#hatice sultana

[tell-them-the-north-remembers]

The Replacement-Brenna Yovanoff/ East of Eden-John Steinback/ Practical Magic-Alice Hoffman/ Antigone-Sophokles

[awkward-sultana]

Magnificent Century + Evolution of Hürrem's Family (requested by @skynerd157)

[elizabeth-halime]

[palaceoftears]

Something about these two scenes being in the same episode makes me feral

[kosemsultan1606]

Hatice Sultan costume 10/??

[magnificentposting-fabrizioart]

VERY IMPORTANT MATTERS

Top of Topkapi (Tier 2)

This is up to Episode 12 of Season 1.

If you don't see someone here, is because the Top 3 were in the previous poll.

No, Hürrem is not here either because so far she just doesn't register for me due to the character (this is not about the actress at all, btw, as isn't the rest).

Yes these are the valid(e) options.

Feel free and encourage to discusse btw.

Respect the hatunlar tho, of course, or Daye will beat you to death.

[hurrems]

if Hatice has a million haters, I'm one of them. if she has ten haters, I'm one of them. if she has only one hater, it's me. if Hatice has no haters, that means I'm no longer on earth. if the world loves Hatice, then I'm against the world.

[things-i-think-and-junk]

Hit Episode 57. So much got fast forwarded. Ibrahim proves my assumption that he never fully loves anyone as he's more concerned with himself. Ibrahim's affair being revealed is such a pass for me. Hatice makes everything boring.

[haticesultanas]

Sorry to bother you in this account, I would have a question about Ümmügülsüm Sultan, the possible daughter of Ahmed I. The relazione of Angelo Alessandri from 1637, Page 649 says: "Ha il Gran Signore di congionti per sangue quatro sorelle ancora, ma fuori di seraglio, essendo tutte maritate in visiri." And since I am not really speaking italian, I am not sure if "per sangue quatro sorelle" means full-sister or just a way to say sister (and so can mean half sister too). One of my followers - who says he speaks italian - says it means full-sister and confirms that beside Ayse, Fatma and Hanzade there was another full-sister of Murad IV. I mean while I have my doubts, Alderson also lists one Ümmügülsüm (wife of Halil Pasha) based on harem registers, who had the same amount of salary in 1639 as Ayse, Fatma and Hanzade, the daughters of Kösem (and some other women - possible daughters of Murad III had the same amount, while Atike and one Hatice possibly daughters of Ahmed I had less salary). Also, there is the known other register that you also mentioned on ottomanladies page, based on Tezcan: “A privy purse register from 1622 gives the names of five unmarried princesses, who may be daughters of Ahmed, Osman II, and even Mehmed III: Umm-i Külsum, Hanzade, Halime, Fatma, and Akile.” The fact that there was one Ümmügülsüm in 1622 who was still unmarried, and then in 1639 she had the same amount of stipend as Ayse, Fatma, Hanzade and the relazione mentioning that 4 (full)sister thing, maybe suggests that Kösem and Ahmed MAY had another daughter together, Ümmügülsüm? What do you think?

Hello! I guess my askbox on ottomanladies is still closed.

So, your follower is right; what Angelo Alessandri says in his relazione is that Murad IV has four full-blooded sisters who all live outside the palace because they are married. When I read this part, I simply assumed that the fourth princess was Gevherhan but we don’t have any information about her after Recep Pasha’s death in 1632. Then, I assumed he was wrong because it wouldn’t be the first time a European ambassador mistook half-siblings for full-blooded siblings.

About Ümmügülsüm, I have always assumed he was a daughter of Mehmed III’s or Murad III’s. I have never paid attention to her, as I’m sure you know from my posts on ottomanladies.

But you made me curious so I spent some time looking into this.

First, I think you meant Dumas when you mentioned that list based on harem registers because I have found it in Les Perles de Nacre du Sultanate. Alderson doesn’t list an Ümmügülsüm Sultan among Ahmed I’s daughters (unless I somehow missed it).

Secondly, I think there is a problem with this source: on page 62, the register is from February 1649 to February 1650. In Annex A, though, (page 461), she says that the same register is dated February 1639. So what is the truth? February 1639, because the register keeps saying “Şevval 1048”, and that’s February-March 1639 (you can google it). The mistake on page 62 is… weird, though.

Moreover, the list above is somewhat different from the transliteration she put in Annexe A. For example, on page 463 she says that the register says “Hümaşah Sultan merhum Nakkaş Hasan Pasha”, but on the list she put on page 62, the same Hümaşah Sultan is married to one Hüseyin Pasha. I don’t understand why she changed the source without addressing it— or is it just a typing mistake? I hope it is because I think Hümaşah Sultan was truly married to Nakkaş Hasan Pasha: Nakkaş Hasan Pasha was identified as married to one of Ahmed I’s aunts by the Baron de Selignac, and a letter dated 6 October 1642 by a Ragusian diplomat lists among Ibrahim’s aunts one “Humascie sultana moglie di Hasan Pascia [Hümaşah sultan wife of Hasan Pasha]”. In another letter, this one dated 7 July 1648, Hümaşah is identified as “moglie di Nachasc Hasanpascia Humasce sultan vedova [Hümaşah sultan, widow of Nakkaş Hasan Pasha]”.

If Dumas voluntarily changed Hasan Pasha into Hüseyin Pasha then I don’t know why she did it because contemporary evidence suggests that this princess called Hümaşah was Ahmed I’s aunt and therefore Ibrahim’s great-aunt (I won’t fault the Ragusian diplomat for not stating the difference because it wasn’t done often at the time), and was married to Nakkaş Hasan Pasha, who is called “merhum” in the harem register because he was deceased at the time.

Similarly, on page 462, it is listed one “Kameri Sultan merhum Sofi Bayram Pasha”, but on the list on page 62, she is called Fahri. Again, what prompted Dumas to change the wife’s name? Is it because Öztuna says that Fahri/Fahriye Sultan (daughter of Murad III) was married to Sofu Bayram Pasha? Then again, why was she called Kameri in the register? Is it a mistake from the clerk or did she have multiple names? Or did Dumas transliterate her name wrong? Or did she change the princess’ name into Fahri because that’s what Öztuna says? Interestingly, in the family trees in Annex B, she’s called Fahri again. The same Ragusian diplomat above also lists the wife of Bayram Pasha: “Vanni sultana moglie di Soffi Bariam Pascia”; unfortunately I cannot say what Vanni should be because it doesn’t sound like Kameri at all. It could sound like Fahri but… it’s a stretch.

Beyhan Sultan, Safiye Sultan, and Mihrimah Sultan are widows too but it’s difficult to identify them because their husbands are one “Mustafa Pasha”, one “Mehmed Pasha”, and a “Mehmed Pasha from Kefe”. I tried to google this Mehmed Pasha from Kefe and everyone says he was married to Mihrimah Sultan, daughter of Murad III. The problem is the sources of this claim (on those websites) do not say this. The Ragusian letter talks about a Beyhan Sultan married to a “Mustai Pascia” which could be Mustafa Pasha, but this is all I have to say.

I also would like to highlight that the princesses listed in the Ragusian letter are those who received gifts from the Ragusian diplomat so there could have been more, especially aunts.

As for “Atike Sultan Kenan Pasha” (who receives 9,900 aspers per month): she seems to be Ahmed I’s daughter Atike (also confirmed by the Ragusian letter, who lists her among Ibrahim's sister).

Now, about “Ümmügülsüm Sultan Halil Pasha” (who receives 12,900 aspers per month): I still personally maintain that she was an aunt and not a sister. I could not identify her, nor her husband Halil Pasha, but we have to keep in mind that we don’t have all the names of Mehmed III’s daughters. In the Ragusian letter dated 1648, there’s one “moglie di Hersechli Ahmet Pascia Iumi sultan [wife of Hersekli (? it could mean that he comes from Herzegovina) Ahmed Pasha, Iumi Sultan” (Iumi kind of sounds like Ümmi). It’s basically ten years later Dumas' list so she could have changed husband in the meantime but unfortunately, I couldn’t identify “Hersechli Ahmet Pascia”— if someone else has information about him, please do not hesitate to share (with sources, please).

I’m sorry this was so long and unhelpful, I was carried away :(((

EDIT: I have found the Ragusian letters in V. Miović - Per favore della Soltana: Powerful Ottoman Women and Ragusan Diplomats

[reallifesultanas]

Family tree of Ahmed I

Ahmed (1590.04.18. - 1617.11.22.) - Kösem (~1589 - 1651.09.02.)

Mehmed 1605. 03. 08. - 1621. 01. 12.

Ayse ~1606 - 1657

Fatma ~1608 - 1671 (before March)

Hanzade 1609 - 1650.09.

disputed: Selim 1611.06.27.-1611.06.27.

Murad IV 1612.07.27. - 1640.02.08.

Kasim 1614 - 1638.02.17.

Ibrahim 1615.11.05. - 1648.08.18.

Ümmügülsüm ~1616 (possibly) - after 1690

Ahmed (1590.04.18. - 1617.11.22.) - Mahfiruze (~1589 - ~1612)

Osman II 1604.11.03. - 1622.04.20.

disputed: Gevherhan ~1606 - after 1631

disputed: Cihangir 1609

disputed Bayezid 1612. 12. - 1635.07.27.

Ahmed (1590.04.18. - 1617.11.22.) - Unknown concubine(s)

daughter born in 1605 March

Hasan 1612.11.25. - ~1612

Hüseyin 1613.11.14. - 1617

Atike 1614 - 1670

Süleyman 1615 - 1635.07.27.

Abide 1618 - 1648(?)

Orhan (died as a child)

Zahide (died as a child)

Zeynep (died as a child)

Esma (died as a child)

Hatice (died as a child)

Marriages of Ahmed I's daughters:

Gevherhan: - Öküz Kara Mehmed Pasha 1612-1621 * one son (1620) - Topal Recep Pasha 1623-until her own death * Safiye Hanimsultan (~1624-?) - married Mehmed Pasha and was his widow in 1638/9 - married Sadrazam Abaza Siyavuş Pasha 1643-1656

Ayşe: - Nasuh Pasha 1612-1614 - bethroed to Şehit Karakaş Mehmed Pasha 1614 - Müezzinzade Hafiz Ahmed Pasha 1622-1632 * Sultanzade Mustafa Bey 1628-1670 * Sultanzade X - Silahdar Ahmed Pasha 1639-1644 - Voynuk Ahmed Pasha 1645-1649 - Ibşir Mustafa Pasha 1654/5-?

Fatma: - Murtaza Pasha 1622- - Şehid Ali Pasha 1624 - Çatalcali Kapudan Hasan Pasha 1624-1626 * Sultanzade Hasan ~1625 - Kara Mustafa Pasha 1626-? - Sarraç Mustafa Pasha 1629-1630/1 - Kaçanikli Mehmed Pasha 1631 - Canpoladzade Mustafa Pasha 1632-1636 * Sultanzade Hüseyin 1633-1680 * Sultanzade Süleyman 1635-1665 - Koça Yusuf Pasha 1637-1658 * Sultanzade Ömer 1637-after 1670 - Melek Ahmed Pasha 1661-1662 - Kanbur Mustafa Pasha 1663-1666 - Közbekçi Yusuf Pasha 1667

Hanzade - married or bethroed to Murtaza Pasha’s son 1622 - Bayram Agha 1623-1638 * one son - Nakkaş Mustafa Pasha ~1641-until her death * Sultanzade Abdülbaki Bey ~1642-after 1685

Ümmügülsüm - married or bethroed to one pasha in 1626 - Halil Pasha ?-1641/2 - Hersekzade Ahmed Pasha ~1642-1648

Atike - son of Ekmekçizade Ahmed Pasha 1618-? - Sofu Kenan Pasha ~1624-1652 - Doganci Yusuf Pasha 1652-until her death

Theories:

The daughter born in 1605 March being Gevherhan (and then she was not Mahfiruze's daughter).

Hasan being Mahfiruze's not Bayezid and they both died due to complications.

Zeynep being Mahfiruze's daughter as Osman II possibly had a daughter Zeynep (as there are two Zeyneps buried in Ahmed I's türbe), and since Zeynep is not a dynastical name, Osman may named her after his deceased sister. PS: One of the sarcofagies is for a grown woman, which can be a mistake, or maybe Osman's daugter Zeynep reached adulthood (would be strange as until now there is no evidence for an adult sultana called Zeynep during this period).

Identity of Abide: Now it seems that Abide was not a daughter, but an aunt of Ahmed I and so the daughter of Murad III, see more under Murad III's family tree.

[mc-critical]

In E16 both Mahidevran and Hürrem restrain their respective jealousies towards Sadika in opposite ways.

Hürrem, having already realized by this episode that she should act differently than she did before, that scandals won't do her any good (she keeps her goals near and dear to her heart but she also matures along the way; her jealousy still flames in her and she'll let it flame, because she can't ever lose the person who's become her family and security within the harem, but she quenches it when she learns how the people she's jealous of are put against her by her enemies and directs all her efforts more towards the collective threat of these enemies instead, fueling her to outplay them, to cling to what she has and safeguard it from them and for herself more and more), patiently searches for ways to get rid of Sadika and finds one in sending her to Hatice's castle, literally distancing her from herself and the harem. Mahidevran, having been made to fully face that never ending cycle in the harem she has to accept in this exact episode, isn't searching for ways to get rid of her, but keeps her at her service and shows her favor instead by giving her a pendant in her chambers, bringing her closer to herself (a running theme with Mahidevran is her being more eager to be on good terms or at least, to feign good terms, with rivals if they respect her and all associated with her in some way. We see this with Ayşe Hatun to some extent, with Gülfem to an even bigger extent and even with Sadika here, as Mahidevran let out a real smile and let Sadika go only when she complimented Mustafa; it's no wonder in retrospect that Mahidevran demanded respect and submission from Hürrem when she visited her in the dungeon in E02, even claiming that she'll get out if she gives her that. This throughline continues after Mahi and Hafsa's E16 conversation as she not just maintains good relations with every other rival concubine who also respects her, but also starts supporting them, and directs all her efforts towards the individual threat of Hürrem).

Both of them, in fact, try to endear themselves to their rivals in some way for a single scene in E16, lulling them into a false sense of security; but while Mahidevran keeps it all within formality, the pendant being a mere extension of the favor Sadika had before (for saving the princes) of the sultana she's standing in front of and getting orders from right now, Hürrem goes all personal, getting herself closer to Sadika's position by facing her as a fellow comrade in the harem, wanting to learn everything about her and her situation to ponder on it and use it if needed.

[tell-them-the-north-remembers]

-My Hatice...

+The other day, you reminded me of a letter. The first letter you wrote to me. This one. I still keep it.

-Time flies fast.

+And I keep your last letter as well. "My Sultan, if your wish is to divorce me, do not wait! You could not hurt me, even if you kill me. Because... I do not regret my actions. Long ago for your love, I left everything behind and went to Parga. I can do the same and start a new life."

-Hatice...

+I want you to burn this letter Ibrahim. Burn it, now. I want everything you told me to become ash with this letter. Then I'll forget the past and put on that ring. Ibrahim, if you burn this letter I'll forget about it all. For us. For our children. And we'll start a new life.

[awkward-sultana]

Dissociation (v) - A mental process where a person disconnects from their thoughts, feelings, memories, or sense of identity, essentially experiencing a detachment from reality, often as a coping mechanism to deal with overwhelming stress or trauma

[elizabeth-halime]

Artwork of Hürrem Sultan and Turhan Sultan

[kosemsultan1606]

Hatice Sultan costume 13/??

[ottomanladies]

I wish to give an opinion of daughters of Ibrahim. There is a great abyys in lack of prooves to demarcate daughters of Ibrahim, Atike and Gevherhan. At times, I have an opinion that Atike existed, and at another times that she didn’t exist. For now, I favour the other theory, but i will talk one day about that topic more detailed.

Archiv für Kulturgeschichte Band 77 on page 65, that at the very end of reign of Sultan Ibrahim, Valide Sultan received 125 okka per month, daughters of Murad III named Hümaşah and Hatice received 7 okka per month, daughter of Murad III Fahri(han) received 10 okka per month, Kaya Sultan 16 okka per month, daughters of Ibrahim Gevherhan and Beyhan 30 okka per month and daughter of Ibrahim Fatma 50 okka per month.

Why would Gevherhan and Beyhan receive less stipend than Fatma, as Fatma was adopted and raised by Turhan? Btw, Fatma survived her husband, read Sakaoglu (actually, Ulucay proved it first). Also, in Acta et Diplomata Ragusina, Fatma is mentioned in 1658 document as widow of Fazli Pasha, nothing else is said unfortunately…

Anyway, I would claim that Ayşe Sultan binti Ibrahim really existed. See this quote from work The rise of the Köprülü family (p. 129):

For instance, when Prince Mustafa, the first son of Mehmed IV, was born in Edirne Palace in 1664, Ayşe Sultan, Gevherhan Sultan and Beyhan Sultan, sisters of Mehmed IV, were called to Edirne Palace from Topkapı to join in the celebration for the new prince. This summons shows that some members of the sultan’s family still resided in Topkapı Palace after 1663.

I consider her being the own sister of Mehmed IV. Kütükoğlu was only one right, he was married to Ibrahim’s Ayşe. Ahmed’s Ayşe really died in 1656, in document Vakfiler su defteri there is one document mentioning Ayşe Sultan died before 1660 (if I recall). Her last husband was Ibsir Mustafa Pasha. Sadly, Ibrahim’s Ayşe was wrongly confused also as Ibsir’s wife. Her one and only marriage was with Suleiman Pasha Malatuk (Ermeni). Alderson confused her with Murad IV’s daughter.

In work Atik şikâyet defteri (7 numaralı H.1081-1083/ M.1671-1672) transkripsiyon, Mehmed IV wrote several letters in 1671/72 to his sisters Ayşe and Gevherhan, and their husbands. He doesn’t refer them as hemşirem, but it’s them.

Anyway, in work OSMANLI DEVLETİ’NİN 1660-1661 (HİCRİ 1070-1071) TARİHLİ SEFER BÜTÇESİ  (pp. 23-24), there were provided annual payments of some Ottoman princesses in 1661. This payment list does not refer to all of the Sultanas who were knowly alive in 1661, as Ahmed’s daughter Fatma Sultan for example. Only some of them.:

Hâshâ-i hazret-i Valide Sultan 12.000.000

Hâshâ-i paşmaklık-ı Ayşe Sultan 2.595.333

 Hâshâ-i paşmaklık-ı Fatıma Sultan 2.005.000

 Hâshâ-i paşmaklık-ı Rukiyye Sultan 1.235.000

Hâshâ-i paşmaklık-ı Safiye Sultan 1.005.000

Hâshâ-i paşmaklık-ı Beyhan Sultan 1.560.000 24

Hâshâ-i paşmaklık-ı Gevherhan Sultan 1.520.000

Hâshâ-i Ayşe sultan haseki-i merhum Gazi Sultan Murad Han aleyhi’r-rahmeti ve’l-gufran 100.000

Hâshâ-i paşmaklık-ı Ümmi Sultan 295.000

Hâshâ-i paşmaklık-ı Sâime Sultan 285.000

Hâshâ-i temlik-i merhum Kaya Sultan 1.250.000

See how Mehmed’s cousins (Murad IV’s daughters) and sisters (especially) received high payments, in difference to his aunt Ümmi Sultan and his great-great-aunt Saime Sultan. But, you would notice his sisters Ayşe and Fatma received the highest salaries; Ayşe the very highest as own sister, Fatma little lesser as adopted sister.

Sorry for the long wait, I have been incredibly busy these past few months.

About Ayşe binti Ibrahim, I would refer to this post, in which @rhaenahanzades found that the one married to Ermeni/Malatyalı Süleyman Pasha was Ayşe binti Ahmed I. I’ll paste the citation again, here:

“Soliman passa, Visir della Porta. Ritrouai anche alla Corte per Visir della Porta il Sr Soliman passa, stato un tempo Visir Supremo, dal quale fui all'udienza e lo presentai secondo le comissioni, il quale nell'honorarmi e trattarmi bene non uolse mostrarsi meno cortese degl'altri, offerendosi con molta humanità per ogni occorenza de publici seruitii. Questo Sr è assai noto all'EE. VV. per rellationi di diuersi loro ambassadori, onde a me non occorre tediarle in detto proposito. Dirò solo questo, che non le uol male e che sia personaggio da potterle fauorire, essendo ben uoluto da S. Mtà, col quale è ancor congiunto col uincolo di parentella, mentre la sua zia Aisce sultana tiene per moglie.” (“Dubrovačka akta i povelje” vol. 3, pages 661 and 662)

I believe Ayşe binti Ibrahim died pretty young and therefore never entered the Ragusian ambassadors’ lists of gifts.

As for Fatma binti Ibrahim, I must have missed when it was decided that she had been adopted by Turhan because I have never heard of this.

About the list of payments you’ve found, I’m not sure those princesses are identified correctly:

I have identified them based on seniority and the amount of money, which seems to me to be what their lands yield. I don’t think these are stipends.

Anyway, if we put the princesses in order of amount of money, I think it’d be easier to understand who is who:

Ayşe and Fatma stand at the top of the hierarchy because a) they’re older and b) they must have amassed a great amount of land during their lives. After them we have the sisters of the reigning sultan (Mehmed IV), so Beyhan and Gevherhan (possibly in order of birth??); then we have Murad IV’s daughters (Kaya is mentioned as deceased because she was at the time), and lastly we have two minor princesses: Saime, a daughter of Murad III and a non-haseki concubine, and Ümmi, either a daughter of Ahmed I or of Murad III as well. I say this because I think their small amount of land means they were not daughters of Haseki Sultans: if Ümmi is Ayşe and Fatma’s sister that’s the only reason she would possess less land than them.