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moongothic · 1 year ago

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So I wrote this god forsaken post the other day because of the Crocodad brainworms, hoping doing so would clear my mind, but no, appearently I wasn't done, there's more shit I need to yell about, so here we go, Crocodile Specution Part 2

Not me coming back to this post a day later with an edit because I realized that not only is that SBS quote mistranslated, but it straight up debunks Crocodad from ever being plausible

I went and double checked how Oda had phrased his answer (in Japanese, SBS from Vol 78, page 86) to the SBS question and he explicitly stated that Crocodile became a Shichibukai in the first half of his 20s ("20代前半で", literally "first half of his 20s" and not mid-20s as the OPWikia fantranslation claims), and canonically, he would've been 27 when Luffy was born. (Crocodile's 46, Luffy 19)

So the canon timeline makes Crocodad just straight up impossible, unless he somehow still got pregnant after transitioning and managed to hide that while a Shichibukai, because the theory assumes that Crocodile's secret is that he's stealth trans. And I mean, I guess it's possible he could've transitioned years after becoming a Shichibukai, but there is no fucking way in a million years that he could've kept that a secret, and based on the interaction he has with Iva-chan in Impel Down, Iva-chan seems to know something about Crocodile that he doesn't want "revealed", so then that secret can't be him being trans since it wouldn't be a secret and wouldn't work as actual blackmail so like??? It just doesn't work???*

I dunno man, I'm emotionally devastated, I was straight up losing my fucking mind over this theory, trying to figure out if it was actually plausible or not, and. Well, I did. I managed to debunk it. But only after getting severely emotionally attached to the idea and the sheer storytelling potential it could've had

Like trans Croco is still plausible and I will never be normal about Crocodile ever again, but. God

RIP Crocodad, you will be fondly remembered in AU fanfics

*Edit again because I can't stop thinking about this stupid asshole god fucking damnit Considdering how Iva-chan talked to Kuma about him becoming a Shichibukai (at Marineford) I feel it'd be unlikely and would make little sense for Dragon want to be at all affiliated with a pirate "government dog", even in secret. But also. Hypothetically:

Crocodile could've moonlighted as a Revolutionary while a Shichibukai and like tried to leak info about the Government's plans etc to the Revolutionary Army

At one point or another he would've gone no contact with the Army though (because he had a weapon of mass destruction to find and a civil war he wanted to start and Dragon would not have been cool with that), which could've just added to why Iva-chan felt the way they did about Kuma joining the Shichibukai too

If Crocodile did transition years after becoming a Shichibukai, even if that was public knowledge it kinda would make sense nobody would bring that up because at this point, whatever scandal that might've caused would've happened almost 20 whole years ago. Also we don't know how often he would've been on the news back then, all we know is that he started appearing often on the news after doing his Heroics at Alabasta 16 years ago. Hell it's plausible Crocodile only ever got his one and only bounty before getting picked for a Shichibukai, and if he didn't really do much in public to get talked about and didn't settle down anywhere specific until like 18 years ago (after transitioning specifically)... There could be people who might not have noticed that one Shichibukai suddenly becoming a man. Hell if most people aren't aware of Ivankov's abilities, some people might've just been like "dude must've hit puberty late" / "he was a woman? That can't be possible, you must've imagined things"

Iva-chan's wording for blackmailing Crocodile might've been less about outting him and more of a vague way for them to threaten to detransition Crocodile (just written by Oda in a way that wasn't too obvious?) ((Tho Iva totally could've just said that, regardless of if Crocodile is trans or not, the average man does not want to become a woman so the threat would still be like REAL regardless of if it was involuntary transition or detransition))

Like.

I'm adding this to get this out of my system, like yes, there is still an argument and a theoretical, vaguely plausible scenario where Crocodad could still be real. I highly fucking doubt it. Like I feel desperate and delusional just writing that out (which I am, both, absolutely, 100%), but it's still theoretically plausible, I GUESS.

But whatever genuine faith I had in the theory is still gone.

(Below is the original post, now entirely moot) (At least as far as Crocodad goes, Crocodile's behaviour is still strange in Marineford so there could be something to it, just not Crocodad (at least the way I envisioned it). So please enjoy the general speculation anyways, just ignore the Crocodad parts)

Originally I thought it'd be good enough if I just rewatched some relevant parts of OP here and there, but in the end I just absolutely caved in, went and reread most of Marineford. Mainly because I knew I was forgetting scenes and stuff, and Toei adding/changing things can easily affect a character reading. Also it was just going to be easier to go through the manga and save all of Crocodile's scenes into an image folder for easier browsing, mainly because there's so much shit that happens between those scattered scenes it can be hard to like focus on one thing (especially if you're trying to specifically FIND those scattered scenes and appearances)

Anyway, because I had completely forgotten about this somehow (I'm such a fake fan smh)

We did learn that Whitebeard kicked Crocodile's ass at some point, to the point it left him Extremely Bitter About It, and him losing to Whitebeard is known to the Government at least

And very conventiently I came across this SBS Snippet about that

"D: I have a question for Odacchi. In "The White City", chapter 762 of volume 76, during the scene where Law stabs Cora-san, I found Crocodile printed on the paper Cora-san was reading. So what was that article about? P.N. Yamamoto・Sugiyama・Hori O: Yes. I'm quite impressed you found this one~. As you've pointed out, if you look really closely, you can find Crocodile there. This was from the time when Law was 10 and Doflamingo was 25; 16 years ago from now. Crocodile was 30 at the time. Similar to Luffy, back when he was young, Crocodile's name spread across the seas with incredible momentum, but soon after he was admitted into the Shichibukai in his mid-20's, he tried to fight Whitebeard and was completely and utterly crushed by him. Though he seemingly calmed down at this point, his eyes became set on the kingdom of Alabasta, and it happened to be precisely during this time period that he was being featured in the papers as a hero who hunted down pirates. In other words, that was an article reporting the acts of heroism by Crocodile at the time!"

So I think that pretty much confirms that it was Whitebeard who broke Crocodile's dreams, maybe even being the one who took his left arm.

It's still the sheer intensity of Crocodile's reaction though that's so interesting here. Like is it just him being bitter about "some weakling" landing a hit on Whitebeard but he couldn't, or is it even because that attack came from one of Whitebeard's followers, someone Whitebeard was supposed to be able to trust? Like why is Crocodile unable to trust anyone? What happened to give him his iconic trust issues? Did he get backstabbed too, and did that sight just trigger a horrible memory in him (a cherry on top of the pre-existing bitterness), thus his wild outburst? Who knows

This does also tell us a lot about the canon timeline actually, since we know Crocodile was at Roger's execution 24 years ago, where he like many others was inspired to go out to the sea and find One Piece, just a few years before the Ohara incident (only bringing that up because as much as I want Crocodad to be real, if it requires him being a former Revolutionary even for a few years, then we need to somehow believe he got inspired with a dream but didn't act on it for some reason for five whole years because the Army didn't exist for another two years and Luffy wouldn't be born for another 3 from there) (Of course, we do know that Dragon had been the captain of a group of Freedom Fighters (as we've learned from Vegapunk's flashback), so it's not like Crocodile couldn't have been a part of the forces even before they became the Revolutionary Army, it just feels odd if he had been as we've never heard as much as a suggestion that there could be another Founding Member of the Revolutionary Army beyond Dragon, Iva-chan and Kuma) (But again, there's many ways you could explain how Crocodad could still be real despite these things. Like I mentioned in my first post. There's many potential explanations. It's just the more you need to explain it, the less plausible it feels to me (which I only care about because I want to speculate about canon, like I love me a good headcanon but I want to speculate about canon here))

After Roger's death Crocodile did some pirating for about 8 years until he "retired as a Shichibukai" in Alabasta after his asskicking (can't tell if he decided to make his base in Alabasta immidiately after his asskicking or if he wandered around for a few more years before settling down there), and he proceeded to do his adorable Pirate Hunting Heroism Thing. Which we know was meant to be just a front he put on to gain the trust from Alabasta's people and the King so nooobody would ever suspect a thing. Like good god dude was playing The Long Game

(Sidenote, if Crocodile had been a part of the Freedom Fighters and/or the Revolutionary Army, it would make sense if deep inside he wanted to like, "maintain peace" even just a little, wouldn't it? Like of course the Army and Crocodile want to yeet the World Government into the bin first and foremost, but that doesn't mean either party nececarily want to allow random pirates to just run amock and ruin people's lives. So while defending the people of Alabasta definitely became a tactic for Crocodile to gain the people's trust, I do wonder if at he might've done it sincerely for a short while?)

Of course we now know that Pluton wasn't even in Alabasta, it's all the way back in Wano, so even if Crocodile had successfully usurped the country he still wouldn't have gotten the thing (poor dude just wasted like a decade of his life for nothing lmao) But I do have to ask; how, when and where did Crocodile learn about Ancient Weapons even existing, and where did he get the idea he might find Pluton in Alabasta? Like they aren't common knowledge at all, even Dragon had been shocked when Robin confirmed the existence of Ancient Weapons to him. So where did Crocodile find out about them? Did someone tell him about them, and if so, who? Did he learn about them soon after his asskicking and immidiately went after Alabasta because of it, or did he settle down in Alabasta first simply wanting to grab the throne for himself and later learned about how he could be sitting on top of a nuclear gold mine?

Mind you, Robin didn't join Baroque Works until 6 years ago, we don't know for sure if she joined when BW was being founded or if she joined a few years into the operation, so without her it's not like Crocodile would've been able to get what he wanted. So it does feel like between Robin being the only thing who could confirm existence of Poneglyphs (and read them), and the fact that Crocodile gave out orders etc exclusively through Miss All-Sunday, I feel like Robin joining should be what allowed Baroque Works to go into full operation at all

So to recap canon timeline

24 years ago Roger dies

22 years ago Ohara burns, the Revolutionary Army is founded

19 years ago Luffy is born

16 years ago Crocodile is making a name as a hero of a Shichibukai after having his ass kicked and dreams ruined, making base in Alabasta

6 years ago Robin joins Baroque Works

I dunno I just want to keep this mind for theorizing and for headcanons. Crocodile was a pirate for 3-8 years (depending on his involvement with the Revolutionary Army and if there was any at all), and then spent about 10 years in Alabasta having fun with his casino and protecting Alabasta for questionable reasons until Baroque Works went into full motion with Robin joining

Now, back to Marineford for a bit. There's something that's bothered me a lot about what we see of Crocodile in Marineford, and that's the timeskip between Crocodile attacking Whitebeard and when we next see him.

Crocodile makes his way onto Moby Dick to attack Whitebeard the second he spots him, Luffy deflects said attack and Whitebeard's underlings get between Crocodile and Whitebeard.

The next time we see Crocodile, he's off the ship. We never see how, when or why he got off the ship, but he did.

And this I find interesting for multiple reasons. Of course, most people tend to point out that during this time Sengoku announces to everyone that Dragon is Luffy's father, and we never see Crocodile's reaction to this. Even if you put Crocodad aside, knowing Crocodile may have known Dragon due to his past with Iva-chan, the ommission of Crocodile's reaction is very suspicious, considdering all the other reactions we end up seeing (including Kuma's non-reaction, which like, in theory makes sense since Kuma did know Dragon, but also, Kuma's dead, he had no reaction, and his involvement with the Revolutionaries wasn't known yet to the readers, so having his reaction was kind of pointless???)

But then when you add Crocodile getting off Whitebeard's ship, it just gets even more suspicious

Like. I think Oda wants us to just assume that someone off-screen managed to get Crocodile to back off the ship and he's trying to get back to Whitebeard, since he's fighting off Whitebeard's underlings in that next scene on top of getting sent flying Jozu, so it is certainly plausible. Someone pushed him off and he's annoyed he can't get back to Whitebeard now there's resistance. I think that's what Oda wants us to believe is happening.

But it's this line Crocodile says here that's messing with me

Now. Problem. Translation issues. Kinda. Fantranslation on the left, official translation on the right.

I'll get into it a moment but needless to say the implications of what Crocodile says on this panel is actually kind of important, but the thing is. Like, fantranslations aren't always correct, since they are questionable fantranslations from like 10+ years ago at this point. Of course, the same can be applied to the official translations, especially when the official translations go through actual localization while the fantranslations are often far too literal to be genuinely accurate. Translation is an artform, alright, it's not at all a straight forward thing, thus neither translation here is fully reliable

And try as I might, I was not able to find raw scans of this chapter (560) so I could check what Crocodile says in this panel myself. And annoyingly, I can't make out what he says in the anime either ("zuibun tou muita"???), at least not clearly enough to then try to figure out how to write it (like with what kanji) to try to retranslate it myself (plus I could be mishearing the line)

So this bit needs to be taken with a massive grain of salt, alright

But if Crocodile is actually saying they've "gotten far behind", doesn't it kind of sound like he's actively trying to chase someone?

Of course, that could be just him complaining the amount of distance that's been put between him and Whitebeard, but if so it'd be a strange way to complain considdering Whitebeard has not moved an inch-- Crocodile hasn't fallen behind chasing him, he's just been pushed away, right?

But then, he gets pushed even further away from Whitebeard by Jozu, he has his little chat with Doflamingo, yells at Whitebeard when the old man gets stabbed, then saves Ace from Execution Attempt One after having gotten close enough to do so (which is in the opposite direction of Whitebeard mind you) and finally saves Luffy

It's completely possible that Crocodile was trying to get back to Whitebeard to kill him, but between Jozu proving himself as a force to be reckoned with and Whitebeard showing himself "being weak" Crocodile gave just up, figuring getting to Whitebeard was too much effort at that moment, and that he'd get another chance later.

But he never does attempt to get closer to Whitebeard again, not that we see that at least

Instead he chases Luffy around the battlefield

So I can't help but to wonder if that line with questionable translation choises wasn't about Whitebeard but Luffy instead. Did Crocodile during that missing scene, where he hears about Luffy's father, decide to abandon Whitebeard, intentionally got off Moby Dick and backed away, only to have Whitebeard's crew chase him and Daz (since they didn't realize Crocodile was backing off)? Daz thus clearing a path for them to move towards Luffy while Crocodile was holding off the people chasing them? (We don't see when Crocodile gives Daz the orders to assist Luffy either, so he could've given those orders immidiately after he got off Moby Dick) Was Crocodile complaining not about getting further away from Whitebeard, but from falling behind on Luffy?

Moving on a little bit though, to some smaller things

It really is also strange how Crocodile spares Ace's life. Even the Government knew about his beef with Whitebeard, and considdering how Crocodile feels about both Luffy and Whitebeard, he should have no reason to try to spare Ace's life, even if he hates the Marines more.

And yeah, considdering how Luffy ruined not just his plans for usurping Alabasta but also stopped him from touching Whitebeard like less than 5 minutes ago...

...He shields Luffy from getting cut down by Mihawk. And aids Daz at the same time.

This is just absolute bizarro behaviour from Sir "I kill useless underlings for fun" Crocodile. Again, even if he doesn't want the Marines to "win", considdering how he should not be on good terms with the Revolutionary Army (regardless of if they were actually affiliated in the past or not), he should have no reason to give a flying fuck about Dragon's son, let alone the idiot who ruined his plans

Regardless of his reasoning, dude is not happy about any of this, not at all

The last thing Crocodile says at the end of this battle, was him telling Jinbei "if you want to protect something, do it right".

When Whitebeard finally dies, we do see Crocodile's reaction to it. Considdering his previous outburst, you'd think he'd have like, strong opinions about it. But doesn't he seem like he's... pre-occupied, thinking about something else???

Like, doesn't he seem kind of... distant? Detached?

Sure, maybe by this point he had kind of emotionally prepared and knew he wouldn't get his vengeance on Whitebeard and missed his opportunity. But if so, wouldn't he have a bit more of an, I dunno, an annoyed, pissed off expression?? Instead of that?? (Also minor addition, but it is kind of interesting that of all these reactions, Crocodile seems to be the only one facing to the right, Doflamingo facing kind of straight ahead at a slight angle aside. Because you could like, see it as a sign that while everyone else is focusing on Whitebeard (looking to the left), Crocodile has already "turned his back" on it and is focusing on something else. And soon enough after these panels Akainu continues his pursue of Luffy and Jinbei, a pursue which multiple people do step in to try to stop, but the last one? It's Crocodile, being the last person we see to step in to deal with Akainu ensuring Luffy and Jinbei's escape.)

Not really connected to anything but I just keep on thinking about this one panel. Mainly because when I see people bring up Crocodile reading the news about Luffy defeating Big Mom as confirmation that he's invested in Luffy, they tend to use the anime screenshot of the scene

Because yeah it does kinda look like a "proud dad reading about his son" etc. But what I'm really interested in is original the manga panel

'Cause boy howdy do they not look the same at all

Motherfucker looks like he's aged like 20 years

And I'm not sure what to make of that at all. Like. If I'm not misremembering I think this is actually the first time we saw Crocodile's face post-timeskip, so part of me wonders if Oda originally did intend to make Crocodile look considderably older from pre-timeskip and just went back on that decision later on

But, regardless of if that's the case... That's not the expression of a proud father at all, is it? Like??? I'm not even sure what to make of it, doesn't he look kind of... sad? Stressed out?? It's so strange????

Like, because don't know canonically yet what Crocodile currently thinks of Luffy, if we wanted to still believe he has a grudge against Luffy, even if he was displeased, annoyed and even jealous about Luffy pulling off a stunt he never could've, I still can't imagine THAT being his reaction to reading about it.

But if he does actually care about Luffy and is worried about what kind of trouble he's going to get into next... I dunno, would that explain that expression???

I dunno man, this panel just haunts me

And now, in the present.

Crocodile's back at it again, trying to create his Utopia, this time with Mihawk by his side (also Buggy, as their mascot). Which is an interesting choise- Crocodile justified his invitation to Mihawk based on how neither of them trusted anyone and how together they'd be less of an easy target to take down, but he did also mention that Mihawk is known as a Marine Hunter. Which. Y'know. Considdering how Crocodile feels about the Government, yeah, greatest swordsman aside it makes sense he'd want to team up with Mihawk.

But it also truly makes me wonder about where the Cross Guild plotline is supposed to go from here.

Buggy has his little moment of inspiration and realizes he wants to get One Piece and become Pirate King, but neither Mihawk nor Crocodile seem to be interested in that at all

If anything, Buggy blurting that out made poor Crocodile age like 10 years between panels from being so angy

(It's just funny because Crocodile is supposed to be 7 years older than Buggy but based on how they look in the average panel you'd think it was the reverse lmao)

Of course, his anger is understandable considdering 1) Buggy may have singlehandedly ruined Crocodile's Utopia Plans once again, this time taking even less effort than Luffy 2) That IS Crocodile's broken dream Buggy is talking about. Like, he's rubbing salt directly into Crocodile's wounds

But Crocodile still wanting to make that Utopia is so interesting, 'cause like.

He probably understands that as long as the Government exists, they will continue to try to hunt him down. Same for Mihawk, and every single pirate out there (including the Strawhats). They will never know peace until their bounties are nullified, which isn't great for Mihawk especially since he seems to yearn for a quiet life. But surely it's not the only reason Crocodile wants to destroy the Government, right

(Sidenote, did I misread or did the fucking Government just send the three remaining Seraphim to Empteebluffs to take down Cross Guild??? Like as if I wasn't curious enough about what kind of a fruit power Vegapunk gave to S-Croc considdering he can't replicate Logias, could we maybe see Crocodile fight his Seraphim? Oda please, I am dying, if that's gonna happen please I need to actually see it, don't have it happen off screen I will perish)

Like. We know Crocodile wants to destroy the Government, that's what the military force is for, that's kind of why Cross Guild came to exist and possibly part of his reasoning for inviting Mihawk

Where is this going, where are these plot threads leading? Like it would be so strange for Oda to introduce this plot thread if they're only going to get wiped the fuck out by the Seraphim, and I can't imagine Crocodile and Mihawk actually joining Buggy and trying to get One Piece first (especially if they don't have the Poneglyphs for it)(and again, that's Crocodile's broken dream, even if Buggy did somehow inspire him and reignite that flame there's no way Crocodile would do it under Buggy's name), neither should have any interest in that

Like??? Is Crocodile just going to take over the Cross Guild from Buggy and bringing them to war against the Government with the Revolutionary Army?????????????????? I mean Dragon seems to be on the move since he contacted Vegapunk??????????????

But also

Like, considdering all the shit Crocodile has done and/or attempted to do, even if they were exes (or hell, especially if they're exes), I find it hard to imagine Dragon would just welcome Crocodile and Cross Guild into the Army with open arms.

Or maybe they would because they'll need all the help they can get?? And having the greatest swordman in the world on their side against the Government would be extremely useful, would it not???

If Crocodad real, it would make for one hell of a reunion though and I'd be dying to know how Luffy would feel the stupid alligator meeting his dad. (Robin too, I'd love to see her reaction)

Although, considdering Luffy is going to be escorting Vegapunk to Elbaf (at least that's the plan rn), and if Dragon is on the move, and if Cross Guild has three Seraphim on their asses and one clownish ship ready for them... Might they all meet in Elbaf????????????? Thing is I don't think Luffy would want to pause his adventure to help his dad take down the government mind you, but also, Vivi is in trouble and he did want to go save her????????

I just

Where the fuck is any of this going Oda

Is Crocodad real

If so, what the fuck is going to happen next

(Just whatever the fuck it is, Oda, please don't make it stupid and transphobic, please, for the love of god)

(Also I literally just found out about this panel from a short Red promo Oda drew and I swear to god if that's supposed to be Luffy and his mom I will fucking cry)

(Like do not fucking tell me I have been loosing my god damn mind over Crocodad for the past two weeks only to find out I missed this page because I didn't give a shit about RED when it first came out)

#Moon posting #OP Spoilers #Sir Crocodile #Crocomom #I know I kinda tread into territory a lot of people have discussed to death already here #It's just like. I want to understand this son of a binch better myself and it's not the same for me to just read someone else's theories #I feel like I can form a better mental image by writing down my own thoughts even if they're nothing new #But also I did speculate about where the story is going so that's something IDK #I'll proof read this later #I was gonna just add this to the original post as an edit but it ended up being so fucking long I figured I could make it into its own post #The way this man has consumed my mind rn #OP Meta

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