#helluva boss discourse

[cute-little-fly]

I find this discussion interesting, because we have predicted things, but, at the same time there are things that are very surprising and unexpected at the same time. Like, we are given what we expected but in a very unexpected way.

Either this show is getting easy to predict, or viv and brandon watch the fanbase VERY closely.

[helluva-headache]

I try usually to not get into discourse about the shows because it's exhausting but I'm just throwing this out there because it's bouncing around in my brain.

It's kinda wild to me how many Stolas haters there are that genuinely don't believe Stolas is going to have any sort of reckoning when it comes to his class/racial bias.

I've even seen people go as far as say the writers of the show are "just going to let it slide" and Stolas "won't face any consequences".

Like... the writers are the ones who wrote in Stolas' class/racial bias to begin with.

During Harvest Moon Festival, they purposefully show a shot of the crowd looking angry as Stolas addresses them as "tiny wrath ring imps".

The writers wrote Striker's dialogue in Harvest Moon Festival and Western Energy, clearly showing his distaste for royals and the disparity between classes. They wouldn't do this, especially in the scenes where Striker is talking directly about/to Stolas, if this wasn't going to be an important issue that will be addressed down the line.

It's even brought up in Full Moon and Apology Tour. In Full Moon, Blitzø's anger towards Stolas' attitude regarding imps is the climax of their argument at the end of the episode. He may not have expressed it in a way that Stolas would be entirely receptive to in that moment, but it's a huge first step as this is the first time Blitzø is directly expressing his frustration to Stolas' face.

And then in Apology Tour we have Stolas saying to Blitzø "I don't look down on you!" and "When have I ever?-" and then goes on to compare Blitzø's attitude to Striker's. This conversation is derailed when Stolas finds out about the first assassination attempt, but their conversation here is another big step in the right direction. This conversation shows Blitzø, and us in the audience, that Stolas doesn't actively believe he's better than imps, but passively without realizing it treats imps as if they are lesser.

This is important because it distinguishes Stolas' behavior from that of someone with malicious intent, perhaps like how Andrealphus did when referring to Striker as a "mangy stray". This distinction shows us that Stolas is capable of change. He's never had a reason to examine his class/racial bias, until he met Blitzø.

All this to say there are too many breadcrumbs intentionally left by the writers for this topic to not be addressed at some point. I understand some people who are especially fans of Blitzø may be upset because of a literal "anti-Blitzø party" in Apology Tour, and might feel like the show is unfairly digging at Blitzø without addressing Stolas' wrongs. However, I feel like it's reasonable for Blitzø's issues to be addressed first as he is the main character. And based on the season 2 trailer, I don't doubt that in one of the next few episodes the show will be digging into Stolas as well.

The show isn't over yet. If a major character flaw that has been referred to in multiple episodes throughout the entire series hasn't been formally addressed yet, trust the writers to address it before the show is completed.

[river--ghost]

alr i’ve had this simmering inside me for a while and i need to let it out.

hot take here, but stella’s haters are wayy worse than her fans. like… what moral high ground are you trying to stand on here. it’s fiction.

look i don’t even like stella. she sucks, and personally i want to know WHY she sucks, and the last post i made about her, i got multiple keyboard warriors in my comments yelling, it doesn’t need justification! she can just suck! for once we don’t have to think about why we hate a character! wanting depth for stella is pointless, she can never be redeemed! we have enough stella sympathizers! stop acting like her treatment of stolas is anything other than abuse! this can’t be solved with a tragic backstory!

since when does knowing someone’s reasons for being the way they are automatically make them less shitty? if they continue to do bad things, then their past doesn’t justify them. but that doesn’t fucking mean that we as viewers can’t be curious about it. contemplating and discussing that shit is just part of the fun for a lot of fans.

and when i got those comments, i was. baffled. because that is so incredibly mild. if that’s bad, then i dread to think of how people treat anyone who actually likes her. because GODDAMN do people act like that is a sin worse than actually committing those acts against a real human in real life.

does vivziepop have to add another line to the warning in the beginning of every episode?

“the following cartoon contains graphic violence, strong language, sexual themes, flashing lights, as well as rampant demon horniness. nobody was hurt in the making of this show, because all characters are fictional, meaning they are not real. they cannot be hurt because they are not real. you should not attack real people over the actions of fictional people. so yes, it’s intended for mature audiences.”

i need you to read this part very carefully. it’s fine if you prefer simple antagonists. it’s fine that you want her to be easy to hate. i am not saying there’s anything wrong with that. if that’s what you’re hoping for, great! that’s literally okay. it’s not what i personally prefer but that is not the point of this post.

i’m saying that tossing around words like “sympathizing with abusers” about fans who are literally talking about a collection of pixels on a screen… is fucked up. prioritizing the well-beings of stolas and octavia over those of your fellow hellaverse fans is abhorrent behavior. because.. once again… unlike your fellow fans, stolas and octavia are not real. that is an extreme overreaction and it is HARMING real people. stop that. for the love of god.

[helluvahusker]

Gotta be real, I do not understand why people are wasting their time arguing over who Vassago is going to be to Stolas and why whatever they think will be good/bad. Like babygirls. None of us know. We won't know until the episodes are released. Maybe wait to argue with strangers over Vassago until we have him canonically? Idk. Maybe that's just me.

[fizzyrodeo]

"blitzø is the worst character-!"

"no, it's obviously stolas!! nobody should like stolas-!!"

me, in the corner, holding back a four-hour rant about loona;

(and i'm not attacking the voice actor for things she's went through, because for some reason whenever someone criticises loona there's always one person who goes 'the voice actor was having a rough time so that's why loona was off'. i am not criticizing how loona didn't have any lines for an entire episode or how she was out of the picture for a little bit. i'm talking about how she's a pos to moxxie— who's only crime that i can recall is calling her out for her bs and blitzø for enabling her— and blitzø, which is wild when she's probably the one person in the cast that blitzø has put his best self forth for, 100% of the time. the only remotely sound argument i can think of is 'loona missed out on childhood due to being homeless which is why she's acting so immature and crude now that she's adopted' but that doesn't change the fact that she treats the one person who deeply cares for her like he's garbage- UNLESS he's not in a coherent state.)

[cute-little-fly]

People really saw sinsmas and thought that Stolas is not in love with Blitzø now… or that is getting out of love with him… Like, what episode did you watched? People don’t know how interprete a character that is going through depression. Obviously, his vision of love is changing and they can’t be fully together yet, and having confessed anything, but they both know. Like, did they missed the cool ass romantic kiss scene?

[hazbin-loony-bin]

I’m having flashbacks to “Zuko’s personality transformation that came out of nowhere late Season 2” vibes from Blitzø … you don’t just MAGICALLY unlearn an entire life’s worth of shitty behavior just because you had a narratively dramatic climax scene with someone.

We should see him biting back snide comments, slipping up and apologizing, struggling with the notion of Stolas being weepy over being “poor” because he and his crew had to work their way up from the bottom.

This is BAD WRITING.

This team does NOT KNOW HOW TO WRITE CHARACTERS.

They hit all the major story beats and do it with flair, but they incredibly do not seem to know how people actually work.

Oh he’s suddenly emotionally attentive when out of hundreds of exes, he’s seemingly never had a non-turbulent split? Where did he learn this from? We should see some “well I don’t know what to say, I’ve never been good with mushy stuff” moments. And then Stolas saying it’s ok, just hold me. They would feel like the same character as opposed to a Body Snatcher who swapped into his form.

Angel Dust had the opposite problem, we saw him admit his act was a mask, and then exactly zero came out of that turning point, he was back to cracking crude jokes as if nothing happened.

Never mind that his trauma isn’t really explored either …

This show doesn’t have “character arcs” so much as the fanfiction writer phenomenon of “oh I have this great idea for a scene, another scene, dunno how to fill in the gaps or connect it or make the whole thing coherent though”

Which you know, if you’re doing drabbles on Ao3 is 100% ok.

But not when you have (supposedly??) a whole team of human beings who have ostensibly consumed some good content themselves and are getting paid who knows what to crank out this crap …

idk man, this story is too gorgeous and too catchy not to watch but the handling of the characters sometimes makes me want to choke the life out of something. I have never had such a love-hate relationship with any other piece of media ever. XD

Guess I can probably find some more psychologically versed and worldbuilding rich fanfic to soothe it.

Reccs welcome.

[baobhanlore-art]

Just watched Exes and Oohs and I wish we'd get a more Millie centric episode. Despite Millie dating Chaz we hardly got any backstory between them and the only thing it went towards was Blitz's jokes. Millie would have still been mad at Chaz after hearing about what he did to Moxxie.

And yes, we get badass fight scenes from her but we don't get much more. She's hardly changed throughout the show so far and only ever loves Moxxie and protects Moxxie and exist for Moxxie. She doesn't even sing her big dramatic song, it's background music.

Maybe she had an intense rivalry with Sallie May and that's largely where her aggression comes from, and Moxxie is the first person to love her how she is and not just for her achievements or use.

Maybe she uses violence as a crutch for her frustration at how she's not taken seriously as a short rural imp woman and needs to learn to accept herself and not constantly assert dominance over people around her.

Maybe she's used to people in Wrath just straight up dying and she feels like she needs to protect everyone so she doesn't lose them.

These are just some ideas I'm throwing at the wall! I get that it's an indie production which takes time but it'd be nice to see some Millie conflict to better build the group dynamic.

Every other main character has had more development than her, even when they have less screen time. She feels like such an afterthought sometimes.

((I feel like whenever I get into a piece of media, the character I like the concept of most ends up being the least interesting. Millie, Yor Briar (SXF), Anne (JJBA), Taryn Duarte (FOA), etc. So this may be a bit more aggressive than I actually feel about her but my frustration has just built up over time.))

[amr2002amr]

People who say it is stupid to cry while watching Helluva Boss or Hazbin Hotel because the writing, etc. is cringe clearly are missing the emotional point of the shows. It is okay to cry at them because damn the shows are about some pretty emotional stuff a lot of the time. Not everyone will cry at the shows but it is not okay to shame people for crying at it just cause you say "it is cringe." Smh

Ykkk

[twisting-echo]

Hi, @gothikaxenon it's me, Twisting-Echo from DA. I just thought I'd give you some more evidence and stories from other people about Nikki1975/Grayluftw.

The links below are what others have shared with me.

[gimme-a-thrust]

I seriously don't understand people.

People criticizing Adam's design, people already criticizing Mammon's design and all we have is his silhouette, people going and saying they hate the main characters, the entire cast of characters, the writing, the art style, etc.

It is so much easier to go find something you like and stop interacting with Vivzie's stuff. You are under no obligation to like it. If you hate everything about it, why are you even here?

[write-helluva-messy-boss]

been following basic tags like "helluva boss" and "helluva [character name]" and i just want to make something clear

these are general tags, and i don't know if this is universal for everyone, but generally i follow these tags for positive and neutral content about the show. i like hearing fan theories and seeing fanart.

what I'm not interested in is people complaining about the show. i happen to enjoy the show and disagree with a lot of the complaints and criticisms i see. plus, if i wanted to find that content, i would look for it, and not in these general tags. but the negative/critical content is literally the only recommended content i have been getting on Tumblr from these tags.

so, just putting it out there: if you're making critical posts, that's fine — but please don't use the general helluva boss tags. please instead use "helluva boss critical" or "helluva [character] critical" or "helluva [ship] critical."

for one, it's actually more organizational and correct in terms of how fandoms tend to tag things. secondly, it makes sure that your content reaches the right people. Tumblr algorithm isn't that smart and has not figured out, even with help, that i don't want to see this kind of post. so please, use the tag system in this way. we have been tagging things like this for years now. and, I'm frankly tired of seeing people endlessly complaining (not even being critical, just complaining with no factual/cited basis) about a show i happen to enjoy. if we use our tagging system to it's fullest, you all can find your community and i can find mine. keep expressing yourself, but please, tag things accordingly.

[ask-asexual-crystal-gems]

Prime QPR material: canonically would probably have a hard time satisfying each other sexually* due to inherent size differences, but so emotionally close that one can essentially boss the other one around without being perceived as preachy

(TMI *except if vore was somehow a thing for those experiencing it rather than those viewing it like in the real world)

[tomis-problem]

IF UR AN ANTI SHE IS NOT “LITERALLY YOU”

SHE LITERALLY HAS A HIT ON HER FOR BEING A PROSHIPPER. SHE HAS A HIT ON HER FOR SHIPPING INCEST. YALL ANTI MFS WOULD BE THE ONE PUTTING THE HIT ON HER ‼️‼️

[justarandomhelluvablog]

"Why do Asmodeus and Beelzebub get to be good people while Mammon is flat-out terrible?"

Because greed can't be good. Bottom line. You can make arguments for lust and gluttony not being inherently harmful, but not greed.

The very basis of greed is intense desire for something (not just money) with disregard for others. You can be lustful and still love (ex, feeling sexual desire for your partner). You can be gluttonous and still be responsible (ex, going out to a party on your weekend). But you cannot be greedy and care about others.

Being the embodiment of greed inherently means you cannot care about other people. That's why Ozzie and Bee get to be Ozzie and Bee. That's why Mammon will only ever be Mammon.

[certifiablyinsanez]

Mammon is great ace representation: an essay on aphobia in the Hellaverse fandom

I’m seeing a lot of people be mad about Mammon having a thing for Leviathan. And I’m going to need the fandom to step back and examine these issues, because they are 100% rooted in aphobia. I have been out as an oriented aroace person for over 10 years if you want to doubt my credentials, rather than listen to my analysis, lived experience and reflect.

So. Tell me Hellaverse fandom; why, when it comes to Alastor, who is a character who very clearly has zero interest in others, it is always a chorus of people saying “aces can have sex”, “aces can enjoy sex”, “it’s not harmful to the ace community to use Alastor for shipping material, he isn’t real and asexuality and aromanticism is a huge spectrum”, “Aroace people can still date and have sex”?

But when it comes to Mammon, he is “bad asexual representation”, he “clearly experiences sexual attraction”, “he can’t be demisexual”, etc.

No genuinely, why is this? I want you to examine this, think on it from a place of neutral examination and come to your own conclusions. Because this is a worrisome double standard. This can for starters, be an instance of fat phobia. Because out of the two of them, Alastor is thin, and therefore closer to the beauty standard, which is hysterical considering that Alastor canonically has horrible hygiene, and I don’t think I know a single person who thinks that stank ass body and breath is attractive. Mammon, as seen from the slovenly way he eats, can potentially be assumed to have poor hygiene as well, but it has a very different connotation because of his weight. [Research the connection between thin privilege and body odor/hygiene. It’s very real].

I can spend a lot of time and energy going into the shipping dynamics between the shows, as well as how Alastor is a more “shippable” character in comparison to Mammon, but I honestly don’t find this as interesting or as compelling as to what I’m about to say next.

Because aphobia in the real world is still very alive and well today. In my 10+ years of being in the ace community, I have genuinely spent a lot of emotional energy, time, knowledge, experience, and compassion, just fighting for the right to even be acknowledged as queer. I have vivid memories from when I was first out of the closet at the age of 16, telling ace people across apps and forums that they were valid, that they weren’t broken, that they were deserving of love, respect, and a place in the queer community. I was telling people, younger, my age, and older that they shouldn’t kill themselves, that they had worth beyond what they could do in the bedroom for others. I had to convince people that they didn’t owe anyone sex, and that they were in fact being sexually abused by their partners. I was on the phone with people in tears. I spent HOURS of my life in these DMs at an age where I was a suffering, mentally ill queer child that was also being victimized by aphobia. Still to this day people think the “A” stands for ally. And still to this day people have discord about our community as a whole. I have had to sit and watch as people went from loudly proclaiming with their whole chest that asexual people didn’t exist, or at the very least weren’t queer. Then years went by and it became less and less okay to say things like that, because asexual people finally had fought long enough and had supported each other enough that we discovered our voices and began to use them. So people were finally facing the consequences of saying bigoted shit.

And now that they can’t say that asexuals aren’t queer, they moved on to another group. Demisexuals. Demisexuals by far have it roughest, because while there are many micro labels in our community to explain our diverse range of experiences, demisexual is probably the most well known one. And every handful of months or so I have to use my voice once again to stand up for my people, because an attack on one of us is an attack on all of us, and people on the internet have made it clear that they have no qualms of attacking us. The asexual and aromantic community have made extremely valuable contributions to the queer community that are entirely overlooked because we are not valued in it.

And this is why I have been an outspoken proponent of my displeasure over Alastor being a character that is the most shipped with others, and my disdain for the fanbase has grown even wider after Mammons appearance in Mastermind. It is a painful reminder of all the discrimination I’ve faced over the years, that my community still goes through. Because people are contrarians. Alastor is canonically asexual, and other aspects of his character are reflective of aromanticism as well. Well, the fanbase doesn’t like this so much. If you genuinely pay attention, you’ll notice this is a trend with a lot of other aroace characters. My favorite example is Peridot from Steven Universe, a canonical aroace character. In the show, Peridot goes through a lot of unlearning and growth. The scene where she tries to fuse with Garnet has massive implications for a few reasons. Because one, she is genuine in her desire to understand Garnet, and fusion better. And two, fusion while forbidden on Homeworld, is commonplace and normal in the Crystal Gems. As a Crystal Gem, she feels this is what is now expected of her. This is a major experience in the aspec community, as living in a cis heteronormative society means that sex, marriage and children are all things expected of each individual, which is dangerous and harmful ideology to everyone, asexual/aromantic people as well. Peridot couldn’t go through with the fusion, but that didn’t stop the fandom salivating, and foaming at the mouth over a potential Lapis/Peridot fusion. People were genuinely mad at Rebecca Sugar for never making that pairing canon, when they had absolutely no right to behave the way they did. Let’s not forget how the fans also misgendered Rebecca Sugar constantly. It was absolutely bigoted.

This is happening with Alastor. Fans feel entitled to ship him with whomever, an entitlement that is not seen with other characters. When people ship Vaggie with Angel, there is backlash, and for good reason. Because people understand that despite the fact that Vivienne Medrano said people can ship whatever, shipping a gay man with a woman and a gay woman with a man is…gross. It is wrong, it is disrespectful of their identities, and is forcing heteronormativity onto characters that are strict in their sexualities. Most people are able to recognize the thinly veiled homophobia. But Alastor does not receive the same treatment, and in fact receives the opposite treatment. I don’t know what I could say to convince you that the aroace coded character in a show being the #1 most shipped is thinly veiled aphobia the same way Vaggie x Angel is thinly veiled homophobia.

Now what does that have to do with Mammon? Mammon seems to not be aroace coded like Alastor, and for some reason, that has thoroughly pissed people off. Because Mammon is not the “acceptable” caricature of an asexual person. Most allosexual (non-asexual and/or aromantic people) view being asexual as being synonymous with being aromantic, which shows a painful lack of understanding and at times respect for the diversity of our community. Alastor fits this category, so he’s an “acceptable asexual”, while also essentially being a toy for shippers. But Mammon, with his clear attraction to Leviathan, is a “bastardization” of the asexual image. When we aren’t being viewed as broken, we’re often being viewed as chaste, virginal, and innocent with attachments to infantilization. But Mammon, with his aggressive and even icky approach to flirting with Leviathan, is seen as a subversion of this, which for people who don’t understand our community, hate. And these people are blaming Vivienne for having “terrible ace rep” when in actuality, having multiple ace characters having very little in common is actually fantastic rep. Because there are many labels in our community that Mammon can fit into as an asexual. To me, he looks like a sex-positive, high libido, demisexual. He’s known Leviathan for thousands of years, of course it makes sense that he would be into her, but not into anyone else which would explain why his “posse” are just female robots. This could also be because of his classism, but I genuinely think that he’s just demisexual. And you already know how people feel about demisexuals.

If you’ve read this far and have genuinely set aside your biases and personal feelings like I requested in the beginning, I appreciate that. Because from my own lived experience, the double standard between Alastor and Mammon doesn’t annoy me; it frightens me.

Because what the fandom is actually saying when they do these things is this:

“We see you as a homogenous group. Your voices go in one ear and out the other. If you don’t conform to our values and standards, we won’t give you the respect or recognition you deserve. If you don’t conform to my view of your group, you lose my “allyship”. We do not see your identity as a sexuality in its own right, but rather a literary device we can play with. I do not care to learn more about your community, your culture, or your struggles. I barely (if at all) acknowledge you as your own sexual minority and marginalized group. I barely acknowledge (if at all) that you are queer at all. I do not care about your feelings about societal biases that I might carry, I don’t care about how you’ve lived it, because it takes away my fun and fantasies. Because I devalue your group as a whole, your voices mean little. Your narrative is mine to do with as I please.”

I really hope you can see my perspective and understand the sincere place this comes from. Thanks for reading.