#hatice sultana

[tell-them-the-north-remembers]

The Replacement-Brenna Yovanoff/ East of Eden-John Steinback/ Practical Magic-Alice Hoffman/ Antigone-Sophokles

[awkward-sultana]

Magnificent Century + Evolution of Hürrem's Family (requested by @skynerd157)

[elizabeth-halime]

[palaceoftears]

Something about these two scenes being in the same episode makes me feral

[kosemsultan1606]

Hatice Sultan costume 10/??

[magnificentposting-fabrizioart]

VERY IMPORTANT MATTERS

Top of Topkapi (Tier 2)

This is up to Episode 12 of Season 1.

If you don't see someone here, is because the Top 3 were in the previous poll.

No, Hürrem is not here either because so far she just doesn't register for me due to the character (this is not about the actress at all, btw, as isn't the rest).

Yes these are the valid(e) options.

Feel free and encourage to discusse btw.

Respect the hatunlar tho, of course, or Daye will beat you to death.

[hurrems]

if Hatice has a million haters, I'm one of them. if she has ten haters, I'm one of them. if she has only one hater, it's me. if Hatice has no haters, that means I'm no longer on earth. if the world loves Hatice, then I'm against the world.

[things-i-think-and-junk]

Hit Episode 57. So much got fast forwarded. Ibrahim proves my assumption that he never fully loves anyone as he's more concerned with himself. Ibrahim's affair being revealed is such a pass for me. Hatice makes everything boring.

[haticesultanas]

Sorry to bother you in this account, I would have a question about Ümmügülsüm Sultan, the possible daughter of Ahmed I. The relazione of Angelo Alessandri from 1637, Page 649 says: "Ha il Gran Signore di congionti per sangue quatro sorelle ancora, ma fuori di seraglio, essendo tutte maritate in visiri." And since I am not really speaking italian, I am not sure if "per sangue quatro sorelle" means full-sister or just a way to say sister (and so can mean half sister too). One of my followers - who says he speaks italian - says it means full-sister and confirms that beside Ayse, Fatma and Hanzade there was another full-sister of Murad IV. I mean while I have my doubts, Alderson also lists one Ümmügülsüm (wife of Halil Pasha) based on harem registers, who had the same amount of salary in 1639 as Ayse, Fatma and Hanzade, the daughters of Kösem (and some other women - possible daughters of Murad III had the same amount, while Atike and one Hatice possibly daughters of Ahmed I had less salary). Also, there is the known other register that you also mentioned on ottomanladies page, based on Tezcan: “A privy purse register from 1622 gives the names of five unmarried princesses, who may be daughters of Ahmed, Osman II, and even Mehmed III: Umm-i Külsum, Hanzade, Halime, Fatma, and Akile.” The fact that there was one Ümmügülsüm in 1622 who was still unmarried, and then in 1639 she had the same amount of stipend as Ayse, Fatma, Hanzade and the relazione mentioning that 4 (full)sister thing, maybe suggests that Kösem and Ahmed MAY had another daughter together, Ümmügülsüm? What do you think?

Hello! I guess my askbox on ottomanladies is still closed.

So, your follower is right; what Angelo Alessandri says in his relazione is that Murad IV has four full-blooded sisters who all live outside the palace because they are married. When I read this part, I simply assumed that the fourth princess was Gevherhan but we don’t have any information about her after Recep Pasha’s death in 1632. Then, I assumed he was wrong because it wouldn’t be the first time a European ambassador mistook half-siblings for full-blooded siblings.

About Ümmügülsüm, I have always assumed he was a daughter of Mehmed III’s or Murad III’s. I have never paid attention to her, as I’m sure you know from my posts on ottomanladies.

But you made me curious so I spent some time looking into this.

First, I think you meant Dumas when you mentioned that list based on harem registers because I have found it in Les Perles de Nacre du Sultanate. Alderson doesn’t list an Ümmügülsüm Sultan among Ahmed I’s daughters (unless I somehow missed it).

Secondly, I think there is a problem with this source: on page 62, the register is from February 1649 to February 1650. In Annex A, though, (page 461), she says that the same register is dated February 1639. So what is the truth? February 1639, because the register keeps saying “Şevval 1048”, and that’s February-March 1639 (you can google it). The mistake on page 62 is… weird, though.

Moreover, the list above is somewhat different from the transliteration she put in Annexe A. For example, on page 463 she says that the register says “Hümaşah Sultan merhum Nakkaş Hasan Pasha”, but on the list she put on page 62, the same Hümaşah Sultan is married to one Hüseyin Pasha. I don’t understand why she changed the source without addressing it— or is it just a typing mistake? I hope it is because I think Hümaşah Sultan was truly married to Nakkaş Hasan Pasha: Nakkaş Hasan Pasha was identified as married to one of Ahmed I’s aunts by the Baron de Selignac, and a letter dated 6 October 1642 by a Ragusian diplomat lists among Ibrahim’s aunts one “Humascie sultana moglie di Hasan Pascia [Hümaşah sultan wife of Hasan Pasha]”. In another letter, this one dated 7 July 1648, Hümaşah is identified as “moglie di Nachasc Hasanpascia Humasce sultan vedova [Hümaşah sultan, widow of Nakkaş Hasan Pasha]”.

If Dumas voluntarily changed Hasan Pasha into Hüseyin Pasha then I don’t know why she did it because contemporary evidence suggests that this princess called Hümaşah was Ahmed I’s aunt and therefore Ibrahim’s great-aunt (I won’t fault the Ragusian diplomat for not stating the difference because it wasn’t done often at the time), and was married to Nakkaş Hasan Pasha, who is called “merhum” in the harem register because he was deceased at the time.

Similarly, on page 462, it is listed one “Kameri Sultan merhum Sofi Bayram Pasha”, but on the list on page 62, she is called Fahri. Again, what prompted Dumas to change the wife’s name? Is it because Öztuna says that Fahri/Fahriye Sultan (daughter of Murad III) was married to Sofu Bayram Pasha? Then again, why was she called Kameri in the register? Is it a mistake from the clerk or did she have multiple names? Or did Dumas transliterate her name wrong? Or did she change the princess’ name into Fahri because that’s what Öztuna says? Interestingly, in the family trees in Annex B, she’s called Fahri again. The same Ragusian diplomat above also lists the wife of Bayram Pasha: “Vanni sultana moglie di Soffi Bariam Pascia”; unfortunately I cannot say what Vanni should be because it doesn’t sound like Kameri at all. It could sound like Fahri but… it’s a stretch.

Beyhan Sultan, Safiye Sultan, and Mihrimah Sultan are widows too but it’s difficult to identify them because their husbands are one “Mustafa Pasha”, one “Mehmed Pasha”, and a “Mehmed Pasha from Kefe”. I tried to google this Mehmed Pasha from Kefe and everyone says he was married to Mihrimah Sultan, daughter of Murad III. The problem is the sources of this claim (on those websites) do not say this. The Ragusian letter talks about a Beyhan Sultan married to a “Mustai Pascia” which could be Mustafa Pasha, but this is all I have to say.

I also would like to highlight that the princesses listed in the Ragusian letter are those who received gifts from the Ragusian diplomat so there could have been more, especially aunts.

As for “Atike Sultan Kenan Pasha” (who receives 9,900 aspers per month): she seems to be Ahmed I’s daughter Atike (also confirmed by the Ragusian letter, who lists her among Ibrahim's sister).

Now, about “Ümmügülsüm Sultan Halil Pasha” (who receives 12,900 aspers per month): I still personally maintain that she was an aunt and not a sister. I could not identify her, nor her husband Halil Pasha, but we have to keep in mind that we don’t have all the names of Mehmed III’s daughters. In the Ragusian letter dated 1648, there’s one “moglie di Hersechli Ahmet Pascia Iumi sultan [wife of Hersekli (? it could mean that he comes from Herzegovina) Ahmed Pasha, Iumi Sultan” (Iumi kind of sounds like Ümmi). It’s basically ten years later Dumas' list so she could have changed husband in the meantime but unfortunately, I couldn’t identify “Hersechli Ahmet Pascia”— if someone else has information about him, please do not hesitate to share (with sources, please).

I’m sorry this was so long and unhelpful, I was carried away :(((

EDIT: I have found the Ragusian letters in V. Miović - Per favore della Soltana: Powerful Ottoman Women and Ragusan Diplomats

[reallifesultanas]

Family tree of Ahmed I

Ahmed (1590.04.18. - 1617.11.22.) - Kösem (~1589 - 1651.09.02.)

Mehmed 1605. 03. 08. - 1621. 01. 12.

Ayse ~1606 - 1657

Fatma ~1608 - 1671 (before March)

Hanzade 1609 - 1650.09.

disputed: Selim 1611.06.27.-1611.06.27.

Murad IV 1612.07.27. - 1640.02.08.

Kasim 1614 - 1638.02.17.

Ibrahim 1615.11.05. - 1648.08.18.

Ümmügülsüm ~1616 (possibly) - after 1690

Ahmed (1590.04.18. - 1617.11.22.) - Mahfiruze (~1589 - ~1612)

Osman II 1604.11.03. - 1622.04.20.

disputed: Gevherhan ~1606 - after 1631

disputed: Cihangir 1609

disputed Bayezid 1612. 12. - 1635.07.27.

Ahmed (1590.04.18. - 1617.11.22.) - Unknown concubine(s)

daughter born in 1605 March

Hasan 1612.11.25. - ~1612

Hüseyin 1613.11.14. - 1617

Atike 1614 - 1670

Süleyman 1615 - 1635.07.27.

Abide 1618 - 1648(?)

Orhan (died as a child)

Zahide (died as a child)

Zeynep (died as a child)

Esma (died as a child)

Hatice (died as a child)

Marriages of Ahmed I's daughters:

Gevherhan: - Öküz Kara Mehmed Pasha 1612-1621 * one son (1620) - Topal Recep Pasha 1623-until her own death * Safiye Hanimsultan (~1624-?) - married Mehmed Pasha and was his widow in 1638/9 - married Sadrazam Abaza Siyavuş Pasha 1643-1656

Ayşe: - Nasuh Pasha 1612-1614 - bethroed to Şehit Karakaş Mehmed Pasha 1614 - Müezzinzade Hafiz Ahmed Pasha 1622-1632 * Sultanzade Mustafa Bey 1628-1670 * Sultanzade X - Silahdar Ahmed Pasha 1639-1644 - Voynuk Ahmed Pasha 1645-1649 - Ibşir Mustafa Pasha 1654/5-?

Fatma: - Murtaza Pasha 1622- - Şehid Ali Pasha 1624 - Çatalcali Kapudan Hasan Pasha 1624-1626 * Sultanzade Hasan ~1625 - Kara Mustafa Pasha 1626-? - Sarraç Mustafa Pasha 1629-1630/1 - Kaçanikli Mehmed Pasha 1631 - Canpoladzade Mustafa Pasha 1632-1636 * Sultanzade Hüseyin 1633-1680 * Sultanzade Süleyman 1635-1665 - Koça Yusuf Pasha 1637-1658 * Sultanzade Ömer 1637-after 1670 - Melek Ahmed Pasha 1661-1662 - Kanbur Mustafa Pasha 1663-1666 - Közbekçi Yusuf Pasha 1667

Hanzade - married or bethroed to Murtaza Pasha’s son 1622 - Bayram Agha 1623-1638 * one son - Nakkaş Mustafa Pasha ~1641-until her death * Sultanzade Abdülbaki Bey ~1642-after 1685

Ümmügülsüm - married or bethroed to one pasha in 1626 - Halil Pasha ?-1641/2 - Hersekzade Ahmed Pasha ~1642-1648

Atike - son of Ekmekçizade Ahmed Pasha 1618-? - Sofu Kenan Pasha ~1624-1652 - Doganci Yusuf Pasha 1652-until her death

Theories:

The daughter born in 1605 March being Gevherhan (and then she was not Mahfiruze's daughter).

Hasan being Mahfiruze's not Bayezid and they both died due to complications.

Zeynep being Mahfiruze's daughter as Osman II possibly had a daughter Zeynep (as there are two Zeyneps buried in Ahmed I's türbe), and since Zeynep is not a dynastical name, Osman may named her after his deceased sister. PS: One of the sarcofagies is for a grown woman, which can be a mistake, or maybe Osman's daugter Zeynep reached adulthood (would be strange as until now there is no evidence for an adult sultana called Zeynep during this period).

Identity of Abide: Now it seems that Abide was not a daughter, but an aunt of Ahmed I and so the daughter of Murad III, see more under Murad III's family tree.

[mc-critical]

In E16 both Mahidevran and Hürrem restrain their respective jealousies towards Sadika in opposite ways.

Hürrem, having already realized by this episode that she should act differently than she did before, that scandals won't do her any good (she keeps her goals near and dear to her heart but she also matures along the way; her jealousy still flames in her and she'll let it flame, because she can't ever lose the person who's become her family and security within the harem, but she quenches it when she learns how the people she's jealous of are put against her by her enemies and directs all her efforts more towards the collective threat of these enemies instead, fueling her to outplay them, to cling to what she has and safeguard it from them and for herself more and more), patiently searches for ways to get rid of Sadika and finds one in sending her to Hatice's castle, literally distancing her from herself and the harem. Mahidevran, having been made to fully face that never ending cycle in the harem she has to accept in this exact episode, isn't searching for ways to get rid of her, but keeps her at her service and shows her favor instead by giving her a pendant in her chambers, bringing her closer to herself (a running theme with Mahidevran is her being more eager to be on good terms or at least, to feign good terms, with rivals if they respect her and all associated with her in some way. We see this with Ayşe Hatun to some extent, with Gülfem to an even bigger extent and even with Sadika here, as Mahidevran let out a real smile and let Sadika go only when she complimented Mustafa; it's no wonder in retrospect that Mahidevran demanded respect and submission from Hürrem when she visited her in the dungeon in E02, even claiming that she'll get out if she gives her that. This throughline continues after Mahi and Hafsa's E16 conversation as she not just maintains good relations with every other rival concubine who also respects her, but also starts supporting them, and directs all her efforts towards the individual threat of Hürrem).

Both of them, in fact, try to endear themselves to their rivals in some way for a single scene in E16, lulling them into a false sense of security; but while Mahidevran keeps it all within formality, the pendant being a mere extension of the favor Sadika had before (for saving the princes) of the sultana she's standing in front of and getting orders from right now, Hürrem goes all personal, getting herself closer to Sadika's position by facing her as a fellow comrade in the harem, wanting to learn everything about her and her situation to ponder on it and use it if needed.

[tell-them-the-north-remembers]

-My Hatice...

+The other day, you reminded me of a letter. The first letter you wrote to me. This one. I still keep it.

-Time flies fast.

+And I keep your last letter as well. "My Sultan, if your wish is to divorce me, do not wait! You could not hurt me, even if you kill me. Because... I do not regret my actions. Long ago for your love, I left everything behind and went to Parga. I can do the same and start a new life."

-Hatice...

+I want you to burn this letter Ibrahim. Burn it, now. I want everything you told me to become ash with this letter. Then I'll forget the past and put on that ring. Ibrahim, if you burn this letter I'll forget about it all. For us. For our children. And we'll start a new life.

[awkward-sultana]

Magnificent Century + Costumes in 1.22: The Fury

[elizabeth-halime]

Artwork of Hürrem Sultan and Turhan Sultan

[kosemsultan1606]

Hatice Sultan costume 13/??

[thevampiricnihal]

You probably talked abt this but when do you think Ibo actually fell for Nigar

I actually didn’t talk about it directly.

Before answering this question, I will add two disclaimers:

1) This will be a purely Watsonian answer. Of course Doylistically neither Nigar nor Ibrahim showed much interest in each other for the first 16 episodes of the show because the writers probably didn’t think of making them a Thing before Episode 17. I will ignore this reality and will come up with an in-universe answer.

2) I will assume that Ibrahim fell for Nigar at some point before their affair. I won’t explore the possibility that he never ever fell for her and only got it up thinking of how hurt he was by Hatice’s words. My blog, my rules, my reading.

So, let’s list the possibilities:

1- He was always secretly attracted to her.

Not very likely, but it is possibly supported by him dragging her by the arm in Episode 6, tending to use her as his special Harem informant, teasing her in a weird familiar way in Episode 7, and the absolute randomness of him caressing her cheek in Episode 17. There is absolutely nothing supporting a full-blown crush, but you can read a slight attraction into his actions if you want to.

2- In Episode 17, right before randomly caressing her cheek, due to the last-minute regret of marrying a Sultana. Maybe he thought “Shucks, this one was attractive too, isn’t it a pity that I can never be with another woman ever again?”. So his attraction to her might have started at that moment, because he tends to like what he cannot have. This is possibly supported by him being nicer and more touchy-feely with her in the next few episodes.

3- He fell for her in some moment between his marriage to Hatice in Episode 17 and Nigar’s attempted kiss scene in Episode 21. He could have been disappointed with his marriage with Hatice and also may have subconsciously registered Nigar’s crush and returned it. Again this might be supported by him being nicer to her in these episodes.

4- He fell for her while consoling her in Episode 21. They were definitely having “a moment” there, he praised her, he was in awe of her, he wiped her tears with his finger. It was a romantic scene. Maybe he got impacted by the usually put-together Nigar cracking under pressure and connected with her through their common slave backgrounds and fell for her.

5- Her attempting to kiss him made him lowkey obsessed with her and he began to fall for her. This is supported by him getting seriously jealous and mad at the prospect of her having a relationship with Leo in Episode 23 and getting very touchy with her in that scene: Putting their heads together, pinching her lips, touching her breast while taking the letter, completely ignoring her personal space, choking her extremely unnecessarily in a way that reminds one of boys pulling the hair of the girls they like, caressing her face after Leo’s death. He seems to respect her less than he used to, but he is clearly attracted to her at this point. I think this is the interpretation that I subscribe to the most.

6- He might have fallen for her after Leo’s death. In this interpretation the points in the previous item of this list were merely him manipulating her, but after Leo’s death he was impressed with her. This is supported by him being more obviously flirtatious with her in Episode 27. I like this one a bit since it is very “hunter gets hunted”. He merely wanted to manipulate Nigar’s crush but accidentally fell for her.

7- After his victory in Mohacs he got an overblown ego and started to get entitled to being with women other than Hatice. When the first woman he saw after a long time of being away at war was Nigar, he started to get attracted to her. Again supported by the flirtatious behavior in Episode 27. Hatice being heavily pregnant might have helped.

8- After Hatice’s insult in Episode 29, he started to look around and to redirect his romantic energies to the other woman in love with him and fell for her. This is probably the interpretation Ibrahim himself would go with.

9- He fell for her after they had sex in Episode 35. The sex was simply too good and he fell in love.

10- Somewhere between Episodes 35 and 41 he got impressed with her obsession with him and started to fall for her. Maybe it was her suicide letter. He tried to search for ways to make her his mistress. His weird smile at the prospect of marrying her to Matrakçı and him being rather curious about Nigar’s reaction to this marriage supports this.

11- He fell when she helped him with the poisoned arrow incident in Episode 43. He felt that he had someone to help him, someone he can truly rely on. His obsession with her “healing hands” might be a reference to this.

12- He fell when she kissed him and “healed” him at that cave in Episode 44. This too would fit in with the obsession with the “healing hands”. He saw a vision of his mother too when she kissed him which is super weird but fitting in an “Oedipal” way. Later in the episode he gets teary-eyed and demands Hatice to play him one of his “mother’s tunes” and reminisces about his childhood while it is playing. He also seems truly upset about Nigar’s impending marriage at the same scene. He immediately goes and tells Matrakçı to divorce Nigar and at the end of Episode 44 he officially starts the affair. This would fit in with Nigar being a representative of his “past”, of “Theo”. We can even get weirder and speculate his mother looking like Nigar.

But yes, I firmly believe that by the start of Episode 45 (the “wedding” night) Ibrahim is in love with Nigar in his own peculiar way.

I think all of these twelve points are valid to interpret as the moment he fell for her.

I think he became strongly attracted to her during points 1-5, and started to fall in love with her during points 6-12.