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felassan · 4 years ago

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Some DA trivia and dev commentary from Twitter

There’s a lot of different tweets, so I’m just pasting and linking to the source rather than screencapping them all or making several different posts or something. Post under cut for length.

User: Was dragon age 2 your favourite in the franchise?

David Gaider: DA2 was the project where my writing team was firing on all cylinders, and they wrote like the wind- because they had to! Second draft? Pfft. Plot reviews? Pfft. I was so proud of what we all accomplished in such a brief time. I didn't think it was possible. [source] DA2 is, however, also where the goal posts kept moving. Things kept getting cut, even while we worked. I had to write that dialogue where Orsino turned even if you sided with him, because his boss battle had been cut and there was no time to fix the plot. A real WTF moment. >:( [source]

Mike Rousseau: I remember bugging that! And then being told it wasn't a bug, and being so confused. Doing QA for DA2 was an experience. Trial by fire. [source]

DG: So I think it's safe to say DA2 is my favorite entry in the DA franchise and also the sort of thing I never want to live through ever again. Mixed feelings galore. [source]

User: (I personally blame whoever it was for ruining most romance arcs in other games for me; they don't live up to Fenris's romance storyline)

DG: I wrote Fenris, so uh - me, I guess? Or maybe his cinematic designer, who put in the puppy dog eyes. [source]

User: If DA2 had just been an expansion, do you think it would have been better received? There was a lot of great stuff in there, and I think my initial dislike of it was because of the zone reuse. If it hadn't needed to be a full game, would that issue not have arisen?

DG: Hard to say. It was either going to be an over-scoped expansion or an under-scoped sequel. If it had stayed an expansion, it might never have received the resources/push it DID get. [source]

User: I'd love to visit the universe where you had an extra year or so to work on it. You did a very good job as it stands, but it definitely had rough edges. Not just the writing team either. The whole game had hit and miss moments, that just a little more dev time could have fixed.

DG: On one hand, DA2 existed to fill a hole in the release schedule. More time was never in the cards. DA2 was originally planned as an expansion! On the other, if we had more time, would we have started doing that thing where we second guess/iterate ourselves into mediocrity? [shrug emoji] [source]

Jennifer Hepler: This is what I love about DA2. Personally, I greatly prefer something that's rough and raw and sincere to something that's had all the soul polished out of it. Extra time would have helped for art and levels, but it would have lost something too. [source]

DG: Right? I think we could have used some time for peer reviews (and fewer cuts), but I think the rawness of the writing lent a certain spark that we usually polished out. [source]

JH: Definitely. I think the structure (more character-driven) and the tightness of the timeframe let each individual writer's voice really come through. Polish can be very homogenizing. [source]

DG: I should add I'm not, by any means, against iteration. Some iteration is good and necessary. The problem that BioWare often had is that we never knew when to stop. Like a goldfish, we would fill the space given to us by constantly re-iterating on things that were "good enough". [source]

Patrick Weekes: I appreciate your incredibly diplomatic use of the past tense on "had". :D [source]

User: DA2 was my gateway into the series and I’m so happy it is. I love the game the way that it is. It’s one of my favorites of all time. But I am also aware of everything that was said here. If it were remastered, do you think it would change?

DG: I'd be surprised if it was ever remastered. If it was, do you really think they'd change things? Do remasters do that? No idea. [source]

User: Both sides got undercut as I recall. Didn't that whole sequence also end with the mage leader embracing blood magic? It was very much "a plague on both your houses" moment, at least for me.

DG: Yep. Orsino was supposed to have his own version of Meredith's end battle, which only happened if you sided with the templars. That got cut, but the team still wanted to use the model we'd made for him. So... that happened. [source]

DG: I would personally say that DA2 is a fantastic game hidden under a mountain of compromises, cut corners, and tight deadlines. If you can see past all that, you'll see a fantastic game. I don't doubt, however, that it's very difficult for most to do that. [source]

PW: I love DAI with all my selfish "I worked on this" heart, but DA2's follower arcs and relationships are probably my favorite in the series. [source]

User: As I've expressed many times, I love the game, especially it's writing and characters but, for me, the most impressive aspect of it, in consideration of it's lack of time for drafts and revisions, is the 2nd act with Arishok. What amazingly complex character and fantastic duel

User: Just played it again and I have to agree. Though he is bound by the harsher tenants of the Qun, he makes valid points about free marcher society. Though it is obvious that he and Hawke will come to blows eventually, the tension builds gradually and understandably

DG: Luke did such a fantastic job with the Arishok I found myself sometimes wishing the Qunari plot had just been THE plot. [source]

User: What do you think would have changed, story wise, if you had more time for DA2?

DG: I would have taken out that thing where Meredith gets the idol. It was forced on me because she needed to be "super-powered" with red lyrium for her final battle. Being "crazy", however, robbed her side of the mage/templar argument of any legitimacy. I hated hated hated that. [source]

User: I deeply lament that there wasn't/couldn't be some sort of DA2 equivalent of Throne of Bhaal's Ascension mod.

DG: I'd have done it, if DA2 had allowed for anything but the most rudimentary of modding. ;) [source]

User: I mean, and I think I understand where you were trying, but how much legitimacy did the Templars and her as top Templar have after they're keeping the mages locked up against their will in the old slave quarters? Feel free to not reply.

DG: I think it's the kind of discussion which requires nuance, and which discussions on the Internet are not prone to. [source]

User: Was a compromise that the quest lines don’t branch? It felt like it was supposed to be that way but then you end up in the same place later regardless of what you pick. Like I hoodwinked the templars so good to help the apostates escape but in Act II they were caught anyway.

DG: I remember us having a lot more branching in the initial planning yes. Most of this got trimmed out in the first or second wave of cuts, in an effort to not cut the plots altogether. [source]

DG: "If you could Zack Snyder DA2, what would you change?" Wow. I'm willing to bet Mark or Mike (or anyone else on the team) would give very different answers than me, but it's enough to give a sober man pause, because that was THE Project of Multiple Regrets. [source] I mean, it's the most hypothetical of hypotheticals. It's never gonna happen. I wouldn't be surprised if EA considered DA2 its embarrassing red-headed stepchild. We'd also need to ignore that in many ways DA2 was as good as it was bad BECAUSE of how it was made. But that aside? [source] First, either restore the progressive changes to Kirkwall we'd planned over the passing of in-game years or reduce the time between acts to months instead of years... which, in hindsight, probably should have been done as soon as the progressive stuff was cut. [source] I'm sure you're like "get rid of repeated levels!" ...but I don't care about that. All I wanted was for Kirkwall to feel like a bigger city. Way more crowded. More alive! Fewer blood mages. [source] I'd want to restore the plot where a mage Hawke came THIS close to becoming an abomination. An entire story spent trapped in one's own head while trapped on the edge of possession. Why? Because Hawke is the only mage who apparently never struggles with this. It was a hard cut. [source]

User: I would LOVE to hear more details about this! I don’t suppose there’s any chance of a short story?

DG: I don't even remember the details of the story, sorry. There was a fight, and you caught the bad guy and then realized none of it was real and woke up idk [source]

DG: I'd want to restore all those alternate lines we cut, meaning people forget they'd met you. Or that they knew you were a mage. Or, oh god, that maybe they'd romanced you in DAO. So much carnage. [source] I'd want to restore the Act 3 plots we cut only because they were worked on too late, but which would have made the buildup to the mage/templar clash less sudden. Though I don't remember what they were, now. Some never got beyond being index cards posted on the wall. [grimace emoji] [source] As I mentioned elsewhere, I'd want to restore Orsino's end battle so he wouldn't need to turn on you even if you sided with him. And I'd want an end fight with the templars that didn't require Meredith to have red lyrium and go full Tetsuo. [source] Heck, maybe an end decision where you sided with neither the mages nor the templars. Because it certainly ended up feeling like you could brand both sides as batshit pretty legitimately, no? That was never planned, tho. No idea how to make that feel like an actual path atm. [source] Maybe an option to go "umm, Anders... what are you DOING?" 👀 [source] And, of course, a Varric romance, because Mary took that "slimy car salesman" character we'd planned and did the impossible with him. I can feel Mary glaring at me for even suggesting this, tho. [source] Lastly, the original expanded opening to the game which allowed you to spend time with Bethany and Carver BEFORE the darkspawn attacked. And, um, that's about it off the top of my head. Zack Snyder, WHAT PANDORA'S BOX HAVE YOU OPENED. [source] Shit, I remembered two more things: 1) Restore the "Varric exaggerates the heck out of the story" at the beginning of every Act, until Cassandra calls him on it. Yes, that was a thing. 2) Make DA: Exodus. Yes, I am still bitter. [source] God damn it, I meant "Make DA: Exalted March". The DA2 expansion, NOT Exodus since that was DA2's original name and makes no sense. Because the expansion ended with Varric dying, and that will always be on my "things left undone" list. [source]

User: Whaaaat?

DG: Well, you know that scene in Wrath of Khan where Spock goes into the dilithium chamber because he's a Vulcan? Well, imagine that but with Varric and red lyrium and because he's a dwarf. ;) [source]

John Epler: I distinctly remember referencing the bit from MGS4 where you crawl through the microwave corridor in the split screen, while cinematic battle rages on the other half. [source]

DG: It would have been glorious, John. Glorious. [source]

JE: I don't think I've ever been so certain what a shot should look like as I did Hawke coming in and finding Varric in the broken throne, just like when he was telling Cassandra his story. [source]

DG: It would have come full circle! Auggghh, it still kills me. [source]

User: Lord, you folks are a little too good at this.

JE: The true secret behind videogame narrative is knowing how to make yourself seem a lot more clever than you actually are. [source] 'Oh, we TOTALLY planned that.' [source]

User: Ok, this thread [the DA2 regrets thread, which is the big chunks above] but Inquisition.

DG: My regrets about Inquisition are, more or less, the normal kind. Nothing so dramatic, I'm afraid. [source]

User: You can keep your Varric romance, I want a Flemeth romance goddamnit!

DG: I would allow for one flirt option, and then a recording of Kate Mulgrew laughing for three minutes straight. [source]

User: I had a hypothesis about the repetitive caves in DA2. They're repetitive because it's Varric telling the story and he didn't consider them important. They're like sets in a play. (Okay, I really suspect it was a time/money/resources thing but I like my fake explanation better.)

DG: Hang a lampshade on it, maybe? Cassandra: "But that's the exact cave you were in last time?" Varric: "Whatever. They all look the same, I'm not THAT kind of dwarf. Can we move on?" [source]

User: that makes sense, hypothetically to make Varric romanceable and keep his arc—that had to happen for the main plot—I imagine you would have to make double the content (or more)? which would've been a tall order given the time/budget constraints the game was under

DG: Right. When it comes to "romance arc" vs. "follower story arc", we generally only had time to do one or the other. Never both. Romancing Varric would have meant not getting the story of his that you did. [source]

Mary Kirby: The one exaggeration I really, REALLY wanted, that we never got to do was Varric narrating his own death scene with Hawke weeping over him, then cutting to Cassandra's pissed off glaring at him. [source]

DG: Haha! The one I wanted was Varric's plot where he takes on the baddies single-handedly, sliding across the floor like Jet Lee, action movie-style, until finally Cassandra gets irritated and he has to admit Hawke & the rest of the party showed up to help. [source]

MK: We did that one! (He didn't do any Jet Lee moves, though.) Jepler gave him letterboxing to get The Good, the Bad, & the Ugly showdown vibes while he shot a ton of mooks single-handed. [source]

DG: Wow. Shows how much I remember. [source]

JE: I found it! I remember seeing this sequence as my treat for doing a bunch of much more challenging work. It was fun to see how far I could push our limited library of animations. [link] [source]

DG: Heh awesome. I could have sworn it was cut, honestly. I think I was even in that meeting. [source]

User: no disrespect but that’s surprising and rich of Mary “Hard in Hightown” Kirby to think DA2 shouldn’t have had a Varric romance when she wrote an entire book of Varric’s self-insert character pining over his Hawke insert character… HIH is the reason we had VHawke Summer 2018

DG: I can't *really* speak for Mary, or how she feels about it now compared to back then. I only know how she felt about it back then, and I'm not sure it was as much the concept of the romance but that Varric's entire story would be bent to "romance arc" ...a very different thing. [source]

JH: I remember pushing to have the first DLC start with Hawke having an option to ask Varric, "Did you tell Cassandra about us?" and if you picked it, Varric would answer, "Of course not, baby. I told her you were sleeping with X..." and then proceed as if you had had a full romance. [source]

DG: I still wonder how that would have gone over. x) [source]

JE: Okay, one more DA2 thing. Putting together the cinematics for this scene was a blast. [link] [source]

MK: These lines are my greatest legacy. I want "Make sure the world knows I died... at Chateau Haine!" inscribed on my tombstone. [source]

JE: I was so glad no one said 'no' to the crane shot. [source]

MK: It needs that crane shot. It's the perfect icing on that cake made from solid cheese. [source]

DG: The designers were all "we need more combat" and I think we were all "I think you underestimate just HOW interesting we can make this dinner party". [source]

JE: And finally. I think @SherylChee wrote the one-liner. I think we had a collection of like, 20. [link] [source]

Sheryl Chee: Yeah! Something like that! I remember submitted a whole bunch and Frank said you only needed one. Wish I'd kept the other fifteen. [source]

JE: A random chooser where, each time through the scene, you get a different one-liner. [source]

JE: DA2 is the project I'm the proudest of. I also absolutely get that it didn't land for a lot of people. But I don't think it's inaccurate to say that, in a lot of ways, DA2 defined my career. [source] Everyone spent a year working at their maximum ability. I was a fresh cinematic designer and was given all of Varric's content, as well as the Act 1 Finale mission. It was a lot for someone who had been doing the Cinematics thing for literally 6 months. [source] There's some stuff in there I can't look at without wincing. And there's some stuff I'm genuinely proud of. Not to mention, it was my introduction to most of the writing team. Several of whom I'm still working with today! Albeit in a different capacity [source] Also, weirdly, one of my most enduring memories of Dragon Age 2 is how much Bad Company 2 we'd play at lunch. It was a LOT. [source] Every game I've worked on has a game I played attached to it. ME2 is Borderlands. DA2 is Bad Company 2. DAI is DayZ. I, hmm. There's a progression there. I don't know how I feel about it. [source]

User: Is DA4 going to be tarkov then?

JE: I've kind of churned out of Tarkov for now. Probably Hunt Showdown, at least right now. [source]

User: I think people also don't take nuance into consideration -- like I FULLY acknowledge the flaws in my favorite games and will openly criticize them, but that doesn't mean they're not my favorite games anymore??? You can like and thing and still be critical of it.

JE: A lot of my favourite shit is deeply flawed! I acknowledge it and I think it's interesting to dissect the flaws. [source]

User: I still wish Justice was an actual character in DA2 rather than a plot point.

DG: There was a moment during DAI where we *almost* put in you running into Justice with the Grey Wardens, and he's all "Kirkwall? I never went to Kirkwall" [source]

User: Does that imply that Justice was shoehorned in to DA2?

DG: Nah, it was an in-joke where we thought it'd be fun to suggest that "Justice" was simply some demon that tricked Anders in DA2. Wooo those tricky demons! We didn't do it, though. [source]

User: [about templars] except, I don't think it had very much legitimacy to begin with. keep in mind, we interact with other characters with the same argument. The one that comes to mind is Cullen, a sane templar in power. The templar's side of the argument is inherently flawed.

DG: I don't doubt that many people agree with you, and yet people can and do argue on behalf of the templars as well. My place isn't to pick a side, but to provide evidence that players can interpret for themselves [source]

User: Can you shed some light for us on how DA was able to do multiple same-sex romance options for different genders but the Mass Effect team treated them like the plague? What process existed for your team that just wasn't their for the other tentpole franchise?

DG: Different people making the decisions, almost different cultures. I don't know what it's like now, but for many years the Mass Effect team and the Dragon Age team were almost like two different studios working within the same building. [source]

User: It truly boggles the mind. Kudos for doing demonstrably better on consistent queer representation than the ME teams. Y'all never needed us to make petitions to try to get the studio's attention and ask them to do better by us. That's the fight we're once again embroiled in now.

DG: Honestly, I don't feel like tut-tutting the Mass Effect team. They did their part, and if they were a bit later to the show than the DA team they certainly did more than almost every other game out there -- and willingly. [source]

Updates begin here

User: So what was the reason for naming Dragon age 2 "Dragon age II" and not using a subtitle?

DG: As I recall, that was purely a publisher decision. I think they wanted to avoid the impression it was an expansion. [source]

User: Is there no chance of ever remaking DA2 under better circumstances? -Somehow remove the repetitiveness of gameplay by making changes and updating the tech and adding much more to the storyline. It could almost be a new very exciting game.

DG: I'd say there's zero chance of that. Let's keep our hopes up for the next DA title instead. [source]

User: I am a little confused here, help me out here please! How exactly was the cut boss battle with Orsino supposed to work out? How it would've kept him from turning against the player?

DG: It means that, if you sided with the templars, the entire boss bottle at the end would have been against Orsino and the mages. No fight against Meredith. The end decision would have been more divergent. [source]

User: I do remember that one of the reasons going around for that, was that resources were going to the transition to Frostbite. I'm still not fully sold on that having been a good choice. I felt that more time should have been given for that transition considering it was made for FPSs

DG: We didn't transition to Frostbite until DAI. Given our time frame for DA2, I don't think we *could* have transitioned to a new engine. [source]

User: Since your talking about the what could have been for DA2. Could you say what your script was for Anthem? Cause I remember reading that you wrote the plot on that game.

DG: I created a setting for Anthem and scripted out a plot - but, as I understand it, almost none of that ended up being used. So it's a bit pointless to talk about what I'd planned, as that'd be for some completely different type of game. [source]

User: [in reference to the exchange above where DG said “Being "crazy", however, robbed her side of the mage/templar argument of any legitimacy. I hated hated hated that.” re: Meredith] except, I don't think it had very much legitimacy to begin with. keep in mind, we interact with other characters with the same argument. The one that comes to mind is Cullen, a sane templar in power. The templar's side of the argument is inherently flawed.

If I missed a tweet, got the wrong source link or included a tweet twice, feel free to let me know and I’ll correct.

Edit / Update: Post update 22nd April

#dragon age #bioware #video games #fenris #the Fenaissance #long post #longpost #cassandra pentaghast #my lady paladin #dragon age 4 #the dread wolf rises #da4 #mass effect

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catboyclarity · 2 years ago

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Do shadowhunters for the ask game coward

OK SINCE YOURE DETERMINED TO BRING ME SHAME

Favorite male character:

Hate to say it but Sebastian. Idk you can’t give me a guy who is canonically only evil bc of something that we see within the text is completely out of his control and not have me attach to him!! Also he is just a lot of fun. However. Normal answer is Luke I like Luke :) werewolf dad. n Matthew is my special little guy also.

Favorite female character:

I rlly like almost all of the women in The Last Hours, Cordelia is probably my favorite lead character in the entire ‘verse so I’ll go with her.

Least favorite character:

I really hated Jordan when I was first reading the series although that hatred was somewhat diminished by the fact that he had the good graces to die and that he was going to get dumped before dying. Also see the Almost All in the above answer: I do not care for Grace Blackthorn. Or Jesse Blackthorn for that matter although he is just boring EVEN THOUGH HES A GHOST!!!

Prettiest character:

If anybody answered this with anybody but Magnus they would be lying to themselves and to god.

Funniest character:

It is also Magnus.

Favorite season (arc):

If The Last Hours can finish in a decent manner that one but as it stands just the Mortal Instruments baby. I will always have a powerful emotional attachment to it anyway bc I read it as a teenager during a most wretched and traumatizing time and it allowed me some escapism and comfort and also netted me the worlds best boyfriend so!!

Favorite book:

City of Heavenly Fire is literally not good. I don’t care though it makes me feel alive I love it.

Favorite romantic ship:

I don’t know man there’s like 800 options it is quite a romance focused franchise. I plead the fifth.

Favorite family ship (can we phrase that differently???):

They end up just actual family bc Luke becomes her step dad but I like Luke and Clary’s whole deal.

Favorite friendship:

Lucy and Cordelia :)

Least favorite ship:

I straight up do not believe in Isabelle/Simon it does not feel believable to me and they both make each other act out of character and more boring. I think Isabelle should be aromantic in my opinion.

#asks

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ariainstars · 4 years ago

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Star Wars, the Last 20 Years or Can We Please Try to Stop the Blame Train?

I would like to touch a subject that’s starting to grate on my nerves a little.

Anyone here knows that I disliked The Rise of Skywalker heartily. And I’m not the only person here or elsewhere who tore it to shreds. But I am reading (again) over and over why and how JJ Abrams, Chris Terrio, Kathleen Kennedy and Co. made this mess. Instead of searching for culprits, this time I would like to point out a few things.

I. Star Wars Prequels

Jake Lloyd, Ahmed Best and Hayden Christensen had to endure awful harassment in their time: the audience largely vented their frustration on them because when the prequels hit theatres, they did not get the Star Wars they had wanted. Politics are a dry subject, and young Anakin and the Jedi Council were all too human to be liked by fans who expect coolness in a hero more than everything else; which is probably why Darth Maul is a huge favorite although we hardly learn anything about him and he says almost nothing. Ditto Obi-Wan although he is clearly not suited to train Anakin and it’s him who maims him and leaves him to burn in the lava. (Until I saw the film, I had always assumed Palpatine had tortured Anakin to push him to the Dark Side.)

The prequels’ messages in general were not liked: the Jedi were not perfectly wise and cool wizards, the Old Republic was stagnant, Anakin was a hot-headed, frustrated young man desperate to save his wife and unborn children. The films do not want to excuse what he did; however they portray him not as a monster but as a human being who was under an almost unendurable pressure for years and years until he finally snapped.

These messages may not be “cool”, but they were realistic and most of all, humane. Portraying the Jedi as well as Anakin as powerful, flawless heroes and the old Republic as a just, prosperous and balanced place would have meant undermining a central theme of the original trilogy: the former generation could not have been all that powerful and wise, else the collapse of their world and the failure of their convictions would not have happened in the first place. It is a sore point, but still twenty years later Obi-Wan and Yoda denied that Vader was human and expected Luke to commit patricide.

All of this goes to show that the Jedi’s moral standard was flawed and their attitude not rooted in compassion and pacifism the way they claimed. In the end, what they cared about was winning, no matter the cost. In this, they were no better than the Sith.

~~~more under the cut~~~

II. Star Wars Sequels

J.J. Abrams, Kathleen Kennedy, Bob Iger and company were the ones who introduced the Star Wars sequel trilogy and with it its themes, characters, setting etc. to us in the first place: I think we should give them credit where it’s due. Rian Johnson made a very beautiful second chapter with The Last Jedi, but he did pick up where the others had left.

Kelly Marie Tran made experiences similar to Jake Lloyds or Hayden Christensen’s when The Last Jedi was hit theatres. She was disliked for not being “Star-Wars-y” enough, chubby and lively instead of wiry and spitfire, and also taking a lot of screen time while many fans were impatiently waiting for some grand scenes from Luke and / or Leia.

That Episode VIII, the central and most important one, was called “The Last Jedi” cannot be overstated. Luke was literally alone with the heavy task of rebuilding a religious order that was gone and destroyed long before he even learned about it, and at the same time he had to patch together his own family and atone for his father’s sins. This is a crushing burden for anyone to carry. It was important both for Rey and for the audience to meet Luke to see that he was a good man, but still just a man.

When Luke spoke openly to Rey about the failure of the Jedi Order, it was the first time he ever spoke about it that we know of; this wisdom he obviously acquired only after his nephew’s fall to the Dark Side. Luke has understood that the ways of the Jedi were wrong; but he does not know a better alternative. Force users are still born all over the galaxy, and they have to learn to use their powers - only how? Again, Luke is not to blame. How is he to know, when the Jedi of the Old Republic had lost sight of Balance in the Force for so long that they didn’t know what it actually meant anymore?

Same goes for Leia, the princess without a realm, who tried to rebuild the Republic after the galaxy had been terrorized by the Empire and devastated by war for many years. She assuredly did her best, but she was only human. That she failed her son is of course shocking, but after the horror she had to endure at the hands of her own father it is not surprising that she would be terrified of her son possibly going the same way. Ben, like Anakin, was crushed under a legacy and responsibility that was by far too heavy for him. The tragedy of his life and the disruption - and in the end, obliteration - of his family was another proof for the failure of the ways of the Jedi.

All of these lessons until now were not learned from. But let’s be honest: how many of us come from dysfunctional families? If we do, was getting away from them enough to heal the wounds of the past? Did we find out what to give our children on their way in life, or did we fail them because we had not elaborated the past enough to make way for a better future? Such problems are very common, and to heal them is complicated and takes time. A “happy ending” e.g. in form of finding a new family is not enough, on the contrary, it can lead to wanting to leave the past behind, leaving wounds unhealed that will fester their way through our lives again, sooner or later. Star Wars always was an allegory of the human mind, even if deeply cloaked in symbolism. The saga also abundantly takes inspiration from the Bible, and I think it’s not coincidentally said there that the sins of the fathers are visited upon the children.

As fans, we would have wanted to see films that cemented the Jedi as guardians of the galaxy, with the Skywalker family right at the center. Which in itself is impossible because Jedi are supposed to remain unattached, making the mere idea of a Jedi having a family absurd. If the prequels told us that the Jedi were flawed, the sequels tore down the myth of the Skywalker family. And both trilogies showed that you can’t be a Skywalker and / or a Jedi / Force user and have attachments and a happy family of your own at the same time. At least, not until now.

III. Film production

Many fans of old complained because the sequel trilogy implied that the “happy ending” of the original trilogy’s heroes had not been so happy after all and that after having made peace for the galaxy, they had failed to keep it that way. Other viewers however liked the new trilogy and new characters right away and began to root for them. But they, too, jumped on the blame train when the trilogy had ended: expectations were not met, and now director, producers, script writers, cutters etc. are faulted all over again.

The first person coming up with the idea of Han’s and Leia’s only child turning to the Dark Side was Lucas himself. It always was a main theme of the saga that war separates people who actually belong together, like family, couples or close friends; that is not played for mere drama, but because it emphasizes the absurdity of war.

We as the audience do not know how production went - it is very possible that Lucas approved the general storyline, and there is always a whole team on board. It is not easy to purchase such a large and immensely popular franchise; it was to be expected that if things went not the way the audience expected, the Disney studios would be blamed harshly for having “ruined Star Wars”. With the prequels, at least Lucas was still at the helm; it was conceded that maybe he had lost his magic touch with storytelling, but certainly not that he was trying deliberately to ruin his own creation. And the fans who could not praise the Disney studios enough after The Last Jedi came out, now blame them over and over.

The Disney studios have long-term politics to consider and contracts to observe, and we don’t know their contents. We have every right to be disappointed, but I think it’s not fair to blame one or a particular group of persons who are trying their best to satisfy as many viewers as possible. If they simply wanted to satisfy the average dudebro who sees nothing but clichés, two-dimensional characters and Good against Evil - then why did they allow The Last Jedi to be produced in the first place? The studios obviously are aware that there are fans out there who are ready to look deeper in the saga’s themes, who wish to see the Force coming to Balance, who value family, friendship and love over “victory at any cost”, and who do not place the Jedi on some kind of pedestal.

In a sense, The Rise of Skywalker seems like a bow before The Last Jedi: the weakest chapter of the saga followed one of its strongest. Maybe the authors were aware that equaling or even topping what Rian Johnson had created would be next to impossible, so they patched up the open threads of The Force Awakens together with some fan service hoping to be out of the business as quickly as possible.

In retrospect, the infamous podcast with Charles Soule might also be tell-tale: Soule obviously is not elbows-deep in the saga and largely ignores its subtext. Since his The Rise of Kylo Ren comics are quite well-made, I assume that the general storyline did not stem from his own creativity and that he only carried out what he had been advised to do. The production of the whole sequel trilogy may have happened in a similar way. I am not excusing the poor choices of The Rise of Skywalker; merely considering that one or a few persons cannot be blamed in a studio that has thousands of creative minds on board.

I am still hoping for the next trilogy to finally bring Balance to the galaxy, and also into the fandom. Rian Johnson had negotiated the rights for the next trilogy along with The Last Jedi; I assume it is very possible that there was a clause about intellectual property saying that only he would continue Episode VIII’s topics, nobody else. This would at least be an explanation, given the embarrassing, jumbled mess that Episode IX was.

The overall title of the saga assuredly never wanted to inspire the audience to start online wars attacking the studios or the actors or other fans out of the conviction of being entitled to blame someone else’s worldview. The saga’s message is compassion. Both George Lucas and the Disney studios are telling us their story; the idea and the rights do not belong to us. Harping on “whose fault” it allegedly is won’t bring us anywhere; what we can do is make the studios understand that we’re not too stupid not to understand the subtext, the symbolism and metaphysics of the saga beyond the action story. If they listened to the Last Jedi haters, in all fairness they are bound to listen to us, too. 😊

IV. Will Ben’s story continue?

My husband already warned me years ago that Ben most probably wouldn’t survive, or at least not get a happy ending. As Kylo Ren he had already been the head of a criminal organization for six years at the start of The Force Awakens, but all of that perhaps could still have been condoned within the scope of war. It was the very personal and intentional act of patricide, the killing of an unarmed, forgiving man, who turned him into a damned person. And after the deed, Ben was aware of it. He knew there was no way out for him, he had gone too far.

Many members of the audience did not understand that Kylo / Ben is not an out-and-out villain and that this narrative ultimately was about his redemption. Bringing him back to the Resistance after the Exegol battle alive and by Rey’s side would not have been accepted; how was Rey to explain everything when she hardly understood it herself? How would the audience have reacted to the former head of a criminal organization, a patricide, suddenly standing out as a hero? Remember how in Return of the Jedi Luke asked Vader to come away with him. Now suppose Vader had complied? It would have seemed (and been) sheer madness. Nobody would have believed neither father nor son that the terror of the galaxy had had a sudden turn of heart. Nobody knew that he was Luke’s father; Luke himself did not know Anakin’s backstory; nobody knew what had transpired between Luke and Vader so far. Yes, Ben was young and healthy, but he still had terrorized the galaxy for years and killed his own father. He knew himself that he was damned and could not go back to normality, as Vader did.

Rey was coded as the heroine: narratively, the sequel trilogy was her story. Ben couldn’t become the hero, with or without her, at the very last moment. She usurped power like her grandfather in his time, the Skywalker family was obliterated the way the Jedi were, she takes over another mantle (Skywalker) the way Palpatine did (becoming the Emperor). Balance in the Force never was truly in the cards, it was only vaguely hinted at in The Last Jedi by the Force mosaic in the Ahch-To temple. Balance is a complex and difficult subject; it would have been extremely difficult to develop it in the sequel trilogy together with introducing the new characters and giving the old ones closure.

However: if Ben is brought back in the next trilogy, his sacrifice for Rey will have been his atonement. If his role this time is not that of the villain but of the hero, it would reverse Anakin’s path and make clear that he no longer is the same man. Vader was redeemed, not rehabilitated. His grandson might still have the chance to go that way.

- Luke had promised Rey a third lesson, and it happened. He also had promised Ben to “see him around”, which has not taken place yet.

- On Tatooine, Rey watches the twin suns setting, same as Luke before he met the other half of his soul (his twin sister) again.

- The studios had said that the sequels would be “very much like the prequels”; the prequels were a tragedy where the Dark Side (Palpatine) won that was followed by a fairy tale where the Light Side won.

- The Skywalker saga is closed, so if Ben comes back it would be justified by his being a Solo, i.e. the story of his own family and not his grandfather’s.

- Given the parallels with Beauty and the Beast, the Beast died before the broken spell brought him back, making him a wholly new person - his past identity, purged and redeemed.

- George Lucas repeatedly said that the prequels and the classics belong together as one narrative, with Anakin Skywalker at its center. First news of the next trilogy came up with The Last Jedi. Since there are strong parallels between Ben and his grandfather, we may assume that this six-chapter instalment will be his; Anakin also was left for dead but came back with a wholly different role and name.

- When Anakin was reborn as Darth Vader, he “rose” slowly from the ground, clad in his black armor. Ben fell to the ground abruptly and shed his black clothes, disappearing. This could be another clue. (It was also already speculated that Leia’s body dissolved exactly in this moment because she gave her life-force to her son for him to have another chance to live. Both Han and Luke had done what they could to atone for their remorse towards Ben; this might be her turn.)

- Much as I love Luke Skywalker, I can understand that Lucas did not see him as the saga’s protagonist. The overall arch is not so much about Luke’s heroism than about Anakin’s redemption and atonement. It is unusual because we expect the story’s “hero” to be the one who kills the Bad Guy; and indeed Anakin is, because he kills Palpatine in the end, the twist being that technically he is also a villain though not the archvillain.

- Ben had promised Anakin he would finish what he started. Anakin had been meant to bring Balance to the Force, and he had started a family. Until now, Ben did neither.

- If Ben and Rey are a dyad, i.e. one soul in two bodies, then Rey is in urgent need of her soulmate for her future tasks. She has her friends of course, but none of them gets her the way he did.

So, I still see reason to hope for a continuation, and, hopefully, satisfying conclusion of The Last Jedi’s themes.

Film production: on a side note…

In the Nineties, Kirk Wise and Gary Trousdale were the directors both of Beauty and the Beast and Atlantis: two more different stories are hardly imaginable with regard to everything - drawing style, setting, characters, development, music etc. This outcome can’t have been only due to the director’s choices, there must have been a wholly different idea behind both films right from the beginning. Just saying.

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popwasabi · 4 years ago

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Why I don’t give a fuck about canon

Recently, after randomly coming across some dope pictures of Transformer toys on Instagram that gave me a strong case of nostalgia, I was inspired to revisit an old childhood favorite in “Beast Wars.”

“Beast Wars,” in case you never watched or heard of it as a kid, is the continuation of the Transformer’s story set in the future as descendants of the Auotobots and Decepticons, the Maximals and Predacons, respectively, accidentally travel to prehistoric Earth to continue a centuries long battle between the two opposing factions.

There’s a lot of to digest there, so I’m not going to go into extreme detail over the plot, but the cast features colorful characters such as Optimus Primal, Cheetor, Rattrap, Dinobot and Megatron to name a few. They all have interesting and distinct personalities and generally play well off each other. It was a big part of my childhood and I collected an ungodly amount of their toys back in the day.

(This was my first ever Beast Wars toy and I think it’s beautiful.)

My rewatch though was…a mixed bag to say the least. The graphics have not aged well. The adventure of the week setup of the plot was repetitive and lacked real character development at times. There were characters that were added in last minute to the show clearly to promote a new action figure over the story on numerous occasions. Though I found the humor to still be pretty good, the action was stale and just lacked high stakes most of the time, save for a few episodes.

I was not shocked it didn’t land terribly well on my rewatch but you know what did? “Beast Machines!”

“Beast Machines” was the follow-up to Beast Wars that had the Maximals fighting on Cybertron where Megatron has taken control of the whole planet using a virus that changes Transformers into mindless drones to do his bidding. The remaining Maximals manage to survive however after Optimus discovers The Oracle which reformats them into animal robot hybrids that are both mechanical and biological. This sets them on a quest to stop Megatron and bring biological and mechanical balance to Cybertron once and for all.

The series is much more narrative based than the previous as it follows a steady trajectory to its epic conclusion. The animation is much sharper, and the soundtrack is fun as hell to listen to still. The pacing is much faster as the stakes couldn’t be higher for the Maximals and all the old characters from the previous grow in interesting ways and develop into more organic people (literally in some ways). Optimus is a more hardcore and emotionally damaged leader and Megatron goes from being something of a punchline in the previous series to a far more menacing and calculating nemesis. The story touches on themes of balance, authoritarianism, PTSD, love and reunion to name a few and for a kids’ show it is, dare I say…more than meets the eye.

I absolutely loved it as a kid and I might actually love it even more as an adult, so it was shocking for me, to say the least, when I read further into the history of the show, that a lot of fans straight up rejected it back in the day.

Common complaints I came across were they didn’t like how characters, such as Ratrap especially, “changed.” They didn’t like the new bio/mechanical Maximals and couldn’t believe that Cybertron was once an organic world.

Their big reason (in just about every forum and video I saw about it)? It didn’t adhere to “canon.”

Now, I’ll start this by saying there is no objective way to critique or even not critique a story. People can like or hate something for a variety of reasons that don’t follow a strict logical pattern. Gods know I have a few questionable/divisive favorites in my catalogue that I have written about here that are based on abstract ideas and personal experiences.

(The Matrix Reloaded is still great btw)

But I will say, if you judge a mega franchise’s latest entry on how well it is supported by established canon it is, in my opinion, a flawed way to critique a work of fiction.

Canon, sometimes referred to as “lore” by fans, is most often applied and used to describe the long running back stories of franchises that stretch beyond just the main books, movies or series, or even the original narrative of the plot. Star Wars, Star Trek, Lord of the Rings, and to a certain extent Harry Potter, all fall into this camp of series with so many interconnected parts, with more than one main character featured in each, that fans follow along this canon like ancient monks studying scripture and history books.

And they can be just as fanatical and over zealous about it.

(I wish they were more fanatical about proper hygiene or at least deodorant...)

My problem with the ways fans often view canon is that their conceptions of what a new story should be is based entirely on the past rather than what is happening right now with the story and what themes the writer is trying express with it this time.

They base their impressions of the story on external continuity more than the internal continuity.

Yea, the changes in a series like “Beast Machines” are jarring to say the least. Cybertron was formally an organic world like Earth? Rattrap doesn’t have confidence in himself and actually at one point sells out his comrades? Transformers can be biological now? It’s a lot to take in but when watching the story play out it’s not like these elements aren’t explained through the text of the new story.

Cybertron lost balance between its robot inhabitants and its biological life forms and its why it’s out of balance now, and Megatron is the logical progression of that inbalance. Rattrap is struggling to understand his new form, half his friends on the Maximals have been turned into drones, and the remaining team out loud say they don’t have confidence in him. He has PTSD from both the events of this story and the Beast Wars and feels insecure because of how others view him and that’s perfectly logical to not just the story but also the canon. If a fan is willing to give a story a chance they will see that the canon hasn’t actually been destroyed in much of any way and the logical progression is actually there if they simply listen to what’s going on.

(Seriously, it’s not that deep.)

Fans need to stop confusing a character achieving a franchise long arc with being “suddenly different.” In this way, criticisms of canon in new entries in long running series reveal that fans really just lack imagination to connect the dots. It would be like complaining that Luke Skywalker can’t become paranoid and make a grave mistake in judgment because people never change, nevermind the character already has changed a lot from his origins in “A New Hope” to where he was in “Return of the Jedi.”

(Oh wait, people did do that…)

But that’s not to say you have to like the new direction either. You can understand these changes and still be like “well, it’s not for me. I don’t care for a PSTD angle or a new origin for Cybertron,” but that’s whole lot different than saying the new series “rapes your childhood” or “Bastardizes the canon.” All the old canon you hold nostalgia for still exists. My love for “Beast Machines” is not harmed by the existence of newer Transformers properties that don’t meet what I look for in the series.

Too often, fans take changes to established “lore” very personally because it doesn’t fit their expectations or have the same nostalgic feelings they had before. When new entries in mega franchises occur fans often try to judge it by how much it is like what they watched before, rather what makes it different and what it is saying now. Again, you don’t have to like new directions in tone or character but consistency to established work DOES NOT equal good storytelling.

I have not been immune to this myself in the past, of course. Back in the day I wrote a 2500-plus word diatribe on “The Amazing Spider-man 2” that mostly went after how it changed the character I grew up with in a bad way and butchered the established back story I knew him by.

You know what other story doesn’t follow canon very well though? “Spider-man: Homecoming.”

(Now, hear me out...)

Spider-man in the MCU is generally agreed upon to be a good thing by fans. Both movies were big hits both critically and financially and fans often go as far as to say Tom Holland is the “definitive” Peter Parker.

But Holland’s Spider-man differs quite a bit from the comic-book webslinger. This Spider-man does not have a spidey sense. His best friend is not Harry Osbourne but in fact a retcon of a Mile Morales character. His father figure is Tony Stark, something that never happened in the comics, instead of Uncle Ben, which no matter what way you spin it is arguably his most important relationship in the series.

His character is a reverse of traditional Peter Parker too. Where comics Peter is a reluctant hero, who if anything hates being Spider-man and the burden of his responsibility, “Homecoming” Spider-man actively seeks out responsibility and in many ways enjoys his role as the famous webslinger. In fact, his whole arc is about him earning a spot as an Avenger. He wants to be THE hero and be worthy of it. It’s completely different from what we know of Spider-man.

(He just wants Tony sempai to notice him uWu)

Now I know some fans actually do complain about this Spidey from a “canon” standpoint, but most don’t. So why did this Spider-man get a pass for many but not “The Amazing” one? Quite simply it’s because stories, as cheesy as it sounds, are about feelings and stories like “Homecoming” tell a good story that effectively make those feelings connect with the audience.

We root for this Peter Parker and his journey to becoming an Avenger and successor to Iron Man because the story is told well, the emotions feel earned, and frankly both films are fun and enjoyable.

It’s easy to complain about canon for many nerds because it’s something tangible that they can point to and make a big stink about when they don’t understand why a movie isn’t reaching them. I don’t doubt that many neckbeards genuinely hate a film like “The Last Jedi” (Hell, I’m not a big fan myself) but when those same nerds enjoy something like “The Mandalorian,” a series that has its own loose relationship with canon and establishing new rules in the series, it tells me it’s not about the “lore” to them.

(Easy, fanboys...)

I have come to understand, in my growth as a nerd, that my problems with a lot of movies and TV shows in my favorite series rarely, if ever, have anything to do with the story not meeting some arbitrary guidelines regarding canon. It has more to with the story simply not connecting with me emotionally. The story isn’t drawing me in and keeping me on its narrative path. I’m not feeling the same magic that someone else might feel enjoying it because either a) it doesn’t feel earned to me or b) it just stylistically isn’t for me.

To paraphrase a line from another mega franchise, also owned by Disney, the canon is more like guidelines than actual rules.

(Didn’t expect to see ol’ Barbosa in this write up, did ye?)

It can show you where a story comes from but it isn’t law that you strictly adhere to it. Of course, when writing a new work in a popular series you should consider what came before it but I would like writer’s the freedom to try something new and most importantly fans to be open to it. You don’t have to like it but the idea that new entries in a story MUST remain strict to the canon is bull shit. Not even the original Star Wars trilogy adhered to its own canon perfectly, as clearly the writers were in fact making it up to a certain extent as they were going along.

(hmmmm...)

And that’s ok, because some of those changes were great! Made the story better and made the conclusion stronger.

Again, you don’t have to like every new entry that tries something bold or confrontational in your favorite franchise but if writers strictly followed canon to the T we wouldn’t have things like “Homecoming,” we wouldn’t have “The Mandalorian,” and we certainly wouldn’t have my favorite Transformers series “Beast Machines.”

Canon shouldn’t be a trap for writers and it shouldn’t be a litmus test for fans digesting it. There are so many better ways to judge a story than whether or not it fits neatly into established lore. A good story is a good story, regardless of whether or not it’s supported by something as static as canon.

“Beast Machines” has its flaws here and there, but canon isn’t one of them, at least not for me. Again, if you feel that the lore is important, that’s fine, you don’t have to ignore it but I would ask you to look beyond what came before when critiquing a new story.

Otherwise, you might miss something special that comes next…

Now then...

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emeraldsiren19 · 4 years ago

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Open letter to Star Wars fandom post-Tros

The insanity of the SW fandom has truly peaked. And people wonder why outsiders don't touch them with a fifty foot pole.

There are not enough expletives (btw 'kriff' doesn't exist in the GFFA but that's a topic for another day) in the English language for the disgrace, mockery, idiocy and so on that has permeated what could be an otherwise great fandom. I have been a SW fan my whole life and will continue to be forever, but there are hills I will die on.

All of this "JJ ruined SW forever and Terrio is a saint, etc!?!" bullshit combined with "oh don't pick on poor Daisy..no one told her anything about her character" makes the folks who regurgitate the drivel appear to have their hostility set in the wrong place. No one can possibly believe what they are preaching to be fact.

Everything is clearly mapped out as it happened and nothing is cryptic. It would smash you into the pavement like a bus for how blatant it is. Obviously people believe what they want but presenting lies as law does no one any favors.

JJ.didn't.write.shit. Repeat it out loud as many times as necessary. Everyone and their dog in Hollywood knows that. How he and Terrio are not blacklisted for their extensive career bombs when anyone else wouldn't get away with it remains a mystery. Everyone knows he stole writing credit from lots of people. That's just from SW without the rest of his 'filmography'. Don't ever him credit for being *anything* other than having sand for brains. If you think he's the fucking mastermind behind anything, he's got you exactly where he wants you, wrapped around his finger. That's how hacks operate. He is responsible for the shit editing job of TROS where the editing crew was threatened with their jobs if it was not done in a certain way under a certain unrealistic time crunch. That is why TROS was so choppy and nonsensical, not taking into consideration Terrio's very explicit hate for anything in the franchise not related to Luke or Rey. He is responsible for forcing Adam Driver to do ADR dialogue in his own fucking closet out of sheer vindication.

There is hypocrisy and disrespect to levels that it's impossible to recover from. DLF went out of its way, above and beyond even, with gaslighting and erasure to destroy the entire franchise in one film. In December, people said they were done with SW because DLF had crushed them and they would never recover but they would still love it.

Funny how that took a spin in the opposite direction since people hate it with a white hot passion. Only SW fandom would choose to not abandon something they hate in favor of unhealthy hatred. 'Fans' directing their anger toward boycotting the entire franchise instead of ignoring the bad film as any other franchise does. It is done with such vocal energy that it has become the popular vote and anyone who doesn't agree with the hate is an outcast. Essentially becoming the angry antis that they claim to hate in the same breath.

And don't even start on the utter bullshit of Rey's parentage. The latest conspiracy theory, advocated by DR herself, would have you believe that she has equal sand for brains and doesn't know shit about her own character, and that Rey Nobody of Jakku was nothing more than Resistance propaganda and never existed. That TFA and TLJ are figments of our imagination and the highly respected Rian Johnson is not only a slave driver but a hack who knows nothing. He knows a hell of a lot more than Terrio and JJ combined. If you seriously believe that Daisy knows nothing about her own character when every other actor knows more than the writers, you're equally conned. Daisy didn't pay attention or didn't care because that meant working, which she bitched about she shouldn't have to do. Like JB, she wants to be seen as the poor abused victim.

When TFA and TLJ were at the forefront, no one had any issues whatsoever with Rey of Jakku being related to no one. Rian even said as much. But he and George Lucas who created the franchise know nothing. Neither does Lawrence Kasdan and his cowriter Michael Arndt. Lucas explicitly said during PT filming that Palpatine had no offspring, and people who aren't even involved in the fandom know that the Dark Side tells you anything you want to hear. Why the bloody fuck anyone with functioning braincells would take anything that TROS claims to be true as gospel fact "because it's onscreen which makes it true".

It fucking cancelled 9 previous films and people choose to accept with open arms the same literal pile of shit they said destroyed them over the 9 films that have almost no flaws by comparison. Cancel out any love, family, fairytales, hope, because a shit for brains writer (Terrio) chose to annihilate them to become the tale of St Luke and the Virgin Rey.

Why? What is the logic or purpose behind the Stockholm Syndrome which DLF initiated that TROS is Gospel Law, everything else is heresy and Rey Nobody never existed?

I can tell you right now without any doubt that Carrie Fisher and Peter Mayhew are both rolling in their graves at the utter hurricane of disrespect and mockery that has swept over the franchise. George Lucas is likely regretting his choice to sell LF to Disney after the atrocity of TROS. Why are people giving the antis/fanboys whom they claim to abhor as much power as they have?

That's not even touching any widely publicized offscreen drama involving the actors. Adam made the wise decision to cut all ties. DR and Reylos were harassed by JB. They probably don't recall boycotting him as a result. Kelly Tran was harassed by fanboys and thrown under the bus by JB and JJ. In addition, neither JB nor DR can find work after their stunts (she trashed Adam and Rian at a full cast press conference for making her actually work during TLJ). Now he's hoping people will conveniently forget what an ass he was to everyone. Interesting how Adam, Kelly, and the rest of the cast are having zero issues finding work.

In a nutshell, Rey may not be my favorite character by a long shot. Kylo deserved better. The Force thought they belonged together. But NO ONE (actor or character) deserved the fucking lazy bullshit copout story that was given to them by hack 'writer' Terrio and 'I can't finish any story' director JJ. Carrie was a script doctor and would have beaten the shit out of Terrio. The extent of her revenge on JJ would be haunting him but he isn't even worth that much effort.

People have forgotten that or they don't care anymore. At which point move on. But that doesn't give someone license to trash an entire fandom with blatant lies out of spite as retribution. Don't create conspiracy theories that experts (the writers of TFA/TLJ and actors) have explicitly said are the opposite.

#tros salt #dont support dlf #shame on everyone buying into gaslighting

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alisinchainmail · 4 years ago

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More from the crossover fanfic no one asked for but everyone's getting...

Kylo + Quinn: The Last Harlequin: Ch. 1.2

[Gif sources: Part 1, Part 2]

Writers' favorite excerpt from Kylo + Quinn Chapter 1.2 of The Last Harlequin:

He exhales sharply through his nose and straightens. "My Knights of Ren detected you in our no fly zone. You didn't respond to our warnings we sent, so we mistook you for a threat."

She rolls her eyes, annoyed at the jab. "I guess I'm going to have to forgive you and your little Space Knights of Ni for not knowing who I am..." She does a flashy roundoff back handspring and flips over him so she's between him and her bat. "Harley Quinn, nice to meet ya." She extends her now uncuffed hand to the dark knight.

Overcompensating with stillness to hide that he's impressed with the stunt from an Earth girl, he looks down his nose at her hand. "Kylo Ren," he says quietly, giving her the decency of a reply.

Harley withdraws her hand, slightly offended he still doesn't seem to have heard of her, "Never heard of me? The Cupid of Crime? The Maiden of Mischief? Princess... of Darkness." She trails off on that last one, unsure if she recently lost that title. "Formerly..." she corrects it quickly.

Kylo plays her game, "Leader of the Knights of Ren, Champion of the First Order, and Apprentice to Supreme Leader Snoke." He takes a step towards her, towering over her. She tilts her head acknowledging she has no idea what any of that really means, either.

"You're not part of the Resistance," he states more than asks. "However, the vehicle you stole has connections to the Rebellion. How?"

Clearly there's a lot of space politics that is not public knowledge on Earth. Why would Bruce Wayne be involved in space wars? He's probably friends with that Elon Muskrat. He's pretty sus with all that Space X shit.

She responds innocently, "Look, I just saw the thing in some local billionaire's driveway, and thought, 'Why not go for a joy ride?'" Kylo steps closer studying her expressions. Harley squints, "What?!"

Kylo shakes his head, "The Empire has no use for you then. We'll decide what to do with you, or what remains of you, when we're done searching the vehicle."

Harley squints at him, gathering a pretty clear psychological profile from that golden threat of a response, his list of self-important titles, and his demeanor. It all screams of daddy issues.

If he wanted to kill her, he would've done it already. Is he her enemy or a potential new ally? How far can she push this guy before she finds out the hard way?

She smirks and fires off, "So...you're building a crown-rule empire because daddy kicked you out. And you think this is a big fuck you, but in actuality it's a very misguided attempt to win back his respect." Kylo grips his helmet, and narrows his eyes at her.

Harley slowly steps back towards her bat, she looks at his mask grinning, "Daddy wanted a son, so now he has to hide behind a mask...I get it!" Kylo slams his helmet down on a sidetable next to him. This was too easy!

Harley continues, "Awh it's ok! I bet your mom still loves you. Mom's usually do... if they have the time to notice you through your desperate attention-seeking behavior." He looks in shock.

She's really hitting a nerve with this guy. How is he so easy to read? "Or maybe you're trying to destroy the very thing that distracted her from you in the first place. Classic only child syndrome. She's part of this rebellion thing isn't she? Gotta love a rebel girl." Kylo lurches at her.

Harley lunges for the bat, but Kylo quickly raises his hand at it, sending it flying across the room. Harley looks at her empty hand, then across the room where it landed. What is he? Some sort of space wizard?

Harley shakes off her confusion, "Won't let me play with your toys? What would I expect from an only child with deep-seated father issues?"

Kylo yells, "Stop...TALKING," as he grabs at Harley. She dodges. Time to go all in.

"Tell me, what did dear old dad do to you? Or was it someone else? Got an uncle who paid some unnecessary visits to your bedside when mommy and daddy were away?"

Kylo clenches his fist and rolls his eyes. That was a hit. Harley taunts, "Awwhhh did I sink your battleship?"

"ENOUGH," he roars, grabbing a handle from his hilt and firing out a massive red flaming greatsword.

Harley stares at the new weapon in disbelief. "Come on! Lazer swords?! At least let me use my dinky baseball bat. I'm Little League compared to that!"

Co-Writer's (Brian) Notes:

I love this as an introduction to their relationship. Harley always has to get the last word in and Kylo is always struggling to keep his composure. Both their characteristics make them butt heads, and also is why they work.

They’re always gonna have a back forth with their personalities. A yin and yang basically where he’ll constantly try and stay level and she’ll try to trip him up.

Writer's (Alisin) Notes:

I like this part of the scene for their chaotic, impulsive energy playing off each other in different ways. Also for her first exposure to the world of Star Wars, which her inexperience with the world helps me get away with the fact I still haven't seen all of the Star Wars franchise yet and am newer to the fandom. We're sort of figuring out the world together.

I wanted them to be fairly evenly matched, which — much like with Rey— is Kylo's first experience with someone on equal ground like that, so it throws him off at first.

Harley is skilled with getting in people's heads from a psychoanalytical standpoint, whereas Kylo uses more of a brute force approach later in the scene. Luke criticized the way the Knights of Ren use the dark side of the force as being unskilled "like a hammer". I bring that characterization into Kylo.

Kylo wields his emotions and fighting style with a lot of intensity rather than precision and agility. In spite of his bloodline making him a more powerful force wielder, he can be quite clumsy with it. As though his power is greater than himself and the conflict he carries disrupts his clarity in his actions, while also fueling the power of the dark side through his raw emotion.

With Harley, I like to keep her dancing in between both, since as a character she is more morally gray.

Her weapons of choice are sometimes literal hammers but her fighting style and wit can be very fluid and agile, similar to the fighting styles of those who utilize the light side of the force. Her actions are impulsive, but not clouded in self-judgements. Without the Joker's influence, she knows herself well enough to have some faith that her impulses are in alignment with her fluid morality.

And to bring it all back ti Brian's point:

Kylo is brute force like Harley’s weapon and she’s skilled and precise like a sword, his weapon. Neither will admit it but both could run into situations where the others methods work better. Harley has been forced to be chaotic in her approach for so long she’s sort of rebelling against it in her style. Kylo has been wielding the force like a hammer for so long that everything looks like a nail. This further adds to their yin and yang relationship dynamic and how they’ll be able to survive by adapting the others' strengths when they need them.

[GIF Source: Part 1, Part 2]

Check out the full chapter on Wattpad: The Last Harlequin. For mature audiences only.

Kylo and Harley's first meeting was originally going to be more simple, but then it just took a life of its own. This whole chapter was originally 4 parts for the Tiktok series, and now it's pushing 16 on Wattpad...and I'm still not done writing it. I have a drug trip scene in the works where they take an intense hallucinogen called Jabbawaska. Yes, this is how ridiculous the Wattpad gets. They're fun characters to write for and it's interesting to see how they bring new characteristics out of each other.

Episodes are currently being posted daily on Tiktok: @KyloQuinnCrossover. Chapter 1 exists in full on YouTube.

Part 1: https://vm.tiktok.com/ZMePNHnKH/

Part 2: https://vm.tiktok.com/ZMePNAJAE/

Part 3: https://vm.tiktok.com/ZMePNGWTx/

Part 4: https://vm.tiktok.com/ZMePNGwEn/

Ch.1.10 WP Promo: https://vm.tiktok.com/ZMePN4pAy/

Ch.1.11 WP Promo: https://vm.tiktok.com/ZMePNPmUS/

Ch.1.12 WP Promo: https://vm.tiktok.com/ZMePNsnY7/

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writingstruggles · 4 years ago

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Ben Solo/Kylo Ren: a character analysis

OK, first things first: THIS ISN’T A STAN OR ANTI POST. This is a character study, and if you can’t handle this character getting impartial concrit, just don’t read. If, however, you don’t agree with some of the points I’m going to make and want to have a healthy discussion about it, then I’m all ears. I don’t think my opinion is the only valid one, so feel free to try and change my mind.

And second things second: I tried so hard to love the sequel trilogy, but when it became clear after TROS that the studio had no plan other than making money, it became very difficult. I’m aware that the main problem for all the characters is the lack of general planing in this whole mess of trilogy, so keep this always in mind while reading this post: the first problem of this character was that the studio didn’t even know what to do with him.

1. Does Ben Solo becoming Kylo Ren make sense?

I checked the comics to get his background better. He had a happy childhood traveling a lot with Han and Leia, but when she discovered about the First Order, she sent him to train with Luke while Han and Chewie ran undercover missions for her. This is important: up to this point, he had a good relationship with his family, even if he was already being pulled by the dark side of the Force. It was during his adolescence that he started to be really seduced by Snoke, hearing the voice he thought belonged to Darth Vader. After the Luke incident, he did explode the cabin and thought he had killed his uncle, but he was not the one who killed all the other students and destroyed the temple: that was Snoke’s thing. He did kill some of his fellow Jedi apprentices later on, though. So, his turning points were Luke’s treason and Snoke’s coordinated abduction. And I would like to point out: the Sith training involves torture and brainwashing, so the first wrong impression I would like to correct about this character is that he was not simply a dick and revolted teen who ran away to join a cult.

BUT, there are some huge problems here. The first one is that when you watch the movies, you don’t learn anything about that aside from Luke’s part. In the way he’s presented in TFA, he’s Leia and Han’s son who betrayed his family, destroyed his uncles’ dream and joined the dark side for no reason. OF COURSE half of the audience wouldn’t like him. That wouldn’t be a problem if they just wanted him to be a villain like Darth Vader was, but it’s very clear that there was a plan (at least for one director) to make him a supposedly redeemable character. And how can we sympathize with his character like that? Even after we get to know what Luke almost did, the next question is simple: ok, so why he didn’t go back to Han and Leia?

And here is the second huge problem: we learned that after Ben leaves Yavin IV, Luke vanished, and Han and Leia broke up and went back to smuggling/leading a rebellion. And I can’t stress this enough, this doesn’t make any sense. The sequel trilogy killed Luke, Han, and Leia’s characters. These three characters that we have known for years would never, ever, had abandoned Ben Solo. Leia F*cking Organa and Han shot-first Solo would have brought their son back or die trying. Luke Skywalker is not a coward, he wouldn’t go into hiding and abandoned his only sister to clean up his mess during another war, let alone close himself to the Force, knowing full well he wouldn’t be able to feel if she was in danger. Just remember Han risking his life to save Luke in Hoth; or Leia leaving the rebellion to rescue Han from Jabba; or Luke straight-up disobeying ghost Obi-Wan and ghost Yoda to save Han and Leia, even if that costed the war. They were older and different, for sure, but we are talking about the quintessential things, the things that make these beloved characters themselves.

(THIS ^^. This right here is the spirit of Star Wars)

So no, in the way it was done in the movies, Ben Solo becoming Kylo Ren doesn’t make sense to the audience, and that’s a huge problem. A friend of mine suggested once that instead of being a rip-off of ANH, TFA should have been a movie about the beginning of the First Order (because after we defeat the Empire on episode VI, episode VII starting with ANOTHER all-powerful evil government already dominating the galaxy and exploding planets just throws away all the previous movies’ efforts) and about how Ben Solo becomes Kylo Ren. Just imagine if Rey, Finn and Poe had interacted with Ben Solo before he becomes evil: the stakes would have been so much higher, and it could have been well done. It would have made this character more human and likable.

2. Kylo Ren’s motivations: what does he want?

If the OT was about hope, I think we can agree that the ST’s themes are legacy and belonging. Having their protagonists, Rey and Ben/Kylo representing two apposite sides of those things was one of the best ideas for the new saga. Rey looks for belonging in the past she doesn’t know, while Kylo wants to abandon Ben Solo’s past and find his place in his future as Kylo Ren.

In that sense, his character arc was somehow solid. In TFA, it’s clear he’s still struggling with the dark side and feels the temptation of the light: he loses control easily, and he’s not doing anything unless Snoke orders him to. Ok, but why? Why is he clinging to Darth Vader’s ideals and staying in the sith path? Basically because he thinks it’s too late, and he has no other options. Which brings us back to the problem with Han and Leia: his parents didn’t go after him, they chose to go back to their old lives – of course he would think there’s no going back for him now. “But he is an adult man and could make his own decisions.” It’s a fair point, but again: sith training corrupts you and even if he had escaped, the only thing that would happen would be Snoke finding him again. It’s kinda like leaving an addiction: you supposedly can do it by yourself, but it is so much easier if you have help. Not a simple promise or offer, but actual, constant, and present help. I can not stress this enough, but I insist that one of the main problems with the sequel trilogy was not explaining in a satisfactory way HOW and WHY he turned to the dark side and stayed there.

3. Han Solo

Okay, I will admit: maybe my opinion on this specific topic is biased, because Han Solo is my favorite SW character. You may call me out as a fangirl if you don’t agree, but my point is: making Kylo Ren kill Han Solo was a bad idea. They basically killed the character for half of the audience, with zero chance of redemption.

It’s because it’s fratricide. Unless your father is Satan, the Emperor, or someone as equally villainous, fratricide is just that bad. It’s not easy to redeem a character who commits murder, but one that kills his own father? Who happens to be one of the good guys? And one of the most iconic and beloved characters in the franchise? There were other options to give Kylo Ren a tipping point, a conflicted moment that didn’t involve killing Han Solo. But they did, and he killed him. And now he’s no longer a villain we can sympathize with: now we think he’s a monster.

4. His interactions with Rey in TLJ

(I’m not wearing shipper goggles for this. I don’t even own shipper goggles when we are talking about Star Wars.)

Kylo Ren is conflicted after killing Han Solo, (and I will make a small pause here to reinforce how good Adam Driver’s acting was. He’s the only responsible for all the likable parts of Kylo Ren, especially in this movie). Kylo is once again unstable and Snoke is displeased with him, and for a moment we think he finally turned completely to the dark side, until he pauses before shooting Leia’s ship.

The force bond was the most interesting part of the movie. I don’t agree that he used it to manipulate Rey: if anything, he was completely harsh and blunt and kind of a dick to her, but he didn’t lie. He told her things how he saw it, with so much conviction that she started to see his side of the story. And since she was probably the first person in years that actually listened to him, his decision of murdering Snoke and inviting her to join the dark side makes very much sense.

We are talking about motivations and his are simple: let the past die, forge a new path. When he kills Snoke and no longer has a master, he only has one option: to become the master. That’s why he takes over the FO, and wants Rey to be his apprentice. Does the character suffer from sith-tunnel-vision? Definitely. But it makes sense. His decision-making is not overly complicated: he feels alone, and he wants a purpose: he decides that the solution for both is Rey joining him in the dark side. When she refuses, he still has one purpose: the FO.

This is, however, the point where he turns his back to the light completely: on Crait, he orders the FO to explode the Rebel Base and kill everyone, knowing full well his mother was in there. He orders them to exploded the Falcon out of the sky, once again knowing that Chewie and Rey are on board. When facing Luke, he repeats that he will kill Rey and the rebels. His transition from conflicted sith apprentice to the new villain of the franchise was actually well done.

And exactly because of that, the next topic pisses me off so much.

5. The continuity problem between episodes VIII and IX

Introducing Palpatine here was bad for so many reasons: backtracking Rey’s arc, making us think about Palps’ sex life, insisting on beating a literal dead horse when there were new things to explore, etc etc. And it was also bad for Kylo Ren’ arc. As I said before, the way they finished episode VIII, everything pointed to Kylo becoming the final evil Rey would have to face, and that would have been awesome. We didn’t need Palps, or ANOTHER all-powerful evil army ready to conquer the galaxy with exploding-planets-tech (seriously, is Alderaan a joke to you, Disn*y?).

But, in the third movie, they went back and decided they didn’t want Kylo Ren to be the ultimate villain anymore. They wanted him to be redeemed. And that’s not bad per se, but an actual redemption arc needs to be planned, and I think we can all agree, there was no planning in the sequels. And again, FRATRICIDE. So they introduced an old, more powerful evil to make Kylo Ren less evil and less of a threat in comparison. And evil so definitive, and with such a bullshit connection to Rey, that it makes Kylo reconsider his previous promises of killing the last jedi and going back to the plan of making her turn.

And so, his character spends the movie going after Rey, to tell her the bullshit truth about her parents, to convince her to join him. At least his arc is still somehow solid, because once he’s decided on his path, he doesn’t lose control like in the previous movies, and his body language is more firm and lethal. Which, honestly, thanks Adam Driver, he knew the character way better than the director at this point.

He finally comes back to the light when Leia dies. Although it was rushed, I agree that, at that point, it was literally the only thing that could have made him turn. Rey reminding him that he wouldn’t be alone if he hadn’t chosen the dark side helped, too. It was clear that the moment with Han Solo was supposed to be with Leia, but I’m really glad Harrison Ford agreed to come back to fill in the role for his old friend.

6. Ben Solo

Okay, there’s so much to unpack here. When Ben Solo finally comes out to play, it’s very good. We can finally see some things that explain Kylo Ren better – it’s so obvious how awkward he was in his own body trying to be an evil sith lord when he is clearly a natural disaster. He still suffers from tunnel vision, but at least now it’s Skywalker-do-or-die tunnel vision. It’s like a weight was lifted from his shoulders, and the way his actions scream Han Solo makes me, once again, wish the first movie had been about him, and not the whole “find a map/ Star Killer base was ANOTHER ridiculous idea / I know R2’s alignment is chaotic bastard but COME ON”.

Star Wars has a notorious story with pulling Force powers out of nowhere, and I’m not going to pretend to be an expert in SW lore, so I won’t complain about the dyad thing (and the weird stuff with the light sabers). I honestly liked the concept. There’s a lot I have to say about the final battle against Palpatine, but I think it would fit better in a future character study about Rey (God, that’s going to be another long ass post). I just want to add that after Luke insisted on her taking both light sabers to Exegol, and after all the crazy stuff Ben did to get to her, they should have, you know, actually fought side by side against 85% dead Palpatine? Aren’t these two idiots supposed to be stronger than that?? I’m not complaining about Rey bringing him down “alone” since she is the protagonist yada yada, I just wished that Ben had done something, instead of being thrown into a hole.

(Palps did that out of spite because of his grandfather? I bet he did.)

I won’t say I didn’t cry hearing the voices of the past jedi talking to Rey, because I definitely did. If anything, it was great to see so many beloved actors getting a chance to honor such iconic characters. But are you freaking shitting on us? Where were ANY of those assholes when Luke, Leia and Ben needed them, like, ten years ago?? “Well, force ghosts should not be used as ex machinas, and they don’t see the future” Tell that to episodes IV, V and VI. Anakin, Obi Wan and Yoda can show up for Vader weird funeral/party with ewoks but they can’t send a jedi signal for the Skywalkers to warn them about Sith bullshit about to happen? “They were probably ahead in the world the comes next and they didn’t have a way to come back, they just talked to Rey because Exegol is a Force nexus and-” And so is Ach-To. And so is Yavin IV. And so is Dagoba (Yes, Snoke sent Ben there for training). Look, I have no problems with Force Ghosts, I love them bastards. I’m just so freaking mad with the lack of coherence in this trilogy. If they did not talk to the Skywalkers – and I’m sure at least Luke and Ben asked Obi Wan/Anakin to show themselves A LOT – they should not have talked to Rey. It was a crowd please moment, for sure, but it was another gigantic middle finger to Ben Solo (before he becomes Kylo Ren).

And then Rey died, and Ben brings her back. I know how many funny jokes are going around in the fandom about how resurrecting Qui-Gon or Padme would have saved the galaxy so much trouble, but again, I’m okay with that. It was previously established that since they were a dyad, they had this living Force between them (although it was rushed in the final like everything else). And it does make sense Ben doing that: he had just come back to the light, and his parents were both dead. Han and Leia were gone because of him, the last time he saw Chewie was as his captor, and before that, he got shot by him, etc, you get the idea. He had nothing else, only this: the chance to make it right by a person that genuinely cared for him. Exchanging his life for Rey’s was nothing: he knew that his family would be waiting for him in the world that comes after.

So, did I like the Bendemption? It. Was. Not. A. Redemption. It was the right choice, and it made things right between him and Rey, because she forgave him for everything. But that’s it. He did not face the consequence of any of his previous actions. “But he died for her!” And we just established that it was not a difficult choice, considering that he had literally no reasons to stay alive if Rey was dead. If you want to see an actual redemption arc, go watch Avatar the Legend of Aang.

And finally, the kiss and the death. Okay, I know I’m digging my own grave by addressing that, but my mama raised no coward. Here it goes: it was fan service, pure and simple. It’s there to make part of the fanbase happy. Good for you, reylos, but to us, not shippers, it came out of nowhere. And I’m not questioning if they had feelings for each other or not: I’m talking about pacing and characterization. I’m not 100% convinced that Rey, as a character, as she was presented to us so far, would have done that. It felt out of place, and it broke the immersion of the scene. I was emotionally invested on what was going on, I was happy to see Ben smiling at her and everything, but then suddenly they were sucking faces and the “FAN SERVICE” alarm was so loud in my mind that I immediately lost interest. If they wanted that in the movie so much, there was probably a better way to do that.

It makes sense that Ben had to die to bring Rey back: one life for another and everything. I still think that, story-wise, it would have been better if none of them had died a ridiculous death, and Ben had faced the consequences of his actions as Kylo Ren, but okay, moving on. The main problem here is what happens after he dies: nothing. Absolute-effing-nothing. He dies, he disappears – which, again, I won’t question because Leia was involved and Skywalkers do whatever they want with the Force and I’m no expert – but that’s it. Rey, the same Rey that had just jumped his bones fifteen seconds earlier, doesn’t even mourn him. She doesn’t cry, she doesn’t do anything for him in the end, she just goes to Tattooine because it makes sense to the Skywalker saga to end where it started. She sees more of those Force Ghosts who never appear when they freaking should and that’s it.

Why is it bad? Well, first, like it or not, Ben Solo/Kylo Ren was one of the main characters and he deserved an actual final. Finn and Poe too, but those are long posts for another day. And second, it makes the fan-service in that kiss scene more evident. You can’t have the girl kiss him and in the next scene act like it didn’t matter at all. “Ok, then it was a thank-you kiss and there were no real feelings of loved involved”. But that makes it worse, it would be even more completely out of character for Rey – who avoids physical contact with people on the regular – to just kiss someone as a thank-you. Do you see how the math does not compute? If she had feelings for him, and therefore kissed him, she should have mourned him. If anything, she should at least miss her other part of the dyad thing. And if she didn’t mourn him because she didn’t have actual feelings, then she should not have kissed him. A little consistency, it’s all I’m asking.

7. Conclusions (aka tl;dr)

He was a somehow consistent character, but the lack of plot for the sequels was a huge problem. If the trilogy had been about Ben Solo becomes Kylo Ren – Kylo Ren kills Snoke and becomes the real villain – Rey faces Kylo Ren and she either saves him or kills him, it would have been so much better than the mess the studio did.

His story in the comics is so much more complex than what it is shown in the movies, but what they did to Han, Leia and Luke was a crime.

It was clear that one director had a vision to give him a redemption, and the other to make him the ultimate villain.

Adam Driver did what he could to make this character solid and somehow likable, let’s thank him for that.

There was no reason to bring Palps back,

Rey’s actions in the final are contradictory,

He should have stayed alive to face the consequences of his actions,

and the studio is charged guilt for getting our hopes up just to crush them with their lack of interest in doing something descent for the fans.

But again, that’s just my analysis of this character. Feel free to disagree with me, I would love to see what other people think about Ben Solo/Kylo Ren.

#character study #ben solo #kylo ren #star wars the sequel trilogy #adam driver #bendemption #star wars #long post #I got mad halfway and you can tell #rey #han solo #I blame the studio #mostly

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nicknellie · 4 years ago

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For sure, as I (believe) mentioned before music is Luke’s way of showing that he cares (Julie with bright ect) so it would make the most sense for him to be the only one who sings it to Alex.

Oh no, I was thinking that however I’m just now picturing it in my head like the last verse is just Luke because the other boys are crying so hard and Luke is as well but he needs to finish the song because Alex has to know.

Precisely, although the band wouldn’t be the same without one of them (they literally changed band names when they added Julie) it’s hard for any of them to think that they matter as much as they do.

Yes, I think that as well although Luke never intends for it to happen he is usually either the reason why fight starts are involved in them. Mostly due to the fact that as you said he is headstrong, and while I do think that he open minded sometimes with his opinions it takes longer for him to consider the other side (Him telling Julie that she needs to get back into the music program ect).

Although with Willie for Alex we see him sometimes being able to stand up for himself I feel like when it comes to his bandmates he sometimes may not have that back bone mostly because in the back of his head he’s afraid that they will kick him out. (Not that they really did anything that Alex needs to call them out for however just in general)

Depending on which fic you’re talking about I might have read it as well, but I’ve seen theories/stories about that as well.

Honestly I keep thinking that the boys met each other rather young however I completely agree, for a few years Bobby just didn’t have a lot of friends

Sadness, I’ve also saw a comment somewhere in which someone mentioned that for the boys stuff to be in the garage it was Bobby who probably put it there and that’s upsetting. (Poor Bobby)

Just randomly he sees one of Alex’s jigsaws and their random hobbies and he burst into more tears (could possibly be were he thinks that using the songs would be a good thing)

I can just see Reggie trying to lure Alex into a wild goose case just because he’s trying to get him confused (Alex is more so concerned but just moves on) Yes, that exactly how Bobby and Luke react. Also they can’t really lie to Alex so they won’t make eye contact with him, which is how Alex is able to tell that Bobby isn’t truthful.

Exactly, that’s what I was thinking as well! Bobby looks calm however he’s able to deck someone if needed, honestly after a while people just know not to mess with him however Luke still comes as a surprise because he acts like a puppy.

Wait yes!! Reggie learned art from his grandad (also partly where his love of country music comes from but none of the boys know why he started writing country music) (Luke always tries to get him to stop writing them however whenever Reggie is feeling sad they tend to play his grandads favorite country song which is the only one that Luke will accept)

Wait yes!! I was thinking the exact same thing, I could just see him taking a picture and then painting it. Reggie just makes paintings of all of them but as Luke is the most photogenic a majority of them is of him.

Yes, comfort music and poetry (also comfort baking especially for Reggie because Alex can’t say no to Reggie even though he once requested a Han Solo cake)

Precisely! For a bit of time the boys would be concerned just because they associated Alex baking with him being stressed (even if Alex says it’s nothing if they wake up and the garage smells like someone has been baking they know). I actually remember reading this fic that basically had Alex make cookies and then give them to a random stranger (Willie) and your idea kind of reminded me of that. But yes, and Alex is such a god baker that although the boys need him to go to sleep immediately they don’t protest to the immense amount of baked goods.

Completely, Reggie doesn’t seem tired however he is so active that the boys just know. (Possibly could’ve been when he thought that fixing his amp in the rain was a good idea).

Oh wait yes, and there’s no in between either just those two and Alex is always prepared.

If Trevor and Mitch were close then it definitely would’ve been easier for Trevor to help him make the charity. (It took Emily and Mitch a bit of time to recognize where they knew Trevor from because unlike the boys they weren’t able to pinpoint him immediately)

They definitely saw the boys as their sons, (depending on the time line) when Alex ran away he went to them first and Emily was one of the first adults (soon after Bobby) who Alex came out to.

Honestly I was thinking that for a bit of time Trevor wouldn’t announce who he was however I think your theory makes a lot more sense and I prefer it. Also I do feel like they could’ve been neglectful but Sunset Curve found a family within each other so it wasn’t as bad as it could’ve been that they didn’t have the best parents.

It’s the only logical explanation that she’s Julie’s mom and if she isn’t then there has to be a reason for her character outside of a worker you know. (I’ve seen some theories where they say that Caleb is behind their murder so if that’s the direction that they take and if she’s supposed to be like a spy for his club I will rage)

Yes, basically everyone thanks Rose because she is amazing.

Honestly I have quite a bit that I expect from season two but I just really hope that they touch upon those story lines also developed and spend more time on their characters (Flynn and Willie deserved better). I’d love flashbacks like that as well, and going along with your theory kind of like in unsaid Emily as the song is continuing and all the sudden we get like a flashback scene (how they did it) that’s what they should do, if the boys sit down and tell Julie about their past.

He is such a family man, honestly if anything I just don’t really feel like they developed Trevor enough to tell what he is like as a parent however I just don’t see him as someone who doesn’t care because he had quite a few examples of not so great parents growing up, (not being supportive, neglectful, not accepting their kid and fighting in front of them jus to name a few) that he never wanted to be like them.

So I’ve been thinking about this for a bit so I’ll bring it out now, in stand tall when Carrie makes a comment before the show we see his face kind of scrunch up and I feel like season two could have a scene where he talks to her about her behavior and could possibly be how they do her redemption arc (?). Because he loves her so much, and although he may not be the best at showing it (now that he lost the boys it’s been hard for him to get close to people even his own daughter due to the fact that he’s afraid of losing them)

Exactly, it feels like they don’t care about the fact that they died. For some people it does take longer to react to things end it could just be that they’re still processing it however we get no insight to the fact that they’re even mildly thinking about it. I do think part of it is that although even has changed they still have each other and therefore they can try to get through everything that they possibly could.

Alex is such a sweetheart, and that’s exactly what he would do because he genuinely enjoyed helping people also the fact that Bobby means so much to him just made him feel like he was on cloud nine.

That’s exactly the song, The boys are so concerned and Alex and Luke at one point turns to Julie and is like that’s why I didn’t want him to know about Jar-Jar, I can’t believe he’s done this again (occasionally Reggie brings out heavy metal and no one knows why)

(So I’ve never seen Star Wars either, honestly I just said that character because he is adorable)

Julie is just concerned about them in general however during this moment she’s just so confused (I feel like Carlos is a huge Star Wars fan, part of why Reggie likes him so much so due to that fact she’s also a fan) however they spend the next 20 ish minutes talking about how much the franchise has changed ect.

It would totally be their thing, and although Alex isn’t into photography as much as Reggie is, they both just love the experience and spending time together. Also they loved having Luke and Bobby there as well, surprisingly Bobby knows a lot about photography as well or at least the developing stages so if the boys are there then Reggie and Bobby usually take over doing the developing and Luke and Alex just watch.

Yes, this is how Reggie gets into lots of scrapbooking conversations (also randomly gets stickers from people) for the fact that he’s so well known for how much he loves scrapbooking.

That’s exactly how the shoot for the deme photo went. One of the photos has Reggie out of place and the boys in movement and since Reggie thought it was the last one he almost burst out into tears (they quickly discovered that there was another picture which became the cover).

Yes, Reggie just keeps giving Julie scrapbooks of Luke. (Reggie is the embarrassing mom friend that would pull out baby pictures just to spite someone)

Instagram account- yes, and his followers are sometimes confused as to how he could possibly get those pictures without being seen but they just accept it as Reggie being Reggie. For sure, Flynn and Reggie would be the best friendship duo and the photos are insane. (Luke is photogenic but Flynn is a whole level because she will gladly do a 2 hour photo shoot)

Luke would definitely let Reggie have the wrappers, and that’s precisely what Alex‘s reaction would be.

That’s what I was thinking as well, he’s just so shaky and the writing is so blurry to him because he has so many tears in his eyes and eventually he just can’t look at it anymore (that’s why the photos are not in the scrapbook but just placed inside because although he knew how much it would mean to Reggie, Bobby didn’t have the strength to make a new page)

Yes Luke would definitely wrap the gifts in tinfoil (‘I have more class than that Luke’ ‘Reggie, you wrap your gifts with newspaper’)

Everyone just takes Alex’s hoodies, even Julie.

You described that beautifully that is exactly what their relationship is.

The hoodies are essential during movie nights because Luke and Reggie have enough room to pull the hoodies over their face so they don’t have to see what’s on screen. Over time Alex isn’t scared by them however (despite seeing the film like four times) Luke let out a gigantic scream once at a film and it terrified Alex. Ah I love that you included Willie (who is the king of stealing hoodies much to Alex’s sadness) and that is exactly what would happen.

Yes, and Alex takes his job as a choreographer very seriously (honestly it’s just for entertainment because Alex is very amused) The picture that Owen posted somewhere buried in the scrapbooks there is a similar one of sunset curve in similar costumes that Luke has tried to get Reggie to burn. Also although Luke is not interested he is the best dancer and it’s very normal thing to walk into the garage and see them waltzing with each other.

I love the way that you said this and I completely agree, it’s one way that Alex and Julie bond (also she finds that picture of Luke and Alex waltzing and she forces him to teach her how to waltz)

Honestly at one point I was going to say I love how all of this started because of a jigsaw.

I’m sorry this took me so long to get to but as I predicted I’ve been writing my response for a whole hour and I’m hoping it’s worth it 😂 oh god I loved literally all of this, more under keep reading :)))

Ok so originally I started bullet pointing everything and I planned to put it all into a big thing like I did before, then I accidentally started putting more detail into the bullet points and just stuck with it 😂 the first few aren’t as detailed but it gets better the longer it goes on. That’s also why they’re all numbered lmao

1. Luke’s voice breaking as he holds the last note at the end of the song and him desperately trying to make it all the way without crying so Alex can see how much he cares

2. All of them knowing they’re like family but also constantly feeling like they’re stepping on eggshells because they’re so used to making mistakes within their own homes that they think it’ll be just as easy with all their friends

3. Interesting that you mentioned the music program - implies he always thinks that his ideas aren’t necessarily the best but they’re for the best and he struggled to change his mind to see other sides of the argument which is where the fighting started

4. Alex was usually the mediator because whenever there was a problem he would lay the facts out in his mind and sort through all outcomes to the best possible solution that would hopefully please everyone - generally everyone agreed after Alex intervened and it was rare he was involved in arguments himself

5. Totally right about Alex not standing up for himself (see “And you can’t make us either! ...Sir” to Caleb) and that’s why he was hardly ever involved; when he did argue he could actually get kind of nasty which made him feel awful

6. Yeah same I think he just seemed like a bit of a loner and let’s be real kind of intimidating despite his chill personality and the guys were the first to break down his walls

7. I’ve seen stuff like that - like it was probably him who had to identify the bodies and take their stuff back and that’s a horrible weight for a 17-y-o to bare and it makes me wonder how people can dislike Bobby based on actions and choices he made when he was grieving for his family

8. Omg he goes through each of their bags after he’s taken them back to the studio that night (not Luke’s bc Mitch and Emily have it) and he finds the tiny easy jigsaw Alex uses before shows and a half completed crossword book in Reggie’s stuff

9. Also!! Reggie does sudokus too! I kept forgetting what they were called and wanting to add them in, but sudokus!! He loves them

10. Yes lmao Reggie starts off with a really confusing lie that makes Alex asks more questions - it once ended up with the completely false story that Reggie was planning to climb Mount Everest and they weren’t telling Alex because he was afraid of heights

11. I love thinking that the boys just can’t lie to each other because we see in the show they can’t lie (high-pitched ummmm and “we were looking for the kitchen...?”) so tiny things like that are perfect I’m so in agreement

12. Exactly yes!!!! Luke is friends with everyone he speaks to until they say something that rubs him the wrong way and he just kind of explodes (unless it’s someone he’s close to)

13. YES OMG I didn’t even think of that being where Reggie’s love of country music came from but YES omg totally

14. Because I love Johnny Cash I’m claiming Reggie’s favourite country song as Ring of Fire because it’s quite upbeat and I can see him and his grandad jamming out to it in the old days - other favourites were I Walk The Line and A Boy Named Sue

15. I feel like Reggie’s art style would swing between very realistic like when he paints the boys and also kind of similar to Booboo Stewart’s art

16. Alex tried his hardest to deliver with the Han Solo cake and it definitely could have turned out worse! Reggie helped decorate because he couldn’t wait until it was finished to see the result

17. Yes omg like the boys trying to say like “you good buddy?” through huge mouthfuls of cake and the whole effect of concern being lost - Alex eventually starts baking even when he’s fine so it’s harder to tell when he’s stressed, but baking always cheers him up so they don’t mind

18. That fic sounds really sweet omg 🥺

19. Absolutely omg! It’s like the middle of the night, full-on storm outside, and Reggie just thinks “oh yeah I gotta fix my amp, no time like the present” and it didn’t go well obviously

20. Yes and now you’ve said that I kinda feel like Emily was the second person he told who took it well? Like Bobby was first, then his parents reacted badly, and then he went to Luke’s house - Emily asked if he wanted to see Luke but he kind of broke down and asked if he could talk to her instead

21. He told her everything and she was incredibly supportive - because for a while Alex wanted to keep things on the down-low Luke didn’t even know he stayed at his house that night

22. Yeah I just need more found-family 90s Sunset Curve moments along with the found-family present day Julie and the Phantoms moments 🥺

23. idk if you saw but the book confirmed that Rose is her mother!!!! It’s officially canon!!! So no worries about her being a spy for Caleb, I think Rose is way too nice for that (oops sorry if you’re avoiding book spoilers 😬)

24. Omg louder for the people in the back Flynn and Willie deserved better!!! They deserved so much more screen time, Flynn deserves her own storyline (personally I’m rooting for her to be the first to reconnect with Carrie and I’m a hardcore Flarrie shipper so that would be cool, but I’d settle for them just being friends again) and I’d love to see Willie dealing with the emotional baggage and realisations that come after Caleb’s stamp gets lifted

25. Exactly!! This!! He loves his family so much, probably blames himself a little for the boys’ death (for not going with them, even though there was nothing he could have done, or for encouraging them to go) and he doesn’t want to lose his family!

26. Omg I’ve never considered that but I love it! I want more Trevor and Carrie moments in general and him showing some good parenting by helping her be better would be totally perfect yesssss

27. Yeah I get that, like the main thing is that they have each other and as long as they have that they’ll be fine - although like you said because it takes some people longer to process it I’d love to see either Luke or Reggie start thinking about it when they realise that Julie and the others are growing up but they’ll be 17 forever

28. Ajakkffjsl YES Reggie just randomly writing heavy metal songs, either about something he hates or just. Totally for no reason other than he likes the freedom of screaming (but he doesn’t like listening to it as he doesn’t like shouting)

29. That’s Gizmo??? Omg yes oh my Lord idk what that thing is but I would die for it and so would Reggie

30. Carlos and Reggie having lightsaber fights. That’s it. All Carlos can see is a floating lightsaber but they both have the time of their lives/afterlives

31. Omg what if Bobby learnt about the developing thing bc as we’ve established Reggie is not that careful but Bobby is very gentle and it’s something you need to be gentle for so he learns it just to help Reggie

32. For most famous bands or whatever they get asked for autographs or whatever but not Reggie - he gets given stickers and people ask to take photos, then make him keep the photos and ask them to put them in his scrapbook; even though Sunset Curve were still relatively small he had a whole album dedicated to photos with fans

33. Lmao yeah they just couldn’t time it right and thankfully got the photo on the very last try - Reggie literally cried with happiness

34. Yes!! This!! Oh my god!! Whenever Luke is being particularly annoying Reggie just calls Julie over and sits her down with a photo album - the best ones are the photos of Luke stuck in weird places (idk I feel like he’d do stupid things and get stuck a lot. He once got his head stuck in a train door and instead of helping the boys just laughed at him. That happened to me one time which is why I thought of it)

35. Hell yeah Reggie’s photography account blows up, especially when Flynn starts managing it. And those two hour shoots are almost always her idea - she’ll just show up at the studio with a bunch of outfits and shout to the air “Reggie get your camera ready!”

36. Omg don’t do that to meeeee 😭 he couldn’t make himself flip through the pages and stick the photos in because he didn’t want to relive all the memories that had suddenly turned painful 😭 so he just carefully slips the photos inside and never looks at them again

37. Julie in Alex’s hoodie is possibly the greatest mental image I’ve ever had - he can’t find it, and usually it’s Luke or Reggie, and nowadays Willie tends to take it too, so Alex marches into the studio and asks which one of them has it, at which point he sees Julie huddled up in it for warmth and he just melts because she’s freaking adorable and he can’t believe how lucky he is to have her as a best friend

38. Lmaooo Reggie and Luke hiding under the hoodies is PERFECT and yes Luke is such a scaredy-cat no matter how tough he tries to act

39. Alex looks forwards to their dance sessions every time lmao and YES he got them all matching costumes and Luke despises the photos

40. Sunset Curve (and later Julie and the Phantoms) dancing with each other was not something I knew I needed in my life but I’m so glad you said it because YES

41. Kinda considering buying a custom JatP jigsaw from somewhere because now I feel like I deserve one

#no thoughts just Julie in Alex’s hoodie #that is all I need and want in my life oh my GOD #williexmercer #asks #emily answers

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sw-daydreamer · 5 years ago

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More fan reactions!

SOURCE: tvsourcemagazine.com/2019/12/the-rise-of-skywalker-roundtable/

First Impressions of the movie?

Cam: Honestly, the first thought that kept repeating in my head as I continued watching the movie was “Who greenlight this?”. Too many hours spent on pointless plot points, bad dialogue, character regression and a clear intent to take digs at the previous movie.

April: The first time I saw the film I found it largely enjoyable. It reminded me of “old school” Star Wars films, which fits with J.J.’s nerdy love for the original films. However, there were glaring issues, largely that, in an effort to make every fan group happy, J.J. created a film where every fan group instead found something to nitpick. He bent to the will of the racist fans from “The Last Jedi” and shrunk Kelly Marie Tran’s role to nothing, he created women out of thin air (Jannah and Zorrie) to stand as helpmates to the men around them, just to name a few things. But as an end to Luke Skywalker’s story, it’s acceptable.

Anika: Thanks to spoilers, which I actively sought, I already knew what to expect. While I didn’t hate the movie in it’s entirety, my dissatisfaction with it made it the only Star Wars movie that I am quite happy seeing just once. So much of it just felt cobbled together and didn’t make any sense. It felt like the writers were trying to please every Star Wars fan base with this film, but never quite managed that feat.

Logan: As the credits rolled I thought, “Well, I enjoyed a majority of that movie until the end.” Originally, I said I enjoyed about 80% of the movie but the 20% I didn’t like were huge plot points. After thinking about the movie for a week, I’d say my percentage of enjoyment has majorly decreased.

Maggie: Unfortunately, I was entirely spoiled by Reddit and Burger King by the time I sat down to watch The Rise of Skywalker opening night. I mostly felt dread throughout the entire film and struggled to even enjoy the enjoyable moments. I think “fever dream” is the best way to summarize my first impressions.

Jenna: Like most people, I was spoiled by Reddit leaks that none of us could have ever anticipated being true. Sadly, they were. Although I knew what was going to happen, I still tried to go in with an open mind. While I did enjoy some of the movie, those feelings were unfortunately overshadowed by my intense dislike of the major plot holes and the poor messages this movie conveyed.

Heather: My first impressions were from Reddit Spoilers months ago because I am a known Spoiler Whore (I don’t like surprises) so if we’re going from the leaks my first impression was, “There’s no way this is true. It’s so stupid. Most of this doesn’t even make sense. Nah. I’ll wait for the LA premiere and the real leaks.” Little did I know.

When did you become a fan of Star Wars?

Cam: I have first watched Star Wars when in 1999 (Phantom Menace), then I watched the rest of them in 2015. But I only became a fan on 2017 when I watched The Last Jedi.

April: I was introduced to Star Wars when I was 7 years old. My cousin, 10 years my senior, had been tasked with babysitting me for the night and, in her desire to keep me quiet and happy she did what most teens would and plopped me in front of a VHS tape playing ‘A New Hope’. Within moments of R2-D2 and C3PO showing up on the screen I was enthralled.

Anika: I was 11 years old when I first saw Star Wars. The story of Luke, Princess Leia, Han Solo and a galaxy far, far away was an immediate obsession for science-fiction/fantasy nerd girl me. A New Hope is my favorite childhood movie and the saga, along with Rogue One and Solo, continues to be my obsession. I cried when I saw the first trailer for TROS because the movies were a big part of my childhood and teen years and knowing this would be the last story ever told about the Skywalkers was an extremely emotional moment for me.

Logan: The better question is when wasn’t I a fan of Star Wars. I grew up with a brother who is 10 years older than me and he was small during the theatrical release of Empire and Return of the Jedi. I grew up watching them because he watched them and I immediately wanted to be a part of that world.

Maggie: My father took me to see The Phantom Menace opening weekend when I was six years old. Despite the devastation of losing Qui-Gon Jinn, Star Wars basically overtook my life from that moment forward. For twenty years I’ve collected Star Wars ephemera and read through nearly the entire library of the Extended Universe.

Jenna: When I was around 10 or 11, the first six episodes were playing on TV for about a week. I saw my step dad watching one of them and I was captivated by it as soon as I walked by. I asked him what order I should watch them in, and then I could be found that whole week in front of the TV watching them every time they came on. After that, I didn’t watch them for a long time, but my love for the franchise returned when The Last Jedi was in theaters.

Heather: Star Wars has been a part of my life in a mostly passing way since I was nine years old when I was brought to see one of the prequels in theaters. My aunt and uncle and I also watched the originals and prequels at various points when I was a teenager though admittedly my interest was fleeting at best. In January of 2016 that very same aunt and uncle were back in our hometown visiting from England and they wanted to go see The Force Awakens for their third time. I had absolutely no interest in going to go see it but I wanted the family time so I did and I’m glad I did because I walked out a huge fan. For all of the grief I now give JJ Abrams I will say that he set out to make TFA both for old fans and to create new fans and he succeeded in that.

What did you think of Rey’s journey in this movie?

Cam: A complete regression of whatever it was supposed to be. I can’t explain it in a different way. From the beginning Rey was alone, in a desert planet, begging to find her parents and a belonging. As the movies progressed she finally learned she had to continue her life, she couldn’t be stuck in that place forever, and that she could find other people who would love her, “the belonging you seek is ahead” and all. She realized she could be powerful and important just for being who she is on the Last Jedi. She didn’t need famous parents to matter.

On Rise of Skywalker they reverted all that, she did need famous parents indeed and she never should have had to learn how to move on from her pain and self doubt regarding them since they were always good people that had loved her. Despite her entire journey, the movie frames her ending as someone who was again alone and again on a desert planet (despite arguments that it didn’t mean she would be alone, when a movie ends in a certain note that’s what you want your audience to take from it). It’s just a terrible regression that didn’t care for all the things this character needed but that instead cared about online complaints regarding her surname.

April: Rey’s journey in this film felt, in many ways, unfinished. We’ve always known that the Star Wars Saga was ultimately Luke’s story, even as we had other protagonists in the prequel trilogy it was clear that we were watching the beginnings of Luke (Padme and Anakin wind up being his parents and we watch the birth of his ultimate foe, Darth Vader). Unfortunately, “The Rise of Skywalker” (and indeed the entire sequel trilogy) struggle with the idea of Rey being anything more than just the final piece of Luke Skywalker’s story. Perhaps this would have read better had Rey been a Skywalker (as was clearly J.J. Abram’s (director of “The Force Awakens” and “ The Rise of Skywalker) initial plan, but instead Rey doesn’t actually begin her journey until the moment she stares off into the sun on Tatooine as the music swells dramatically. While it’s not unusual for a story to end with the hero heading into a new adventure, for this to be the “end” of Rey’s story feels almost empty, because we never truly saw her beginning.

Anika: Where do I start with Rey’s journey in TROS? Quite honestly, except for Rey becoming the powerful Jedi we all knew she would be, I don’t think she had much of a journey. She wanted to know her place in all of this and she does learn it along with a few other truths, but her reaction to every thing she learns was virtually non-existent. Rey’s journey is the saddest part of this movie. She finds the belonging that she wanted, but she has lost a maternal and paternal figure, a mentor and her other half in the Force. Rey is at the end of it alone again. How is that a happy ending for her?

Logan: Trying to think through my opinion is making me realize she didn’t really have much of one in this film. She started a strong Jedi and ended a strong Jedi. She started out as part of The Resistance and ended as part of The Resistance. The only changes to her journey revolve around finding out her lineage, which didn’t change any part of who she is, and also loss. Loss of Leia. Loss of Ben. Isolating Rey’s journey leaves me sort of depressed. So, my thoughts are that I don’t like it.

Maggie: At the end of The Last Jedi Rey was posed to have an incredible final act, unfortunately The Rise of Skywalker ended up being a regressive ending to her story. Her journey is rushed, disjointed, and nonsensical in this film. We never get her reacting to the revelation that she’s Darth Sidious’ granddaughter, which is perhaps one of the worst mistakes this film commits. The main protagonist is presented with a life changing detail about her past and is denied the chance to react verbally to the revelation. Not only was the implementation lacking, but the reasoning behind her having to be related to someone felt unnecessary. If Palpatine had always been the endgame for the trilogy, he should’ve been alluded to in the previous two films.

Jenna: Not only did I think that Rey had no growth in this movie, but I would even go as far as to say she regressed. In The Force Awakens, Rey’s story began with her living in the desert alone and waiting for parents that would never come back to her. In The Rise of Skywalker, Rey’s story ended with her living in the desert alone and isolating herself from the friends and family she has come to know. At least, that’s how I interpreted it. The Last Jedi set this movie up to have Rey realize how special and loved she is regardless of who her parents were, but this idea was thrown aside in favor of making her special only because of her family name.

Heather: Hated. It. I loved the message of TLJ that you don’t have to come from a powerful bloodline to be special or important and it was completely re-written. You’re only special if you come from one of these two families. Sucks to suck for the rest of you.

What was your favorite part of the sequel trilogy?

Cam: Ben and Rey’s ever growing understanding and love for each other. And Kylo Ren/Ben Solo’s entire arc that showed his pull to the light and his pain regarding the darkness.

April: The chemistry between the new trio (Rey, Finn and Poe) is hands down my favorite aspect of the new trilogy. Oscar Issac, John Boyega and Daisy Ridley play excellently off of each other and their interactions are a joy to watch. One thing The Rise of Skywalker did tremendously well was highlight their relationship and it is my opinion that Rey is now happily touring the sky with her boyfriend (Finn) and his boyfriend (Poe).

Anika: It’s a tie between the Throne Room scene and the hand touch scene in the hut. In the scene where she touches Kylo’s hand, we get to see both their vulnerabilities. He’s admitting that what she is going through, her loneliness is how he feels, too, and she’s reassuring him that it’s never too late to change that. The Throne Room scene is the best one in the trilogy. It was perfection in it’s execution. They way moved in sync with each other, watched each other’s back and that heartbreaking end when he offers her his hand and she knows she cannot take it was beyond anything else I had seen.

Logan: Admiral Holdo lightspeeding through a Star Destroyer. Hands Down. For me, Holdo was one of the most memorable characters of the sequel trilogy and that moment was followed by an eerie silence in the theater that I will never forget. Aside from that is all the confirmation of Jedi Leia, the return of Han, Poe’s introduction in The Force Awakens, the glory of Rose Tico. There are many moments that I will remember for many Star Wars films to come.

Maggie: The Throne Room scene in The Last Jedi will remain my favorite part of this entire trilogy. The fight choreography is incredible and I felt like it was really a defining moment for both Rey and Ben. Watching them fight back-to-back was pretty amazing to see. Not to mention it’s some of Adam and Daisy’s best acting in the trilogy. So many emotions play out from the start to end of that scene. It’s flawless.

Jenna: The Throne Room scene in The Last Jedi, by far. Adam so clearly showcased the emotions passing through Ben’s mind when he decided to take down the man who had been abusing him his whole life. When Ben and Rey stood back-to-back to fight together after Ben ripped Anakin’s lightsaber through Snoke I could feel every cell in my body start to scream in excitement. It felt like such a pivotal moment in not only the movie, but the entire trilogy. Seeing a clip of Ben leaning forward so Rey could grab onto his thigh and balance herself on his back to kick one of the Praetorian Guard is actually what convinced me to watch the sequel trilogy.

Heather: Reylo. Kidding…mostly. I can’t deny that their chemistry and the thrill of a possible enemies to lovers/good girl & bad boy story was what made me originally interested in the first place but I think my favorite part was all of the fandom anticipation. Who would Rey be? Would Kylo turn back to the light? Would the Resistance survive? Would Leia keep her role as General? In between each movie fandom was always alive with theories and speculation and there’s a sort of magic and unity in that that I’ve always enjoyed.

What was your favorite part of TRoS?

Cam: Ben Solo being redeemed, as he should have. And all of the amazing scenes between him and Rey.

April: My favorite part of The Rise of Skywalker would have to be the reinforcement of the idea of “togetherness”. You see it, perhaps most clearly, in the moment when, wrapped up in his devastation about leading his forces once more into a hopeless battle, Poe hears Lando’s voice over the radio. When he pulls up and sees the crowd of ships full of “just people” to quote one First Order combatant, it’s such a powerful feeling. That same theme makes itself present again in Rey’s battle against Palpatines, when she is at her most defeated and we hear the voices of Obi-Wan, Anakin, Yoda, Luke, Ashoka and more, reminding her that she is not alone, because she is “all the Jedi”, it’s also repeated throughout the trio’s interactions, they even go so far as to use the word “together”. It’s a constant message in this film and it’s so necessary in our current time. It’s a reminder to each one and all of us that there are always “more of us” then those who would seek to keep us downtrodden and together, we can spark a true revolution.

Anika: Without a doubt, Han and Ben’s scene on the Death Star. Leia reached Ben, but it was his father’s love and forgiveness which truly made the difference. Ben was never the same after killing Han and he needed to make peace with what he did and to accept that forgiveness is possible. Change is possible, even if we veer so off course that we can’t possibly see the way back. My two favorite characters in Star Wars sharing a much needed cathartic moment literally made me tear up.

Logan: If I’m picking just one thing then I’m choosing General Leia Organa. My gasp at the flashback of her and Luke was loud and probably annoying to everyone around me. She has a lightsaber. She’s a Jedi Master. She’s fearless and selfless and as bad ass as she ever was. I got to say a beautiful goodbye to Carrie Fisher and that meant more than anything else. Honorable mentions, though, to Harrison Ford returning as Han for one brief shining moment and to Kylo/Ben’s redemption arc that I never for one second thought I would ever buy into and yet somehow did. (Also, D-O and Babu Frik because how can you not love them?)

Maggie: I wish I could say the Reylo kiss was my favorite part of the film, however the moment was so rushed and poorly orchestrated that I struggle with enjoying it. I can’t even think of dialogue in this film that I enjoyed. With The Last Jedi so many lines stood out — lines with substance. I suppose I enjoyed seeing the porgs one last time.

Jenna: My favorite part was when Ben showed up on Exegol to help Rey. The second you saw him running, you knew you were no longer looking at Kylo Ren. This was now Ben Solo. From his hair to his loose sweater to his quiet “Ow”, there was no question about who was on the screen. When Rey and Ben finally used their forcebond to help each other and she gave him Anakin’s lightsaber, I could physically feel my heart squeeze in joy. Oh yeah, the Reylo kiss was pretty amazing, too. Too bad he had to die right after.

Heather: The final force bond between Rey and Ben when she gives him the light saber and he pulls it out from behind his back. That was a moment. I also really liked when after the trio fell through the quicksand stuff Rey lit her saber to light the way and Poe turned on his little flashlight. It was a cheap way to make the audience laugh but it worked and I did.

What was your least favorite part of TRoS?

Cam: I could say literally anything else but i’m gonna go with Ben Solo’s death.

April: The sidelining of Kelly Marie Tran’s Rose along with the insertion of Jannah and Zorrie feels purposeful and wrong. It was recently announced that Rose had only about one and a half minutes of screen time in the entirety of “The Rise of Skywalker” which seems particularly egregious when one considers how prominently she was featured in “The Last Jedi”. Even worse, she is almost “replaced” by the insertion of Zorrie and Jannah, both of whom serve no true purpose to the overall plot of the film.

Zorrie is there to forcefully remind us that Oscar Issac’s Poe is straight and that’s it! You could argue that she put them in contact with the tiny alien (Babu Frik) who wound up highjacking C3PO’s memory drives, but, Poe was a spice runner in this same crew and thus already knew him. We never even see her entire face, but we do get to see her modeling a skin tight pink catsuit-to emphasis her femininity.

The same thing happens with Jannah, an ex-Stormtrooper who exists only to provide a point of similarity with Finn and also to be Lando’s daughter (something that’s not even clearly told in the film. She’s tough and strong and has grit and determination in spades. She doesn’t hesitate to run into battle and in fact supports Finn as he makes what could be a suicide play to take out the lead ship. Both Jannah and Zorrie serve almost as opposites of Rose, in Zorrie: the ultrafeminine and in Jannah, the toughness that Rose wasn’t allowed to have. They even manage to strip Rose of her leadership, refusing to allow her to wear the badge of her station (commander). It’s a disgrace and it should be discussed far and wide.

Anika: I have two that really ticked me off. I absolutely hated Rose Tico’s arc in TROS. New character Beaumont had more lines than she did. After playing a big part in The Last Jedi, I expected more interactions between her, Finn, Poe and Rey, but instead she played the part of an extra, more or less. TROS made it seem as if she was an afterthought for Finn. I never got a chance to see a Rey and Rose friendship or even Rose on a mission with the others. She lost her voice because whiny, entitled fans were upset for no other reason than she was a woman and a person of color. It is even more upsetting that their vitriol was rewarded. The second thing that really bugged me was the predictability and, therefore, unoriginal end of Ben’s death. For once, it would have been nice to see the redeemed hero live.

Logan: There are two least favorite things that are tied for how enraged they make me. One, the obvious sidelining and invalidation of Rose Tico. Which is thanks to Abrams and Company caving to racist and misogynistic nerd boys. Two, the death of Ben Solo. I am by no means a fan of Kylo Ren. Prior to this movie I did not believe for one second that he could be redeemed. (Check my tweets, seriously). But his death does not enrage me for Ben’s sake but for Han and Leia’s. They sacrificed their lives to reach Ben and hopefully save his life. Ben’s death makes their sacrifices pointless. My two favorite Star Wars characters of all time were killed for nothing. Great. Perfect. Thanks, JJ Abrams. That feels fan-freaking-tastic.

Maggie: Where do I even begin? There was about 131 minutes of content I didn’t care for. I will die bitter about how they reduced Rose Tico’s role in response to racist men from the worst parts of the internet. The lines that were given to J.J.’s buddy Dominic Mongaghan could’ve been given to Rose. The fact that the only real lines that Rose had in the film were lines were she rejected joining the main plot seemed far too intentional. Outside of the #WheresRose issue, what they did with Poe Dameron’s character was perhaps my number one complaint coming out of the film. The entire subplot with Zorri Bliss was unnecessary and only served to remind FinnPoe shippers that Poe had a girlfriend and change his backstory to incorporate an unfortunate Latinx stereotype that he was a drug smuggler. Outside of yelling Rey’s name, what was Finn’s role in this film? Coming out of The Last Jedi he had matured as a character, but throughout The Rise of Skywalker it seemed like J.J. had no plan for what to do with him. Wouldn’t it have been awesome if he’d actually been able to say he was Force Sensitive and we didn’t have to get that information from subsequent interviews and an Instagram post?

Jenna: I could probably write a whole book about what I didn’t like about this movie. Plot holes (how Palpatine is alive, Palpatine wanting Rey dead then all of a sudden wanting her alive, how a spaceship that’s been underwater for years and has been torn for scraps actually works), character stories (Rose being sidelined, Poe being a drug dealer, Ben’s redemption arc fading away with his body), and many many more aspects of this movie keep me up at night.

Heather: The sloppy editing, the incoherent storyline beats, how much this movie wanted to be an action movie with all of the “pew pew!” instead of focusing on character and emotional beats and attempting to distract the audience with bright flashing lights and loud sounds so that they wouldn’t notice how nothing was actually making sense with the plot.

If you could change one thing about this movie, what would it be and why?

Cam: I’d definitely make Ben Solo live. Perhaps this sounds simple for some but the fact is, for one if that happened I would have hope for the Skywalkers. All of their suffering, from Anakin Skywalker to Ben Solo wouldn’t have ended in such a bitter note. The Star Wars Saga have always been about the Skywalkers and while a lot is wrong in the last movie, you would think they at least would have respected the legacy and the theme of a 40 year old saga. But the way Rise ended the story Palpatine was able to manipulate and ultimately end their bloodline. It wasn’t a victory, it was a tragedy.

(I won’t even get into how watching the death of a character that felt lost and needed redemption is just a terrible message as well. The number of people that felt utterly defeated and left the movie crying speaks on its own)

April: The kiss between Kylo and Rey. I’ve seen the movie three times now, once alone, and two other times with people who are aware of the films but are not superfans. In every instance the kiss feels out of place, abrupt and unearned, not just to me but to those I attended with. I believe there were other ways to show the connection between Kylo and Rey (and in fact we’ve seen it highlighted in both “The Last Jedi” and “The Rise of Skywalker” via their force connection) without having them kiss. It is perhaps even more jarring to see them share a kiss in the moments before Ren’s death because we’ve never seen Rey or Ren acknowledge the injuries he’s dealt her, both physically and emotionally. It’s impossible to form an emotional investment in a relationship that is built on dishonesty, lack of trust and no genuine affection between either party. Perhaps if Kylo had actually been redeemed it’s a conversation worth having, but he wasn’t and thus, it isn’t.

Anika: Ben Solo’s death and, therefore, the end of the Skywalkers. When I say Ben deserved more, I am saying it from a place that wanted, needed and expected better for the last Skywalker and the child of Leia Organa and Han Solo. Ben Solo has never really known a moment’s peace. I wanted him to live so he could discover who he was without a Sith Lord in his head, to atone for the things he did and to finish the work his mother started. It was lazy and easy writing to kill Ben.

Logan: I’m gonna change two, because if you’re giving me this chance I’m pushing my limits. One: Ben lives. Two: Rose goes with our Main Trio. Ben lives so that Han and Leia’s deaths have meaning. Rose goes with the trio because the amount of times they needed a mechanic were numerous and Rose was wasted staying behind with Leia. (Obviously considering Merry from Lord of the Rings had all the dialogue Rose should have had.)

Maggie: That’s a loaded question. If I had to choose one singular change, I would’ve started the film with Leia having died in the time between The Last Jedi and The Rise of Skywalker. In that situation, J.J. wouldn’t have been limited to playing around unused The Force Awakens scenes. Poe would’ve been General Poe outright, rather than handing him the role in Act 3 without any follow through. The pacing of the film would’ve likely been better and the stakes would’ve shifted.

Jenna: There are many things I would change in this movie, but if I had to pick one, it would be that Ben would get to live in the end. I’ve heard arguments that he deserved to die because of everything that he’s done, but I would argue back that he deserves to live for those same reasons. Dying is easy, but living is hard. If he had lived, he wouldn’t have just been able to jump into the Resistance with open arms. He would’ve had to work for forgiveness. He deserved to live so that he could eventually earn that forgiveness. Not to mention that his dying also ripped away not only the first love that Rey ever had, but also her Force equivalent of a soulmate.

Heather: I’ll give you three because I do what I want:

Ben Solo should have lived and earned the right to his redemption. Being redeemed through death is cheap and manipulative and had already been done in the original trilogy. Tell a new story. Let the villain earn his redemption by actively righting their wrongs instead of just killing them off.

Rose going on the adventure with the trio. Her underutilization is disgustingly criminal.

Not making Poe a drug runner just for a laugh and a plot point. There wasn’t even a hint of shady behavior in the other two movies so pulling it out of left field was not only jarring but for fans who actually read the supplemental material, noticeably false.

What unanswered questions would you like to have been addressed?

Cam: How is Palpatine back? Why didn’t Rey’s dad show up to her all these years if he was Force Sensitive? If Palpatine created Snoke why didn’t he know about the Force Dyad until the end of the movie? Why didn’t Ben Solo’s force ghost show up? Why didn’t we see Rey mourn her canonical soulmate? What is happening between Finn and Rose? Why was Kelly Marie Tran so terribly sidelined?

April: What is the confession Finn is trying to make? Yes, it has been purported that it’s pertaining to his force sensitivity. But this is a fact already known since The Force Awakens and one that he would not seek to hide from Poe, especially not in his potential dying moments. In fact, he mentions to Jannah that what led him away from the First Order was the force. We have no reason to believe force sensitivity is truly the secret.

Why didn’t Lando search for his missing daughter? The Visual Dictionary advises us that Jannah is Lando’s daughter and yet we are to believe that Lando has not spent the past 20 years searching for his daughter but stuck on another desert planet doing exactly nothing. Even the ending scene is ambiguous about who Jannah really is.

How did Palpatine survive being thrown down a shaft by Darth Vader and blown up in the second Death Star? We’re given no hints about that, although we are shown Palpatine hooked up to a crane like device receiving constant transfusions to a zombified corpse.

When did Palpatine even have time to have a child? Given the time frame, the only possible time for Rey’s father to have been, well…fathered is between “Revenge of the Sith” and “A New Hope” and I don’t know a lot of people who would have slept with Palpatine the way he looked back then.

How did Luke and Leia discover Rey was a Palpatine? Did Luke discover it in the Force? Was it just a feeling he had? Why did neither of them think to mention it to to Rey? Why did they continue to train her after discovering it?

Anika: How is Palpatine still alive and, if he created Snoke, why didn’t he know Ben and Rey were bonded? If Palpatine could find Ben in Leia’s womb, why couldn’t he find his granddaughter who shared his blood? Why didn’t Leia become a Force Ghost until Ben’s death and why didn’t Ben become one at all? Most importantly, I need to know where the Sith death eaters came from?

Logan: Does Rey ever find out that Finn has been pining for her for three films? That seemed like something important they introduced in The Force Awakens that got dropped for no reason. (Bonus: How was Palpatine behind Snoke this whole time? That made no sense whatsoever.)

Maggie: Why wasn’t Ben a Force Ghost at the end? Why did Rey decided to bury the lightsabers on Tatooine — a planet Luke despised, Anakin hated, and Leia never visited. How is the galaxy going to react to the granddaughter of Darth Sidious? How does Rey feel about the revelation? Why didn’t Rey mourn the loss of Ben? Why was Maz smiling when Leia vanished, given that Ben had died? Why was there so much focus on Rey staring at children? What was the point of the Force Dyad? What was the point of the visions in The Force Awakens? Why did the Knights of Ren exist? Why didn’t they just say Jannah is Lando’s daughter?

Jenna: How did Palpatine survive? What happened to Finn and Rose’s relationship? What was the point of Rey’s vision in The Last Jedi signifying that she was a nobody if she was a Palpatine? How did Ben not die after being thrown off the cliff? Why did the Jedi not help Ben? Why did the Jedi not do something to help heal Rey when she died after killing Palpatine? Why was Ben not a Force Ghost in the end? Why did we see such little reaction from Rey when Ben died? Why did Rey bury the lightsabers on Tatooine? Why did Leia wait to become one with the Force until Ben died, as if that’s something she wanted? Why did Rey take the Skywalker name instead of embracing that she didn’t need a name to make her special?

Heather: So many questions. How is Palpatine back? How did Ben get to Exegol if Rey stole his Tie Fighter on the Death Star? Why did Palps not know Ben and Rey had a force bond if Snoke claimed to create it and he created Snoke? Why did both Snoke and Palpatine want Kylo to kill Rey if in the end he wanted Rey to kill him instead? How was Poe ever a drug runner when in his comic he was born and raised on the Rebel base? If killing Palpatine would bring all of the Sith in to Rey’s body and she did in fact kill him, do all of the Sith and all of the Jedi live in her now? Why did Anakin say, “Rise and bring balance to the force like I did.” when Palpatine wasn’t dead meaning he didn’t bring balance to the force (and really his whole arc is now obsolete since he was in fact, not the chosen one after all)? There are more but if I kept going I would have an entire essay.

Were you satisfied by the ending of the trilogy? Why or why not?

Cam: Not at all. This trilogy ended making an even bigger tragedy out of the Skywalkers, I can barely watch the other movies without thinking “this was all for nothing.” The one character that knew enough about the Skywalkers and survived the ordeal (Rey) is alone. What is there to be satisfied about?

April: As an ending to Luke’s story I am absolutely satisfied with the ending of the trilogy and as a fan of his, I’m happy with what we received for him, Leia and even Anakin. As a fan of the new trio, I find myself wanting more of their stories. Who are they besides a former scavenger, spice runner and stormtrooper? Yes, Rey is “all the Jedi” and the granddaughter of Palpatine but who is Rey? We’ve spent three films with her and her primary focus has always been saving a male of the Skywalker line, in “The Force Awakens” that’s Luke and in “The Last Jedi” and “The Rise of Skywalker” that’s Kylo.

Who is she when that’s not her primary focus? Now we’ll never know. Yes, Poe is a child of the resistance, a spice runner and, now, a general, but who is Poe? In both “The Force Awakens” and “The Rise of Skywalker we see the beginnings of his story, a child of the resistance who, perhaps due to his parent’s deaths winds up a spice runner (something I don’t find as objectionable as many do-historically People of Color often do things deemed objectionable to support themselves or their families in troubled times) before coming back into the resistance fold with the return of information about Luke Skywalker’s return. We are given hints of his time as a spice runner, a possible past romance with Zorrie and then nothing else.

Finn is perhaps the biggest mystery. Even his name is not his own, given to him by Poe upon their first meeting. We will never know who he came from, what specifically about “the force” drove him to leave the First Order and trust the Resistance. We’ll never learn more about his force sensitivity and what that means for his potential future as a Jedi, we’ll never learn about the other stormtroopers who are also potentially force sensitive. So much is left up to guesswork and it is the worst part of the ending to me.

Anika: I was not satisfied at all. As I said before, the redeemed hero dying is so predictable. The story of the Skywalkers ends as one of tragedy and not hope(I’m sorry saying you are a Skywalker does not make you one). Rey is back in the desert again. I really don’t see how some found this satisfying.

Logan: No, because now Han and Leia died for nothing. That is the worst ending I could have imagined for two heroes of their caliber.

Maggie: No. I genuinely do not know how anyone can be satisfied with that ending. Han, Leia, and Luke died for nothing. The Skywalker line is dead. A Palpatine is using their name. Rey is back on a desert planet, right where she began.

Jenna: No. I felt like I left the theater with more questions than when I walked in, and that’s never something you want from the conclusion of a trilogy. I walked out literally feeling used and abused.

Heather: No. I am not satisfied at all. As a whole this movie was a mess. I know that JJ Abrams and Chris Terrio want to place the blame of that on to literally everyone but themselves but the fact of the matter is Rian Johnson dismantled everything in The Last Jedi which gave them a fresh start to tell a different story. Instead, they pretended that TLJ didn’t happen at all, retconned everything that happened in it, and once again fell on to using what worked in the original trilogy, instead of doing what their paid to do and giving us a cohesive, good, imaginative story. Putting all of your faith in to a trilogy and thinking it’s going to lead somewhere that they assured you was hopeful and good and having the rug pulled from under you is not what I would call a good time.

Kylo Ren; Redeemed or not? Do actions speak louder than words?

Cam: Definitely yes. Adam Driver was given nearly 0 lines after the redemption, so it’s hard to speak about words here, but ultimately his character did everything in his power to fight Palpatine and save Rey, so, yes.

April: I do not believe that Kylo Ren was redeemed, nor do I believe it was ever in the cards for him to be redeemed. There is a common belief that Kylo turned due to abuse, but we are not canonically shown any evidence of this. Yes, a voice whispering in your head can be stressful, but Kylo was born to two of the biggest heroes in the resistance and nephew to another, even if he didn’t feel comfortable turning to Luke (and who can blame him) in the aftermath of Luke contemplating killing him, his parents were still there. In choosing to run to Snoke, Kylo made a choice that would forever taint his life. In each movie of the franchise, we continue to see Kylo choose darkness and power.

In “The Force Awakens” he slaughters a village to obtain information about his uncle. He kills Snoke to become the Supreme Leader, in “The Last Jedi”, and when Rey offers him her hand, the final opportunity to truly do good, he refuses because his desire for power is stronger. Even as “The Rise of Skywalker” begins he is once again slaughtering people (who, to be fair, were a cult loyal to both Vader and Lady Corvax-but again, this information is not shown it is told in the Visual Dictionary). When he is searching out Palpatine it is, once again, to kill the person standing between him and the potential for true power. Kylo is, for all intents and purposes his grandfather all over again and neither of them deserved redemption in the true sense of the word.

Kylo’s last few acts, to run to Exegol, to fight against Palpatine and to give his life force to Rey are-ultimately much the same as his grandfather’s. He realizes that he’ll never truly have the ability to atone for his actions and so he gives his life to Rey, allowing her to be the balance his grandfather was always meant to be. This sacrifice is the most noble thing Kylo is ever shown to have done and because it comes so late in the trilogy, literally the final act of the final act, it is largely worthless. It is possible to give characters like Kylo real redemption (see Zuko of “The Last Airbender” fame) and it would perhaps have been possible even for Kylo, if only they’d begin his journey to that redemption in the end of “The Force Awakens” or the beginning of “The Last Jedi.”.

Anika: Redeemed. It’s been something I have wanted for him since The Force Awakens. I expected more with his redemption, however. He never got to express himself through words and I hate that he was sidelined for the fight with Palpatine. I’m glad we got a redemption, but it felt a little anti-climatic.

Logan: Not a fan of Kylo Ren, but I would say yes. I think as Han said, Kylo Ren is dead. We were seeing Ben Solo by the end of that movie and I wish we hadn’t had to say goodbye so soon. Adam Driver made him the perfect combination of Han and Leia and that could have been a joy to watch for more than just a few minutes.

Maggie: I have been rooting for Bendemption since The Force Awakens. The execution of redemption was awful. I would love to know what J.J. has against Adam Driver, because from the moment Kylo Ren is “redeemed” he speaks a single line of dialogue — “ow”. While I love the moment where Ben fights the Knights of Ren, I would’ve preferred some sort of dialogue as a trade. Not to mention the film starts with Kylo Ren reduced to his The Force Awakens persona and seems to forget The Last Jedi even happened. I got redemption, but at what cost?

Jenna: Kylo Ren being redeemed was one of the things I was looking forward to most this movie, but I was severely let down with how I got it. The scene with Kylo and Han was cheaply ripped straight from The Force Awakens. I believe they could have done this in a good way, but sadly, the way they chose to do it wasn’t the best. However, I did enjoy his scene on Exegol when he fought against the Knights of Ren. Unfortunately, this was also downplayed by Ben’s lack of dialogue in the whole end of the movie. After his redemption, we never get to hear him talk again, and then he dies.

Heather: Absolutely redeemed. Not only did Han explicitly say (and it doesn’t matter that it was in Kylo’s head because it’s what the writing wanted the audience to take away from the conversation by explicitly stating it) that “Kylo Ren is dead, my son is alive.” But Kylo threw his saber in to the ocean, picked up a blaster, and became Ben Solo. His mannerisms, his wardrobe, everything screamed, “I’m a different person now!” So, yes. It’s funny that you ask if actions speak louder than words though since the only word he said after his redemption was “Ow.” Don’t get me started.

Would you like to see more of the Skywalker saga? Is it put to rest?

Cam: Before watching Rise of Skywalker I would say no, but right now I kinda need one last movie to actually give justice to the Skywallkers. Just saying.

April: As I stated earlier, I believe that “The Rise of Skywalker” puts paid to the Skywalker Saga. I believe that their story has reached it’s natural, hard fought conclusion. I am satisfied with where our original characters have been left, with perhaps the exception of General Leia Organa but we all know why her story ended the way it did. With that being said, I would be interested in following the story of our sequel trio for one more film, watching them truly discover themselves and their reason independent of the influence of the Skywalker family. I’d also love a story about Rose Tico and Paige Tico, if Kelly Marie Tran would be interested.

Anika: In the current state of affairs, no. If they explain that Ben isn’t really dead, but exists in the World between worlds and there is a quest to bring him back, I’m all for it. I don’t see how you continue the saga without a Skywalker. Again, I don’t count Rey as one because she says so.

Logan: Unless they can give me a do over of this entire movie then no. Leave it lying in it’s own mediocrity. It’s what Abrams, Kennedy, and crew deserve for allowing fear of a fandom to dictate their every decision. They were afraid of giving any one group something so, as a result, no one got anything. Let’s just put the Skywalkers out of their misery and move on to new characters and new sagas. (Once again, unless I can get a do over of the final film in the saga which will never happen.)

Maggie: Look, if it’s the actual Skywalkers and not Rey Palpatine using their name, then sure. I keep saying I would love to see them create something like The Clone Wars to improve upon this terribly rushed film.

Jenna: I would only like to see more of the Skywalker saga if they would bring back Ben. Put an actual Skywalker on my screen, or I don’t want it.

Heather: I’m not particularly thrilled that at the end of the “Skywalker Saga” all of the Skywalker’s are actually dead. In fact, I’m downright bitter about it and don’t find that satisfying in any way whatsoever. So, I think after a rest (perhaps 5-10 years) I would like to see more of the Skywalker Story. Maybe Ben is in the World Between Worlds paying penance, maybe Force Ghost Luke is getting up to some after life shenanigans. I don’t know but I do know that I’d love to see it.

Who is your favorite character of the sequel trilogy?

Cam: Ben Solo.

April: My favorite character in this last installment of the Skywalker Saga is Finn. Former stormtrooper turned resistance hero his story is what a lot of people wanted Kylo Ren’s to be. He’s bold and protective of his found family. He’s kind and generous and, even as he makes mistakes, he works consistently to correct them. He has never left a friend behind. He is loyal and fair. His choice to consistently do “the right thing” when every piece of his upbringing tells him otherwise is hero-worthy. I’m so grateful that he was created and so grateful that John Boyega was chosen to breathe life into him.

Anika: Kylo Ren, hands down. He was more of an emotional, adult child still seeking love and approval than a real villain to me. His struggle with the Light that’s still a part of him, his connection to Rey which is his first real connection to anyone in years, his vulnerability and his redemption made him more than a one dimensional villain. No one could have done this character any more justice than Adam Driver did.

Logan: If I discount one off characters then Poe Dameron. He’s a lot like Han Solo, who has been the love of my life for as far back as I can remember. Also, his introduction in The Force Awakens is one of my all time favorite sequel trilogy moments and I loved him butting heads with Holdo all through The Last Jedi. He was also was the sole character in our main trio to truly keep me invested in this last film.

Maggie: I’m torn between Kylo Ren and Poe Dameron. I think they’re both phenomenal characters and I only wish that the final film had done better with their storylines.

Jenna: Kylo Ren is my absolute favorite. Watching his internal conflict turn to redemption, hate for Rey turn to love, and everything in between was what captivated me to this trilogy. It also helps that Adam Driver is such an amazing actor. He could make watching a cactus interesting.

Heather: Despite being Reylo Trash (which I am and have the necklace that says so to prove it), after much thought I think I’m going to give my favorite character award to Rose. While she was disgustingly underutilized and truly only got one movie to show her stuff I find myself often thinking about “We win not by fighting what we hate but saving what we love.” I find Rose to be an inspirational character. She’s tough but loving. She seems less like a character and more like someone I would know in reality. I don’t know if my love for Rose is for the character herself or because of Kelly Marie Tran’s performance of her but that’s my final answer.

Do you agree? Disagree? Love it, hate it? Either way sound off below in the comments or find us on twitter @TVSource. Thank you to all of our wonderful participants for giving us your wonderful, well thought out answers!

#reylo #tros #fan reactions #from different sides of the fandom #roundtable #reviews #interesting

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