#honestly wincest squicks the fuck out of me

[ltleflrt]

can i ask - what are you thoughts on the current anti-shipping phenomenon in fandom? I've recently gotten into SPN fandom and fallen in love with your fics, but the state of the fandom puzzles me a bit.

Anti-shipping is not a SPN fandom phenomenon, and maybe it seems to be a bigger deal to you because it's a bigger fandom? Wincest and Destiel shippers have been at war since episode 04x01 aired lol...we even have derogatory names for each other: Wincels and Hellers.

(Jokes on the Wincels, because Heller is a fucking awesome name.)

(Wincestiel shippers are fandom unicorns, and they deserve love and respect.)

I've only been involved in fandom since 2011, so most of what I know about anti-shippers comes from piles and piles of posts talking about fandom history, but the gist of it is that this is not current, it is ongoing since the dawn of fandoms, we just have names for it now. Think about Spirk back in the 60s...there were lots of rabid fangirls who saw nothing romantic between them too. We just don't hear as much about them, because they lost their fandom war lol

It's just really loud right now with the rise of conservatism, fascism, and terfs. And social media amplifies all of the above.

Anyway, my thoughts on anti-shippers is that they need to grow up and mind their own business. I am a pro-shipper, which means I believe that anyone has the right to love any ship, no matter how problematic, no matter how much it squicks me out. I believe everyone should be allowed to read whatever vile smut they want, because thought crimes are not real.

Unless a real person is being hurt, have fun.

Antis claim that problematic ships and kinks hurt people, but I think it's important to understand that there's a big difference between accidental and deliberate harm. And harm mitigation is highly important in a world with 7+ billion people and 7+ billion different lived experiences.

If an anti-shipper is hurt by a ship they don't like, they need to learn how to block and filter content so they don't see it, and on the opposite side of that, the vile shippers/kinksters need to tag their nonsense so that they're not accidentally burning someone's eyes out. Which most people ARE kind enough to do. They sit around in their little ficcing circles and cackle over the evil things they're putting their blorbos through, and they put up warning signs, but the antis come barging in to bug them anyway.

In my opinion, many antis are big fucking bullies and do a lot more harm than they claim to try and prevent, and they can all go fuck themselves with something hard and sandpapery.

So uh... yeah, that's how I feel about it 😁

(okay actually I'm not done, there's a lot of anti-shipping discourse about age gaps and what counts as incest that are just... really fucking stupid, and I honestly believe that shit started out because people were grasping for straws to justify why their ship is better than the ship they don't like. unfortunately, the youngins have been soaking up that moral purity language as Objective Truth because they're little sponges. i hope they outgrow that bullshit eventually. i will forgive and forget if they leave behind their purity police badges.)

[himbosuplex]

I don't like to wade into fandom discourse and at the risk of upsetting any of my followers, if I do, I'm sorry, but I have to say my piece:

I deliberately abstain from involving myself in "pro" vs "anti" 99% of the time, but it really bothers me how I've watched the definition of just a regular shipper become "pro-shipper" and then further be deliberately skewed by folks in real time. Like, listen, I'm in my late 30s, I come from a time where shit like Wincest was just kind of a joke and people who didn't like it ignored it, if you get squicked you don't look. Nowadays people treat that sort of thing as being as bad as real-life murder. Nowadays people act like two *fictional* stepsiblings who weren't raised together falling in love is equivalent to real world incest. Do I like Wincest? No. Do I like step-sibling love stories? No, not really. Do I think either warrants peoples lives being ruined or enduring rampant harassment? Absolutely NOT.

The worst part being is that any time anyone speaks up about this shit, people will crawl out of the woodwork to say "so then you're okay with (real life) pedophilia?" And like... to quote the classic tweet... "No b*tch. Dats a whole new sentence. Wtf is you talking bout?"

Like nowhere else but Tumblr would I be called a "groomer apologist" because I ship two consenting FICTIONAL, NOT REAL adults that just happen to have an age gap. Or a "literal serial killer" because I enjoy horror stuff. Someone once called me a predator because I drew queer smut of adult Digimon because "its a kids show" even though I make deliberately clear to tag and label it and note that my work is not appropriate for nor meant for consumption by minors. Like how fucked up is that? To be an actual real survivor of sexual assault and then be called a predator because you drew Etemon with a dick once?

I don't think pro-shipper is a term that can be salvaged, as it has gone too long being used incorrectly. Maybe it shouldn't be. Nor do I think just not being a cop about fiction should really need a label.

But I think at the very least people should understand that pro-shipper was never about being "pro adults with minors" or "problematic" or "pro [insert rancid thing here.]." It came from a time where ship wars were a regular occurrence, and folks were pushing back against people trying to force others to conform to their tastes instead of curating their own space. It was always about "live and let live", and you didn't HAVE to 'be okay' with gross ass stuff, lord knows I'm not, but you didn't have to see someone who wrote a fanfic and could honestly have some real trauma they are sorting out and equate them with real world predators who hurt real people.

Nowadays, people acting like this in fandom is just so normalized and it genuinely terrifies me in this current fiction climate. In the modern era of the increasing pushes for censorship in fiction and book banning that is a deliberate move by conservatives to make people complacent when they continue to ban books for being too queer. You never have to be "okay" with people writing things that gross you out, or make you uncomfortable, but you can block them and continue on. You don't need to be a cop about it. Curate and block what you can, and if anything, encourage people to responsibly tag their media so it can be more easily avoided and encourage spaces to offer the tools to do such things.

So yeah, there's my thoughts. I'll probably regret posting this, but hey, these are my opinions, and I think I'm allowed to have them.

Uh- are you aware of the meaning of proship?

Proship has never meant anything except a combination of three ideas:

Ship and let ship (your ships don't harm me and vice-versa) and YKINMK (your kink is not my kink, and that's okay; my kink stories don't harm you and vice-versa)

Harassment over fiction is not acceptable

Censorship of fiction is not acceptable either

Any other definitions are made by antis, not proshippers, and are an attempt at revisionism to justify harassment based on false claims.

[unforth]

Not so friendly reminder that if you think it's okay to be horrible to real people because they ship something you don't like you should fuck right off my blog.

[there-must-be-a-lock]

Three(k)some Challenge Awards & Masterlist!

So, as per this post, I came up with some wonky little “awards” as part of my threesome challenge, and in true Lou style, I ditched some of those and swapped in a couple new ones, because I am a cruel capricious god writer and there are no rules on this blog. It’s anarchy. 

I didn’t get that many entries, and they were all great, so I wanted to recognize each one! There’s an additional rec list coming soon with a general list of threesome fics for your enjoyment, but these are the ones that were submitted specifically for the challenge. 

Thank you to everyone who joined in the fun! You each win a graphic, for your troubles. Get in touch, tell me what you want, and let me make you something pretty. 

The Glass Case of Emotions, for a fic that made me feel my own feelings, goes to Bandits by @watermelonlipstick​​​! The premise (Winchester love triangle) could’ve easily fallen flat, but instead this turned into a story about the boys’ (plentiful) emotional issues. The conflict is true to the psychology of the characters, and that sort of emotional grounding made this feel very real and very touching. 

The Nobel Niche Prize for the most unexpected or unusual character combo goes to Hunter’s Crossing: And Billie Makes Three by @stusbunker​​​! I don’t think I’ve ever seen Billie-centric smut before, and it’s not something I would expect to work for me, but Stu pulled it off. A major factor is the sweetness and trust in the established Dean/Reader relationship, but it’s also because of the spot-fucking-on Billie characterization. It’s honestly rare to see side characters written so well, let alone in a sexy way that doesn’t come across as a caricature. 

The Dentures Award for excellence in extreme tooth-rotting is hereby presented to Three Hearts by @fangirlxwritesx67​​! Like, yes, I am biased, because this is Viv’s take on my favorite Everything-verse throuple and she also put me in the fic, but. God damn. This feels like a cake full of rainbows and smiles, and when I eat read it I’m just so happy! It’s the epitome of fluff, and I want it to be my Valentine. 

The ��I Can’t Believe It’s Not Wincest!” Prize for most creative take on a Winchester sandwich goes to The Next Best Thing by @thinkinghardhardlythinking​​​! And it’s seriously prize-worthy, because as much as I’d like to fantasize about being in the middle of all that, I almost always get hung up on the squick factor. This is a superb workaround to that problem. The setup also makes for some excellent comedic relief, and it’s hot as hell to boot.  

The Ben Shapiro Memorial WAP Award for steamiest smut is presented to Triptych by @thoughtslikeaminefield​​​! This is so sensual and sultry and emotionally rich. It features two very distinct, well-developed OCs, and we get a really lovely picture of their relationship, but also, it’s so Dean. This is not “insert appendage A in hole B” smut; the characters and the tone and the intimacy are unmistakable, and that makes it so much hotter. Bring a bucket and a mop.  

The One Bed Award for best version (or subversion) of a classic fanfic trope goes to Axis Shift by @waywardbaby​​​! Bed sharing is a classic for a reason, let’s be real, and this puts that classic to great use: shyness, tension, are we really doing this? surprise... that’s what it’s all about. Plus a side of self-discovery and first-time-with-the-same-sex thrills! 

The “I Don’t Even Go Here” Award for excellence in a fandom that I know nothing about goes to We Are Gemini by @idabbleincrazy​! I’d literally never heard of the movie, but I still enjoyed the fuck out of this, and that’s not an easy thing to write. The characterizations are very clear even without prior knowledge. Bonus points for the period-typical slang and the defined narrative voice, and for not letting those things distract from the sex appeal. 

The Lizzo Prize for body positivity goes to Girl Crush by @fangirlxwritesx67​​​​! The descriptions of Donna and her curves and her softness are so lovingly written, and then the appreciation for Dean is equal, but such a clear contrast. The worship of both bodies and all their differences makes me feel peak bi. I don’t know how else to describe it! Just... bodies. They’re neat. You can feel the joy in every vivid physical detail in this fic.  

[dreamytfw]

I’m bored and impatient again, so I’m answering stuff from an ask game. OP here. I just want to say preemptively that the shipping questions only pertain to me and how I ship or don’t ship them. I don’t care what y’all ship.

1:What is your Supernatural OTP? Destiel.

2:What’s your opinion on John Winchester? I have a lot of strong feelings about that fucking dickhead.

3:Which season finale was your favorite/least favorite? Favorite: season 8′s was really good. Least favorite: season 10. We almost had Dean in space.

4:Which is your favorite episode? Either Changing Channels or The Man Who Would Be King

5:Which episode makes you cry the most? The episode where Ellen and Jo die ALWAYS makes me cry.

6:Which episode is the funniest to you? The Real Ghostbusters

7:What’s your opinion on Megstiel? I’m okay with it up to a point. That point is crazy!Cas.

8:When did you start watching Supernatural? The hiatus between seasons 7 and 8. I finished my Netflix binge something like the day before season 8 premiered.

9:Which episode title do you think is the funniest? The French Mistake. Gotta love Mel Brooks.

10:What’s your opinion on Garth? I loved Garth! Such a massively under-utilized character.

11:If you could bring back any character, would you? If so, whom? I’d like to finally get Adam out of Hell, but I don’t think that’s quite what you’re asking.

12:Who is your favorite angel? Cas. Duh.

13:Who’s your favorite archangel? Gabriel.

14:What’s your opinion on Wincest? Squicks me the fuck out. Sibling incest does in general. Like, we’re not supposed to want to fuck our siblings guys. That’s how we get Joffery and El Hachizado.

15:What’s your opinion on Lisa? (and Ben, if you want) Ben was kind of blah outside of his first episode. I really liked Lisa and how she refused to take any of Dean’s crap.

16:When did you start blogging about Supernatural? Uh... I think I jumped on board right away?

17:Do you think that Chuck is God? How old are these questions???

18:Do you have a favorite Dick (Roman) joke? If so, what is it? Not a joke, but I’m really weirdly amused that his actor does the voice of a recurring minor character in the Kingdom Hearts series.

19:Which is your favorite episode? We had this question before.

20:Who do you ship Sam with? Samena, but I really love fluffy snuggly Samstiel.

21:What’s your opinion on Destiel? OTP

22:Did you like the first or second Ruby better? iunno.

23:Who’s your favorite demon? Demon!Dean deserved a longer arc.

24:Do you read smutty fanfiction? I fucking write smutty fan fiction (I’m just bad at finishing and publishing it).

25:Do you think Destiel will become canon in season 9? (Regardless of whether you want it to or not) Christ this is old. Unfortunately they did not. But fingers crossed for season 14, aka their 10 year anniversary.

26:Have you ever had a dream about Supernatural/the characters/the actors? If so, can you describe what you remember? All the time. I used to be able to lucid dream to some extent, but since I’ve gone off my psych meds I can’t seem to do it as much anymore. The most recent one I had was the other night. I don’t remember it too clearly, but Sam and I said bye to Dean and Cas before heading off on some sort of mission or something.

27:Which episode is the scariest to you? (Horror-movie type scary) That episode where Sam got his throat ripped out this season was the first time Supernatural has actually scared me. Other episodes have been suspenseful, but I was legit scared during those mine scenes.

28:What’s your opinion on Sabriel? I don’t really see it. MAYBE unrequited on Gabriel’s side, but other than that I just don’t get the appeal.

29:Do you think End!verse will happen? If so, are you looking forward to it? Well, Lucifer’s dead now so I’m guessing no. If End!Verse does happen, Dean and Sam’s places are going to be swapped.

30:Do you have any friends off of the Internet that watch Supernatural? Yes.

31:Do any of your family members watch Supernatural? I got my dad and my brother to watch it, but they kind of dropped it. My mom is currently watching it and I regret everything that has led to this point in my life.

32:What’s an unpopular opinion or headcanon you have? The “romantic” subplots in the Scoobynatural episode were gross and the episode would have been better without them.

33:Do you like AU fanfics? DO I!!!!

34:Have you ever written/started writing a fanfic? See my answer to number 24.

35:What’s your opinion on Samifer? That... really depends on the vessel Lucifer is in. See, I’m a fan of selfcest so if I do read Samifer stuff, I always imagine it as Sam basically fucking himself.

36:If you have an OTP, at what point did you start shipping it? First time I watched. Literally that second episode Cas was in when he was standing in the kitchen with Dean and told Dean to show him some respect I was just like “...are they gonna fuck?”

37:Do you think Sam should have completed the demon trials? Nah.

38:Which director/writer is or was your favorite/least favorite? Favorite: I don’t know. I don’t really pay attention to the good writers because I’m too busy enjoying their content. Least favorite: Bucklemming really needs to be fired or relegated to only filler episodes.

39:Which actor would you most like to meet in real life? MISHA!

40:If you could be any character on the show, would you want to? If so, whom? If not, why? Nah. I kind of like being me. I’m the only person I know how to be.

41:Do you prefer cake or pie? Both ( ͡~ ͜ʖ ͡°)

42:What is your opinion on Sastiel? Is it Samstiel or Sastiel because I just don’t know. I prefer it fluffy. For whatever reason I have trouble getting into smutty Samstiel.

43:Have you ever made a Supernatural reference out loud and received strange looks from some of the people surrounding you? Yes...

44:Have you ever cried over a non-OTP ship from the show? I’m not entirely sure what this question means... Like, have I ever cried over characters in the show that I don’t ship? Yeah. It’s Supernatural.

45:What is your favorite moment from any of the gag reels? “When did you forget how to act?” “Season 2?”

46:Superwholock? Please no.

47:What is/was your favorite Sam hair length? I really liked season 10.

48:What’s an unpopular ship you have? Meg/Bela. Don’t ask, I don’t understand it either.

49:What’s your opinion on Wincestiel? I prefer it as more of a love triangle where Sam and Dean are fighting over Cas’s affection than as a throuple.

50:Can you dig Elvis? Fun fact: I never finished that fan fiction. I loved every moment of it, but I got as far as Dean meeting Adam in Vietnam before I chickened out because I knew there was a bunch more pain on the way.

51:Do you listen to Carry On Wayward Son even when you’re not just watching a finale? I used to, but I’ve since been conditioned to feel pain every time that song starts playing.

52:What’s your opinion on Zachariah? Good antagonist.

53:Do you think Adam will ever get out of the cage? (not as Michael) Not at the rate we’re going.

54:Do you think Sam should have completed the trials? Why are there repeat questions?

55:How long would you survive as a hunter? I wouldn’t.

56:What’s your opinion on Calthazar? Foxhole love/friendly former fwb.

57:Do you have a Netflix account? If so, what’s your username and password? Wait a second, just the first part. I do and I’ve basically just been watching Supernatural on it the past month or so.

58:Have you ever participated in GISHWHES? I did the first year (the one with the pigeon rat mascot). It was fun, but it was stressful to the point where I don’t want to do it again.

59:What movies/shows have you watched because of (or by coincidence) Jared, Jensen, or Misha? Jared: House of Wax... kind of. I turned it off as soon as he got murdered because it was just awful. I also tried watching Gilmore Girls, but I dropped it after two episodes because every character in that show is either a terrible person or blah. The Supernatural Anime. Jensen: My Bloody Valentine, Batman Under the Red Hood. The Supernatural Anime (I know he only voiced the last episode, but he was in it so it counts). THAT ONE EPISODE OF WISHBONE AKA MY CHILDHOOD. Misha: the TSA short films, Karla, NCIS

60:If you could change just one thing about the series, what would it be? I’d make Dean better at using his god damn words.

61:If you were at a Con, what would be a question you would ask?(can be any of the actors) UUUUHHHHHHHH...

62:Why did you start watching Supernatural? Saw it all over tumblr. Got curious. It’s all been downhill from there.

63:What’s your opinion on Sam/Crowley? That’s a thing??

64:What’s your biggest fear for season 9? I honestly don’t remember what it was.

65:What’s your favorite (or at least a memorable) pop culture reference that has been made on the show? Them referencing themselves is always pretty great.

66:Just a random confession you have regarding the show/Asker makes up their own question.

[bisexuallittlefreaks]

All righty then. *rolls up sleeves*

First of all, you came to the wrong house. While I don’t ship any incest ships and don’t see myself ever shipping incest ships, I am marrying an incest shipper who--for the record--is a very well adjusted individual when it comes to separating reality from fiction. (Which, let’s be honest, is the real issue here.)

Second of all, @some-like-it-haught, WE HAVE NOT HAD IT CONFIRMED THEY HAVE THE SAME MOTHER. We know //nothing// about the Waverly not being an Earp situation except that it //may// be true. Literally the only reason why I bring it up is to calm some of you reactive folks down.

@constableambo, good for you Aussies. That isn’t relevant at all. One, because they’re in Canada, not Australia, two, because IT’S FUCKING FICTION. Also because “incest is bad” is not a monolith, it’s a cultural norm and depends entirely on the culture. In Australia, foster siblings are considered incest. In Victorian England, which was not that long ago and is considered one of the most morally upright eras, you could marry your first cousin.

@mememmetra Maybe to you it is gross. That’s called a squick. However, that is your problem, not mine. Personally, even though I don’t ship Earpcest, I don’t find it gross in the slightest. You know why? A) because it was GOOVERLY, not Waverly. It was a fucking demon who has no sense of right or wrong, good or bad, or what may or may not be considered socially acceptable. And even if it did, it obviously doesn’t give a shit. It could be intentionally trying to be “gross” or “wrong”. B) because a simple kiss on the lips between siblings is, in fact, normal and common. There was no tongue, no open mouth, honestly, it was barely even a kiss! Families are allowed to kiss each other on the mouth. If your parents didn’t kiss you goodnight on the mouth, you’re the exception, not the rule.

Finally, as I mentioned earlier, this all comes down to the ability to separate reality from fiction. There is not a single ship (NOT A SINGLE FUCKING SHIP) that I have a problem with people shipping. This includes Reylo, Wincest, Edward/Bella, whatever the fuck the 50 Shades ship is, anything resembling Lolita, and all RPF ships. The problem comes when people cannot separate reality from fiction. When we romanticize a toxic or abusive situation and wish to see it in our actual real-life lives. That is the problem. Shipping two individuals or characters in a fictional world with fictional circumstances is not the problem.

There was a time, long ago, back in my first years of fandom life over a decade ago, when people understood that. They also understood the meaning of squicks and staying in your own damn sandbox. If you don’t like something, that’s fine. More power to you. But don’t attack or “call out” the people who do because it has NOTHING TO DO WITH YOU. When I don’t like something in fandom, I gripe about it to my friends who feel the same way. Maybe I’ll make a post about it, but it won’t be tagged and I won’t go responding to other people’s posts who feel differently than me. I stay in my lane. Because that’s how I was taught fandom worked.

[mad-as-a-box-of-frogs]

Okay.

First off, I will start with saying this wasn’t directly at your post, or any post in particular, just venting my feels that have been simmering for a while now (which I stand by). I don’t think I even read your post, since I have negativity for ts blacklisted. Although I guess it doesn’t much matter, if you were using ‘fandom moms’ in a derisive way that I’ve become resentful of.

That being said . . . i don’t know what you want from me. It’s clear that we have fundamentally opposing views on this. I believe in ‘don’t like don’t read.’ I believe in clear labeling and tagging over content moderation. I’ve always been upfront about that. My interest in writing my Sexual Assault series was in trying to teach people how to recognize sexually abusive practices with the hope that they would consciously avoid writing these elements in their own fic - or at the very least TAG so that people could avoid it as needed. My goal was never to force people to stop, to go into their spaces and demand they stop. Again, I feel like I’ve always been upfront about this.

I don’t believe content moderation is even possible because I believe that the categories of pedophilia/abuse/incest are too broad, too many gray areas, too many cases of one person’s squick is another person’s ‘eh, it doesn’t bother me’. Do we honestly take off all wincest fic? Wincestiel? DeanJimmyCas fic? Jon/Dany and Jamie Cersei from got even though they were canon couples? Are angel pairings in SPN incest? Where do we draw the line at underage? Do you take off Buffy/Angel fic? Fic were the age gap is deemed too large? Fic between a 17 and 19 year old? And what about abuse? Do you take off destiel fic because a sastiel shipper that also happens to be an abuse survivor called it abusive and might genuinely believe it to be so? And look at all the bullshit that happened in the Voltron fandom - do Sheith fics get banned because some people are convinced they’re brothers? And why do the opinions of CSA survivors only matter when they’re against it, not when they use dark fic to cope? And if this is about protecting kids, to me it’s more reasonable to put age limits on Ao3, since Ao3 already has plenty of graphic sex, murder, cannibalism, and everything else under the sun.

Like, I could maybe get behind limiting underage fic, (again, if it were possible to clearly define what is and isnt acceptable, and to ensure people wouldn’t abuse it just to attack pairings with age differences) because I understand the desire to weed out sexual predators from fandom, but I honestly 100% couldn’t give a fuck who writes incest fic or fic with abuse so long as it’s tagged. That’s why Meg*stiel always bothered me more than W*incest, because wincest was generally tagged better than Meg*stiel was. 

I guess at the end of the day I don’t care what sort of questionable content makes it onto Ao3 because I’m not searching it out. Everything I dislike is blocked by the tags, because I believe I’m in charge of my fandom experience, and no one else. Everything that triggers or hurts me get blacklisted, blocked, or avoided, and it’s worked out pretty well for me so far. 

I need to go to bed for work, so it’s up to you if you want to unfollow me. There won’t be any hard feelings on my part, but I doubt you can change my mind anymore than I can change yours. Again, I think we have fundamentally conflicting viewpoints on how fandom works.