#i just. idk he’s selfish but is he really so selfish that he wouldn’t empathize at all? | Explore Tumblr posts and blogs

juniperhillpatient · 1 year ago

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I feel like over explaining my thought process behind aspects of happenstance, not because anyone asked just because I love rambling about my projects & hey - maybe if ur a reader you’ll find it interesting idk. I take a very specific approach to the “he would not fucking say that” vs “it’s fanfic that’s the whole point” dichotomy of fan creation & it’s “under what circumstances would he say that?” it’s all about pushing the characters to new limits & playing with them in new genres & with different backstories (that still take from their core canon backstories but change things slightly. changing it too completely defeats the purpose for me but that’s another post)

under the cut you’ll find me ranting & raving about my own character writing & psychoanalyzing Azula, Katara, & Jet the three most important characters lbr

let’s start with a question. I haven’t seen it recently but I’ve seen it before for this story & I like talking about the worsties a lot so - “why are Jet & Azula best friends when they’re constantly horrible to each other?” because they’re both the absolute worst next question <3 just kidding I’m going to elaborate. to understand this dynamic (which none of the other characters really do, side note) you gotta understand these 2 are not friends despite being awful to each other - the fact that they get to be awful is a big reason they’re such good friends.

Azula & Jet share some very unpleasant character traits that other fans might prefer to downplay or have them work on in fics but that contribute to my love for them - they’re both deeply manipulative & more often than not treat relationships transactionally based on what they get out of it. there’s exceptions obviously where each of their more endearing traits persevere in some relationships but they are absolutely not each other’s exception - the opposite. they get to be cruel to each other & sabotage each other & arguably each get a sense of satisfaction (or at least feel better about themselves) watching the other’s failures (Azula actively find’s entertainment in Jet’s lack of ability to have a stable relationship, the second Jet notices Azula’s relationship slipping he considers making a move, she used his horrible drunk driving accident against him & he mocked her for her lack of sexual experience & for her addiction etc etc)

I think there is something deliciously addictive to both Jet & Azula about a friend they can be their worst self around & toward hence why there is no boundaries to how nasty they can be & they will always forgive each other instantly because they both feed on letting their crueler tendencies reign free on a target that won’t flinch away & will be awful back validating them that they aren’t THAT bad because the other is Like That too.

so why did Jet almost kiss Azula in the latest chapter despite this clearly being a horrible idea? why did she act so flirty & practically invite a kiss? why did Katara not get upset about it?

let’s start with Jet. aside from being a slut, Jet has emotional intelligence mostly just when it’s convenient for him & right now it’s not. so. I don’t think he’s considering how much this would hurt Zuko & Jin, instead convincing himself there’s a scenario where it would be fine. I think Jet tends to view things from a selfish lens on a personal level. his politics are about helping people (…kind of. but maybe even more about hating the fire nation) & he views himself as a caretaker for people like Smellerbee & Longshot but he also likes to see what he can get away with at all time. this is totally based on brief canon stuff btw - Jet absolutely sees Katara’s attraction to him & uses it to his advantage so he can make his flood plan happen not caring if the truth would upset Katara even if he does seem to like her & want her approval. what he wants to see happen is more important. if Jet were forced to stop & think & empathize he wouldn’t want to hurt Zuko & Jin like that but the blurred lines within the friend group & Azula’s behavior are a cocktail for disaster already & Jet’s selfish desire to push boundaries has been awakened.

it may sound like I hate jet but it’s actually just that John mulaney meme like “my wife is a bitch & I like her SO much” <3

I will also say - jets tendency to view relationships so coldly even when it’s people he deeply cares about (in his own messy way) is a byproduct of being a kid who raised other kids. he HAD to develop a cynical & hard outlook because he saw his family killed & took on raising his friends - including turning to criminal activity at an extremely young age. that doesn’t happen without warping a person. Jet & Katara’s trauma is actually very similar in the sense of growing up fast but they react in almost opposite ways. more on my girl katara soon!

last thing - there’s a much more subtle note of self destructive tendencies with Jet risking sabotaging his own relationship. like it’s mostly that he’s a selfish jerk but also he’s never had anything good last in his life & he’s at a weird “I didn’t think I would get this far what now?” moment. the boys most stable long term relationships are his besties who he views himself as a caretaker for. Jet doesn’t think he deserves anything good for himself despite his grandiose self aggrandizement suggesting otherwise at all times & he has no idea how to handle a real stable relationship. this insecurity is worsened when he expresses it to Azula & she mocks him & validates that uncertainty. (this is going on long enough so I won’t ramble too much more but. well Jet hating himself beneath the false swagger & having a history of self sabotage hopefully isn’t a huge shock in a story where he wanted to ignore medical treatment after getting hit by a semi & shrank & became uncharacteristically apologetic & meek when Zuko called him out for it…)

ok now let’s talk about Azula. my girl is just as ready to use people like pawns as Jet (she’s actually mostly more self aware about this character trait than him I think though not in this specific instance). but she wouldn’t cheat, right? correct! still - let’s get into a psychoanalysis <3

Azula doesn’t just love Katara. she’s deeply unhealthily infatuated with her. the bestie broke away from her dad & said “who can I treat like a god next?” & didn’t wait for an answer. Azula is fully incapable at this point in the story of being an individual. She has lived her entire life as a tool serving someone else’s whims & she doesn’t know how to stop. her entire self worth hinges on Katara’s approval… & no amount of validation will ever be enough when u have exactly zero self worth. Azula would never dream of being purposefully disloyal to Katara but what she would do is desperately seek validation from other sources because no one, not even Katara in all her desire to take care of people, can give Azula what she’s looking for & it’s left her with a hollow sense of self hate & emptiness that is impossible to fill yet she has no choice but to try.

i typically think Azula is very capable of manipulation EXCEPT romantically or flirtatiously because she has no clue how to flirt but I think with Jet in this scenario it’s different for several reasons. 1. their history 2. their by now extremely tight friendship. the fact that they find each other easy company when they’re not at each other’s throats is the other cornerstone of this dynamic 3. she’s not fully self aware of what she’s doing & if she was she would stop & punish herself, probably harshly.

Azula would deny it vehemently both outwardly & to herself if anyone tried to accuse her of seducing Jet. but the brief high she gets from his validation leads her to continue to act the way she does. Azula NEEDS any form of positive attention she can get because she has nothing without external validation:

onto Katara - why didn’t Katara give a shit that Jet tried to kiss Azula? there are a few reasons. Katara wears her heart on her sleeve & she treats others like they do as well even when there is evidence to the contrary. Katara takes people at their word & gets extremely hurt when she’s wrong. Azula has admitted many times to being closed off emotionally but Katara still continually expects Azula to be more open & honest than she is & gets hurt every time Azula makes herself difficult to read. this is because Katara sees it as her job to be emotionally responsible for the people around her. she grew up practically raising herself & her brother because their father couldn’t be fully present. this was in the aftermath of the extreme trauma of losing Kya - something Katara blames herself for. & she also blames herself anytime someone close to her experiences something negative, especially Azula who she’s designated herself as fully responsible for. hence why it KILLS katara that she cannot always read Azula & in this instance, she’s misreading Azula badly & she doesn’t even know it.

Katara doesn’t realize that the almost kiss is something Azula invited out of insecurity because Azula hasn’t opened up about that (because she’s not even self aware about it herself.) if katara understood that missing context, everything would change. Katara would instantly sympathize & be upset (for a multitude of reasons, certainly jealousy being up there but mostly out of a desire to fix Azula’s broken mental state) & she would try to give even more validation to Azula (an impossible task that would only lead to more hurt & stress for Katara because she’s already giving so much of herself.) But, again, she continually expects Azula to just explain things to her in a therapy speak that Azula is mostly terrible at (although she puts in an impressive effort at times thanks to character development & Katara’s pushing.) So, instead of understanding that this was a moment of deep insecurity for Azula, Katara reads the comment as “Jet was being Jet, he’s such a jerk sometimes but whatever we’re all used to it.”

Katara is right about something with Azula - Azula would never cheat. Now that Katara understands Azula’s extreme worship of her she is deeply disturbed by it & aware that it is not healthy for either of them. So - that’s her main concern. Fixing Azula’s problems & reassuring Azula are Katara’s priorities. There is no insecurity or concerns about Azula having a wandering eye - & there shouldn’t be because that’s not the issue! Katara just should’ve realized this was indicative of bigger issues rather than pushing the whole thing off on Jet being a bit annoying & slutty which is the easy answer - & Katara is desperate for easy answers right now.

a bigger problem for Katara is that she’s run into these problems she can’t fix with Azula - like their disagreement on the future, like Azula’s unhealthy hero worship or Katara - & it’s driving poor Katara insane because what is she good for if not compulsively fixing things?

Katara doesn’t have the emotional energy to stress over a friend trying to kiss Azula when she’s not worried about Azula cheating & their friend group is just kinda Like That anyway. all her energy is being used on looking for simple solutions to complex problems. Katara HATES this fight about the future because she can’t just fix it so she’d much rather deflect. she’s insistent they move on because she doesn’t have an answer so thinking about it is like torture. there’s no time to waste on some dumb almost kiss she NEEDS to focus on what she believes is a solution to this bigger problem- discussing a distraction! (the opposite of a solution. we love delusional girlies)

Katara’s view of herself as Azulas caretaker also means she’s DESPERATE to not fight, something that causes them both negative emotions (not that Katara gives a shit about her own negative emotions, she only views herself as worth anything if people around her are happy so it’s really about shielding Azula not herself). from Katara’s standpoint the almost kiss is a potential reason to fight & when they’re already fighting so much lately of course she’s determined to blow it off. she reacts with completely fake possessiveness only when she realizes that’s what Azula wants. & it’s silly & kinky but also sad because of course she sincerely thinks Azula is hers of course she doesn’t want Azula to be with anyone else but it’s still an act - it’s not about that sincere stuff - it’s about reacting how she thinks Azula wants her to. Azula’s tendency to try & please Katara to unhealthy degrees is more blatant but Katara does the exact same thing when it comes to behaving however she thinks she should to please Azula - to keep her mentally healthy & clean because Katara views that as her responsibility. also don’t assume katara isn’t mad at jet at all, but she knows how possessive azula is of that friendship & wouldn’t want to cause more issues between her & azula by making it a thing. doesn’t mean shes not a bit pissed at Jet.

Azula believes herself functionally useless if she’s not serving at someone’s altar & Katara believes herself functionally useless if she’s not constantly solving every problem & acting as a caregiver for someone- they’re perfect for each other! but also they’ve both taken these tendencies to the extreme in a way that is unsustainable & hurting them both.

so - that’s why the almost kiss played out the way it did & why Katara reacted (or failed to react) the way she did based on my analysis of my own characters.

thank you goodnight xoxo

tldr: Azula & Jet are the worst most selfish people but it’s ok cause they have trauma so they can be awful ✨as a treat ✨ & Katara is losing her goddamn mind but I’m sure a foursome on a pirate ship will fix her

#happenstance #my own ramblings don’t mind me #I just really wanted to share my psychoanalysises lol

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dreamingofscully · 5 years ago

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4x05. “The Field Where I Died” - X-Files Rewatch

Disclaimer: So. I’ve only ever watched this episode twice, first during the original run and the second during this rewatch. I think at the time, the rumor about this episode was the writers hated shippers and wanted to basically give them a giant “FU!”. IDK if that’s true or not but it was enough to keep me away, despite how beautiful the both of them look, and the gorgeous line from Scully:

“Even if I knew for certain, I wouldn’t change a day.”

This post will be a little different. I’ll do my usual observation about MSR moments but afterwards I have ... quite a large amount of speculation and conjecture.

*****

Beautiful iconic shot of M&S in their jackets in the field.

Another iconic shot of Scully leaning close to Mulder at the meeting. (For an episode about M&S not being romantic soul mates, this episode certainly features a lot of M&S chemistry.)

Leaning close during the interrogation.

Scully giving Mulder a hard time about using Melissa (ugh I hate that she shares Scully’s sister’s name) to investigate his X-File rather than help the case or help her. It’s pretty selfish.

Leaning close during hypnosis. Scully’s hand on his shoulder. (x2)

Melissa infers that Mulder is her soulmate, that they’ve been romantic partners in several lives together before this. I think she does this to more easily manipulate Mulder, because she sees that he is SO willing to believe.

Scully is so tender and sweet, so concerned for Mulder during his and Melissa’s hypnosis sessions.

Mulder calls Scully “Dana”. This is the scene where he asks if they knew they had past lives together, whether that would change anything. Scully’s response, just to repeat because it’s lovely: “Even if I knew for certain, I wouldn’t change a day.”

Kneeling close at the compound when the cultists drink the poison.

Read onwards for analysis.

So much to comment on for this episode. Mostly trying to fix what we saw on screen, because that shit ain't happening without some goddamn context and explanation.

First off, Melissa ain't Mulder's soul mate, let's get that out of the way.

The problem with this episode isn't that Mulder has a soul mate that isn't Scully, the problem is that during Mulder's hypnosis (and possibly afterwards) he BELIEVES he has a soul mate that isn't Scully, and Scully represents (1) his father and (2) his commander officer in an army - both people who are untouchable and not representative of a romantic interest.

Instead of viewing these things as truth, lets view them as the result of Mulder's vulnerability to suggestion, his history with women growing up, and his denial about his feelings for Scully.

First, Mulder has been remarkably vulnerable to believing just about anything. A lot of the times Mulder is sort of right, but the skepticism that Scully gives makes the both of them come to a conclusion that is closer to the truth. He gets really mad at her when she doesn't believe the act that Melissa puts forth (and who would, really?), because he WANTS to believe this past life thing, desperately. But why, though? Read on...

The second part of my "TFWID is all about Mulder's relationship issues" headcanon is all about his susceptibility to manipulation from various people in his life - Phoebe, Deep Throat, various monsters human or otherwise (Roche), Diana, etc. He is far too willing to trust what people say if he believes that they are trying to help him - and it doesn't take too much if they give him a few things that he wants to hear. So, Melissa provides him with a very convenient and romantic idea - that maybe his life isn't so great in this one, but the next, oh the next, will surely be better - and he'll have a soul mate to share it with. Also, he doesn't have to blame himself for his failed relationships as he's done so far in his life (whether or not he is the reason for failure, he blames himself for their end, for them leaving) - he can simply view it as "not meant to be". He can be content to be alone for the rest of his life, because he has someone else waiting for him in the next. Very appealing for a guilt-ridden Byronic hero like Mulder.

And finally, related to his relationship to Scully. At this point in their relationship, Mulder is pretty steadfastly in denial about his feelings for her. He went off the deep end when she was abducted, so he definitely felt something then, but I don't know if he consciously acknowledged it. Perhaps he's had a few thoughts here and there, but his life is so consumed with the X-Files he can pretty easily shove all that stuff away. The figures he chooses to represent as Scully are untouchable in terms of a romantic relationship - specifically chosen as such. She's untouchable because I believe he thinks subconsciously that if he TRIES to have more with her, then she will leave or it will end badly in some fashion, and he ABSOLUTELY CANNOT 1000% lose her. (This theory is held up by what happens in FTF - he tries to kiss her to keep her - something terrible happens, and then he overcompensates in season 6 by being a complete jerk-ass.)

Another thing I need to speak of is Scully's reaction to this whole past life revelation. Scully is terribly uncomfortable with the fact that Mulder thinks she's been his FATHER and his superior officer in past lives, and kind of internalizes the idea that Mulder doesn't have any sort of romantic feelings towards her - she's a friend, the closest friend he has, but nothing more. Basically, Scully has been comfortable with the idea of loving Mulder since season 1. Her abduction and sister’s death made her more careful, made her put up more walls and put up a front of being stronger than she felt sometimes. She would be loathe to introduce any vulnerable romantic feelings into their relationship, and she also wanted to figure out just what the hell happened to her, so her focus became the work. She fell more in love with him as the seasons went on - his relentlessness in pursuit of the truth and doing the right thing despite all the odds being against him (Piper Maru). His emotional vulnerability - he empathized with people more strongly than most people she knew, and she wanted to protect him (Grotesque, Oubliette, Pusher). Then this episode hits, and she's given another "rejection" - Mulder thinks of her in a purely platonic way - as a friend, as family - and could never love her more deeply than that. The upcoming Cancer Arc changes things a LOT for both Mulder and Scully, and I'm looking forward to discussing them.

Made it? CONGRATS. Have a cookie. 🍪

#xfiles #x-files #x-files rewatch #x files rewatch #msr #msrheadcanon #mulder and scully #fox mulder #dana scully #season 4 #soul mates #explaining shitty canon

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softpine · 5 years ago

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hey! idk if this has been asked before (probably has lol) but how old is finn supposed to be? i was rereading your story and finn acts so mature but he also seems around the same age as asa, but maybe thats because finn's been a ghost for so long that he's matured without ageing? idk lol

oh that’s interesting because i actually feel like finn is less mature than asa!! i’m not a psychologist but i do have half of a bachelor’s degree in psychology lmao, and in my classes we talked a lot about how one of the main signs of maturity is realizing that the world doesn’t revolve around you. kids are somewhat selfish & unsympathetic by nature, because they’re trying to establish themselves and understand their own thought processes before they can begin to understand others’. as they get older, they’re more able to empathize and put other people’s needs above their own. this happens faster depending on your environment, so with asa having a huge loving family, he’s a lot more likely to care about other people’s feelings, vs. finn who went through so much during his short life and was never shown what true compassion looks like. finn isn’t completely emotionally stunted of course, he’s shown compassion to asa and he even put asa’s needs above his own by making sure asa got home safely. but he still has uncontrollable outbursts, still feels like the world owes him something, etc. which is normal, given his age & the example that was set for him, but it’s definitely a sign of immaturity.

but in terms of actual numbers, finn is 12 and asa is 11, so i wouldn’t call either of them mature lmao, it’s just that bad life situations have forced them both to grow up a quicker than they should’ve had to :( and finn hasn’t matured or aged for almost the entire time that he’s been a ghost, because he was in “nowhere” as he calls it, taking a big fat nap lmaoo. the only time he was ever present in the real world was when someone would come to his grave to talk to him, and then eventually he started following real-time whenever he was around asa!! so yeah, sorry for this huge ramble jdskjd but i would be really curious to know what makes you see finn as more mature!!

#camellia ask #floraiio #asks #saviorhide #brandi answers

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thecoleopterawithana · 5 years ago

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Hello! I really adore your blog and all the work you put into it! It's well appriciated. Anyways, a real question - how do you feel about Paul and Jane's relationship? Because it confuses me on so many levels. I find it very hard to believe she didn't know about his many affairs while they were together, yet the public reason for their break up is his adultery with Francie who denied that (I mean who even reported that?). 1/3

The other thing that confuses me is the fact that he was writing basically break up songs (but I didn’t register a lot of love there tbh) back in 66 and they somehow managed to last until 68, even though they totally didn’t give the impression of a good match (her ambition and his desire for housewife/bachelor life) nor did they seem as if they loved each other very much (at least publically).

The last part of the question, are you aware of a love song he wrote for her? I know some people think Here There and Everywhere but her brother apparently disagrees. Anyways, these are just my feelings and idk if I am not under a wrong impression here or something. I also don’t want it to sound like I am theoretizing here about it being a cover up for mclennon - because I am not! I think of it more as a publicity stunt for publicity…

…(even though I think it evolved into that over the course of time and it began more like Paul showing off with this pretty actress he managed to woo). What do you think? Thank you for your answer and sorry for the lenght, haha! R. 😎

Hey there! Thank you so much for the ask and a million apologies for taking so long to answer! It’s just that I had no opinion to speak of, at the time.

I was just beginning to attempt getting a grasp on Paul– and to better comprehend my main interest of Lennon/McCartney– and hadn’t branched into the other people in his life yet. But to reach a true understanding, it is crucial to look at the full picture; and Jane was very much part of that picture, during a long and formative time!

Now, I must warn you that I’m nowhere near a Jane Asher connoisseur! This post comes with the disclaimer that I don’t feel adequately informed to answer it. But you asked, and it has been sitting in my inbox long enough, so… take my personal opinions for what they (always) are: honest (but probably flawed) attempts at understanding the emotional workings of human beings, based on the information available to me at the time.

But because I feel like there is more information out there that I just didn’t find in the targeted research for this post, I urge more knowledgeable fans to give their contributions and/or correct me if I make some factual mistake.

So, disclaimer given, here’s the actual answer:

I understand and empathize with your confusion regarding their relationship. I think it��s just a feeling that arises from the lack of information. After all, theirs was a relationship under intense public scrutiny from the very beginning, but whose actual inner workings were kept – through the effort of both parties – determinately private and personal. That’s always how Paul prefered it. And, effectively demonstrated by her resolute silence since, so has Jane.

The main feeling I get from Paul and Jane is that they were both incredibly similar people, who also had somewhat separate interests. And this seems to have been both what attracted them to one another, and what eventually made them grow apart.

Both of them were very socially adept; “good mixers”. Brian Sommerville (the Beatles’ publicity manager from 1963-1964) describes Jane as “a very sweet, extroverted girl […] bright, very conversational and full of fun”. This kind of sounds like Paul at his most gregarious.

They were incredibly intelligent. And if Jane was cultured and knowledgeable, Paul was intensely curious, and soon became cultured and knowledgeable himself. And Paul himself openly admits that he was always attracted to “intelligent and talented people”.

And we must acknowledge that the Asher’s lifestyle as a whole was something that captivated Paul (enough to have him literally move in with them as soon as he could). It had been instilled into him from early on, after all, this great appreciation for education and the drive to do better and rise out of his circumstances.

[My parents] aspired to a better life. That idea that we had to get out of here, we had to do better than this. This was okay for everyone else in the street but we could do better than this. She was always moving to what she saw as a better place to bring her kids up.

[…]

My parents aspired for us, very much indeed. That is one of the great things you can find in ordinary people. My mum wanted me to be a doctor. ‘My son the doctor’ - and her being a nurse, too. No problem there. And my dad, who left school at fourteen, would have loved me to be a great scientist, a great university graduate. I always feel grateful for that. I mean, God, I certainly fulfilled their aspirations, talk about overachieving! That was all bred into me, that.

— Paul McCartney, in Barry Miles’ Many Years From Now (1997).

People call Paul a “social climber” to demean him; and because the term is used to attack him, others defend him by saying his relationship with Jane had nothing to do with social climbing. But I don’t think this should be derogatory in the first place!

Paul was ambitious; he did want to gain a higher social status. Not because he felt that made him inherently better than others; he’d just been raised to feel a sense of responsibility for being the best that he could be, and not live in poverty anymore! And what’s wrong with that, I’d like to know?

All the Beatles wanted success, fame and status, so all of them were social climbers, in a sense.

So what if one of the things that attracted Paul to Jane was that she was educated and cultured? It seems like a perfectly valid reason to be genuinely into someone to me.

Of course, both of them were beautiful. As Tony Barrow (the Beatles’ press officer) put it: “There was something about seeing them together that was magical. With those two gorgeous faces and all that incredible charisma, they looked like a couple of Greek gods.” So the physical attraction was also obviously there.

And I don’t doubt that Paul was proud to have such a beautiful, talented and interesting person as a girlfriend, and might have felt like showing her off to friends. But I don’t think that lessens how enamoured they were with one another. If the whole relationship was being performed for outwards appreciation, I feel like there’d be a lot more performing going on. Instead, they never revealed more than they needed to, nor did they stop living to hide from the public eye.

If there publicity strategies to it, they never came from Brian Epstein himself, who actually thought that the Beatles having girlfriends was a marketing mistake:

There was a considerable difference of opinion over the Jane Asher situation. Brian made a terrible fuss about it, saying that it would offend the fans. But, in effect, Paul just told him to mind his own business. Brian was probably just being over-cautious, and Paul more far-sighted, knowing that that sort of thing didn’t matter. But at the time it was a textbook rule of publicity that the artist must appear single and available.

— Brian Sommerville, in Chris Salewicz’s McCartney (1986).

So the relationship wasn’t arranged as a publicity stunt. I feel like everything points to them just genuinely liking each other.

(And now just an honest question to those of you who’ve been longer in the fandom: is George’s relationship with Pattie Boyd also suspected to be a publicity stunt? Because I don’t know if this has just escaped my notice, or if this claim is something that afflicts only Paul and Jane specifically. And if so, why do you think that is?)

But going back to their similarities, both Jane and Paul were incredibly independent, self-assured and work-oriented. And I think it was the clash of their strong personalities that actually caused the bumps in the relationship.

Paul likes to be in control of himself and to some extent the environment around him. And he’d grown up in a society where it was acceptable for that to extend to his girlfriends.

John and I lusted after Brigitte Bardot in our teen yearsand tried to make our girlfriends look like her. […] I had a girlfriend called Dot, Dorothy Rohne, who was my steady girlfriend forquite a long time in Liverpool. She and John’s girlfriend, later wife, CynthiaPowell, came over to Hamburg and I remember buying her a leather skirt andencouraging her to grow her hair long so she’d look like Brigitte.

— Paul McCartney, in Barry Miles’ Many Years From Now (1997).

Jane, of course, wasn’t willing to be moulded so easily.

That’s typical Paul [wanting me to stay inside the George V Hotel with the band instead of going out by myself to see Paris]. It’s just so silly of me to stay at the hotel. It’s just that he’s so insecure. For instance, he keeps saying he’s not interested in the future, but he must be because he says it so often. The trouble is, he wants the fans’ adulation and mine too. He’s so selfish, it’s his biggest fault. He can’t see that my feelings for him are real and that the fans’ are fantasy. Of course, it’s the trouble with all boys.

—Jane Asher, c/o Michael Braun, Love Me Do!: The Beatles’ Progress. (1964)

This little passage shows us Jane’s insights into the “darker” sides of Paul’s character that other’s wouldn’t often see. His insecurities: fear that Jane would betray him, anxieties about the future and his need to be liked. And this level of understanding shows either an incredible perceptiveness and emotional intelligence on Jane’s part, or it is another sign of how close they were and how well they knew each other.

That Paul was understood like that by another person is extremely important! As he was reported saying after their breakup in 1968:

Jane wasn’t just my woman, she was my closest friend. I’ve told her everything inside me. She knows what makes me tick down to things that happened as a kid. I went right through all the stuff about my mother dying and how I dealt with that. With Jane, I could just relax completely and be myself and that seemed to be what she wanted. With the other women, I’m a fucking millionaire rock star who just happens to be about as shallow as a puddle.

—in Alistair Taylor’s With the Beatles (2003).

Or just before that, as observed during the extensive interviews for the Beatles’ authorized biography, in 1967:

[Paul’s] life is much quieter and more ordered now. Paul is very communicative about himself, unlike the others. He talks everything over with Jane. She knows what he’s thinking.

— in Hunter Davies’ The Beatles (1968).

And I can’t stress enough how significant it is that Paul was open in such a way! It just shows how much he respected and trusted Jane.

And I think she also trusted him. With this I don’t mean to say that she trusted him not to sleep around; I don’t believe for a minute she didn’t know about it. And because she doesn’t exactly seem like the kind of person who would endure it if she was actually betrayed and hurt by this, my personal opinion is that this was a given; something known and accepted between them. And probably not just one-way either. They spent long periods apart, after all, and I think both Paul and Jane had agreed between themselves that it was okay to have affairs. I don’t know exactly the specifics of it, or if this was revoked when they got engaged.

But I don’t think that was the (main) reason the engagement was called off either.

It is clear they enjoyed the other’s company, from the amount of time they spent on outings and holidays alone together. But both also seem rather uncompromising in respects to their personal careers, and that probably lead to clashes. During 1965 they spend a lot of time apart when Jane pursues her acting career in Bristol Old Vic company.

My whole existence for so long centred around a bachelor life. I didn’t treat women as most people do. I’ve always had a lot around, even when I’ve had a steady girl. My life generally has always been very lax, and not normal.

I knew it was selfish. It caused a few rows. Jane left me once and went off to Bristol to act. I said OK then, leave, I’ll find someone else. It was shattering to be without her.

— Paul McCartney, in Hunter Davies’ The Beatles (1968).

Paul’s frustrations were exercised through ‘We Can Work It Out’ and ‘I’m Looking Through You’:

I wrote quite a lot of stuff up in that room actually [in Jane Asher’s family home]. I’m Looking Through You I seem to remember after an argument with Jane. There were a few of those moments. […]

As is one’s wont in relationships, you will from time to time argue or not see eye to eye on things, and a couple of the songs around this period were that kind of thing. This one I remember particularly as me being disillusioned over her commitment. She went down to the Bristol Old Vic quite a lot around this time. Suffice to say that this one was probably related to that romantic episode and I was seeing through her façade. And realising that it wasn’t quite all that it seemed. I would write it out in a song and then I’ve got rid of the emotion. I don’t hold grudges so that gets rid of that little bit of emotional baggage. I remember specifically this one being about that, getting rid of some emotional baggage. ‘I’m looking through you, and you’re not there!’

— Paul McCartney, in Barry Miles’ Many Years From Now (1997).

You’re thinking of me the same old wayYou were above me, but not todayThe only difference is you’re down thereI’m looking through you and you’re nowhere

Why, tell me why, did you not treat me right? Love has a nasty habit of disappearing overnight

I’m looking through you, where did you go I thought I knew you, what did I know You don’t look different, but you have changedI’m looking through you, you’re not the same

Paul was especially shaken by this episode when it became apparent that she might actually leave him for her other boyfriend:

I remember more one time when she was working at the Bristol Old Vic and she’d got a boyfriend in Bristol and was going to leave me for him. That was wildly traumatic, that was ‘Uhhhh!’ Total rejection!

— Paul McCartney, in Barry Miles’ Many Years From Now (1997).

So to lead a better life, Paul needs his love to be here, but Jane was pursuing her own dreams:

Jane loved acting and Jane loved Paul, but she wasn’t about to give one up for the other. […] Of all the plum roles that had come her way, the Subservient Beatles Woman was the only one Jane Asher refused to play. […] She had too much going for her to take a backseat to anyone, much less her mate. From the beginning, Paul had a hard time keeping up with her. Jane’s diary, which she lived by, was a clutter of fascinating appointments and social commitments. “I was amazed by the diary,” Paul admitted. “I’ve never known people who stuffed so much into a day.” There were auditions, meetings with television and movie producers, vocal lessons, acting classes, fittings, gallery debuts, screenings, recitals, opening nights. […] “Paul was clearly in awe of her,” says Peter Brown.

— in Bob Spitz’s The Beatles: The Biography (2005).

And though they both loved culture and the swinging London scene, Jane wasn’t into all the drugs or the rock-n’-roll world. So when they moved together to Cavendish in March 1966, their slightly different social circles often didn’t mix well.

At Wimpole Street, he and Jane had kept their social lives mainly separate. At Cavendish, she naturally wanted to entertain her theatre friends, and the mix of luvvies and rockers could sometimes be awkward. One evening when she had some fellow actors to dinner, Paul arrived home with John, who–whether the result of drink or pot or just plain Lennonness–was at his most maliciously provocative. When one of the actresses at the table nervously requested an ashtray, he knelt beside her and facetiously offered one of his nostrils for the purpose. Jane, with her usual sangfroid, simply extended a foot and pushed him over.

— in Phillip Norman’s Paul McCartney: The Biography (2016).

On this same month, during a skiing holiday in Switzerland, Paul writes ‘For No One’.

It was very nice and I remember writing 'For No One’ there.I suspect it was about another argument. I don’t have easy relationships withwomen, I never have. I talk too much truth.

— Paul McCartney, in Barry Miles’ Many Years From Now (1997).

It’s interesting to me that Paul’s problem in his relationship with women is “talking too much truth”. But by the lyrics in the song, we see that once again Paul is struggling with Jane’s self-reliance and her perceived lack-of-interest for him (which I also find endlessly ironic):

She wakes up, she makes upShe takes her time and doesn’t feel she has to hurryShe no longer needs you

You want her, you need herAnd yet you don’t believe her when she says her love is deadYou think she needs you

You stay home, she goes outShe says that long ago she knew someone but now he’s goneShe doesn’t need him

Your day breaks, your mind achesThere will be times when all the things she said will fill your headYou won’t forget her

And in her eyes you see nothingNo sign of love behind the tearsCried for no oneA love that should have lasted years!

The next big separation comes in 1967, when Jane goes on a tour of the US for the first five months of the year. This was, of course, a time of tectonic changes within the Beatles and in Paul’s life.

When I came back after five months, Paul had changed so much. He was on LSD which I hadn’t shared. I was jealous of the spiritual experiences he’d had with John.

—Jane Asher, in Hunter Davies’ The Beatles (1968).

It must have been extremely disorientating to come back to the tripping, summer-of-love, looking-for-the-Meaning Paul. But to their credit, they did try to get to know one another again; reconnect:

On Jane’s return from America, she and Paul made a last-ditch stand to consolidate their relationship. Jane, unusually, even accompanied Paul to a recording session on 20 July 1967 […] Two days after the session, Jane accompanied Paul to Greece with the other Beatles. In August Jane was with him on the trip to Bangor to be initiated by the Maharishi, and during the difficult days following Brian’s death she was clearly a great source of strength and comfort to him; someone familiar and safe he could trust and confide in; someone with all the attributes of a wife. They spent the first three weeks of December alone together in Paul’s remote Scottish farmhouse and four days later, on Christmas Day, 1967, they announced to Paul’s family - perhaps slightly to their own surprise - their engagement.

— in Barry Miles’ Many Years From Now (1997).

Jane and Paul make a very loving and lovely couple. Everyone agrees on this. […] Paul and Jane have more time together, on their own, than probably the other Beatle couples. They do get away together, to places like their Scottish home, thanks to Jane. They were the first to want to move to the country for good, to a quieter smaller house, which John and George now also want to do.

—in Hunter Davies’ The Beatles (1968).

When they got engaged, on Christmas Day 1967, all these problems were in the past. Maharishi, for a long time, was the only little point of difference, although it was all amicable. Jane didn’t fall for him when the others did, although she understood the attraction. She would obviously have preferred to try to reach a spiritual state on their own. Paul wasn’t as committed as George and John when he went with Jane to India in 1968, but he felt there was something there that would help him, that might answer his questions. So Jane agreed to go with him.

— in Hunter Davies’ The Beatles (1968).

Suffice it to say, Paul didn’t get his answers. In fact, the reality he knew was about to crumble.

The summer of 1968 was a horrible storm of drugs, anxiety and heartbreak, where he had to take care of this budding enterprise while managing a band and losing both his partners. And I think Alistair Taylor’s descriptions of a completely wrecked Paul reflect all of that.

It’s curious then how Paul recalls his reaction to the calling off of the engagement later:

I don’t remember [his and Jane’s eventual] breakup as being traumatic, really. I remember more one time when she was working at the Bristol Old Vic and she’d got a boyfriend in Bristol and was going to leave me for him. That was wildly traumatic, that was ‘Uhhhh!’ Total rejection! We got back together again but I had already gone through that when we eventually split up. It seemed it had to happen. It felt right.

— Paul McCartney, in Barry Miles’ Many Years From Now (1997).

They were eventually both at peace with the decision. Paul has expressed that he had an intuitive unconscious reticence over actually marrying Jane. And Jane herself had felt that they’d grown too much and apart as people. She surmises:

“And I had four [wonderful years].

“No, it wasn’t love at first sight on my side. It was several months before I felt at all certain. And of course, I was young. Only seventeen. Inevitably, one changes. After all, Paul himself was only twenty when we met.

“I knew in my bones that the break must inevitably come a long time before it actually happened. Although we had this emotional thing for each other, we found it difficult to be really happy together.”

I remembered, then, the character in another play who had cried: “I am not offering you happiness, but love.” And I remembered, too, how that great J. L. Garvin had once told me when I was Jane’s age: “Everything in life makes either for happiness or experience.”

“And sometimes the experience is more important,” I suggested now.

She nodded as she got up to go.

“I long to improve as an actress and I hope what’s happened to me will make me understand more fully the characters I am asked to play. Anyway, I promise you, I wouldn’t not have had it happen. I mean, I am very, very grateful for those four years. And I am not going to look back in bitterness or anger, but only forward.

“People are such bores who make a drama out of their lost loves. In every case someone has to fall out of love first.”

—Jane Asher, interview w/ Godfrey Winn for The Australian Women’s Weekly: Girl with a broken love affair. (April 23rd, 1969)

So here’s my overview of Paul and Jane.

I feel like their relationship was very genuine and organic, so much so that they eventually grew in different directions. But they were nevertheless very important and formative figures in each other’s lives.

And it was personally very interesting for me to see this side of Paul too, the one whose needs are left unmet by a driven, work-oriented, independent partner, and how he reacted to that.

Jane herself is an awesome woman in her own right, and I loved this chance to get to know her a little better.

As for love songs written from Paul to Jane, I would ask for the help of more well-informed fans! I’m sure many of the feelings expressed in his love songs were also inspired in part by his experiences with Jane. Is there one particular song out there which has been stated to be about her?

#asks me why #jane asher #paul mccartney #the beatles #John Lennon #there are two sides to me

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aeide-thea · 5 years ago

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'Franklin has an unhealthy 'tolerance' for emotional pain in his partners. When someone you care about is deeply in pain, it is the very nature of intimacy that you will also experience empathic pain and you will be driven to act to stop that pain. If that pain is directly related to you and your actions -or- if it is somehow within your power to otherwise ease that pain and you cannot or will not (which are both reasonable choices) make the changes or take the action that you need to alleviate that pain, then I really believe for any healthy person that this mutual pain must at some point drive you to leave the relationship. I think this is the natural and healthy course.

Franklin will essentially stay forever with a partner who is suicidally miserable. How is that? Why is that? And how do his partners bend around that reality?'

i remember so vividly being totally mystified by R's ability/willingness to just, like, let a state of misery drag on without resolution, like, whether it was between us or between em and somebody else there was so often just this kind of bizarre acceptance that things were just going to feel bad for an extended period of time, and this was just How Things Were, kaiidth, &c? whereas to me it felt like, how do you just sit with something being wrong between you and a partner without feeling as though it's urgent to resolve it? this is a state of crisis! it needs to be lanced, not just left to fester!

'I believe that the way that Franklin is able to tolerate his partner's pain over long periods of time is that he never, fundamentally believes it is coming from him. No matter how bad it is, actually, especially when it is so bad that you, as his partner become hysterical, 'irrational' or otherwise crazy, he will continue to see it as essentially something that is coming from you. And, this being the case, he will be a kind and calm and loving friend, helping you through this thing that you alone are experiencing.

In this way, do you see how the very construct of the relationship will gaslight anyone who is emotionally invested in him and then suffers for it? Because you will always be steered towards believing that the pain is ultimately coming from you,'

which is so fucking familiar? R would be, like, sympathetic about the ways in which eir life choices were hurting me, but somehow it was like, those were an agent-less phenomenon ey had no responsibility to try and mitigate the effect of, so ey was on my team insofar as sympathizing about it but there was no idea that ey might ever make different choices? but ey also wouldn't ever have broken up with me; ey just kept pulling away and leaving me agonizedly to run after em, trying to come up with a model whereby this behavior could be construed as loving and bearable.

'[F]or me, the solution was to attempt to build a skillset that would allow me to manage and take responsibility for the pain and stress that I was experiencing as a direct result of my relationship with him. Of course my history with depression confused the issue greatly about where my experience was coming from, but I understand now that it was straight up coming from the relationship.'

god, the number of times i was like, 'i feel like i'm sad about things with R, but maybe it's just all my unanchored sadness latching onto a concrete focus?' god!!

'When Franklin is inconsistent, unclear, and isn't taking responsibility so you can't count on him, but you need him and love him deeply, it FUCKS YOU UP over time. When you are additionally, trying to 'own your feelings,' not be controlling and have a neutral impact on his other relationships, you are likely to be more hesitant to ask for what you need, call out things that feel wrong, or assert boundaries.'

yup!! exactly, precisely, all of this. so much. god. &:

'One more realization that I have had, is that there is a difference between intense love and intense relief. I never had a chance with Franklin to really find out what love with him would look like, because I was too busy riding the roller coaster of pain-attachment and relief-attachment. I understand much better now what secure love feels like, and it just... it just never feels like that. With secure love, sometimes you hurt, and you have to work all the time, but it doesn't feel like almost dying and then being resuscitated over and over again. That's something else.'

and like, this is all simultaneously validating—it's reasonable to have been fucked up by this kind of thing!—and really difficult, because i still feel reluctant to label R's behavior 'bad'? like, i still feel a real tenderness for em & a real sympathy for eir point of view, even though this whole dynamic was arguably worse for me even than things with B—arguably precisely because i haven't closed myself off to sympathy for R? with B i now feel very comfortable saying, he was selfish & shitty & his entitlement led him to treat me/other partners unethically! but like, the kind of harm B caused was a kind of harm i'd long been used to (albeit not sexually), and learned how to accommodate; and so it didn't ultimately really throw me for a loop, because i was braced against it & because i was ultimately able to say, no, i condemn you, and having made my judgment i am done with you. whereas the kind of harm R caused me was new, and one i was particularly vulnerable to, and as i remain unable wholly to condemn it i remain unable wholly to purge it, even now—

so like, it would be nice to be able to stick a tidy concluding bow on this post; but you're going to have to settle for its breaking off abruptly & without resolution, because unfortunately, more than a year later, that's still the best i can do.

#feelingsblogging #theory #learning to love differently (is hard)#past lives #etc

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kibibarel · 6 years ago

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Thoughts on where pokeani is going with Mohn?

Pokeani continues to baffle me……i don’t really have any clue what it’s doing ever…….but call me McDonalds because i’m loving it

HMMMM well– i am of the belief that his Pokemon are still alive and maybe living on bean island with him…the Poke Pelago will still be a thing and he will likely still have Ultra Space travel-related amnesia

a part of me would really like to see Pokeani be the one timeline where Mohn is able to recover his memories and return happily to his family though…in USUM, Lusamine’s decision to not tell him anything is supposed to be a culmination of her development into a less selfish person who has learned to let things go…but Pokeani Lusamine’s characterization is so different that doing the same thing over again wouldn’t make as much sense thematically? or at least it wouldn’t carry the same weight…

SM/USUM Lusamine is possessive and overly controlling, unable to let the past go and cope with her own suffering. Pokeani Lusamine is similarly self-absorbed and emotionally immature, but her main problem is almost the opposite? instead, she’s neglectful– and, interestingly, she immediately assumed Mohn was dead after The Incident and didn’t spend any time searching for him (or even contemplating the possibility that he might be alive), deciding it was best to act as if he had never existed and move on…that’s obviously very different from the other Lusamines, who spiraled into villainy chasing after the hope of seeing him again

sooooooo idk if that route really fits into her character beats…seeing as she doesn’t have any issues with possessiveness and control to overcome and is instead supposed to be becoming more empathic and supportive…so i can imagine the reunion turning out at least a little differently. but the kids are more the focus in Pokeani, so maybe the growth moments will belong to Lillie and Gladion?

ooh the kids’ lack of presence in the USUM reunion really made it feel incomplete though, and i can definitely see Pokeani giving them ample time to interact with Mohn…i’m excited…..and it would be great to see more happy Aether family moments between them……heal my heart….they could..do stuff at the Poke Pelago….together…or something...

klsjg;ljsgjk JUST LET ME HAVE THIS, POKEANI!!!!!!

#Anonymous #POKEANI YOU ARE THE ONE TRUE HAPPY TIMELINE FOR THE AETHER FAMILY...YOU CAN'T LET ME DOWN NOW....

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icharchivist · 5 years ago

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Thanks! Yeah I think it's not just Allen being beloved by Innocence so much that gives him a free pass. I do believe if every Exorcist had the desire for truth and selfless love for others that Allen had. They wouldn't be chained to the Order w/fear of falling. I think everyone has been conditioned to believe the Order/Vatican/Central is the only big good to obey they end up ignoring cases like Cross and Allen. Independant accomodators who make choices contrary to the Order. The Order does -

2 have some good parts. But overall it's so corrupted they might as well stop pretending they're even a accurate representation of what's opposite of the Noah Family. I mean I'd respect them more for being honest at any rate. =\ We don't truly know the origins of the Order. For all we know it had nefarious agendas/foundations from the start. They just promoted saving the world to attract more people or justify atrocities. Innocence doesn't care about the Order. The Order seems to not like,-

3 Innocence ether (or at at least fear it. Renee and Lveille know about Apocryphos and look terrified). The Order may not be worth saving in the end. It may cone to a point where the Exorcists have to decide serving it or following Allen's path. Lenalee and Komui could decide they not only can leave their prison. But if they want to (for all it's abuse, they made the Order their world. That's hard to separate from). The Order represents cycles of godless inhuman behaviour. Allen showed they can-

4 can leave. But only if they show the humanity to do so. If they are willing to fight and protect it for real. A way to end the war. Lenalee promise to fight if she could stay w/Komui. Kanda promised to fight to save Allen. Krory promised to fight to protect his friends (Allen and Lavi in particular). None of these tied to the Order. It's not just Exorcists. Johnny showed disgust and unwillingness to participate in the Orders crimes even before Allen left. Johnny choose humanity and choice.

I agree on how the Order mostly seem to behave in general.

I think the thing is also that I strongly believe Innocence is sentient - so while some innocence like Allen or Cross might give them a free pass, some others innocences may not be so kind. The risk of being a fallen so far seems to be only for exorcists in direct contact with their innocences (parasyte/crystal) and we have seen that despite Kanda’s will being mostly good, his innocence is still... threatening him. So I do think that the threat is well deserved because not all the innocence would be as kind as Crown Clown for instance. I personally don’t trust Lenalee’s for instance which puts her in a very difficult situation being a crystal type.

The Order is... rotten and i do believe that the best thing would be for it to be over, but so must be the war because there would be chaos would the force of the innocence be unorganized. The problem with the Order is that they should have just helped organize how to help the soliders and where to send them (what Komui did mostly) instead of “what to do to win the war” that Lveille and Renee ecouraged.

Ad there is something concerning tbh with the fact innocence let most of this slide without proper backlash. Tbh this is also one of my strong point for sentientness because Mugen in Kanda’s memories seem... so wary? of Kanda. Like... idk i see it as a stray cat for exemple which had lost its owner years ago, and had been beaten down and forced into things that didn’t want it, and now so wary about eventually coming back to its owner. There is this... sort of dicotomy where it is still possible for the Order to experience on the innocence itself and of innocence not doing anything to fight against it, whenever it can or not, if it is because it truly believe in the war or want to act for others. Miranda’s innocence’s actions were all about helping Miranda herself with no real idea of a bigger purpose, for the most part for exemple. While Lenalee’s, which Lenalee had always been clear she never wanted, ended up refusing to cooperate back with Lenalee until Lenalee proved to go further into her devotion for it.

What I’m trying to say is that for the Innocence itself the Order might be the only organization they might trust for now, and as it is now, they have shown so much sentientness it is difficult to really narrow down how much the innocence would be willing to trust its accomodator instead of the rules set in place. Even if this “trust” is just into giving them a free pass as long as their motivations are pure.

When it goes for Lenalee specifically for instance, I feel like her insistance of her being “selfish only for the people she loves” (which comes from years of abuse from the Order after all), might have her running away send a very bad message to her innocence, specifically knowing that said innocence had been.... unaccomodating and sometimes harsh with Lenalee herself. There is no way to trust her innocence would be kind to her the way Mugen, an innocence who had followed Kanda since a past life, which had seen Kanda’s tortures and have an actual bound with him*, is with him. And it’s still taking into account Kanda’s had been threatening to fall him. (*one thing i noticed upon my reread is that Kanda is one of the few if not the only one I can think of who actually talked to his innocence in some random time. In Mattell before a fight he pulled his sword and said “let’s go, Mugen.” before actually entering a fight. To me it shows a connection and companionship Kanda acknowledges. And yet this very innocence still threaten to make him fall. So what about an innocence that had had less kinship with its owner, right?)

And in a way the thing is that, all the Exorcists leaving the Order is an impossible feat as far as it goes: the Order’s army are far greater than anticipated for instances, from finders to crows and we know the Vatican keeps a close eye on them. Would they all decide to run away to pursue their duty, they would always be in danger.Komui perhaps joined the Order for Lenalee but he ended up empathizing for everyone and I doubt he would let anyone go without being able to protect them. Even know everything he does is to try to protect the exorcists. And besides, would they actually all run away and fuckoff, I feel like the Order would still try to make new soldiers. New experiments. Komui, who remembers every name of every people who died in the experiments of the Order even well past before he arrived, would never be the kind of person to leave when he knows he can make a difference, even a slim one.

It is a bit harder to establish for others innocences and accomodators, but in a way i feel like everyone is a bit trapped for different reasons and the fact Allen and Kanda even managed to break away is huge. And the innocence had given more freedom to Allen, I believe also because Allen had proven himself already without needed to be tied to the Order. others innocences might not be that wise.

I do believe the Order doesn’t like the innocence all that much - too hard to control, and such an unfair weapon, “pushing them to such extreme to attempt to win the war”. But how the innocence feel about it would be something for each individual innocence imo so this makes it far harder to actually encourage anyone to leave the Order if they don’t actually have a profound connection enough ith their innocence for their innocence to understand the goods the Exorcists would attempt to do on the way out.

I do want the Order to be run into the ground because the Organization itself is rotten to its core, to its fundations, and there’s very little redeeming it without basically just throwing away all of its history and starting anew. But there are legit concerns about how there is no telling how each individual innocences would react, nor if the Vatican wouldn’t just start another project for the sake of it.

Ultimately, the realization that they should be fighting for the sake of humanity rather than for the sake of ending the war would be the best end, and admirable, but if anything, the innocence hadn’t specifically been completely encouraging of that. Plenty of exorcists don’t care much for the akuma they destroy for exemple, but this is something the innocence has to content with. (and I do believe this might adds kudos to Allen on how he himself see his innocence as a weapon that can save instead of a weapon that can destroy). Obviously the innocence cannot afford to be picky either, but it makes the “all in good faith” motivation to disemble an organization that has a huge tie with how the innocence behaved for centuries quite dangerous without understanding each personal innocence well.

But yeah sorry i went on ramble on that dkjfhd but i do think the innocence matter makes it a lot more complicated to actually run away from how abusive the order is, because it’s.. basically still leaving with a timebomb and you don’t know when it would go off once you do leave, and the knowledge that this systematic abuse will still repeat itself. “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” If the Order is a cycle of abuse and everything awful about humanity, it has to be broken in some way, but it has to be done carefully knowing that the system runs deep and that people who have been involved in it can suffer backlash they may not be ready for.

Allen grew up with his innocence away from the Order and we don’t know the origins of his innocence, so his innocence could have reason to not care about the Order and care about what’s in Allen’s heart. Innocences that stayed longer in the Order like Kanda’s or Lenalee’s might far more trust in the Order than their accomodators’s, especially if those, like Lenalee, had been rejecting them to some point.

So it is a very complicated situation and it really does put the Order to shame that it is them misusing their ressources that push people to such extreme instead of accomodating them. And it does feel awful in comparaison to the Noah clan. I kinda am still haunted by the fact the Earl planned the Alma’s incident specifically because “the Order isn’t playing by the rules by using the Noah’s weapons”. In a way it shows how much the Order is all “end justifies the means” despite the fact that their means are horrifying and against everything they had been fighting for. And lbr, the Noah destroying everything, disregarding human lives and creating chaos, while their ultimate goal is to destroy all of humanity? It makes sense. It’s coerent. The Order, disregarding human lives, creating chaos, and creating a cycle of abuse, while their ultimate goal is to save all of humanity? Gives a bad taste on what is “worth saving”. It creates an horrible dicotomy where the Noah appears more honorable because they at least act coerent within themselves, while the Order is ready to believe they are all clean while committing horrors, because it’s the sort of sacrifice that are worth it. But like Allen said, basing a war on sacrifice is worthless. (i’m not saying the Noah are right either just to be sure, just that this leaves a bad taste that the people who will destroy all of humanity are more honorable. It’s not about “geez perhaps they’re right” it’s about “oh humanity look at how low you fell that our enemies are more honorable than you”)

I reaaally dislike the Order and i honestly sideeye the innocence a lot (but again, individual sentientness, so i guess it would be a case-by-case reasoning for most of them). It just... feels so complicated to me to properly leave it. Unless we destroy the Order for good, the others options are healing it from the inside or leaving it to rot and affect everyone involved.

Bah I guess I just overthink everything. I just... think it’s a mess orz

#ichafantalks dgm #Anonymous #ichareply

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lets-talk-nonstop · 6 years ago

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WHY SAKURA IS NOT USELESS I STILL CANT BELIEVE WE ARE STILL TALKING ABOUT THIS

let’s talk about the all mighty queen Sakura Haruno.

it is the year 2019 i sit with my family. we talk of the good ol days. Playing sonic watching Naruto.

“My favorite character is Sakura”! I say l

“But she’s useless?”

She’s useless..and I hear this all the time oh she’s useless all she does is cry. But I think to myself have we read/watched the same thing? People say Sakura only got good in Shippuden, and I use to agree with that to. But it has been years and I of course have rethought that opinion. Sakura has never ever been useless and let’s discuss why.

Let’s start from the beginning a 12 year old girl from a civilian family becoming a ninja. No bloodline limit, no special family moves, no unique ninjitsu,taijutsu or genjustu(of course she gets skills unique to her later on). but a totally average girl with crush. I remember a lot of “Sakura is so annoying” expecting a 12 year girl to act like an adult lmao. of course Sakura has done some things that can be quite questionable mostly due in part to the writing. But she is just an average girl, she is a child. She gets annoyed,she can be obnoxious and immature but it seems like people glance over her compassion and determination.

Let’s go way back even more before the beginning of the show. a young bullied girl who became friends with Ino. To me this friendship was the start of what Sakura always wanted to be, a strong confident girl. And people need to understand that she did not become a ninja for Sasuke in any way her crush came later on. Ino is someone she looks up to. Ino who told her not to hide her forehead and to proudly display even giving her a headband to push back her bangs. Sakura eventually feels like shes in Inos shadow, she wanted to be Ino’s equal. The crushes they both had on Sasuke brings a wedge into their relationship but it wasn't everything. Ultimately their rivalry was to be better than the other, to grow.

I think Sakura in general was the most emotionally mature pre teen I’ve ever seen, and as the show went on she only got better and better. Her inner voice was something i loved about her, and it showed that she did pay attention to how others viewed her and how that can shape the opinions of others. She still held on to insecurities as any kid would. The only reason she would feel unconfident to state her opinions was because other people would put her down. She wouldn’t do things unless other people did them first. She didn't have a good support system other than Ino and her parents whom were not ninja themselves so were not able to really understand that part of her life. As much as I love kakashi he payed more attention to the boys and thats just that, the team was made to keep a closer eye on Sasuke in general. She did not think much of her self surely other people’s opinions must be better. I think at first she wanted to be a ninja to prove to others and her self that she could be strong. It was more for herself a bit selfish but I found that part her more interesting than any other goals her peers had because most of her classmates had expectations as clan leaders other than Sasuke and Naruto. But as many arcs happen she realizes how fucked up the ninja world actually is.

On their first mission she does not hesitate in protecting Tazuna even if she knows she can’t handle those two ninja. she’s the first to learn to tree climbing, amazing chakra control. Even that small scene of her giving a child food because who knows when he’ll have his next meal. She empathizes and that’s something that struck me about her bc in the show so far there was a lack of that(other than with Naruto). To me she is the glue and heart to team 7 because let’s face it if she wasn’t there most of it would have fallen apart.

The chunin exams Was the moment she got to truly shine. My girl took that test without a sweat when most people in that room came from ninja families and needed to cheat their way out. Not saying that that’s wrong that was the whole point of the test but she didn’t need to she was just that smart. And she uses the things she learns WELL. she is a genius on the battle field she is a quick thinker and comes up with brilliant plans even if she’s pushed to her end. Lets not forget the part that everyone remembers the most iconic moment where she cuts her own hair. She grew out her hair because she heard a rumor that Sasuke liked girls with long hair, and she cut it. That whole arc Sakura showed so much mental strength with everything going on. Naruto being passed out, Sasuke getting the curse mark, being constantly on edge, surrounded by plenty of dangerous people Attacking teams for fun. But she took charge and took care of her teammates even if she was weaker than anyone else she didn't care. Her fight with Ino one of my favorites from the Exams in general. She makes it clear that this fight wont be about Sasuke which people for some reason seem to forget!! Ino doesn't expect Sakura to even be a match to her and she fights with Equal fever and manages to break out of Inos mind jutsu. If you call her useless after that then idk what you’re watching at this point. That whole arc was just loving Sakura hours.

Getting towards the end of the first part of Naruto, Sakura realizes that she cannot get by merely with book smarts. Not downplay her already very honed skills. It would be a crime to not mention how she notices things (like the genjustu during the chunin attack) extremely quickly with not a lot of prior experience. The tension is rising for her teammates and Sasuke leaves. Even after all that Sakura picks her self up and vows to become stronger. She trains under Tsunade. Shippuden is filled with many more gems on Sakuras part. This is already very long so I’ll keep this short to name a few.

-Her fight with Sasori an Akatsuki member.(she was 15) -Taking the poison out of kankuro when no one else could. - Inner Sakura only makes an appearance once in Shippuden which shows she is much more confident in stating her opinions and reacting more freely. - Feels extremely guilty about Naruto putting his life on the line for her. Tries to confront Sasuke to deal with him herself so Naruto Doesn’t have to. Even if that was the man she has loved her whole life. -Healed Karin an enemy -Became one of the leading members of the war ( at this point I definitely believe she had already surpassed Tsunade) -Noticed that Neji was not actually Neji in like literally under a minute - Mass healing -Physically pumping Narutos heart like holy shit. - Saving Sasuke with he remaining of her chakra -Strength of hundred seal - PUNCHED A GOD IN THE FACE -RAISED A CHILD ALONE -OPENED A CLINIC FOR CHILDREN’S MENTAL HEALTH AFTER THE WAR, AND GOES TO SUNA TO HELP START THEIR OWN METAL HEALTH CLINIC

ALL BEFORE THE START OF EVEN BORUTO, AND HOW MUCH SHE HAS DONE IN THAT STORY ALREADY.

SAKURA HAS NEVER BEEN USELESS. PEOPLE THINK SO BC SHE CARES.

Ninja aren’t suppose to show emotion but fuck that noise Sakura will always be compassionate, helpful, and dedicated, and you can’t stop her. People call her useless bc she wasn't as flashy as the boys and held onto that nonsense thought since the beginning. If it wasn't for her thousands of people would be dead, Including plenty of main characters like Natuto, Karin, and Hinata to name a few. Give her the credit she deserves and stop calling her useless bc she was 12 and was taught basic ninja skills.

#Sakura Haruno #sakura #Naruto #naruto shippuden #Sakura hidden #ANYWAY LOVE THE QUEEN SAKURA #i never mentioned i wish she had gotten with ino lol I only liked sasuke till liek almost halfway of shippuden

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kimtotes · 4 years ago

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There are so many fans who really missinterpreted everything Tara did,like I hate the fake miscarriage arc and I think Sutter just did it so people would hate on Tara even more,but really they didn’t pay attention to the story,they say she just wanted to save her ass,but that’s not what happened🙄she wanted to make sure the boys wouldn’t be raised by Gemma or Jax,who couldn’t be a father anymore,she said to Unser it was not about herself,it was about saving the boys from the same fate Jax had,she realized he couldn’t be saved anymore😒She just thought about making a deal when she realized only her could take care of the boys🙄they want to paint her as a selfish woman,which is laughable when you compare her to Jax&Gemma💁‍♀️I think in e3 Colette was trying to keep Jax and Barosky happy,she realized they were fighting for her,Juice told Jax when he asked where she was,she went with a Barosky guy but she will call him later,so when she finished with the cop she called Jax!There was potential in her but she was not more than a piece of ass,with all due respect,to Jax🤷‍♀️I agree the jokes they made about her were cringy af,and Sutter always stressing the nurturing and mommy vibe is what Jax liked about her,Nero joking with Gemma about it😑🤮

You’re 100% right!! Listen I’m a ride or die Tara stan and I support our girl on everything she does, but the fake miscarriage arc was definitely Sutter’s way of getting people to hate her more 😑. It was so over the top, like a soap opera and there were better ways to achieve the same story. It’s so funny too because Sutter really tried, but there are so many people at there that supported what Tara did and empathized with her 🤷‍♀️. Damn they definitely didn’t pay attention to that arc, like how was any of that about saving herself?? Tara said how many times that she didn’t care about herself anymore al that matter was her boys?? Also if Tara really wanted to save her ass and make things easier on her and the kids, why didn’t she rat on Jax?? Like these fans really don’t think logically 🤦‍♀️. Like that has been on her mind since she had the letters in S4! She still didn’t want to rat on Jax, even when everything went to shit! Yes!!! You’re definitely right and I never really thought about it like that until another anon mentioned it, she was definitely just trying to keep them both happy. It would make sense from what little we know about Colette, I mean they’re her business partners and she plays the madame role. I’m so glad you mentioned Juice because I completely forgot about that! It just proves that Colette was only trying to keep him happy, like she probably didn’t think of calling him until Juice mentioned that he stopped by. Seriously!! Colette could have been a really interesting character, but she was only there to look pretty 😒. It would have been a lot more interesting if Colette and Baroksy worked against Jax and the club and betrayed them! That’s so disgusting!! Like the fact that he called out that Jax was attracted to her for the motherly vibe is just nasty 🤢. How does he not realize how wrong it is?? Also I’m not blaming any of the actors, but how bad was it when someone would make a comment like that and the character would just break out into a smirk?? Like Nero, Jax, Gemma, Chucky, Chibs??? That’s just so bad and it’s annoying, lol idk if I’m making sense. It’s almost like a look into the camera in the office, like Sutter knew what he was doing!

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therewas-a-girl · 8 years ago

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I was watching s1 of Arrow, bc it's on Netflix here (FINALLY) and... what happened to Laurel? She was so good in s1. WHAT WENT WRONG AFTER S1???????

Short answer - the writers think women are interchangeable, not really deserving to be treated as people and, really its easier to replace them (with the added bonus of the story they can squish out of their gruesome deaths), than say, spend brainpower to write them as humans, and allow the audience to built connections and empathy with them… and not just the whoever they are there to prop up.

long answer… is longer, and a mess:

one of the ideas i have - one of them - is that, the whole idea behind the end of season one was that tommy’s death would affect both oliver and laurel. oliver by getting him not to kill anymore and laurel by being the ‘tragedy/loss/pain’ that would push her into becoming the Black Canary.

(this is my intuition just from the way their journey was going, like, by following the narrative etc, and by knowing how these writers think, a little. like, what to them is the birth of a hero: death, loss tragedy. it bores me, generally, sure, but i know it when i see it.)

i dont know what happened, but they seemed to change their minds - maybe halfway. or after s1 ended?… idk. and started casting calls for the Canary. tore laurel down to the freaking bone - and used her character to prop other characters, general at the expense of her development. or rather, her opportunities to bond the audience with her, build sympathy for her. because all those opportunities were used to build sympathy for whoever she was facing against.

(seriously, they gave laurel in s2 some emotional reactions to stuff that are so far from human emotions, i can hardly conceive of it. and im not talking about her cleaving at sara or oliver by the way. i think she had all the right in the world to feel all the rage in the world. im talking about how all her emotional reactions were framed as wrong/bad/over the top! as opportunities for oliver to act like a self righteous dick, his behavior framed by the story as ‘right’ and ‘just’.

(i will never be over the fact that he said, to her face and utterly unironically, ‘i am still standing here, i have loved you half my life but im done running after you’ like it was an accusation, while she, and everyone else, had just found out - in laurels own home… at a dinner he was not invited to… - that he and sara were boning. like… “im fucking your sister, dropping you neck deep into the shit that is one of the most gruesome deja vu experiences in the history of ever, but how dare you be angry, you dont know whats happening in my life right now!!!! that’s obviously more important than YOUR feeling!!!” meanwhile, im standing here o_O ???? is this walking dick foreal????),

laurel framed as selfish? opportunity for her to apologize to sara instead of, idk, both of them forgiving each other for the fucked up things they did to each other???

[lmao i still laugh my ass off at how, in needing to frame sara less negatively for the whole ‘sleeping with her sister’s boyfriend’ thing - a gross device they used in s1 to to build sympathy for laurel; the writers did a whole ‘i saw oliver first’ thing with her, like that somehow means sara ‘planted the flag on him’ and that means something??? or gave her some sort of ‘get out of jail free card’ that essentially turned LAUREL in the boyfriend-thieving sister. LMFAO how the tables turned!!!

one of the most gross things arrow has done is the relationship between sara and laurel and the way they were pitted against each other - with oliver at the center. and im not saying that’s how i think of it - i like to think their issues went deeper and had fuckall to do with oliver’s dick, but that’s how the show framed it].

like, if there were scales, laurel would always be put on the lower one - you could tell they didnt respect her character much, because they always sacrificed it to make someone else look better. using laurel as the ‘bad guy’ to buy empathy/sympathy for some other character?)

so, what went wrong?

im fucked if i know.

maybe nothing. plenty of people love laurel the way she is. including me: beautifully fucked up and flawed and, this is my idea, angry as fuck but still good. or trying to be. or maybe this is my version of laurel. as i have a version of all the characters i love - essentially everyone on the show, with the notable exception of merlyn.

maybe s2 was meant to be laurel’s ‘island’ - because according to arrow thats the only way to birth heroes.

fake, that sounds. but okay.

or maybe they thought nobody liked laurel and she wouldn’t work as the black canary anyway. so her replacement was premeditate, her journey, as some say, only a fulfillment of contractual obligations towards katie.

or maybe the s2 journey/breakdown had been planned from the beginning?

i don’t know.

whatever the answer is, the result is still ??? and fucking stupid.

because the mantel was passed on from sara to laurel. sara gave laurel the proverbial jacket and went on her own way, without harm. having made up with her family, having gained her freedom (and then compromised it), having made up with her sister, redeemed herself in her own eyes and in the eyes of those she loved and who loved her. having started to see herself as a hero, and believe , finally , that she was one. or could be.

regardless of the reason for sara’s existence, sara was and IS beautiful and so is her journey, because to me, hers is a journey of homecoming and hope.

BUT - in s3 they killed sara regardless ???

even though the ‘hero mantel’ had been already passed…. and here is where i get utterly lost because, why? i dont know. i honest to god dont know. these people put two canaries on our screen but couldn’t keep them there? neither one can live while the other one survives, apparently? there was absolutely no need for sara to die - and the shameful way she did die - NOW THAT’S WHERE I START GAINING INSIGHT - because it exposes the true nature of the writer’s hypocrisy and reasons: a woman who said the iconic line ‘no woman should suffer at the hands of men’ was murdered by a girl being controlled by a man to get TO another man, while sara was shoved into a trashcan and then a literal fridge.

this ^ is where it starts to get transparent.

like, maybe they didn’t try so hard with laurel because, they don’t try that hard with women in the arrowverse in general.

maybe, they didn’t really know how to write laurel like a person, out of the archetype she was built to be. a woman written by and FOR the kind of people that think its important to give her stuffed bras to puff up her breasts does not bode well for her future.

i would however like to take a moment to point out the fucking hypocrisy of them reinforcing, in dinah, this whole ‘defender of women’ thing that they had going with sara AFTER WHAT THEY DID TO SARA ^^^ !!! they are trying so fucking hard to copy paste the traits of the ‘successful canary’ (whom they still killed) onto dinah, (perhaps even as a way to distance her from the ‘unsuccessful canary’) – but every time dinah says something like that, i cant help but be reminded of sara and what these same writers did to her AND HOW HYPOCRITICAL THAT MAKES HER LINES SOUND, KNOWING WHERE THEY COME FROM. like, generally the reaction i have is -

WITH YOUR FUCKING VILLAIN MUSTACHE!

I SEE YOU!

ps: i do not like the trend i notice that heroines are more easily accepted as heroines in arrow, when they mirror Oliver’s journey to heroism. sara did; then her latest reincarnation - dinah - mirrored sara’s. (they tried to do it with Laurel, Felicity. in a kind of way even with diggle - though that might be a stretch) it’s one of the reasons, i think, that sara and dinah are more successful with the fandom? they fit the mold more easily. easier to box in, pin down. their reasons, internal pushes, are easier to grasp - because they mirror the hero’s. and the hero gets plenty of exposition, and we are also basically programmed to empathize with him.

while its seems harder for people to accept that other kinds of journeys for women - not because it is harder, but because then they’d have to figure out the internal workings of these women who are DIFFERENT from the hero. people would have to really THINK about it, and generally, i find that’s not a natural inclination , when it comes to the internal worlds of people who are not the white male (presented as straight despite various queer!baiting flags) hero.

There are other forms of journeys, motives - that would be just as brilliant as Oliver’s - or generally the ‘tragedy-born’ hero’s. And that would fit the personality of the characters better, individualize them more, make them stand out on their own. Like Laurel’s need to do good, her disappointment with the system and want to fix it, keeping a different moral code from the others. Felicity’s plain need to make an impact, do something with her life, just because. No need for ‘dark arcs’ cause that’s just how she was born as.

But that’s a journey that would require energy to absorb, something one would have to figure out for themselves, whole watching, oftentimes even making it up, imagining it. and yeah, most ppl just dont bother.

#laurel lance thoughts #s2 #arrow thoughts #s3

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sweetcatastrophex · 6 years ago

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ive been feeling super weird lately and it’s probably partially bc i’m on my period but do you ever just feel like you’re being pulled in so many directions it might rip you apart? well i’m not gonna rip apart but i feel like so many ppl have been demanding things from me, my attention, my time, my energy, and it’s so draining. i feel like i need some quality alone time. but i’m a people pleaser i guess? i have such a hard time saying no to plans or cancelling on someone so i never do it even tho i should take time for myself. i always put ppl ahead of myself in that way. and then i keep thinking about how lance called me selfish and i can’t get it out of my head. he’s still mad at me about this fight we had two weeks ago and i think i’ll call him later. but i’m feeling so anxious and i can’t focus on work. which is making me more anxious. i stayed up til around 2 or 3 last night bc anthony came over bc he was upset about this situation he’s in with the girl he’s been seeing/the love of his life lol. he told me days ago that he needed a friend to talk to and i would usually drop everything to help a friend, but i wasn’t able to, so i had postponed it for a couple days and didn’t wanna cancel or flake again. and didn’t wanna neglect him as a friend. i wanted to help him out/be a shoulder for him to cry on or just be an ear for him to spill everything out to. i knew that having him come over would mean i wouldn’t have time to activate my new phone, work on my stories for work, or call lance (which i really need to do...), but i had him come over anyway bc he needed it. and this is something i normally wouldn’t think twice about, bc i tend to put peoples’ needs before my own pretty often, but i’m thinking about it now bc lance told me i’m selfish. and i feel guilty for not calling him yet. but i will. i also keep thinking about the term “empath.” like a lot. i know i’m an empath. not like meaning i have supernatural powers bc obvs that’s ridiculous but i can definitely feel peoples’ emotions vividly. idk how to explain it. ever since i was little ive felt like ive understood how people felt about me. i could sense when a boy had a crush on me and i was always right about it. i would joke to myself that i had a sixth sense, but i never told anyone this out of fear of sounding crazy or narcissistic. but then years later, karen said something similar. something like she knows when a guy likes her or something and i was like yooo we both have a sixth sense. it doesn’t just apply to romantic feelings. and when someone i care about is hurting, it hurts me to the point where it’s (sometimes) physical. today jake told me he loves me bc i’m very compassionate and caring. i think i have a large capacity for empathy and it’s taken me a long time to be able to identify and articulate that. i think it’s part of why so many people are drawn to me. i read somewhere that people who need healing will gravitate towards empaths. that reminds me of my relationship with my emotionally abusive ex. it makes sense. but i also think some guys are attracted to me bc i’m sure of who i am. i’m also a pretty positive person, and i tend to smile a lot (notes ive picked up from people around me lol). i think people who are genuinely happy are naturally attractive. people are drawn to happiness and can tell when someone is feigning it. i was thinking about this today: i have spent years cultivating my confidence. i would say “cultivating confidence” but i want to say cultivating my confidence bc i feel like its my own, it’s very personal. it’s different for everyone. i’ve spent so much time and energy working on myself, looking inside and analyzing myself, analyzing my insecurities and figuring out how to become more confident, bc i knew that everything i wanted would fall into place after that. i knew i would land any job i wanted, i would get any guy i wanted, etc. lance has told me so many times that i have a good head on my shoulders and that he admires how i’m able to do anything i set my mind to. and idc how corny it sounds, it’s true. i created this formula for myself and it’s worked. i can honestly say i’m happy with where i am in my life. i’m happy with who i am. i think big mouth is the tv show i was watching that touched on this. they said something about people who “know who they are.” i think people who are introspective and have figured themselves out have a certain glow. and they attract people who are still searching. i think at a young age i realized that fear was stopping me from reaching my potential, and i simply wasn’t having that. i recognized my privilege and wanted to use my resources for good. i knew i had a talent for writing, rampant curiosity, a desire to help others, and a hunger for learning, so i became a journalist. but my point is, i reflected on my high school years a lot and i realized how much of it i spent being nervous. i remember feeling so nervous about such trivial things. and i didn’t want to be held back anymore. so i decided i wouldn’t be. “So please ask yourself: What would I do if I weren’t afraid? And then go do it.” — Sheryl Sandberg i read that probably around 2013 when i was hearing a lot about sheryl sandberg and her book “lean in.” which makes sense bc my revelation stage/major growth period was around 2012 / 2013. another thing i’m thinking about: my poor time management skills. they’re bad, yes. i recognize that and i know i need to work on it. but a factor in that is also me tending to my friends’ needs. again, i need to learn to say no to people and put myself first. but then i feel guilty. i need to work on this.

#reflection #thoughts

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reynabiddy · 8 years ago

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today i was reflecting in the shower.. where i normally do all of my deeper thinking.. and i couldn’t stop thinking about 2016. i know.. we’re in a new year.. time to let it go.. but i don’t think i properly cleansed myself or made peace with how my year went. and because a lot of what happened to me throughout the year continuously comes to mind.. i knew it was time to sit down and write out my feelings. what has made me the writer or “poet” that i am today.. is i’ve spilled my heart out on paper, time and time again, but lately i've been extremely distant. i’m not sure whether it’s because i feel a burden to always be positive and uplifting or because i find myself more afraid than ever. last year i cried. and cried. and cried. more than i’ve ever cried in my 22 years of life. i even made a habit out of watching really sad and emotional movies just so i could find an excuse to. also.. i’ve smoked more than ever before. longing to both - feel.. and be numb. i’d smoke before writing so i could pull certain stories out of me. then i’d smoke after, to forget them. often times.. i just got high enough to make myself fall asleep so i wouldn’t have to deal with anything. in the midst of one of my episodes.. i realized i suffer, and have always suffered, from feeling like nobody really understands me. i’ve always felt like i was someone who was constantly mistaken for an entirely different person. i always feel like i don’t “fit”. i don’t fit around friends.. i don’t fit around family.. i don’t make sense at social gatherings.. i don’t feel at home in my own home. i think a lot of these feelings have come up, from time to time, because i’ve never really known my true identity. all i've ever known myself to be is someone that everyone clings to. and not in a “she’s the life of the party” kind of way, but more so, “she’s the person to get advice from” way. and although.. this may sound selfish, sometimes i wish i had someone like me. i wish i had someone who was willing to help solve my problems before solving their own. as i’m typing, i’m starting to cry again. and i’m crying because i don’t know when exactly this will end. or if this discomfort is how i’m meant to live life. maybe this is just the life of an empathic. maybe when i started asking god to “use” me, i signed up for this. the truth is, 2016 should have been the best year of my life. i released a book that hit the best sellers list, i bought my dog that brings an unlimited source of awe to my life, i signed a major publishing deal, i moved out of my parents house and into a new home, i lost friends that never clapped for me, and gained friends who’ve been there for me in every way since, i built this whole “brand” into something much bigger than i ever expected myself to, i found out i was cancer free, i promise the list could continue on. but depression got in the way. of everything. i never once celebrated myself. i never once intervened, and took control. i never even thought to. i felt like whatever i was going through.. i was supposed to. and still.. i’m not sure the reasoning.. i just kept living with a kind of sadness i have yet to find a name for. instead of focusing on all of the goodness that god was placing in my life, i had tunnel vision on everything that i felt was going wrong. i couldn’t see life in a positive light no matter how good things may have got. my parents split up. i was forced to move out. i lost my home base. i went, and still go, months without speaking to either one. my boyfriend was dealing with an ex who continuously threatened to take her life at the account of us being together. all i wanted to do was help her. but couldn’t. i had a new life to take care of, when i could barely take care of my own self. i lost all my friends. literally, every single one. i never ever could leave the house because of how bad my social anxiety was getting. i found out i had a fractured jaw because of the size of a tumor that was holding it in place. i found out i had a fucking tumor that could have been cancerous. i had reconstructive jaw surgery that ruined the nerve and feeling in my mouth. i could not eat or sleep or talk straight for months. i’m still dealing with the pain. i was consistently working and doing interviews right after my surgery. i was and am still extremely exhausted from this. i never properly allowed myself to rest or heal. i started working with a team that could not fully ever understand me which only added to my frustration, loneliness, and sadness. and again, THIS LIST could go on. but more than anything. i was bullied. as my brand kept getting bigger, i was bullied more. and more. and i couldn’t understand how my work, trying to help and heal people, could bring in such negative responses. i couldn’t understand why there were people who were so eager to tear me apart, they would start to attack my image. everyday people attack the way i look and sound. and this kind of bullying brought back a lot of old feelings that i never dealt with as a kid. growing up i was constantly brought down and picked on because of the way i look. i was never skinny enough. or pretty enough. or i was too hairy. or my teeth were too crooked. or my hair was too nappy. or i was too dark. or i was too “black”. or i wasn't “black enough”. now, i’m receiving - i’m too stupid or i’m too fake. my writing isn't good enough. my writing is cliche. i look like a monkey. and so on. and so forth. and as i’m typing these things.. i find myself giggling a bit, wondering why i even allow these things to bother me. but truthfully, all negativity from outside sources bothers me. no matter what form it comes in. i always question, “what have i done to deserve this?” and although i often ignore these nasty comments, i’ve realized i harbor the feelings i receive when i see these comments. embarrassment. frustration. confusion. hurt. disappointment. betrayal. i let these statements affect me to the point where i’m starting to silence my voice. i’m starting to be more afraid to speak up for myself. the thought of confrontation makes me nervous. the thought of even receiving any awful comments makes my stomach flip. so i won’t say anything at all. i’ll keep everything to myself if it'll keep the mean people and their nasty opinions away. but i’m trying to break out of this. i really am. i’m trying to be more understanding of the way people work. i know.. that the way we treat people is a reflection of the way we treat or view ourselves. meaning.. those who are willing to go out of their way to attack a person for absolutely no reason, ultimately feel that they need to. either because, they don’t have enough love for themselves, to be consumed within themselves and their own positivity, or, simply, they hate themselves just as much as they hate me. and not personally, but mainly, their views of life are formed in a negative and hateful way.. more often than not. idk.. maybe i’m getting too ahead of myself. or maybe i make sense and i’m afraid no one will understand it. lol. but anyway. idk. i’m just glad i got to get these things off my chest because i feel like my readers.. and supporters.. or those who just fuck with me, for whichever reason.. are always looking forward to hearing from me. and i’m trying to, again, be more accepting of the fact that not everyone is going to always like my shit. my writing. my poetry. my points of view. my ideas. and that’s okay. that doesn’t make me any less of an artist or woman or idealist.. and that doesn't make whomever else any less than either. i’m thankful. for these moments of clarity because they really ground me and put me back in my place. i get to reflect on how i’ve sabotaged my own life.. and i pray that god help me heal from it. the reality of this all is.. i’m my own worse enemy. and i have been.. for most of my life. and i know this because i would have never ever allowed myself to go through all the hardships that i did. i would have never allowed myself to not only deal with half the people i’ve dealt with - but also.. i wouldn’t have allowed myself to be as affected by negativity as i was. all i was doing, and all i’ve been doing, is place energy in places and spaces that my energy was never meant to be. 2016 was the ending. i firmly believe this because there is always a storm before a sunny day. there were times last year when i thought i was out of touch with myself and i couldn't hear god as clearly as i’m used to.. but really.. s/he was with me all along. guiding me to this place i’m in now. this place of - understanding, acceptance, and gratitude. i’m finally understanding that sometimes we go through shit. sometimes a lot of shit. but what we go through doesn’t define us. it shapes us into the people that we’re ultimately meant to be. stronger. wiser. and happier.. if anything. i'm finally accepting that some things, many things, are out of our control. but we have much more control than we think. the way we react to life will result in our karma. we can choose how to react and ultimately this will help affect all of our situations moving forward. i’m also learning to accept people as they are. everyone will do as they please. and not everyone will be considerate of mine, or anyone else’s, feelings. in knowing this, i have to constantly remind myself to not take anything personal. the longer i feed into other peoples negativity, the longer i’ll be miserable. misery is the result of not fully understanding or not fully having control over certain situations. but the more intuitive we are.. the easier it will be to keep away from misery. and finally.. i'm grateful for the one friend i had all along.. whom i never give enough credit to. my best friend and boyfriend. every single tear that came strolling down my cheek.. he was always here to help wipe and then uplift me. the more silence i become the more he encourages me to speak. even if he, himself, doesn't fully understand. i'm grateful to god for showing up in all forms. people. places. numbers. symbols. etc. i cannot be anymore thankful for my relationship with god. for not only helping me get through one of the best/worst years of my life.. but also.. for giving me the strength to open up about it. knowing.. that everyone’s perception of me is that i’ve “got it all together.”

Reyna Biddy

#reyna biddy #dear diary #spoken word poetry #truth

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janiedean · 8 years ago

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Actually the classic argument still stands. But it's not "Everybody has the same chances, so shut up and work harder." It's "I know there is a biais against you, that's bad, but no matter what there'll always be a biais against some group of people (which onea can vary with time), so maybe you have to work harder than others, but if you sit up and whine on your fate, you'll still have nothing, so yeah work harder and prove that you can do it."

fair but guys come on when it comes to idk native americans I don’t think a bias exactly covers it. one thing is there’s a bias against you, one thing is ‘the government has pretty much thrown our people into reservations where we have the worst living conditions of any minority in the US and once in a while they even show up and decide to build massive pipelines where we get our water supplies and we have to demonstrate over there for a month to get it revoked’. and in the sixties someone black just post-civil rights could have told you ‘yeah okay but until last year I had to go to segregated schools and I needed laws so that I could exercise my right to vote’, you don’t get over that in fifty years. like you can say ‘whine on your fate’ also about poor white people who don’t manage to get out of poverty - I generally don’t like this approach because sorry guys but it’s... really... calvinist.

sorry but this whole ‘work harder than the others and prove you’re great because work = rewards and if you’re really good you’ll certainly make it’ (which is also the american dream TM foundation) is... just.... calvinism TM to a T. and given that the base of the calvinist predestination system is ‘if you work hard and succeed it’s a sign that you’re going to paradise :DDDD’ + ‘if you don’t and your life sucks then it means you’re going to hell so it’s not worth it to keep you around bye’ (I mean, look at how the healthcare system works in the US seems to me it’s 100% calvinist too. you have money? good, you live. you don’t? too bad, die. ??) like I can’t wrap my head behind it as a whole. should you work hard anyway to get what you want? sure. do you have a right to be able to do it at the full of your capacities never mind your skin color or how much money you have? YES you do according to me, and this whole idea that ‘you’re disadvantaged but someone else will always be in any place in the world so you got unlucky this time just deal with it’ is just... meh? rich coming from whoever tbh? if I told that to someone when I come from a relatively privileged background and I don’t risk starving at the end of the month I’d feel like complete fucking shit. no one should whine on their fate but they also have all the rights in the world to protest if they’re not put in the same conditions as everyone else when it comes to study, get healthcare, get a decent job and make more money. and that works for poor people, black people, NAs, any minority in existence especially if they’re poor and a minority, but to me it 100% applies also to people who are white as snow and can’t afford an education bc they don’t make money to pay for college nor qualify for scolarships. like I had a classmate who wouldn’t have ever qualified for a scolarship in the US given that system because his grades were shit in everything except math, he went to our very public uni where you don’t need to pay excessively and where everyone can attend regardless of grades, took physics and now he’s at his second PHD in germany speaking two languages when in school his average english grade was an equivalent of F-. maybe his parents could have paid for it but like he’d have probably ended up in debt anyway. in the US idk if he’s have gone around sticking around academia. maybe, maybe not.

but like I find this attitude very... dunno. selfish? egocentric? lacking in empathy? ... calvinist? why the fuck should someone just work harder than the others because at some point in history some category always had it bad and now it’s their turn? progress exists so that we get better and we get to a point where no categories are privileged over others be it for money or classism or ethnicity or gender or what the fuck have you. sorry but I just can’t like it or understand the reasoning behind it. might be that in between my politics and the fact that I come from a catholic country and one of the things catholicism has over calvinism is that in theory you’re encouraged to empathize with your fellow human being and help them out if they’re in need rather than say WORK HARDER AND DON’T WHINE it’s just too culturally far from my mindset but meh. no. that argument doesn’t stand. obviously whining over your sad life won’t bring you anywhere, but you have all the rights to protest and try to make sure the bias goes away in your lifetime while you work hard and try to achieve your goals. this idea that some bias will always exist so might as well accept it is just... not a thing I can conceive, sorry. :/

#long post for ts #this is prob not much coherent but #i've said my piece bye #janie vs calvinism a longstanding battle #Anonymous #ask post

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comicteaparty · 7 years ago

Text

August 24th, 2017 CTP Archive

The archive for the Comic Tea Party chat that occurred on August 24th, 2017, from 5PM - 7PM PDT. The chat focused on Tangled River by snowshadow.

Featured Comment:

Chat:

RebelVampire

Good day everyone~! This week’s Comic Tea Party is now officially beginning. Today we are discussing Tangled River by snowshadow~! (https://tapas.io/series/Tangled-River) For those new to CTP, discussions about the comic are freeform, so please feel free to bring up whatever you wish. However, every 30 minutes I will be dropping in a discussion question to help those who would like a prompt. These questions are totally OPTIONAL to answer so pay them no mind if you wish~! Remember, constructive criticism is allowed, but the primary focus here is to have fun and appreciate the amazing comics that the community makes~! Each chat a top comment will be picked and featured on an ad for this chat, so let’s have a great discussion~!

With that said, let us begin with this first question~!

QUESTION 1. What is your favorite scene in the comic so far and why?

mathtans

I'm going to go with the scene just before Tanya walked into the council chamber. Basically telling her friends to vamoose, and the guy was like "yup, don't tell me twice" and Licorice gave attitude but left... felt very true to character, and like a turning point, and I think I was right about that.

RebelVampire

i found it really funny how licorice gave her attitude. until tanya told her what she was going to do and then was like nvm you are crazy bye

although man i feel like there is some really intense generational divide. which makes sense for the situation. but at the same time im really curious why they felt it was so dire they keep it to themselves that terra nova crashed

mathtans

Yeah... I feel a little awkward about that, actually. Because I'm older, and a teacher to boot, I have this tendency to shake my head a lot at the beta kids, because of some of the things they do. I am not necessarily the audience for this comic.

I feel like there may be a bunch of reasons, anything from it meaning they're not getting help, it's orbit has been decaying because it was affected by the rest of the tech stuff, to the exact opposite. It might be working and change the balance of power everywhere. Not something you'd normally tell people.

I guess what I'm saying is, I find myself on the side of the "interfering" adults a lot of the time.

RebelVampire

thats fair. i mean i dont disagree with them. albeit i tend to try and see both sides. cause i mean for sure the betas are kids and dumb. but such is the nature of kids. but i can understand their frustration. especially licorice cause i totally agree that in their situation its way more practical to learn survival skills than it is to learn history and such. not to denounce the importance of history. just being able to study history seems more like a luxury. but regardless i do think the comic means for you to see the adult side too and not just empathize with the kids.

mathtans

Yeah, I do have to give massive, MASSIVE props to the author for the realism there. They definitely feel like real kids with real, believable issues. Just, geez, the way they deal with authority... but that's my personal issue. It's good that you can approach it from both sides.

(But, y'know Tanya, if you HAD listened in geography class, like you yourself said... okay, okay...)

RebelVampire

haha tanya is admittedly kind of dumb. but im gonna give her some slack if only because her upbringing clearly was lacking. like part of me wtfs the adults' ability to parent because theyre like "ah yeah this woman here is depressed and looks barely capable of caring for her child. i could do something but nah, she can raise tanya probably."(edited)

mathtans

Licorice is actually a peculiar character. I took something of a disliking to her from the start. Just with the way she seemed to be "out for herself" more than caring about her friends. I've sort of warmed up, but I think it's a bit at the expense of Tanya, because of how she actually isn't as observant as she wants to think.

Yeah, Tanya needs slack because of the mom depression issue. I wonder if she's not prone to the same sort of symptoms down the road, or maybe there's already hints.

When you're basically taking care of your parent for years, you probably do think you can just trek out into the wilderness. Couple that with the fact that you want to STAY with the parent you've been caring for, and I can see why Tanya pulled the stunt she did with the medication. Still kind of a low blow though. I'm glad she told in the end.

RebelVampire

haha another moment where i questioned the parenting. like i know the alpha made her a promise, but this is one of those moments where if he broke the promise i dont think too many ppl would consider it bad parenting at least. cause tanya is clearly the most useless member on the team and putting everyone at risk, just like they thought she would. but at the end her motivations and actions do all make sense

also

i definitely do have mixed feelings about licorice. cause she is very selfish and tbh i think shes an awful friend. since she only ever seems to get tanya into trouble or gets mad at her for reasons even im still like "what why would you be mad about that child?"

mathtans

Oh, whew, not only me then. I wouldn't say she only ever gets Tanya in trouble (she did help kill that animal thing, and there's times when Tanya gets herself in trouble by bringing up the wrong thing in the first place) but we don't see her really caring on those times when Tanya's trying to do the right thing (like not steal the key, or is worried about where she went).

Licorice seems a good friend to Kobei. Less to Tanya, and yet Tanya's the one worried about their relationship. Like, if you have to worry that much, I'm sorry dear, maybe you need to find a new bestie.

RebelVampire

definitely a new bestie

QUESTION 2. Tanya’s life changes drastically after she witnesses Terra Nova crash to the planet. Having blackmailed her way onto the expedition, she and several Alphas travel out into the wild to find Terra Nova and salvage what they can. Do you think they will manage to find Terra Nova eventually, or will they retreat back to safety? If they do find Terra Nova, what do you think they will find, and how will it affect Tanya and everyone else?

mathtans

I wouldn't mind seeing more Licorice/Kobei, actually. Because obviously Licorice has good qualities, Kobei seems pretty on the ball about stuff.

RebelVampire

yeah i agree. itd be nice to see their relationships delved into more. albeit i also just like kobei in general cause kobei is pretty capable and also decently nice since he had more patience for tanya

mathtans

I don't see them retreating back to town. I might see them getting shanghai-ed back somehow, or Tanya somehow having to turn back, but they seem pretty committed. I have no idea what they'll find there though, I think more information has to come out first, like from her mom's fevered dreams.

Assuming they all survived that assult in recent pages. Wow, that went south quickly.

Kobei's an interesting window into life on the planet before humans arrived. Actually, related, I wonder how much of a language the author created. When Licorice and Kobei talk to each other, we don't really get to understand them, but I'm thinking there's gotta be a dictionary Snowshadow created.

RebelVampire

im certain theres at least a dictionary of commons phrases just to keep everything straight. idk tho. i mean i can definitely see leeway to take liberties.

in regards to the terra nova i dont think theyll retreat, albeit at this point it may be hard for them to even find their way back. although if those alphas did survive that assault maybe they go back while tanya and them go forward.

mathtans

They've still got maps. That should be helpful.

RebelVampire

part of me wants them to find nothing of substance just cause i cant imagine anything abandoned that long is in good shape and crashing into a planet is also not good

mathtans

Btw, I'm not sure you really answered Q1

I feel like there will be losses on this journey. I kind of want there to be something, even if it's just confirmation of some theory they had, to make those losses worthwhile.

Hopefully not more skeletons. That was kinda creepy.

RebelVampire

im gonna hope tanya finds like one book. maybe a cook book. a cook book sounds useful in their situation

and no i didnt answer Q1 O_O youve seen through my schemes

mathtans

Oh! Hey, excellent call, I'd forgotten about the rarity of books. As long as they're not all technical manuals, that could be really useful.

I am very clever about schemes.

RebelVampire

as for Q1...hmmm....i think my fave scene is actually when tanya witnesses the terra nova crash cause i feel like the imagery really kind of expressed how itd feel to suddenly see some giant flaming thing burning up in the atmosphere. cause i felt there was this sense of wonder about it since its kind of juxtaposed to the natural nature

mathtans

Actually, thinking of books made me think of history, and it's real interesting how the comic has this "history repeating itself" vibe, in terms of "trying to help them" [the natives], and it backfiring drastically, because maybe learn about what's going on rather than subjugating. I don't feel like that's "in your face" either, it just kind of works.

That's cool. It was also kind of "her thing", only she saw it.

(Refering to your answer in that last sentence btw)

Related to the history was in how there's that division in the adults between telling their children everything, and having them just learn how to deal with the aftermath as being the important thing.

Lot of thought put into this. Uncomfortable questions.

RebelVampire

yeah. i really liked the thing with the natives. cause i dont think it was portraying it entirely bad since to a degree there werent bad intentions. cause i mean trying to give ppl schools and such isnt inherently awful. but on the otherhand the alpahs definitely seem to have this sense of superiority in regards how they view the natives. like the comic definitely seems to know its a complicated topic

i really wonder if what set the natives off was the technology failing tho. cause the alphas are so reluctant to tell the truth, maybe something else happened

mathtans

Yeah... definitey makes one wonder a bit about the event that messed up all the technology, really kind of putting them on level footing. Licorice's remark about "giving them things that became useless" rang true. Was it a cyclical thing? Is that why they never have advanced to that state, they never get the chance?

I remember Kobei saying something about a thing happening every three generations.

Of course, it could also be something from their ship in orbit that accidentally misfired. shrugs

RebelVampire

yeah and for the natives its hard to say. cause theyre pretty spread out. like kobei's tribe did not look that big at all. and if you have the majority of your labor force working on other practical things like hunting and gathering then you dont really have the labor force to advance tech along.

in retrospect im concerned that in general they were okay with semi colonizing an occupied planet

the alphas i mean

cause they even built that huge roadway

as if it was no big deal to disturb the native population

mathtans

Right, and there seem to be a bunch of them - and everyone seems to have spots, including the animals. (Which must be significant, it was pointed out at some point even, but darned if I can figure that out.) Yeah, you probably don't really have a need for roads either... you're right about the alphas there.

Maybe they didn't have a choice. It was 40 years on a ship, maybe it was this or nothing.

RebelVampire

i wonder what their initial goal was? were they studying the planet?

mathtans

Which is not a very good reason for doing what they did in the way they did it, but.... hm. I kind of doubt that? I mean, it's true everyone on the ship seemed to be a scientist, but why introduce technology to a group you're trying to study? Wouldn't that mess up results?

mathtans

Oh, quick shout out to the start of Book 2. That was a really clever way of reaffirming the characters, looking at them in terms of who a hero might be.

RebelVampire

QUESTION 3. One of the biggest mysteries in the story is what caused all the technology to suddenly cease functioning. Despite the numerous scientists around, there are only really theories. What do you think caused the technology to fail? Was it natural phenomenon, divine intervention, direct sabotage, or something else?

mathtans

My inclination there is to say it was natural, but induced by the fact that the humans showed up (like a catalyst)

RebelVampire

oh yeah i really liked that moment where she was determining the hero and the villain. it was too true to life about how everyone is the villain or hero of someone's story. and i feel it was a bit meta too for the comic cause even tho tanya is the protagonist, i would not label her the hero persay. which is something i like about this comic. the ppl just are. some are jerks, some are nice. but theyre just ppl first and foremost.

wait gonna tie two questions together. what if what they were doing was studying the planet's magnetic field or something like that? and whatever their experiments did messed stuff up and took out the planet's powergrid?

mathtans

I'm vaguely reminded of the DS9 episode where that one colonist person had put a piece of technology in the woods to prevent the use of all other technology, and Sisko and O'Brien got trapped in that society for a while. I don't think it's necessarily like that (one scientist somehow using tech to screw with all the tech), but I think tech could have caused some electromagnetic interference or... I'm not that smart with tech.

Yeah, something like that, that's good!

But, like, took it out because it spontaneously caused trees to grow over something important.

The foliage on this planet must be impressive, given how they said they had to keep clearing the roads, and how overgrown they've become in less than 20 years.

Also, looking back at your remark about Tanya the protagonist, you're right, she definitely has flaws - some she acknowledges, others she doesn't like being aware of her situation - but she does seem like a good vehicle for the story. (Even though we havent' really seen evidence of the pilot being a real jerk.) Though, at the same time, I guess we know Tanya survives, if this is sort of being described in retrospect? Or is it?

RebelVampire

its definitely written in past tense. its just hard to say from which point. like is it after everything is done and she's safe at home with blef and a coffee. or is she writing soon after things happened? like each night adds a bit to the story but its in past tense cause it already happened. so i still feel tense about tanya's fate cause its hard to gauge her position she's writing. maybe shes trapped on terra nova on a cliff and is dying and is like "welp here are my last thoughts"

mathtans

Oh, totally random aside - did Ep 16 (All That Useless Stuff) load for you on Tapas? It didn't for me, but I just went to the author's personal site.

RebelVampire

no it didnt load for me. i had to do the same to read the page.

mathtans

Yeah, that's a good point. She could be writing it at any point in the future. (I think Blef's gone though... actually, that was something that bothered me at the time, she just went and released him without talking to anybody. Like she knew best, even though I'm not sure she does.) Wow, that would be dark though.

Just a note for SnowShadow to check that page then. ^^

RebelVampire

the blef thing broke my heart. but its cause i also thought blef looks like a baby. hes probably gonna get eaten in like 20 seconds

mathtans

Would Blef still be accepted back into a community after having been with humans? Some animals wouldn't be (at least here on Earth).

You're so dark tonight! Or I'm just not as cynical as usual.

Related to narration, the caption boxes are usually placed well, I find. Any thoughts about the art or art style? I have some thoughts.

RebelVampire

my thoughts are that its well done but it also reminds me of like comics from the 60s and 70s. cause a lot of the not mainstream stuff had that style, particularly one shot romance comics. not that that its a bad thing that its like that. just very unique and atypical for whats popular in webcomics atm

mathtans

Okay (I don't know the historical context myself), but I do find it rather unique. Realistic, in some sense, in terms of portrayal of facial features and the like. Also, WOW, I know I'm very basic in terms of what I do, but I tend to avoid hands... sometimes I'll look at a panel and think, if I were doing that, I'd totally have avoided putting the hand on the heart or the face there, but this person went for it, and did it well. Kudos.

Sometimes I'll wonder about the choice of a pose, but I never really get the sense that there's "cheating" to hide things the artist doesn't want to draw.

Of course, as an amateur, what do I know.

There's also the detail in the forest and things that I'd have blurred out or outlined.

RebelVampire

yeah i agree theres definitely not the sense of trying to hide flaws. but to be honest with this sort of art style ive always found the flaws add more character. cause back to me thinking the comic reminds me of comics of the 60s and 70s, the thing i remember most about those comics is they were quirky and things just werent usually perfect. like most of the comics i read the people were really flawed, so the fact there were artistic mistakes kind of fit that message of nobody is perfect. so i get that same impressiong from tangled river. that the fact there are quirks in the art just suits the fact these are not perfect ppl.

you remind me that one thing i really appreciate about the comic is the background details

there are a lot of parts where im like "yeah most ppl wouldve given up on that amount of detail"

mathtans

Characters could appear more "quirky" at times, you mean, when there's flaws?

RebelVampire

yes. cause i definitely notice sometimes when the pose is a bit off for the anatomy XD but it comes off as more quirky than it does flaw

which is kind of the ideal place you wanna be imo

mathtans

Gotcha.

RebelVampire

QUESTION 4. Due to the stress of the situation and generational gap, kids like Tanya find themselves lacking in a lot of knowledge about their parents’ past. The parents seem reluctant to talk about Tanya’s father, their relationships with the natives of the planet, the years they spent on the ship, etc. Which item from the past would you be most interested in learning about? Do you have any theories about one of these past taboo subjects? Why do you think the Alphas are so reluctant to share?

mathtans

Tanya's father, yeah, that's a whole question itself almost. How does she compare to the others agewise again?

I remember there was that one scene where they was saying there were 23 of them, and she was wondering about a boyfriend. (Weird to me how that particular thread was kinda dropped... related, weird that the parents wouldn't let them be with the natives, when there's obviously a gender imbalance, unless they figure some of the kids are LGBT.)

I wonder if the whole "Protocol 9" or whatever it was called (I'm bad with names) came about due to something related to Tanya's dad.

RebelVampire

oh i never considered that. that the one protocol that got licorice all pissy had something to do with tanya's dad.

honestly dont know the age relations tho. im kind of vague on their ages in general

outside of "not adults"

mathtans

I just randomly thought of it now while wondering about him.

RebelVampire

albeit we know tanya is the oldest of all the betas

mathtans

Yeah. It's not that integral to the story. She is the oldest though? Okay, I thought so, but wasn't sure if I misremembered.

If so, she could be the reason some of the protocols went into place.

And why some of the Alphas are reluctant to talk. They don't want to stigmatize.

(Totally random theories!)

Of course, the Alphas might also not want to share because, if the kids knew, they wouldn't be able to respect the older generation any more. Which would probably be an issue, and not just for the Alphas, presuming the kids decided to reject even the sensible advice.

RebelVampire

part of me wonders if the alphas really are kind of holding out for a ship. so they dont want to become too ingrained to life on the planet subconsciously. although id assume they dont want them getting with the natives cause they arent sure whats going on genetically. cause sure tanya seems super fine and healthy. but maybe she can catch a sickness humans cant or something. and so they dont want to chance it because they cant run tests. or maybe they feel tanya's birth is somehow to blame for her mother's condition. theres just a lot of unknown factors so i could see why theyd be not apt for it

speaking of which it occurs to me that tanya doesnt have spots

mathtans

They're definitely holding out for something (otherwise why keep all the useless appliances rather than trade with the nomads), but I have my doubts about a ship, particularly after that speech about how Earth would have had to start constructing a new ship shortly after they left. (Incidentally, there's clever little exposition drops like that when I least expect them.)

Yeah. Noticed that. Maybe the issue of breeding with the natives is that the result of the union doesn't carry a lot of the native genes. They don't want the species to die out.

Particularly not after facilitating them dying out from giving them appliances that no longer work and a bunch of them possibly had forgotten how to hunt by then.

Actually, how long HAVE they been on this world? The Alphas were taking anti-aging pills or something. Could have been a hella long time, right? Maybe that's another reason for secrecy.

RebelVampire

yeah cause we know they were on the ship for 40 years. but not really how long theyve been on the planet itself. and i doubt a roadway like that was constucted overnight. so theyve probably been around a long time.

this makes me wonder how far they are from earth tho

wait....

mathtans

Maybe not overnight, but I suspect a lot faster than we'd be able to do it now.

Waiting.

(Actually, the road had all those towers and everything, electronically activated... had to be pre-fabricated or something, right?)

RebelVampire

so i always assumed the 40 years on the ship were while it was in orbit but some of those years or all of them might have been travel time. so im gonna say maybe theyve been on the planet for twenty-ish years cause they mentioned a ship would take another twenty to get to them?

yeah all the buildings would definitely be pre-fabricated to a degree

or maybe they just have super tech

i really wish i knew how their space travel worked. cause if they found FTL travel that changes the whole time scope about help coming.

mathtans

Gotcha. I guess I assumed the 40 years on the ship were all travel time! Followed by at least 30 years before the tech went poof, and another 15 or so after that. Weird how people assume things.

Honestly, the space travel and that isn't that interesting to me. I'm more interested in Tanya's personal connection, with her father and her apparent interest in drawing which I presume came from something when she was young.

To each our own, of course; I've already said that as a teacher, who shakes his head at some of the (very believable) teenagey actions, I may not be the target audience.

Now that they're in a new city, we'll probably get a better sense of what's become of the world in the time they've been away. That may help with timelines.

Actually, the skeletons - how long does it take for people to, uh, decompose, wow, things I didn't really want to ask, hum.

RebelVampire

i only care about the space travel in this case for wrapping my mind around the timeline. but to be fair the fact we dont know makes me feel a stronger connection to tanya and the betas. cause were kind of in their same position where we wanna know stuff but they dont wanna give up the goods and wanna be all secretive about it.

not that long

which is vague but i remember it was quick

cause i looked it up once

mathtans

That's a good point. Not being in the loop helps empathize with Tanya that way.

Oh, okay then.

Hmmm, any final thoughts? It's kind of nice that Earth has worked out some of its differences, what with there being different nationalities represented on this mission. And seems a universal translator was not an item that ever got invented.

The worldbuilding was well done in general.

RebelVampire

only a year and thats if the body is buried. in the open air it happens faster

thanks google

mathtans

Heh. I wonder if they ever had gravesites after landing.

RebelVampire

my final thoughts are that while i found the comic hard to get into, it was overall a really unique and good setup cause few sci-fi these days focus on nature stuff when it comes to space stuff

mathtans

I can agree to that.

RebelVampire

and maybe. youd have to get gravesites eventually O_O

Unfortunately, the scheduled Comic Tea Party is now complete~! Thank you everyone so much for joining this week’s chat~! That being said, if you would like to continue discussing the comic, we encourage you to do so~! We want to give a big thank you to snowshadow, as well, for volunteering Tangled River for our reading queue. If you liked the comic, please be sure to support snowshadow’s efforts. If you have questions, concerns, or suggestions about CTP, please feel free to PM me, or e-mail me at [email protected].

With that said, next week’s Comic Tea Party will focus on Alec in Wunderland by mintycanoodles. Please use this week to read as much of the comic as you would like. Hope to see you next Thursday (August 31st) from 5PM to 7PM PDT~! Until then~! Comic: https://tapas.io/series/Alec-in-Wunderland

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