act.

- Rule 63!Huaisang where literally none of the Nie family dynamics have changed and everyone else is very ????? about it. Some Rando: “Shouldn’t your brother be getting you married instead of throwing a saber at you?” Huaisang: “Have you met my sect?”

- Nie-er-furen and Lan-furen were both yao, but Mama Nie was a cat and Mama Lan was a rabbit. Therefore, when the older brothers tried to introduce Nie Huaisang and Lan Zhan, Lan Zhan’s new instincts went “Predator!” and that is why Nie Huaisang has bite scars.

- Mo Xuanyu escaping Koi Tower and going to live with the (extremely grudgingly acknowledged) Yiling Wei sect, featuring Wei Wuxian being an absolute gremlin about his disciple’s crush on Nie Huaisang while still oblivious/in denial to Lan Wangji’s crush on him. WWX: “Follow your dreams and get your man!” MXY: “...Okay. So when are you gonna take your own advice and let Hanguang-jun court you?” WWX: “Haha, what? That’d never happen, Lan Zhan likes girls.” MXY (to NHS later): “So my sect leader might actually be an idiot.”

- Wei Wuxian in a Number Five situation. Fucks up an experimental talisman and winds up chucked  into an apocalyptic future (maybe even one demonic cultivation caused?) and is trapped there for decades before being slung back into his "just started raising corpses" age. Bonus points if it is a zombie apocalypse, but he doesn’t realize it because what evidence he was able to find pointed to the Sunshot Campaign having lost, so when he gets back to his present time, he starts working even harder at building up enough of an army to fight the Wens...

- So my personal headacanon is already that all of Jin Guangshan’s kids look more like their mothers than him because he doesn’t deserve anything good. But. Imagine the emotional/social fuckery if every single one of his bastards had at least some of his features, while Jin Zixuan is a male carbon copy of Jin-furen.

- The assumption that the original soul would be obliterated during the body sacrifice ritual was just that: an assumption. Wei Wuxian doesn't realize this until the first sect conference after Guanyin Temple when he sees his own reflection glare at him and then wrap the exhausted-looking reflection of Nie Huaisang into a reassuring embrace as the man discusses something or other with a minor sect leader.

aaaand everything else I was thinking about pulling over would be long enough for their own “Things I will probably never write” posts, so that’s all for this go round!

[annalacerda17]

Hi......if you don't mind me asking, can I ask, who are your top 5 favorite characters from MDZS? And why? And what are your top 5 (or top 3) fav moments from the novel? Sorry if you've answered this question before.....Thanks.....

Hi, I don't mind at all!

I haven't answered this before, so here I go.

Favorite characters:

1 - Definitely Wei Wuxian! He has everything I like in a character. He has a strong personality, he's funny and fun to read about, he's very intelligent, he's considerate and compassionate, caring and nurturing, always tried to make the best of a situation, doesn't wallow in self pity, he's not afraid to apologize when he feels he should but doesn't accept blame for things he didn't do , either. He never let his circumstances define him, he never allowed others to dictate what his place in the world should be and who he is allowed to be as a person, he's confident and trusts his own judgement, he's incredibly skilled but still has believable difficulty overcoming the challenges the narrative put in his path without needing to be dumbed down, he's competent, he's such a genuinely good person and I adore him.

2 - Definitely Lan Wangji. He's only slightly behind WWX. Like WWX, he's a genuinely good person, he's intelligent, perceptive and, unlike every other character in his social position, he's not blinded by privilege. What I love the most about his character is that he was able to recognize his shortcomings in the past and worked to overcome them without blaming others or being hypocritical about it. I like that he never holds WWX responsible for his own feelings, be it his love or his jealousy, and never expects him to change himself to accommodate his feelings. He's the most successful parental figure in the entire book, too. WWX's perfect match.

3 - Wen Ning. He's cinnamon roll with a secret savage side that only comes out when the ppl he cares about are threatened. What's not to love? But seriously, he's a good person who, despite not being very strong and not being particularly powerful within his sect, still chose to actively help WWX and JC because it was the right thing to do, even though he barely knew WWX and didn't care about JC's general existence. He did what he believed was right despite the great risk to himself and his family. It's no wonder he and WWX are best friends, as they share the same values.

4 - Wen Qing. She's queen. WQ is the best sister ever. She's protective, compassionate, intelligent and competent. I love her. She's a badass woman who never killed anyone, she's strong and she loved her family so much, including WWX. Her ending was so tragic, too. She deserved the world.

5 - The Juniors. I love them, they're so fun to read about. I especially love it when WWX teaches them. They give me hope for the future of the cultivation world. To me, although by the end of the novel, the social structures that allowed everything to go wrong are still in place and society hasn't really changed, just traded targets, it doesn't mean things will never change. One person, no matter how powerful, can't singlehandedly change the world, what they can do is touch the hearts of ppl. To me, although WWX didn't change the world, he did manage to touch the hearts of those juniors, the next generation, and it means that although it didn't happen immediately, eventually things will change for the better.

As for my favorite scenes, that's a really difficult question. I love the whole book, and to me, MDZS is the type of book where the scenes gain more significance when we look at them collectively rather than individually. But I'll try to rank my favorite moments here:

1 - definitely the confession scene. I love it because WWX really opens his heart to LWJ in this scene. Previously, WWX had always been guarded with his feelings for LWJ, he thought of excuses for his actions just in case LWJ reacted badly, he kept testing LWJ. We see in the past arcs, when he talks to JYL, that WWX used to think of love as something akin to a debt, a belief that was reinforced by the behavior of the ppl around him. So, when we look at WWX's character arc, his willingness to open his heart like that, in the middle of a hostage situation of all things, shows how sincere he is. And it's a beautiful confession. He takes care to clarify all of LWJ's points of doubt ( we've seen before that LWJ was afraid that WWX was only reciprocating his feelings out of gratitude, etc.)

2 - When WWX let's himself fall off that tree and LWJ catches him. It's a beautiful moment. I like how it parallels his fall when he was a child, and JYL failed to catch him. To me, this was the moment I felt LWJ was would never fail to be there for WWX. Like, I already knew that, because he'd been staying by WWX's side through a lot by then, but this moment cements it for me.

3 - The first time LWJ calls WWX "Wei Ying" post-resurrection and WWX realizes LWJ had known his identity the entire time. I love this moment because JC had just mocked WWX about LWJ not knowing his identity, which really hurt him. He was scared LWJ really was only helping him because he didn't know who he was, so when it turns out LWJ had always known, it's both reassuring and sweet.

4 - basically every moment when WWX is teaching the juniors. I love all of them. We get to see all the best parts of WWX.

5 - any time when someone accused WWX of doing something to them and WWX is like "who are you?"

[plan-d-to-i]

You know, I've been thinking about Lan Xichen a lot lately. On the one hand, I never liked him as a character, because he is a representation of what the MDZS world is like. Basically, he is only good if he clearly has options that are either black or white.

But he never finds out for himself how these possibilities are. On the other hand, in Wei Wuxian's second life, all he had against him was that the WWW was constantly unknowingly flirting with Lan Wangji, hurting him. Lan Xichen knew that LWJ loved WWX and did not understand that WWX did not see it. I understand that frustrated him. But what I have to leave to him is the fact that he didn't hold back against WWX what happened at the end of his first life. I think when he was part of the siege on the Burial Mounds, he realized what kind of people WWX was trying to protect, and so he tried to make up for his mistake in WWX's second life by being willing to start over.

Correct me if I'm wrong 🙏

Hm…If LXC had been a representation of the average person in MDZS... there probably wouldn't have been a novel. There would've been no conflict. Side note: LXC wasn't at the siege on the Burial Mounds.

I don't know how LXC could have acted better. LXC wasn't WWX's Clan Leader. It's not like LWJ and WWX were bosom buddies in WWX's first life. WWX didn't even think they were friends. If LXC had been suspicious of JGY and tossed him aside without any consideration at the first accusation he would've been a bad friend. Ungrateful to the man who saved his life when he was on the run. Perhaps biased against him because of his birth. If LXC doesn't take LWJ's word when the proof comes from WWX - he asks LWJ if he personally saw NMJ's head w his own eyes, which he did not- fandom thinks he's a bad guy for not blindly trusting a virtual stranger over his sworn brother. I think him sheltering WWX, having him treated in the CR and then listening to them and moving to investigate - not to mention taking WWX into the secret pavilion in the library and rescinding JGY's token is as well as he could have done while coming to terms w the person JGY truly was. Better than most. Poor LXC isn't a mastermind (he's not an idiot either I'm not here for all that himbo stuff). He's a nice person. I think simple, open people like that generally find it particularly hard to imagine the ulterior motives and machinations of someone like JGY -not that JGY gave him much reason to suspect anything.

[fincalinde]

nice to see you back on here! if you're answering questions again, i've had something i've been meaning to ask, if you don't mind. do you have any thoughts on the things wwx and jc did for each other?

I'm never truly gone. Whenever you see a fox scurrying about its business in the twilight, I am with you in spirit. By which I mean I'm very busy but I do get a notif if someone sends me an ask.

This one has sat in my drafts for a while and it's still quite messy, but I thought I'd better just get it off the to do list and move on. So, the Twin Heroes!

I've seen quite a bit of negativity towards JC in my time, usually accusing him of all manner of iniquities that aren't actually supported by the text. To make my own position clear: I don't think JC did nothing wrong ever in his life. But I do think he's a capable clan leader and an extremely loyal brother who tried very hard to make things work with WWX.

Let's start with the biggie: WWX gives JC his core. It is an incredible act of love to be sure. Functionally it saves JC's life (he's not going to last long in that state) along with preserving the existence of the Jiang Clan itself. I don't have a problem with WWX making a unilateral decision here, because he knows JC won't agree otherwise and the stakes could not be higher. It also makes sense that the Grandmaster of Impulsive Cultivation conceals the entire thing from JC. He knows the effect the truth will have on JC, and he's just trying to get them through the current crisis and worry about the consequences later. So I think his choices are understandable in a desperate situation where there are no good options.

To be honest, what bothers me is WWX's subsequent dumbassery. My god, man, what is the point of making a monumental sacrifice for someone and then proceeding to fuck shit up for him on a regular basis afterwards?

WWX's behaviour is catastrophic for the Jiang. I understand that he's in his emo goth era and I don't expect him to make perfect decisions at all times, but the way he treads on JC's toes makes my teeth hurt. Quite probably WWX himself was never going to end up in a good place, since his demonic cultivation made him too much of a threat for the Jin (or society at large) to leave him in peace. But that's not particularly relevant to the way he undermines JC. On more than one occasion, JC is doing his best to navigate a delicate political situation and WWX clomps in with his size 13s and makes everything worse for everyone. This, as much as popular sentiment turning against WWX, is a huge driver in why they have to fake their falling out and sever ties publicly.

Meanwhile, JC makes an equivalent sacrifice for WWX—he lets himself be captured, even though it results in the loss of his core and, as far as he knows at the time, the functional extinction of his clan. This is revealed right at the end of MDZS, encouraging the reader to look back at the novel and recontextualise JC's actions throughout. JC put WWX above his own life and the continued existence of his clan. There can be no question that he made as enormous a sacrifice for WWX as WWX made for him. Their mutual ignorance of this fact for so many years is the heart of their tragedy.

But crucially, there remains a difference between WWX and JC. Because JC doesn't only come through for WWX when the stakes are high. Right up until the death of JYL, JC is the one trying to balance his responsibility to his clan with his desire to protect WWX. For a start, they fake the cutting of ties between WWX and the Jiang, when it arguably would be much less risky for JC to cut ties in actuality. JC is also the one taking further risks by allowing WWX to see JYL in her wedding clothes. He even suggests WWX gets to pick her child's courtesy name. These things show a pattern of consideration that WWX simply does not match.

Let's not forget, JC does a decent job as clan leader. He's very young, and unlike NMJ or LXC, he has to build his clan again from literally nothing. Disciples need to be recruited and trained from scratch. Lotus Pier needs to be rebuilt—without Jin gold. He's doing what needs to be done to ensure the Jiang Clan continues to exist, yet still attempting to balance that with his loyalty to WWX even as WWX becomes more and more of a liability. Yes, WWX is being affected by the resentful energy he's cultivating, but his arrogance has been present from the start. It's not that the resentful energy is creating new traits in him, but that existing traits are being exaggerated.

WWX does a lot of very admirable and brave things and he is pretty much always trying to do right by the people he cares about i.e. the Jiang and the Wenmants. The trouble is that he's fundamentally not capable of recognising the damage he's also doing. His altercation with JZX over the soup is one thing—though JC (with JGS) has to pull him off JZX and it makes a bad situation worse, it's an understandable impulse reaction to seeing his beloved shijie being mistreated. But despite the negative consequences of his impulsivity, he never learns to stop and gather more information before reacting (unlike JZX!). He continues to undermine JC by letting the whole world see that he doesn't respect his authority. This really is where I as a reader get stuck: what use is the grand gesture of the core swap when the more everyday consideration is so totally lacking?

I also think it's interesting that in the temple JGY points out to JC that if he'd stuck by WWX, no one could have done anything about it and things might have turned out quite differently. I don't think JGY is being truthful here; or at the very least, if he is being truthful then I don't agree with his assessment. It's a remark intended to goad JC and prod him where he's most sensitive, and it's successful in that regard. I'd be willing to bet that deep down JC does fear that if he'd backed up WWX then everything might have been all right and JZX and JYL would still be alive.

But it's simply not true. WWX's affiliation with the Jiang is catastrophic for them. He openly flouts JC's authority—and of course his demonic cultivation taints the Jiang by association, particularly in light of the Jin smear campaign. WWX's intervention to rescue the Wenmants is the last excuse JGS needs to do what he planned from the beginning: put a target on WWX's back. This isn't a post about whether or not WWX's actions to protect the Wenmants are moral; it's merely an observation that they put JC and the Jiang at risk by association, especially when WWX also deliberately insults the Jin in a public forum. The Jin don't exactly need to work hard to sabotage WWX's reputation: they're merely handing him the rope and he's merrily tying the noose. On a pragmatic level, an actual estrangement rather than a fake one would have been the more better option for JC if his sole priority was the wellbeing of his clan and not also his love for WWX.

On the other hand, if WWX had continued with his demonic cultivation but respected the authority of his clan leader and not undermined him in public, JC might have been more able to effectively protect him. I'm not entirely convinced by that argument, but I certainly find it more plausible than the idea that JC backing WWX would have prevented the consequences of the determined Jin smear campaign.

Essentially, my point is that I'm not splitting hairs about the degree to which JC and WWX love each other. Their love for each other is not in question. Nor is it in question that they have made equally huge sacrifices for each other. But there's the rub. What about the small sacrifices? Who is making those? More often than not, it's JC. JC has the weight of his clan's survival on his shoulders and he still does his best to remain privately loyal to WWX despite the risk it poses to his own position. He only turns on WWX when WWX's actions result in the death of JZX and JYL—JYL being arguably the only person they both love even more than they love each other. (Sorry, LWJ. You only make the leaderboard in Life 2.) Meanwhile, WWX is willing to give up his core for JC but not willing to make the effort to present a united front against political foes who are actively trying to destroy them. He loves JC, but I see no evidence that he respects him.

[robininthelabyrinth]

A continuation of NHS invites WWX to JYL's wedding, and what happened there? Perhaps about how the estemed Hanguang Jun ended up running off and eloping with the Nie sect heir's intended?

continuation of that short fic, now it’s own fic on ao3

Plus One - Chapter 2

“So,” Nie Huaisang said, sidling up to his brother and his two sworn brothers now that they’d finally gotten to the party part of the wedding and they could all huddle up in a corner to be anti-social together.

Or, well, for Nie Mingjue and Lan Xichen to be anti-social and for Jin Guangyao to be forcefully restrained from attempting to perform hosting duties, which he incessantly tried to do - it was like he had no idea what servants were for. Which Nie Huaisang supposed was understandable, given everything, but the way Jin Guangshan encouraged him to do it certainly wasn’t.

“So,” Nie Mingjue said, his voice only mildly ominous in a way that suggested, to Nie Huaisang at least, that he was still finding this whole thing incredibly funny.

Accordingly, Nie Huaisang ignored him. “How much do you think I can milk being horribly dumped?” he asked. “Because I think I’m about to be horribly dumped.”

“By your new ‘intended’?” Lan Xichen said, looking amused. “Really, Huaisang, I don’t know what you were thinking by bringing him.”

“Uh, that he deserves to attend his shijie’s wedding? Obviously?”

“But to bring him to Lanling…”

“He’s my guest,” Nie Huaisang said haughtily, bringing out his fan and doing his best ‘rich young master who is better than this and is most certainly above your petty questions’ Jin sect impression. “You aren’t suggesting that the Jin sect would take back an invitation they freely issued, would they? Or breach the rules of hospitality?”

“Huaisang, Xichen didn’t mean it that way and you know it,” his brother said, sounding annoyed, but in his relaxed run-of-the-mill ‘I hate parties’ type of annoyance, rather than specifically about his behavior. “Obviously the Jin sect won’t do anything about it. Regardless of any other considerations, anything they did would be refusing to show our Nie sect face, and then I’d have to make an issue of it.”

He sounded wistful. Probably thinking about how he could use it as an excuse to storm out and go home early.

“We’re only worried about you, Huaisang,” Jin Guangyao murmured, looking remarkably calm for someone who was definitely (if unobtrusively) being blocked from leaving by two very tall men with excessive mother hen tendencies. “You’re all grown up now, not a child – you need to think about the political implications your actions might have. Aren’t you concerned about your brother’s reaction?”

Huaisang was about to explain that he’d gotten his brother’s permission, but then he remembered that they were in Lanling, full of spies, so he decided to tell Jin Guangyao about that later.

“It’s not my problem that Sect Leader Nie has to think about politics at what should be a happy family event,” he said instead, nose in the air, and Lan Xichen frowned even as Nie Mingjue sighed, probably at Nie Huaisang’s total lack of caring about even the basic obligations of etiquette. Or possibly his reference to their little inside joke, but these were his sworn brothers, so they’d have to figure out sooner or later that Sect Leader Nie and Nie Mingjue weren’t always the same. “Besides, that isn’t what I asked. I asked about how long I can milk my terrible heartbreaking break up.”

“I thought you were getting dumped?” his brother asked, passing him a jar of wine. A good brother, even if he was mocking him.

“Getting dumped leads to a break-up,” Nie Huaisang insisted. “Wei-xiong is a thankless white-eyed wolf who was just using me with absolutely no consideration of my tender feelings.”

“You have tender feelings?” his brother said. “Why wasn’t I informed of this?”

Nie Huaisang kicked him in the shin.

As usual, it had no impact whatsoever on his brother and only hurt his own toes, but it was the principle of the thing.

“Huaisang,” Lan Xichen said, his voice oddly gentle, even softer than normal. “Did you – really – for Wei Wuxian –”

Nie Huaisang, who’d been taking a drink of wine, nearly choked. “Er-ge,” he said, mildly horrified. “Please. Wei-xiong is a very handsome gentleman, fearless and dashing, with all the skills one might ask for in a son-in-law –”

“Brother-in-law,” his brother muttered, as if he hadn’t been Nie Huaisang’s de facto father figure for years.

“– and, yes, I suppose we have similar tastes in drinking, carousing, and pornography –”

“Of course you do,” Jin Guangyao said, looking up at the ceiling as if it would hide how his lips were twitching.

“– but let us not forget: he lives in a trash heap. With Wen sect. I have standards!”

“I thought he was marrying in?” Lan Xichen asked, smiling again now that he had confirmed that there was no actual heart-breaking occurring in the vicinity. “He’d live in the Unclean Realm that way, wouldn’t he?”

“He would not,” Nie Mingjue put in. “I don’t care if they’re all enlightened saints that do nothing but charity all day, no one surnamed Wen is living in my home.”

“You see what I’m up against?” Nie Huaisang said, holding out his hands in appeal to his brother’s sworn brothers. “My da-ge doesn’t understand, he’s only good for swinging a saber! How cruel and heartless must a man be to stand in the way of true love?”

Lan Xichen covered his smile with his sleeve. Jin Guangyao pressed his lips together in such a way that made his cheeks especially round and quivering with suppressed laughter, like a mouse stuffing its face to bulging with rice.

“Er-ge, you wouldn’t be nearly this cruel if it were you, would you?” Nie Huaisang asked, reaching out and tugging said sleeve. “You’d be kind and generous about it – I bet you’d find them a nice little place to live, maybe next to those foothills you’re always saying you want someone to use but that you’re not willing to sell…”

“Were you planning on moving in with er-ge after your marriage, then?” Jin Guangyao asked. He looked much more amused and relaxed now – maybe he’d been stressing over this being some sort of scheme and was feeling much better now that he realized it was actually just Nie Huaisang’s nonsense. His paranoia had always been deeply endearing. “I don’t think your brother will like that.”

“Not me,” Nie Huaisang said, rolling his eyes at him. “But if it was Lan Zhan sweeping him away, er-ge would definitely support him. Right, er-ge?”

“I always support my brother,” Lan Xichen said with a smile.

“Good,” Nie Huaisang said, taking another swallow of wine. “Because he and Wei Wuxian just had a very intense conversation in a secluded corner that ended with them kissing and running off together, so it’s about to become your problem.”

Nie Mingjue choked, Jin Guangyao’s jaw dropped, and Lan Xichen’s eyes got really big.

“Not joking,” Nie Huaisang clarified cheerfully. “Totally serious.”

“Excuse me,” Lan Xichen said, getting up very quickly. “I need to – go see –”

He didn’t even bother finishing the sentence before rushing off.

“Go with him,” Nie Mingjue said to Jin Guangyao, who blinked owlishly at him. “It’s going to be a shitshow, isn’t it? Politically, I mean.”

“Uh,” Jin Guangyao said.

“Really, da-ge,” Nie Huaisang said. “The notorious ostracized-by-the-cultivation-world demonic cultivator Wei Wuxian, the Yiling Patriarch, is abruptly reintroduced to society as my intended bride, only to be stolen away by the Lan sect’s Second Jade, the second most desirable bachelor in the cultivation world, in the middle of a wedding party thrown by Lanling Jin? I have no idea why you think this would so much as raise an eyebrow.”

“That’s a lot of words to say ‘shitshow’, which is why I didn’t,” Nie Mingjue said. “Meng Yao – Jin Guangyao – oh, fuck it, A-Yao, someone is going to need to keep their head about them and think about the political implications long enough to keep Xichen from getting himself into serious trouble, and you’re better at it than I am. Go help him. I’ll cover for you two here.”

Jin Guangyao still looked torn.

“Don’t listen to da-ge, he’s worrying too much,” Nie Huaisang volunteered his own opinion. “How much trouble can the Lan sect really get into over a matter of love?”

“I’m going at once,” Jin Guangyao said, and ran after Lan Xichen.

A moment later, Nie Huaisang handed the jar of wine back to his brother.

“Well done,” he said, voice much more neutral than it had been a moment before. “Assuming your goal was to deprive Sect Leader Jin of san-ge’s assistance while we define the situation to make it come out the way we want.”

“Couldn’t have done it without your timely assist,” Nie Mingjue said, pinching the bridge of his nose. He did so hate politics, and he hated being good at it even more. Truly there was nothing better, in Nie Huaisang’s opinion, than forcing his brother to relent and give in to the sneaky bastard half of his heritage. “Anyway, Sect Leader Jin is drunk and his heir is the groom, and thus occupied. It’s only reasonable that I, as the person with the next highest status, take charge of dispersing the news.”

“And by ‘dispersing the news’ you mean rehabilitate Wei-xiong’s reputation, get him reinstated in the Jiang sect, and arrange an appropriate marriage between him and Lan Zhan before anyone can complain about an inappropriate elopement, of course.”

“It’s called being efficient, Huaisang,” Nie Mingjue said.

“It’s called creating a countervailing alliance to the Jiang-Jin sect connection, getting both the Jiang sect and the Yiling Patriarch to owe our sect a favor – not to mention the Lan sect, too! – and conveniently also undercutting Sect Leader Jin’s authority just at the moment he’s trying to install himself as the new ruler of the cultivation world.”

“Don’t be ridiculous, Huaisang,” Nie Mingjue said, finishing off the jar and putting it down. “I’m far too stupid to be considering any of that. Only good for swinging a saber, remember?”

Nie Huaisang sniggered.

“Yes, I remember,” he said. “You won a whole war against a much stronger, more numerous, and more unified force on Baxia’s strength alone, no brains required. How can I help? You want me crying or excited?”

“Whatever you think is best, Huaisang.” His brother solidified his scowling angry face, just the sort of thing a dumb brute might wear when dealing with politics that he was far too ignorant to understand. “Let’s go right some injustices, shall we?”

[admirableadmiranda]

The novel ending reeks of codependency. In CQL, we see that WWX needs time and space to process everything that’s happened to him! He needs an opportunity to just live and experience the world and become reacquainted with, after being gone for over decade. Once the mystery is resolved, he is vulnerable and without a strong sense of who he even is and how he fits into the world now. He has LWJ to go back to, but he can’t build his entire sense of identity around LWJ, and that relationship can’t be his only source of happiness and fulfillment. And he genuinely seems to like exploring and having new experiences and meeting new people! It’s a good way for him to get a sense of who he is now. It’s true that WWX has a lot of insecurity and neurosis re: feeling deserving of care and affection, and I’m not claiming that he’s completely resolved those issues (or any of his issues). But I think there’s a lot more trust between him and LWJ, and that he’s considerably more secure in that relationship, by the end of the show. Post-resurrection there are a lot of scenes where he’s a lot more mature in his interactions with LWJ, a lot more capable of grasping LWJ’s boundaries, and a lot better at tempering his teasing with sincerity. So I don’t take his self-discovery journey as the same sort of destructive impulse towards isolation that he displays after his stint in the Burial Mounds. I think it’s a demonstration, rather, of the trust he’s built in LWJ, and in the fact that he doesn’t need to constantly be demanding attention for LWJ to still wait for him and be there for him when he’s ready to come back. And it’s being able to clearly communicate his needs and intentions in a given moment, rather than just shutting the other person out. from LWJ’s perspective - it’s so important that he’s able to let WWX go! LWJ is also incredibly neurotic and also feels that he’s not deserving of love. And he grows up without any models of what healthy relationships look like - his parents’ relationship is the only framework he has, as evidenced by him taking inspiration from that in wanting to hide WWX at Cloud Recesses. But he quickly realizes that that’s not what he wants, and that he doesn’t want to force WWX to do anything. When WWX comes back to life, he takes care of him and gives him gifts not because he’s expecting anything in return, but because he loves him and wants to make him happy and show him kindness when so few people have. But it’s important, I think, for him to be able to spend time apart from WWX, to give him the space he needs, without seeing that as just another sacrifice that he’s making. When he sees WWX off on his self-discovery journey, he’s in a place where he can start to trust that WWX will come back, and that he has massive significance for WWX even when WWX doesn’t have to depend on him for emotional and material support.   Being able to maintain distance from each other, and maintain their own separate identities and relationship, with each one still having confidence in the strong foundation they’ve built together, is very important.

Not only is it too long didn’t read, it’s too long most of your message doesn’t show up in the reply.

Anon, Wei Wuxian does not need to discover himself or reconnect with the world in order to be happy before he can do anything. He knows exactly what he wants, a husband.

Also, codependent? Really? Have you ever met a married couple? I’m a married woman and I can attest that they are fine. They have a honeymoon that’s just the two of them, that’s completely normal. They go out and do things together, but there’s also times when it’s just one of them going out.

Like CQL’s sad, censored ending all you like, where Wei Wuxian wanders off because Lan Wangji decides to take up politics over being with him, but I’m gonna take my novel ending and happy boys any day.

[xiyao-feels]

i've seen takes that jgy started playing turmoil before the staircase, aka wwx comments that it would take 3months for turmoil to kill nmj (ch64) so obviously jgy started playing it a long time ago, causing all of nmj's anger, all of that was his fault.

but also the novel says that jgy made a decision on the stairs or gave something up then a few days later played for nmj (ch 49) and like...idk what that could be except for killing nmj, is there something else this could be?

is wwx right? is mxtx bad at timelines? is nmj kick 3 months in the past, what is the time between 49 and 50 (when nmj dies in 2mo)

idk this whole thing is fuzzy and if you have any clarification or insight i'd like to hear it

-🦊

Fox anon! I'm glad to hear from you, and I hope you're doing well. I'm sorry I took so long to answer this—I was trying to be thorough, you all can judge whether I succeeded.

Now, I think the first thing to note here is that WWX actually and explicitly observes the Song of Clarity working when JGY is playing for NMJ before the stairs (ch 49):

Since then, Jin GuangYao would travel from Lanling to Qinghe every few days, playing Sound of Lucidity to help quell Nie MingJue rage. He tried his hardest, without speaking even a single word of complaint. Sound of Lucidity was indeed effective. Wei WuXian could clearly feel that the hostile energy within Nie MingJue was being suppressed. And, when playing the guqin, the way that the two conversed and got along even had a hint of the peace they had before they fell out. He began to think that maybe the so-called busy reestablishing the Cloud Recesses was just an excuse. Perhaps Lan XiChen simply wanted to give Nie MingJue and Jin GuangYao a chance to ease their tension.

(emphasis mine)

I think this is pretty conclusive. WWX's observations on the spot override his conclusions after a) being extensively soaked in NMJ's anger/resentment (ch 48-50) b) the entire drama afterwards at Jinlintai including being stabbed through by Jin Ling (ch 50) and c) resting and recovering for four days (ch 63).

Moreover, let's look at what WWX actually says in chapter 63:

Wei WuXian, “Jin GuangYao’s spiritual energy isn’t high. He wouldn’t have been able to take someone’s life with just seven notes. And killing him this way would’ve been too obvious. He definitely wouldn’t have chosen a song so powerful. But, if he could use the reason of playing the Song of Clarity for ChiFeng-Zun to calm his temper and continued to play it for three months, would the song be able to act as a slow poison and catalyse ChiFeng-Zun’s outburst?”

He's asking LXC questions about Turmoil, because it's new to him and he doesn't understand everything about it. I think it's pretty clear here that he's starting from how long he saw JGY play for NMJ, and asking if that would be long enough, rather than definitively stating that it would have to take three months; nor is there anything in LXC's response ("… Yes") that suggests three months is any kind of necessary minimum.

So those are the facts at hand. And imho if you look at the text in the later Empathy, there's a great deal of supporting evidence as well. There's the moment you mention, where JGY seems to be making a decision:

Nie MingJue, “Then why don’t you sacrifice yourself? Are you any nobler than them? Are you any different from them?”

Jin GuangYao stared at him. A moment later, as though he had finally either decided on something or given up on something, he replied calmly, “Yes.”

He looked up. In his expression were some of pride, some of calmness, and some of a faint insanity, “I and they, of course we are different!”

I agree with you, he's deciding to give up on NMJ—and if it's something else, what is it? If JGY isn't giving up on getting through to NMJ here, what function does this line serve in the text?

And I think it's worth noting here, as I've noted before—when JGY is talking about how different his and NMJ's positions are, he says "Your background is noble and your cultivation is high"; and the "Your background is noble" part is 你出身高贵, with the 高贵 being the "noble" part. When NMJ is asking him "Are you any nobler than them? Are you any different from them?" the "Are you any nobler than them?" is 你比他们高贵吗—so the "noble" part is, again, the same word, 高贵.  Given that JGY has just spent a great deal of breath explaining that he is different from NMJ precisely because of his less-noble background, this is very much a pair of questions that might quite justifiably make JGY feel like NMJ is just completely not understanding anything he is saying here at all. 

Besides that moment, there is the way he approaches or interacts with NMJ, which is quite noticeably different after the stairs. If you look at the beginning of the stairs, he's trying to convince NMJ to let the XY thing go: he says that if XY is locked up for life and can't hurt people, this isn't too different from him being executed, and then when NMJ does not accept this, points out that it's JGY's father's command and he cannot simply go against it as NMJ wishes. Once JGY loses his temper, he is still presenting arguments for his position—which granted is now approximately "you're being a hypocrite and you don't understand things", but he is still arguing for it—that is, he is still trying to reach NMJ; he is acting as though on some level he believes he can get through to him. 

But in attempting to convince NMJ about XY, he is not acting like someone who expects that NMJ is right about to die; because if he were expecting that, he could simply say whatever he likes to put NMJ off, knowing that he won't actually have to pay up. Similarly, in attempting to get through to NMJ via argument, however angrily, he is not treating NMJ as purely an object to be manipulated; NMJ's beliefs matter to JGY separately (I am not saying /only/ separately) from what those beliefs lead NMJ to do. To put it another way: he cares about what NMJ thinks. This too is something that prevents JGY from simply telling NMJ whatever he wishes to hear, and this, too, is lost at the stairs.

For after the stairs, telling NMJ what he wants to hear, and just telling NMJ something that will put him off because he knows or hopes he won't have to pay up, are exactly what JGY does. When he shows up at the Unclean Realm a few days later, he tells NMJ he's here to acknowledge his mistakes and that he's realized NMJ is "doing this" for him; he promises to bring NMJ XY's head in two months, and tells NMJ he can do whatever he likes with him if JGY does not. This is a significant change in behaviour from before the stairs, and in consideration with all the other evidence it seems to me that this is because, post-stairs, he no longer values what NMJ thinks of him, and he is now gambling on his killing NMJ before NMJ kills him.

The only area where he does push back now is NMJ's treatment of NHS, I suspect because he worries about what NMJ might do or continue to do to NHS in his remaining two months of life.

So: I really do think the evidence is pretty clear that JGY starts with Turmoil after the stairs, in that it is directly signalled by the text and in that all the evidence around it backs this up.

That said, I have seen other objections raised by various anti-JGY folk, and while some of them have more merit than others I think it's worth taking the time to go over them.

-JGY couldn't possibly have prepared the Turmoil music in the few days between the stairs and him starting to play for NMJ after.

Yes, I agree; he must have had it prepared earlier. But that only means that he had it prepared, not that he was using it, and while there are certainly people who will only prepare a weapon if they are sure they will use it, I really don't think JGY is among them. He might also have prepared it as evidence for his father that he was working on solving the problem.

-WWX didn't notice a difference between the music JGY was playing before the stairs and the music he was playing after; therefore, it must be the same music.

Honestly, I think that WWX just didn't notice. It's explicitly described as very subtle, and indeed he can't tell the difference between the altered passage and the rest of the song (ch 63):  

Wei WuXian withdrew the flute from his lips, “It really is this section? But I don’t find this section different at all.”

And he again observes how similar they are in chapter 64:  

And he combined them so well. They sound as though there were the same. His musical talent is indeed excellent.

His repeated observation that they sound just the same suggests that he could very well have failed to notice, I think, and indeed he would have heard the altered version more often.

There is also another explanation, entirely compatible with JGY only using Turmoil after the stairs. WWX says of JGY playing Turmoil that he must have "used little spiritual power" during the Clarity sections, and "only exerted power" during the Turmoil section (ch 64). So if we think WWX would definitely have noticed the difference, there is an explanation for how he nevertheless very clearly observed NMJ's hostile energy suppressed by the music; JGY might have been using his power during the (much longer) Clarity part, and only used a very little during Turmoil. Personally, I think that it fits better with the overall emotional arc if JGY didn't change the music he was playing until after the stairs; but I accept this isn't ruled out as a possibility.

I feel obliged to note that at one point, after I was challenged on the issue of JGY changing the music after the stairs and pointed out WWX noticing NMJ's hostile energy being suppressed, as above, I was offered as an explanation for the passage that JGY couldn't possibly have abruptly switched to Turmoil right away when he started playing for NMJ, because NMJ would have noticed that he was suddenly feeling worse; and that therefore WWX clearly feeling NMJ's hostile energy being suppressed was not really evidence that JGY was playing Clarity and not Turmoil before the stairs. But I disagree with this, on two counts.

First, it is not clear to me that NMJ would in fact notice. He does not seem to be very self-aware about the effects of the sabre curse. He explicitly denies it at the stairs, for example: "I am not [in turmoil]. I know what I'm doing" (ch 49). After he burns NHS' things, when JGY asks him if he's told NHS about the sabre curse yet, NMJ asks "Why would I tell him so soon?" even though at this point he is quite clearly being affected (ch 50). And when he kicks open the door to kill JGY in chapter 50, he seems not to think about the curse at all. Of course this last is moments before he qi deviates and dies and is therefore perhaps not representative, but it fits with the general pattern; I don't believe we ever see him consider whether his anger might be because of the sabre curse, and indeed he is hardly given to questioning the righteousness of his anger in general.

Secondly, and more abstractly...WWX observing the hostile energy being suppressed—"clearly feel[ing]" it being suppressed (ch 49)—may not be /literally/ incompatible with the idea that JGY changed music after the stairs. But a story isn't just a collection of facts, and I think by far the most natural interpretation of this, in context, is that JGY is playing Clarity and not Turmoil. Which is not of course to say you can't have a resistant reading here, but I think it's generally good practice to acknowledge when your readings are resistant readings, and especially if you have a resistant reading not to say it is the only possible reading of the facts.

-JGY has no motive for playing for NMJ other than wanting him dead.

If we assume rather that he doesn't want him dead, he pretty clearly has a motive to help keep NMJ's temper under control, both on a personal level (so NMJ doesn't attack or embarrass him) and on a political level (so NMJ doesn't lose it and embarrass JGS). I would also like to note that although it was some time ago, and it seems likely that even before the stairs JGY's feelings about NMJ are not as positive as once they were, we have seen JGY go to quite heroic lengths to save NMJ's life before, when he saves him from Wen Ruohan by misdirection and assassination then drag/carries his unconscious body rather than leave him there and make good his own escape.

-The stairs and the fan burning both happen before JGY starts playing for NMJ after the stairs; NMJ wouldn't do either of those things in his right mind…

I agree; the Nie have to deal with the sabre curse. I think it's worth pointing out, too, that aside from Clarity we don't see NMJ take any measures to try to deal with the curse, either directly in addressing the curse itself, or by preventing himself from acting excessively under the influence of the curse; it shouldn't be surprising, then, that the curse can cause such drastic incidents.

-…and the sabre curse wouldn't be strong enough.

This one really confuses me as an objection, I'm going to be honest. We can be pretty sure NMJ would have qi deviated eventually, Turmoil or no. NHS says this in chapter 26:

"The sabers of our past sect leaders were all heavy with hostile energy and killing intent. Almost every single sect leader met a sudden death from a qi deviation explosion. Their irritable tempers also had a lot to do with this."

(As a side note: the missing paragraph in the ER translation right after this has I think occasionally led people to the conclusion that it is the qi deviation and such that WWX suggests is similar to demonic cultivation, as opposed to the sabres turning murderous after the deaths of their owners—you can see the Taming Wangxian and the MDZS Translation versions for the full context of the exchange.)

So NMJ was almost sure to qi deviate eventually! Moreover, he would have greatly strengthened the sabre spirit through his extensive use of Baxia during Sunshot, and after the war he continues to pursue cultivating with the sabre, without, I think, any sign of moderation. And it seems likely that he is already showing recognizable symptoms of the curse by the time JGY starts playing for him alone, as Clarity seems intended to slow the progression of the curse and also like something relatively newly introduced—they don't seem to have been doing this since Sunshot just in case, or anything. So how then could we be sure that the sabre curse on its own would be insufficient?

-NMJ wasn't at all violent before JGY started playing for him

This is simply not true. Unfortunately we don't see much of him outside of Empathy, but looking exclusively at things that happen before JGY starts playing for him:

His reputation in Sunshot is about his destroying the Wen, contrasted with LXC's which is about saving people (ch 48):

During the Sunshot Campaign, stories of praise were told about all three of the Venerated Triad. The ones of ChiFeng-Zun were about how he swept over all obstacles, leaving not even a trace of the Wen-dogs after he finished. ZeWu-Jun—Lan XiChen—however, was different from him. After the situation of the Gusu area had settled down, Lan QiRen was able to defend it with great tenacity. Thus, Lan XiChen often travelled to aid others, saving lives from danger. In all of the Sunshot Campaign, he had countless times recovered lost territory and assisted narrow escapes. This was why people were ecstatic whenever they heard his name, as though they gained a ray of hope, a powerful trump card.

The description of his reaction to seeing MY kill the Jin captain pretty strongly suggests his initial reaction was to attack MY on the spot (ch 48):

Nie MingJue saw all of the scene. Without saying a word, he unsheathed his saber by an inch. A sharp ring pierced through the air.

Hearing the familiar sound of unsheathing, Meng Yao immediately trembled. He spun around, his soul almost evaporating, “… Sect Leader Nie?”

Nie MingJue pulled all of his saber out of its sheath. The body of the sword glared brightly, yet the blade itself vaguely glinted in the red shade of blood. Wei WuXian could feel the billowing anger from him, along with emotions of disappointment and hatred.

Meng Yao knew Nie MingJue’s character more than anyone else. He dropped the sword with a clang, “Sect Leader Nie, Sect Leader Nie! Please wait, please wait! I can explain!”

Even after he's listening, he ends up grabbing MY by the collar and lifting him up (ch 48). 

When he's explaining what happened with MY to LXC, he announces his intention to kill MY if he ever sees him again (ch 48), and after MY kills WRH, saving NMJ's life in doing so, and is carrying him out afterwards, he grabs his sabre from MY's hand and tries to kill MY again (ch 49). He only stops when LXC physically blocks him, and changes his mind after LXC explains that MY was in fact a spy, and I think it's worth noting that WWX believes that MY would probably have died under NMJ's attacks before LXC arrived if NMJ hadn't been heavily injured (ch 49). We're also told the brotherhood oath 3zun swear is unusually violent, in a way JGY suggests, and which LXC notably does not refute, was decided by NMJ (ch 50). Finally, while this summary of NMJ's interests is arguably from WWX's perspective, it is still notable that the only two things he's apparently interested in are "training his saberwork and killing Wen-dogs" (ch 49)—which is to say, the study of violence, and a particular and fatal application thereof. 

(Totally unrelated fun fact: I was looking at the entrance to the Phoenix Mountain Hunt for this too and apparently NMJ is seventh on the young cultivators list (ch 69). The more you know!)

I want to be very clear that I am not saying that all of NMJ's violence is unreasonable or not understandable. But that it can be reasonable and understandable does not mean that it is not violent; and it is certainly not the only reaction a person could have to the events he's reacting to. Contrast LXC, as someone rather on the other end of the spectrum.

-If NMJ were violent, JGY wouldn't risk his life killing him via Turmoil (and therefore NMJ must not be violent)

Even aside from the extensive textual evidence for NMJ's violence, I don't think this holds together. As shown above, I think it's quite clear that NMJ was in fact always a violent man, but there is absolutely no question that he's violent to JGY in his last months of life, and if you think JGY started playing Turmoil for NMJ before the stairs, then it's really extremely clear that JGY was willing to risk NMJ's violence in killing him! I think the clash between JGY's desire to live and the evident risk to his life from killing NMJ with Turmoil actually supports the position I am arguing here. Assuming we are agreed that JGY is attached to his own life, and as it's clear that as NMJ approached his end he was a danger to JGY (regardless of how that end was induced!), why was JGY playing him Turmoil?

I think the stairs make it clear to JGY that his life is not safe while NMJ is still alive. Using Turmoil, therefore, becomes a gamble he is willing to take, though still an enormously risky one: on the one hand, it appeases his father and enables him to promise NMJ he can do whatever he likes with JGY if he doesn't kill XY in two months (ch 50), a promise he obviously and understandably has no intention of keeping. But on the other hand, if NMJ doesn't die within the two months, he probably will simply kill JGY—and more than that, given his focus on JGY, he may kill JGY anyway, for some much more trivial reason. Indeed, this is exactly what almost happens just before NMJ's death, when he kicks open a door and attempts to kill JGY on the spot because JGY was complaining to LXC about NMJ's treatment of him; if LXC hadn't blocked NMJ's sabre, JGY would almost certainly have died (ch 50). But as risky as this gamble is, it is still a better bet than waiting around and hoping LXC always saves him when NMJ tries to kill him—especially taking into account the risk from his father should he do so.

-The stairs incident was good for JGY and bad for NMJ, which is evidence that JGY arranged it on purpose

...I have a lot of things to say about this position. None of them are very nice. However, as I am in fact trying to argue in good faith, I will attempt to address it as an argument.

I think this comes from a confusion of the fandom reaction to the stairs with the in-universe reaction to it. To people now, yes, looking at this makes NMJ look bad, and inspires sympathy for JGY. In-universe, however—when NMJ publically assaults JGY and tries to kill him, when he calls him Meng Yao, when he shouts he's the son of a prostitute, it's not /NMJ/ who looks bad. NMJ of course is righteous in his anger; really he's only putting that boy in his place, don't you think? I knew Chifeng-zun didn't really accept him. Etcetera. It /weakens/ JGY's position, because the cultivation world does not have the same beliefs and priorities and value judgements that we do!

Certainly if he'd actually managed to kill JGY he would suddenly have found that he had killed JGS's beloved son, the only remaining son of the Jin, a war hero, his own sworn brother who had saved NMJ's life etc etc etc. But only because then there would have been political advantage in it for JGS, and quite substantial political advantage too, and he wouldn't have to deal with JGY being around anymore. As it stands, all NMJ's actions at the stairs do for JGY is tell the world that he is vulnerable and weak and disgusting. The only significant person in-world who would find JGY more sympathetic after this incident is LXC, and frankly a) he is already deeply in sympathy with JGY and b) we don't see JGY playing it up—after LXC's appearance at the stairs rather he minimizes and soothes things, and even when we overhear his complaints to LXC around two months later he is talking about what NMJ thinks of him, and not the physical danger NMJ poses.

I will also observe that while JGY does end up losing his temper, he starts off soothing even through NMJ's first attempted assault, and only loses it after NMJ calls him Meng Yao and says "your whole thing stopped working on me since a long time ago" in front of everyone; this attempted conciliation seems an odd thing to do were he in fact trying to manipulate NMJ into assaulting him, trying to kill him, embarrassing him and weakening his position in public. You could argue that NMJ would be more angered by JGY's attempts to be soothing than he would by JGY's directness, and thus the soothing could be read as provocative, but this simply isn't backed up by the text; while NMJ was obviously already angry before JGY lost his temper, he nevertheless escalates significantly after JGY talks back.

Moreover...I think what NMJ actually does and tries to do at the stairs, in terms of violence, is sometimes not fully grasped.

The first thing he does once they're properly outside is try to hit JGY, though fortunately JGY manages to dodge. When NMJ kicks him down the stairs, even aside from calling JGY the son of a prostitute, JGY ends up rolling down more than fifty steps and acquiring a head wound—/another/ head wound, because he already had one, apparently from the physical abuse he receives at Jinlintai from Madam Jin. And finally, NMJ actually /unsheathes his sabre/ and, after LXC approaches, announces his intention to kill JGY:

Lan XiChen, “Brother, sheath your saber first—your mind is in turmoil!”

Nie MingJue, “I am not. I know what I’m doing. He’s beyond hope. If these keeps on going, he’ll do the world harm for sure. The earlier he’s killed, the earlier we can relax!”

(ch 49)

When I say that NMJ almost killed JGY at the stairs, I am not just talking about kicking him down the stairs, although that certainly could have killed JGY. I am talking about drawing his sabre on JGY with the intention of killing him. JGY would very likely have died if LXC hadn't thought they were taking too long and come to see. 

JGY can certainly take enormous risks when it's necessary—but for a risk like this he would have to be gaining something extremely significant, and I remain unconvinced he was gaining anything at all, let alone anything worth the cost.

-NMJ's actions at the stairs and his burning NHS' things are completely unrelated to any of his previous actions and motivations.

In fact, although they're certainly both significant escalations, I think that in both cases NMJ's motivations and actions draw extensively from preceding characterization.

Consider the stairs. The direct classism is certainly new, but there are several other elements that have already been established as part of NMJ's characterization: the tendency to violence, the investment in JGY behaving correctly even while ignoring incorrect behaviour around him, the approach to justice both in his particular and frequently-retributive idea of it and in his commitment to that idea, and a failure to understand the realities of JGY's position.

The violence I discussed above, and the failure to understand JGY's position has I think been discussed sufficiently elsewhere and besides would be a full post in its own right. As to NMJ's approach to justice, you can see both idea and commitment to it in his anger to the men speaking badly of MY (ch 48) and his appreciation and promotion of MY for his accomplishments (ch 48); his initial intention to kill MY after he catches him killing the Jin captain (ch 48), his subsequent insistence that MY turn himself in to the Jin (ch 48) and his intention to kill MY for his betrayal after MY tricks him and escapes (ch 48); his initial insistence that MY should pay for killing the Nie cultivators, even as he acknowledges that MY saved his life and says he will kill himself after he kills MY (ch 49); and of course in his insistence that WQ and WN should pay for their complicity with WRH, even in the face of LXC and JC's defense of them (ch 73). And in describing LWJ as "absolutely [unable to] stand wrongdoings, possibly even more than Nie HuaiSang’s brother" (ch 30), WWX implies a great deal about the extent of NMJ's inability to stand wrongdoings. Of course, not all of these instances involve NMJ seeking violent retribution as justice, but a significant portion do—about half—and it is certainly a recurring theme. This approach to justice, I should add, is certainly involved in attempting to punish JGY for his misdeeds by killing him, but it is also part of why he is so upset in the first place: in NMJ's view of things, holding XY in prison instead of executing him for his crimes is failing to see justice properly done.

The investment in JGY behaving correctly, even while caring less about the behaviour of other people around him doing the same, is likewise an established character note. WWX concludes that NMJ's desire to guide JGY is one of the main reasons he agrees to the brotherhood (ch 49); we see his disapproval of JGY associating with XY, who already has something of a bad reputation, at the Flower Banquet (ch 49); at the conference after WWX rescues the Wen, when JGY backs up his father's lie about what WWX said about JC, NMJ seems to mark it more heavily than JGS' initial lie (ch 73). And then, of course, there is this, from the scene just before JGY starts playing for NMJ (ch 49):

In reality, it wasn’t that Jin GuangYao could calm Nie MingJue’s anger, but that since Jin GuangYao came, all of Nie MingJue’s anger would be directed at him alone, having no time to scold others. Thus, there was nothing wrong with saying that he was Nie HuaiSang’s knight in shining armor.

While NMJ's actions at the stairs are certainly not something he'd have done without the sabre curse, and again the direct classism is new, it nevertheless very much ties in to his preexisting characterization.

What about the burning of NHS' things? Again, many elements of the situation derive from NMJ's preexisting characterization; in this case, his tendency to release his anger on physical objects, his desire for NHS to be a strong cultivator and his angry displeasure with NHS' actual interests and capabilities, and his threatening to burn NHS' things.

Although prior to the burning of NHS' things it seems to be usually a momentary lashing out, NMJ definitely has a history of releasing his anger on physical objects. When he is annoyed at the men speaking badly about MY, he knocks down (or carves up? the English is unclear) a boulder at the front of the cave (ch 48); when he decides not to kill MY after LXC explains MY was their spy, he carves a boulder in half (ch 49); and he cracks the top of a table by bringing his palm down on it in the scene just before JGY starts playing for him (ch 49).

As to NMJ's desire for his brother to focus on and do well at cultivation, and his displeasure at NHS' actual areas of focus, this is perhaps one of his most consistent beats of characterization. We see it in our introduction to NHS at the Cloud Recesses lectures (ch 13); in NHS' plea for WWX's help with the test (ch 14); in LXC's message to NHS from NMJ and NHS' reason for staying in CR instead of going to Caiyi Town (ch 16); in WWX's reminiscences about NHS after discussing the "Man-Eating Ridge" with the "know-it-all of Qinghe" (ch 21); in NMJ and LXC's discussion when NMJ brings LXC NHS' sabre during in Sunshot (ch 48); and of course in the scene just before JGY starts playing for NMJ, both in his initial anger at NHS' preoccupation with the fans and uncertainty about his sabre's location, and in his dismissal of NHS as a "good-for-nothing" even after his temper had faded (ch 49).

The threatening to burn NHS' things, on the other hand, I believe we only see once, and really in the form of "instructing NHS to burn certain specific things of his"; but it is in the very scene before JGY starts playing for NMJ, as NMJ tells NHS to burn the fans he has just been going over tenderly before JGY interrupts (ch 49).

Indeed, I think that scene in general is very much worth a look here, for what it has and for what it doesn't. On the one hand, we do see NHS' fear of NMJ—he literally falls to his knees in terror, and stutters even after getting up! But he also seems fairly comfortable after the worst of NMJ's anger passes, and when NMJ sends him off he goes not to his room as instructed, but to the living room for the gifts JGY has brought him. Yet many of the elements of NMJ's later destruction of NHS' things are present here, and to my mind one of the most important things about the scene is its illustration of what prevents NMJ from carrying out the threats he made in his anger. It's not that he's convinced he's being unreasonable—indeed, he doesn't seem to consciously change his mind at all. Instead it is simply that repeated interruptions and NHS's ridiculous appearance as he greets JGY end up draining his temper, and with his temper drained he no longer pursues punishing NHS. But this has obvious implications for what might happen if NMJ's anger did not diminish, and I think it's quite clear how the behaviour NMJ exhibits in this scene could lead to NMJ burning NHS' things simply by giving him a more sustained burst of temper, even as it is not something NHS ever expected to happen, or something that would happen had NMJ's temper not been worsened by the sabre curse.

To conclude this section—while NMJ's actions at the stairs and in burning NHS' things are certainly unprecedented in themselves, they are nevertheless solidly rooted in NMJ's preexisting characterization, and it's easy to see how the sabre curse could lead to these extreme escalations. 

To conclude the post, I think the direct evidence is quite clear that JGY was playing Clarity before the stairs, and I think the indirect evidence also significantly supports it; nor am I convinced by various objections I have seen, for reasons I hope I have conveyed.