#i love supernatural but like the fandom is toxic and sometimes it seems like the characters werent being in character they were

[nyxocity]

Hi Nyx,

I just wanted to write a quick message letting you know how much I adore seeing you here. I've been a fan of Supernatural for a long time, but it's only been in the past couple of years that I've really read SPN fanfiction or engaged with the fandom in any conceivable way, and it's something I wish I'd done a lot sooner. There are so many amazing recommendations for fics on LiveJournal that just aren't around anymore, and unfortunately, the Wayback Machine only captures a very small fraction of them (although shoutout to people who were saving webpages back in 2008!!!). That's part of the reason why I'm so grateful to see you around. As lovely as it is watching new people build their own castles in the sandbox of a piece of media I love, there's something so incredibly warm and cozy and joyful about seeing a familiar username pop up on A03 or Tumblr. It's kind of like coming home, if you know what I mean :) Fandom (any fandom, really, but SPN is near the top of that list) can be exhausting and disheartening and toxic, just as much as it can be exhilarating and uplifting and transformative, and while I'm sure that as someone who's been in this space for a long time, you've most definitely encountered an unreasonable amount of the former, I'm ridiculously glad you're still writing. Because to me, you are a part of what makes the SPN fandom such a wonderful place to be in :)

Oh, and besides that, have I mentioned how much I love your writing? Because I love, love, LOVE it. All your fics are so diverse, I have no idea how you come up with the plot sometimes (especially the current one, UGH I'm dying just thinking about it!!). But no matter how complicated or simple the story, there's something so heartfelt and tender in each one, with beautiful angst and the kind of witty humour that makes me want to reach for a pen and take physical notes—not that I end up doing that because then the hot sexiness comes in and I lose all coherent thought ｡^‿^｡ Speaking of which, your characterization of Dean and Sam is EXACTLY how I see them, too (including Top Dean/Jensen which is absolutely delicious and I so wish there was more of that in the fandom) and ohmygod I don't know whether to love you or hate you for making me read RPF, the one thing I thought I'd never be okay with, but how can I resist when your stories are so enticing?????

(Oh, and speaking of RPF, I also love your characterization of Chad whenever you incorporate him in your stories. Every time I see him on screen I know it's going to be a good time :) It's kind of funny because I know virtually nothing about the actor in real life outside of his character from One Tree Hill, but from my limited knowledge it seems to me that a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away, all the authors in the CW RPF fandom got together and unanimously decided to make him a secretly smart but also complete buffoon-headed slut (in the best way) and I just have to know how that all started. Do you have any insight?)

Okay, this message is getting seriously long and cheesy, so I'm going to wrap it up now before I start proposing (although if you're willing to join me in the land of maple syrup and hockey, I will happily get down on one knee with a ring pop), but I just really wanted to let you know how much your work means me to me and how much of an inspiration it's been. I hope to one day be capable of writing fanfic as incredible as you can, and that the depth of my love for the things I enjoy will shine through my writing in the same way yours does.

Thank you so much for always putting a smile on my face (or making me cry because the angst is just that good) and I wish you all the best in life, the universe, and everything ♡♡♡

Love,

IllusionalOptics

Oh my gosh this is so much love! Wow, thank you so much for this, you made my whole week!

Honestly, I can't believe I'm still here in SPN fandom. Back in the LJ days, usually when a show ended the fandom died shortly thereafter. And a show that went on as long as SPN did means a lot of people moved on to other fandoms anyway. So I'm thrilled to still be here, playing in this sandbox. No way I would have called that back in 2007 when I first fell into this fandom. And yes, I've seen a lot of vitriol over the years, some of it slung directly at me, though not in a long time. I'm here to have fun and enjoy fandom and I refuse to let anyone drive me away from it. No one gets to take away my joy.

I'm so honored and humbled that people are still finding and reading my stories to this day--especially newer fans! Thank you so much for your lovely, amazing, wonderful comments about my writing! It's funny because I usually start out with a simple idea for the plot and then it just becomes so incredibly complex and complicated lol For Retroactive, my current story, I knew the plot was going to be exceptionally complicated, and I don't know why my brain does this to me. It's like, hey you've written so many things, this time, let's make it EXTRA DIFFICULT! This story is by far the hardest one I've done yet. And I feel like I say that every time I write a new one, unless it's just a romance piece.

So happy that my Sam and Dean match your interpretation. Everyone (not just writers) kinda has their way of seeing the characters. I try to to stay true as I can to canon characterization, but there's always my personal filter on it that I can't separate out. So it makes me happy that it matches yours!

Hahaha. Okay, so you should probably love me for making you read RPF because some of it is just ASTOUNDINGLY good as they tend to be original stories with the actors playing the parts. But real talk, RPF was a big NO for me in the beginning, too--hell, Wincest was gigantic NO for me in the beginning lol, but I tried to draw a line at RPF. And after I wrote Like Staring Into the Sun I was in a chat with two friends who basically decided I was going to write this RPF story about a teacher Jensen and a student Jared. I resisted for like an hour or more. And eventually they convinced me. But Then My Homework Was Never Quite Like This was my first RPF fic. And I was just finally like, welp, I'm already shipping Wincest so here we go I guess lol So yeah, I hear you. I live my life mostly line free these days though. SPN fandom will do that to you.

Oh my god I love writing Chad. He's a bit different in every story I do but he retains some core characteristics. Ooooh, I get to impart some fandom elder knowledge lol So, back when I wrote the original Homework verse story, there was this tendency in fics to make Chad kinda dumb and/or gross and/or a dick. Often, he was a douchebag. He was funny, but a lot of times not in a GOOD way, I guess? So when I wrote the first Homework story (2008), I decided I wanted to make him smart, but in like, the most ridiculous roundabout way, so he'd still be funny. I can't say I started it, but I was definitely way ahead on the trend for smart Chad. Back in the day there was a lot of talk about him IRL being kind of a dick, a sleazebag and sleeping around, and though I don't remember if there was confirmation, a lot of people talked about him cheating on Sophia being the reason their marriage ended. I can't confirm any of that but I remember it was the talk at the time. So a lot of people took pieces from these things and ran with them and the fic version of Chad was created as kind of a dick and a douchebag and usually Jared's best friend (because of them living together IRL for a while) and the comic relief. It seems to have morphed some over time, which is good, because RL Chad seems to have grown up and to be a good person at this point in his life.

I wanted to talk about top Jensen and Top Dean, too, but this is getting so long lol Just know that back in 2008, 90% of fic was Top Jared and Top Sam, and my understanding is that that's now shifted and rebalanced the other way, to like 90% Top Jensen and Dean now. Although maybe it has shifted again in the last five years to be more balanced, Idk. I don't read fic like I used to.

Anyway, seriously, thank you SO SO SO SO MUCH for this. It means so much to me that you took the time to write all this out to me. Thank you for telling me all these things and for sending me so much love! Sending love right back at you! And feel free to ask me anything, any time! <3<3<3

[quietwingsinthesky]

what do you think people would say about supernatural/the winchesters relationship if sam was female?

Realistically, I think Sam being a woman would have given the show itself free rein to be So Much Fucking Weirder towards her. I know this ask is mostly about the fandom’s reaction, but I need to set the basis that, given everything we know about how the show already is, Supernatural would have taken the Sam Experiencing Sexual Violence dial that is already at 9 and cranked that baby up to 20 and left it there for the whole run. And also, given everything else we know about the show, every time Dean ribs about Sam being gay in canon would either 1) stay that way but now have the extra layer of “Dean is really into watching girls fuck” on top of it to make it weird or 2) would just flat out be replaced with Dean hitting on Sam/insinuating something along the lines of ‘why would u ever want another guy? when I am here and all u need?’ because Dean is already a creep obsessed with his brother, can you imagine how it would’ve been written if he had a baby sister instead? Homophobia was the only thing holding the show back from flat out incest sometimes, I swear to god.

Okay, so. Now that I have established All Of That.

For one, we have to take into account how the fandom tended to react to female characters in general. Let’s see the forecast is uh. Bad. We are looking at huge divides between the “Sam is cool, we like her” and the “Sam is a bitch and the show should just be about Dean” crowds. (And the third crowd of “Sam should fuck her brother 😩”, absolutely wincest would still be a thing. It might be even more of a thing in this universe, but that’s all speculation.) Especially when s4 rolls around and Sam decides to be a little evil (and have a girlfriend? I’m assuming everything else in the show goes as is, and so would the Ruby plotline. Which means that’s going to awaken even more things in people than it already does. I would have stopped functioning if I saw girl!Sam/Ruby blood drinking and fucking on my screen as a preteen do you have any idea-) People are going to villainize the shit out of her for that, never let it go.

(Now, as the fandom ages, a lot of this is gonna simmer down like it did for real for characters like Bela. But in the moment? A goddamn war zone. Toxic waste dump.)

And we need to talk about the elephant in the room. Destiel. We already exist in a world where Sam will be completely sidelined and erased to get Dean and Castiel’s love story to seem like the most important plot of Supernatural. Now, I want you to imagine the absolute hell that would be to exist in a fandom where Destiel is the big slash ship and the other main character of the show is a woman. At best, continued sidelining. At worst, we are looking at “Sam is a bitch and the show should be about dean only” attitudes that carry forward into “Sam is a bitch who is in the way of destiel and should be killed off to get her out of the way.” Which you may note is usually a role given to female love interests that are despised for breaking up the main ship. This is because, for all intents and purposes, Sam is the main love interest in competition with Castiel for Dean. On a fandom level between ship wars of destiel vs wincest, but also textually, in the show, beyond shipping, Sam fills out that role in a platonic way as well and Castiel doesn’t. If Sam was a woman, this spells bad news for her. No woman gets in the way of gay ships and comes out unharmed.

Okay and now let’s talk about Lucifer because we need to talk about Lucifer, I’m a Lucifer blog, I’m a samifer girl, and I can tell you that none of these things would change for me if I was watching this version of the show lol. But! Remember what I said about the Sam Sexual Violence dial? Yeah. That is going to be. Extremely loud. Every time Sam and Lucifer are in the same scene. I guarantee you this is the universe where we get evil forced Samifer kisses at multiple points. This is absolutely the universe where, when Lucifer decides he wants a kid, he tries to get Sam pregnant first and only if he fails does he move onto someone else (and hint: he probably doesn’t fail.) Think about every Sam & Lucifer scene that ever happened and now reimagine it but the show can now be as weirdly sexually violent as it feels like because it’s “straight” now. The innuendos are out, and Lucifer is going to pin Sam against a wall at some point.

I’m very into this, but I feel like this would make the whole fandom situation around them a lot worse. People already get up in arms around samifer, or even liking Lucifer at all. If all that subtext became flat out text and people could gif “Times Lucifer sexually assaulted Sam on screen” into little gotcha compilations, it would be way more of a struggle to exist around here.

But like I’d still be into it so I’d definitely still be here, give me those comps, I’m gonna jerk off to them

ANYWAY. That’s what I think would change if Sam was a lady. Overall, not great, but I think there would also be a lot of people who find her relatable, empowering, etc, and really enjoy her as a woman. Probably the same people who like Sam now, honestly. If there’s any universe I got a chance to peak into, I’d want it to be this one. If only for samruby canon lesbian sex.

[wisecollectorofbooks]

Seems to be an unpopular opinion, but I loved (even as I cried a bit) the OFMD finale. Could more have been told in the story of a character? Sure, absolutely. Could I see this ending coming 6 episodes ago? Yes, absolutely. Was it a bad ending? No.

This ep wasn't bury your gays, wasn't queerbaiting. It was a story that hits us hard, because it was meant to. But if there was going to be an ending for this character, I would rather this, than an off screen fridging of a character, or whatever bullshit supernatural tried to pull. We've been on an emotional character arc over two seasons, and while arcs can absolutely continue on in further rounds, they can also end, and sometimes should, so that we and they don't continue on an endless cycle of problem and re-growth, problem and re-growth (I'm looking at you, OUAT).

I think the hardest thing about this ending has more to do with HBO shortchanging the series by 2 eps this season. The season itself suffered in the second half by having to fit so much plot into a condensed period, that we didn't get quite the same series "downtown" that we had last season. Had we had that extra time, maybe some of the things people hating on this ep/this ending hoped for could have happened, in some fashion, that would have tempered some of the anger.

That isn't the fault of the actors or djenks. If you want to be pissed at someone, be pissed at HBO.

But as a story, this was a satisfying ending, to me. If there had to be one, I liked this one, even though it makes me sad. I will be avoiding the fuck out of the fandom though, because from what i've seen so far, so many are just so fucking toxic when the story in their head isn't what appeared on screen.

Seriously people. Fanfic. That is what it is there for.

And side note - don't get me fucking wrong. I am going to miss the fuck out of this character, if we get a 3rd season. I love the actor, I loved-to-hate/loved the character throughout the entire series thus far. But maybe it is because I've been around fandoms where there have been less satisfying character arcs with similar endings, I am, and will remain, perfectly happy with this ending we've been given.

[hologramcowboy]

I’m not gonna lie, this fandom is absolutely draining but I do miss watching supernatural and because of the whole prequel debacle, coupled with toxic and delusional fans, I stopped watching it and can’t stand Jensen or Misha sometimes, but once I realized that they aren’t a reflection of their characters and Dean wouldn’t go behind Sam’s back and completely shit on TW and Jensen (I told myself I wouldn’t be petty in this post, but I couldn’t help it lol), I feel like I can pick supernatural back up again, but this time just stay away from the online fandom, or just interact with Jared fans, normal Jensen fans, and normal destiel fans, because even the last two actually understand what supernatural was about and aren’t toxic as fuck.

It's important to emphasize that ANY "faction" of fandom has extremely balanced, intelligent, loving people just as it has it's cray cray ones, anon. I know I am heavy on AA criticism but please know that when I reference hateful hellers or unbalanced Jensen stans, I am exclusively referring to those sad cases that propagate negativity and lack of balance. None of the SPN loving groups have only cray cray people but sometimes it can seem that way.

My advice to you is to detach as much as possible from the drama and to focus on creating a list of positive aspects about fandom, SPN and why you love watching it. What is the essence behind that show? Love. Unconditional love. Despite flaws, conflicts and high challenges, impossible challenges. How can you include more into your life? Because that's what's at the core of why you love the show.

You could even do an Emotional Diary and write "I love enjoying Supernatural because" and then let your pen flow, write without filter and if you feel yourself controlling your thoughts then start over. (This is an exercise actors use but it is very healing in real life too, you can use it to tap into your deeper feelings and bring forth unconscious patterns, key motivations, etc)

I love that you have already decided to connect with healthy people and have rich conversations, fandom is beautiful precisely because it gives you a chance to connect with likeminded individuals and share passions. Enjoy and thank you for the ask! 🧡

[we-pay-for-everything]

My very unpopular TVD opinions since you're always so kind and non-judgmental: 1. Given the context, ie a supernatural universe where everything and everyone is morally skewed and toxic to one degree or another, I don't think delena is nearly as toxic as most claim. I love them and believe in their love for each other. I found myself believing they'd have a very happy life together. And I like kalroline, but to me they're more toxic, and I don't get the argument that they're somehow healthier?! Still, the point is that "toxic" is kind of a ridiculous label to apply to ships on this type of show! 2. I like Caroline a lot, but I feel like overall she's a little overrated. 3. I adore Elena despite her flaws and think she's very underrated by the fandom overall! 4. I don't like Stefan even though I really wanted to. I don't know if it's the acting or the writing, but he just seems like a self-superior, emotionally detached, dishonest, smug, sanctimonious and hypocritical ass to me the majority of the time despite his (mostly performative) "goodness"! 5. I love Bonnie/Enzo. I get the argument that they were underdeveloped and that Bonnie was just thrown with Enzo so she'd finally have an epic love of her own, but regardless of the writers' motivations, it actually worked for me!

That's what I keep saying! Elena dating Stefan after the shit he put her through with Klaus was probably not a sound choice, but this is TVD and shit like that was normal. Delena are not healthy, even by TVD standards, but the degree to which they're "toxic" is exaggerated by the fandom and the show, and largely stems from the fact that their incompatibility is the major obstacle to their relationship, and a topic that is openly discussed by Delena and every other character. And, yes, Klaus tried to kill Caroline even when he already had feelings for her, and he killed Tyler's mother too, etc. Like Damon, he did terrible things to Caroline and to those she loved, but, unlike Damon, he wasn't an ally. I'm not sure they're less healthy, because they were never even a thing, but they aren't healthier.

I feel that way sometimes too, when the show and fans push the narrative that she's perfect.

I agree. She's my favorite TVD character! I don't understand why fans don't see she's just as badass and amazing as Caroline and Bonnie, and not just the cliché girl caught up in a love triangle.

I majorly disagree. I once felt like you, but now I adore Stefan, probably as much as Damon. I think he's genuinely a good guy, capable of admitting when he fucks up and who actually understands things aren't black and white. Apart from season 4, in which he acts like a sanctimonious ass a lot of the time (re: Delena and the cure), I think he's so warm, funny, and compassionate. I love that he isn't just the "good guy", he does have a lot of flaws and admits that he isn't always better than Damon or any other vampire so he doesn't have room to judge (too much). He can make fun of himself too.

I think I liked them as well? I haven't watched seasons 7 and 8 since the first time I watched them (I tried rewatching season 7 but had to stop after Damon's reaction to Elena's "death"), so I can't comment on this, but I'm pretty sure I liked them too.

Thanks for the ask! I like that my blog is a safe space for people to respectfully share their opinions.

[snakeoilpictures]

-DEEP BREATH-

Destiel. Is. Not. Canon.

When there are literally 15 seasons and 325/327 episodes that have down right not even acknowledged the depths of their relationship aside from "I'm the one who reached down and pulled you from perdition" shit.

Dean and Castiel are toxic to one another. Dean thinks the entire world revolves around him and Castiel thinks he keeps making the right decisions when he fucks up literally everything he touches. Also he seems to forget he's an angel half the fucking time and gets thrown across the room by a goddamn werewolf like he's a cum rag.

Sure, Castiel may have been crushing on Dean hard (but also that's because Misha Collins has no boundaries and continually sexualizes Jensen Ackles in panels and touches him inappropriately) but it was not reciprocated.

Yeah, maybe they acknowledged it in the musical episode, and how did Dean react? With disgust.

The SPN writers also failed the entire fandom.... BY LISTENING TO THE FANDOM.

Sometimes, fan service will absolutely destroy a series. Actually, most of the time. Castiel was supposed to die at the end of season 5 but because the fans loved him so much, they kept him in. The show was supposed to END on season 5, which would have been a perfect ending... I mean, how can you top Lucifer versus Michael and the apocalypse?

Borax and leviathans, that's how. -DIES-

They then continued to bring back every character who had ever died and made us feel something in their deaths... which in turn, cheapened everything. For fan service.

They made Chuck the big bad guy, even though it literally makes no sense and the Chuck in season 5 that vouched for the boys' "Free Will" was not the same Chuck that was so wholeheartedly against it he destroyed worlds. Fan service.

Then, at the very end of Castiel's appearances, he confesses to Dean he loves him. Dean says nothing. Destiel fans everywhere just DIE.

And there is literally nothing in the world to back it up.

For fan service.

Destiel is not canon. I don't care. You won't change my mind and Misha Collins continually sexualizing his coworker is just weird and would get someone sent to HR in every other environment, but the whole fandom supports him cause "GAAAAY" like, no. There are plenty of gay ships that are consensual and NOT TOXIC and they're much more sexy. Destiel was dredged in fan service, battered in digging at the bottom of the barrel, and fried in Misha Collins' wet dream.

Jensen is a dick too and don't even get me started on how he treated Jared.

TLDR; Misha is a creep. Jensen is a dickhead. Destiel is NOT canon.

Supernatural ran itself into the ground and is the perfect example of how a fandom can ruin a series.

okay wait ive never watched supernatural but is destiel canon?

i wish there were an easy answer to this question

[tonydaddingham]

hi there! i'm so sorry to bother you, and apologize for how obnoxious this probably sounds, but i am genuinely curious: do you actually like crowley as a character and his relationship with aziraphale? from reading a number of your posts, it seems like there isn't a single thing you find redeemable about crowley and it seems like there's isn't any merit you can find to his love for and relationship to aziraphale. i'm just wondering if i'm reading that wrong, which i totally could be. this of course isn't to say characters can't be toxic and we can't still like them, but some of these points really confuse me because it just seems like you're purposely injecting toxicity into each and every single aspect of his relationship and his character which just sometimes seems reductive and removing any nuance or complexity from him/his relationship to aziraphale. or you liken him to his abuser (aka heaven) in how he treats aziraphale. i just don't understand, especially when you analyze aziraphale in a completely different fashion, even in instances where he directly treats crowley as heaven does in how he refers to him/demons/hell.

hi anon!!!✨ oh gosh no, not bothering me at all, and it's a completely valid question!

i utterly adore crowley! please - and anyone else reading that is asking the same question - don't think i don't! i think not only is he a really fantastic character and utterly likeable, but he's so complex and intricately written... i honestly and completely love him!!!💕

but what you (general) have to understand is that i see these characters - aziraphale too - as just that. very, very complex characters with hundreds of complimentary and opposing facets, and are equally questionable as they are lovable. i find their relationship as romantic and poetic as i do (sometimes) toxic and reductive. they might be supernatural beings, but the story is also (to me) an examination on human condition, and being human is messy!!!

what i suspect - and i mean this kindly - is that you might be reading only a handful of posts/ask responses that deliberately look at crowley specifically in a critical light. and i think it possibly stands out because actually, i personally don't think a lot of people do view crowley critically. perhaps that's a bias in my part - in fact, definitely is! but unfortunately i think the fandom is relatively one-sided in this respect. talking about asks specifically, i dont really get a lot regarding aziraphale (although id love to, if that would give me an opportunity to parse out where aziraphale is equally questionable!) so im not as vocal in my critique of him. but it's not because i think crowley is the only one of the duo with flaws and that displays problematic behaviour.

furthermore, please remember that you are only seeing snapshots of individual aspects where i critique crowley; what i mean by that is that there isn't a single instance (unless i did a mighty multi-thousand word dissertation!) where i could talk about all of my observations of crowley's character. if i did, i promise you there would be a hefty amount of good things about crowley that i could discuss.

i will also say that whilst i appreciate how it must come across, i don't purposely inject anything anywhere - i don't do it out of any nastiness or vindictiveness. i consider myself a relatively experienced adult, with a good degree of objective emotional maturity, that has had quite a bit of practice in examining human behaviour (job) and analysing different patterns and characteristics (also job). if i call out toxicity, it's because i see toxicity. if i call out horrible or hurtful behaviour, it's because i see horrible or hurtful behaviour. that doesn't mean i hate any character (if anything, it endears me to them more because - gasp! - they're not perfect and actually very relatable!). it also does not mean that i expect anyone to agree with me, not at all, but i deserve - same as anyone - to offer an interpretation that whilst may not be agreeable, is objectively just as valid.

my analysis (or critique, whichever) is my own opinion, interpretation, and perspective. it is not necessarily right or wrong, and whilst i may joke about it, i don't think i have ever categorically stated or alluded to the fact that i must be right, and every other interpretation is wrong. if everyone had the same opinion and saw crowley - and aziraphale for that matter - as completely flawless, or at least we all interpreted them in the same way... well, it'd be utterly boring, right?

all i aim to do is offer an alternative perspective on these characters and their relationship, maybe something that others might not have considered. the general reaction to them and their relationship is positive, and maybe offering a different take on that, for some people, might be interesting. if they're not interested, or disagree, all they have to do is scroll on, or challenge me the way you have - respectfully and eloquently! discussion and conflicting interpretation is good; it offers different perspectives and experiences, and maybe offers some the opportunity to step back from loving a character (as they should, they're so lovable!), and instead look at them objectively, and ask questions. personally, i don't think there's anything wrong with that✨

[mysecondcarisa67chevyimpala]

The angels tend to be my favourite characters. Especially Cas, Gabe, and Balthazar... And I 100% agrees with you!!! Absolutely every single thing you said was completely correct. All the characters just get tossed aside in order to give something to Sam and Dean. They exist for five solid minutes to make an angsty scene and then aren't talked about again unless they are the only thing that can help the Winchesters and it sucks - friend nonnie

Argh I wrote a whole answer to this before the app closed! (Here’s the condensed version maybe?) If Dean showed more emotion (crying or being sad when it’s not about him or Sam or to an extent Cas) it would be better (like they burned the picture of jo and Ellen after they died and that was the whole reason for the photo!) Sam was upset when Jess died (seeing her having nightmares all that even though some of it was his powers I think) but after that he was like shocked for a minute then okay. When Jo died Ellen was ready to die with her she couldn’t live like the boys where she just keeps going on with no one with her she lost her husband, Ash, Jo, and her bar on top of them. She had nothing and she decided she was ready, that is emotion and a reaction to a death. The boys don’t show anything when someone dies (when Sam was told that mark of Cain Dean got someone killed a random girl showed more emotion than him) Dean gets upset if someone even looks at his car (which I find hilarious and funny because I understand) but like he shows more emotion for his car than he does with people. They also hate it when angels do the same thing (or demons) where they let someone die or whatever and deans like you shouldn’t do that even though that’s what he does. Idk I wish there was more “chick flick moments” I guess? Like I wish they had more scenes of people talking about others and remembering the part and who they lost because that’s what people do? Like I know you can’t have them only do that but sometimes it would work. (I also talked about Rowena being killed and Sam felt bad but then she was immediately like queen of hell so it was different because she can do stuff like Crowley did, which I’m also sad he’s gone I liked him. And when she died he showed emotion about it because he had to do it and then it was poof gone until we see her again) (Ketch dies and they didn’t give a single shit they were, oh anyway, and just moved the fuck on, which like sure they didn’t like him but he died trying to help them and like Dean shot him to get the ghost out so I would’ve hoped he felt sorta bad about any of it but nope) (Dean felt sad whenever Benny died because he got him out and he helped him and Sam and then he died for them but I think it was more of a I saved him but then he wanted to die and I let him kinda thing rather than he died) (Plus Dean always tries to (and does) kill people??? The soulless dude from the ghost house with Amara, the monster mom trying to save her son, the werewolf sisters (before he found out they weren’t going to be okay plus tried to kill the one who was okay), the imaginary friends, like really I think Dean just doesn’t really (idk not doesn’t understand I guess understand the full extent or permentantness of death maybe) care about death? Like to him it’s they’re lost we’re not we can try to save the world or save our friends and I feel like he likes to be a hero but then gets overwhelmed??? Idk I love him but then sometimes (like trying to kill jack immediately, or the guy that had powers like Sam that killed his abusive family, or any of the others that had powers like Sam, or witches who aren’t bad and their familiars, the dude that almost ate his wife in the beginning, the girl the men of letters killed (Magda or something? She had powers like Sam and her family hated that), trying to kill Bobby’s wife and the other zombies, which later was what happened but he was like immediately going to kill them, etc.) Dean just decides that everyone who’s not perfectly human is bad (even Sam sometimes) idk it’s kinda upsetting because he wasn’t like that in the beginning and it wasn’t a character change it was more like they were suddenly saying he was a with me or die kinda person.

This doesn’t make any sense and I had a better written (actually almost shorter?) one that explained it more but I can’t think how to describe it Dean almost lets people die for him and Sam to live even his friends and doesn’t hesitate to threaten or kill people who don’t deserve it and as much as I love him sometimes I’m like that was fucked up). I hate that most characters are expendable (even characters like Becky who were added for a very specific reason without connections to anyone, just a fan of the book that chuck told to pass a message, suddenly getting dragged on and then killed suddenly). I love the angels on the show and sad they are all gone because I liked them I get some people had to die (or there wouldn’t be a plot or any cases for them to be on) but like they (the directors) shouldn’t kill everyone they (the Winchester’s) know for shock factor and never bring it up in the show.

[spiders-hth-is-an-outlier]

The reason I can't survive in the atmospheric conditions of Spn fandom, or at least in the part of it that exists on Tumblr and would otherwise cater to my interests, is that Discourse is dominated by a certain perspective that – counterintuitive as this sounds – is hugely retrograde on matters of gender in ways that the show itself is not.  And that's bonkers!  You shouldn't have shittier gender ideas than the CW's Supernatural!  But the show is literally about a young man who idolizes his violent, repressed Boomer father and imitates him as a way of proving his own credibility and masculinity, then gradually over the course of many years softens into a version of himself that is more spontaneous, less defensive, less enamored of the role of violence and the idea of The War Hero, and comes to center his identity more around his relationships and his loyalty to family and friends – and there is genuinely a huge part of the fandom who will argue that all of this is not a story about what it means to be a man.  That Dean is “female-coded” or that it's obvious he doesn't want to be a man...because his story is about testing and rejecting the premises of toxic masculinity.  The very concept of looking at a man who realizes the ways in which he was taught to be a man are inimical to his own love and happiness and reading that as making him somehow no longer a man at all is fuckbonkers, and it would be insulting if it weren't so frankly laughable.  Sure, this character who was created by a cis man, written by a succession of cis male producers and screenwriters, and heavily influenced by the cis male actor who portrayed him for fifteen years is clearly just “pretending” to be invested in masculinity and what it means to be a man.  Because obviously that's not a subject that men have complicated or nuanced feelings about that they then work out through art.  And obviously the minute Dean Winchester puts on goofy cartoon boxers or tries to make people feel better by feeding them pancakes or decides not to make a big performative fuss over how much he hates pop music, he's admitting the secret truth: that he was never really masculine, never really a Real Man, he was always only faking it – never mind the fact that masculinity and manhood as infinitely conditional states of being that can be revoked from you against your will the very second you step outside certain narrow confines of personality, taste, and behavior is literally the foundational logic of toxic masculinity.  We're going to deploy that logic in a fun, queer way! Because Dean has sometimes been in a caregiver role, and that's women's work!  So if he sometimes also seems to like muscle cars and professional wrestling and fishing trips and slasher movies and strip clubs and heavy food and hard alcohol, that's obviously part of the illusion, it's “performance,” it's not masculinity because masculine people can't also be caregivers or be family-oriented or thoughtful or generous or silly or express vulnerability, if they do any of those things it's a mask-off moment that cancels out their attempts to fake being a man.

It's total bullshit, it's harmful bullshit, and it's so insanely pervasive in the fandom, weirdly enough most pervasive among people who claim to love Dean the most.  (Also among people most committed to the idea that Dean is canonically a mlm character, which – whooo golly, “queer men are failures at manhood” is a whole other tentacle of this Awful-Take Octopus.)

[praisetheplatonicism]

Y'know, I'm not really a shipper, for reasons my username (url? what's the right word here?) probably make fairly obvious - in general, the fact that every super close male platonic relationship gets overwhelmingly 'interpreted' romantic by the fandom drives me nuts. Most fandoms don't seem capable of letting men show affection for each other beyond the most casual care without insisting it must be a romantic or sexual thing because 'friends/siblings/what-have-you don't do that', and I just... it implies platonic love can't be all that, and it's maddening. Plus, does it not just prove to straight men that hey, yeah, actually you can't show affection to your friends (or FAMILY), cause people will still assume it's a sexual thing anyway? Does that not kinda promote that toxic masculinity thing of 'emotion bad'? It's just... my biggest pet peeve, people looking at others' relationships and dictating what they are. I've had it done to me in real life, and wow, not fun. And, of course, I'm just about the biggest hopeless bromantic you'll ever meet, so you can imagine how irritating ship-crazy fandom can get. I'm certainly not unbiased here.

HOWEVER.

I think this almost knee-jerk distate really only came from what shipping has become as of late - a hell war of people screaming and demanding that it MUST be canon, it IS canon, look at the EVIDENCE (as they point to a scene that is easily platonic-interpretable and not inherently romantic at all, and the assumption otherwise is blatant amatonormativity), and refusing to let anyone disagree or they're wrong (or 'homophobic', that's a fun one). Making the entire show or movie or whatever about their ship when it demonstrably Is Not That, yelling 'queerbaiting' when they don't get their way. I admit, this is the very worst of what it's been like recently, but it's still prevalent enough. When something has a deep, powerful platonic love as its main focus (for ONCE) and all anyone can do is insist its actually romantic, or when people are so focused on the ship the actual Whole Point goes sailing gracefully over their head (especially when that Whole Point is literally about platonic love, looking at you Supernatural), I die a little inside.

If shipping was seen as just a bit of fun, just playing with the source material rather than trying to CHANGE it, it wouldn't bother me at all! Like yeah, go nuts, power to you. I've even done that before, despite being Miss Platonic. But the way shipping has been recently (really since I've been in fandom, so like, 10 years or so? and probably well before) actually sometimes starts to threaten the integrity of the source material, like if enough people interpet something a certain way it BECOMES that, and I hate to see stories lose their idenitity like that. It feels a little disrespectful, like how can you really love this thing if you're so desperately trying to change its heart and soul? If you so blatantly ignore its Whole Point? Shipping has become weirdly cult-y, and I just don't like being around it.

Or maybe the entire concept has just been poisoned by prolonged contact with the Supernatural fandom. Cause we know what THEY can be like, don't we. Even just peeking at finale discourse made me want to smite myself.

To be clear, this is about the kind of shipping that INSISTS something is actually romantic, not the kind that just likes to play with that idea. The latter is no problem; it's the former that's a nightmare.

I feel like shipping culture changed a lot in recent years and it has made fandom spaces a lot less fun. There is this persistent obsession with proving your ship is canon, frenetically searching for clues and hints, reading everything as a metaphor for a character's repression, talking about how "we can still win" and making literally everything in a show about this ship. Of course there's nothing wrong with wanting more representation but my dudes just think about the show you're watching. If someone in a long-running show has always been represented as straight or if the show has never been about romance, then it's not going to happen and trying to force this ship on everyone else, bringing it up in every discussion about the show won't change that. Not saying everything used to be all roses, there have always been ship wars and stuff but in my experience people used to be much more relaxed, having fun shipping in fanon. Shipping is supposed to be fun! It's about playing around with characters and exploring possibilities canon doesn't. It's not about reading subtext in everything and proving how your perspective is superior or, god forbid, activism.

[erosia-rhodes]

Top 9 Newbie thoughts on Supernatural after Six Months of Madness

I started watching Supernatural a week before the series finale, and full disclosure, it was only because I heard about the gay angel. I loved me some Good Omens, so I decided to check out a series my only previous thoughts about had been, "Is that show still on?" In the past six months, I've watched about fifty percent of the episodes scattered across all fifteen seasons. I've also spent time following the bonkers-in-the-best-way fandom on Tumblr, and here is what I have learned:

1) Everyone who loves Supernatural also hates Supernatural

No one is capable of praising this show without also trashing it. Supernatural is as awful as it is awesome. Watching Supernatural is like hate-fucking your nemesis against a wall; you're totally conflicted about it, but it's enormously pleasurable and you know you're going to do it over and over again. No one has a pure, untainted love for this show. They only have complicated emotions. This is because…

2) The fact that the show needs to be fixed is an essential part of its appeal

Strangely, if this show were better, it wouldn't be as popular. If you love a show that is perfect, you watch it once or twice or thrice, make a bunch of memes, and move on with your life two years later when you find something else to hyper-fixate on. If you love a show that's broken, you spend the rest of your life obsessed with fixing it. It's the crooked photo hanging on the wall that yearns to be straightened (because, you know, this show is bad at making things straight). It's the stray dog you know would be adoptable if you fattened it up and socialized it with your other dogs, and just like some people can't stop rescuing animals, Supernatural fans can't stop thinking about how to fix a show that isn't great, but could be with a flea bath and a trip to the groomers. Supernatural fans are not fans of the actual show, but of the show they imagine it could be, one that only exists in an alternate universe. They are in love with the Platonic ideal of Supernatural. That's also the reason why…

3) The fans understand the characters and themes better than 95% of the people who worked on the show

The people who watch Supernatural have thought about it way, way, way, more than anyone who produced it. I have read complex essays about what the color of people's clothing imply and how the state of the Impala reflects the state of Dean's mental health and other things I'm certain this show did not do intentionally. People can find depth in the shallowest aspects of this series. Any random fan could explain the complicated dynamics of the Winchester family and the overriding themes of the series better than most of the people who worked on it. That includes the LGBTQ stuff, which leads to the fact that…

4) The show is simultaneously too gay and not gay enough

On one end of the spectrum are fans who are offended you would dare to suggest one of the Winchesters might like kissing a boy and they'll shove you in a locker and duct tape your butt cheeks together for it. On the other end of the spectrum are fans who think it's odd that every episode doesn't end with two attractive men dry humping in a dark corner of the bunker library. No one is happy with the level of gayness on this show. It's always got too much "No Homo" or too much queer subtext, which is why I've concluded that…

5) The audience this show wanted is not the audience they got and they are resentful of it

The original pitch for this show targeted a male demographic who’s into toxic masculinity in a non-ironic way. It was about bros and beers and muscle cars and shotguns and hot chicks who will be killed to further the man's storyline. However, when making that show, they accidentally created a show that attracted female viewers who liked speculating about the queer subtext of each scene while looking at pretty men with traumatic backstories fight back their man tears. The show depends on the unintended audience segment to survive, but is bitter about it, which they remind you of time and time again by killing the female and non-white characters and toying with endless queer-baiting. It's like the writers got a plane to Rome, ended up in a gay nightclub in Amsterdam instead, and even though the canals and tulips make it a lovely city to visit, they wanted to go to Rome, damnit, and they'll never let you forget it! I also suspect that…

6) The people who made this show were at constant war with each other

This show has such a split personality. Sometimes it leans into the gay stuff and other times it makes fun of it outright. Sometimes they'll introduce an interesting side character that could make the show more diverse and then they'll slaughter that person for practically no reason. Sometimes they praise free will and other times they force people down pre-destined paths. The writers feel like a dysfunctional family stuck at Thanksgiving dinner endlessly squabbling with each other—who then had to write a TV show together over dessert. That's why it's such a weird hot mess. The show's unevenness makes me think that…

7) Some people's attachment to the show can only be explained by the fact that it imprinted on them when they were young

Some fans have mentioned they started watching Supernatural when they were kids. It's a pretty common experience to go back and watch things you loved when you were a kid and realize they were…not so good. Your memories of them are far better than the reality of them, but you cling to them anyway. The shows you watch when you're young imprint on you in a way you never forget. Supernatural fans are like a baby duck who looks up at a cat and assumes it’s their mother. Then that cat slices open their poor little hearts, leaving them wounded but not dead, forever be toyed with in agony. The only relief is that…

8) The fandom is batshit insane in the best way

I started following the Supernatural fandom on Tumblr in November of 2020 and OMG, it was AH-MAZE-ING. It was total insanity. I didn't understand half of what was going on, but it was more fun than a yard full of puppies doing zoomies. People were posting detailed PowerPoint presentations theorizing how the series would end, citing extensive physical evidence like the background in Misha's hotel room. People learned election results through Supernatural memes. Destiel went canon every other week. When the Spanish dub was released, Tumblr literally crashed! Obama's Twitter was following a Destiel account. There was a Twitter wedding for Destiel on Valentine's Day, which made the one-month anniversary on Pi Day.

It's been a ride, y'all. I have no idea how you guys survived fifteen years of this. The fandom has been so much fun that I actually sat down and watched more than 100 hours of this show so I could understand everything better. It's like the show is an extension of the fandom instead of vice versa. If anything sums up Supernatural for me, that's it. It's all about the fandom and the show is secondary to that. It's like the fans willed the show into existence as part of some partially botched spell. And part of that twisted spell is that…

9) The show will never die until someone finds its bones and burns them

This show has been off the air for more than six months now and it keeps trending on Tumblr consistently. Misha recently trended on Twitter simply because he was at the Oscars. That was it! He didn't even do anything there, he just attended, and some people figured it out by the reflection in a photo posted by someone else! And just as I was proofreading this post, Destiel started trending again because John Cena is a stan or something? This fandom is crazy and unpredictable and I love it like Dean loves pie! If there ever does come a time when this show stops trending, that will be the moment when they decide to reboot it or revisit it.

There is a lot more I could say about this show, but these were the elements that seemed most unique and bizarre about it. I wouldn't say Supernatural is a ride-or-die fandom for me, and I have no intention of watching another 100 hours of this series, but it's been hella' fun to drop in for a while. The show is just as much a dysfunctional mess as the Winchester family and I guess that's why people love it, right?

[therealvinelle]

Thoughts on destiel?

Oh boy.

I have thoughts on this, a multi-part fuck-off sized meta level thoughts on this, but as it happens my past self has done me a huge favor on this one.

Devoted followers of this blog will remember the Muffin and I made our own TV tropes. This is not a tropes dictionary we'll ever publish in full, so don't ask, but every so often an ask hits just right (like when we have to justify "Aro is Charlie Kelly") and there's nothing to it but to publish an entry.

And it so happens that I made a Destiel entry some time ago. Note before you read this, the structure of these tropes is that we include definitions of what the trope is (sometimes there are several meanings, hence the enumeration), as well as an explanation of what the trope even is.

Keep in mind that this was never meant to be published, it was meant for our eyes only. But hey, you asked and this saves me time.

Also, yes I know all of this is fucking weird.

Edit: another important note, I stopped watching in early season 9 and really only consider the first five seasons canon. This is in large parts because the show just failed to do anything at all that I enjoyed after that, and several things the show did, like “oh season 4 wasn’t anything special for Cas, he actually rebels all the time lol. CRACK IN HIS CHASSIS”, made it impossible for me to enjoy the show. It’s just easier to make the cutoff at the Kripke era while things still pretend to mean anything.

Destiel

/dəstɪel/;

1

Noun

A nonexistent ship. A Destiel ship is when the fandom ships Character A with Sexy Lamp B. The Destiel ship is past incompatible, because you could still get relationship angst and in turn a ship out of incompatibility. The Destiel ship is nonexistent because one half of the ship is of a nature that means he cannot meaningfully be in a romantic relationship with anybody, regardless of how much character development he goes through or even how much love there may be between him and character A. Originating from Supernatural, a TV series whose fans came to passionately ship one of the show’s main characters, Dean Winchester, with the angel Castiel. Dean Winchester is a womanizing redneck dudebro with daddy issues. Castiel is a multi-dimensional celestial entity created to fulfill God’s Will. Castiel is not boyfriend material. Not to be confused with Anna/Elsa or Christine/Erik.

Lily/Rabbit is a Destiel ship.

Steven Universe is full of Destiel ships.

2

Destiel, the abbreviation of Dean Winchester/Castiel, is the insanely popular slash ship that rose up in the Supernatural fandom in the show’s fourth season, when the character Castiel was introduced. Originally a Honey Maren ship, the ship has since grown to quite possibly have the most notable fandom on the internet. Notable is really the only word for it, these people invented ABO, ruled supreme on social media for years, and in many ways made Supernatural’s reputation what it is today. Their impact on fanfiction and slash culture is immense. Unfortunately, the ship is the worst. On a very fundamental level, Dean does not understand what Castiel is, and he never truly forgives him for being a supernatural creature. When he tries to bond with him, it’s over human things Castiel has no understanding of, which in turn only serves to highlight how lonely Dean is, that the closest thing he has to a friend is a celestial entity he doesn’t begin to understand. Castiel, on his end, loves Dean, but in the way of angels. He loves all of God’s creations, some more than others but still not in a carnal way. He’s a multidimensional wavelength of celestial intent, he feels no hunger, thirst, pain, or pleasure (or if he does then it’s usually a sign something is extremely wrong and he’ll spend the episode whining about it). The one time he does experience temptation, he’s not actually experiencing his own temptation, it’s Jimmy Novak’s consciousness giving him trouble. Angels don’t feel emotions the way humans do, what they have seems to be a different concept altogether. There’s also the fact that Castiel can’t walk the Earth in his true form, so he must possess the form of Jimmy Novak if he wants screentime. Jimmy Novak is not happy about this, he at first didn’t understand what he was saying yes to then was later coerced with the threat of certain death and his daughter’s endless torment if he didn’t let Castiel possess him. If Dean and Castiel are somehow having sex, they’re raping Jimmy Novak. Lastly, the relationship is quite toxic, as Dean is a toxic person, and his relationship with Castiel is no exception. In short, Destiel is a horrifying, impossible ship that hinges on Castiel looking upon his Father’s creation and saying “I want to stick Jimmy Novak’s dick in that.”, Dean raping a vessel after spending his life freeing people like Jimmy, and sexual love between a human and a divine entity being feasible.

[galactichoneybee92]

Thoughts on BakuDeku

I’ve been lurking in the MHA fandom for a while now, just kind of silently watching, and I have a few observations that I would like to make. Just perspectives that I would like to put out into the universe. I am on the older side of this website, much less this fandom and so I am no stranger to fandom culture. And when I say old? I mean like I was an active participant on ff.net circa 2005 so like, I’m sure some of you are older but I’m getting up there. My point? I’ve seen things.

As far as fandoms go in general, the MHA is far from the most toxic that I’ve seen but there does seem to be a few points of contention and per usual it comes back to shipping. This is nothing new but lets speak a little on BakuDeku as a ship. I warn you now, it’s not always going to be things you want to hear, but I encourage you to read to the end anyway. 

Horikoshi has fully admitted to having been a huge Naruto fan and it’s pretty easy to see the influence in his work. On that note, it’s pretty safe to say that the Midoriya/Bakugo relationship can be compared to the Naruto/Sasuke relationship. You can see other parallels (All Might = Iruka, Aizawa =  Kakashi, etc...) but for the sake of argument let’s focus solely on Midoriya/Bakugo. Personally, I tend to prefer MHA to Naruto overall, as I just like the characters better and as such I like Bakugo a lot more than Sasuke. Horikoshi has taken more time to humanize Bakugo, and while he started off being a total dick, he’s also a dumb fuck teenage boy and he’s had a lot of character growth over the last 29 volumes. 

In the Naruto fandom, much like in the MHA fandom, there were loads of fans who shipped Naruto and Sasuke romantically. If we are judging the probability of Midoriya and Bakugo becoming a cannon couple, it stands to reason that we can examine the author’s influences and infer that, no, they probably won’t. For one thing, homosexuality is still considered a controversial topic in Japan like in America, and even if the author wanted to make it romantic he would probably receive a good amount of push-back from publishers. 

Now I don’t want you to read this and think that I am at all against it. I’m not. And forever ago when I was reading Naruto I occasionally wondered what would happen if an author published a Shounen manga, got millions invested, and then SURPRISE it was a M/M romance all along. I think it would be fun but I can’t say that I am realistically convinced that it will happen. But that isn’t really the point of this post.

My point, is that this fandom, like many others (And this website in general???) needs to learn the difference between actual queer baiting and a ship that just...doesn’t happen? And I’ve seen all the arguments, about how they clearly love each other and how their bond is so deep and how if either of the characters had this kind of relationship with a female character it would ABSOLUTELY be romantic. And I hear your points, but if I may provide a few of my own: 

1. There are many different ways to love in the world and they don’t all have to involve romance and kissing and sex. Do you love your family? Do you have friends that you would die for? These are relationships that people have and their just as valid in fiction as in real life.

2. Yes, if they were opposite genders than it probably would be the central romance of the mange, but that isn’t proof of queer baiting so much as a general failure to accurately represent opposite gender friendships in media. There should be male and female friendships that are just as strong while remaining platonic so this is a failure but not the failure you thing it is.  (If anyone likes Kdramas, Suspicious Partner is an excellent one that has not only a great romantic subplot but also some WONDERFUL platonic M/F friendships and it’s just beautiful) (That being said I also recommend the Taiwanese drama HIStory 3: Trapped for a wonderful M/M romance since if you’re reading this post that’s probably something you’re into) 

I think that a lot of the problems come from the fact that good romantic relationships do build similarly to friendships. You get a lot of bonding moments, the characters getting to know each other better and coming to care for one another and since media tends to focus predominantly on romantic relationships it’s easy to just get into the mindset that like, all bonding moments are leading somewhere. And in a way they are: to friendship. And then sometimes that friendship leads to romance and sometimes it doesn’t but what I’m saying is that the two look very similar. You SHOULD be friends with your romantic partner, and I think that that is why it’s so easy to ship these sort of couples. Especially when they do have an especially deep bond like these two have.

As far as BakuDeku as a couple in general, yeah, I ship it. I’ve read my fair share of fanfiction and if it did happen I would be psyched. I didn’t always like Bakugo (He’s just doing THE MOST at all times) but I grew to love him and if he continues to grow in the direction that he has been I wouldn’t personally have any problems with it. They have an interesting dynamic that incorporates some of my favorite tropes and I think it would be cool if the manga went there. But if they don’t? That’s also fine. 

There have been several ACTUAL examples of queer baiting in media that I can point to such as the Japanese ads for Sherlock (I didn’t necessarily find the show itself to be queerbaiting but the Japanese ads for the new seasons hardcore did) and while I tried hard to defend Supernatural (WAY too much of the fandom shipped actual brothers together for me to believe that they understood the value of any sort of platonic relationship) they kind of blew that out of the water with whatever the fuck happened in that last season. 

I don’t see that happening here and while I know a lot of you are set for your ship to become cannon I just want you to maybe manage your expectations. Because in my experience, when it gets built up this big, if it DOESN’T happen the next thing fans do is start ranting about queer-baiting and insulting the series and the team and I don’t want to see that because it isn’t fair to any of them. I’ve seen it happen in other fandoms and it gets real ugly real fast. 

Alternatively, if anyone has watched the reboot of She-Ra and the Princesses of Power you will know that the creators played their cards super close to their chest, doing their best to properly develop the homosexual relationships they wanted while keeping it subtle enough that they could prevent themselves from being cancelled before the last season aired. Then they went all in and made their homosexual ships cannon in the final season because at that point the whole show was out wtf was going to happen? They’d get cancelled? It was already over. So if you would like a serving of hope to cling to, that is a thing that happened. I just wouldn’t necessarily bet on it. 

That being said, I fully support your right to ship anything you want. And if by some chance it does become cannon? More power to you. I’d be psyched. Horikoshis assistants ship the hell out of it and he clearly doesn’t mind so there is a point in your favor. But if it doesn’t? A lack of romance doesn’t invalidate the depth of their feelings for one another. Platonic love is still love and it’s still a powerful driving force in the story. Their relationship is still compelling even if there isn’t ever a kiss, or a confession. And hey, that’s what fanfiction is for. 

Remember kids: Please ship responsibly. 

[remythologise]

Hello! I found your blog via you amazingly summarizing all that's going on with the spn drama. Due to my schedules, rl stuff, some of the arcs that didn't vibe with me, my availability to find a place to watch...the rollercoaster I was used to with this fandom was more me binging it in a weekend to going months to over a year without watching it. I still haven't watched the last season(but with a fandom this big it's pretty impossible not be spoiled so I more or less know what happened) BUT oh great one I ask of thee for more information if you have it...other than being busy and whatnot, I'm not really one to keep up with the actors as well. So could you also maybe do a summary of all the stans? I'im seeing terms I haven't seen before. Who is Kelios(sp?)? Hellions?? probably messed it up but like...I guess what are the name of each legion? Who do they have alliance towards? What was their desires? Que paso?!?!?!?

Hi there! 'Some of the arcs that didn't vibe with me' me emotionally quitting Supernatural in Season 7 after they killed Castiel 😂 Anyway I totally get it, I went through the same culture shock mid-last year when I got back into SPN and tried to find where fandom was at! There's really a LOT of lore and content after 15 years though so I'll just do the broad brushstrokes based on my impressions and personal stereotypes PLEASE remember this is oversimplifying groups and individuals to tendencies and I'm very biased! Also important that there are sub-factions within sub-factions - again, I'm simplifying here!

I've also linked to the 'Super-wiki' in terms of some definitions because the Super-wiki has pages for them where the Fandom-wiki does not. Great introduction actually - only in the Supernatural fandom. There are two Supernatural wikis. One, through curation and twitter activity, supports BiBro/Wincest factions and does not support Destiel users. One is more neutral or Destiel-friendly (I don't know that the Fandom wiki has a personality/social media presence per se). You cannot make this up. There is a factional war... within use of fandom wikis.

Destiel faction

People who primarily ship Dean/Cas, love Castiel and (often, although not always) Jack, and the 'found family' of Supernatural as well as the brothers, and like the post s3 seasons too. Hated 15.19 and 15.20 for killing Dean and ignoring the other characters/narrative arc of the show. Nicknamed 'Destihellers' by the Wincest faction as a derogatory term, 'reclaimed' and shortened as 'Hellers', a nickname they use affectionately to describe each other. See more info on nicknames here.

Sometimes also ship ‘Cockles’ (the ship between Misha Collins and Jensen Ackles) although generally speaking they're more respectful of the wives of the actors than J2 shippers, who are notoriously responsible for... a vast series of insane-fan misdemeanours. Historically most were also good at keeping RPF to themselves and not harassing celebrities with it directly, although recently, particularly with younger twitter fans, that has not been the case.

Sub-factions:

The ‘Desticule’ or ‘Destiel tumblr’ - general grouping of Destiel-shipping tumblr users around 20-30 years old, usually LGBT+, most who came back to the show post-15.18 after leaving it for various reasons including getting sick of the queerbaiting. Funniest bitches alive etc. and responsible for the best text posts you’ve ever seen. Can also start stupid discourse and in-group drama when they’re bored.

'POLOL' - People of Lots of Letters, a discord group (of tumblr and twitter users) that ran on the assumption Andrew Dabb was playing a hugely intricate game of 3D chess to do with gnostic symbolism among other things, and would make Destiel canon. Have since had their own factional sub-wars and fallen apart a bit. Some of their meta was and is good and interesting! Some of it was wildly off the mark. Now generally insist that Dabb/the writers were all pushing for Destiel canon and the network is entirely to blame.

Twitter fans (TikTok edition) - younger fans around 18 and younger who (FOR REASONS BEYOND ME) started watching the show around 2018-2020. Definition of 'stans'. Tend to be very loud and aggressive on twitter when Events Happen, which like. I do get, because they've grown up in a completely different media environment and this kind of Dinosaur Politicking around LGBT+ issues is beyond them. Fancam central. Anyway stream #CASTIEL for clear skin!

Twitter fans (AO3 edition) - older fans around 30+ who kept going with the show but either don't have a large tumblr presence or just prefer twitter. A lot of fic writers, GISH-ers, and BNFs in this group. Some of them are very cool and reasonable in their opinions, some of them act like the younger stans. Some of them too accepting of what happened wrt 15.19-20 in my opinion, because, in contrast to the younger twitter stans, they grew up expecting Destiel to NEVER be canon or respected. 'Can't believe we got this far' etc.

Multiship faction

Multishippers or shippers of things not as large as the two main behemoths . Sub-factions based on shipping, e.g. Megstiel and Sastiel. I don't think these groups are very large though, and seem to have very little influence in the Discourse.

Wincest faction

LARGE overlap with the 'BiBro' faction and their opinions, which I'll get to. Ship Sam and Dean romantically. Often pretend to be BiBros on places like twitter and reddit in order for outside groups to take their opinions more seriously. 'Wincesties' etc. are derogatory nicknames given by the Destiel faction.

Sub-factions:

Multiship fans - ship Sam and Dean but respect Castiel/the 'found family'. Politically overlap with the faction of multishippers, I think. I don't have a lot of insight on this group of people honestly, but I know they exist.

Bronlies - the typical BiBro and 'Wincest' shippers most people think of, twitter user 'Kelios' is one of the would-be ringleaders of this faction - typically tend to be older white midwestern women. Historically have been pretty nasty on twitter (leading to Robert Berens, writer who made Destiel canon, occasionally subtweeting Kelios). Also tend to ship 'J2' - and take it very seriously as a legitimate thing that is really real. This is called 'tinhatting'.

BiBro faction

People who think the show should JUST be about the brothers, love Supernatural s1-3 and everything after it should have been just like Supernatural s1-3. Hate Castiel, Jack, and the 'found family'. Largely loved 15.20. Go to literally any comments section on any Supernatural article and You Will Find Them complaining about how the show should just be about the Brothers. Tend to be older, straighter, and more conservative/Republican (and male) fans. (I am aware that the definition of 'BiBro' used to refer to people who just liked the brothers but there's no definitional difference now in the discourse.) The Wincest and BiBro faction are generally much more wealthy than the Destiel faction (they being younger and more diverse/queer/left-leaning in general) and would be the biggest revenue generators at conventions etc.

Sub-factions:

Reddit bros - literally anyone who visits r/supernatural. Well, that's not fair - there are people who post reasonable opinions on there, but it's pretty rare and they get downvoted a lot. Like to talk about 'toxic Destiel fans' 'ruining the show' and how Dean is a straight man who is straight and could never possibly be gay. Might even think the confession was platonic despite all evidence to the contrary. I'm Not Homophobic I Have Gay Friends, But No Gays on MY Show!

Old Guard - group of older fans who overlap strongly with the Wincest faction, but might not necessarily ship Wincest.

GA faction

'General Audience' - These are the group of audience members that aren't 'online' so to speak; most watch the show on TV as a Casual Viewing Experience (are therefore also sometimes referred to as 'casuals'. Mostly their opinions tend towards BiBros, but they have a vast range of baffling views thanks to being Not Online and usually Not caring about Supernatural that much or thinking that deeply about it.

Sub-factions:

People who simply watch Supernatural on TV and then don't think about it very much after that.

I said they weren't 'online' but that's not entirely true; I'd probably classify people on Supernatural Facebook Groups as GA, along with friends of friends who post statuses about how 15.20 was a neat finale that wrapped up the series.

Conclusion

Supernatural is famously the show that appeals to both Republicans and Democrats, literally All Orientations, so there's a WIDE range of factions. However, most warring online boils down to Destiel vs. Wincest/BiBro - the war that started in Season 4 and has simply never ended. In terms of the 'actors' and their stans, in general, Wincest/BiBro fans love Jared, like Jensen, and dislike Misha. Destiel fans love Misha, like Jensen, and dislike Jared. Of course as with everything, there are variations and this is just a generalisation. But that's the summary of it, from my perspective!

This didn't even get into Sam girls, Dean girls and Cas girls. God. Anyway.

Hope that answered your question, anon!

[i-did]

Do you have any thoughts on the way “fuck you Nora” impacts things like ships, in particular the recent sentiment that andreil is toxic and other fanon ships are objectively better and healthier that’s in pockets of the fandom. Like I’ve definitely seen it in the Kevin-centric niche the most but even outside of that there’s this belief that things like jerejean and renison would be very soft and healthy when there’s no proof of that. It’s almost like plausible deniability because (1/2)

andreil has canon strengths and flaws that are irrefutable, so when they ship things like Jerejean kevjean that don’t interact they feel a license to make it “better” because they know better than Nora if that makes sense. And Kandrew and kevineil are pitched as being healthier than andreil, among fans who say they wish the kandreil draft was canon where Nora has said multiple times, even when she talks about how fun they were to write that k/a were “obsessive” (2/2)

Yeah I definitely think “fuck you Nora” can play into it, sort of like how for a while most marriage or “I love you” HC posts started or ended with “fuck you Nora”. 

I think andreil are such a unique relationship dynamic of two very “difficult and violent” people ending up together, so I understand why they also get called toxic and flawed a lot. Tbh I can’t really see Andrew or Neil with anyone else, I think they fit together well and what works and is healthy for them just won't work or be healthy for everyone else. 

I also agree in the plausible deniability aspect, sometimes I think these fans take these characters and names and general situations, and make them into OC’s and/or props to fulfill troupes. The nature of fan creation is to play around with canon.

I personally don’t think the average college boy would be emotionally prepared or equipped enough to be a healthy pairing for a recently escaped lifelong human trafficking and cult survivor who just narrowly survived. And I don’t think Kevin who held power over Jean in the nest at number 2 instead of 3 as well as Riko’s partner, would be healthy either. Kevin himself talks about how it was different for him than for Jean, it was worse for Jean since he was a “lower rank.” I think the idea Kevjean is better than Kevin and Thea comes partially from the belief that gay=better in fandom, and the ‘pair the spare’ mentality. 

I also personally think that both Kandrew and Daysten/Kevineil are not good fits either. I’ve talked about it before and explained why I think Kandrew is unhealthy and am not really interested in exploring it, but for Kevineil I personally think they… fight too much I guess. You get in arguments with your friends as well as partners, but the way they affect you and power works can be very different, and the type of arguments are also typically different. I think they're fine as friends, but I think they would need a lot more outside of canon growth and development to be a fit romantically. I don’t care what others want to ship or explore, I just personally don’t see much appeal with either dynamic. 

I think people who say “this would be healthier” are usually imagining their ideas and HC’s and version of the character rather than the canon one, as well as just… their personal idea of what is “healthier” and what a good relationship “looks like”.

Also you briefly mention Renesion as being depicted/perceived as “softer and healthier” too. From what I see of Renesion its very… just kinda there. Usually there isn't a lot of development or they're just sort of in the background of another fic. The Renee and Allison in canon would not pair well together imo either, I also mention this somewhere in an earlier ask as well. I'm all for wlw pairs and ships, and I've read like a decently long Renesion fic my friend @wishbonetea wrote called “The Gracekeepers” where they do actually have chemistry, but are growing differently than they do in canon. In canon Renee is a “bad person trying very hard to be a good person.” she’s anti-negative talk and avoids speaking ill of others or expressing negative or harsh opinions. Allison has recently escaped a stuffy rich people environment where all their words are cloaked and all compliments are backhanded and no one really says what they’re thinking, Allison’s personal growth from this is to let it out and say what she really thinks, who give a fuck if they think she's rude or unladylike, it's her feelings. Also Renee’s past is often just depicted as this cool thing rather than something very truamatizing that she struggles with, makes it hard for her to genuinely connect with others and be her ‘real self’, and Allison's on-again off-again boyfriend just died, and she was there the night it happened. I haven't seen any fics actually explore these topics, just kinda ship them since “pair the spare.” (if any of you know any fics that address this or focus on it lmk)

I'm not going to hold their chemistry to a higher standard than mlm ships tho, I've seen people ship almost all the male characters together in the tags but obviously don’t do as much content for the women, which is a shame because some of the fox ladies have interesting potential chemistry. Dan and Renee have a very interesting dynamic in the EC and Nora herself said if she were to ship the fox ladies it would be Dan with Renee. I personally have high standards for ‘shipping’ I guess, sometimes I vaguely think “oh this could be interesting” but rarely do I actively explore it. I'm a pretty canon focused consumer, I never watched supernatural thinking ‘dustiel’ or even picked up on the queer-baiting until much later. I don't care about shipping the way most fans seem to. I like to imagine Andrew and Neil meeting in their late 60’s or so, or even not meeting the other and being single and having fulfilling lives that way too, which is not a common way to ‘show affection’ to characters. 

I agree with you and think it comes down to plausible deniability and this urge to ‘defy Nora’–be all edgy to an author who stopped listening–as well as pair the spare and fandom culture of shipping at its core. Shipping is seen as a good/better treatment of the characters and “what they deserve” a lot.

[abirdonalilactree]

First gay ship I watched that actually became canon. (kinda toxic tho-)

Y'all remember the first time you saw your gay ship become canon? I suppose for many of you it was Supernatural. 

For me it was back in 2013 when the series finale of Rules of Engagement came out, which is pretty early if you are talking about gay stuff. Not only did we get a slowburn spanning over several seasons, it also ended in a gay wedding.

In this essay I will talk about why this ship is so important to me and why it also was toxic as feck.

The show is about two couples and their single friend, all at different stages in their relationships, deal with the complications of dating, commitment, and marriage. From season three on, there kinda is a slow burn until season seven ends with the two unmarried couples getting married as well.

What started as a horrible boss messing with his assistant turned into a surprising love story.

 I'm not sure why I came back to this series after so many years in the first place. Some of the jokes are quite offensive so here is a warning for that. But on the other hand, all episodes are up on YouTube for free soo… Right now, in the September of 2021 we have exactly 20 fics on Ao3 by amazing authors. We are a really small fandom. The show ended in 2013 but like three or four people are still here.

Let me introduce the main characters:

The married couple consists of Jeff and Audrey Bingham. Jeff has been a financial manager and husband of Audrey since 1995. He has a rather deadpan, cold and sardonic personality and sense of self, particularly when dealing with Russell and Adam, but he is not sadistic or unkind, thereby rendering these traits as merely ironic and biting humor. He loves sports, shuns anything that might resemble sensitivity and often views his marriage as a competition or war, refusing to let Audrey "win" the upper hand at anything.

Audrey is an editor at Indoor Living magazine before later resigning and the assertive, modern wife of Jeff. She tolerates her husband's insensitivity because she knows he is not malicious and will do whatever it takes to make the situation right once he realizes his mistake. As a couple, they both can be very condescending and manipulative towards each other, in order to gain the upper hand, and typically don't like to concede to the other that they were wrong.

Adam Rhodes, a sensitive and well-meaning, but extremely naive and super extremely stupid, co-worker of Russell and Timmy, and Jennifer's fiancé throughout the series until they are married in the series finale. He is a neighbor of Jeff and Audrey, looks up to Jeff, and often acts on Jeff's relationship advice -This usually results in making the situation worse for himself. Jennifer Morgan is the fiancée and eventual wife of Adam, who endures his faults because of his good looks. She is very self-conscious of him, and will often try to spare him from embarrassment.

Timir "Timmy" Patel was introduced in season 3 and became a season regular from season 4-7. He first appears when Russell hires him as his assistant.  Although he is fluent in seven languages and holds an MBA, Timmy is often forced to do menial work or to solve Russell's trivial problems which often annoys Timmy. While many of Russell's schemes disgust him, Timmy will often see them through so that he can enjoy Russell's deserved penalty. 

Russell Dunbar on the other hand is wealthy, only due to his trust fund, which he uses to impress and seduce women. He is presented as a seedy and sleazy man who only cares about how many women he can get. However, it is shown that he has a softer side. His relationships within the group are seemingly conflicted, many of the group dislike his behaviour and mock him, as they do everyone else, but it seems that he expresses just as much distaste for them as he does not choose to invite them places unless he needs them to. Through Timmy, he is analysed by a psychiatrist to have sociopathic tendencies which explains his destructive behaviour.

He is also self absorbed and immature.

...But the thing is sometimes he isn’t.

While all three relationships show a lot of signs of toxicity, Timmy and Russell’s relationship is certainly the most destructive one. Which is mostly Russell’s fault.

But let me show you.

From a psychological point of view, their relationship ticks most of the boxes of a toxic relationship.

Toxic communication

Instead of treating each other with kindness, most of their conversations are filled with sarcasm, criticism, or overt hostility. Yet sometimes kindness is in fact seeking through.

Jealousy

There is so, so much jealousy going on. Russell really does everything to not allow Timmy to get together with a woman. Although only as the show goes on, it becomes clear that Russell is jealous because he has fallen for Timmy.

Controlling behaviors

Russell is questioning where Timmy is all the time or becoming overly upset when he doesn’t immediately answer texts are both signs of controlling behavior, which can contribute to toxicity in a relationship. And it gets so much worse than that. But more to that later.

Resentment

Yes.

Dishonesty

Yes. ALL the time.

Patterns of disrespect

Being chronically late, casually “forgetting” events, and other behaviors that show disrespect for each other's time are a red flag. This makes it red flag number six. 

Constant stress

A normal amount of tension runs through every relationship, but finding oneself constantly on edge is an indicator that something’s off. Yet another red flag.

This ongoing stress can take a toll on the physical and emotional health of a person. Which is one hundred percent happening.

Ignoring needs

Going along with whatever one partner wants to do, even when it goes against the wishes or comfort level of the other one. From his first episode in the show on, Timmy is forced to do absurd stuff he doesn’t want to do and honestly no one should do for their boss.

Lost relationships

Stopping to spend time with friends and family, either to avoid conflict with a partner or to get around having to explain what’s happening in the relationship.

Hoping for change

One might stay in a relationship because they see the other person’s potential or think that if they just change themselves and their actions, their partner will change as well. And it’s the little moments when Russell shows for only moments the tiniest bit of being a good person that make Timmy stay with him.

Walking on eggshells

One worries that by bringing up problems, they’ll provoke extreme tension, so they become conflict avoidant and keep any issues to themselves.

Lack of support however is arguably not always one of their problems. But we’ll come back to that.

And still, they share their sweet moments.

The following clip, made by CBS itself shows really well how it is for them to work with each other.

https://youtu.be/GfPI3HgMYoI

And then there is character development. Here the group of friends talks about Jeff lying to his wife about another friends bachelor party because he doesn’t want to spend time with her aunt.

https://youtu.be/LQPIFcrBltQ

Russell doesn't want to get married, clearly. This clip also conveys pretty well how horrible those people are. 

There is this tension and the gay jokes. This clip also shows really well how manipulative Russell -tries- to be.

https://youtu.be/XkdycXzX4ag

And then there are moments like these: In season 6 Timmy wanted to impress a woman who only wants to date singers so Russell teaches him how to play the guitar with the ulterior motive of Timmy embarrassing himself in front of the whole company. This idea backfires when Russell realises that he can’t watch Timmy suffer like that and he joins on stage and they start this duet that’s like super gay.

https://youtu.be/UH3P_LfBBQo

To be with you by Mr Big is an interesting choice of song. -Not only because it’s quite romantic but also because the lyrics seem to be surprisingly fitting at second glance.

Let’s analyze it because Music is an important aspect.

“One of the great unrequited love songs, "To Be With You" has a true story behind it. Mr. Big lead singer Eric Martin wrote the song when he was still a teenager - 16 or 17 in his estimation. The girl was Patricia Reynolds, and he had it bad for her.

"We were really, really good friends," Martin said in a Songfacts interview. "I was totally enamored with this woman. She was beautiful. Smart. I mean, brains, beauty, break down the walls, made me crawl on my belly like a reptile!

I just loved this woman, but she just wanted to be my friend. She'd have tons of boyfriends, and maybe she misconstrued promiscuity for love. But I wanted to be the knight in shining armor. That's what I was, a knight in shining armor. But basically, I didn't get my feet wet. I wrote it about how I would have done anything to just be more than a friend and a confidante."”

-https://www.songfacts.com/facts/mr-big/to-be-with-you

So much to the history of the song. Do you see the parallels? Do you see them? Do you?

Anyway. When Russell joins Timmy on the stage, he starts with the lines:

Build up your confidence

So you can be on top for once

Wake up, who cares about

Little boys that talk too much

I think this has to be taken literally. Not sure how much I should go into detail here. 

This however brings us back to the point of support from our list earlier.

I've seen it all go down

The game of love was all rained out

So come on baby, come on over

Let me be the one to hold you

I'm the one who wants to be with you (I'm the one, yeah)

Deep inside I hope you feel it too (feel it too)

Waited on a line of greens and blues (waited on a line yeah)

Just to be the next to be with you

That’s kinda Gay.

There are jokes all over the seasons that Timmy and Russell are gay but it becomes most clear that Russell is in love with Timmy, in the last season, when Timmy leaves to go on vacation and Russell misses him so much that he gets a girlfriend and turns her into a copy of Timmy.

Things get worse when Timmy finds out that Russell completely lost his marbles and chipped him to always know his whereabouts. This finally makes Timmy leave the company and get a new job where he finally gets treated with respect. It is shown how they miss each other despite everything. But then Timmy loses his work Visa which turns out to be completely Russell’s fault.

Right after Jenn and Adam marry in the last episode, Russell proposes to Timmy so he can stay in America but it becomes clear that there is more than his conscience that made him do this.

Russell turning his girlfriend into Timmy. (There is no heterosexual explanation for this):

https://youtu.be/sX1xTybc6vI

Timmy finding out how much Russell really stalks him. (like. he is totally in love with him):

https://youtu.be/jPWKdwpXCLU

Their Wedding (seems pretty gay to me):

https://youtu.be/Ymp-zaTmnD8

 You need to see the whole show as it is. A bunch of horrible people that are made fun of.

Furthermore you could argue that they don’t actually kiss. But maybe marriage is even more meaningful. 

I suppose that since we get so little representation, we like to clasp onto everything we can get. Because when I watched this I was too young to understand how offensive the shit they talk about really is. But after all it meant a lot to my gay little heart.

So many years later I gotta say that it needs to be said that it’s a toxic relationship after all. Don’t try it at home. Don’t try it with your boss or assisstant.

In the end it’s a green card marriage. But there is this whole arch of Russell falling in love with Timmy. Most clearly in the last three episodes but also starting a lot earlier. It’s a slow burn after all. It’s never said out loud but we got two bisexual characters right there.

Now I’m asking around my friends what their first gay ship was that became canon. The results really show that we don’t get enough representation in series. Just wow.

Hannigram became canon. kinda. They jumped off a cliff together instead of kissing. That one dude from supernatural you guys keep talking about got sent to super gay hell after confessing.

What I want to say is I just wanna see a healthy gay ship become canon some day.

Thanks for reading!

...So what was your first gay ship that became canon?