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seventeenlovesthree · 2 days ago

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Madoka Magica Ship Analysis - KyouSaya

Based on these two polls [X] [X], I will write an analysis that'll also include how I feel about the ship (similarly to my Digimon shipping game analysis posts).

Disclaimer: I won't claim this to be a conclusive/definitive analysis of all of the ship's aspects. I have watched the original 12-episode-series and movies (including Rebellion), the Magia Record anime and I've read several manga series (the Original, The Different Story, Wraith Arc, Rebellion Story, Oriko Magica, Another Story, Mitakihara Anti-Materials). But I'm aware that I haven't seen/read all of what's out there and am also not thoroughly familiar with the games. Plus, oftentimes, ship dynamics vary depending on which series/timeline you are looking at. I'm fairly certain that thousands of words must have been written about this ship already, better and more elaborate than I probably ever could - so this is going to be my personal take on it.

(Disclaimer 2.0: I may have been a little critical of them by the end of it all, but I tried my best to phrase it all in diplomatic ways! I have no intention of discrediting the ship or anyone who enjoys it, but wanted to put my own perception, interpretation and preference into words.)

Whether canon provides input on them or not.

As one of the - if not the second - most prominent combinations in the entirety of the PMMM franchise, both in terms of canon and promotional/merchandise material, KyouSaya is a ship that should be familiar to the viewer. In the "main storyline", Sayaka Miki and Kyouko Sakura are basically set up as parallels, contrasts, opposing forces that are "actually more similar than they are/at least one of them is capable of admitting (at first)"... As with the majority of PMMM ships, there is a tragic sense of "missed opportunities", "we were so close/almost there" or "wrong place at the wrong time" when it comes to their compatibility - and, just like with HomuMado, it really depends on what "versions" of them you are referring to when estimating whether or not they make a good pair. But, once more, let's start at the beginning:

When they first meet in the main storyline, they immediately clash due to their opposing values, intentions and general approaches of being Magical Girls: Sayaka treats her duty with a sense of moral superiority, she sees herself as a soldier of justice who fights to save others and defeat Witches for the sake of doing "the right/good thing". Kyouko on the other hand appears to fight with selfish ignorance, carelessly stating that she doesn't mind causing human victims by letting familiars grow if it means defeating more Witches and gathering enough Grief Seeds to sustain herself. As she and her approach are being ridiculed by Kyouko, Sayaka's initial response is wrath, hatred - and so, their first encounter ends in a fight, with either of them being perfectly ready to kill the other...

The most tragic aspect of them meeting at this specific moment in time - and also in several other timelines as well - is the fact that their attitudes were shaped by their individual relationships and experiences with Mami AND their respective (outcomes of their) wishes. Sayaka - who had never witnessed Mami's own insecurities and feelings of loneliness - puts Mami on a pedestal of being the perfect Magical Girl. And, even if she was warned by her not to make a wish with the wrong intentions on behalf of someone else, Sayaka's intention is to be a worthy successor to the idealized version of Mami in her head, being "perfect" in her place. Kyouko, as we learn in The Different Story, used to be Mami's disciple, enthusiastic, willing to learn, believing in doing the right thing for the sake of others. But as she had to realize that her wish on behalf of her father (= wishing for people to listen to his preaching properly) turned out to be the downfall of her entire family, she decided to put up a front. Not only did she push her closest friend Mami away - whom she felt was only looking down on her as a weakling -, she also began to fight with reckless abandon and a mask of harshness, only for herself, never to let anyone get close again.

It's this version of Kyouko who sees her "former self" in Sayaka - watching her make the same mistake she used to make, believing in the idealized righteousness of being a Magical Girl, fighting for "good" like the hero in a fairy tale. However, this version of Kyouko - who grew hardened, bitter and ruthless by her experiences and who cannot stand seeing Sayaka like this - isn't capable of reaching through to Sayaka. Because her approach, as much as she may be able to understand her, isn't heard by this version of Sayaka. Whether it's Kyouko's (cruel) teasing or her actually opening up to her, offering her an "apple of wisdom" - Sayaka is bound to reject her, clinging to her unreachable ideal, which is slowly but steadily crumbling;

Because upon learning about what it means to be a Magical Girl, Sayaka continues to fall down the path of despair, losing faith in the world being worth saving; not only does she start to fight with reckless abandon herself (just like Kyouko did), she feels like a "zombie", an "idiot" who made her wish for the wrong, selfish reasons (= subconsciously wanting the appreciation and love from the person she liked in exchange for healing him). And now she doesn't even deem herself worthy of love anymore. Pushing away everyone herself now with hurtful words (just like Kyouko did), even her best friend Madoka, it's Kyouko who ends up as the one who keeps her company during her last moments of "being human". Kyouko, who, deep down inside, must have felt a sense of kinship, who related to Sayaka in ways she couldn't fully explain or convey properly at this point in time... Who ends up wishing to find a way to bring Sayaka back from her Witch state and restore her own faith in fairy tales, hoping to see good overcome evil one last time. In the end, all she can do is sacrifice herself - to make sure that neither Sayaka nor herself, who both isolated themselves from everyone they loved, would have to die all alone.

... And thus, it isn't really surprising that the version Sayaka who gained awareness of all of this - we shall call her LawOfCycles!Sayaka - feels a certain attraction towards Kyouko. Maybe even a sense of guilt - for not having listened to and actually having seen her, for having pushed her away and for not realizing how much they had in common. In Rebellion Story, the version of Kyouko we see had never encountered the Witch system and thus never went through the events described above with Sayaka - because this version of Kyouko came from the Wraith!universe created by Madokami. However, this Kyouko stated that she had been on the brink of "becoming friends with Sayaka" before she was "taken away" - and thus, LawOfCycles!Sayaka, who may or may not have been partly/fully aware of her mission and her previous "selves" for most of Rebellion, actually becomes close friends with WraithArc!Kyouko within Homura's idealized world inside of her Soul Gem.

Of course they are still clashing due to their opposing values in various aspects of life - but they do so in a playful, teasing and, most importantly, peaceful way. In an ideal world they are on good terms with, go to school, even live together, where blue and red aren't working against but with each other as the complementary colours they are. Really, nobody could have blamed Sayaka for wanting to maintain a universe like this, continuing to live her best life (after getting over Kyousuke and wishing him and Hitomi well), even though she knew she HAD TO fulfill her mission to rescue Homura. And so, one cannot help but feel like her confession towards Kyouko, saying she had "only one regret" to have "left her behind", does have a romantic subtext attached to it... Especially considering how devastated Kyouko appears at the idea of having to part ways again. With Homucifer then creating a new universe, serving as a fake happy place for everyone involved, she at least granted them another short period of bliss...

Long story short - just like the majority of the PMMM ships, KyouSaya are doomed by the narrative - and usually not meant to be happy together as their own selves in the same universe, it seems.

Whether I think why and how they’d work.

Without going all out on the subtext symbolism of Sayaka's arc, one REALLY cannot help but feel like it was always meant to be a metaphor for her overcoming her comp-het phase: Main story!Sayaka was failing due to committing to her (subtextual heteronormative) ideals (= clinging onto her wish to impress Kyousuke) and she could only overcome her doom as LawOfCycles!Sayaka, who gained awareness and worked hard to develop a bond with someone - a girl - she used to reject (= Kyouko).

However, as outlined above - this also means that Sayaka will not be compatible with Kyouko unless she gains the awareness of LawOfCycles!Sayaka. And that's where I, personally, have always had my issues with the ship from a romantic angle. Despite them fulfilling the typical blue/red ship tropes at first glance, consisting of two opposing forces (Sayaka's commitment to correctness vs. Kyouko's more easygoing attitude) who complement each other once they work together... Their underlying similarities would make it easy for them to relate to one another if they stopped hiding them from one another (Sayaka also having a side that would like to slack off more vs. Kyouko also having a very loyal, protective side).

There is a sense of competitive pride going on between them that, in my opinion, may make it difficult for them to allow romantic feelings to grow. Through the course of the main story, it becomes obvious that Kyouko develops a strong fondness and affection towards Sayaka in the end - but has issues putting those feelings into words in a non!Tsundere way, so Sayaka's can accept them. Whereas LawOfCycles!Sayaka, who witnessed all the effort Kyouko put into saving her, also grew more fond of Kyouko... But, as mentioned above, there also seems to be a lingering sense of guilt within her, so it's not entirely clear if she's aware of her true intentions yet again. These girls were heavily traumatized by what happened to them, both hardened by the experience - and weren't able to ever fully reconcile with each other in their own timelines. Sometimes they didn't get to know or even meet each other properly. And now, LawOfCycles!Sayaka can only reconcile with WraithArc!Kyouko in a playful, affectionate manner. NOW that she has seen it all.

Without elaborating on this much further, it's not even a question that all of the girls (no exceptions!!!) would need copious amounts of therapy - and the chance to actually become adults - to make healthy relationships work. A Sayaka who, even without the influence of being God's agent, gains an understanding of Kyouko's personality, might actually be able to put her pride aside and let her in. The same goes for Kyouko, who also has to drop the mask of ignorance and pride in order not to just casually joke and tease whenever Sayaka is in the same room - and instead, actually learn to be open, vulnerable and honest with Sayaka. As traumatized 14-year-olds, they may be too aggressive, too competitive to allow genuine romance to bloom, as they're not able to grasp and cater to the needs of the other. For instance, Sayaka couldn't reciprocate Kyouko's love language before (giving/accepting gifts, such as advice or, more importantly, food) and vice versa (acts of service in regards to fighting and protecting heroically). And thus, they may end up, even unintentionally, hurting each other instead.

My personal verdict is that they'd have an easier time opening up to other members of the Holy Quintet because of their personality structures. As complementary as they are, as much as opposites attract and as much as they genuinely value each other deep down inside - they may certainly give each other short-term comfort and have lots of fun, but are probably TOO similar to work out in the long run.

Whether I’d prefer them as platonic or romantic ship.

I didn't intend to sound too "negatively" about KyouSaya as a whole, since I can absolutely see and understand the romantic appeal many, many people see in this ship. Personally, the red/blue ships (as well as the "enemies/rivals to lovers" trope in general) are rarely my favourites in a series, there have to be specific circumstances for me to enjoy them - which is perfectly fine, since everyone has their preferences! With everything I have outlined above, I was never too fond of Sayaka and Kyouko as a romantic couple. Instead, I always enjoyed them most as each other's wing-women; bantering and teasing each other endlessly as acquaintances who would slowly but steadily become good, close friends, supporting and having each other's backs.

#madoka magica #puella magi madoka magica #pmmm #my two cents #meta #ship analysis #long post #kyousaya #kyouko sakura #sayaka miki #kyoko sakura #kyosaya

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firecoloredwater · 3 days ago

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I think in this case, it has to actually be a question of "to what extent was gender play an inherent and necessary part of the bodice ripper in the late 1960s?"

Because like, the sexism is most extreme in Dragonflight, and it was very firmly established in "Weyr Search," which Wikipedia tells me was published in 1967.

That's where we get Fax's harem of abused wives, and... I don't think we ever get anything like that again, actually? Like I don't think Meron or Chalkin or any other evil antagonist character gets to collect women to abuse; generally they seem to either be paired with an evil girlfriend (Meron/Kylara, the Oldtime weyrleader couples) or no wife is mentioned at all. Definitely nothing dwells on it like "Weyr Search"/the beginning of Dragonflight does.

There's plenty of other sexism after that point, like... uh, everything. Basically everything. But "Lessa is kept isolated and not told how mating flights work in order to keep her helpless" and "the Harper Hall doesn't allow girls to be apprentices" feel like a different flavor to me? They're close equivalents to things that were happening in the US and in Britain in real life at the time.

I started quoting from Wikipedia's Timeline of Women's Legal Rights for examples but there's too many actually, so I'm just linking it.

Anyway, I would say that gender play is, if not strictly necessary, then at least strongly desired as a facet of bodice rippers, because have you seen the entire concept of omegaverse. When we weren't comfortable using real genders for this people just flat out invented fantasy genders to use for it instead. Sometimes sentinel/guide gets used the same way, as does psychic wolves and of course Pern dragon colors.

But I don't think bodice rippers are necessary to explain it.

Looking through that Wikipedia list, the late 60s and early 70s had a lot of countries and states changing their laws to allow abortion if it was to save the life of the mother, and a few mentions of birth control being made legal for married couples; it's specified at least once in Dragonflight that Fax deliberately keeps his wives pregnant in an attempt to kill them, and Lady Gemma does indeed die.

There are a lot of entries about women fighting for the right to careers (horse jockey, reporter, stewardess, bartender, lawyer) and equal pay, and in the late 70s we get Dragonsong and Dragonsinger.

I don't (in my quick peek during work) see any mentions of laws or court cases about directly equivalent situations to the whole "Lessa isolated in the Weyr, taught nothing useful and not allowed to speak to anyone that might be on her side" thing, but like... that's pretty hard to legislate. Given that abortion rights, the right for women to own their own property, and the right to have jobs and equal pay were all recurring themes, I think it's a safe bet that 'abusive husband/father/other male family isolates a woman and sabotages her education and friendships in order to control her' was probably something in the general feminist consciousness at the time.

So. basically. Anne McCaffrey was absolutely coming from a bodice ripper background, and that's why we have mating flights, but I think the rest of the sexism was mostly because all of it was happening in the world around her as she wrote, and so she wrote about it.

i still think that one of the worst things pernese history implies is that if you had a society where misogyny is supposed to be gone or at least greatly reduced and then took away their technology and put them in a hard situation they would re-evolve hardcore misogyny again, where women are clearly and obviously seen as lesser and can't have some jobs or be leaders. it's lazy, it implies that misogyny is because of something inherent about women, and it doesn't even make sense in the context in which it's presented.

"they felt the need to protect women because they can get pregnant and they were worried about population," cool, give them like, a sense of high value around the weight and importance of pregnancy then, or if you want it to be something negative that people who can become pregnant face, add in heavy expectations around getting pregnant/ taking care of yourself or being taken care of during pregnancy.

#Pern #also Dragonsdawn was published a full two decades after Dragonflight which I think is like. Relevant.#to the 'where did all this sexism come from?!' question #we don't have a good logical explanation because the sexism came first and the egalitarian past was the retcon #I have! a lot of other thoughts!#but unfortunately I also have work

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