#helluva boss discourse

[helluva-headache]

I try usually to not get into discourse about the shows because it's exhausting but I'm just throwing this out there because it's bouncing around in my brain.

It's kinda wild to me how many Stolas haters there are that genuinely don't believe Stolas is going to have any sort of reckoning when it comes to his class/racial bias.

I've even seen people go as far as say the writers of the show are "just going to let it slide" and Stolas "won't face any consequences".

Like... the writers are the ones who wrote in Stolas' class/racial bias to begin with.

During Harvest Moon Festival, they purposefully show a shot of the crowd looking angry as Stolas addresses them as "tiny wrath ring imps".

The writers wrote Striker's dialogue in Harvest Moon Festival and Western Energy, clearly showing his distaste for royals and the disparity between classes. They wouldn't do this, especially in the scenes where Striker is talking directly about/to Stolas, if this wasn't going to be an important issue that will be addressed down the line.

It's even brought up in Full Moon and Apology Tour. In Full Moon, Blitzø's anger towards Stolas' attitude regarding imps is the climax of their argument at the end of the episode. He may not have expressed it in a way that Stolas would be entirely receptive to in that moment, but it's a huge first step as this is the first time Blitzø is directly expressing his frustration to Stolas' face.

And then in Apology Tour we have Stolas saying to Blitzø "I don't look down on you!" and "When have I ever?-" and then goes on to compare Blitzø's attitude to Striker's. This conversation is derailed when Stolas finds out about the first assassination attempt, but their conversation here is another big step in the right direction. This conversation shows Blitzø, and us in the audience, that Stolas doesn't actively believe he's better than imps, but passively without realizing it treats imps as if they are lesser.

This is important because it distinguishes Stolas' behavior from that of someone with malicious intent, perhaps like how Andrealphus did when referring to Striker as a "mangy stray". This distinction shows us that Stolas is capable of change. He's never had a reason to examine his class/racial bias, until he met Blitzø.

All this to say there are too many breadcrumbs intentionally left by the writers for this topic to not be addressed at some point. I understand some people who are especially fans of Blitzø may be upset because of a literal "anti-Blitzø party" in Apology Tour, and might feel like the show is unfairly digging at Blitzø without addressing Stolas' wrongs. However, I feel like it's reasonable for Blitzø's issues to be addressed first as he is the main character. And based on the season 2 trailer, I don't doubt that in one of the next few episodes the show will be digging into Stolas as well.

The show isn't over yet. If a major character flaw that has been referred to in multiple episodes throughout the entire series hasn't been formally addressed yet, trust the writers to address it before the show is completed.

[cute-little-fly]

Every day I understand more why some people have trouble with watching Helluva.

A lot of details and characterizations are not explicitly shown, but are shown indirectly and you need to rewatch and dig deeper for yourself and catch those details.

I won’t enter into the debate of wether that is good or bad storytelling. Is just a way to do it, for some people work, for some don’t. That’s it.

One recent example: some people was puzzled why Blitzø saw a family with Stolas and Octavia, and they think is Out of character he wants that.

However, with small details they have shown that was Blitz’s driving force since the beginning. But even himself didn’t realized until now that he has opened his heart.

Examples:

If he was trully a cold blooded asshole he wouldn’t have adopted Loona. Never never… he would have adopted a more aggressive and deathly hellhound if he really only was there for the business. Immediately seeing her as his daughter for no reason.

Like, all his façade is just bullshit just bc of that… but I will tell you something else.

When we see his backstory at the circus we see how his life was. A family circus… a family business… having an office for a circus=having his family in better work conditions. He recreated this in his adult life.

Adopting people on the way because he connected with them. Of course, he brought Millie to the team because how amazingly good she is. But don’t you think he also felt a connection with her too? An special one? This is shown while they are fighting. He enjoys fighting with her. Wrath imps culture circules around fights. This is a way they bond. He wanted her there because he felt a connection.

With Moxxie was the same. The exact same thing. He is just there adopting people he feels this connection with to recreate the circus.

Now, the next step for that would be expand that family with his current SO and his daughter; because his wish hasn’t just been having the circus family kind again, he have always wanted a romantic partner too. He has been months regretting having lost Stolas. Months to think about what could have been, about how he is the person he loves and probably could have formed a family with if having the chance.

People are just not willing to think if they are not clearly shown something. Also, is an indie cartoon so they don’t have much time to show things and they need to progress the story.

But essentially the problem people have with HB is that one.

They have a problem with Millie because she is not directly shown having things outside the main cast because she isn’t usually focused. Her backstory episode was also an important Blitzø episode, so they think is as simple as saying: all her development revolves around men. As if Blitz’s development didn’t revolved around the people he cares.

They don’t think is important to her character that she is the one keeping them together in hard times. They don’t think this relates to how sometimes she doesn’t feel seen. She is the best in assassin but still… she doesn’t feel seen.

She was a regular assassins when she met Blitzø. She wasn’t one considered special or anything. Blitzø was the one who saw that potential and saw HER!

This is why he is her bestie.

[criticalcrusherbot]

Crushbot: This feels less like a good-faith critique and more like someone searching for a reason to hate Vivziepop and her work. The parallels between Helluva Boss and Bojack Horseman are there, sure—but reducing Stolas’s arc to a “can I copy your homework?” moment reeks of a desperate attempt to discredit the show rather than actually engaging with what it’s doing.

Parallels, Sure—But Context Matters

Let’s talk about the alleged similarities. Yes, Stolas being hated by the imps after his banishment could look like Bojack being “cancelled.” Both happen after courtroom scenes. Both involve estrangement from a younger female family member (Octavia for Stolas, Hollyhock for Bojack). That’s where the similarities end, and pretending otherwise ignores the wildly different purposes these arcs serve.

Bojack vs. Stolas

Bojack’s arc is about personal accountability and the destruction he leaves in his wake. His estrangement from Hollyhock is well-earned; she discovers the ways he’s manipulated and harmed others, and she rightfully cuts him off. The public backlash against Bojack is a direct response to his moral failings, forcing him to sit with the consequences of his actions.

Stolas, on the other hand, is being punished specifically for lending Blitz his grimoire, an illegal act that threatens the power structures of Hell. The characters in power (the Sins and the Goetia) care far more about this rule-breaking and his vague proclamation of being the "mastermind" behind some heinous plot than about his personal failings—cheating on Stella or neglecting Octavia emotionally. And they certainly don’t care about his classism or his (unintentionally) demeaning attitude towards imps.

Stolas’s punishment in Mastermind reflects Hell’s oppressive hierarchy and its misplaced priorities, rather than serving as a reckoning with his true faults. Comparing these two situations as if they’re identical flattens both narratives, ignoring the distinct ways each show explores power, accountability, and personal flaws.

The Martyr Argument

The claim that Stolas is treated like a martyr and excused for his actions is laughable. Stolas is flawed; the show never pretends otherwise. We’ve seen him struggle with his poor decisions and their consequences—particularly with Octavia. But his punishment in Mastermind isn’t about absolving him; it’s about highlighting the misdirected anger of an oppressive system.

This misdirected anger mirrors the real-world reactions of oppressed groups, who often lash out at convenient but less culpable targets when they feel powerless to confront the true source of their suffering. The hatred Stolas faces from the imp community doesn’t stem from his personal failings—it stems from the deep, systemic inequities of Hell's hierarchy, a system Stolas has long benefited from. 

The idea that Vivziepop thinks Stolas is “blameless” feels like an intentional misreading. Stolas is far from perfect, but his arc is about redemption and growth, not victimhood. If anything, the animosity he faces underscores the show’s broader themes of power dynamics and societal injustice, emphasizing how oppressive systems perpetuate cycles of blame and resentment.

“Can I Copy Your Homework?”—Lazy Critique

Sure, you can find surface-level similarities between Helluva Boss and Bojack Horseman, but that doesn’t make one a copy of the other. The thematic goals are wildly different:

Bojack Horseman is a deeply introspective, human story about accountability and the lasting damage of selfishness.

Helluva Boss is a surreal, melodramatic exploration of power, marginalization, and complicated relationships within a hellish hierarchy.

If anything, the similarities between the two are evidence of Helluva Boss drawing from familiar storytelling beats to craft something uniquely its own. Accusing it of plagiarism or lazy writing misses the point entirely. Stolas’s arc is tailored to Helluva Boss’s world—a chaotic, exaggerated, and deeply emotional sandbox that doesn’t care about “grounded realism” in the same way Bojack Horseman does.

The Real Issue

Let’s be honest: critiques like this aren’t really about writing quality or thematic depth. They’re about taking perverse joy in tearing Vivziepop down. It’s less about legitimate criticism and more about manufacturing outrage. It’s exhausting.

The truth is, Helluva Boss does what it sets out to do: deliver a visually stunning, emotionally resonant, and often absurd story in a way that resonates with its audience. If some people are so hung up on surface-level comparisons that they can’t see that, maybe they’re not the intended audience—and that’s fine. But let’s not pretend their bad-faith critiques hold any weight.

[ghost-oftheriver]

alr i’ve had this simmering inside me for a while and i need to let it out.

hot take here, but stella’s haters are wayy worse than her fans. like… what moral high ground are you trying to stand on here. it’s fiction.

look i don’t even like stella. she sucks, and personally i want to know WHY she sucks, and the last post i made about her, i got multiple keyboard warriors in my comments yelling, it doesn’t need justification! she can just suck! for once we don’t have to think about why we hate a character! wanting depth for stella is pointless, she can never be redeemed! we have enough stella sympathizers! stop acting like her treatment of stolas is anything other than abuse! this can’t be solved with a tragic backstory!

since when does knowing someone’s reasons for being the way they are automatically make them less shitty? if they continue to do bad things, then their past doesn’t justify them. but that doesn’t fucking mean that we as viewers can’t be curious about it. contemplating and discussing that shit is just part of the fun for a lot of fans.

and when i got those comments, i was. baffled. because that is so incredibly mild. if that’s bad, then i dread to think of how people treat anyone who actually likes her. because GODDAMN do people act like that is a sin worse than actually committing those acts against a real human in real life.

does vivziepop have to add another line to the warning in the beginning of every episode?

“the following cartoon contains graphic violence, strong language, sexual themes, flashing lights, as well as rampant demon horniness. nobody was hurt in the making of this show, because all characters are fictional, meaning they are not real. they cannot be hurt because they are not real. you should not attack real people over the actions of fictional people. so yes, it’s intended for mature audiences.”

i need you to read this part very carefully. it’s fine if you prefer simple antagonists. it’s fine that you want her to be easy to hate. i am not saying there’s anything wrong with that. if that’s what you’re hoping for, great! that’s literally okay. it’s not what i personally prefer but that is not the point of this post.

i’m saying that tossing around words like “sympathizing with abusers” about fans who are literally talking about a collection of pixels on a screen… is fucked up. prioritizing the well-beings of stolas and octavia over those of your fellow hellaverse fans is abhorrent behavior. because.. once again… unlike your fellow fans, stolas and octavia are not real. that is an extreme overreaction and it is HARMING real people. stop that. for the love of god.

[helluvahusker]

Gotta be real, I do not understand why people are wasting their time arguing over who Vassago is going to be to Stolas and why whatever they think will be good/bad. Like babygirls. None of us know. We won't know until the episodes are released. Maybe wait to argue with strangers over Vassago until we have him canonically? Idk. Maybe that's just me.

[fizzyrodeo]

"blitzø is the worst character-!"

"no, it's obviously stolas!! nobody should like stolas-!!"

me, in the corner, holding back a four-hour rant about loona;

(and i'm not attacking the voice actor for things she's went through, because for some reason whenever someone criticises loona there's always one person who goes 'the voice actor was having a rough time so that's why loona was off'. i am not criticizing how loona didn't have any lines for an entire episode or how she was out of the picture for a little bit. i'm talking about how she's a pos to moxxie— who's only crime that i can recall is calling her out for her bs and blitzø for enabling her— and blitzø, which is wild when she's probably the one person in the cast that blitzø has put his best self forth for, 100% of the time. the only remotely sound argument i can think of is 'loona missed out on childhood due to being homeless which is why she's acting so immature and crude now that she's adopted' but that doesn't change the fact that she treats the one person who deeply cares for her like he's garbage- UNLESS he's not in a coherent state.)

[hazbin-loony-bin]

I’m having flashbacks to “Zuko’s personality transformation that came out of nowhere late Season 2” vibes from Blitzø … you don’t just MAGICALLY unlearn an entire life’s worth of shitty behavior just because you had a narratively dramatic climax scene with someone.

We should see him biting back snide comments, slipping up and apologizing, struggling with the notion of Stolas being weepy over being “poor” because he and his crew had to work their way up from the bottom.

This is BAD WRITING.

This team does NOT KNOW HOW TO WRITE CHARACTERS.

They hit all the major story beats and do it with flair, but they incredibly do not seem to know how people actually work.

Oh he’s suddenly emotionally attentive when out of hundreds of exes, he’s seemingly never had a non-turbulent split? Where did he learn this from? We should see some “well I don’t know what to say, I’ve never been good with mushy stuff” moments. And then Stolas saying it’s ok, just hold me. They would feel like the same character as opposed to a Body Snatcher who swapped into his form.

Angel Dust had the opposite problem, we saw him admit his act was a mask, and then exactly zero came out of that turning point, he was back to cracking crude jokes as if nothing happened.

Never mind that his trauma isn’t really explored either …

This show doesn’t have “character arcs” so much as the fanfiction writer phenomenon of “oh I have this great idea for a scene, another scene, dunno how to fill in the gaps or connect it or make the whole thing coherent though”

Which you know, if you’re doing drabbles on Ao3 is 100% ok.

But not when you have (supposedly??) a whole team of human beings who have ostensibly consumed some good content themselves and are getting paid who knows what to crank out this crap …

idk man, this story is too gorgeous and too catchy not to watch but the handling of the characters sometimes makes me want to choke the life out of something. I have never had such a love-hate relationship with any other piece of media ever. XD

Guess I can probably find some more psychologically versed and worldbuilding rich fanfic to soothe it.

Reccs welcome.

[baobhanlore-art]

Just watched Exes and Oohs and I wish we'd get a more Millie centric episode. Despite Millie dating Chaz we hardly got any backstory between them and the only thing it went towards was Blitz's jokes. Millie would have still been mad at Chaz after hearing about what he did to Moxxie.

And yes, we get badass fight scenes from her but we don't get much more. She's hardly changed throughout the show so far and only ever loves Moxxie and protects Moxxie and exist for Moxxie. She doesn't even sing her big dramatic song, it's background music.

Maybe she had an intense rivalry with Sallie May and that's largely where her aggression comes from, and Moxxie is the first person to love her how she is and not just for her achievements or use.

Maybe she uses violence as a crutch for her frustration at how she's not taken seriously as a short rural imp woman and needs to learn to accept herself and not constantly assert dominance over people around her.

Maybe she's used to people in Wrath just straight up dying and she feels like she needs to protect everyone so she doesn't lose them.

These are just some ideas I'm throwing at the wall! I get that it's an indie production which takes time but it'd be nice to see some Millie conflict to better build the group dynamic.

Every other main character has had more development than her, even when they have less screen time. She feels like such an afterthought sometimes.

((I feel like whenever I get into a piece of media, the character I like the concept of most ends up being the least interesting. Millie, Yor Briar (SXF), Anne (JJBA), Taryn Duarte (FOA), etc. So this may be a bit more aggressive than I actually feel about her but my frustration has just built up over time.))

[civicmuses]

@cxffeeshxp asked:

🔥

I know that the Hellaverse has a lot of flaws but the amount of hate it gets is ridiculous. There will be drama over everything. Hazbin Hotel merch being sold at Hot Topic? People wearing Hellaverse merch in public? The Hazbin Hotel twitter/X account posting a picture of Fat Nuggets? Drama.

I understand that people might not like Viv or the Hellaverse but jfc.

unpopular opinions // open & accepting

[amr2002amr]

People who say it is stupid to cry while watching Helluva Boss or Hazbin Hotel because the writing, etc. is cringe clearly are missing the emotional point of the shows. It is okay to cry at them because damn the shows are about some pretty emotional stuff a lot of the time. Not everyone will cry at the shows but it is not okay to shame people for crying at it just cause you say "it is cringe." Smh

Ykkk

[twisting-echo]

Hi, @gothikaxenon it's me, Twisting-Echo from DA. I just thought I'd give you some more evidence and stories from other people about Nikki1975/Grayluftw.

The links below are what others have shared with me.

[write-helluva-messy-boss]

been following basic tags like "helluva boss" and "helluva [character name]" and i just want to make something clear

these are general tags, and i don't know if this is universal for everyone, but generally i follow these tags for positive and neutral content about the show. i like hearing fan theories and seeing fanart.

what I'm not interested in is people complaining about the show. i happen to enjoy the show and disagree with a lot of the complaints and criticisms i see. plus, if i wanted to find that content, i would look for it, and not in these general tags. but the negative/critical content is literally the only recommended content i have been getting on Tumblr from these tags.

so, just putting it out there: if you're making critical posts, that's fine — but please don't use the general helluva boss tags. please instead use "helluva boss critical" or "helluva [character] critical" or "helluva [ship] critical."

for one, it's actually more organizational and correct in terms of how fandoms tend to tag things. secondly, it makes sure that your content reaches the right people. Tumblr algorithm isn't that smart and has not figured out, even with help, that i don't want to see this kind of post. so please, use the tag system in this way. we have been tagging things like this for years now. and, I'm frankly tired of seeing people endlessly complaining (not even being critical, just complaining with no factual/cited basis) about a show i happen to enjoy. if we use our tagging system to it's fullest, you all can find your community and i can find mine. keep expressing yourself, but please, tag things accordingly.

[cute-little-fly]

People really saw sinsmas and thought that Stolas is not in love with Blitzø now… or that is getting out of love with him… Like, what episode did you watched? People don’t know how interprete a character that is going through depression. Obviously, his vision of love is changing and they can’t be fully together yet, and having confessed anything, but they both know. Like, did they missed the cool ass romantic kiss scene?

[ask-asexual-crystal-gems]

Prime QPR material: canonically would probably have a hard time satisfying each other sexually* due to inherent size differences, but so emotionally close that one can essentially boss the other one around without being perceived as preachy

(TMI *except if vore was somehow a thing for those experiencing it rather than those viewing it like in the real world)

[fizzyrodeo]

Updated Helluva Boss Tierlist (S1-S2)

Since quite a lot has happened with the characters since my first tierlist, I've decided to remake it! The old one is the third shown, for reference. The tiers are slightly different, and I'll also be explaining some of my choices below the cut!

(^^ includes my personal fanon ranking)

(^^ excludes my personal fanon ranking)

(^^ original tierlist)

'Superior in my Fanon'

> i feel like i don't need to say that in my version of hb the dynamics between I.M.P. would be very different. still found family, just a better depiction of it.

> best way to fix Mayberry is to NOT have her end up with the woman she tried to kill both in real life AND after death imo. or at the least, flesh her personality out some more before doing so.

> in my version of hb Paimon isn't different in terms of personality. he's just around more in the current timeline and has more definitive interactions with Stolas.

> i don't remember the name of the guy from the blitzø hate party episode, but while he serves as a good show of stolas' flaws and weaknesses, i'd have preferred if he stood as more of a positive comparison to blitzø, highlighting the latter's flaws. this would include a little more screen time and a show of what exactly led to im and stolas dancing and kissing.

'Win(ners)'

> I do NOT support Crimson's actions. However, he is one of the few solid villains we have left in Helluva Boss (and also I have a thing for villains).

> a lot of people take issue with Sallie Mae for reasons to her gender and how it's portrayed in merch + 'not portrayed sufficiently' in the show but I can't think of a single thing that's wrong with her and how she's written.

'Love'

> y'all are hating on Envy for NOTHING 😭😭😭 i mean hating the design is valid but why are we surprised that it isn't accurate to the sources viv based it on?? this isn't new? and at least Envy isn't an eyesore like some others... but i'm maybe people want more of that?? idk, i feel like they're overhated. i love their design, that's about the only reason they're ranked so high.

'Like'

> yes, i do like Stolas!! he's done a lot of things i don't like but it's part of his development. plus, realizing that he actually gets a lot of lasting consequences in canon (regardless of whether he ignores them or not) made me ease up on him. plus he's a crybaby twink. how could i not like a crybaby twink.

> a lot of the characters in this category are either here for their design or their defining moment. Chaz is a bit of a special case, and so is the hellhound adoption center lady. we're sleeping on Barbie Wire's rehab nurse, she did her job GOOD.

'Idrc'

> not much to say here. every character listed in this tier has failed to captivate my interest and for that, i simply don't think of them. a big point i thought of was "who are they without their defining drama?" and for most of them the answer was "little to nothing".

> there's a few random side characters in this tier. they are only present becuse they're side characters that i figured people would remember, and i wanted to state my opinion on them.

'I don't like them'

> all these characters are here because i either dislike the limited appearance they had, dislike their personality, or have extenuating beef.

> there's so much i dislike about Asmodeus- pretty much the same things i dislike about Beelzebub, but i decided to spare him from the very bottom of the list because he is one of the more actively kinder characters in the show.

[baobhanlore-art]

After watching Unhappy Campers, I think I know what my biggest issue with Helluva Boss Season 2 is and that the jokes ruining tension and lowering the stakes.

In E2: Seeing Stars, the whole joke plotline of Blitz and Stolas in the sitcom made the search for Octavia feel insignificant and made Stolas look like a bad parent for fooling around there. If they'd just split up from Loona and had antics to do with their complicated relationships and their daughters, while Loona eventually found her, with the comedy largely coming from Moxxie and Millie, I feel like that would have been better. Maybe even if after the balcony scene, we extend it and have Blitz and Stolas meet them after Loona and Octavia's conversation. But we didn't.

In E3: Exes and Oohs, we see this happen twice. Once when Moxxie leaves the room and the dildos are all out, which cheapens the traumatic experience that was seeing his Dad, and then when we find out Chaz isn't rich. The last one cheapens the stakes by meaning the conflict now could mostly be resolved with Blitz yelling "Chaz isn't rich!" and then being granted the chance to explain himself. But the joke element ended up ruining the tension and we got a fight scene with Millie that looked phenomenal but would have been better if there were higher stakes.

In E4: Western Energy, Andrealphus's existence and his interactions with Stella that cause them to recall the assassination make the fight against Striker feel cheap and frustrating. They got to a point where they thought they were saving his life but we're actually saving him a few more days in the hospital. It lessened the stakes and tension unnecessarily.

And finally in E5: Unhappy Campers, Millie finds out who the killer is really fast making the whole ordeal unnecessary and annoying. It still would have been funny if we say how Moxxie was going overboard with the ruse without the mystery being solved, and the actions would have felt like they had more purpose, but it limited the stakes and tension.

It honestly feels like insecurity. Like the team are afraid to fully commit to the plotlines they write because instantaneous jokes and a focus on drama would cause people to click away. But we as fans want to see the stakes and drama! I just hate to see dumb jokes prioritised over the aspects of the show so many people loved.

Because regardless if you think the plot decisions are good or not, the interpersonal drama is probably the strongest aspect of the show's writing.