#historical attitudes

[heavenlymorals]

Dutch Van Der Linde: An Outdated Progressive

(Warning: This post contains period typical attitudes such as racism and sexism as well as spoilers for RDR2. This retrospective is also pretty damn long too.)

I love Dutch Van Der Linde. Honestly, he is one of my favorite characters ever and just the whole concept of his character and the philosophy of his character as well is something that just sticks with you.

He is charming, intelligent, cultured, charismatic, a right Messiah, and a right bastard all the same time.

But the thing that I believe people most remember about Dutch Van Der Linde is his romantic image. What I mean by this is the things he stood for and the things he wanted to change.

This makes Dutch have a positive image pretty quickly from the very start. In the first scene with him, he's encouraging people, rallying them up, and giving them hope in such an awful situation. He saves Sadie from a terrible fate and asks Hosea to send someone to bury her husband. Arthur and Charles talk fondly of him. He makes it clear in the train robbery that he despises the systems that keep men rich whilst most people starve.

Whether or not Dutch was always cracked, to the characters in the game, he was a great man because of his beliefs and because of his empathy/sympathy.

But what gets me is that a lot of people in this fandom misconstrue Dutch's character into being what we see today as a progressive. I see people saying things like "Bill shouldn't be racist, he's with Dutch's gang" or "why is Micah in the gang" and other similar things as to where people get confused as to why characters with immoral belief systems are respected and active heavy hitters in the gang.

This isn't saying that Dutch isn't progressive because he IS. For his time period, he was VERY progressive.

However, before I get into that, I want to establish some context in terms of the time period that we are talking about.

Theodore Roosevelt was the 26th president of the United States from 1901 to 1909. He once had dinner with African American leader Booker T. Washington. This one singular act of simply eating with one another as a white man and black man was so scandalous that it became an outrage to many politicians that the PRESIDENT, the literal face of America, was having dinner with a black American leader.

Teddy later put out this response: “The only wise and honorable and Christian thing to do is to treat each Black man and each white man strictly on his merits as a man, giving him no more and no less than he shows himself worthy to have."

A lot of people would take this event and try to say that Teddy Roosevelt was a progressive equivalent to our time when that is simply not true. Roosevelt was racist to many groups in his personal writings and he believed in the racial hierarchy, even though he had respect for any self made man.

Was Roosevelt a progressive? Yes. For his time, he was a progressive. He was pro union, anti monopoly, and created many government departments like the FDA. He also believed in the merits of a man. But the thing about historical progressives is that their standard of progression doesn't fit in with our criteria anymore.

Dutch is the same. Is he a progressive? Yeah, of course he is. But is he a true progressive in our standards? No. Not really.

This is why the gang allows racist gang members. That is also why the only repercussion to such racism is if the victim of it is willing to dish something out like Charles slamming Micah on the ground or Javier pulling a knife on Bill. It is also why the gang is pretty traditional and rigid in their gender roles. It's also why queer people (ie. Bill) are casually mocked within the gang too.

Another thing too- Dutch is a romantic. People misconstrue that with being a progressive when that really isn't the case. Romantacism is a philosophy that was a rejection of the realism of the Enlightment. It focused on Idealism. The thing with Romantacism, though, is that it was a super white-washed philosophy. It was made to mould into white cultures and belief systems specifically for white men. Dutch could say all men are equal and he may believe that, but it's clear that he doesn't see equality in the same way that we see equality today.

What I mean by this is that any man is equal but if told otherwise, that man is the one who has to prove them wrong. It's his business and he should be the one to deal with it. That's why other gang members don't back up Charles or Javier if they find themselves in a situation with another gang member who is racist. It's their responsibility to deal with their own beefs. It wouldn't be like today where we all publically shun racism.

Remember when Dutch, Arthur, and Micah come back from Sadie's cabin? Micah says something about not wanting to share a room with Bill and POC, to which Dutch can hear and doesn't say anything and Hosea only says "Get yourself to bed" instead of calling Micah on what he said. Same goes for Arthur too. He may condemn and do something about violent racism, like how when he helps the doctor in Rhodes get his wagon back, but he doesn't really say anything when Micah or Bill say racist things to Charles, Javier, or Lenny. That's their business, so to speak, and they should be the ones handling it.

Also note the poc's characters relationship with Dutch. Javier likes Dutch because of the revolutionary ideals that he believes in. Charles likes Dutch because he treats him fair. Lenny likes Dutch because Dutch is far more progressive than other white men, but he also calls out Dutch's romantic philosophy because it doesn't really include POC or their struggles. Dutch sympathizes with their struggles, but he cannot emphasize, which is the problem with his romantic philosophy. It's a culture that is a house to white people, but POC are only guests in it in terms of its European and American tradition. Yes, Dutch hates what the Europeans did to the natives, but given the context beforehand and the things he says, he hates less the violence and more the upheaval of the lifestyle that he wants, which is one that is connected to nature and earth. I also find it interesting how the only person Dutch kinda defends from racism is Lenny, the same boy who calls him out for reading too much into Miller and not into reality. It could very much be Dutch unconsciously trying to prove Lenny wrong.

And the thing with Dutch is that he isn't squeaky clean when it comes to racism either. He's racist too, but he's racist to groups that we don't see as marginalized anymore and this goes for Hosea as well. The biggest example of this is with Italians, who weren't considered white at the time, same with the Irish.

We have this conversation between him and Hosea:

"Have you ever met an Italian strongman before?"

"Not outside the circus."

I shouldn't have to explain that.

And there is also when Bronte set them up.

"That greasy son of a bitch, he set us up!"

It doesn't sound strange at first but context matters a lot. Though 'greaser' is a slur that we see thrown at Javier for being a Mexican multiple times in the gang, that slur was also used against Italians. So Dutch saying that is him still purposing that slur but in a different way.

Another thing that I noticed is that whenever Dutch wants to speak with someone who isn't white or wasn't deemed white at the time, he would dumb down or slow down his speech first before the person he's speaking to shows that they know English, in which then he talks normally. He doesn't automatically consider that hey, these are people who are intelligent and understand English.

Here are two examples:

This is Dutch to Bronte.

"Why do you take his son?"

"Excuse me?"

"I said why DID you take his son."

He fixes the way he talks as soon as he realizes that Bronte speaks english.

And then to Eagle Flies.

"How do you DO?" (In the game, he slows down his speech and emphasizes the do.)

"Not well, sir."

"I can see that."

This is such a subtle detail but it shows that even subconsciously, Dutch isn't as admirable as we sometimes like to make him out to be in terms of OUR time period and that we shouldn't be surprised when other gang members or Dutch himself do or say things that aren't cool.

And of course, there is the sexism of the gang and that Dutch is shown to be sexist multiple times in the game.

"There are two theories about arguing with women and neither of them work."

"Good Lord, a few more like her and we can take over the whole world." (This was a sarcastic dig at Sadie)

And given the rigidness of the gender roles in camp and that the girls are barely in any missions and are mostly just doing house work, Dutch supports this system because just like how political Romantacism wasn't really for POC, it wasn't really for women either.

He can also be religiously prejudiced as well, though this shows up only once in the game. When you get into Saint Denis, Dutch says this:

"Here we are in this strange land of Papists and rapists."

Papists is another word for Catholic and given how he connects them with rapists, it makes it quite clear that he doesn't like them all that much, which makes sense given that Dutch is some form of Protestant and the general disgust regarding Catholics at the time. There is also the fact that a lot of reasons why Italians, Irish, and Hispanic people dealt with discrimination is because of the Catholic background in many of their cultures.

Again, it's a small detail, but when you look at the time period he says that in, it opens up many doors to many other social issues that were there at the time and how Dutch, despite being better than many, is also still a man of his time and this idea that the gang is this beacon of prosperity and progression is generally overemphasized to something that it is not.

Again, I love Dutch's character and he was a progressive but it isn't surprising to see these negative equalities come out from him and from the gang as an extension. They all have their flaws, even if those flaws are especially jarring at points.

Historical people almost always have historical attitudes, guys. It's just the unfortunate truth.

In any case, this is already way too damn long and I hate proof reading so bye 😃

[toytulini]

listen im ace and im pro kink at pride and whatever, but the way some of yall are wording your posts in response to the backlash against it is uh. really taking me back to the ace shitcourse era.

yall know theres nothing wrong with being a "virgin", right? that its not inherently shameful to have not had sex, to never have sex, even if youre not ace, even if you do want to have sex someday, like, its fine that you haven't had sex?

maybe if your problem is that theyre trying to police your behavior and shame you for expressing your sexuality, you can say that? instead of resorting to "haha stupid virgin gets no bitches" like my god. do you not hear how fucking regressive that attitude is? i know, i know, youre "joking".

get a better joke

[andromedasummer]

before you go to discourse, before you go to make your hot take about what's just happened with yuki tsunoda, check in with your disabled mutuals who like motor racing. these kinds of slurs pop up way too often in the professional racing scene and its never any easier to stomach, especially when the responses start flooding in. support them if they choose to speak up about this because historically this stuff hasn't gone down very well.

the last time a driver was ableist and many disabled people shared their discomfort and anger, the backlash was directed into inboxes and private dms and was bigoted and often violent. i want to hope that 3 years on things have improved, and the fia investigating this is a step further than what happened in 2021. but i also want to be realistic about how society as a whole feels about discrimination towards disabled people and how that attitude can bleed into things like these in a very ugly way.

[daguerreotyping]

Carte de visite of a debonair French chasseur fetchingly bedecked in frogging, c. 1870

[good-to-drive]

Girls5Eva is the best thing that ever happened to me, actually

[ifindus]

what do you think about nedpan🇳🇱🇯🇵

I haven't really gotten deep into it, but from what I've seen going around I really like it! I think they are a good pairing with a lot of potential regarding the combination of their personalities, and it's no secret that I have a weakness from anything based on historical events 😅✨

[goldenstarprincesses]

In the scope of becoming and staying world powers:

Arthur was tactical in ever decision he made. Francis was manipulative.

What makes Alfred so naturally dangerous is that he is a combination of both

[fitzrove]

Crown Prince Rudolf biographers be like

brigitte hamann: Rudolf's foreign policy aims were ambitious, if ultimately unfeasible. At the very least, he tried harder even from his difficult personal and political position to make an impact on the political affairs of the empire, unlike his entitled uncaring cruel bitch mother who never loved him enough

frederick morton: The prince's cerulean orbs glistened with barely held-back crystalline tears as he clutched the pistol in his masculine, well-muscled hand, and he caressed the mouth of the gun like he might a lover's on a gloomy winter morning, impatient, all his potent charms singularly focused on his new, dark goal, one that could only find its fulfillment in the indulgement of his secret desires... erhm no I do not want to fuck him [blushes]

empress zita: I think president Bush had Rudolf killed

greg king and penny wilson: Rudolf did 9/11 what a fucking scumbag [source: judith listowel source: dukeprince heinrich von habsburg twitter acount source: this appeared to me once in a dream]

[sarahowritesostucky]

Rating: Explicit

Pairing: Steve Rogers x black female reader

Tags: Historical AU, Old West, Bounty hunter!Steve Rogers, slavery, poc!reader, blackmail, dubcon, soft!dark! love interest, prostitution, period-typical attitudes, racism

Summary: You're just trying to keep your head down until you can scrape together enough money to join a wagon train out west. But a wrench is thrown into your plans when a roughshod rider comes through town and sets his sights on you.

Part I "This ain't a poor house, it's a whore house."

Part II "For Fifty Cents More"

Part III "Ain't a sportin' girl at all"

[butchsaint]

i might fuck around and become a paramedic

[horsegirlhob]

Honestly the worst thing about being raised by and around professors is that I can't really do the whole students bitching about professors thing even when I mostly agree with it, because my whole life I have been hearing the professor's side of the story. Every time someone talks about how ridiculous mandatory attendance or participation is there's a part of me that starts loudly protesting about how actually being in class is really important for learning, and it must be so hugely frustrating for the professor when students just don't show up to your class half the time and then when they do show up they're playing sudoku on their computer.

[heavenlymorals]

Why are you always trying to paint Arthur as a misogynist? When he clearly isn't??? I like your posts by why do you hyper fixate on stuff like that?

Hello anon and thanks for the ask.

Well, quite simply, I "paint" Arthur as someone who actively believes in and enforces gender roles because he does so in the game. It's a part of his writing and his character. The canon Arthur is NOTHING like how the fandom here on Tumblr portrays him as. That's also a reason why I started making these posts because I honestly hate when fanon becomes the accepted truth of characters and not the actual canon. It happens all the time.

I'm a very pragmatic person and this will show in my posts. I don't care about what characters COULD be and I focus more on what they ACTUALLY are. That's why my retrospective posts are usually looked at through a psychological, sociological, cultural, feminist, and/or literary point of view. I look at characters and learn things about them through their actions and words, as well as the time period that they are a part of. I do not care at all about making characters seem morally better, especially when it comes to historical attitudes because those historical attitudes aren't as historical as we make them out to be.

They still affect us every single day and only recently have we started pushing back- that's also not mentioning cultures where these attitudes are STILL encouraged, which then changes the way people think. Understanding historical attitudes allows us to understand not only our own cultures better, but people as well and why they do the things they do.

Now let's talk about Arthur. Arthur is a man born in 1863. Women couldn't even get a credit card by themselves without a man till 1974. To put it quite simply, he lived in a time era where women had almost 0 rights and those women who did succeed in life usually had some sort of male support. People supported this system, both male and female. Did you know that when the suffrage movement began, most American women didn't give a fuck because they believed that was men's duties, not their own? Point is is that even if Arthur is a lot more lenient regarding this stuff, he still actively believes in it because of how pungent it was in the society he lived in.

The first mission we have with the female gang members is heading to Valentine. The first thing he says to them is whether Miss Grimshaw could spare them from their domestic chores, already showing that in the gang, the girls' main duty is the domestic work and that Arthur supports this. Later in that mission, when he chases down Jimmy Brooks, he puts Uncle in charge of bringing them back home, even though he is an old ass man and they are three young, healthy, and capable women. In one mission, you got two examples of Arthur being an active encourager of gender roles.

And then there is Sadie- when she expresses her frustration over the work she has to do, he tries to shut her down. When she gets her pants, he mocks her: "You get a pair of pants and all of a sudden you think you're Landon Ricketts?" When she asks Dutch when she can go robbing with them, both him and Dutch laugh her off. When they bust John out of prison, he does it with her cuz literally no one else would help him and when they escape on the boat, he gets visibly annoyed that she doesn't take his hand. There are even more examples of things like this when he antagonizes her, but that's just the main game.

And there is the antagonizations of women performers. "Women shouldn't be doing this." "Go make someone some supper." "Go back to the kitchen." "This ain't ladylike." I'm sorry, but these need no explanations. His antagonize lines are just as canon as his greet lines and the fact that he says stuff like that shows that he believes in gender roles. It's an active part of his belief system.

There are so many more examples of this and the majority of them are subtle but I come from a culture that still treats its women like the 1800s treated theirs so when I ever pick up on these things, it's cuz I've lived it before.

And my final point- this is a historical game. Rockstar made sure to be as accurate as they can in regards to the time period- so characters not only react to historical attitudes but they are a part of it as well. Same goes for Arthur. He's a historical character with a historical background and historical attitudes- and that comes with the good, like chivalry, and the bad, sexism. You shouldn't play a game like RDR if you're expecting characters to feel modern in their thought processes.

Thank you and have a great day.

[icarusbetide]

pov: you are a sea captain being reprimanded by a 15 year old alexander hamilton for bringing him skinny half-dead mules

part 2 of how hamilton was and looked way too young to be doing the shit he was doing: the vine kid was 13-ish here, so in my head he's exactly what hamilton when he's running cruger's business would've looked like.

Reflect continually on the unfortunate voyage you have just made and endeavour to make up for the considerable loss therefrom accruing to your owners.

The letter to poor Captain William Newton

[prince-liest]

popping in real quick to say I really love your "I love her/love her not" chapters! as much as I enjoy Al's antagonism with characters like Vox and Lucifer, his friendships with women in the series are sooo interesting to me. it's nice to see your take on how he (and Mimzy!) both struggle with their preconceptions of their time period and heteronormativity in general

Aw, thank you so much! Yeah, part of the reason I really wish we got more character-building episodes is that with Alastor in particular we see a lot of hints of him wildly different approaches to his relationships depending on who they're with, and I think that while he's definitely often antagonistic as hell in his relationships with men, he specifically is much less so with most of the women in his un-life. I remember watching Dad Beat Dad and going, "Wow, I can't believe Alastor is the first person we've seen set a good example for drawing a normal and healthy relationship boundary..." when he asked Mimzy to leave.

Like, compare how he snapped at Husk, who was actively trying to look out for him, for just saying a smarmy thing that Alastor is touchy about, vs. all the shit Mimzy did and the damage she knowingly caused... only for Alastor to not only, with full and stated understanding of her intentions and their consequences, still let her use him for her own protection, but then to be visibly pissed off and still clearly center himself and make the deliberate choice to be polite and honestly kind of kind in how he asks her to please head out.

And she's still fucking upset about it! The way Mimzy behaves in turn during that entire interaction is telling as well, because it's really obvious to me that it's not just her being a bitch for the hell of it. She very clearly did not expect him to draw that boundary and found him doing so shocking in a way that she took personally - and why wouldn't she? He's apparently been actively enabling her to rely on him in this way for literally their entire relationship. "But you love taking care of me!" is not a line that feels to me like she's putting words in his mouth, it really feels like that's what he's purposefully led her to believe, because 1) she's his dear friend and 2) he enjoys being a powerful individual that people rely on.

Anyway. That turned into a whole tangent, hahaha. I'm glad you're enjoying it! I desperately want to see Alastor interact with people he genuinely considers his friends more often, and I want to see how it compares to how he interacts with the people he's growing to care about a lot less willingly.

[daguerreotyping]

Digitally enhanced daguerreotype of a handsome man, c. 1850

[chiropteracupola]

i write regular and reasonable sharpe fic.