#i love marika for many reasons

[delsinsfire]

drawing hair is therapy to me

[prismatic-starstuff]

miquella get behind me.

[blasphemousclaw]

WHO IS THIS SAULTRY LITTLE BINCH

ok this is my extremely unpolished breakdown of MESSMER THE IMPALER from the shadow of the erdtree trailer

The first thing that stands out about this dude is that he’s wearing EVERY possible symbol of treason against the Erdtree: SNAKES and FLAME

Messmer has snakes on his sigil, helm, and 2 snake friends who have dragon wings. Volcano Manor is known for its statues of winged serpents, but the wings are feathered, not dragonlike. these snakes are bright red-orange and are very unlike the Great Serpent we all know and love, who has a heavier build and is blue-grey in color. 

Regarding snakes as symbolism, the Duelist Helm description reads,

“Bronze helm decorated with innumerable snakes. Worn by gladiators who were driven from the colosseum. The wearer becomes a slightly easier target for foes. The snake is viewed as a traitor to the Erdtree, and the audience delighted in seeing these bronze effigies beaten and battered.”

We can bet that whoever is associating themselves with snakes is a confirmed Erdtree hater (Rykard, hello!!!) or perhaps, this dude could even be part of the reason why snakes are considered traitorous in the first place?

In addition to us seeing Messmer wield fire, this line from the trailer (which I think is spoken about Messmer but not by Messmer) implies that he’s known for his fire: “Those stripped of the Grace of Gold shall all meet death. In the embrace of Messmer’s flame.” 

It’s well known that flame is in many ways a taboo power; particularly the flame of the Fell God, which has the power to burn the Erdtree (the cardinal sin). Messmer’s fire is weird, in some ways it reminds me of the Rune of Death since it starts out black and turns red, but it’s also far too orange to simply be the Rune of Death’s power. 

There’s also this description of the DLC: “The Land of Shadow. A place obscured by the Erdtree. Where the goddess Marika first set foot. A land purged in an unsung battle. Set ablaze by Messmer’s flame.”

I’d guess that the Land of Shadow was the place of Marika’s first conquest, and perhaps Messmer either aided her in razing it or that’s just something he did later? 

so WHO is this dude????

for starters, his name is Messmer the Impaler — M like Marika! Melina, Malenia, Miquella, Mogh, and Morgott. seems to be a pattern...

He says in the trailer, “Mother, wouldst thou truly Lordship sanction, in one so bereft of light?” 

Whoever Messmer’s mother is, she is in a position to “sanction lordship” meaning to give official permission for a lordship to take place. that screams Marika — she is THE goddess, and is responsible for guiding Tarnished to becoming Elden Lord. I can’t think of anyone else who might be called Mother who is in such a position as to allow someone to ascend to the position of Lord. He's also sitting in the same type of throne that the demigods sat in that we see in Morgott's cutscene.

theres 2 ways to interpret this line: 

Messmer could referring to himself when he says this; as if he’s saying, would my mother truly allow me to become Lord even though I’m so dark and edgy?? in a kind of sarcastic way. the flames he produces start out black, and he’s covered himself symbols treasonous to the Erdtree. OR, he’s referring to us, the Tarnished, when he says this; as if he’s saying, would you really let a person with such little light inside them become lord, mother?? (rude!) I’d say we need more context to determine exactly what he means

ALSO, interestingly, his left eye is sealed shut… you know who else has their left eye sealed shut? THAT’S RIGHT… OUR FRIENDS MELINA AND RANNI

The scarseal and soreseal items of Marika and Radagon are also carved into eyeballs… could eye trauma be an empyrean trait?? could Messmer also be an empyrean, one who the current demigods didn’t know the existence of??? 

with all that being said, I really doubt that this guy is Rykard or Rykard’s child as I’ve seen some people speculate… these other clues in the trailer point towards him being another, separate demigod. so what do we make of all the similar imagery?? I think that Messmer might be working against the Erdtree toward his own ends, and he’s embracing similar powers that Rykard did when he turned traitor. 

who is he then? I think he’s a demigod child of Marika, and possibly of Radagon because of the hair (unless his hair color comes elsewhere? a curse?). I think he got banished to the shadow realm for treason reasons, given the heretical symbols. perhaps he was an empyrean with his own agenda who was disposed of by Marika, like the Gloam Eyed Queen? perhaps he has ambitions to return to the real world and become Lord, destroying the Tarnished who might take his throne?

I did this instead of sleeping I hope you’re all happy

[drenched-in-sunlight]

Huh, you know, Miquella divesting Trina reminds me of this discussion when the base game came out that Radagon was trying to undermine Marika & take over completely (his portraits & statues depict him in heroic and in control pose, while Marika was crucified with eyes downcast).

Now with the DLC proving that it’s Marika who is the emotions, the part that is heavy with love and rage and sorrow, I wonder if she knew had Radagon succeeded, the current rotten Order would persist, so better to drag him to death with her too, right now. Shatter it all.

Her smashing the Elden ring turns out to be motivated by so many legit reasons, after all. The realization that she had become just like the oppressors who stuff her people into jars, the death of Godwyn, her separation from Messmer, Death was back, Radagon was trying to cast her away to maintain the current status quo… wow.

also this explains why the base game goes out of its way to show that Miquella was once close to Radagon… (those Rings of Light spells) not Marika … 💀💀💀💀 all the signs are there…

[oflorelei]

My Problem is:

That it's a let down. Listen I am not mad or horrible dissapointed over that Radahn is there (although sigh i wished we would have gotten that Age of Abundance/Compassion man). I am not mad that he is apparently a puppets and that miquella is apparently the villain from the shadows. I'm mad that they hyped this DLC up so hard, using Miquella's character, which they know to be shrouded in mystery and HYPE, made it appear that we may have the chance to join him/get betrayed by him, made people belief he SPECIFALLY seeks out the tarnished or multiple tarnished at once (to help him?)- that he is the central figure of this DLC when he is not. And thats not an underestimation.

Miquella, most fearsome of the Empyreans, the 'father' of the Halligtree, beloved by near all, who "[...]wields love to shrive clean the hearts of men. (There is nothing more terrifying.)" - does not even have his own bossfight.

No, he is basically just a cape for a boss we already fought to a DLC that costs 40€. He is in the promotion arc, he is said to be a central figure, he is said to be the fearsome empyrean of all. One thing he isnt? Apparently worth the time of day.

I am ok with Miquella being turned into a villain, I am not ok with Miquella being turned into a joke.

There were so so many roads they could have taken with him, he was PROMISING in every regard.

Want to make him a Villain? Fine the reason can be:

=> Manipulation/Enchanting for people to love him (to ensure someone will always look out for him)

-not absolutely evil per say- and it makes sense that someone who is stuck in the body of a child might want to count on many people rather then one person to protect them = it is his weapon to wield affection

- still takes away free will, even consent to some degree

=> Formless mothers influence

- do i even need to explain this one lmao

- already thousands of theories before this DLC thought that miquella might have been negatively influenced by her- especially when so many things in this Game revolve around blood and the power of it

=> "for the greater good" ahh ending

- 'the means justify the end' mentality (maybe even allign with the manipulation and enchanting)

-would be a similar situation to ranni and could mirror it- not the best but also not horrible

=> St. Trina is Miquella's Radagon

- Miquella splitting slowly with the golden order & turning his back to the easier path & planning behind the shadows to change how Things have been? Yeah maybe St. Trina could have been to Miquella what Radagon was to Marika (a guard dog, keeping her checked (sry but i genuinely believe Radagon returned bc Marika started to stray)).

-could also have explored how marika had to deal with it & her relationship to her other self => player could maybe decide who they wished to serve

=> the curse drives mad

- being stuck in the body of a child when you are a grown adult mentally is pure eldritch horror imo, it is not only physically but chances are high it could cause deeper psychological issues

- when grief drove marika mad it can drive miquella mad to that despite everything he does, being so prodigal, does not help and helplessness of it all too

- bc no one can help and no one can understand him

- he is stuck in a body that is his, and yet its the body of a past him, something he should have outgrown, something that belongs to the past- and (IMO) he can not fight truly in his body, not even to defend himself- having to constantly rely on people for your protection when you are an incredible independent creature? Horrible

- while not the most climatic- would it be truly unthinkable that miquella maybe just..gave up? That it drove him mad with grief to realize he spends his life searching for a cure that might not even exist?

- again thats more then a 'what if' then realistic like the rest of the list but i just love the horror adult mind child body

Want to make him a good guy? Fine the reason can be:

=> He is described so. He knew that he would be the next god & took responsibility.

- Miquella created the Haligtree, feed by his OWN blood (which takes far longer and more energy then just using bodies) or all that are rejected by the golden order, he is compassionate & kind. He is protective and by gods above he does want to help, he does break away from the golden order when he realizes they are not what they seem

-With ranni not wanting to become the successor and Malenia cursed with the rot it only leaves Miquella open, he would have been aware of it

- He is already a 'big' brother, caring for malenia, caring for all who were considered Misfits such as the Albinauric & Misbegotten, providing a sanctuary and hope

- Miquella is described as kind, as compassionate someone who basically does wish to bring a change and is ready to self sacrifice for the better

There are many more but guys im so so tired and need to nap. In short: its incredible to me how you can make a Character that had potential for all possible sides (good, evil, inbetween) so bland, his arc and journey feel like white toastbread, his relationship to his beloved sister malenia seems fake, he doesnt appear to be an adult trapped in a body of a child but as simply put an idiot who is all about "me me me me" & then doesnt even get a bossfight.

Im not mad it was written, i am made there was zero thought or reasoning put behind it, when there were so so many options to make it good. Its sorta fascinating that somehow no one likes this ending, not the Radahn Fans, Nor the Miquella or Malenia Fans..idk man. Having feelings about this.

Also im really bummed we didnt get a cutscene were the tarnished touches Miquella's arm to travel like- man.

Also sorry for the grammar/spelling or maybe even logic errors i just needed to vent ngl

[grimitto]

Hello. I've never posted on tumblr before but I figured I would now.

I'm trying to get a full description of Messmer's backstory plotted out and after doing some research this is what I have so far (the briefest, simplest version.)

Messmer was born with a cursed ability, flame. Much like the frenzied flame that threatens to burn the Lands Between into pure chaos. Messmer was also born with an Abyssal Serpent (Base Serpent???) inside of him, although it can manifest on the outside. (???) The serpent consumes his flames and grows endlessly more powerful. Messmer's flame and the Abyssal Serpent were very powerful, drawing ire from his mother, Marika who despises any threat to her throne.

Messmer has always been family-oriented and enjoys the camaraderie between shared bonds. Brothers in arms or brothers in blood. Before his mother's crusade, Messmer spent his time with his younger siblings and friends, and likely trained alongside them from youth. Particularly Radahn is said to regard Messmer (and Gaius) as older brothers.

"Both were as elder brothers to the lion, and both were cursed from birth. In spite of, or perhaps because of this very reason, Gaius was both Messmer's friend and the leader of his men." - Remembrance of the Wild Boar Rider

The "lion" being Radahn.

Marika, fearing Messmer's powerful flame, wanted to test his loyalty by turning him into a symbol of her wrath. Marika has always hated those who embraced unnatural and grotesque traits, wings and horns specifically, so she embarked on a crusade to cleanse these people, the "hornsent," from the Lands Between. Messmer, eternally loyal to his mother, did so without qualms. The hornsent, and any who are considered enemies of Messmer's mother, Queen Marikia, will always be enemies of Messmer.

[Of the hornsent] "A vestige of the crucible of primordial life. Born partially of devolution, it was considered a signifier of the divine in ancient times, but is now increasingly disdained as an impurity as civilization has advanced." - The Crucible Scale Talisman

Although his armies knew this war would be far from honorable or heroic, Messmer's strong bonds with his men resulted in him having a large and loyal army for his crusade. They gave up riches, titles, and faced scorn for being loyal to Messmer.

"The warriors who fought in the crusade set aside both honor and mercy to wantonly impale and scorch those deemed impure." - The Crusade Insignia Talisman

"Each and every knight hailed from a renowned family of the Erdtree's upper echelons, but were shunned and chased from their homes after pledging allegiance to Messmer as their master." - Fire Knight helm

One warrior, who became known as Messmer's most loyal, was a princess of Carian, Rellana. She abandoned her nobility to follow Messmer. Her loyalty was influenced by romantic love that Messmer never returned.

The crusade was going well (as far as genocides go), but some of Messmer's men learned of his accursed flame and the Abyssal Serpent always growing stronger inside of him and—fearing Messmer was actually corrupt or would become so inevitably—rebelled and mutinied against Messmer in an attempt to kill him. Messmer dispelled them without any difficulty (they were banished to an underground tomb), but mourned the loss of his brothers-in-arms.

The surviving hornsent and many of the general population rightfully vilified Messmer for the crusade.

His mother, learning of this growing unrest, finally found a reason to get rid of Messmer, who was powerful enough to threaten her throne. She plucked out Messmer's eyes, and replaced only his right eye with a Seal of Grace, used to weaken the Abyssal Serpent and flames inside of Messmer. Marika then rescinded Messmer's Grace and banished him to a realm known as the "Shadow of the Erd Tree." Marika also banished any of those still loyal to Messmer, including Rellana.

Messmer, forever loyal to his mother, does not scorn her for abandoning him. Although he is bitter in exile, he blames himself and his flame, he hates the crimes he committed, resulting in a strong self-resentment. Messmer took all the blame of Marika's orders.

"On his mother's wishes, Messmer made himself a symbol of fear, undertaking the cleansing crusade she desired."

"Direct thy maledictions, thine ire, and thy grief towards me alone." - Messmer's armor

Also, I haven't seen the item descriptions to back this up, but apparently the Shadow of Erdtree realm is like the afterlife for the Lands Between and Marika has assigned Messmer to rule over it. That makes more sense than just banishing him, but I haven't seen the in-game sources.

Judging by his dialogue when Messmer meets the Tarnished, I believe the reason he attacks is solely out of loyalty to his mother. As he considers all Tarnished an enemy of Marika as they are "stripped of the grace of gold," AKA they are not guided by grace because Marika doesn't like them.

He also clearly harbors his own prejudice against Tarnished, as he then destroys the restraining eye his mother put in him saying, "I will not suffer a Lord devoid of light," which means he'll die to stop Tarnished becoming Elden Lord, even though Marika allegedly wants the Tarnished to become the Elden Lord, which is fairly common, but overall confusing...

---

Anyways, this is what I personally consider to be Messmer's backstory after looking around (Credits mainly to this reddit post) and trying to compile all the random bits into a story. If anyone knows other important details or thinks something here is wrong I'd love some feedback!

Grim out 💪

[dragoncult-handmaiden]

If you are a woman who plays Elden Ring, PLEASE REBLOG THIS!!!!

I have not met a single woman irl who plays Elden Ring, and it saddens me. I don’t know many women in general who are gamers. Hell, I’ve only met one other serious female gamer in my life

I’m NOT saying this as a pick me sort of thing. The beauty of streamers is that since we can see them online, it gives us the illusion that female gamers are everywhere. But we are not. We are in the vast minority.

So please, if you are a woman and play Elden Ring, reblog this! Female gamers unite, we need more representation!!

And can we appreciate the badass women of Elden Ring while we’re at it??? We couldn’t have made it through the game without the guidance of multiple women. And also THANK YOU FROMSOFT for not sexualizing any women in the game. I LOVE WOMEN RAHHHHH

Tumblr wouldn’t let me add any more pics, I love all women in Elden ring (except Marika for obvious reasons)

[dragon-communion]

Alright I have this theory about Miquella, Malenia and Trina that I need to float out there.

When we find her, Malenia specifically states that she was dreaming. She has in fact been dreaming.

I dreamt for so long. My flesh was dull gold... and my blood, rotted. Corpse after corpse, left in my wake as I awaited his return. ... Heed my words. I am Malenia. Blade of Miquella. And I have never known defeat.

It's hard to say whether or not Malenia was in communication with Miquella via dreams. I do think there's some meat to the theory that she split herself, however, very much the way Miquella and Marika did.

Malenia budded off daughters in Aeonia, and I think that in the same way Trina represents Miquella's love and Radagon might be Marika's sense of loyalty, Millicent could literally be Malenia's dignity.

There is something I must return to Malenia. The will that was once her own. The dignity, the sense of self, that allowed her to resist the call of the scarlet rot. The pride she abandoned, to meet Radahn's measure.

-Millicent

Considering how relatively willingly Malenia bloomed for us, I have to wonder if she did indeed literally lose her restraint.

And she had so many splits.

By the time we get to her, Malenia has rotted the entire Haligtree and she seems to be a hollow shell of herself, repeating who she is and what she stands for like a mantra until we make her desperate. She is frozen in time as that woman who bloomed in Caelid, I think, just a fragment made of raw determination to win at any cost.

It's also notable that the Scarlet Rot isn't just painful, it might actively cause nightmares.

Everything is as you said. Since inserting the needle, the scarlet rot has ceased to writhe. Even the nightmares have abated...

-Millicent

Malenia might've been experiencing Rot-induced nightmares for a few hundred years until we got to her.

Miquella's textual motivation for moving proverbial mountains all throughout his life was curing his sister. While he struggled to uproot it at the source, they did find several stopgap treatments: wearing Miquella's unalloyed gold, which conferred a limited amount of his own immunity onto the bearer; and the Sword Saint's flowing water techniques.

I think Trina, as Miquella's love and an aspect of his own affinity for forgetfulness/oblivion, might've become the saint of sleep specifically out of Miquella's urge to soothe his sister's unquiet dreams. She eventually expanded and gained more autonomy, moving on to the Cleanrot Knights, then the merchants and albinaurics. It's hard to say when the albinaurics were brought to her attention, but I think Miquella had a lot of dealings with Ranni, Rykard, and maybe even Iji.

(Side note: could the mirrorhelm have made Iji immune to Miquella's charm?)

Torrent's whistle in particular is delicate goldwork that I think is heavily implied to be Miquella's handiwork. Of the smiths and engineers in-game, I think Miquella's skill at making outright automail had to take at least some inspiration from Rykard's machinery, and a lot of the weapons associated with the Haligtree take inspiration from Carian weaponry. The Miquellan Knight's sword is basically a Carian sword with the glintstone switched out for Haligtree bloodstone amber. Why is that?

(Additional side note: I think Loretta might've been Radahn's teacher in the art of horsemanship and archery, considering she's the only other Carian character heavily associated with horses and archery. It'd provide a good reason for why her albinauric identity was a huge secret. And, once Radahn left for Sellia to learn gravity magic/get a new mentor, that gave her the free time she would need to champion the albinaurics and investigate the Haligtree.)

Either way, Trina would have had front row seats to the treatment of the albinaurics as servants and worse, and there's a chance that that was when she had her first encounter with the Flame of Frenzy.

Miquella's approach to excising gods was scientific, but I think Trina attacked the problem from an ideological angle. It's actually a pretty good idea, since the gods in Elden Ring seem to be ideologies made physical. Frenzy is despair- so those afflicted with Frenzy must be given hope, and they were given a "holy land" in the form of the Haligtree. And we can in fact still find their hope in the Apostate Derelict, Philia's promise of being able to birth albinaurics, in very close proximity to the largest amount of Trina's Lilies in the game.

Tl;dr: I think Trina is a saint of sleep specifically because Malenia was afflicted by Rot-nightmares, and Miquella wanted so badly to help her that he budded off an aspect of himself that could.

[funpolishfox]

So, madness in Elden Ring only affects player-type characters, which means you can only proc madness on Gideon, when it comes to main game bosses. Of course, it's usually not a big deal, since frenzied flame is still good damage source and there are plenty other things you can proc on bosses. I don't think, there's specific lore reason as to why bosses as such Malenia or even Morgott cannot be frenzied (probably being able to proc frenzy animation on such bosses would make fights easier). But I was thinking- what if Frenzied Flame could affect other bosses? I'm speculating now more in lore way than gameplay way. After all, Frenzy Flame is all about despair, pain and misery- we can see it with Edgar after Irina's death and with merchants. It's about wanting to end all the pain, about wanting to burn down everything, so you cannot be hurt any further. It plays on emotions, especially love and care, as such case was with Vyke. Thinking about it, UndeadHumor was onto something when he made sketch with Morgott and Frenzied Flame- some demigods could be greatly influenced by it. Or rather, a specific child of Marika. Messmer. Others could probably combat it to some degree- Morgott was sealing Three Fingers away with Mogh, so it's obvious they were resisting it (and Mogh was influenced already by many other things). Radahn, Ranni and Rykard all have/had strong wills and couldn't be easily swayed. Miquella could probably be swayed, but once losing his emotions, Frenzy Flame couldn't really use him and Malenia is also strong-willed character, resorting to help from Outer Gods only as last-ditched effort. Melina obviously knows about Frenzied Flame and despises it. But Messmer? This man is already knee-deep in pain. He's been mommy's good boy for centuries long, doing war for her and getting nothing in return. Being abbanoned, scorned child, not having any place in his mother's new, perfect world. Forced to hide his serpent nature, something he couldn't control. And losing it all, once he sees his mother truly left him and choose some Tarnished over him. Why wouldn't he want to burn it all? He even states embracing oblivion in his second phase. His flame is already known as flame without honor or grace. He already brought so much pain onto everybody, including himself, he lost people important to him, he knows, he has no future outside of his crusade, which in the end, didn't earn his mother's love or favor. I might be missing some lore details, as I'm still trying to tie main game stuff with DLC revelations, but I won't lie- Messmer using both his red flames and yellow flames the same way Midra did, would be cool as hell. And yes, I am big fan of Messmer and Midra, how could you tell?

[katyspersonal]

So like... thoughts on Messmer's crew? Not the man himself, just the guys he hired.

I actually found the remaining two Fire Knights just recently! :D I didn't post about it yet, but I assume this is all of them! ...I hope. Shadow's Keep has too many turns. Who knows.

This is sweet how they all are close with Messmer and stood with him no matter what.... Unlike THESE traitors:

(Sorry I forgot to copy the screenshots so have bad phone images fshhds) Like @heraldofcrow said earlier, it is really stupid how they could accept like genocides and whatever but drew the line at him being a snake sdfhfghds Well, Fire Knights definitely didn't!

Queelign was the first one I've met, and apparently in the wrong order since I missed him in Belurat and had to go back there! And I instantly hated that zealot, even before I had the picture of what exactly Fire Knights were!

^ As if Queelign's dialogue was not enough, he also dropped THIS! The reason I will ALWAYS respect Miyazaki no matter what is that he always finds the way to throw a jab at this particular grudge at human race fsdhfdsh

He is still a terrible person, but since then I warmed up to him when I've found some potential in him! He is not only the most fleshed out from the Fire Knights, but also in JUST the right way! He is very passionate and fanatical, but also very genuine and naive with his feelings. And he not only wants to be like Messmer, but also has very strong fixation on Marika! Like I keep joking, she is such a bad mother that even people who aren't her children have mommy issues over her fhhdsf

But he also, interestingly, reflects that weaker, childish part of Messmer that still wants his mom to love him. Whereas Messmer is at least good at repressing it, with Queelign it is completely loose and earnest, and the guy is probably not aware! He IS like a little version of himself in this way.. Not sure whether Messmer dislikes him, or pities him, or maybe at least several times told him to NOT try to be like him! In any case, it is really cool how there is the guy who gives that interesting insight. You could write headcanons essays on the psychology between Queeling and Messmer, or just Queelign. I wrote an essay on what could transpire if Tarnished healed him instead (I believe he dies when we find him, from deadly wounds since we only access his chamber after beating him twice).

Like, you can work with this character, you see what I mean? I never found a similar rambling potential in, say, Alfred or Lautrec. They're religious fanatics too, yet that was exactly ALL I could tell about them. MEANWHILE I've made like FIVE posts about Queelign already and they are all substancial! And, boy, any writer WANTS a strictly cruel, fanatical, irredeemable, negative character to give something to talk about besides just kicking the topic of them being bad. If you are writer, remember to similarly give the topics of discussion to your villains! I agree with what Izunia said earlier:

+ Correction though: Petrus does NOT belong in the list of fanatics xd He has opposite problem! He is a selfish, opportunistic, corrupt, cowardly parasite that benefits from the religious institution and doesn't actually HAVE any beliefs he will kill and die for. He kills for his benefit, like how he killed Reah after her being rescued clearly so she would not rat him out, ie risk his position as elite cleric! There is a good reason why of all cleric/religious/etc characters he is the only one who has no simps!

This guy kicked my ass a couple of times, but if Fire Knights are Messmer's most important people, that makes him second most important person in his army? ...okay third, after his wife Rellana fsdjhdfhssd Really clever how only the captain wears a helmet fashioned after this creature, since he keeps Messmer's military forces in check here

1) I also assume that the "loneliness" Wego experienced was from having outlived the people he held dear as not only being in the military but also elder! Because why else would he be strictly lonely, if he has friends within the covenant? Like look right here, he had a pupil! :p 2) This implies that disagreeing with Messmer was a huge risk.. but not only Messmer spared him, but also actually listened to his request!

So basically, Salza is okay with burning people and their homes, but he draws the line at destruction of like, culture, knowledge and ancient architecture fshfds And not he alone:

It were Fire Knights who asked Messmer to have the Specimen Storehouse, so there is at least historical remains about the species they destroyed! So as funny as the double standard looks, it makes a lot of sense; like it was mentioned earlier, all Fire Knights were nobles at the Erdtree! Of course they have it internalised to preserve culture and knowledge for the future! They all had to be well-educated and well-cultured people, not sympathising with the type of hatred that aims to erase as much as history! And at the same time, being educated didn't help them to consider not participating in the HoLy cRuSaDe to begin with..

And this is so human. It is very realistic. There is a lingering misconception that it is ignorance, poor quality of living, low class, bad past or all at once that makes people prone to crime, but in reality there are criminals in every class and every demographic. We should not attribute the root of all evil, crimes and harmful prejudices only to concrete group, because this is always just a matter of multiple people gathering and deciding to do something. When it is not mistreatment and despair that drives people to evil, it is power and corruption, because people ARE evil by nature.

_______________

So yeah, I really like what they did with this covenant! They did well with giving the sense of each of them being an individual by naming and distinguishing five characters like this! For Soulsborne games, this is rich x) They have some tweaks to their outfits or weapons, they have characterisation that makes them unlike each other, and THIS is what's wild; how so many people that clearly can and always could think for themselves ended up here! Queelign too! I could speculate that Alfred has been indoctrinated and brainwashed since young age, or that Lautrec lost his marbles after some sort of grasp by Fina, but Queelign apparently was no less of a noble that decided to go like his peers, nor he'd be any more embraced by Marika than everyone else with grace! He is Just Like This fshdfhs

They made the covenant very real an interesting. (Also rich for creating OCs if you like writing awful people and want to be close with Messmer 😔)

[amiya-shirou]

Spoilers about Miquella and Marika's DLC Lore

Hate how there's so much black and white perspective in the Elden Ring community, especially regarding Miquella and Marika. Sorry if this sounds too much like an aggressive rant, it's not really my intention

"Miquella did fucked up shit which clearly clashes with his previous lore about being kind and compassionate, SOTE has bad writing" even in the base game he was already said to be the most fearsome of the demigods and it was kinda implied that he made kindness his weapon as he knew well how to make others love him, perfectly consistent with Ansbach's speech

"Miquella is manipulative so obviously he never really cared about Malenia" with all the things he did for her? is it so hard to believe he truly cared about his twin sister for the sake of which he went so far as to find ways to protect her from an Outer God's influence? with Malenia seemingly knowing about Miquella's plan and everything?

"Radahn loved his horse and protected people so he was obviously a perfectly good gigachad who could never ever agree with Miquella" he was among the forces attacking Leyndell. his ideal was Godrey - a conqueror, and the first Elden Lord. having an obsession with battle and war certainly doesn't sound like someone who could never do anything wrong, no matter how honorable he might be in battle.

"Marika did a lot of bad things and was a tyrant so obviously she never held any real love for poor Messmer or even Godwin and all she cared about was power." she made blessings to help Messmer specifically, something unique enough it's specified she never did such a thing again. 2 of these are dropped by Tree Sentinels protecting her home village which she bathed with Grace and clearly held deep love for. She went to great lengths to help him with his curse when she could have just killed him or imprisoned him where he coulnd't be of harm like she did with the Omen twins. she smashed the Elden Ring, literally sacrificing her position as queen as that action put her against the Greater Will and resulted in her shackling, which definitely doesn't sound like someone who cares about power and herself alone. And about that, if she's been imprisoned ever since before the start of the game with no one knowing about it, why are most people so easily assuming she voluntarily abandoned and ignored Messmer? she physically couldn't contact him if she wanted to. Like, it's debatable, maybe she did abandon him since before the Shattering, but it definitely doesn't feel that obvious to me, and Messmer misinterpreting her disappearance feels more in tune with the FromSoft style tragedy

all this sounds like those who insisted that since Ranni caused the Shattering then of course she can only be evil and manipulative all the time and clearly holds no real affection for the Tarnished and is only manipulating us as well. Which I feel completely clashes with her questline, narrative and characterization.

Kind people can still do evil, especially if they don't fully realize how bad what they're doing is, or if they think they're making a necessary sacrifice. Cruel, fucked up people can still love, and love might be the very reason why they ended up being so cruel. This is something the whole game is built on, and even before Elden Ring, a constant of the Souls series has been about fighting tragic individuals who ended up in antagonistic positions despite their originally good intentions.

imho Marika and Miquella are both better, more complex character than they would have been otherwise, and leave more to discuss about the game's themes and narratives, specifically because they have multiple facets to them. The hated Queen of the Golden Order was originally a victim. Her kind son who tried to fix his family's wrongdoings discarded so much of himself and did so many things to achieve his dream of compassion that he ended up being just as wrong as his mother. Isn't this much more interesting than putting out an entire game-sized DLC just to say "manipulative evil queen girlboss truly didn't care about anything and just wanted power!!" and "Kindly Miquella is so perfect!!! this surely fits our 'nothing is perfect or eternal and everything is ambiguous' narrative"?

[nerendus]

Okay, this is a little bit of a tangent ramble about Miquella and may not make the most of sense, but bear with me.

I know baseline the PC's motivations are going to be left up to the player, but I do love how Fromsoft sets up the player's motivations for killing Miquella.

Because at first, based on the dialogue options you have with Freyja specifically, it appears you come to the shadowlands to be somewhat of service of Miquella, but then you go meet St. Trina who asks you to kill him, and that's why you end up fighting him. Because it doesn't necessarily make sense to fight him if you just wanted his Great Rune like the Tarnished are inclined to want, you would just fight the sunflower if that was the case.

But other than St. Trina wanting him dead--not out of revenge but as a way of freeing him from the shackles of godhood--, another reason the PC would want him dead is because he is most certainly to end up like Marika.

Miquella is not a villain. The cutscene of him from as an Empyrean is very much of him having naive innocence of wanting to make the world a better place. I'm still a little confused as to why Empyrean!Miquella thought that Radahn could help him reach those goals (other than the whole Godwyn eclipse thing), but I feel like I know fully why Radahn would be of great service of God!Miquella.

Miquella's motivations for becoming a god is first and foremost to heal Malenia. That's why he left the Golden Order and that's why the Haligtree was created. Along the way, he came to realize the injustice of the Omen and every creature that lives outside the Golden Order's grace as well as the cruelty of Godwyn's murder, and it all ties into him needing to become a god to fix all the injustices he sees around him.

To pass through the divinity gate and become a god, Micky had to strip himself of who he was before. His flesh, his love, his other self, they all had to be ripped from him in order for him to ascend, and that's where he became unsaveable.

St. Trina tells us that godhood would be a prison for him, but not only that, becoming a god means that he will end up like Marika. If he separates himself from his love to become a god, how is he supposed to save the people he loves once he ascends?

At the point that we fight him, I don't think he is anywhere close to "evil", but he would eventually get to that point. He already charms many of the NPCs, however, I feel inclined to mention that at that point, he wasn't exactly mind-controlling them. Ansbach's dialogue is still riddled with a sense of suspicion before the charm is ever lifted, and quite a few of them seem almost aware of the fact that they are charmed but they can't do anything about it. The only time I think he is fully mind-controlling someone is the player character after he does his grab attack twice.

And the reason why the god Miquella wanted to use Radahn is that I think he knows at that point war is inevitable. I think if we left him alone, he would eventually attack the Golden Order. Which, is fine, at first. But once you fight the soldiers of the Golden Order, what if that one day extends to its people it serves? And what if you find another civilization that you deem needing to be saved from another civilization, or if someone threatens your new order? In that sense, he is destined to end up in the same situation as his mother.

Which is why I love the lore attached to Marika in this DLC. At first, she may have only attacked the armies of the Hornsent, but I think one day it just extended to all of its people regardless of their innocence or guilt in the slaughter of her people. The lore of her past serves as a warning for what will become of Miquella if we allow him to become a god.

And one of St. Trina's last words is to kill him in order to grant him forgiveness. If we kill Miquella before he has the chance to return to the Lands Between, he could still die as an innocent being unlike Marika.

[sermessmer]

🖤🤍 for Elden Ring!

omg hi im sorry this took so long but now ive thought long and hard about my answers for this.

🖤: which character is not as morally good as everyone else seems to think?

hot take but i think its thiollier. people constantly reduce to a “soft sleepy sad boi” as if he doesn’t literally try to kill you for not fulfilling his delusions toward saint trina. not saying hes evil! but def not the pure uwu innocent cinnamon roll the fandom often portrays him as. there is something deeply wrong with him and we should accept that fact.

🤍: which character is not as morally bad as everyone else seems to think?

do i even need to say my answer out loud considering everything on my blog? its hornsent! i genuinely love him so much and i kinda feel like a lot of the hate for him is because he doesnt kiss the ass of the player character like so many other npcs. he has zero reason to be nice to you. negative reasons in fact! and ive seen people claim he was “genocidal” for what he says after the messmer fight which is like. do you hear yourself. he is a single man who wants revenge for the brutal death of his family and entire culture! if anything he is a huge parallel to marika whom people constantly defend while putting hornsent down. do i think hes a good person? no. but people constantly acting like hes evil compared to someone like leda are just wrong lol.

[buttered-milky]

So how does Messmer's story interact with a theme of autonomy?

OMG FUCKING FLAPPING MY HANDS SO HARD AT THIS ASK GLAD YOU FUCKING ASKED ANON 💞✨💞✨💞✨

Okay, sorry it took me one grillion years to get this posted, but it is basically an essay and I also have Many Life Events that prevent me from getting a chance to sit down and write. I have many thoughts. I will put them under a read more.

When I say Messmer’s story is about autonomy, I mean this specifically in relation to disability.

To me, the base serpent functions as an allegory for some sort of disability. We know the base serpent feeds on Messmer’s flame—this is his curse, to have this eldritch thing gnawing at his soul.

Now how is the base serpent treated by those around Messmer? And how does it affect his life? (Answer: negatively)

Let’s start with how the serpent itself functions as an independent agent. For a moment please forget what I said about it being a disability metaphor—it still is but that’s a mystery mouskatool for later. Right now we’re gonna talk about it as a living entity of its own.

As I pointed out, the serpent feeds on Messmer’s flame, and this harm and how intertwined it has become with Messmer’s existence limits Messmer. It has affected his view of himself to the point it limits his choices in life. How to present himself—with or without flame? He associates his flame with the serpent. How to fight—with or without the serpent’s power? It doesn’t seem to hurt him to use the serpent, but it does make others uncomfortable.

The harm itself of the serpent using Messmer as a food source is also a very basic imposition on Messmer’s autonomy. Of course he doesn’t want an eldritch snake gnawing at him like a chew toy, but the serpent is not going to leave him alone. It does not give him his own space and freedom.

Messmer tries to remove his flame not because the flame itself is a curse, but because it attracts something which is. That’s deeply fucking sad. He’s trying to remove parts of himself—to change himself fundamentally—just to get basic freedom and autonomy.

Now let’s also look at how others see the base serpent. For example, Marika.

Listen. She tried her best with him but I do wonder when the grace seal happened. It seems (to me at least, though we have no confirmed timeline) to have been done early in his life given the language used to describe the serpent. This was urgent. Marika was very worried about this wicked serpent and what it was doing to her son! This is important, by the way—that she does these things out of love.

Marika is also, however, deeply concerned with her own ideals. For example, light, the source of her own grace and of Messmer’s power. Messmer seems to scorn those “devoid of light” as he puts it. Darkness in itself is a curse under the Golden Order. Perhaps she wants to save the flame within Messmer for this reason, although there is definitely the motivation of that is her son.

The dual motivations, to both protect someone and to enforce our ideals of what is “best” is what hurts so many disabled folks. Sometimes “normal” is not attainable—and it doesn’t have to be! What disabled people find normal or doable or comfortable is fine, and they should have the agency to say so. That’s where I see autonomy really coming into Messmer’s story as an important motif.

Messmer is unfortunately born into a society that, at least to Marika, seems prejudiced against the strange. He is born into a world that would hate him for having the base serpent (though that is no fault of his own). And instead of trying to change this faulty thinking in others, Marika changes her son.

Her healing is…a mixed bag. The blessings Marika makes for her son seem alright. That’s non-invasive medicine, and it’s not like she’s forcing these down Messmer’s throat. But the grace seal is more iffy. Like I said, I’m not sure how I feel about the grace seal and whether that’s really accommodation. It does send a certain message that, uh, a core part of Messmer deserves to be locked away for eternity, which is not healthy for anyone to hear.

But I can understand why Marika did it, too. She thinks she is healing/accommodating her son and making life livable. And maybe she is! The base serpent we see in the second phase of the fight looks painful. But that is also a manifestation of something that has been repressed for centuries and is boiling over.

I wanna know what the base serpent was like when he was born! Was it truly “wicked?” Did it want to hurt others, or just go after Messmer’s flame? Both? Was the base serpent just something Marika was uncomfortable with, because it took light from her son? How necessary is that light? I wanna know how necessary the grace seal was!

We know Marika had Messmer after her apotheosis—he is a demigod, after all. So at this point she is already being affected by the Greater Will and ideals that will become the Golden Order. I do think Messmer of all her children probably had the least of this Order forced upon him, but that isn’t to say he had none. He was in the Lands Between at some point, based on the fire giants and Impaler’s Catacombs. He did have to conform to some degree to be accepted.

He definitely had to conform to be accepted in Leyndell. People in the Shadow Lands may be accepting—we see Hornsent and no one gives a damn—but the Misbegotten and Omen in the Lands Between (who look a lot like hornsent, mind you)? Treated like absolute shit, because of the Order. There is no way Messmer was escaping such treatment, no matter if he was a demigod.

The grace seal could be accommodation, but it is also a manifestation of Marika’s and the Order’s ideals and the pressure to conform—to give up autonomy for safety (which is really no choice at all).

Above all, what Marika and/or Messmer do to “heal” him does nothing to fix societal prejudice. Nothing here fights for autonomy or freedom. Not the blessings, not the seal—I mean it’s a fucking seal, a lock.

And it only hides the base serpent, instead of actually fighting it, which in the end leads to destruction.

It is not necessarily a kindness to try to treat or cure a disability if you are not also working to undo the prejudice against said disability and provide accommodations. It is not necessarily a kindness to try to cure a disability which doesn’t need curing. And it is no kindness to demand disability be swept under the rug because it is not palatable enough to you.

This is where we see loss of autonomy.

Messmer is such a walking tragedy. He’s just doomed from the start. Marika is trying, but she’s not fixing the world, just continuing its cycles of violence. And even if she didn’t give him the seal, the base serpent would’ve been spurned.

As a last aside/point, I wanna discuss how Messmer deals with his own situation as a disabled person (and more generally a minority class) because it reflects something in the real world.

Messmer accepts the verdict that part of himself should be hidden, and that being what he is is bad, and he goes on to further this notion. He destroys the people his mother wants him to destroy. He commits genocide for many reasons, but one of them is because it guarantees a scrap of power under the Order. He preserves the status quo instead of fighting against it, and he tries to be “one of the good ones” to save himself as much as he can within a system that hates him.

He is someone who is not good enough for the order, and he is lightless, but at least he is denying himself to try to be like the oppressors.

Which gets you nowhere by the way. Being one of the good ones is never enough, and it will destroy you in the end.

[kingofpuppets]

elden ring dlc spoilers

here's my 2 cents about the dlc and the reactions i'm seeing

i have no intention of writing a post analyzing in-depth the lore of the dlc since i've yet to go through every dialogue and item description as i did for base game – anything i were to write now would be incomplete at best – so this is not it. i just wanted to address the overall dissatisfaction i'm seeing from a lot of people. like, as someone who spent weeks after playing the base game reading every single line of text in the game, analyzing each environment, enemy placement and design, seeing the reaction people are having to the dlc lore is quite funny. i get being disappointed a character isn't what you thought they'd be but going so far as to scream "bad writing!" is a bit excessive. i even saw people claiming miyazaki changed the writing to pander to the fans and, seriously? fromsoftware never came close to doing that and there's absolutely no reason for them to start now. but anyways, as i mentioned before i'm a huge lore nerd, the kind with a huge mind map containing nearly all relevant item descriptions, there's nothing in the base game i haven't read, so i think it's safe to say i have a somewhat good understanding of what new lore piece in the dlc contradicts what lore piece in the base game. i'm in no way an authority on the matter – there isn't one – nor am i pointing fingers saying "i'm right, you're wrong" – i just don't understand. i've been through countless different theories before i settled on the ones i entered the dlc with and obviously i wasn't right about everything – especially because a lot of it is speculation not to mention there's not really a right or wrong, only different interpretations of the same materials – but nothing new i encountered contradicted the base game lore i had put together. if anything, it strengthened even more some of my theories. so many people are upset about miquella being the main antagonist or that he's evil (which i completely disagree with, especially some posts portraying miquella as some kind of cartoon villain which is more speculation than anything with actual support from in-game lore), but everything was leading up to it if not in the base game in the dlc (the moment i found miquella's discarded love i figured who the final boss might be, when i found st. trina i was sure). "but the radahn fight comes out of nowhere" maybe there's no direct mentions of it in the base game but it is hinted quite well albeit very subtlety what miquella wanted to do with him in one of the dlc quests – not to mention radahn makes the most obvious sense when you think of miquella/radahn as a parallel to marika/godfrey. and miquella using mohg is not even worth mentioning – i hope my fellow mohg enthusiasts are feeling vindicated, as am i. in short, nothing seemed out of place for me at all. so i was really taken aback when i went into the tags and saw the overall mood. everyone can have different opinions regarding their enjoyment of the dlc nor are there right and wrong theories in a fromsoftware game where the lore is so vague but it's quite upsetting seeing people talk about how "the dlc ruined miquella's character" or "the dlc lore has no connection to the base game" when that's simply not true. if anything, the dlc only added more depth to miquella and even if i was heartbroken at the death of my favorite elden ring character, it made sense thematically. if anything i'm more upset about the fight itself but that's a gameplay problem which is not the focus of the post.

[mohgreal]

Mr Greal I need to rant about a SOTE thing I was thinking about last night. Fucking. Why not make it so that Mohg and Miquella were collaborating and both had a genuine, shared view of how to change the world? They both want the best for the disenfranchised races of the Lands Between, right? Miquella has the metamorphosing Albinaurics in the Haligtree, Mohg has his little red Mohglets, stuff like that.

Wouldn’t it be interesting if Blood For The Blood God Big Boy Mohg was who Miquella deemed the most kind or worthy or whatever of the demigods? Raaaaagh I’m just so mad how SOTE bulldozed over these two characters and sapped out anything interesting about them.

cw: me being annoying, (long) sote ranting because this fandom hates me for hating but that never stopped me, if you take this seriously its on you sorry . for some reason i get people feel offended by me openly expressing how i feel about some dlc so im still putting this here You Were Warned ....mr greal will add his personal comments .....

tumblr keeps fucking up my keep readinf STOP im sorry

this is my biggest gripe with sote is how boring they made the existing lore. not even 'bad', just very very boring. it's like i got the most boring reddit fanfiction as canon, which sucks because all the new stuff IS interesting. expect now i don't even care because they sucked the interest i had for the lore by doing so. they could've made radahn more interesting by giving him more lore that isn't just "i love war, golden order, and horsey!". they could've gave mohg more lore and depth. they could've made miquella more interesting and a genuinely new and fresh character with hope for once in a game where it's all bleak and misery.

but they didn't. why.

i don't get it and i never will. im convinced they had a different, or possibly worse — multiple teams work on sote because the way the entire dlc is structured, especially the lore and missing elements (no cutscenes for main bosses or black and white art desc) — really screams too many chefs working on one game (dlc). nightreign existing proves my prior theory ive had since sote came out day one

miquella is, to me, the most boring possible route they could've gone. if you believed the charming theory then it was also predictable for like two years so it's not even as shellshocking as the narrative makes it, because the game expects you (in the sense that based off the existing lore you would have the idea that miquella is morally gray) to know this. the issue is that the only real lore really pointing toward miquella being a charm guy is the bewitching branch. two sentences. you're supposed to get that miquella was Bad All Along because of [one] item description. why micheal zaki???? and yes you could say the other item descs hinted at it, but that's all it is, hinting. its vague and you could easily understand it as miquella being the true goodie people in game think he is.

as for the extreme devotion, i don't see how it's supposed to be seen as bad if you didn't know miquella was a charmer when it makes sense for the lands between to cling to the only piece of hope there is. like i would be worshipping him too when he's supposedly the only real kind demigod trying to make a change??? is this just micheal zaki and georgey marty's way of telling us life is miserable and dont trust incestous blondes? ive seen people defend this by saying its a design choice so the player can feel like miquella is good, then get betrayed like his followers so you can feel it too. but this doesn't work because you would have to be attached or at least like miquella which is basically impossible (unless you were a tumblr miquella stan feeding off dust and scraps) since you haven't meet him?? how can i be betrayed by someone whom i haven't even met? miquella is just childish griffith (im sorry to say that name) marika-ranni morally gray "you tried" badge lumped into one and i really miss how interesting he was before his own dlc. not to mention he only shows up piggybacking on his now boyfriend-brother for like one minute; and that's all he gets in his own dlc . if he was at least his own boss instead of lothric-lorian copy pasted but worse i wouldn't be nearly as disappointed

radahn is still boring to me, which he was before as well, his personlity is basically just the modern irl gymbro to me, which is to say i can't see him without his gym (in radahn's case, war or the golden order)

and mohg getting used as a body bag is so unneeded and just feels forced. i didn't even feel sad. the mohgreal (mr greal as called in the ask™️) didn't get sad at mohg being basically used even beyond death. because it didn't need to happen. you could say that's what makes it tragic, but to me it's just a cheap way of forcing radahn back. radahn's soul isn't what makes him powerful, his powers and body is. so just use mohg instead, miquella already had him charmed, did he not?? radahn's soul isn't going to make mohg magically radahn — except oh wait it magically makes mohg radahn all of a sudden even though that's not how it works!!! we literally saw ranni do this exact same thing (just with her own soul) yet radahn is a magic exception??? this is a blatant retcon and people who pretend sote doesn't have retcons feel like they're gaslighting me because this is just one of a few examples of contradicting lore sote gives you. even if you could magically give me a pile of reason to fill the plotholes, it still feels sour because i never needed to do this in the base game

TLDR: sote made me not care about elden ring, and im now back to being a horror addict im sorry. everyone is allowed to rant to me im very bored