#heroic downfall

[unknown-cold]

It is true that Vander here tried to advise her to avoid problems, but unfortunately Vi did not understand this advice at the time.

How could Vi understand it when her whole life was built on fighting?

Vi only knows how to fight. Since she was a kid, she fights to protect her sister and family, then she fights in prison to survive, and when she gets out of prison, she fights again to find her sister. So after everything Vi has been through, it's natural for her to find fighting as the only way to vent her anger and sadness.

Vi is one of the most tragic characters in the show. It is right that there are other characters who have gone through and will go through bad experiences, but Vi is the most suffering and miserable of them in the show.

I really hope her story ends well, because she deserves it.

[birdricks]

getting sooooo emotional abt how like. when rick and bp meet again during the federation stuff its like theyre completely different ppl from who they were when they last saw each other. but it almost makes them become closer instead of driving them apart… until of course their values clash in the worst possible way

[fooltofancy]

the convocation is a fantasy church, to me.

[lonesomedotmp3]

post pilot thoughts on all the characters:

- sayid and kate best characters I loveeee them kate is literally soooooo 😍😍😍😍

- jack is also cool but his whole thing so far is just that he's a Good Guy idk where we're gonna go from here. I like his wrong turn protagonist swag <3 however the buzzcut gives me bad vibes sorry king

- I do Not like the blonde girl who speaks french but I'm trying to do my loving all female characters homework so I can do better in the future 🙏 listening and learning here

- her brother. Isn't he the one who said sayid blew up the plane. he should die. if it wasn't him who said that maybe he should try not also having blonde hair and a beard like half these fuckin guys (two other guys. but still)

- guy with the gun BOOO CORNY LAMEEEEE leave kate the fuck alone...

- EMILYYYY my beautiful beloved emily she slayed... I hope the baby's ok this isn't yellowjackets I'd be soooooo sad if she lost that baby :( she's got that lovely young woman swagger!!!

- the guy who can't stand blood also seems cool so far except for fumbling the fucking bag at the end there...

- I like walt! he is for real having a rough fucking month... his dad needs to get his shit together tbh

ok that's it so far we'll see how my opinions change as things go on <3

[kingocats]

I do think it’s strange that Maedhros of all people is a character that gets woobified so hard because the MOST compelling thing about him isn’t his heroism, it’s the fact that he was heroic and the BECAME A VILLAIN. I’m not even going to say became an anti hero because I don’t think that’s accurate, I mean he became a straight up villain. Destroying what was basically a refugee camp, attacking the army fighting against morgoth when half of his identity post thangorodrim was once based around fighting Morgoth. I’m not the first person to mention the irony of the fact that maedhros is the only person to ever escape Angband without being in thrall to Morgoth, and then years later his actions are absolutely aiding morgoths cause rather than the cause of the remaining Noldor.

And that is what sets this character apart. His downfall. Part of that downfall is his earlier heroism but what makes this character so well written in the first place is that the seeds of that downfall start early at Alqualonde. It’s tragic but it isn’t surprising.

I changing this character around so that somehow his later actions are excusable or against his will or that deep down he has actually been a hero this whole time is very strange because if that’s the case then how is he any different than fingon or turgon or thingol? In fact if that’s the case then he’s more boring than these characters because he’s not nearly as outwardly noble.

He becomes a villain and as the shadows of that villainy were apparent early on, the shadow of his heroism is still apparent later on as well and that’s the tragedy. He could have turned around at any point, he could have still saved himself. But he doesn’t and it’s horribly tragic and as a story, it’s absolutely brilliant character work.

[genericpuff]

also love how you described aphrodite as a war goddess in your family tree chart!!!

ahh thank you! I know it's very divisive as to whether or not Aphrodite is a war goddess, much of the sources on Aphrodite Areia seem to be predominantly linked to the Spartans, whereas Hellenism worshipped her primarily for love, sex, and fertility, which is what she's widely attributed to today while her connections to war have fallen to the wayside.

But I personally love the duality of her being a goddess of both love and war, as both come from places of deep desire that are often intersectional - many men have gone to war and died in the name of love, and many more still have experienced the pain that love can bring. In that way, though you could argue that she may not have been specifically worshipped as a war goddess such as Athena or Ares, you can't really separate war from what Aphrodite truly represents - desire.

I know by default many people will say that Aphrodite is the "greatest goddess" simply because of the superstition that comes from worshipping anyone else more than her, but what makes her so powerful and respected is love itself, an emotion and state of being so pure, so twisted, so painfully human, so universal regardless of the context in which it's being experienced that it can be used as any amount of justification for both the greatest heroics and the cruelest betrayals. Love is a paradox, simultaneously worth living for and worth dying for, an overwhelming joy for another being that can be felt instantly but just as quickly turn foul. Paris was gifted the love of Helen, which initiated a ten year long war on Troy; Odysseus persevered for 20 years in the name of love, sacrificed six of his own men for love; Orpheus defied death for love, and brought about his own downfall in love; Hades abducted his bride out of love, inevitably dooming the Earth to death and decay for half the year at the hands of a loving mother grieving for her lost daughter.

Even when Aphrodite isn't physically present in a story, she is there in the actions of a story's characters made out of love and desire, and she is as inevitable as the Fates and the passage of time. Aphrodite is a goddess of love and war because love is war, and so to try and separate her from war feels like a severe underestimation of the power she possesses over mankind more so than any other god or goddess. Though you could argue her domain over human emotion and their consequential actions limits her in her influences unlike that of the primordials or Titans, without man to worship them or perceive them or tell stories of them, then what is left of gods? Unrequited love and desire.

[orcusnoir]

One of the most popular headcanons in the fandom is Malon dotes on the Chain like they're a part of her own family, right?

Obviously, there's Twilight, her and Time's descendant, and potentially Wild (would be an interesting familial pattern. The ancestor mentors the descendant).

But outside of Twilight, the others are just strangers who just happen to have the same heroic spirit as her beloved Link.

Or so she, and by extension you, would think.

Enter Legend. Yes, I'm serious.

Legend is Time's other direct successor from the timeline where he died, and unlike Wind, Legend’s Hyrule was never flooded.

But what does this have to do with Malon?

Well, Legend owns an apple orchard. A large plot of land out of the way with a decently sized house. It wasn't always his, the orchard was once owned by his uncle.

His uncle Aflon.

Malon, Talon, Aflon.

It's the same naming style.

Legend is a Lon, either a direct descendant of Malon and someone else (my bet is Raven, Time's Downfall Timeline doppelganger) or a cousin.

Lon Lon Ranch, after Ganondorf's takeover and eventual sealing, became Lon Lon Orchard, and the rest is history. Aflon dies, Legend takes over, and then Ravio invades his home.

[wheeboo]

RANIAAAA hru? I hope you're well💗

I have a soft thought on superman!mingyu. When you first started dating, he's just so happy and excited he forgets his own strength sometimes.

He holds the door open for you? There's a dent in his car door. He feeds u the first bite of his cooking? Best believe the spoon is bent from how nervous he is. He wants to help out dusting and vacuuming? He accidentally lifts the couch to high it knocks out your lightbullb.

He's always so apologetic and shy about it, sometimes he gets insecure and scared that even with the best of his intentions he might accidentally get you hurt. It could be thaat at a point it bothers him so much that he's teary eyed. Cause how can he be this reliable hero but also risk hurting you? But you just shake your head and kiss his pout away because when it comes to touching you.. he's always gentle.

(sure sometimes you gasp when you dont see each other for a while or his adrenaline is pumping from a recent rescue that he speeds into your arms.)

But after the first few times, Mingyu won't lunge forward for a hug, instead he opens his arms so you come to him and he'll gently cradle you. He's softer and slower and intentional when he reaches for you. Your cheeks hurt from smiling so much when he's carefully picking off an eyelash from your cheekbone. His fingers are rough from callouses but it reminds you of who he is and why he had to work so hard. So you brush your lips against his palms and just embrace him.

Idk, i feel like theres always going to be this juxtaposition of being a reliable and good super hero with abilities that can hurt others or attract others to hurt you. 🤧But he really does try and thats all that matters to you💗

Hiii TOMO !!! and i've been doing fineee how have u been lovely 🫶🫶

STOPP you're so right!!! i've already mentioned how he would totally underestimate his super strength abilities and overall just being this goofball in a muscular man's body yk 😓

there will for sure be lil dents and cracks in both of your homes from his clumsy shenanigans 😭😭 STOP THE SPOON BEING BENT i could just imagine the food falling off the spoon when he's trying to feed you and he gets all shy abt it HAHA

he would definitely be so shy and apologetic abt it :(( the thought of hurting you hurts him, makes his poor lil heart ache if that happens. there are definitely instances throughout the relationship where he believed his heroic identity and obvious inhuman abilities would be the downfall of your relationship, yet it's so hard to imagine a life without you in it, and the kiss you leave to his lips after he spills that to you makes him nearly forget all about it. so that's why he's always cautious when it comes to you, always tries to let you do the first move in initiating affection even though he wants to do that too. he would be so so sweet, gentle, and soft whenever he's admiring you in more intimate situations 🥺

sometimes he may accidentally squeeze you a lil too hard or even picking you up by surprise while he's flying back home 😔

but he for sure makes mental notes about it. would place a nervous hand at your hips if he wants to backhug you, open his arms for you to fall into his embrace after noticing you've had a hard day at work, and overall just make you feel loved and cherished. and whenever the comfort and protection of his arms swallow you whole, you can't help but admire him too--over the small cut you notice at his lips from a very difficult battle that would fade away in time, the callouses at the tip of his fingers, while listening the sound of his steady heartbeat in your ear <3

there definitely is a big juxtaposition with being a superhero with the ability to hurt others too :(( but like you said... he tries because he loves you and has so much love to give, and that's all that matters 🥺

[comicaurora]

Just finished rewatching first avenger and was kinda thinking about some of the detail diatribes. In the most recent, you said something about marvel failing to give Cap a real purpose in recent media, and now I can't help but think what could be a plausible motive. At some point I started thinking about superman and how marvel and DC have a tendency to parallel, and I was wondering if you think maybe Cap is Marvel's superman equivalent, in that he sets the bar? As a symbol of hope in a sense?

I'd say that's accurate. Captain America is a paragon with a capital P, and the best versions of him play that to the hilt. He won't just always do the right thing, he'll always find a way to do the most right thing. What he brings to the table isn't military experience or tactics, although on a basic power level that is most of what he can contribute to a fight - he brings an unshakeable moral compass and a clarity that cuts through the noise.

I think his portrayal in Earth's Mightiest Heroes does a very good job of getting that across. It's explicit that Cap is the team leader despite being the most underpowered fighter because he's just that good.

And it's not just lip service. Cap works as a leader because the Avengers trust him to lead them right - something that everyone else is too volatile or self-motivated to handle. For instance, Cap is one of the only people the Hulk unconditionally trusts, because Cap cuts through 100% of the bullshit around him and reads him like a book.

There are episodes where Cap gets depowered, weakened, captured, etc - none of it slows him down or makes him unable to contribute to the story. It's very carefully written to prove that the serum didn't make him Captain America, and its super-strength are not what he brings to the table, even if it does help him a lot.

Cap is characterized as a living legend, with all that entails - not a mythological hero with all their atrocities and downfalls, but an inspiration that sets a nearly impossible standard. He's a legendary hero, a paragon of goodness and nobility. He doesn't compromise his morals, he doesn't leave people behind, he will always choose the most heroic course of action no matter what it costs him. He's the definition of "hero" and all the heroes he inspired are constantly aware of how much he really does embody that legend.

The MCU doesn't know what to do with him because they're torn between "Iron Man has to be the most coolest specialest guy" and "the Avengers only exist onscreen together for five movies and they spend four of them breaking up" and there is absolutely no way to do Cap justice in that environment. I think Winter Soldier comes the closest, but of course we still only see Cap leading the B-team. If the MCU can't understand why it needs heroes, there's no way it'll understand why they need the hero.

[toweringclam]

From what I've seen, part of the hatred of the plot twist comes from how people have built up that final battle of the Shattering. Everyone assumed it must be something big and important. Like there was some grand ideological struggle at play between Radahn and Malenia. As such, they projected their own feelings and beliefs onto it. And because of the hell world we live in, it became a front for the gender war.

Radahn came to represent everything masculine in the eyes of certain people. Nevermind that he was a fundamentally nurturing character rather than just Chad Beefthrust. And his masculinity was interpreted positively by some and negatively by others. Here, he was an overgrown bully abusing his poor little horse, who needed to be taken down a peg. There, he was a gigachad who was better than everyone else at everything and only "lost" to a cheap shot while he was holding back.

At the same time, Malenia was built up as an icon of girl boss womanhood, overcoming gender and disability to stand toe to toe with The Man. Nevermind that she always was a passive character following the will of others. Her battle with Radahn was either seen as a doomed yet noble fight against the symbol of all oppression or a delusional female who didn't know her place getting rightfully smacked down by the coolest guy ever.

None of these images were true, but people separated themselves into camps anyway. One side was Right and the other was Wrong.

But you forgot about George RR Martin's influence, and no I don't mean the incest (as the saying goes, "but you fuck one goat..."). Martin likes to skewer the heroic myths. The last battle of the Shattering was always going to be a letdown. It was never going to be a heroic struggle between two warriors of conflicting ideologies. There was never going to be a clear-cut villain.

Instead, it's the story of a loyal and honorable warrior following bad orders from a child lord, carrying out those orders even if it means death. You have another warrior stuck in the past and trying to live up to the glory of his forebears (with reasonable success), but failing to realize that he has already written his downfall by an act of misplaced kindness. And between them was said child lord, a truly brilliant prodigy who, for all his wisdom, was still fundamentally a child, no matter how those around him treated him like an adult.

By the way, to everyone complaining about pandering to reddit: they hate it too, because it cucks their favorite gigachad. Y'all have more in common than you think.

Pictures unrelated.

[lady-quen]

Numen, "Love" of Jormag, the scion of Ice. Also known as "The One Who Opens the Door". (He/They)

I don't have their norn design (nor name) yet, but imagine the most innocent blonde boy of short stature with striking blue eyes and the softest smile :) Character backstory below cut! Pspspspsing at all angst hound Commanders out there!!

An orphan rescued from an abandoned village in the Deep Shiverpeaks. Though losing entire settlements to the savage Sons of Svanir was a common occurence, there were no signs of attack, no blood, no slaughter, it just seemed like the inhabitants simply got up and left merely moments before a norn patrol arrived to rest at the local inn. Doors and windows were open, rendering interiors freezing.

The child, naturally, had no known name and was of an unsettlingly pale complexion. He was taken in by the warriors and brought to Hoelbrak, where he grew up more or less normally.

Though he did fit in, he was frail and unfit to pursue his legend, or even be a hunter, despite clearly wanting to. Instead, he was an elementalist with the rare affinity for ice, something the elders theorized to be a result of the near death experience in his infancy.

The boy joins the Commander's party relatively early on, perhaps as an adoptive younger sibling/childhood friend to Braham, and makes himself useful with his unique magic. It's during S3 that things begin to get weird, with Jormag stirring from slumber leading the young man to run off as though following a silent call, before eventually returning seemingly with no memory of whatever happened.

During IBS, he starts acting even weirder, with people mysteriously going missing when left alone with him, as though spirited away. The Commander and Braham confront him, wishing to get to the bottom of what's happening to their friend, only for the reveal to happen.

He was never a norn, but the shapeshifter Numen, the One Who Opens the Door. Every cycle this happens, the scion's memory is wiped and they're found and taken in by the living races, they come to be loved, grow into an identity, only for that love to become everyone's downfall. In Jormag's own words,

"You'll sleep now, and be their child. But you will always wake, and be my child first."

The character could go a traditional villainous betrayal route or (maybe preferably) an "I never wanted this but I can't refuse my creator" tragic route. Two personalities fighting inside, the servant of the Ice Dragon and the personality developed during his time in Hoelbrak and then, with the party. But most importantly, the Commander has to make a choice between saving many people via slaying Numen during a Dragon Response mission or trying to save him, in whatever way they might devise.

Naturally, if they do slay him, Jormag's only got one thing to say: "I see you're more than willing to discard love... if it only aligns with your heroic ideals. Weighing lives on a scale when patience cannot be afforded. Well, no matter. Raven taught you well. I wonder just how easily you could do the same to Aurene?"

"Tell me, o Commander of Tyria, what's worth more to you? The world, or her?"

[novlr]

Types of Character Arcs

Just like there are various flavours of ice cream to satisfy our taste buds, there are different types of character arcs to captivate readers’ imaginations.

Transformational Arc: A character undergoes a profound transformation throughout the story. This transformational arc takes them on a journey of personal growth, where they evolve, learn from their experiences, and undergo significant change. Think Frodo Baggins from The Lord of the Rings, who starts as an ordinary hobbit and becomes a heroic figure, or Cinderella, who goes from being a mistreated servant to a princess.

Flat or Static Arc: Not all character arcs involve drastic change or growth. In a flat or static arc, the character remains relatively unchanged throughout the story. Instead of personal transformation, these characters serve as a stabilizing force or a moral compass within the narrative. They maintain their core values, beliefs, or traits, providing stability and guidance for others. Sherlock Holmes is a prime example of a character with a flat arc. His brilliant deductive reasoning and logical nature remain consistent, while the world around him evolves.

Positive Change Arc: In a positive change arc, a character starts with flaws, struggles, or a particular mindset, but over the course of the story, they experience personal growth and positive transformation. They learn valuable lessons, overcome obstacles, and develop into a better version of themselves. This arc is often associated with themes of redemption, self-discovery, and the triumph of the human spirit. Characters like Ebenezer Scrooge from A Christmas Carol or Katniss Everdeen from The Hunger Games exemplify positive change arcs.

Negative Change Arc: Contrasting the positive change arc, the negative change arc delves into the descent or downfall of a character. It explores the moral decline, corruption, or internal conflicts that lead the character astray. This arc can be dark and intense, showcasing the destructive power of choices or external influences. Characters like Macbeth from Shakespeare’s play or Anakin Skywalker in Star Wars demonstrate the negative change arc. ��✨ Discover how the transformative journeys of character arcs breathe life into your stories, and captivate the hearts and minds of your readers. You can read the full post in the Reading Room at the link above.

[adracat]

Shaddiq and The End of Fairytales

Shaddiq is quite interesting. His hubris is that he's a romantic at heart. He's styled as a Prince and idealizes Miorine. He dreams of being the triumphant liberator of his people, Prince of Earth itself and heir to a fallen family. It's the makings of a grand romantic story. Yet it was those delusions of fairytale grandeur which led to his downfall

His relationship with Miorine is one-sided but he pictures slowly winning her heart with patience. He refuses to intrude upon her sanctuary because it would ruin the narrative. Rapunzel needs to let the prince inside.

If Shaddiq insists he's different, a prince and not a beast, then surely she'll love him.

But then someone earned her heart the way he always dreamt. Suletta, who Miorine changed for and allowed into her castle of flowers while he's kept firmly at a distance.

It briefly incenses him that this pauper girl, someone not special from Mercury of all places, has earned his princess. He challenges her and their exchange reveals how little he thinks of Miorine's agency. The groom controls the bride. His anger deepens the moment Suletta contradicts him. As the groom, she'll believe in her bride.

During the duel he reveals his world view. Only a person with vision, someone special and destined for greatness like himself can wed a princess. He's soundly struck down because he underestimates Miorine and Earth House, factors he didn't account for while focused on Suletta.

When we next see him, Shaddiq appears oddly resigned. His hostility towards Suletta is completely missing. Yet in the context of S2, we finally understand why. Because this preserves the fairytale. Suletta is the knight who fairly won the princess' heart. He recognizes Suletta sees Miorine as something sacred; a divine beauty worthy of worship. He can concede so long as that image is upheld.

When Guel becomes holder, he doesn't react until this moment. Because he believes Guel has stained Miorine's hands with blood. She's no longer the princess in the tower. Miorine's pure image is ruined and it's entirely Guel's doing. This anger once again leads him to another downfall.

Considering Utena, this is such a clever use of the message princely/fairytale ideals are inherently nonsensical. You cannot paint yourself as a savior and disregard a person's agency. Life does not mirror romantic illusions and instead it's those dreams which blind you to reality. A child's view of the world, not an adult's. Shaddiq remains that orphan who imagined a heroic life for himself. And you can't help but pity him for it.

Ofc, whether he stays out of the game post ep 20 remains to be seen...

[musicfeedsmysoul12]

Thoughts on Bakugou’s Arc:

I maintain that his entire character arc should have been:

A) Some people shouldn’t be heroes. I think it would have been interesting to explore the idea of someone just not being able to be a hero because of their attitude. My more recent Drabble discussing the idea of some conditions automatically denying someone a place in the hero course comes to mind. But also- some people just do not have the right aptitude. And the idea of exploring Bakugou as a character who is so focused on the societal view of heroics (fighting and being the best) he fails at every other aspect leading to his removal from the hero course? That’s attractive as hell as a concept. It also drives home the theme of ‘society has commodified heroics and not has become an entire popularity game’ if we follow this idea. Because we get told he is ‘perfect’ for heroics with his Quirk. We watch as he struts about with his head in the air- and bang! He shows he isn’t right for heroics. UA is the best of the best. We know top heroes come from it. Is it that weird that maybe a kid who isn’t right for heroics just washes right out?

Plus this is also a way for Izuku himself to realize he is a good hero. His bully, the guy held up above all else, had failed where he succeeded. Izuku gets to be raised up and realize he has heroic potential, a true ‘hey Quirks don’t matter’ moment. Because OFA is useful but Izuku has always been heroic.

B) Ego is the downfall of man/Average fish from a small pond moves to a big lake. Bakugou is forced to realize he isn’t the best of the best. This would have been so nice to see. Bakugou’s entire character was/is built on being the best. Izuku looks up to him in canon because he was the best- in their shitty middle school Bakugou chose to have the ‘perfect’ hero story. (It’s canon it’s a third rate school. It means that for someone who is dedicated to studying/working out as Bakugou is canonly it’s not HARD to be at the top) So when they go to U.A… Bakugou is suddenly scrambling to keep up. And at first he doesn’t notice. He’s fine. Then he begins getting his ass kicked. Because working out enough to be at the top at a third rank school? Easy. Working hard enough to compete with people training to be heroes since they were kids? Harder. Even more so since his Quirk isn’t actually as versatile as others. Explosions pale in comparison to Creation or Half Hot-Half Cold. Even Engine is more versatile then explosions from his hands. Animal Voice, Pop Off- all these have more use then his. (sure he can fly but his only skill is in fighting which isn’t everything about heroics)

Bakugou tries to comfort himself with the idea at least he is the best in school but… well, again- average fish in a small pond. He finds himself struggling. The topics are more advanced then he’s used to, suddenly he is expected to follow an incredibly fast paced curriculum (because UA hero course focuses more on heroics, it makes sense the classes are fast paced to focus on heroics) and he can’t. He isn’t used to it, his way of studying fails him.

Bakugou finds himself in the bottom fourth of the class with no idea how he ended up there. And he’s angry. Unfortunately for him, his attitude isn’t doing him favours. He is told to sit down, to knock it off, stop yelling and blaming others. So when he fails his final exam for hitting Izuku (because he should have and I will die on that hill) he is so desperate to prove he is the best. So he goes out, ignoring orders to stay put, during the camp and…

He gets expelled/killed.

This would have been so cool to see. Just the idea of Bakugou being shown again as a way society fails people by propping them up for their Quirk even if they don’t deserve it. So good.

C) He learns that he doesn’t need to be the best. In a world where his redemption actually is one, I would love to have seen him perfectly content with being a mid ranked hero as long as he was saving people. This would feel so good to see, that he has realized that power isn’t everything, that being the best isn’t all that. Just Bakugou being ranked like 500, working at being the best hero he can but not participating in the rankings because he knows it’s garbage and he doesn’t need it.

That feels like so much more of a natural progression of his character. He starts as an asshole who is only in it for himself, to be the best. He wants to be number one. But he actually realizes to be a hero it’s not about that.

I think that would have been perfect. It’s showing that the hero system is busted and your rank shouldn’t matter. It’s showing actual change in Bakugou as a character as he works through his shit. He doesn’t need to be the best- he’s happy just being a hero.

Instead we got ‘oh yeah Bakugou is a top hero and doesn’t change at all’.

Freaking boring.

[bibibbon]

You know? It's kinda of funny how LOV fans treat the whole "I want to be a hero for villains" of Shigaraki as something groundbreaking, when the same concept was already introduced in the series (and was done better) with Nine.

Unlike Shigaraki, Nine literally meet his team members when he saved their lives. In Chimera's case it was when a bunch of racists were about to execute him just for being a mutant.

Nine also was a hero for them in a more thematic level, as he not only save their lives but actually give his team mates a reason for live and fight. He offered them the chance to fight for create a better world. For me it's quite remarkable how Nine despite being a homeless and chronically ill person, go for save people he view as equally oppressed by the world.

He was selfless enough to sacrifice his own health using his quirk to save Chimera despite it was destroying his body, and without expecting nothing in exchange for share a dream Nine a hand to people at their lowest point.

That's much more of an "All Might for the villains" or whatever Horikoshi tried to make Shigaraki in the final moments. Or hell Nine even acts better as a foil to Deku in the sense both are selfless individuals who fight despite their bodies are crumbling, just for the save of the persons who are important to them.

How ironic is that Nine, the original movie villain that was supposed to be just a prototype for the "final villain" of MHA, ended executing the same themes way better than Shigaraki.

Hi @nyc3 👋

A main reason as to why people treat shigaraki's I want to be a hero for the villains ideology better than nine's is simply because I assume a lot of people forgot the plot of the 2nd movie or haven't read the one shot manga chapter mha leauge of villains undercover. All of this is a shame because I heavily agree that nine's version of I want to be a hero and hope for the villains is executed and built up 10000x times better than shigarakis and nine had a fraction of the screentime that shigaraki got which is saying a lot.

Actually rewatching the film and rereading the manga one-shot has showed me that nine and shigarakis arcs are pretty similar with nine's having a better execution and shigaraki having more wasted potential.

The movie sets it clear that nine and shigaraki are supposed to be foils for one another so it makes sense that they would share parallels. However, you would expect that by the time nine is defeated that shigaraki would naraatively prove to us that he is ultimately the better character but in truth he doesn't and nine's downfall by shigaraki ends up being quite disappointing to me.

Another problem within the narrative is also the lack of interactions that nine and shigaraki have. I think that nine is essential to helping shigaraki and start to infulence him to realise that he is just a puppet and should develop a goal outside of just destruction. If shigarakis goal stays as destruction then the destruction of what? Everything? And how would that benefit anyone including him?

Nine like you said meets his teammates and saves them. He sees his teammates suffer like him and chooses to help them and they choose to help him. There is a clear relationship being developed and all the characters come together for the same goal, with similar backgrounds and varying styles yet they work.

When nines team see him in distress they run to help him and vice versa. The team has trust and overall everything that a lot of the leauges dynamics and development lacks.

Nine seeks destruction but his path is clear. He seeks to liberate and let nature flow its course with the strong overtaking the weak and finally being leaders instead of feared and abused because they don't fit into the small little box that is the mha's status quo. Nine plans to get stronger while being fully conscious and knowing the consequences. He makes a logical and heroic decision where we see him realise that he is trading his own autonomy and agency in becoming a lab rat all in exchange for power and a slim chance at achieving his goal.

This is all contrasted with shigaraki and his actions. We don't see his goal of destruction develop into a much more consistent and precise idea like destroying the giver and status quo. We don't see shigaraki fully conscious to come to the conclusion that yes the doctor is evil but he needs power. We lack everything from shigaraki and the information of chapter 419 just makes his character worse as shigaraki was a lab rat through and through.

Horikoshi tries to make shigaraki the better character but nine outclassed him in every way possible from the traumatic beginnings, to the developed flawed goal and to the final bitter end where we see nine crumble due to various factors 1)shigarakis decay and 2) his illness whereas shigaraki dies due to afo still being a lab rat that fulfills his purpose.

All of this reminds me of the ask that said mha's manga ending is a sloppy edited 2nd movie ending (except I was only looking at it from a hero perspective but it even applies to the villains)

Nine deserved better!

[deadboyswalking]

What a lot of fans are wondering, myself included, is "Where did MHA go wrong?"

I can think of several points that kick-started the downfall. This is not an exhaustive list, but just a few of the bigger flaws. It's a really long post, especially on the last point.

1. The reveal that AFO was directly responsible for all of Tomura's woes from before he was even born. This completely absolved society and his abusive family of responsibility, thus cheapening the manga's themes centered around those aspects of the manga's world.

2. Excessive focus on Endeavor at the expense of Shouto's feelings, actions, and inner world. It seems that from the Endeavor Agency Arc onward, Shouto's character is constantly underwritten and shoved aside so his father can get more screentime. Shouto's climactic, emotional final fight with Touya is completely undercut by the actual final fight of Touya vs. Endeavor, with the rest of the Todoroki family (Shouto included) basically sidelined to cheer Endeavor on. Even in the last Todoroki family chapter, the primary focus is still on Endeavor's feelings and not Shouto or Touya.

3. The complete character assassination of Izuku Midoriya. He was never the most interesting MC to begin with, but at least he had something going for him in the early arcs. He was weird, brilliant in battle tactics/analysis, brave and determined, endlessly compassionate, and completely insane. He had a real fire in him as a person and, unlike what many fans say, started the series with an awareness of the deep flaws in his society. People always say that the "save the villains" angle was shoved into the story during the first war, but it's clear from the beginning that the way Deku looked at his society already primed him to believe in that idea. During his mall encounter with Shigaraki, he actually showed that he'd carefully considered Stain's message and understood where he was coming from, even if he didn't agree with his actions. This is the story's first indication that if a villain has a genuine gripe with society and can explain it, Deku is willing to listen to what they have to say. Similarly, at the Sports Festival, he doesn't treat Endeavor with any of respect/awe he usually treats heroes with because Endeavor doesn't show the heroic values that Deku believes in.

So what happened to Deku? Honestly, I think he as a character disappeared beneath the weight of The Vestiges of OFA, Becoming The New Symbol of Peace, and Acting As The Author's Mouthpiece.

Joint Training Arc was the first indication that Izuku himself no longer mattered because of the OFA mythos and Vestiges inside him. Now, I don't mind Blackwhip because it diversified his fighting style and gave him a long-range attack. I also appreciated how hard he had to work to use it effectively and consistently. However, all of the other Vestige Quirks seemed to come to him way too easily and he could use them in perfect combinations without trying and against highly skilled adult opponents. The Vestiges started to talk to him constantly and give him advice, so his battle analysis/tactics were no longer necessary and he didn't need to come up with his own ideas anymore. More importantly, his own strong inner sense of justice and awareness of society's need to change was utterly replaced by some mystical Vestige-world bullshit about saving little Tenko. Adult Tomura was right there, clearly explaining his point of view and deep pain, and Deku didn't even listen to him (or really care when Tomura's body started being controlled by AFO). What happened to the independently compassionate boy from the earlier manga?

Being The New Symbol of Peace is another place where Deku had his character steamrolled. As flawed as the arc as a whole was, I actually had hope for him during the Dark Hero Arc. He was asking questions and genuinely trying to understand why villains became villains. He saw how civilians treated people with mutant quirks, listened to Lady Nagant about the HPSC, and witnessed tons of other abuses by society that made him angry. His eyes were opened and his compassion for Tenko Shimura deepened, priming him for the Final Battle where he would save the man and make a stand to change their society forever. Unfortunately, due to Horikoshi's inability to let go of the All Might and AFO dynamic, Deku's character was squeezed into The New Symbol of Peace mold and he forgot all about what he learned during the Dark Hero Arc in order to take out ShigAFO and let society stay exactly the same.

Finally, Deku was lost when he started Acting As The Author's Mouthpiece. The first sign of this was during Endeavor Agency Arc, when he told Shouto that he would forgive Endeavor "because you're a good person" and fawning all over Endeavor in general. I'm sorry, what? As much as Deku likes heroes, he was already shown to strongly dislike Endeavor because he didn't act like a true hero should and abused his family (people smaller and weaker than himself). Now one of your best fucking friends and his siblings are giving you more details of their horrific upbringing, including about their dead brother, and your response is that a good person would forgive Endeavor because he's trying to be better??? There is no canon justification for why Deku would do that type of 180°, but there's certainly an author that continually pushed more and more screentime for Endeavor and his feelings as the series went on. I wouldn't give a shit if this opinion change had any lead-up to it (as characters can change their minds all they want), but there's nothing in Deku's previously-shown character/personality that would lead to that conclusion. As the story went on, Deku mostly lost his introspective nature and stopped struggling with internal conflicts over right and wrong and what it means to be a hero. Instead, he just started mindlessly spouting whatever half-assed "message" the author wanted to show during any given scene with no regard to his previous opinions, background, or personality, often contradicting himself as the story's messages couldn't stay consistent either.