#crowley meta

[actual-changeling]

Crowley did not want the holy water as a suicide pill in 1862, but I believe he not not wanted it as one

He gets pulled down to hell in 1827 and it's not just a slap on the wrist for something minor, he did a very good deed—that didn't just cost them one soul, it has ripple effects! It cost them dozens if not more, depending on what Elspeth did with her life.

Additionally, we do not know how long he stayed in hell. "Quite some time" is not a very exact measurement, and I know there are theories that it wasn't long at all, but that's pure speculation.

Canonically, the next time we see him is in 1862, so assuming he took some time to adjust to the new period, he could have come back as late as 1861. It is entirely possible—and in my opinion very likely—that he spent over thirty years being tortured in hell.

By "torture" I do mean actual torture, btw, the same kind hell threatens him with. In the scriptbook, there's a deleted monologue Dagon has while Crowley is getting rejected (again).

They save the wonderful line "Because no matter what agonies the damned are suffering, Crowley, you will have it worse. We SEE how hell tortures the damned, Furfur literally plays it to us like a corporate powerpoint, so whatever they did to him after '27 was bad.

Crowley looks tired, exhausted, almost sick. He is paranoid, in mental and/or physical pain, he looks like he has lost weight, and we barely see him move at all.

Now compare to the Crowley we saw in Edinburgh. Carefree, happy, taking Aziraphale on dates and going on fun little adventures, getting drunk on laudanum, smiling, jumping around—this is the most relaxed we have seen him since around 1601.

After this, we never see him like that again. That bouncy, curly-haired demon is gone, and hell is responsible; they broke him. I know that look on his face in '62, I saw it every day in the mirror for twenty years, which were (also honestly quite literally) torturous.

Crowley asked for the holy water as insurance, he had probably already come up with several contingency plans involving.

What would happen if they still got him though? What if he erased a demon or two and then hell dragged him back down? I am 100% certain that Dagon would have made good on the promise they give him later. If it had come down to killing himself with holy water or being tortured for all eternity, he would have chosen death without hesitation.

Better dead than in hell.

[tonydaddingham]

oh my god but crowley didn't fully believe that whatever he was idly toying with confessing at the ritz was gonna work, did he? he impatiently looked at his watch, flumped into the chair after stress-tidying the shop - not because the metatron had dragged aziraphale away, but because when aziraphale eventually comes back, and crowley manages to ferry him off to the ritz, crowley wasn't yet sure whether he should say the unspoken thing. he was still weighing up the idea, was debating whether or not he should. because here's the thing - crowley hadn't cottoned on.

he hadn't worked out what the dance meant. the lingering touches. the longing glances that he thought he might have caught in the corner of his eye, but couldnt be sure. maggie and nina came to talk to him, and he was nonchalant and dismissive and brushed off what they were saying because crowley doesn't want his vulnerability seen. he wasn't even sure that a confession would actually work - so don't encourage him, because what if aziraphale doesn't feel the same way? what if giving voice to it is still too fast?

but they seem to think that aziraphale feels some kind of way about him... so maybe, actually, he should? he should say something, he should tell aziraphale how he feels, oh god he should take this spark of bravery and fan it into an inferno... because that glimmer of hope, buried within, that aziraphale won't reject him is burning a little brighter.

so he decided to take the leap, to confess then and there, because that little flicker of courage is so delicate, and it has to be coaxed into a flame, and if he doesnt do it now, he won't ever feel he can. "if i don't start talking now, i won't ever start talking". he wasn't set on confessing at the ritz, only considering that if anything was going to be said it should happen there. he went out to the bentley, after handing maggie and nina back to their reality, to put Their Song on the deck - it might help! - and then came back nervous and excited and impatient and terrified. but the girls said that they never say what they're really thinking, and what crowley's thinking is that he ought to say something, but doesn't know if he should.

but crowley took the leap, decided to just do it whilst he's still got a grasp on that conviction and bravery. and is smacked back with the shock and repulsion of being offered restoration, the heartbreak that aziraphale does reciprocate what he does, but only if he's an angel again. only if he goes back. only if only if only if. he doesn't hear what aziraphale actually means, doesnt think about what aziraphale is actually trying to say to him - that aziraphale does want him, does love him, does want to be with him, just as he is, but it can only happen if they're safe, working from the inside to change things so they can be safe - because all he can think is that maybe he shouldn't have said anything at all. took the leap, and found out all over again what it is to fall.

[idliketobeatree]

it's been three months and I still haven't processed the Bentley playing Good Old-Fashioned Lover Boy at Crowley (when I'm not with you, think of you always) as he drove (I miss you) back (just take me back to yours, that will be fine) to Aziraphale (love you) with a really sincere apology in mind (say the word, your wish is my command). barely a few seconds of normal driving in central London, squeezed in a plot point of "oh shit, extreme sanctions" and their meetup. easy to overlook. unless? it's literally top 5 of Their Queen Love Songs. in any context other than the sheer panic Crowley was experiencing I would take this scene to my grave as peak romanticism, because we know Bentley is an extension of Crowley's mind, and it feels like it tries to comfort him in that moment? (everything's all right, just hold on tight) Recognizing the crushing, overwhelming, all-encompassing love that Crowley is feeling, and boiling it down to simply being suave and charming, casual, like he so often pretends to be (I learned my passion in the good old-fashioned school of loverboys).

it's just the stuff of fanfics, but given to you in the typical Neil Gaiman fashion of subverting expectations, while also allowing for, well, gently playing on your heartstrings. I love it, I love that we got that, bless

[soleilpirate]

Crowley was a mighty archangel

OK I've written some of this elsewhere, and I know there are metas exploring this idea. I'm not trying to steal anyone's ideas just putting everything I can in one place. Gonna tag better metaists than me to assist, so....

@vidavalor @melbatron5000 @ao3cassandraic also anyone else that reads/writes meta please

So far I've got:

He is appointed by God to create significant parts of the universe and says "Let there be light" which is Biblically attributed to God.

He is chosen to do rather significant tasks for Hell. Like tempting Eve, delivering the Antichrist, and tempting Jesus in the wilderness.

He has an ornate Throne in his otherwise minimalist flat. Shout out to whoever wrote that one, I cannot recall. I'm sorry.

He Fell with one of his Celestial tools still in his hand.

He can stop Time!? (Said in the same voice as "the Time Knife!?)

He and Beelzebub are totally comfortable chilling together, side by side on horned Thrones, and Crowley not only chats easily with BEELZEBUB. PRINCE OF HELL, but also does this with his bare eyes out and unbothered. I cannot stress enough. Un. Bothered.

"That was just something we joked about to scare the cherubs." We?" 👀 We as in, me and Beez, second only to Satan? We.

He opened a Heavenly locked file with ease, set it to display, camera cut to him just as Gabriel said "only first order archangel.."

Archangel Saraquiel recognized him, named their connection, seemed almost pleased to see him.

The other archangels followed him the the Elevator when he said "Come on!"

Crowley recognized the Metatron when others couldn't AND returned Metatron's stink eye with a glare of his own!

He has a very vivid imagination, and he is an optimist at heart.

[ineffableaddiction]

When Crowley thought he lost Aziraphale when the bookshop was on fire, he was distraught. Gutted. Crying. Lost. Angry.

^ In this scene, when Cowley looks toward the camera, you see tears.

When Aziraphale chose to go to heaven, Crowley was devastated, but not distraught. He knows this is temporary, and he hasn’t lost Aziraphale.

[dee-morris]

Finally We're Going to Talk About Crowley

I really do love them equally but you wouldn't know it from my posting history because I constantly feel the need to ride to Aziraphale's defense every other week.

Anyway we talk incessantly about Aziraphale's behavior in the last scenes of season two for obvious reasons, but I think Crowley also needs some deconstructing. His behavior is less shocking; he appears to be reacting to Aziraphale more than taking the reins of the narrative himself. But there are a few key moments I want to look at more closely.

The first thing I thought of was how nonchalant he appeared to be about his only friend going off to have a private conversation with a powerful angel who clearly loathes the sight of him. "Go ahead, the day can't get any weirder" YES IT CAN YES IT CAN but anyway, I was deeply mistaken.

The second they're out of sight he jumps to his feet and stares out the window after them, then he starts to pace around the bookshop. He stops dead when he sees Muriel and goes back to nonchalant mode. "They'll be back soon."

(In the tone, imo, of a parent waiting for their kid to come back from a date and it's past curfew and they're not answering their cell.)

And then--he immediately tries to get rid of Muriel. Who doesn't want to leave, bc "The Metatron might need me!" And you can see the "oh my sweet summer child" expression cross Crowley's face. He's still his usual casual demonic No Fucks Given self on the outside, but he doubles down on getting Muriel out of the shop.

I don't want to spit in anyone's crepes with this next bit, but I don't think the "us time" portion of this conversation was intended to be romantic. I hypothesize that Crowley had just about made up his mind to have an honest conversation with Aziraphale about his Fall and whatever tf he's got going on with the Metabitch. And the "extremely alcoholic breakfast" was what he needed to get through the conversation.

I'm wandering into the realm of speculation at this point, but I think my hypotheses are based on canon events. Crowley does not talk about his Fall with Aziraphale and discourages any mention of his angel identity. That could just be a trauma response, but you don't see the same reticence when it comes up in conversation with Beelz or Muriel or even Jim. I think he's been protecting Aziraphale from something all this time, maybe for his own safety or maybe because he doesn't want Azi to lose faith in heaven/God. The way he tries to send Muriel away makes me think it's a physical safety thing.

But then Metacunt shows up in the flesh and Crowley goes, Yeah it's time to have The Talk.

So then what changed?

This next extrapolation is a bit tenuous so feel free to disagree, but I don't think Crowley was as lost in the woods as he seemed to be. Crowley is impulsive and emotional, but he's not stupid. My friend leaves with the most dangerous angel I know and comes back acting weird. We are not getting that breakfast at the Ritz, are we?

I think the confession and the kiss were sincere, but I also think they had a purpose. I think he was trying to snap Aziraphale out of whatever was making him act like a marionette on crack. But, "It's too late. It's always too late."

[inhonoredglory]

Good Omens Season 3: Heaven and Hell dividing humanity; humanity as Leviathan; and Aziraphale locking the doors of Heaven and throwing away the key [A Meta]

(This meta is long, but I swear there's some good stuff in here. It took me 2 months to get it together for these two longsuffering Anons. Thank you so much for asking me these very important questions.)

In preparation for answering two Asks above (and to aid my own predictions of Good Omens 3), I read and reviewed the Book of Revelation, W.B. Yeat’s iconic poem “The Second Coming,” Terry Pratchett’s Small Gods, Neil Gaiman’s deleted scene from American Gods (Shadow meeting Jesus in America), and Doctor Who showrunner Russell T Davies’ 2003 miniseries The Second Coming (starring Christopher Eccleston!). The first two are definitely going to be referenced in season 3, Davies’ show is one of the few stories dealing head-on with the coming of Christ, and Terry and Neil’s bibliographies are probably the biggest resources for how Season 3 will shake out thematically.

🕊 How Aziraphale Will Change Heaven

I think GO s3 is the season we see Aziraphale really come into his own, when we see him implement the moral vision he’s taken this long to coalesce, when all the pieces he and Crowley have put together are finally put on stage in a terrifying, beautiful display (all that righteous anger and conviction, merged with his kindness and empathy is going to be Something Else).

There’s an angel in the Book of Revelation who stands between the Earth and the Sea. This angel wears a rainbow halo and speaks with the voice of seven thunders, and yet John (the writer of Revelation) is told not to write down what this angel speaks. (Sounds like someone has hit on the Ineffable Plan?) If Neil and Terry were going to pick up an image from Revelation for Aziraphale, I really like this one, because it feels like an intermediary role (between two Sides), one that god dare not make public because it speaks an uncomfortable truth. And it’s about speaking and revealing knowledge, instead of fighting or destroying something.

Because even though we know Azi and Crowley will fight to stop the second End Times, fighting itself is not a theme Neil Gaiman or Terry Pratchett really champion. Instead of war, Aziraphale will oppose Heaven in all the little ways he and Crowley opposed it before: By enjoying human comforts (Azi will definitely bring food and trinkets to Heaven and send scrivener angels and seraphim alike to tour earth). By asking questions (Heaven’s new suggestion box). By telling stories about humanity and why it’s important to know who these humans are before anyone kills anybody (Azi was, after all, brought on board because of his human expertise).

Aziraphale will become what Crowley wanted to be before the Fall, but Azi’s got the benefit of thousands of years of knowledge, cunning, and intelligence about how both Heaven and humanity work. He knows Heaven’s weaknesses, he knows humanity’s strengths, he knows his own capabilities, and he knows where Heaven will turn a blind eye. He’s going to be such a bastard the likes of which we’ve never seen. And he’s going to drop truth bombs like there’s no tomorrow.

Season 2 brought back the book banter about “the lower you start, the more opportunities you have.”

Season 3 will bring back Aziraphale’s most badass book moment. This scene takes place after Azi possesses an American televangelist talking about the fire and brimstone of the End Times and the Rapture (the mass teleporting of all worthy believers to Heaven). Says Aziraphale,

Aziraphale is fed up with Heaven’s hypocrisy and he's scathing in his condemnation of both Heaven and Hell. Everyone will die and become collateral damage, no matter which side is doing the killing.

Sound familiar?

That's the arc Aziraphale is heading towards: that blazing conviction of Crowley's, spoken out loud and fearless and in spite of his eons of trauma. And Season 3 will see Aziraphale get to that place, where he gets to tell off Heaven, but not just in the privacy of the bookshop or the bandstand, but to their faces in Heaven's hallowed halls.

The demons and angels in Season 2 were much less icky and ethereal (respectively) from their appearances in Season 1. Because it's working towards a further humanization of both sides in Season 3. Because one of the biggest themes in s3 will be Aziraphale humanizing Heaven in all the little quaint ways he loves humanity. All in preparation for the endgame of Heaven and Hell not existing at all.

(Season 3 deep dive continues under the cut...)

Because angels and demons won’t be fought, but changed. Maybe not by much, but just enough to break the loyalty they have to a Great Plan no one understands. This is how both Neil’s American Gods and Terry’s Small Gods conclude, with the build-up to an incredible battle, and then for the human hero to step in and talk down the gods and armies into seeing sense and reason.

I don’t think Aziraphale himself will be that person. It might be a very human Jesus. Or (more likely) a random human being caught up in this craziness (maybe someone in Tadfield, per the working title of the second GO book: 668: The Neighbor of the Beast). But Aziraphale will be fundamental in changing the atmosphere of Heaven in the little ways Earth changed him.

🗝 Season 3 Themes: Morality and God

In the Job minisode, Aziraphale casually but boldly assumed that god didn’t want the goats and children to be killed. Because Aziraphale has a firm and dogged idea about what god should be. It’s his own personal morality, but he calls it god’s because he doesn’t want to imagine the symbol of ultimate goodness being anything other than what he Aziraphale himself feels to be true.

And I don’t think that’s a theme that Good Omens will deny for Aziraphale. Because it’s not really about how evil or good god is. It doesn’t matter what god thinks or is. god doesn’t answer questions, doesn’t deliver messages we can understand, doesn’t show up when needed. god is inscrutable, shifty, absent, “a Dealer who won’t tell you the rules, and who smiles all the time.”

What’s important is what humanity has done with god, what humanity has said about god, what they do in god’s name, what they interpret god to be. That’s the real danger.

And Aziraphale, in his profound goodness, will become the person he wants god to be. Because that’s the injunction we all have. To live up to the ideal we have made for ourselves: In many ways, that’s what god is.

Aziraphale is now in a privileged place that allows him to affect basically the entirety of Creation with that driving idealism. He will level the playing field in Heaven. I firmly believe Aziraphale will be the one to close the doors to the pearly gates and throw away the key.

So, like you asked Anon, will Aziraphale try to make Heaven better or stop the Second Coming? I think those are the same goal. Changing Heaven will fundamentally change how the Second Coming happens, because just like the End Times in Season 1, Heaven and Hell’s scheme will be turned on its head because the Chosen One refuses to follow the script.

The Second Coming will end, not with a bang, but a whimper, because everyone decides to turn in their guns and forget the whole thing.

⚔️ Heaven and Hell v. Humanity

But before that ending happens, I think there will be another threat the world has to face: the individuals who are so sure of their own righteousness that no amount of sense could stop them from destroying anyone who thinks differently. This is an important theme in both Neil and Terry’s works (see Vorbis, the Exquisitor in Small Gods, who tortured unbelievers for the Church), and I believe it will show up in the new season.

There's never been a true war that wasn't fought between two sets of people who were certain they were in the right. The really dangerous people believe they are doing whatever they are doing solely and only because it is without question the right thing to do. And that is what makes them dangerous. –Neil Gaiman, American Gods

Because it’s humanity who takes Faith and shapes it into Religion. We are the ones who created the Heaven we see in GO: cold, unfeeling, strict, judgmental. And I think Season 3 is going to address this fundamental belief of both Neil and Terry: that humans are just so damnably human (fundamentally innocent and stupid and wonderful) and yet there’s a few of us who will take things too far and think that Someone wants them to destroy everything in the Name of God. And in these changing contemporary political times (the passage of an old generation, still clinging to their old ways and growing more extreme by the minute *cough*Trump*cough*), the dangerous people become even more vocal and violent, like the frightening, monstrous creature in WB Yeats’ poem “The Second Coming,” a devastating scourge on the world born in the name of God:

Surely some revelation is at hand; Surely the Second Coming is at hand. […] A shape with lion body and the head of a man, A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun, […] And what rough beast, its hour come round at last, Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born? –WB Yeats, "The Second Coming"

That’s who I think the Metatron will team up with in the end, someone like Vorbis. Because we’ve already seen how petty and small Heaven and Hell is, especially in Season 2. Only the Metatron really carries some heft and foreboding. I believe he’ll team up with some extremist faction of humanity who wants to see the End of Days and divide the world into Yours and Mine, with Heaven taking a portion and Hell taking a third and calling it a day. Not a War, but a divvying out of souls. With no consent or permission on the part of humanity.

That’s what I think the zombie reference is all about. Like Gabriel said in 2x03:

Yes, we’re going to get zombies. And it’s going to be insane and funny and horrifying (and I think we’ll get to know one or two historical figures who pop back up to earth). But the thematic and fundamental metaphor of zombies is how they have no free will. They’re not alive, they have no souls, they have no choices. That’s what Heaven and Hell want humanity to be: To do away with the dance of choice and free will and divide humanity once and for all between both sides. That’s how Heaven and Hell team up against the human race.

🐳 Leviathan (Job 41:19) as Humanity

And that’s how I believe the Leviathan fits in, who is the subject of the quote from Muriel’s matchbox:

The Leviathan is a magnificent creature, and this passage goes on and on about how fearsome this being is:

Who can penetrate its double coat of armor? Who dares open the doors of its mouth, ringed about with fearsome teeth?… Nothing on earth is its equal—a creature without fear. It looks down on all that are haughty; it is king over all that are proud –Job 41:13b, 33-34

And yet why does god want to explain how amazing the Leviathan is? To show how god has control of it. God says,

Can you pull in Leviathan with a fishhook… Can you make a pet of it like a bird or put it on a leash for the young women in your house?… Can you fill its hide with harpoons… No one is fierce enough to rouse it. Who then is able to stand against me? –Job 41:1, 5, 7, 10

The reasoning is that because god created this dangerous and terrifying being, then god must be even more dangerous and terrifying. And if god can so easily abuse and humiliate this beautiful monster, then god must be worshipped and respected. (Yes, it’s as messed-up as it sounds.)

I can’t help but think of this Leviathan as a metaphor for humanity. A beautiful, ferocious being whose ownership and control is the focus of god’s attention and qualification for worship? Of the Leviathan, Job says: “Will traders barter for it? Will they divide it up among the merchants?” (Job 41:6). That’s how humanity is going to be treated in Season 3.

Because both God and Satan want to control humanity. They want to put their thumb on human souls and claim them for each side. But humanity doesn’t have to be so easily fooled, because we are more powerful than we realize. Our hearts and imaginations can forge a path of purpose and goodness without the entrapment of organized religion and fundamentalism. We, like Leviathan, are ferocious and angry and fed up with being treated like this. We can and will fight back.

🌟 Becoming Gods

Ultimately, we will shuffle off the need for Heaven and Hell (symbolized by the shutting down of both at the end of Season 3). We will lose the need to unquestionably defer to a Being who plays dice with our lives. I’m reminded of the opening passage to Terry’s Small Gods:

The lowly tortoise will learn to be the eagle; humanity will learn to be like god. Because we are as powerful as god, since we created god. Adam Young pointed out that having a god figure to solve all our problems doesn’t make humanity any more responsible for the evil things we’ve done. We need to learn that we are all we’ve got, and we have to answer for the shit we’ve done to each other and to the world.

I like how Russell T Davies put it in his show The Second Coming, where Jesus comes down again in the body of ordinary human Steven Baxter and tells humanity:

You are becoming gods. There's a new master of creation, and it's you! Unraveled DNA, and at the same time you're cultivating bacteria strong enough to kill every living thing! Do you think you are ready for that much power? You lot? You lot? Cheeky bastards. You're running around science like kids with guns, creating a new world, while the world you've got is stinking…. If you want the position of god then take the responsibility. –Russell T Davies, The Second Coming

I legitimately think that’s how Jesus in Good Omens 3 will come down. In the body of a regular 30-something off-the-streets guy, who thinks the pomp and circumstance made about him is insane. And Aziraphale will be his minder, trying to tell him how the whole scheme is supposed to play out and giving him wise asides on how warped Heaven’s standards are and trying to tell him how to go about changing things for the better. (Jesus will be terribly confused, meanwhile; he just wants to go out for a pint and get on with his human life, none of this god business.)

🐍 Crowley’s Growth

There will be some big things at play in Season 3. I think Aziraphale will change how Heaven operates and close Heaven for good. I think Aziraphale will initially try to get Jesus on board with Azi’s own private mission of Goodness. I actually think Crowley will end up becoming Aziraphale’s “back channels” to Earth, and they’d exchange trite, bantering messages about the state of affairs from secret rendezvous points in America. (There was a whole thing about Jesus getting lost in Times Square, according to Neil Gaiman.)

I think Crowley will learn how to trust Aziraphale and learn that doing the right thing means being brave and selfless. He’ll realize that humanity is worth saving, even if it means dying. In fact, his depression at the start of Season 2 will probably only get worse after the loss of Aziraphale, and his altruism might get colored by the taint of suicidal recklessness, because he might as well go out for what he believes in, if what he wanted most in the world chose being selfless over being with him. (If Crowley’s character takes a suicidal turn like the Tenth Doctor after losing Rose, I’m gonna scream.)

This is how Aziraphale helps Crowley be brave in the finale of the Good Omens book. That’s what I think will happen in Good Omens 3:

Aziraphale here displays a gentleness and kindness that comes from a place of grounded knowledge and responsibility. He knows how much he and Crowley have in their own ways fucked up humanity too, and he knows that no matter what their own personal feelings, they each need to do something to defend the human species they've come to love so much.

Crowley is scared of risking everything to help save humanity, but with Aziraphale's encouragement and wisdom, he realizes that doing the right thing is the only option he can choose, no matter the risk to his own happiness and safety.

So I believe Crowley will learn to understand why Aziraphale chose to return to Heaven and fight in the trenches. Crowley will see it as a choice made to save, not just each other, but the world they love so much.

Ultimately, I think Crowley on earth will take on Aziraphale’s strongest qualities: being selfless and bold to protect humanity at costs, and connecting to humanity on a personal, individual level.

While Aziraphale in Heaven will become like Crowley: asking questions, sabotaging the System, and condemning Heaven with all the uncomfortable truths they need to hear.

[diamante-chan]

Hi, Good Omens fans! What are your thoughts on Crowley not remembering people from his prefall life, like FurFur, Saraqael and Metatron?

It could be he simply didn't want to remember that period for a long time so those people are lost to his memory by now, or maybe he just doesn't care to remember them, idk...

But it's still interesting that he is asked 3 times if he remembers angel/ex angel's name and nothing, while he easily remembers humans. All that in the same season the supreme archangel was about to get his memory wiped for his defection and hid it himself to protect it.

And I know Crowley talks about making nebulas and meeting Lucifer in season 1 but still. Could his "I met a lot of people" be just an excuse? 🤔 Idk. Food for thoughts. Lol

[aspiring-spellcaster]

I’ve been thinking about the first conversation Crowley and Aziraphale have “before the beginning”, specifically about how different Crowley already was from Aziraphale even as an angel…

When Aziraphale tells Crowley that the universe will all be “shut down” in about 6000 years we see that Crowley is shocked and disappointed by this information. (Side note: I wonder if Aziraphale feels partially responsible for Crowley’s fate since he was the one who told him about God’s plans in the first place which prompted Crowley to ask questions.)

Aziraphale then explains God’s plans for Earth but this just further upsets Crowley as he laments that the universe is not just some “fancy wallpaper” for humans to look at. Aziraphale is confused by his questions as though he’s never heard anyone disagree with God’s plans before (which he probably hasn’t).

As the conversation continues Aziraphale becomes visibly disturbed and flustered by Crowley’s ideas.

He even looks around to make sure no one has overheard them.

For some reason, Aziraphale seems to know something that Crowley doesn’t. He knows that questioning God and heaven are very bad ideas. Crowley however is wholly un afraid and does not heed Aziraphale’s warning.

He actually says “How much trouble can I get into just for asking a few questions?” And the look on Aziraphale’s face says it all.

Crowley really was so trusting almost to the point of naïveté. Not once did he consider the possibility that he would be punished for asking questions. I don’t know why this seems to be the case, perhaps to highlight how different present day Crowley is.

The comparison is truly heartbreaking. He and Aziraphale have now essentially switched roles.

Overall thoughts:

At first it would seem that Crowley was cast out of heaven because he lacked faith in God/heaven but I would argue the opposite. Crowley had so much faith in God that he trusted Them not to be angry at his questions. He trusted that God was decent enough to see that he only wanted to help. But God took that trust and crushed it. We’ve known since season one that Crowley feels betrayed by God, but that betrayal is made so much worse when we see how innocent Crowley was as an angel. An innocence that he can never get back.

[carrythatwayt]

Crowley was a universe designer and Aziraphale was a people designer. The suddenly-obvious implications of this are wrinkling my brain.

[very-normal-abt-this]

I dreamt of this alternative "Final 15" Confession/Ending: "How long have we been on this planet? For 6000 years. And in this universe even longer. You know me in a way that no other being ever has. The rise and fall...the before and the after….And despite that, you never rejected me. Somehow, You always saw through to the real me. No matter how much I tried to hide it, no matter how much I tried to push you away... You continued to seek me out, which both shocked and confused me, and ultimately made me love you. By some lucky (or ineffable) coincidence, we both ended up indefinitely assigned to Earth. And ever since that day on the wall, ever since you admitted to giving away your sword, I just knew…I knew that I needed to be a part of your life. And I needed you in mine.

So for the past 6000 years, it's always been you and me, alone together, the constants among the variables of mortal life. I could always rely on you, and you could always rely on me. We have always been a team…We were best friends, really. For most of our time here, we've been too scared of admitting that openly to anyone, including to ourselves. (Remember that one time, when you said that you don't even like me? LOL).

But… in the past few years we finally started to feel safe enough, we started to let our guard down bit by bit. We've been more honest about how we feel, and about....what we are. What we are to each other, I mean. Honestly, that's what's made the past few years the happiest of my entire existence. And… I would like to spend the rest of my existence with you always by my side, freely and openly. As I will be by yours.

I know you feel it just as much as I do - we are bound together, you and I, and we have been from the very beginning. I love you, Angel. Always have, always will.

Now…let's go have an extremely alcoholic breakfast at the Ritz, shall we? What do you say, Angel?"

And so they did. And after that, they had shared uncountable dinners, brunches, and breakfasts together. Together they were, Until the it was the end of all time. Until Death was the only Endless that had remained. Until the stars of a new universe were being born, twinkling shyly, millions of light years away. And as it all ended…So it all began. Again.

[actual-changeling]

It was actually rather hard to decide how to begin this meta post because there are essentially going to be two main parts: why Crowley does not actually avoid/run from his problems and why "going off" is not a bad thing regardless.

Then I wrote the first part and realised this is now 2.5k words long, so uhhhh I will grant part 2 its own post.

With that, welcome back to Alex's today-not-unhinged meta corner!

I am going to approach this topic from a psychological angle, which a lot of people have already done, but without explicitly mentioning it or going into depth. All my information comes from personal experience, research, my therapist, and my psychiatrist, just so you know I am not making shit up. I actually dug up some resources my therapist gave me a while ago.

Generally, there are four different fear/survival responses: fight, flight, freeze, and fawn. Most people have probably heard about fight and flight, since those two are usually the only ones that are mentioned/taught, so I will stick to explaining the other two.

"Fawning" refers to actively being submissive and subdued, both physically and emotionally. The goal is to appear non-threatening and to calm whoever is causing the fear response in the first place. It shows up as being overly agreeable, not having thoughts/opinions of your own and ignoring them if you do, your body language changing (e.g., making yourself smaller, taking up less space), and generally attempting to 'keep the peace' or reinstate it.

"Freezing" is pretty much exactly what it says on the tin—you freeze. It means slipping into a dissociative state, which disconnects you from your body, your emotions/mind, and/or the outside world. Usually, people stop being able to talk well or at all, they do not move, and if they do, it is on autopilot; you do not fight or flee, you simply exist until what is causing the fear response is over.

While dissociating, your brain is unable to form full memories—and depending on how heavily you are dissociating, it does not form any memories at all. 

Freezing as a response happens when fight, flight, and fawn aren't possible anymore, e.g., a child who has no internal mechanisms to deal with large amounts of fear because it's a child, so the only way to escape the pain and aggressor is by fleeing into your mind and shutting down.

Why am I telling you all this? Because most people tend to have one or two survival responses that dominate/they usually fall back on, and the same goes for Aziraphale and Crowley.

When faced with an outside problem and a lot of stress, Aziraphale's first instinct is to fawn, to placate the person, to diffuse the situation, to make sure everyone is agreeing, or, at the very least, submitting to authority figures or aggressors. It is what heaven teaches them—stick to the rules, don't ask questions, do what you are told. If fawning involves lying, he will do so, here the need for safety is stronger than his desire to be truthful and stick to his morals.

Unfortunately, the fact that this is his primary fear response is also the reason behind his extreme cognitive dissonance. How can you stick to the rules when you do not know what the rules ARE? So he is stuck trying to figure out what is "good" and what is "bad" so he can be a good angel and avoid doing anything that might be seen as bad or disobedient.

His secondary response to stress or fear is to fight—once it's clear that fawning won't work, he can and will switch over to being more direct and aggressive/less submissive. We see that happening when he gets discorporated in season 1 and needs to get back to earth, at the airbase, or when the bookshop gets attacked.

If I were to ask you what you think Crowley's primary fear response is, how would you respond?

Well, if you said "flight"—you're wrong, and I will explain why.

Flight is his secondary fear response, it is what he falls back on in absolute emergencies when everything is doomed and there's nothing he can do anymore.

Before that, though, he fights.

Even as an angel, he was already questioning the system, he was ready to go and tell God she was doing a terrible job, that her ideas were bad, that he wants to keep his stars and the universe— six thousand years are nothing! If you actively oppose existing rules and defy people's authority over you, fighting is the only option you have unless you plan on giving up or the response becomes too much to deal with.

Fear itself happens when you or someone/something you love is being threatened (whether that threat is real or simply perceived as such doesn't matter), plus there are a large number of more irrational fears.

Crowley's creations were threatened -> He goes against the rules, he wants to fight for them.

On the walls of Eden, he questions God and talks to an angel, his hereditary enemy, once again defying the rules, questioning them.

Job and his children were threatened -> He goes against orders to try and save them.

There is good reason to believe he went against God by saving some of the children from the flood.

He showed Jesus the kingdoms of the world—do we really think that was based on orders? No, it was once again Crowley not playing by the rules.

Wessex? He proposes the Arrangement, which is one gigantic "fuck you" in his fight against celestial rules. Everything after that goes back to Crowley knowing that their jobs suck and that they can cheat, fight the system by working together. In 1827, it gets him pulled to hell and punished, and yet he does not stop; he keeps fighting.

Crowley is the one who immediately tries to stop the apocalypse. Aziraphale needs to be talked into it, needs to be convinced with selfish reasons and personal pleasure.

The reason why both heaven and hell absolutely loathe him is not because he is a runner; it's because he constantly and consistently defies them. He fights.

In season two, he immediately tries to deal with the Gabriel problem while Aziraphale is standing behind him and saying "I don't know" to all of his questions. Taking him somewhere so they can figure shit out in peace is not 'running'—it's smart. Sure, it's far from ideal, but we see what keeping him in the bookshop brought them, don't we? The hiding miracle is what tipped heaven and hell off in the first place.

Aziraphale goes to Edinburgh based on a hunch, but once again—did that help? Did his journalist roleplay trip actually provide vital information that solved a single puzzle piece of that mess? No. Finding out that Gabriel was at that pub with some mystery person was a nice fact to know, but that's it.

During the ball, Crowley is scared, vigilant, prowling around the shop, checking windows, telling Aziraphale to "stop this charade" so they can figure out what to do. Aziraphale, in that moment, was already convinced that sticking to the rules would save them—a heavenly embassy on a technicality, surely the group of fallen angels who got booted due to not following heaven's rules will respect that.

Crowley goes to heaven, which is once again him actively looking for a solution, while Aziraphale also falls back on fighting because fawning is not going to do shit.

There are three times during which Crowley suggests fleeing—which is his secondary fear response—but those are exceptions. Let's have a look at them.

The first one is at the bandstand, the evening before the Apocalypse, and since Aziraphale is lying to him, the situation seems hopeless to him. Yet he is still having his 'agents' look for him, is still fighting.

Do you know why he even suggests running? He is about to leave when Aziraphale calls him back with "there isn't anywhere to go," and now allow me to insert the following passage from the scriptbook.

Crowley looks back. He looks at Aziraphale. Above them, a beautiful starry sky. And Crowley softens.

"Big universe. Even if this all ends up in a puddle of burning goo, we could go off together."

The sentence in the show is slightly different, but they have one thing in common: If.

IF the world ends, we can still leave and be together. IF.

Crowley is NOT saying "let's leave", he is presenting Aziraphale with a contingency plan in case stopping the Apocalypse does not work. He is NOT running, he isn't even SUGGESTING to run.

It's a "if the world ends, we can be together. We don't need to be with hell or heaven; we can be in the stars," because remember what the end of the world would mean? Eternal torture for Crowley while Aziraphale bores himself to death in heaven.

The next time he suggests it again—when he stops Aziraphale on the street—several things have happened.

First, he did not leave. If he truly wanted to flee, he would have by now, but he didn't. He sits in a cinema waiting for the end: "Out of time. Out of hope," as Neil puts it. Then Hastur and Ligur show up on screen and tell him, 'You're dead meat, Crowley. You're bloody history. […] We're coming to collect you'.

We all know that means "eternal torture in hell," but if you're not convinced for some reason, have another snippet from the script book that did not make it into the show.

Dagon is speaking from the Bentley's radio while he drives towards the bookshop, saying that something has gone wrong and they're sure he has a 'perfectly reasonable explanation' for it. Once he gets out of the car, however, Dagon still keeps going and says the following:.

"Your explanation, and the circumstances that will accompany it, will provide a source of entertainment for all the damned of hell, Crowley. Because no matter what agonies the damned are suffering, Crowley, you will have it worse."

Crowley already knows that. He has been punished by them before, heard, seen, lived torture, there is no doubt as to what will happen should they catch him. So he does what any person with a single fucking brain cell would do—he tries to get his loved one and FLEE.

Flight is the best response in this situation, and if you need me to explain why, then honestly, I cannot help you anymore. I won't go into detail about Aziraphale's response, but, tl;dr, it was shitty and incredibly hurtful, go figure.

Now, let's get to situation number 3, which is his speech during the final fifteen. We do not have an official script for that, but someone did make transcriptions for all episodes; you can find them here. Additionally, I will copy some of what I already said in a different meta post.

Crowley, stuck in his trauma-induced hypervigilance and paranoia, suggests putting as much distance between them and the problem as possible. I think it is interesting that in ep1 he wants to get Gabriel away from them, while at the end of the season, he is ready to get them away from the problem.

So far, I have never seen anyone mention that change! And it’s important! The entire season, it is hammered into our heads how much they love being on earth. It is THEIR bookshop and THEIR car and THEIR life.

Crowley wants to protect that home, and Gabriel is a threat to it, a threat to both of them, their life, the bookshop—everything. He does not want to leave, he wants his peace and angel in one place.

Yet by allowing Gabriel to stay, Aziraphale destroyed the sense of comfort and safety Crowley had slowly developed over the last few decades. Heaven nipping down every now and then to check in with Aziraphale is very different from him sheltering the Supreme Archangel who is running from ‘something terrible’ without even asking if he’s alright with that.

Aziraphale calls it their bookshop, but he fundamentally still sees it as his space to govern and Crowley as a guest; he even calls it a 'heavenly embassy'.

After another horrible week and having his previously safe space violated by several different times and beings, Crowley is back to where he was before—without a home. That fragile existence broke apart, so he is standing in the heap of shards and telling Aziraphale 'I don’t feel safe here anymore, let’s leave’.

He lost his safe space, but he still has his safe person, his best and only friend, the person he loves. I doubt he cares where exactly they go as long as they’re together and it’s safe.

Returning to heaven—it is the one place Crowley cannot follow him to. It’s literally the worst option, he can’t go back, he won’t go back. So he invokes the bookshop again, if you don’t want to stay for me, stay for the bookshop, your books, your corner of existence that I thought we had carved out for ourselves.

There is a common error that people make regarding the timeline, which is assuming that during this conversation they are already aware of the impending apocalypse—but they aren't. Aziraphale himself has no clue, and while Crowley saw the conversation and trial, he does NOT know when it will happen. For all he knows, it could be tomorrow, could be in a thousand years, and, even if he had been given a date, I doubt they laid out all the details and how to stop it.

Considering that his original plan was "get drunk at the Ritz and then have us time," I don't think he knew literally anything about how or when to stop it. So no, Crowley does NOT suggest running away from earth and leaving it to die.

All he wants is some bloody peace and quiet where no demons, angels, or power-hungry floating heads can interrupt them. A space that is safe and theirs. There are also zero mentions of where he wants them to go; he is not talking about the stars or the universe. He wants to get away from where they currently are because heaven and hell show up uninvited whenever they please.

If your boss and ex-boss constantly kicked down your front door and stated their wish to torture you, would you stay there or would you move? Yeah.

This post got very long, but it was long overdue.

I am tired of seeing people call Crowley a callous coward who always runs away from his problems when he is the literal opposite. You take three sentences said under exceptional circumstances and apply them to Crowley as a whole, when it is nothing but his last ditch effort to keep himself and Aziraphale safe.

One last thing: If you come onto my post and start aggressively arguing about this, I will block you. Genuine discussions and questions are always welcome, being a dick is not, and I also simply cannot handle some of the rhetoric people in this fandom perpetuate because it's very triggering.

Make your own post, don't do it on mine.

[tonydaddingham]

the bit that gets me is "you can't leave this bookshop" as if crowley hadn't asked aziraphale to run away with him on two three occasions, to leave the bookshop, on crowley's terms doing what crowley believes to be the right thing

i get it he means 'the bookshop' as a metaphor for him, for leaving crowley, because there's no way crowley is ever going back to heaven and aziraphale was naive to even think he would

but the resolute way he refuses to hear aziraphale wanting to be with him, but this time on aziraphale's terms, doing what aziraphale believes to be the right thing, he immediately takes that as rejection and rejects aziraphale in kind

sometimes i don't think crowley realises that - possibly through no fault of his own - he's actually not as different from heaven as he might like to think he is

[idliketobeatree]

one of my pet peeves in fics is when crowley is just unnecessarily rude to the customer service. all headcanons aside, where did that come from? he would never inconvenience people already struggling within an exploitative system, and who have to deal with things akin to hell on earth

you think the guy who's argued that poverty is not making you a noble person would be sticking his leg out for the waiter to trip over? the same guy who drank literal poison and risked punishment, so the poor girl didn't kill herself? persuading aziraphale to give her the means to live? or, going by the book, the guy who thinks early morning is an excellent time to drive through the city, because it's quieter and the people who start work this early generally do more meaningful jobs? this guy??

he's a bit straight-forward and scowly, but he has client manners. if anything, he'd leave an amazing tip. wrong order at rush hour and the manager's being awful? let's curse them. heck, let's mess up the google reviews, so the customers feel the need to leave 1 star only and the whole place closes down. then he'd arrange better job offers in the neighboorhood for the remaining staff. crowley's got you. i absolutely refuse to believe otherwise.

[welpitty]

no because do it again

crowley knows aziraphale's moods by heart. all of them.

imagine him then. "do it again" "please let me understand"

he thought azi could never understand the love he gave.

he thought azi could never understand

meanwhile aziraphale was internally pleading him to wait just as he had done for years on end. begging. but once again, a misunderstanding. his words to crowley killed the poor demon.

imagine aziraphale then. pleading to heaven someone to do it again. pressing his fingers to his lips in a vain attempt to recreate it.

to re-create the kiss

these lovelorn fools think the other hates them while they are yearning so much it kills me inside.

[honeybeebabeblr]

Crowley’s peaceful precious existence doesn’t exist.

He wants to protect his status quo because it’s more desirable than what he’s been dealing with in the past. But it’s not ideal. It’s not what he really wants ( he probably thinks he doesn’t deserve what he really wants).

A fundamental part of aziraphale and crowley’s disagreement is Crowley thinks what they have is good enough because it’s better than it was and aziraphale sees it can be better. Aziraphale is an idealist, which can get him to be too blind to a lot of things, but it also gives him the fortitude to stubborn his way through things when he thinks he knows the right way, even if he hurts himself in the process. (Insert Pokémon joke more clever person than I comes up with)

You CANNOT tell me crowley enjoys living in his car. Hauling his plants around ( he’s not gonna dump them like SHE dumped him, even when he’s disappointed in them). Sleeping all cramped up. Having Shax and who knows what other demons just pop in when they want.

And speaking of shax- it seems like heaven has left aziraphale alone until Jim-gabe trundles up (with his box with his brains in a fly and the book of life he stole no I’m not letting go of that theory) but shax is up crowley’s ass. She’s in the Bentley, she’s calling him, they’re meeting up in places. Wow, so peaceful and relaxing, Crowley, amirite?

And he damn well isn’t going to take a rank-up in hell to give Beelzebub info about Gabriel no matter how weird they get about it.

He’s depressed, perhaps the immortal version of a midlife crisis (what’s the point, blah blah blah ) and yet you see all that life, all the bits of him he’s stuffed down because he thinks he doesn’t get to be that anymore escaping bit by bit. He’s gentle with Muriel, he’s conflicted with Gabriel to extremes almost, he’s giving space to humans, he’s indulgent to aziraphale’s whims until he realizes aziraphale has gone completely off into lala land (aziraphale’s version of dealing with his own trauma a whole other post).

And now this is my own conjecture, but he’s also having to deal with stuff from his past he’s been trying to box up, like rank and class and ability and purpose. I mean, it’s a bit embarrassing to think about stuff you’ve done years ago you might not do now. Angel!crowley is a bit single minded and vain. Angel!crowley was clearly high ranked and trusted with a lot of responsibility and power. Angel!crowley bids some lower angel over to be a freaking easel and blows-off that angels introduction in order to soak in the glory of his creation. Who knows what else he was like? All the other angels right now are very much aware of rank; Maybe he was too.

And maybe demon!crowley is wiser and more aware and is a bit embarrassed of what a pompous ass he was. But instead of forgiving himself, he’s just going to punish himself.

Traumatized people can sometimes step in and punish themselves when the outside source is absent. Crowley tells aziraphale he’s a demon, he lies, he’s a demon he’s not nice he’s a demon he’s evil - so aziraphale is repeating this to him even though it’s not what aziraphale believes. (And people get mad at aziraphale for it, but he’s doing what Crowley seems to want him to do because his own trauma dictates he try and please everyone) .

It can’t get any better for Crowley right now, in his mind. All of us vs all of them is looming but it’s not right now. (But it is) aziraphale and he can hang out in his shop and get food and just be right now(he just needs to make sure all these threads of threats against them are ignored) and yeah, crowley’s inconvenienced and uncomfortable but like he deserves that, it’s aziraphale’s comfort that’s important right now (never mind that if he actually said that sentence aloud he’d get the equivalent of a wtf-Crowley glare from aziraphale). Aziraphale has all these places and people and things and hobbies and so it’s nice he deigns to spend time with a demon (doesn’t even occur to him aziraphale thinks he’s the lucky one the amazing so-much-better-than-me Crowley picked).

Crowley has his hands covering his ears and is going lalalalalalalalalaICANTHEARYOU because even with all the bullshit going on, he’s mostly content. And he doesn’t dare think he could have or even deserve more happiness. He needs to accept all the love aziraphale wants to give him. Accept that he still is a bit of ‘that angel’ inside instead of shoving it down into a box with a weak lock, accept others out there actually do care about him. Accept it’s okay for him to care for things.

And ultimately, he has to accept he cannot keep running from the rotten core of heaven and hell and face it and root it out in order to really have his peaceful existence. And he’s going to have to make peace wnd find acceptances with his present and past selves to do so. I cannot wait for his journey.