I'm dropping (a bit old) john laurens yap here. Please correct anything you must + provide the source.
and we know very limited about John but whatever !!
Laurens was described by Hamilton to have honey blonde hair when clean. His hair was generally said to be light brown/blonde. As seen on portraits, he had soft features, blue eyes, and a big nose. He was described to be very handsome, and IMO I agree!! We don't know exactly how tall he was, but he was most likely over 6 feet. One day before Laurens' 15th birthday, his father wrote to James Grant; ''my Little Jack, now as big as I am...'' (Jack being John's nickname). We don't know Henry Laurens' height, but if he was as tall as Henry at 15, he certainly grew to be taller. In 1778, Henry wrote to John ''A Taylor has cut off as much of your Scarlet as will make he says a Wascoat for 6 feet 3 inches...'' which suggests that John could have been 6'3. It's not clear what exactly Henry means in the letter but as said, John was probably over 6 feet. Laurens was one of the strongest abolitionists of the time despite coming from one of the bigger slave plantations and growing up where slavery was normal. John could speak English, French, Italian, Greek, Spanish and Latin. We know that he was fluent in English and French but we don't know about his fluency in the other languages.
Laurens got Martha Manning pregnant and ended up marrying her out of pity (supposedly to protect her reputation too and to keep illegitimacy of their child.) He wrote to his uncle ''...Pity has obliged me to marry...'', When Laurens left for war, he left his pregnant wife in another country. When John was chosen by congress to be a special minister to France and had him travel there, Martha traveled with their daughter to reconnect with him upon hearing about his arrival in France. But John supposedly made no effort whatsoever to visit them; he completed his mission and went back to America. Martha later died during the trip and their daughter, Frances, was sent to live with her aunt.
John Laurens is believed to have been gay... The man didn't seem to express any attraction towards women, though I think his sexist beliefs played a role in this, as well as his lack of effort to humble his wife. His letters to Alexander Hamilton, and Francis Kinloch also suggest he had an eye for men... ESPECIALLY Kinloch's and his correspondence.
Henry Laurens wrote ''Master Jack is too closely wedded to his studies to think about any of the Miss Nanny's''. But it's important to note that he was a teenager at that time and not every teen develops those feelings at the same time. But I would imagine that since he was as tall as his father at 15, he was early in puberty... Romantic/sexual feelings usually come with puberty, but what do we know? Anyways. John expressed a lot of sexist opinions, even towards his own sisters, which can be read in letters. Most men were sexist, but John seemed to be more ''strict'' on the subject... This definitely plays a part in his supposed ''homosexuality''.
John hid the fact that he had a wife and child from Hamilton for nearly two years. Why? The reason is unknown. It's only up to debate. My guess is that he just wanted to try to ''forget'' them in some way, seeing as he literally left them... Why would you bring up that you have a family that you abandoned? But maybe it was because he never found the right time to tell him, or was it to get a better chance with Hamilton? We will never know, sadly. But what we DO know, is that Laurens referred to his wife as ''dear girl'', and Hamilton, and supposedly ONLY Hamilton, as ''Dear boy''. We know for a fact that Hamilton was close to Laurens and was special to him, but why did he call his wife that? Out of pity? He didn't necessarily show any real attraction towards her... But whatever the reason is, it's kinda cute.
We know that Henry Laurens was emotionally manipulative of John, which is like read in letters... So there is no denying that, really. BUT John was close to his father, attachment issues tsk, tsk tsk... But jokes aside, when John told his father that he wasn't super interested in becoming a lawyer or merchant like his father wanted, Henry wrote this to his brother; ''if he enters upon the plan of Life which he Seemed to pant for when he wrote the 5th. July, I Shall give him up for lost & he will very Soon reproach himSelf for his want of Duty & affection towards me, for abandoning his Brothers & Sisters, for disregarding the Council of his Uncle, & for his deficiency of common understanding, in making Such a choice_ if these reflections prevail not over him, nothing will_ he must have his own way & I must be content with the remembrance, that I had a Son.'' Basically, Henry said he would disown John if he pursued his interests in medicine. So, John ended up becoming a lawyer/statesman to please his father. There are more examples of John trying to please his father, but let's not take that now... HOWEVER, after John had died, Henry wrote of him in response to John Adams' letter; ''Thank God I had a Son who dared to die in defence of his Country'' ... We get a lot of mixed signals from Henry... Though I do believe he loved him, at least somewhat.., even if he was controlling/manipulative. Henry wasn't too nice to his other children either, but since this is about John I'm not gonna talk about that.
John's brother James died at the age of 9-10 (1765-1775)
James, or Jemmy, was supposedly scaling the outside of their house and tried to jump to the landing outside of John’s window but fell. He received life threatening injuries and cracked his skull. The doctors had figured that the injuries were too severe to save him and John described it to his uncle four days later; "At some Intervals he had his senses, so far as to be able to answer single Questions, to beckon to me, and to form his Lips to kiss me, but for the most part he was delirious, and frequently unable to articulate. Puking, Convulsions never very violent, and latterly so gentle as scarcely to be perceived, or deserve the Name, ensued, and Nature yielded."
Since John was supposed to watch over James during this time, John felt guilty and as if it was his fault. James' death was very difficult for John, and it weighed heavily on him.
Henry did little to alleviate those feelings of guilt, which suggests that he either didn't care enough, or that a part of him also blamed John. (I am not saying he 100% did, but it would not be surprising if he so did, considering how he treated John.)
He could also have been in too much grief to console John... Which, as said, would not be too surprising considering his treatment of John. But nevertheless, he did not do much to help John and John's guilt.
TW: mentions of suicide.
It is highly speculated that John was suicidal. We have a couple of written exchanges where John discusses suicide with friends and family. In February 1774, John wrote to Henry Laurens about two men who had attempted suicide. We don't have the whole letter, but here is a part of Henry's response; ''...But, my Dear Son, I trust that your opinion on that Question is So firm, that you are armed with Such irrefragable proofs of the Impiety as well as Cowardice of Self Murther, as puts you out of danger of being made a Convert to Error...'' (Not gonna put all of it). Another time, when John was a prisoner of war and didn't handle imprisonment well, Hamilton wrote to John ''For your own sake, for my sake, for the public sake, I shall pray for the success of the attempt (of being exchanged) you mention; that you may have it in your power to act with us. But if you should be disappointed, bear it like a man; have recourse, neither to the dagger, nor to the poisoned bowl, nor to the rope.'' It is clear that Hamilton (and Henry, despite how he treated John) were worried about John's thoughts of suicide. John's last letter to Hamilton was probably one of the, if not the, most emotional. He wrote ''Adieu, my dear friend; while circumstances place so great distance between us, I entreat you not to withdraw the consolation of your letters. You know the unalterable sentiments of your affectionate Laurens.'' John died about a month later. On the day of his death, John and his men surprised a troop of British soldiers that outnumbered them. Instead of retreating, John chose to immediately attack. He did not really actively end his own life, though it seems as if it was planned or that he was trying. Which is just sad. Also, it's not sure that Hamilton's last letter to Laurens ever got to him before he died. (In that letter he tells John to quit his sword and come to congress with Hamilton)
I don't know what else to add actually but here you have it!! This is as accurate as I can get it, especially cause it's like mostly based on letters... Uhm. But yay!
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darlin's unempowered friend hcs :3 also masc darlin oc mentioned A LOT! (who's surprised)
his name is trevor o'connor. he's half korean (mom's side) and was born in northern ireland, belfast specifically, before moving to america around the same time that julius (darlin) came to Dahlia, so they quickly became friends because they were both new and had no clue what to do with themselves
he moved away because his mom abandoned him and his dad and his dad, tiernan, didn't really know what to do with himself and moved to america where his brother was. (tiernan is a triplet!) his dad eventually remarried to charlotte and is now extremely happy. trevor loves char!! he has younger siblings from her (that sounds weird? idk how else to word it) and she's overall just one of those mothers that radiate sunshine but does NOT play abt her kids
julius has a bunch of nicknames for him. It went from Trevor to Trev to T to TT (Tee-tee) then titty then Mr. Titty. It's like when you give your dog a nickname and then it escalates into something completely different
neither of these dudes can walk straight. widawee. like they bump into each other or walk in front of each other and get mad like "WATCH WHERE YOU'RE FUCKING GOING, WHAT ARE YOU DOING??"
they were both losers... they were both pretty boys, but losers. like if they were extroverts and didn't have interests that were considered "weird" then they probably would've been more popular in school
before moving to america, trevor forgot to break up with the girl he was dating so it looked like he literally just disappeared. one time during lunch at school trevor did a big ol sigh like "SIGHH.... man i miss my gf.." and julius was like WHAT r u even talking about......
one time he buzzed and bleached his hair and julius called him eminem for a week and a half before trevor got mad and made julius dye it silver, and when it grew out he had those like tiny little spikes with dark roots and he thought he was the SHIT (he was.)
allergic to pineapple
dyslexic
his favourite number is 8. julius' is 7.
after being attacked by quinn, trevor never blamed julius
julius tried to cook for him when he got discharged from the hospital and trevor was like "what... even is this.."
he didn't eat it. julius ordered him something and ate his creation himself cus he hates wasting food
monster lover, julius is a redbull lover
trevor is also a WHORE for a dr. pepper
one time when they were 14, they tried feeding a stray dog which lead to julius being bitten HARDDD like this dog held on for dear life. afterwards, they hopped on trevor's bike and went to marie's. halfway there trevor asked if julius was okay and julius was just like "are you serious."
they always argue over shit like soccer vs football, chips vs fries, scone vs biscuit, etc. all julius can say to defend himself is "im not from this country."
once he was caught in a lie and trevor replied with "i have an accent, you don't know what i said."
do not have a srs talk around these two. they'll make eye contact and lose their shit
julius wanted to start a band and trevor was like dude we have literally no friends what are you talking about
they used to cuddle platonically all the time, especially when all the quinn shit was going on
trevor has horrendous handwriting. julius makes fun of him when his own handwriting isnt any better, but he defends himself by saying you can read it and that's all that matters
julius : i made u a friendship bracelet :3
trev; thats gay
julius: ok fuck u damn give me it back
trev: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO PLEAAAAAAAAAASE
trevor has a ginger little cat with one eye who's called pearce
one time julius and trev's apartment building caught on fire cus of shitty wiring and julius had to sit outside in just baggy sweatpants and trevor was sitting out there on the curb in just underwear and a pair of slippers cus it was like 2am
julius: ur so annoyi-
trevor: UR APARTMENT BURNED DOWN!!!!!
even tho it was his apartment too and they literally lose half their shit to the fire
trevor's little sister made him mad one time and he told her the tooth fairy wasn't real
they worked together for a while and both got fired cus they both have anger issues and were also so unserious. like they'd end up on the floor with laughter mid shift.
he hated david for a long ass time. he'd refer to him as bitch boy. he loved asher tho and thought milo was a little too intimidated for a short guy (sassy man apocalypse.)
he has an eyebrow piercing and a few small tattoos, he's scared of needles but wanted to look cool
he didn't know about magic until he got attacked by quinn and was about to pass out from blood loss and he fully thought it was a hallucination. then julius came to him in the hospital like you'll never believe this...
EVER SINCE THEN, julius has no peace.
werewolf reaction pics. dog jokes. julius' birthday gift after trev found out was a squaky toy and on halloween he dressed up as the most cliche werewolf ever and said he was julius. (creds to aster). he used to call it transforming instead of shifting and julius would be like THATS NOT WHAT ITS CALLEDDDDDDDDDDDDD.
"man, im bored... wanna go play fetch?" "ur hairs getting long... i'll take u to the dog groomers." "do u want a pedigree??"
THIS IS KINDA WHAT TREV LOOKS LIKE!! (awooga booga *hearts pop out of my eyes and my tongue drops out of my mouth and rolls across the grounf like a red carpet)
also this pic (ik it doesn't look like my darlin oc or Trev) is so them
DAMN CAN I YAP!!!
tags - (i lurv u guys)
@achios @aurorialwolf @infinitelovewiithoutfulfilmentt @tgckceo @astrodude-87 @krashkitty @cozy-collins @professionallyyappinabtangst @porters-fangs @n0r
cus u guys eat up my hcs.
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Misunderstanding
Tommy x Evan “Buck”
A/n: i write a lot of Tommy and Buck. Imma write something different. Eventually.
Summary: Its Bucks off day and he decided he was going to bake some cookies and bring them to Tommy at work. When he arrives he spots Tommy talking to someone hes never seen before. Hes about to walk over to his boyfriend when the man kisses Tommy. Buck stops and turns around walking away before seeing or hearing Tommys reaction.
————
~Bucks POV~
I feel Tommys lips on mine as he gives me a goodbye kiss. “See you later.” He whispers. I hear the bedroom door click shut and drift back into sleeping.
When i woke up i made me some oatmeal and watched an episode of The Bachelor. When i was done i was bored. Eddie went down to Texas to vist with Christopher. I’m glad the two are making mends, i know it hurt Eddie when Chris left to live with his grandparents in Texas.
Maddie and Chim are taking a short trip to Long Beach. And Hen and Karin are dealing with the foster people to get Nia. So im out of options when it comes to hanging out with someone.
I decided im going to bake some cookies for Tommy and his station, so i get to work. I’m going to make a variety and an allergy free batch.
Once i finished i put the cookies in some boxes and loaded them into my jeep. I didnt text Tommy that i was coming because i want it to be a surprise.
When i arrived i parked my jeep and grabbed the boxes of cookies with a big smile on my face. I walked into the station and scanned the area looking for Tommy.
“Looking for Tommy?” Someone asks. “Yes.” I answer. Everyone here knows who i am. “Hes upstairs in the kitchen.” The person says. “Thanks.” I smile and make my way up the stairs.
When i get to the top i turn the corner and see Tommy talking to someone i’ve never seen before. Hes tall and skinny but well built, he has short curly blonde hair. I cant tell what color his eyes are but the way he is looking at Tommy is making me uneasy and hes standing really close to Tommy. Tommy is leaning against the counter just keeping conversation.
I was about to say his name when the guy leans forwards giving Tommy a kiss. That was all i needed to see even though thats not what i wanted to see. My heart instantly sank and i turned away and got out of there as fast as i could.
I threw the boxes of cookies in the trunk not caring if they spilled out and drove out of there as fast as I could.
I drove to my apartment because i obviously didnt want to go back to Tommys bouse where i’ve been staying at most of the time anyways.
When i walked in it was kind of cold but it didn’t bother me because i was flamming with anger. I cant believe Tommy kissed another guy. I tried not to cry but it was too hard to hold back. I really thought he was the one, that he wouldnt cheat on me. I guess i was wrong.
——-
~Tommys POV~
Everything was going fine at work, had a few easy calls. We got a new person his name is Kaleb Green, great young kid. Hes been doing really good.
We were in the kitchen just talking about why we wanted to become a firefighter and the craziest calls we have ever been on.
“So is your locker the one with the gay pride flag on it?” He asks me. “Yes?” I answer carefully. I dont think this kid is a homophobe or anything but im alway cautious when it comes to telling people. I have no shame in being a gay man but having such a masculine job some people may see me differently.
“Thats so cool. Another gay firefighter. I’ve never met another one. I dont feel so alone now.” He says. “Oh, well actually…” i was going to tell him about Evan but before i could finish my sentence he leaned forward and kissed me. I definitely was not expecting that.
“Dude! What the hell?!” I shout shoving him off of me. “Sorry. Too far?” He stupidly asks. “Yes way too far! Plus i have a boyfriend. He happens to be a firefighter too.” I snap. “Please dont report me. I really like it here” he begs. “Too late.” I tell him walking out of the kitchen.
I walk downstairs to report him when i see a familiar grey jeep leaving the parking lot pretty fast. I hope that wasnt Evan.
“Hey Kinard, what did Evan bring you?” Steven asks from a far. “Shit” i say under my breath that was Evan and he probably saw what happened in the kitchen because i never saw him.
I was about to ask if i could handle this when a call came through. I had to push down my anger and my worries about what just happened and focus on the call. God i hope its a simple call so it goes by fast.
It was not. It was a warehouse fire and the warehouse contained toxic chemicals so everything we did had to be done carefully and correctly. It took the rest of the shift.
We finally got back to the station at 11pm. I grabbed my bag and headed straight for my truck. “Hey Kinard.” I hear Kaleb call out behind me. “Dont talk to me. You most likely just ended my relationship with Evan and he was the best thing thats ever came into my life.” I snap at him. Which I probably said too much, based off his facial expressions, but i need to talk to Evan tell him what happened and pray that he believes me. “Let me talk to him, then i’ll ask for a new placement.” Kaleb says, “let me fix this.” He adds. “No you are not talking to him and yes find a new placement. Its not going to work for you here.” I tell him throwing my bag in the truck and drove home.
——
When i arrive home i dont see Evans jeep which means hes not here. I dont know why i thought he would be at my house after all. I mean yeah hes been staying here most of his time anyways but this would be the last place he would come after seeing another guy kiss me.
I try calling him and texting him but hes not answering, rightfully so. I drive over to his apartment next. I see his jeep parked in its usual spot so i know hes here.
I knock on his door immediately when i arrive. No response. “Evan its me. Please can we talk?” I ask through the door loud enough he should be able to here me. After a few more moments of knocking and asking nicely I threaten to do a welfare check and kick down his door.
I then heard the sound of locks unlocking and the door opened to a cold apartment and a tall Evan with a tear stained face and a angry blank expression.
“Evan please listen, i didnt kiss him. He kissed me.”i say, this is a lot more nerve racking than i thought. Its so hard not to stutter and to hse the right wording. “I saw you Tommy.” Evans voice cracks, he walks to the other end of the table while im at the other. Hes so close but het so far.
“Evan i would never cheat on you. Please believe me. We were talking and he asked if my locker was the one with the gay pride flag. Next thing i felt his lips on mine and i pushed him away. I swear.” I tell him the whole story but i cant tell if he believes me or not.
How do you convince your partner that you aren’t cheating on them when they saw another guy kiss you? I feel like im losing him and i really dont want to.
——-
~Bucks POV~
I listen to what Tommy is telling me and my brain is telling me not to believe him but my heart is telling me that hes telling the truth. Because Tommy is the first person to ever so me the type of personal affection, how it feels to be loved. Even though we haven’t said it yet we can feel it when we cuddle, when we get intimate, and when we say the same thing at the same time.
But in this case what do i go with my brain or my heart? Part of me wants to just believe him and go back to how things were but the other half wants to kick him out of my apartment and never talk to him again.
“Evan everyone in this situation had a misunderstanding.” Tommy says. “How am I misunderstanding this Tommy?” I ask in anger. “Okay, okah, im sorry. Wrong words here. Kaleb had a misunderstanding with what i said and he didnt let me finish talking before he kissed me. I was literally about to tell him about you when he kissed me.” Tommy explains.
“Thats what they all say.” I mumble under my breath. “Say what?” Tommy asks. “That the other person kissed them.” I answer. “Evan….” Tommy says, he can tell hes losing me.
It was quiet for a few moments as each of us trys to think of something. “I’ll come get my stuff tomorrow.” I say finally breaking the silence. “W-w-w-what?” Tommy stutters. “I said i’ll come get my stuff from your house tomorrow. While your at work so we dont see each other.” I repeat. Evans face goes into panic mode as he runs a frantic hand through his rough hair.
“Evan please. Im telling the truth. Listen Kaleb said he will talk to you. He’ll tell you everything i just said is true.” Tommy says all in one breath trying to convince me. “Please leave Tommy.” I ask. I’ve been hurt by too many people that are supposed to love me to try again and risk getting hurt again and again and again.
“Evan, baby please.” Tommy begs. “Stop. Get out Tommy. Get out before i call the police.” I command. Tommy rubs his chin with his hand as he turns to the door. He looks back at me one more time before he forces himself out the door.
Now im all alone, again. I should just stay single the rest of my life clearly everyone is going to hurt me when i get close to them.
——
The next day i wait intil i know Tommy is going to be at work so i can go get my clothes from over there.
When i arrive i dont see his truck which means he went to work today. I walk up to the door and i go to type in the code to unlock the door when the door opens. I look up and see the guy from yesterday. Kaleb.
I wanted to punch the guy so bad. He messed up the one good thing i had in my life. “Evan, right?” He asks. “So you’re Tommys new side piece huh?” I snarl. “Please let me explain myself. I never ment for any of this to happen. Can we just talk?” He asks stepping aside for me to come in. I roll my eyes and walk into the house.
I took a seat at the island in the kitchen as I listened to Kaleb talk. He basically said that it was his fault that he made the move and he ruined his chance at the firehouse. He said that he’s been transferred to a new one.
“So do you believe Tommy now? That he wouldn’t cheat on you?” Kaleb asks. “He was going to come tell you instantly but we got a call. You know how it is.” “Yeah.” Is all i say. “Well i have to get going. I really hope you can forgive Tommy. He really loves you.” Kaleb says as he lets himself out.
I sat at the kitchen island with my head in my hands thinking about what to do when i saw Tommy standing in the entrance of the kitchen leaning against the wall frame.
His body language was soft and his face was filled with regret. Hearing both sides of the story and that basically Tommy was telling the truth made it a little easier to go with my heart. But still knowing another guy kissed him hurts a little.
——
~Tomms POV~
I stood there and watched Evan as he proceeded what Kaleb told him. I can’t believe i caved and let Kaleb talk to Evan but its the only thing I could think of that could save mine and Evans relationship.
“So its true.” Evan finally says. “Yes.” I say. “A lot of people hurt me in the last Tommy.” He says. “I know. I never wanted to be one of them.” I try to control my voice to keep it steady.
“I know.” Evan says, “it still hurts that another guy kissed you.” He says. “It wont happen again. I swear to you Evan.” I promise him. “I know.” He says, a small smile spread across my face.
I walk towards him keeping an eye on his body language. “So do you forgive me?” I ask when im standing in front of him. I feel like im shaking as i wait for an answer. “Yes.” Evan tilts his head up and makes eye contact with me.
A smile spread my face as i lifted his chin up with my finger and connected my lips to his. God it felt so good to feel his lips against mine again. “What were you bringing me yesterday?” I ask out of curiosity. “Cookies. They are spilled in the back of my jeep.” He answers. “You taste better than cookies.” I say shrugging my shoulders. He smiles at that.
“I missed you so much.” I say against his lips resting my forehead against his. “I missed you too.” He says. I cradle the back of his head with my hand as i take his mouth back into mine.
I have him back and im never letting him go again.
——-
A/n: I hope you enjoyed the story!
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I find it interesting how we’ve never seen Jacaerys show any interest in women. Even in being betrothed to Baela, they act more like cousins than anything. His dance with Helaena was done almost entirely out of spite for Aegon, whom we’ve seen him show more interest in/affection toward as a child than anyone else. Then we have Cregan, whose relationship with Jacaerys in the book is…a whole other story. Jacaerys seemed quite fond of him in the short scene we got in the show too.
i’m gonna make a lot of people angry by saying this but i agree. i don’t think it’s any fault of the actors but jace and baela do not come off as a romantic couple at all. that’s entirely due to how condal & co chose to write them and their lack of scenes that would imply they’re anything other than close family. it’s unfortunate because i’d really like to see them explored more and they’ve already treated baela’s character poorly enough as it is. i highly doubt we’ll even get a kiss between them before jacaerys dies.
it’s obvious i’m a big jacegon shipper and, regardless of whether you view it as platonic/familial or not, the way they acted together as kids and the tension between them during the dinner because of that fallout is undeniable. we haven’t seen jace act the way he did with aegon with anyone else. i think some people downplay how much he looked up to aegon as a child (as they do with all of aegon’s relationships), especially considering it’s the reason why things were so tense between them after aegon very publicly betrayed him in 1x07. i’d argue that “everyone knows. just look at them.” coming from someone he admired so much is one of jace’s biggest reasons for feeling so inadequate his whole life. this got out of hand lmao but YEAH i think it’s interesting how affected jace and aegon are by each other and i do not see it as entirely platonic.
jace and cregan are a whole other story indeed. i’m not much of a jacegan shipper but cregan’s devotion to jace long after his death is interesting to say the least. i never bought into the whole sara snow thing and the absence of her in the show doesn’t bother me since it’s up in the air whether she existed at all and i take everything mushroom says with a grain of salt. i like the ship more as an idea. them seeing themselves in each other, jace finding someone he can be more comfortable with, and them finding a sort of intimacy in that. another instance where the he chemistry between them is pretty apparent and it helps that harry and tom are such good friends outside of the show.
i think there’s a reason why jace is normally written as gay in fanfics where he’s paired with a man, while the other party is usually written as bisexual. i wouldn’t go as far as to say that the showrunners write him that way intentionally because that would be giving too much credit to someone like sara hess who has called hotd “the gayest show on tv” for reasons beyond explanation.
i’ve always seen show jace at least as being more interested in men because that’s what we’ve been given. book jace is another story and harder to pin down. ultimately, i agree with you!
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