#i know it’s not how the hercules myth really goes

[haillily]

the price was high (was it worth it?)

[cloudedgalaxies]

ANYWAYS Idiyuu is Hades and Persephone conspiracy:

Persephone is not from the Underworld. She is called back to the Mortal Realm eventually because she has to return. Yuu is literally from another world. They are not suited to Twisted Wonderland, and are nothing like Idia has ever seen. They have to go back eventually.

Hades is probably one of the few TWST boys to have a “canon” spouse (at least in Greek mythology, which Hercules’ Hades is obviously based on). On top of that, Hades and Persephone is the love story between death and life, isolation and abundance, ending and rebirth. Idia is a gloomy, pessimistic boy who has been condemned to be the keeper of the Underworld. Yuu is a kind, gentle prefect who has been there to help and has helped everyone they know, again and again. 

Night Raven College has been in a ‘winter’ for all of its history. Everyone is hostile to everyone, no one wants to cooperate or work together, and every single person there has some ulterior motive. In comes Yuu, who is a breath of fresh air. A new perspective. A new season. They bring ‘spring,’ showing people that they can bloom. They can harbor feelings that aren’t cruel. They can do things that aren’t harsh. And slowly, they start to thaw. Flowers of friendship and something gentler bloom. Yuu is there to help pull the boys from their darkest moments to see the light again. Idia is no exception.

I think that the way Book 6 was set up makes Idia and Yuu seem a lot more meaningful honestly, though I'm probably reading way too into things lol. Yuu originally goes to the Island of Woe to save Grim. They don’t particularly care much about what’s going on with Idia—they just want to get Grim back. But then later, once they realize what’s going on, they do. There isn’t much, if any, personal connection to Idia’s overblot like there was with all the others. Yuu doesn’t have to do anything to help. And yet, they still do. Even after Idia basically kidnapped Grim, they still help him. They still try to end his winter.

Persephone, in many forms of the myth, didn't originally go to the Underworld willingly. But eventually, she came to love Hades, and they were happy together. Idia and Yuu have no reason to care about the other at first. But they eventually do, after everything that happens and everything that brings them together.

Hades and Persephone are in a constant push and pull. Persephone has to leave because if she stays, winter will never end. She does not want to leave, because she loves Hades. Yuu has to leave Twisted Wonderland, because they have a home beyond it that they need to return to. And yet, they don't want to leave because they love Idia. Idia doesn't want them to go, because it finally feels like spring again. But the seasons have to continue in their cycle, so what can they do?

Also, I think it’s really funny and really beautiful how Idia and Yuu’s first meeting was probably the Ghost Marriage event. This guy who thinks he has 0 rizz ends up having to be saved by some strange new isekai'd student and their gang of potential suitors before he gets his first kiss and promptly dies afterwards. Idia, the boy surrounded by death, is saved by the prefect who seems to be giving everyone a new chance at life. Imagine how poetic it’d be if Yuu and Idia end up getting married in the end, except now neither of them are going to die and they have the rest of their new lives together. There will be winter, but there will also be spring. The cycle of seasons will continue, but flowers will always bloom. They will always return to each other.

[genericpuff]

I’m gonna have to disagree with you that Kaos is any better than LO. It’s all the same bull crap.

Kaos just seems like live-action LO, both having a boring storyline with bad or fetishized characterizations of the Greek Gods and figures, and both looking artistically beautiful and some cool concepts, but badly executed. The only difference is that Kaos has more LGBTQIA+ themes than LO, has a tiny bit more Greek references, and gets much darker. That’s pretty much it.

As a Greek who studies our myths and stories extensively, I’m tired of the west trying to take and rearrange our stories and retell them ‘with a modern, western lense’. It’s exhausting and infuriating.

It’s time the west gets over its fascination with us and move on.

Fair opinion! Honestly, the initial post I made about it was after only watching the first couple episodes. Now that I've finished it, I can definitely see actual glaring issues with it, both in their characterizations as well as in how they kind of lose the intrigue after a few episodes of the setting and elements of them being gods. Which are all issues that LO have as well.

Though I will say, LO has those issues far more than Kaos does, but what really separates LO from Kaos, in my opinion - the creators of Kaos aren't pretending that Kaos is more than it is. To me, Kaos isn't in any way a singular Greek myth retelling, more so a fun "Greek epic" style story featuring the gods in a modern setting, the way LO could have been if Rachel hadn't tried to make it into something bigger than it was (and if she didn't put herself on a pedestal as a "self proclaimed folklorist"). I can watch Kaos and appreciate it as a fun Greek myth inspired piece of media because that's pretty much all it's trying to be. Meanwhile LO gives us middle-school-level writing with very little real Greek myth influence (aside from what it benefits Rachel to do so) that even goes so far as to outright disrespect the myths that they were based on... all the while people praise it as the greatest Greek myth retelling ever.

I think Kaos is miles better than LO because it at least tells a more coherent story than LO ever could have, with a lot more attention paid to the stylization of a Greek epic (compared to LO which tried and failed to implement those same things, such as the Fates, self-fulfilling prophecies, and witty narration as to retell a story that's already happened).

Granted, that story still takes a lot of liberties with the source material (some that I enjoyed, others not so much), but in that regard, I refer to the above - Kaos isn't trying to be an actual retelling like LO did, so I view it the same way I do as something like Hercules or Hades, where the people who made it clearly love Greek myth and wanted to do some Greek myth-inspired story with their own twists on the narratives, and it paid off in a story that, in spite of their flaws, still feels intentional and thought out.

LO, by comparison, is just a mess of ripped off half-baked ideas thrown at a wall and filled in with self-fulfilling power fantasy garbage written by someone who claims to have deeper knowledge of the myths but clearly doesn't. It's hard to enjoy LO in spite of its flaws because it's all flaws and they're so deeply-rooted in the context of Rachel's own biases and sexual preferences that you really can't separate it from that once you know if it.

I do have some criticisms of Kaos and some of its more creative choices - Hera cheating on Zeus with Poseidon (literally wtf lmao), Persephone still being the "I went down there willingly!" archetype (though at least she's not 19 in this, the casting for her and Hades was great), as well as the fact that things weren't wrapped up by the end of the first season which really bums me out because now it's up to the mercy of Netflix to give it that second season - but ultimately, from a story-writing perspective, Kaos absolutely did accomplish having an actual narrative with themes and goal-driven writing that LO failed in having. That comparison doesn't make Kaos a 100% perfect show without flaw, but I made the comparison initially anyways because much of what I enjoyed in Kaos was what I expected from LO (and ultimately didn't get).

That's just my own two cents though! And I need to make it clear - I am not a Greek person! I have no say or merit within the discussion regarding Greek myth and how it's been appropriated!! - so ultimately... my opinion of these things really aren't as valuable as someone who actually is Greek or studied heavily in it.

So that said, I can completely see the merit in your own arguments that a lot of these "modern retellings" tend to miss the point of the stories they're trying to retell (esp with the criticisms I outlined above) and are often chewed up through a Western lens. The lesser of two evils is still evil. But if we're purely talking Kaos vs. Lore Olympus here as modern entertainment that are both attempting similar things... I'd be way more likely to rewatch and recommend one over the other. Plus there are a lot of adaptions out there made by Westerners / non-Greeks that are incredible and are, at the very least, amazing stepping stones into the world of Greek myth for those who want to learn more about it. Out of the pool of ongoing modern Greek myth retellings/inspired works - Blood of Zeus, Hades/Hades 2, Kaos, Epic: The Musical, Hadestown, Hercules, Percy Jackson & The Olympians, and Lore Olympus - it's not hard to guess which one I'd be the least likely to recommend as gateways into Greek mythology. If those titles were organized in a list of best to worst, Kaos isn't at the top of that list, but it's sure as shit higher than LO 💀😆

[beetlewine-art]

I really love when Media based on Greek Mythology takes the time to explore the dynamics between the gods. Specialy the family interactions between them, even the little moments of affection between them make the series about greek gods munch more enjoyable to me. For example, in Blood of Zeus with Apollo's little interactions with Hermes and Dionysus, or the when Ares defended Hera from the other gods in the second season when she goes back to Olympus.

However, i just watched a short video on youtube, it was a combination of two clips from diferent series, one from an episode of Hercules: the Animated Series and the other from Justice League Unlimited. Both clips were interactions of Ares and Hephaesthus, it made me realise how little their possible dynamic and interactions are talked or explored outside of Aphrodite.

Meybe i need to consume (even) more greek mythology media, but i honestly can't think of any other series besides of those two clips (and Lore Olympus) that showed us some kind of dynamic between Ares and Heph, without mentioning the affair between Ares and Aphrodite. And i get it, because the affair is one, if not the most, popular myth for both gods.

But i think is such a missed oportunity that people don't talk munch about what kind of relationship could Hephaesthus have with Ares before the affair and how it affected their dynamic when he found out. Was their relationship non-existant before it? Or did Hephaesthus interacted a fair amount of times with Ares before he found out? Since Ares is the god of war and Hephaesthus is the Blacksmith of the gods, i imagine that they interacted at least a few times when Ares needed Hephaesthus to make or fix his weapons.

Both clips i mentioned have Ares talking to Hephaesthus while Heph works on a weapon for him and i really enjoy how their dialogs are written. The first clip, being from a Disney series, is munch more comedic and light-hearted but i honestly can see them interacting in a similar way before the affair incident. Hephaesthus looks so done and bored while Ares rants with enthusiasm about how he needs this cool and unique new weapon. When Heph finishes working, Ares grabs the bow before Hephaesthus can put it on water to cool it down, burning his hands and Heph just says "Careful, is a little bit hot".

Also, this dialog from The justice League clip is just so good:

Ares: You say "come back Thuesday, is Thuesday, i want my suit.

Hephaesthus: Patience brother, you know how much i care about the details.

Ares: It doesn't have to be pretty, Hephaesthus, where it's going, things aren't supposed to be pretty.

Hephaesthus: Present company excluded, of course.

Ares: Just hurry up!

This show is not even about Greek Mythology and it gave us one of the best interactions between them i've seen. And of course, i'm not trying to ignore or deminish Aphrodite's role or the effect she would have on their dynamic.

I just wish that more people would explore the dynamic between the two before the affair, i want more 1 on 1 interactions between this two because they have so much potential.

Or meybe i just want to see more of Hephaesthus interacting with other gods in general, that works too.

Tag list: @my-name-is-apollo @diioonysus @anniflamma

[msbunnat]

sorry if it was asked before, but is your webcomic about ganymede and zeus will explore their relationship differently from the usual “kidnapped/raped/died” like will it show something more complex with ganymede fallin’ for Zeus but zeus being zeus and a god it will mean his ruin?

Hi! Its ok, I like people making questions (this the point of all my pre-comic art kkkk).

So, on my take I will use mostly what all myths have in common: the kidnapping and Ganimedes become immortal. Yes, those re the ONLY two things. After digging this myth so much, all versions have differents things to say (like, its not always Zeus the kidnapper; when its him, not all versions say Ganimedes was a lover to him; not all vesions even agree with his age and what he was doing before the kidnapping; the aquarius thing too is way debatable... in resume its a short myth with a lot of takes since ancient Greece and I'm doing my take -

*Plato was so bias to this myth as a love story that had spread like it is I guess. AND MY BIGEST OPP OVIDIO BASTARD GUY THAT DISTORTED SO MUCH THE MYTHS TO MAKE ALL HELENIC GODS LOOK WAY WORSE, THAT EVERYTHING AFTER HIM IS ALSO WAY WORSE!!! (Sorry, any oportunit I will talk how this guy ruined a lot their reputations). So like, there is no original to use as a solid base.

That said, It will be a complex relationship yes. But I will not tell if there is love or lust or anything, the fun is to discover it yourself, interpret and make questions (be decive by my characther bwahahahahah). Again, its deep, but is not so serious, I'm exploring and having fun. -w-

(BIG) Side note:

I cant find any sorce that says Ganimedes actually died, where do people take it? I have interpretations as the myth is about his real death (my interpretations goes on that direction), but on the myth itself, he never died. If you know the sourse, please tell me!

And about Zeus, after looking into him, and a lot of gods, I thing a lot of people dont care much what Zeus really means and is, think he is a pure mostrous ugly cartoonish villain thing that only think about sex... (dont get me wrong, I'm not denying or excusing his cheating and grapists things! I belive he was all this, but not the way people are used to think I guess - to me he grapes by decive, not by force and that is something intresting to explore). But there is so much more, he was a god really focused on justice and peace, he try to protect everyone in some cases and act in a way to make terms with what everyone wants... At the same time he is prideful of who he is and loves to joke around (really, he is a prankister too, in both good and bad ways). I have also find some people interpreting him being abused by Metis on some myths...

Its so sad people dont give a second look on him, when he have to many sides (and to all bad he have done, there is others gods that made the same or way worse, but they dont get this treatment).

I blame Hercules by disney! kkkkk Cause people got intrested in greek mythology and found out he was a complex being and hated that, and there is more 'nice' and 'romantic' myths about Hades kkkkkkkkkk

Welp, I'm still studying, but its getting kinda boring because Zeus have way to many myths and conections, makes me want to watch quick videos about him, but almost all dont tell the sorce ;-;

[tamaruaart]

AUGHHHHHH the unyielding urge to redesign Lucifer and Adam from HH cause what.

I've heard Adam's design is 'good' and it's supposed to be simple because he was the first man and is supposed to look like the average guy.

But I will ignore that if/when I redesign him because that is stupid.

It also goes in the topic about how HH romanticized Christianity in the show (a problem most shows have when they depict Christianity but I digress)

The reason it especially annoys me when hazbin is in question is because HH and HB want to focus a bit more on the characters and lore of the bible. And instead of trying to depict it correctly they just choose to romanticize it.

You hear this argument a lot with Greek myth as well. The Greek gods were assholes, so don't romanticize their actions PLEASE. (Ex: Disney's Hercules)

But the difference between Hercules and HH is that Hercules was always supposed to be a family friendly movie. While HH is of course ment for mature audiences.

Which means there's no reason to romanticize it like they did. And when I mean 'romanticize' I mean generally how they depicted heaven with all the pastels and how the cherubs are depicted in HB which all dials down to the art direction.

Also what they did to Saint Peter. Unforgivable.

If it's meant for mature audiences I'd also like to see a more mature representation of the Religion you're depicting.

Also the plot doesn't really make sense when you think about it? Like purgatory is right there?? Please acknowledge your source material lol????

It honestly shocks me cause all this time the purgatory hasn't been mentioned ONCE in the show. So does it even exist??

And if it doesn't... Well, that's just stinky writing-

And for the 'romanticizing' of Christianity (in the art direction more specifically), they could've done that. However in that case they shouldn't have focused so much on religion??

If heaven was only going to be mentioned here and there then sure you could do that. But if you're going to focus SO MUCH on it and going to make it so important to the lore then please treat it with respect?

And with Lucifer- I mean, that just shows how little the writers actually care about depicting the source material semi-accurately.

You give me the literal personification of evil and make him an uwu short king with depression.

I mean that just leads me to think Lucifer is really pathetic as a character when you know a thing or two about him in the bible.

When Lucifer TRICKED Eve into taking the fruit, he wasn't doing it to give her knowledge or something. He was doing it because he wasn't supposed to, because he wants to screw Adam and Eve over. Because he's bad.

I get that's whole thing about HH's Lucifer but still. Lucifer is not HH's character. He's much more than just a character at that.

And that type of approach is also in all honesty pretty disrespectful. You took the being that ruined humanity, that screwed it over, and turn him into... Whatever you call HH's Lucifer.

Like- I mean- Look at these two people and tell me they're supposed to be the same character

The Lucifer on the right looks intimidating and hateful while also being beautiful. Lucifer was the most beautiful angel so that makes sense. Not to mention the Lucifer on the right looks like someone who could kill you in a second.

Whilst the Lucifer on the left is a short, skinny, blond uwu-ass boy. I could take him a fight smh.

And yeah, short people aren't that intimidating I said it. I mean, I wouldn't be scared of my foe if they're the size of an eight year old-

Also, no, I'm sorry but this isn't intimidating at all

It's such an easy fix too. Just make him a bad but helpful character. Make him rude, let him do terrible things and be sadistic, that's the whole point of Lucifer. However, make situations where he has to help Charlie, not because he cares, but because he's too prideful to be made a fool of by heaven.

BOOM! A good way to make Lucifer an actually decent anti-hero of sorts.

Not to mention Lilith isn't an actual character in Christianity. She's only a character in Jewish Religion. Which is like- Yikes-

Please do not mix religions when interpreting them in a media, because that is really easy to do wrong and it's just generally something you shouldn't do.

Now keep in mind:

THIS IS JUST MY OPINION AND MY CONCERNS ON HAZBIN HOTEL. YOU DO NOT HAVE TO AGREE WITH A WORD I SAY.

If you like Hazbin that's genuinely awesome! I'm glad you found something you enjoy, continue doing that!! And honestly everything I say is just the art of adaptation.

These are just my personal takes that I can't keep to myself since I'm the type of person that can't keep shit in her head and has to voice everything-

Tam out-

[yuri-is-online]

That stuff about the guys being told about yuu's got me also thinking about being told about their myths, legends, and fairy tails. A world without magic still has all these stories about mers or fae....tho they prob shouldn't be told about some darker stuff...theres certainly an interesting one about how eating the flesh of a mermaid's tail will give eternal youth/life and a lot about fae eating or stealing kids.

You are very ok friend, the differences between our world's fairy tales and twst's is something I have been thinking about specifically because of things like this σ(￣、￣=) As long as you don't actively describe the process of eating other people I'm usually ok.

The mermaid flesh myth is more or less specific to Japan (at least i think) and while it does grant you eternal life it's also extremely taboo. You gain eternal life, but are more or less cursed and forced to live a solitary existence. Twisted Wonderland actually sort of references this in the first Halloween Event. As part of their plan to spook off the magicam monsters Azul tells them that mummified merfolk used to be seen as a sort of cure all by humans, which also is true of human mummies in our world, but we don't know if that's a real "fact" in this world or shit Azul made up to scare the guests. The octotrio in general do not seem to shy away from darker implications, so I could see them not being so disgusted they don't want to learn about it. (I could see Floyd maybe making a few rather tasteless jokes that get worse as Jade encourages him. Azul just wants to assure you that his flesh has no medicinal properties.)

As for the fae... I think Lilia would be the most interested in learning these things, which I say a lot in these posts but I want to point out that he places a big emphasis on learning about how other people see the world. He might not want to be active in Briar Valley politics anymore, but I could see him encouraging Yuu to talk about how their world sees fae with Malleus specifically so he can think about how to responsibly use his power. It's obvious to them that they don't eat children or steal them away, but why might people think that way? Lilia seems to think it's important to try and understand that, which makes me really like him tbh

What I would really want the octotrio's (and diasmonia gang to a lesser extent) opinion on is things like Selkies. I mentioned in my long fic musing that how Disney's Hercules and the myth of Orpheus and Eurydice play out are very different, but the same sort of goes for other love stories in our world. The concept of stealing yourself a wife is featured a lot in certain myths, and the couple doesn't always live happily ever after. I rather like the idea of a Yuu who despite being the more good aligned character is extremely resigned to tragedy and things ending baldy vs the twst boy their in love with thinking that specifically because they are in love with Yuu things should work out because in their world myths about love end happily. You could make that dynamic toxic, but I like to think of it in the sense that despite not being the best person, whoever you ship Yuu with will literally move the heavens and earth for them so they can get that happy ending.

Anyway have two songs that deal with the above topic (warning they are from very different genres):

[zndr315-blog]

what's YOUR favorite and least favorite Greek god and goddess? (And bonus topic; what's your opinion on controversy magnets Medea and Odysseus, or at least controversial in modern thought but ESPEICALLY during the eras they were originally created in?)

I, uh, I’m not really all that familiar with Greek mythology myself, I gravitate more towards Norse mythology, but I’ll answer this ask to the best of my ability.

Favorite Greek Goddess: Aphrodite. I like her free spirit. I like that she refuses be tied down or settle down. I like that she subscribes to the “free love” school of thought, kind of like a less douchey version of Zeus. I like that she refuses to accept her arranged marriage to Hephaestus, and I like that Hephaestus does eventually find love with Algaea after their divorce.

Favorite Greek God: Ares, I guess. This probably sounds like a weird statement, but I feel like Ares, alongside his romantic rival, Hephaestus, is kinda one of the underdogs of the Greek pantheon. From what I’ve read, and again, I’ve read very few of the Greek myths, most of the Myths featuring Ares only feature him to play up how terrible and cowardly and barbarous he is. The fact that most of his myths go this way actually kinda endeared me to him thanks to the underdog effect. When most of the Greek people and most of the Greek gods don’t like Ares, I can’t help but find myself rooting for him.

Now that I think about it, the fact that Aphrodite was willing to give him a chance when all the other Greek gods hated his guts is another point in her favor.

Also, a bunch of Greek mythology enthusiasts and Hellenic pagans (is that the right term?) on this website have written about how Ares was actually a pretty darn good dad, and surprisingly feminist for Ancient Greece. In contrast to Athena, who is supposed to be the goddess embodying the positive aspects of military strategy and warfare, yet was portrayed as stunningly misogynistic in certain myths (you know the ones I’m talking about). I guess that makes sense though, Ancient Greece was a pretty misogynistic place to live, so it’s only natural that the god they wanted everyone to hate and fear would be a feminist.

Least Favorite Greek Goddess: Hera. Zeus might be a serial adulterer (sometimes something worse than that, depending on the myth), but at least he’s not a psycho murderer who brazenly kills his spouses’ illegitimate lovers, their loved ones, and sometimes their loved ones’ loved ones (see what happened to Hercules and his first family). Hera is even worse in the versions where Zeus goes a step further that just adultery, because then she’s punishing people for crimes that are completely her husband’s.

Least Favorite Greek God: Poseidon. I had a hard time pick a least favorite male Greek god, so I’m just gonna trust @tyrantisterror, who’s way more knowledgeable on Greek Mythology than I am, when he says that Poseidon is the worst. His answer to this ask I sent him sums up why much better than I could have: https://www.tumblr.com/tyrantisterror/751954440616116224/hey-can-you-go-into-more-detail-on-why-you-think?source=share

I confess, I’m not familiar with controversies surrounding Medea and Odysseus or with Medea and Odysseus themselves.

[animemocha]

Anime's Greatest Chad: The Epic of Gilgamesh (Fate)

Gilgamesh is known as mankind's first hero.

But his story isn’t limited to just the Fate series. In fact, it’s shaped our modern lives more than you could ever imagine. 

If you’re here for a historically accurate depiction of the man who tried to conquer death, don’t leave. I’ve worked really hard to make this as accurate as possible.

And if you’re here for the story of the real anime Gigachad, and how he goes from an arrogant dictator to a benevolent king.

Then grab a drink and some snacks, because this, is the tale of the Hero of Heroes.

Roots of the King

Before we jump into the Epic of Gilgamesh, it’s worth taking a second to understand the roots of this iconic character and his influence on human culture and literature.

Mesopotamia was a region in 3100 BC, now covered by Iraq, Syria, and Turkey. It had its fair share of events, from the reigns of Sumerians and Akkadians to being eventually conquered by Alexander the Great in 332 BC.

But nestled within this timeline is a certain story that’s so profound, so raw, it's been echoing for millennia.

Now I know what you’re thinking.

"I'm here for anime, not a history lesson."

But the thing is, all evidence points to Gilgamesh actually existing 5000 years ago. And his legend is recorded in mankind’s oldest poem, the Epic of Gilgamesh.

The epic is thought to have been orally transmitted for generations before it was finally written down on clay tablets in the cuneiform script, which was one of the earliest systems of writing.

To put into context how old that is, it makes him almost 3000 years older than Jesus. 

But I wouldn’t take EVERYTHING that follows as being literal. Just know that some of the stuff is actually reported to have happened.

The Hero of Heroes

Gilgamesh is known as the King of all Heroes because every single myth that followed, every story, every legend from every culture and every religion in every country, it all borrows inspiration from mankind’s first hero.

The strongest examples of this are in the Biblical tale of Noah and the Greek myth of Hercules. And his story greatly influences modern literature too, like The Lord of the Rings and A Game of Thrones.

The story of the Epic of Gilgamesh was discovered on 12 clay tablets found among the ruins of the ancient library of Ashurbanipal, the last great king of the Neo-Assyrian Empire.

These tablets, inscribed with cuneiform script, are dated to around the 7th century BC but are believed to preserve much older stories that were likely first told orally and later written down.

These ancient tablets provide the most comprehensive version of the epic, but parts of the tale also appear on other scattered fragments found at different ancient sites across the Middle East.

There are actually two versions of Gilgamesh in the Fate series and they’re technically different people.

Well, they’re not, but they kind of are. 

Archer Gilgamesh

We’re in the year 2800 B.C., the Age of the Gods, where divine beings and humans walked the Earth together.

Some Gods were just, while others treated their subjects as slaves.

One day, a greater god called Sefar invaded the Earth, killing many of the Gods.

She was eventually defeated, but the damage was already done, and the rule the gods had over the humans had severely weakened.

In order to preserve their rule, the gods needed a keystone, a Wedge of Heaven that connected the rising humans to the fading gods.

That keystone was Gilgamesh.

Born from the Goddess Ninsun and the Human King Lugalbanda, Gilgamesh was two-thirds God, and one-third human, and ruled over humanity with the mission to observe and adjudicate.

The Fortress City

The city Gilgamesh ruled over was called Uruk, situated in present-day Iraq.

Yet, Uruk was far from ordinary.

It stood as a testament to human achievement, its towering walls not just architectural marvels but also echoes of the ambitions of its people.

Conceived under the watchful eye of Gilgamesh, these walls became more than mere defensive structures; they symbolised humanity's victory over nature. This audacious statement reflected Gilgamesh's own beliefs: that he stood above nature itself.

As evidence of its profound legacy, archaeologists pinpoint Uruk as one of humanity's earliest urban epicentres, with roots as deep as 4000 BCE. Its intricate temples, ziggurats, and canal systems all serve as relics of its storied past.

The Tyrannical King

This transcendence over nature, and the very walls that proclaimed it, became the lens through which Gilgamesh viewed himself.

To him, the limitations of divinity and humanity were but mere lines in the sand.

He believed that while no human could rival the gods, the gods themselves could never experience the complexities of human existence.

And since Gilgamesh was both human and God, he perceived himself not just above his subjects, but even the deities that breathed life into him.

His self-awareness was, in many ways, his crowning achievement.

Gilgamesh grew to become a cruel, arrogant, and oppressive tyrant who subjugated his people to forced labour and sexual abuse.

And just to be clear, I’m downplaying that a lot because even I don’t want to talk about some of the disgusting things he is historically reported to have done.

And it makes me wonder how he ever became a Heroic Spirit in the first place.

The Man Made of Clay

Naturally, the gods didn’t want this, but they couldn’t exactly do anything about it because, well, Gilgamesh just wouldn’t submit to them.

So instead, the King of God’s Anu, and the Goddess of Creation Aruru, created a monster out of clay called Enkidu, to punish the arrogant king.

But there was a problem.

You see, Enkidu didn’t have a soul, and so couldn’t make rational decisions.

So the gods sent a divine harlot to sleep with him. (And I’m not even joking.) 

After this, Enkidu takes human form, and his final appearance is very similar to the girl he slept with. And that’s why he has such a feminine form.

(It’s definitely not because having more hot girls leads to more sales)

Noble Phantasm's

Before we dive into what happened between Gilgamesh and Enkidu, let’s talk about Gilgamesh’s powers, or more specifically, Archer Gilgamesh’s powers.

In Fate, heroic spirits have Noble Phantasms, which are special weapons or abilities that embody the legend of that hero. For example, King Arthur’s Noble Phantasm, or rather, Artoria’s Noble Phantasm (Again, because more hot girls = more sales), is Excalibur, the sword of promised victory.

Gilgamesh has a lot of Noble Phantasms, and I mean, A LOT. It would take me a decade to cover them all, but I’ll talk about a few.

Sha Naqba Imuru:

The first is his ability Sha Naqba Imuru, or Clairvoyance, which lets him see into the future and see the truth of anything he looks at.

So in a fight, he knows exactly who his opponent is, what their abilities are, and how best to defeat them. Or if he’s playing chess, then he knows the correct move every time.

This ability is pretty OP but the thing is, Gilgamesh barely uses it.

Why?

Because he’s an arrogant prick.

He believes himself to be so powerful, that he doesn’t even need it most of the time.

And uhm… he’s kinda right...

Especially when you learn about his next Noble Phantasm.

The Gate of Babylon:

During his time as ruler of Uruk, Gilgamesh amassed every single weapon on Earth and stored them all in his treasury.

And I genuinely mean, every single weapon.

And the Gate of Babylon allows him to choose whichever weapon he wants, whenever he wants, wherever he wants. 

But that’s not how Gilgamesh uses it...

Every single weapon is fired out at a speed of Mach 10, and he has so many, that he could go his entire life firing them away without having to use a single one twice.

What makes this ability even more OP, is that these weapons aren’t just ordinary weapons. Every single one of them is a Noble Phantasm in itself. Artoria’s Excalibur, Lancer’s Gae Bolg, Hercules’ Nine Lives, Gilgamesh has all of these weapons in his treasury.

But how is that possible if these heroes came AFTER Gilgamesh?

Well. That’s because they’re prototypes. 

I mentioned earlier that almost every legend told today is in some way inspired by the Epic of Gilgamesh. And in the same way, every weapon used today has a design that is somehow based on those in his treasury.

He owns every weapon that existed and owns every weapon that is yet to exist.

And don’t get me wrong.

While they’re technically prototypes, it is said that if you compare the original weapon to Gilgamesh’s prototype, the original will look like a fake, that’s how well-made the prototype is.

Not only that, but in a fight, the prototype will beat the original every time.

Now that doesn’t mean that if Gilgamesh were to use Excalibur and fight Artoria in a 1 on 1 swordfight that he would win.

He’d probably lose.

And that’s because he’s a jack of all trades but master of none.

Gilgamesh is a brilliant swordsman. But these other heroic spirits have spent their entire lives mastering a single weapon, and thus can use them to their full potential, which Gilgamesh cannot.

That being said. Gilgamesh DOES have one weapon that only he can use, one so powerful that it defies reality itself. Buuuuut I’ll talk about that later.

The Great Battle

Enkidu eventually confronts Gilgamesh outside of the Temple of Uruk, stating that he needed to be punished for disobeying the gods.

But Gilgamesh isn’t one to let anyone talk down on him.

So he engages Enkidu in a battle that lasts days on end.

And this was pretty new to Gil. It was the first time he ever came across someone equal in strength to him, which forced him to use his Gate of Babylon.

Gilgamesh was furious that someone had caused him to waste his weapons, he was humiliated.

But eventually, he stopped caring, and he even started to enjoy himself after finally finding someone worthy to be in his presence.

This battle lasted so long and was so fearsome that Gil exhausted every single weapon in his treasury, but by this point, Enkidu was severely weakened and Gilgamesh had won.

But instead of finishing him off, Gilgamesh extended a hand to him.

He saw Enkidu as an equal, and Enkidu ended up becoming Gil’s first friend, his only friend.

Friendship

One day, Gilgamesh set his sights upon defeating the Beast of the God’s, Humbaba.

But the thing is, the God’s hadn’t told him to do this, and he wasn’t doing it for the sake of his people either, because, well… he didn’t care about them.

Gilgamesh simply saw Humbaba as something that needed to be removed from the Earth in order to see out his mission.

Gilgamesh had always disobeyed the God’s so that he could be far removed from them, and he wanted his people to hate him so that he could be far removed from them, because that was the only way he could be truly neutral, because that was the mission for which he was born.

In this sense, you could argue that the reason that Gilgamesh was such an abhorrent dictator, was because he didn’t want to get close to his subjects, so that he could remain impartial.

(I don’t know how much truth there is to that and it could simply be a result of the story being altered as it was passed from generation to generation.)

Either way, seeing Gilgamesh’s resolve, Enkidu pledges his loyalty to him, and the two go on numerous adventures together, which ends with Gilgamesh becoming the wealthiest and most powerful king on Earth.

He amassed so much power that even the gods had no choice but to acknowledge it. One Goddess in particular, Ishtar, the Goddess of Fertility, asked Gilgamesh to marry her.

The King's Loss

Marrying a Goddess was actually one of Gilgamesh’s duties as it would see the continued reign of the gods over the humans, but Gilgamesh said no.

Enraged, Ishtar went to her father Anu, and asked him to unleash the Divine Beast Gugalanna on Uruk.

This divine beast devastated the lands for 7 years before Gilgamesh and Enkidu were finally able to defeat it. But this came at a price.

Ishtar asked the gods to sentence Gilgamesh and Enkidu to their deaths. While the Gods agreed, they couldn’t do anything to Gil, but they could to Enkidu, because he was their direct creation. 

Enkidu’s clay body weakened and weakened until it would eventually return to the very Earth from which it had come.

Gilgamesh stayed by his friend's side until the very end.

While this event is not shown directly shown in the anime, it is mentioned in the original Sumerian poem from three thousand years ago, translated as follows:

“It saddens me. It saddens me, Gil. Who would understand you after I die? Who else would march by your side? My friend… when I think you will live on all alone henceforth, I can’t help but shed tears. But don’t be saddened. For I am but another of your treasures.” - Enkidu

It’s honestly a rather heartbreaking end to their friendship.

One would have thought that the arrogant and prideful King of Heroes would have had a rather stoic response. But history says otherwise:

"You do have worth. You alone have this worth. I hereby declare: In all this world, only one shall be my friend. Thus---not for all eternity shall his worth ever change." - Gilgamesh

And with this, Enkidu returned to the Earth, leaving nothing behind but Gilgamesh's thunderous cry.

And for those of you who have watched Fate Zero, you’ll know that Gilgamesh kept this promise, even thousands and thousands of years later.

The Herb

After Enkidu’s death, Gilgamesh realised something.

As he was one-third human, he too would one day die.

If this were to happen, he would not be able to fulfil his dream of watching over humanity until the end of time, and it also meant he would not be able to carry out his purpose as the Wedge of Heaven.

And thus, for the first time in his existence, the king of heroes felt fear.

And this brings us to the core of the ancient Sumerian poem.

Gilgamesh, wanting to beat death, set out on a journey to find the only treasure that he didn’t have in his vault—the Herb of Immortality.

What does this herb do?

Well, it’s in the name so figure it out for yourselves.

Gilgamesh wandered the Earth for several decades in search of this herb, and eventually, stumbles upon a wise sage in the underworld that guides him in the right direction.

Sure enough, Gil finds the herb and is absolutely euphoric, because he has just beaten death, and all that’s left for him to do, is return to Uruk, and see over his people until the end of time.

Before beginning his journey back home, Gil decides to wash off in a nearby spring, where he first places the herb on the ground. However, as fate would have it, a serpent stumbles upon the bathing Gilgamesh, and after seeing the herb, it eats it.

And a little fun fact. It’s thought that the Sumerians and many of the cultures that followed, believed that snakes have the ability to shed their skin because this serpent ate the herb of immortality, giving snakes the ability to be reborn.

Much like the biblical tale of Adam, Eve, and the serpent, this story serves as a stark reminder of life's impermanence and the inevitable reality of death.

By losing the herb, Gilgamesh confronts the bitter truth: immortality remains beyond human grasp.

After realising what happened, you’d think Gilgamesh would be upset, or that he would be outraged, but, he wasn’t.

He realised that death was unavoidable and that by dying, he wasn’t abandoning his duty, he was completing it, because it was the most human thing he could do.

He realised that you didn’t die because you were human, but you were human because you died. 

And with his Sha Naqba Imuru, Gilgamesh was able to see into the future, and what he saw was exactly what he loved about the humans in the first place.

He saw the continued growth of the human race, the way their knowledge developed, and the way they used their resources to reach for the stars and beyond.

With this new outlook, Gilgamesh returned to Uruk as a changed man.

Caster Gilgamesh

While Archer Gilgamesh was an arrogant tyrant that did disgusting things, Caster Gilgamesh was kind, generous, and benevolent.

He loved his people so much that he actually gave away all the swords in his treasury. 

You see, these two versions of Gilgamesh are still the same person. It’s just that Archer Gilgamesh is the version of Gilgamesh we see before Enkidu’s death, and Caster Gilgamesh is the one we see after the death of his friend.

And yes, technically, Caster Gilgamesh is weaker than Archer Gilgamesh, and the biggest reason for that is the fact that he gave away so many of his weapons, weakening his Gate of Babylon.

But Caster Gilgamesh also had a noble phantasm that Archer Gilgamesh didn’t, Melammu Dingir, or King’s Signal Cannon. 

If you’ve ever seen the movie Three Hundred, it’s a lot like that. But except for arrows, he’s firing every weapon he has at his disposal.

As I mentioned, Caster Gilgamesh was much more generous than Archer Gilgamesh, and he gave away his treasures for them to be used in cannons, should the city of Uruk need protection.

As such, this Noble Phantasm is classed as an Anti-Army ability, firing every weapon mankind had in one go.

But if you think that’s powerful, there’s one more noble phantasm I haven’t yet mentioned. But this one didn’t belong to Caster Gilgamesh, it belonged to Archer Gilgamesh. 

The Sword of Rupture

Imagine a weapon so mighty that it not only holds power beyond comprehension but also taps into the very essence of our universe's creation. 

Enter Ea, the sword of rupture.

But is it even correct to call it a sword?

Ea is the pinnacle of Noble Phantasms and is the strongest weapon in Gilgamesh’s treasury and it is unique to only him.

You might think it kind of looks like a sword, but it actually isn’t. It was designed before the concept of a “sword” even existed and so, it’s in its own class.

To even summon Ea, Gilgamesh first has to unlock the depths of his treasury with a key that only he possesses, and after that, we see the mere act of obtaining Ea disrupts reality itself.

Designed intricately, each section of Ea represents the Heaven’s, the Earth, and the Underworld, with the sections rotating in opposite directions, echoing the universe’s vast expanse.

Gilgamesh claims that the sword "knows the truth" of the world where it once existed, and by using its power, it is able to bestow its knowledge upon others.

The weapon holds memories of a time even before the planet existed, a time when life, as we understand it, couldn't have survived. The memory of our universe's raw, primordial form, a chaotic blend of scorching heat and biting cold, of molten lava and dense gas, long before life as we know it began.

This primordial memory is embedded deep within our very DNA, a distant echo from eons past, now faded from our tales and consciousness.

Yet, to those who gaze upon the sword, this deep-seated, almost forgotten knowledge comes rushing back.

To Gilgamesh, Ea is more than just a weapon.

It’s an entity.

He treats it like a person. He talks to it, respects it, and unleashes its might only against those he deems truly worthy.

This isn't just any weapon; it's a creation from even before our planet's dawn, crafted by an unknown God and was once used to split the Heavens and Earth.

It is classed as an anti-universe noble phantasm with power unlike any other and its ability is called “Enuma Elish”, and to use the ability, Gilgamesh first recites an incantation, which is as follows:

“I will tell you of the beginning. Heaven and Earth split, nothingness congratulated creation, my Sword of Rupture cleaved the world!"

"Mortar of the stars, heaven's hell is the eve of creation's celebration. Now you shall die and be silent..."

This is actually another Babylonian tale from thousands of years ago titled “The Story of Creation”, buuuuuuuut I'll cover that another time.

I know that I’ve been describing Ea as a “weapon”, but it isn’t that at all. In fact, that barely scratches the surface of its true nature.

It's not an exaggeration when I say that Enuma Elish has the power to tear the universe apart. Yet, even such an unparalleled force had its moment of surprise.

(There is one recorded instance of it being stopped, something which shocked even Gilgamesh, but that’s a story for another time...) 

Gilgamesh is only seen using this ability on two occasions, once against Rider and another against Tiamat, a primordial deity that almost destroyed the world and was so powerful, that even Gilgamesh couldn’t defeat her. Or rather, Caster Gilgamesh couldn’t. Because like I said before, Archer Gilgamesh is on an entirely different level.

Reunion

We see Gilgamesh use Ea’s full strength against Enkidu, not in their first battle, but rather, when they met again thousands of years later in Fate Strange/Fake.

Here, the world itself is sucked into the void created by the sword, and it begins tearing apart. But Enkidu has his own version of Enuma Elish and thus was able to hold the World together.

The battle is described as follows by those that observed it:

"I felt as if the World was born seven times, and destroyed seven times." - The Sacred Prostitute.

This meeting here is honestly, beautiful. And I know that’s a weird way to describe what is essentially a war to the death between mages, but that’s all I can say about it.

We know how much Gilgamesh values Ea. He is disgusted by the thought of someone unworthy even laying their eyes on it. And it’s so rare that we ever see him even using it.

But when he realises that his opponent is his first and only friend, he pulls out Ea with zero hesitation. [Say it with slight laughter]

In fact, this is the happiest we ever see Gilgamesh. He spends the entire battle laughing his heart out, and we see Enkidu, with a hand to his ears, admiring the sound of his friend's laughter as if it were a song. 

It’s a tragedy that Gilgamesh will never be able to see Enkidu again. But that’s life. As sad as it is to admit, we all have people we care about that will be gone from our lives forever.

It’s no wonder that Gilgamesh’s greatest treasure wasn’t any of his riches, any of his weapons, the holy grail, or even Ea.

It was his friendship with Enkidu.

And with that, I’ve covered a fraction of The Epic of Gilgamesh. It took a lot of work and there’s a lot I couldn’t talk cover. I’ll probably make another post dedicated to Ea and another on Enkidu, but I’ll warn you, be prepared to cry.

psst... if you liked this essay, check out the full video essay on my youtube channel!

And I don't normally add this, but if I can be a teenie bit selfish on this one occasion:

Please check out the video (if you'd so graciously lend me a few minutes of your time) because it's by far the hardest I've ever worked on a video and I wholly believe the end result is really good. You can always leave a dislike and tell me how to improve if you don't like it lol

- love ya

[princess-ibri]

Are there any delight ideas of how you would interpret the Hades and Persephone Myth in Hercules?

I kinda like to know on how or what version would you go for on how Zag and Mel's Parents met.

Also, have you ever heard of Another Offspring who's supposedly Hades' Daughter that was once mentioned in "Suda" who's called "Macaria"? She's different from Melinoe who is said to be the Goddess of Blessed Death and even a Concert towards Thanatos.

I know that the original idea for the Hercules tv show was to have had Hades and Demeter be exs and Persephone was their kid in a custody battle which would have been a clever way to work around the kidnap aspect, but I'm kinda glad they didn't do that cuz it does leave room for my own interpretation x)

I could 100% see Disney Hades kidnapping Persephone but Disney Zeus wouldn't back up that claim he's too nice a guy, he'd much more likely help Demeter stomp on Hades.

So I think maybe how I'd do it is take a page from some modern interpretations were they reorient the myth to be about how a girl has to break from her mother to become a woman and Persephone chooses to go with/stay with Hades.

So in my hypothetical Hercules TV show episode:

Persephone is tired of Demeter kinda of helicopter parenting her even though she's basically an adult god now, and just wants to get out from under her wing for a while.

She happens one day to see Hades busting his way out from the Underworld on route to do some evil shenanigans (or possibly just getting back from some and getting a flat chariot wheel or something this is Disney Hercules x) and in a fit of pique she sneaks into the back of his chariot and so gets taken back to the Underworld.

Hades is less then thrilled to find her there, especially since her whole pastel flower motif really clashes with his doom and gloom decor, and tries his best to scare her away but Persephone actually finds the Underworld incredibly interesting and slowly her appreciation for his loathsome domain starts to wear Hades down--And it doesnt hurt that she is definitely very pretty x).

Cue Hades vehemently denying he's growing feelings for this little flower power goddess possibly with a dark parody of "I Wont Say I'm in Love" where Pain and Pain get repeatedly blasted.

Meanwhile Demeter is frantic looking for Persephone and the world is starting to freeze over because she's not doing her godly duties. So Hercules of course volunteers to try and help find Persephone. And eventually they run into Hecate, who seeing an opportunity to make trouble for Hades and possibly nap his job, tells them that Hades has taken Persephone down to the Underworld.

Technically true but told in a way that makes it seem all the worse for Hades who for once has done nothing wrong and sends Demeter spiraling as she thinks about what horrors her poor baby could be going through.

Meanwhile Hades and Persephone are dancing to a dark parody of Beauty and the Beast badly sung by Pain and Panic or something.

Well Hercules once more heads down to the Underworld to rescue Persephone while Demeter goes to Mount Olympus to get Zeus to flashfry Hades. But when he gets there he sees that Persephone and Hades actually seem happy together and wonders if there's been a misunderstanding, manages to sneak over and talks with Persephone and lets her know whats been happening above ground with everyone freezing since Demeter's been looking for her.

Persephone realizes she'll have to go back and tells this to Hades, who of course is more then ready to let the whole world freeze as that just doubles his property values but Persephone pulls her Demeter voice on him and he hastily agrees she should probably let her mom know she's fine.

And at that point Hermes shows up to let them know anybody who's not already dead should probably clear out as Zeus is getting ready to basically nuke the Underworld to make Demeter happy to save the Earth from freezing( and the gods from starving to death when there's no more sacrifices)

Hades of course freaks out about that and Persephone not wanting her new found love to get burned to a crisp hastily demands/Demeter voices Hermes into marrying them. Hades is both flattered and confused but figures hey they're all about to die anyway and he'd rather die married then a bachelor-- so he promptly strong arms Herc into be the witness and Pain and Panic are the ring-bearer/ flower girl--so now none of them can run away either.

Hermes does so in the quickest ceremony possible which they top off with pomegrante martinis and then Persephone tells him to fly up and tell everyone she's married to Hades so she 's tied to the Underworld now and they fry her as well if they continue the attack --oh also Hercules is here too.

(Imagine all this time Zeus has been having Hephestus super charge his like, mega lightning bolt or something)

So the attack is quickly called off, and once they get the all clear, the impromptu wedding party heads up to the surface and tells her mother that if she promises to unfreeze everything then she'll come and stay with her for the summer so she wont be alone.

Demeter agrees, smites Hades with a literally frosty brush off when he tries to make a "mumsy-in-law" comment, but Persephone gives him a kiss which thaws him out and Happy Ending

(They'll definitely need couples councling later on and by the time he's taking over Olympus they're on their way to geting a divorce but hey that's life sometimes :/ )

***

And yes I have heard of Macaria! If this was my own Greek Myth retelling I would have included her but since I was going off of what Disney has I decided to only use Melinoe as Disney Hades only has two mentioned kids and "Mel" sounded closest to "Mal" for the Descendants reference

[demeterdefence]

Previous anon here:

Hmm agreed, it's not JUST her fault but it sucks that our current cultural landscape keeps falling into the same trap of trying to make something woke, feminist, progressive, what have you but winds up so much worse instead

It's the same issue with the disney remakes, failing so hard to update the story when its original incarnation was more feminist without even trying. For example: I know a lot of people love the 2015 remake of Cinderella, and I've seen people say it's the best live-action adaptation but I will NEVER forget that, while the movie hammers home the lesson "be kind, always" they had the nerve to insert a line that says something like: It's a good thing Cinderella's stepmother was cruel, because otherwise she never would've met the prince and like EXCUSE ME?!

I think MOST people would rather have a safe home-environment where you weren't bullied, demeaned, and forced to work over the vague possibility of a special someone coming to rescue me from this situation...

Anyway this was about lore olympus... XD

i think you have a really valid point! and it circles back to how rachel is just one of many people who insists on a flawed perception of something, thinking it's "better" because it's "modern"

like with rachel's lolita fetish or the gross racism within lore olympus, this really does speak to a wider issue - the fact that webtoons promotes the content and publishes it to such a wide audience, who is so often comprised of younger teens who don't yet realize why this is an issue. i can only imagine ancient greek women who adored the hymn of demeter, finding out that modern times vilifies her and glorifies persephone's kidnapping as some kind of romance. and there are ways to portray things in a modern setting, or to create romance in a story that is more or less devoid of it; the trick is, you need to know the originals to make a retelling. one of my favourite movies is disney's hercules, which is so far from the original lore of heracles it's pretty much an entirely separate story - but it's done with such love and so many nods to the canon myth that you can acknowledge this is an offshoot inspired by the myths.

rachel's comic is just so utterly devoid of any kind of love for the original myths and legends. she uses such surface-level interpretations of the characters that removes any complexity from their motivations, and thus the story as a whole. hades and persephone are given depth, supposedly, but zeus being forced to kill his own father, or why he's a sex addict, gets thrown into the trash for cheap shots. demeter's trauma in being made for war, watching her sister torn apart, watching her mother killed, sexually abused by two of her friends, and abused / vilified by hades for centuries, who then goes on to marry her teenage daughter, is tossed away for demeter to be "overbearing mom eugh."

like, rachel wants all the modern glitz and glam of the modern era, but that's it. she does not want to tell a story - she wants to draw her ocs in hot clothes having bad sex.

[deathmetalunicorn1]

Interesting fact in Norse Mythology, Thrud is Thor’s Daughter, but in RoR Thrud’s half human, so my question is… do it you think Thor had a Human Lover? (If he is Thrud’s father)

I’m ready to throw hands (If I don’t see him react to Thrud’s death I’m gonna slap him) Thrud’s such a pretty girl and a big sweetheart (Her Maiden Face was too cute!)

Like, how exactly do the Valkyries work? (Are they related RELATED or because they’re Demigods they find solace and develop a bond with each other deeper than blood because they’re discriminated for being half human?) Hercules is a Demigod but he wasn’t born that way (And is liked by the Gods, as shown by their cheering and he had a plushy toy some children own I. want. one.)

So many questions, and not enough answers! (It doesn’t help that the Manga is released monthly, but luckily we now have a DILF to make the wait more tolerable 😂🥹)

I know a few weird facts in some mythology (I wanted to take a Mythology class for a elective but I didn’t because all they ever really teach is Greek, Norse and Egypt, then repeat, which sorta kills it, when you want to learn Native, Japanese, Hindu, etc, etc.)

Sorry if I’m being weird, when I’m comfortable with someone I reveal just how weird I can be (I like your writing, it feels therapeutic and your blog has a nice energy to it, like when you finally come home after a long time away and you can just relax the second you open the front door) I’m so weird…

I have ADHD and Autism so I can keep going on a subject or rapidly change it like when your flipping through channels 💀

Hello my darling one!

It is very interesting to see if RoR follows actual mythology with Thrud being Thor's daughter, however, I've noticed with RoR that a lot of the mythology isn't exactly the same, according to the myths we all know, such as Adamas and Zerofuku being added in.

According to some mythology, the Valkyries were all princesses, who when they died they took up the mantle of the choosers of the slain, so I think that while not related, they are sisters as they are all kindred spirits, being similar in nature and finding kinship with each other.

So due to them being humans first, and then ascending to be demi-gods, I think that's why they are discriminated against.

However, in volume one of the manga, it touched on how Brunnhilde, in mythology, was turned into a human, after disobeying Odin, as the myth goes. She is a bit more sympathetic for humans because she was a human for a time after being in Valhalla (either just this once or was a human who ascended then went back to being a human, details aren't clear yet).

I agree with the questions, because more keep popping up, like why exactly is Seigfried in prison? The big one I have, is who is pulling the strings for this tournament, as in, who is the one who first told the gods to destroy the humans? I'm thinking there is something shifty going on in the shadows, because Brunnhilde knew the gods were going to destroy the humans without her intervention and Ragnarok, so something is going on.

I wish that it would update more frequently, at least twice a month, because I need to see more of G.I. DILF!!

Good insight my dear one, I like having discussions like this!

[forbiddensonoftheseagod]

“I know, Jace, I know,” (he muttered strained, swallowing up the sob threatening to leave his lips, swallowing up the apology. He’s swallowed more than he can chew, and while that’s not how the phrase goes, he wouldn’t say he has bitten anything. He’s been fed this inedible product before, he can’t spit it out, he swallows it up until what’s left in his stomach being nothing but a hole, the one in space could be seen as just a mouse hole, his body was carved with a chunk of it missing and nothing could fill that up. Hallow, hallow and afraid, two things you don’t hear when in myths about Greek mythology, once or twice, but not this much).

(He’s a disgrace to whatever heritage he belongs in anymore, this messed up family tree that can’t uphold anything but agony, nothing but bitterness engraved and webbed to the children’s their head. Everyone thinks it’s fun or cool to be this, to be a child of such a powerful source, think it’s easy to deal with… Heartache. Look at him, look at him and instead of seeing his father, why not see him? Why not see that he’s in misery, why not see that one more time will be the last time for him? Why not see that he’s not Hercules, that he’s not Perseus, he’s not Theseus, he’s not Achilles, he’s not them).

(It’s complicated to ask even the smallest thing, to ask to be a kid again, to be happy again, free again. Percy wants to be happy, he really wants to be happy again, to be with his mother again, his little sister, maybe even Paul?)

(He’s not a violent dog, he doesn’t know why he bites).

(His fingertips tapped against his biceps, lips tutted and ocean blue eyes glancing away from him, seemingly a bit nervous. Who can blame Percy, really, for being nervous or for anything, truly. The boy doesn’t know better, didn’t know better than anyone else, for such matter. He’ll be quite honest, between him and Jason, the question for a hug more deserved would be a battle).

(Forbidden children who weren’t meant to be born, to be the most hunted down by monsters gandering to cease them, seeking amusement in the agony bestowed upon them. Neither boys- pardon, men, asked to be such way. For the shore to be the subtle brush of touch his father can provide, to the white bolts flickering between his digits, it’s not what he wanted. They didn’t ask for this to be their life, witness their loss before the blue globes to see their godly heritage in them).

“So, how have you been?” (It was a stupid question, a stupid question coming from a stupid boy asking another stupid boy. This entire thing going with everyone, from the wars to the deathbeds to act as though neither happened, it was stupid. Gods above them laughing as though this were so comical, taking enjoyment in the distraught feeling implanted by them. Father dearest may be an exception, though doesn’t apply to the rest of them, the rest of them whom are selfish and cold).

(Hm, perhaps at some point, to some extent there was a reason the betrayal was perhaps… Justifiable in a way- okay, no, Perseus…)

(Lets not…)

@forbiddensonoftheseagod

I've been uhh good. Well good isn't true but there weren't many words that could convey what Jason was feeling, he was sure of that

[thebibliomancer]

Essential Avengers: Avengers #282: CAPTIVES

August, 1987

Prisoners of the GODS!

In one sense, prisoners of the gods, yes, that is going on. The Avengers are clearly imprisoned by one or more gods.

But did you ever consider that from the gods’ perspective, its a gotta catch ‘em all of the Avengers?

I mean, Neptune (geez Marvel, stick to either Roman or Greek pantheons ffs) went out of his way to catch Namor and Namor hasn’t been on the team since before the Masters of Evil thing.

That’s completionist energy.

Wait... is the Collector behind this? Yeah, he died but when has that ever stopped anyone in comics for long?

ANYWAY

Last times on Avengers: the Masters of Evil attacked the Avengers and managed to smash up the mansion and beat Hercules into a coma. There was a roster shake up as Thor and She-Hulk cycled back in, Dr Druid joined for some reason, Wasp went on a well-deserved vacation, and Hercules was in a coma.

That last point is the sticking point of this arc, it seems. Because Hermes kidnapped Hercules out of the hospital and then lured Thor to Olympus so Hephaestus and Ares could beat him up. While Hermes, Dionysus, and Artemis beat up the Avengers on Earth, partially by tricking She-Hulk into eating a drugged cherry Italian ice.

With the Avengers sufficiently beat the shit up, Zeus appeared to tell them they were on his shit list for letting Hercules make bad decisions and get beaten into a coma.

And rather than seek revenge on the ones who did the beating, Zeus is taking it out on the Avengers.

Because Zeus is a dick.

The story continues!

The story continues with Namor minding his own business for a change, just enjoying hanging out with his new wife Marrina (oh hey, congrats!) when the ocean goes nuts with the shaking.

Namor saves some people that rocks fell on and then swims out with Marrina to investigate.

They notice some Atlantean refugees fleeing and go to help them because they’re the cool guys brave enough to join Namor in exile rather than live in Attuma ruled Atlantis.

But then Neptune pops up out of the ground, yells at Namor for questioning his will when Namor asks about the earthseaquakes, and then drags Namor down to hell.

Saying “that happened” can be a cheap joke but really, the Atlantean refugees and Marrina standing around looking at the crack in the ground that a god popped out of and then sank back into after kidnapping their king has peak “that happened” energy.

Of course, I was joking about Neptune dragging Namor to hell.

He brings him to Hades instead.

Because god of oceans, he can just pop right out of the River Styx.

Neptune expresses some regret that things gotta be how they’re being and that Namor deserves better than this (open to debate). Why, if it weren’t for Neptune’s covenant with Zeus, Neptune never would have reverse raptured Namor to Hades.

But the brotherly covenant is a thing so Neptune turns Namor over to Cerberus to bring to Pluto.

EXCEPT HOLD ON

THIS INDIVIDUAL MAY BE CALLED CERBERUS BUT HE IS NO CERBERUS OF MINE!

Greek god dammit, Stan Lee and Jack Kirby, are there no monsters of myth you won’t just turn into a grimacing dude in Kirbarian armor??

Boo!

Anyway.

Namor comes to while I Refuse To Call Him Cerberus is hauling him across the dismal fields of Hades like a sack of damp potatoes.

The Abstastic Avenger slips loose and tries to choke Not Cerberus with his shackles despite the dude wearing a helmet that covers his throat. And Cerberus just breaks the chain anyway so the whole exercise was a little pointless.

Well, almost pointless.

Namor was looking for answers and he got answers and stepped on to boot.

Namor: Tell me now -- who are you? Where am I? Why have I been brought here? Speak!”

Not Cerberus: “You think to threaten Cerberus?! Truly you are bereft of all reason! Know ye, mortal, that Cerberus is guardian of Hades, land of the unliving! ‘Tis there you be... by the grace of my Master Pluto and the will of Zeus!”

Namor throws Not Cerberus off of himself and then decides that really what he needs to do now is take a nice refreshing dip.

Except the nearest water is the River Styx and its full of monsters and it flows into the River Phlegethon WHICH IS ON FIRE!

He’s having a bad time.

Namor washes up unconscious on the shore observed by a shadowy figure.

But this is apparently one of those beneficent shadowy figures because when Namor regains consciousness again, he finds that his shackles are gone and burns that should have taken months to heal have gone away with a quick nap.

(Is Namor an JRPG character?)

(No.)

The shadowy figure introduces himself, or rather doesn’t introduce himself, but at least announces his presence and explains to Namor that he healed him with various poultices.

Oh, I see. Just an ordinary doctor passing by, is it?

The mysterious cloaked figure who pointedly does not tell Namor his name also tells Namor that he was brought to Hades to join the Avengers in captivity and WOULDN’T YOU KNOW IT, the Avengers are being held in the garrison of the accursed Fortress Tartarus just to the right.

Can’t miss it.

Then the mysterious cloaked figure vanishes into the mists rather than answer any more questions.

Mysterious cloaked figure, vanishing into the mists: “I can say no more. The fate of the Avengers now depends on you! Do not fail them, Namor... do not fail”

I guess people don’t become mysterious cloaked and/or shadowy figures unless they love drama.

Anyway.

Namor heads to the doom fortress and finding no entrances makes one by punching the crap out of a drainage duct.

Where he immediately runs into some soldiers of Hades. Who he immediately beats up because he’s Namor. He also steals the armor off of one because yes, we’re going full... whatever you call this. Death Star infiltration? Its a trope and it definitely predates Star Wars.

Before long, Armored Variant Namor finds the deepest dungeon that the Avengers are being held in.

And I guess the order of the day is just random torture? The gods beat up the Avengers and threw them to Hades and now they’re just being randomly tortured?

Captain America is attached to a big wheel, Dr Druid is here for some reason and hanging from shackles, Captain Marvel is in a metal sarcophagus which is blocking her powers, and in an effective but cruel twist She-Hulk is chained to Black Knight.

Maybe the dungeons of Hades didn’t have anything strong enough to hold her but by chaining her to Black Knight, they made it so the only way She-Hulk can bust herself loose is to tear Black Knight in half.

Afraid of the torturers using the imprisoned Avengers as hostages, Namor pretends he’s just another guard who wants to steal the spoils for himself.

He punches all the guards who are pawing over what they took from the Avengers, claims that its all his now, and dismissively throws away Cap(tain America)’s shield as gaudy.

It just so happens that the throw bonks the shield off the chains holding She-Hulk and Black Knight together but nobody notices that over what a dick disguised Namor is being.

His secret superpower is taking up so much oxygen in the room that nobody notices anything but ‘and now here’s this asshole.’

The torturer that was about to torture Black Knight goes to attack disguised Namor with Black Knight’s blade but freed by the shield bonk, Black Knight does that thing he can do that he doesn’t get enough chances to do.

He summons the extremely cursed Ebony Blade out of the torturer’s hands and into his own. And then he knocks out the torturer with the flat of the blade.

While She-Hulk joins disguised Namor in beating the crap out of the guards, Black Knight rushes over to cut Cap(tain America) loose from the big wheel. But Cap(tain America) tells him to free Cap(tain Marvel) first instead.

In fairness, she’s maybe their biggest gun.

Black Knight figures that the metal sarcophagus is probably enchanted to contain Monica but luckily Black Knight’s extremely cursed sword can cut through it.

Captain Marvel is ready to get some revenge for being locked in a box but She-Hulk and Namor didn’t leave any guards left unpunched.

But the breakout isn’t complete as Dr Druid notices that Thor isn’t in this dungeon so now they gotta go find him.

Of course, that just makes Namor wonder ‘hey actually what the here is going on here?’

Because he still has no idea what the plot is. He’s just been acting on punchstinct.

Of also course, the Avengers had no idea they were in Hades so everyone is a little surprised right now.

Captain Marvel does her Avengers chairperson duty of expositing the previous issue, to fill in Namor.

Actually though, the recap is only one panel and one additional narrative caption. The rest of the flashback is new content.

Pretty neat although it does mean that the entire previous issue gets smooshed down to ‘Hercules’ family ambushed us and took us to Olympus so Zeus could yell at us. What a dick.’

And yeah, what a dick.

When Zeus blames the Avengers for Hercules’ condition, Captains America and Marvel defend themselves by saying it was Hercules’ own dumbass that got his dumb ass beaten to near death.

Which... maybe not the best tone to take to a grieving, vengeful father?

Zeus: “Lies! I have learned how Hercules suffered your taunts and torments! I will not hear the lies of mortals!”

Thor suggests that maybe the truth will sound more believable coming from a fellow god and longtime friend to Hercules like.... well, Thor.

But Zeus takes the bold move of claiming that Thor isn’t Thor because hey what’s with that new armor. Also, even if you are Thor, screw you Thor, mighty Zeus don’t listen to a god that’s “so servile to mortal beings”.

Thor gets angry at being called servile and just FLEXES out of his bonds, then runs over and punches Ares who had the misfortune of being the wrong extremely punchable face at the wrong time and place.

But Zeus just zaps Thor, which I presume freezes or knocks out Thor. Dunno, flashback ends.

Either way, that’s how they got from last issue to now. And the bonds the Olympians put on the Avengers prevented them from using their powers. The Olympians knocked them out and then next thing they knew, they were in a dungeon.

Namor blames himself for being absent because maybe if he’d been around, Hercules wouldn’t have gotten so hurt.

Which Black Knight dismisses as ‘no, dumbass would still have managed it.’

The Avengers run into a massive army of Hades’ soldiers? Goons? Guards?

Why does Hades have so many employees??

The Avengers start making short work of them because c’mon. They’re a faceless army of mooks. They exist to make the Avengers look cool.

She-Hulk even hits one dude with another dude.

The only thing they have going for them is numbers. Thousands of numbers.

But that’s just a ‘don’t let them surround you but do keep doing your cool moves’ moment, not a ‘we should retreat because we’re massively outnumbered.’

Dr Druid even gets to make some of the warriors see an illusory image of him to get them to hit each other.

Pretty good.

I like that his powers require him to be a little creative.

Black Knight continues being a dude with a sword who doesn’t like hitting people with a sword. But he can hit other peoples’ weapons with your weapons to break their weapons.

The things that cannot be cut by his Ebony Blade, forged by Merlin, are next to none.

Captain America takes a moment out of punching dudes to watch Namor punch dudes and pines for him to rejoin the Avengers.

I swear, nobody likes Namor more than Captain America does.

And She-Hulk punches dudes but then grabs one and demands to know where Thor is.

This is the army of the dead so do they have anything to fear from her? I mean, aside from pain. Nobody wants to be punched by a Hulk multiple times.

Apparently the guy does tell She-Hulk where Thor is because the scene cuts to where Pluto is keeping him prisoner by having a giant rock block placed on top of him.

Is this comeuppance for all the people he’s pinned under Mjolnir?

Also, like many fictional depictions of Hades/Pluto, he is just a jerk.

Pluto: “It has been centuries since brother Zeus allowed me any new subjects to do with as I wish! Having you at my mercy is a treat far sweeter than this honeyed wine, Asgardian -- you’ve interfered with all too many of my plans!’

Dang, Pluto Hades hasn’t been the same since his wife left him, I assume.

(It’d be funny if Persephone was around and was like ‘you’re doing great, dear’)

The guy I will never acknowledge as Cerberus comes in and tells Pluto that Namor jumped into the Styx so is probably super dead and Pluto calls him an idiot for just assuming that a guy called the Sub-Mariner wouldn’t survive being dunked in a dangerous river.

Instantly proven correct because the Avengers and Namor bust in right after Pluto tells Not Cerberus to go find Namor. Namor and She-Hulk punch Cerberus and knock him out and right on top of Pluto.

Black Knight breaks the giant rock block on top of Thor with a pretty sweet sword throw and Captain Marvel CHOOMs Thor’s shackles off.

Captain America notes that Thor doesn’t seem alright lately and Thor decides to confide in his best mortal friends, the Avengers and also Dr Druid who is there for some reason.

You know the deal or should if you’ve read Walt Simonson’s run on Thor, which you should.

Thor: “The death-goddess Hela has put a curse ‘pon me... rendering my bones brittle and unable to heal, while granting me life eternal... so that I would have no escape from the pain! In recent days, I have known agony beyond imagining. I created this armor to hold together my shattered body, that I might still function as befits a son of Odin. I... regret I did not tell you this before.”

Pluto, who of course is still in the room and hasn’t even been too inconvenienced by having a not-giant not-doggo dropped on him comments that he wished he knew about Thor’s curse so that he could have arranged more painful accommodations than just putting a giant rock block on him.

Thor warns that Pluto’s power is second only to that of Zeus (wow, get fucked Neptune Poseidon I guess) which the Avengers doubt until Pluto shoots some pew pew blasts at them.

Its not really selling the second only to Zeus who is equivalent of Odin thing even if he says he’s trying to torment them, not kill.

Either way, Captain Marvel blasts the ground so Pluto loses his footing and then everyone RUN AWAYYYYY on her command.

Fall back, technically. Its the more tactical version of FLEEEE but either way its a retreat which Namor hates but does anyway.

And She-Hulk busts the door on her way out so it’ll be harder for Pluto to chase them.

Because yes definitely the room only had one entrance and I bet he can’t just OH YEAH through the wall, being second only to Zeus and all.

Since Mjolnir is trapped on Olympus and none of the other Avengers have portal powers, the Avengers head towards the only path between Hades and Olympus.

THE PATHWAY OF INFINITY!

Its called a pathway, Thor calls it a bridge, and Black Knight calls it a stairway to heaven.

But it looks like a particularly wide ramp.

Cool of Olympus to be wheelchair accessible.

Maybe the grade is too steep? I really can’t tell.

The Avengers set up? down? the PATHWAY OF INFINITY! Thor tells Captain Marvel not to fly too high above the path because it is all the links the two realms of Hades and Olympus and to stray risks becoming lost in the abyss.

And Monica has gotten lost in an abyss enough for one life, thank you.

Unfortunately, it didn’t take Pluto long to catch up with his hell army and his giant hell tank and his giant hell tank blows up a portion of the bridge (he calls it a bridge. Can a pathway be a bridge? I swear, it looks like a ramp).

The Avengers all stand near the broken portion discussing how they don’t have time to fly or jump across before the army of Hades is upon them.

Maybe if you spent less time verbally establishing that fact and more time hustling?

Also, the bridge looks a lot less wide now for some reason.

Thor volunteers to stay behind and hold off the hell army.

Which has to be reminding him of something in his recent past. I mean. A bridge. A hell army. Is he thinking of Skurge right now? Thinking it should have been him instead?

Didn’t Skurge bonk him on the head and send him away with the others at the time because he felt Thor was less expendable? Could be a survivor’s guilt thing.

I don’t know if that was on Roger Stern’s mind when he was writing this though. Could be a coincidence.

Anyway, Captain Marvel, as leader, tells Thor fuck that idea. They’re not leaving anyone behind.

Captain Marvel: “Stand or fall, we’re all in this together!”

Thor: “I cannot dissuade you? Then, so be it! Though every demon in Hades rises ‘gainst us, let the Netherworld rock with the power of the Avengers!”

Heaven or Hell, Lets Rock!

Gosh, how will the Avengers get out of this one?

I mean, the hell army is no big deal. They’ve already beaten up thousands of Pluto’s guards.

The big man himself and his big tank are more of a concern.

Also: WHY DOES PLUTO HAVE A TANK??

Follow @essential-avengers​ to learn the answer for why Pluto has a tank. Just kidding, I have no idea! Like and reblog please!

[thevibraniumveterans]

《THOR: Love and Thunder》

SPOILERS!

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Pretty cool movie, I’d give it anywhere from 7.5-8.5 out of 10.

Here’s the thing about the mid-credits though…

VULTURE had an article pointing out…

Lemme repeat that: “NO-ONE HAS FAITH IN THE GODS LIKE THEY USED TO.”

That sounds awfully familiar, because in 《Moon Knight》 S01E03 「The Friendly Type」, Marc Spector is brought before the Ennead in the Chamber of the Gods, and Khonshu is on trial. The following conversation takes place…

Khonshu accuses the other gods of “abandoning humanity”, claiming that he was exiled for not doing that. The other gods claim that they did not abandon humanity, and it was humanity who had abandoned them instead.

Khonshu goes on to state - through Marc - that Avatars are not enough; “We need the might of Gods!” Sounds awfully like how Thor needed the might of other Gods to defeat Gorr the God-Butcher.

Khonshu also demands, point-blank: “RETURN FROM THE OPULENCE OF THE OVERVOID BEFORE YOU LOSE THIS REALM!” Isn’t that essentially what Thor said to Zeus in Omnipotence City? Thor had arrived seeking help and he came bearing a warning, but Zeus being Zeus, wouldn’t listen, the same how the Ennead would not listen to Khonshu.

The Ennead - well, specifically Osiris, but like. - tells Khonshu, “We decided long ago we did not wish to meddle in the affairs of man.” That is the exact reason why Gorr got so mad, that he had been a devout follower of his God, never wavering in his belief, up until his God basically mocked him for believing that the Gods would really help the common man. As a super-powered deity, from their perspective, why would they want to meddle in the affairs of man? They’ve got their own drama, why bring someone else’s drama in? It is this contradiction of belief that drives Gorr to basically exact revenge on the Gods whom he thought would protect him, because all they did was lounge around in the “opulence of the Overvoid”, in the comfort and safety of the golden halls of Omnipotence City. Why would they ever want to “meddle in the affairs of man” when they’ve clearly got better things to do?

Also note, though, how Osiris states “We have not abandoned humanity. They abandoned us.” Yet just a few sentences later he offers a contradictory statement: “We decided long ago we did not wish to meddle in the affairs of man.” It’s funny how much sense it makes that it doesn’t make sense, because if the Egyptian Gods (and who knows how many other deities) had decided to not “meddle in the affairs of man”, as they put it, then why would Osiris say that he and his fellow Gods did not abandon humanity, instead saying that humanity had abandoned them?

(I’m very aware of how this reflects how the 1% in our reality always sit on much wealth that the 99% don’t get, but I’m not talking about that. I’m also aware that this dips into religion a bit, about how old gods of civilizations past are looked upon as nothing but myth and legend (in the view that Christianity is one of the biggest religions out there), but I’m not going super into that either.)

Even Emergency Awesome has a video talking about the connection between Moon Knight and TLAT.

The MCU seems to be hell-bent on introducing more and more deities from various cultures. We started out with the Norse Gods (Thor, Loki, etc), and now we’ve got the Egyptian Gods (Khonshu, Ammit, Taweret, Bast (ooh, a Black Panther reference!)), and now we’ve got who knows how MANY deities in Omnipotence City. So many Gods and Goddesses of more than various cultures around the world. If I remember right, Thor even name-dropped a few Aztec gods here and there. And Hercules looks set on bringing Thor down a few pegs, so now we’ve got the Greek Gods too.

What are your thoughts on this?

[suhmayzooka]

Please tell us more about your thesis topic I love hearing your thoughts on the Aeneid

omg?? i'm so flattered!

idk how familiar u are with the aeneid already, but basically it's an epic poem written by a guy named vergil, kind of like the iliad and the odyssey by homer, but roman. it follows the adventures of aeneas, a trojan hero and son of venus, who flees his home (troy) with his family and his men after the greeks attack (you may know abt how they came to the city hidden in a wooden horse--that scene is in the aeneid! it's always heartbreaking when ppl read homer and are like "i thought the trojan horse would show up" noooo read the aeneid!)

aeneas must go to italy bc he's destined to found rome, but on the way he does cool things like hook up with queen dido of carthage and, what i want to discuss, go down to the underworld to learn about his fate from his dead father. 

the whole poem is 12 "books" long, and the underworld happens in book 6.

going to the underworld is a common thing in classical epics. it's called a katabasis (literally means "going down") and many mythological heroes do it—odysseus, orpheus (he's important), hercules,, lots more (and it's not exclusive to ancient greece/rome, most cultures have some kind of myth about characters going down to the underworld to speak with the dead)

if you know dante, or really anything about christianity, you already have some idea what vergil's underworld is like. dante's Divine Comedy is about vergil (the aeneid guy) showing dante around the underworld, which became the basis for how the church understood the afterlife. the christian interpretation of the afterlife and hell is heavily influenced by the aeneid's depiction, which is one reason this specific episode has been the source of many many years of study. 

that's not what I'm actually writing abt, though, i just wanted to give some background. 

aeneas doesn't just go down to the underworld, see his dad, and return to the land of the living... several very specific things happen

first, he doesn't go alone. he must be led by a sibyl, a prophet. she instructs aeneas how to enter and acts as his tour guide, pointing out different areas in the underworld and explaining what's going on

before going, aeneas must take a golden bough (branch) to give to the queen of the underworld, proserpina (persephone in greek), which will allow him to travel through the underworld

vergil prefaces the journey with an invocation to the gods

the actual book basically is divided in two parts: the first half describes aeneas’ journey in the underworld, the final half is about aeneas talking to the ghost of his father who tells him about how his descendants will go on to found rome and be a long line of great leaders

there are two gates through which aeneas can leave the underworld: one is made of horn, which is for “true shades/ghosts,” the other is made of ivory for “false dreams” to pass through. aeneas goes through the gate of ivory and returns to the living world 

overall this book follows many examples of prior katabatic tradition, with the katabasis being a place where aeneas gains knowledge that’s really otherworldly in a place that functions very differently from the living world

what i want to write about is how the whole poem is like one big katabasis for the audience to experience, with vergil being our version of the sibyl guiding us along. different things aeneas experiences in the underworld mirror different things the audience experiences in the rest of the poem. for example, aeneas meet his father halfway through the book to gain new knowledge; this book, where we (the audience) gain new knowledge, is halfway through the whole poem. there’s a distinct shift in the two halves of this book, just like there’s a distinct shift in the two halves of the aeneid as a whole.

or how vergil begins the katabasis with an invocation (calling upon) the gods, he begins book 1 of the poem with an invocation to the muse (as is the epic tradition). how aeneas experiencing various contradictory aspects in the underworld mirrors how the aeneid as a whole is both a celebration and a criticism of rome. before he learns his future, aeneas must see reminders of his past, the ghosts of people who died earlier; the audience is being reminded of rome’s past throughout the whole poem, especially here where we see the line of roman rulers (like caesar), whom the audience is already familiar with. now i’m gonna find other parallels, like narrowing down which episodes in the epic could correspond to, like, aeneas plucking the golden bough, and a few other scenes which i think are katabatic in nature

basically along these lines ^^

overall i’m not so much interested in the actual plot of the epic, or even vergil’s intentions as the author, than i am interested in thinking of it as a mirror for the audience. 

(not to derail but that’s basically what i was talking abt earlier here with bat comics, like i’m less interested in what the actual story is than i am interested in how (or whether) the audience is acknowledged. it’s also the mindset i’m coming from with posts like this bc like… to me i find it interesting how bruce denying something the audience already knows, like he’s gaslighting himself and the audience, mirrors how an abusive parent gaslights themselves/others (even though i know it’s not intentional, it’s fun for me to think about from the perspective of being the reader who watches these events happening then to see them changed in the story like a denial of facts brought on by immense grief/trauma)... but i guess it didn’t come across well enough hahah ;;)

uhh yea that's the basic idea! thanks for asking !!