#guidao

[myblurryreality]

I see this a lot in fics, especially ones that use demon cultivation versus ghost cultivation, but Wei Wuxian's cultivation isn't easy. I keep seeing people write it like it is some easy thing that people were doing in droves, but other than certain talismans, we aren't given any indication that anybody else learned how to use Guidao. It takes a certain level of mental fortitude, empathy, respect, humbleness and discipline to achieve to do even a tenth of what Wei Wuxian does.

[esoteric-oracle]

Y'all, friendly reminder that Wei Wuxian was not actually a demonic cultivator. I honestly found it shocking how prevalent the misconception that he uses demonic cultivation is, and how casually people throw the term around. His title as “Mo Dao Zu Shi” is intentionally misleading, as Wei Wuxian himself states many times in the novel that he does guidao  - the Ghost path.

This fact is probably more obvious to those who've read more xianxia novels (especially for Chinese readers, whom MDZS was geared towards), where demonic cultivation is a pretty common trope. Classically, “demonic cultivation” involves actual demonic actions, (ie. eating another cultivator’s golden core) - and MXTX deliberately used a subversion of that trope. Demonic cultivation in MDZS would require demons - something heavily lampshaded when Lan Qiren asks Wei Wuxian the difference between yao, mo, gui, and guai in the Cloud Recesses Study Arc. MXTX literally spoonfed the difference between demonic and ghost cultivation to readers in this scene, but I still see people perpetuating the belief that he was an actual demonic cultivator.

Demons come from living humans, so in the context of MDZS, the only true demonic cultivator we saw was Xue Yang, who use living corpses. Wei Wuxian only ever used the dead and resentful ghosts to do his bidding. The title of MDZS is a deliberate misnomer meant to act as commentary on how easily wrongful rumours and slanders spread, especially given how many criticisms tossed Wei Wuxian's way weren't even accurate - and somehow, 95% of readers fell for the same trap.

It's even worse how the official 7Seas translation perpetuates this misconception, by using "demonic" and modao to refer to Wei Wuxian's cultivation when he explicitly refers to his cultivation as guidao in the ExR translations and original text.

[scrivenger-grimgar]

MDZS headcanon time! WWX’s guidao songs all have names, just like lan music!

[Settling] listening to the spirits and consoling them, offering kindness and compassion to let them calm (its the guidao equivalent to [Calming], ie “putting a toddler in time out until they behave properly”).

[Catharsis] asking or directing spirits to fight for the player, to vent their frustration in a controlled setting.

[Agitation] stirring up residual or ambient yin qi for use, creating an oppressive atmosphere.

[Askance] thinking specific questions allow for spirits to come forward and give relevant information.

[Guiding] mentally marking an individual or set of individuals to be attacked/targeted.

[Locative] asking spirit to look for a person, place, or thing.

[Agony] directing spirits to mentally torment targets.

[Distillation] to cast off smaller grievances and isolate large grievances.

[Mischief] to play subtle tricks on targets, destroying objects, disturbing order, and hexing things.

[Awakening] mass corpse controlling song.

[Calling] to guide a spirit to possess a physical object, like ceramic dolls, corpses, paper men, or puppets.

[Invitation] to invite a spiritual cognition to inhabit a compatible corpse.

[Respite] telling spirits to not harm.

[asksythe]

I read your tweet on how Wei Ying’s Guidao is orthodox cultivation based on real Guidao and that it’s descended from Bashu witchcraft. I’m very interested in that. Can you elaborate on it? What parts of WWX’s Guidao are based on real-life folklore? I’ve also seen people talk about how his cultivation is bad because it locks souls in their dead bodies. That doesn’t sound too credible to me, but I don’t know enough to be sure. 

Hmm… I’m not sure what you want me to elaborate on exactly. It’s a lot of materials to cover. Dry materials at that.

In any case, Guidao 鬼道 (Path of the Dead, Ghost Path) is a real-life orthodox cultivation. WWX’s Ghost Path, aside from sharing the name, has two main aspects that draw directly from real-life basis: 1/ the summoning, nurturing, and utilizing of ghosts or wraiths (in the novel, those would be the ghost lady and the ghost child that killed Wang Lingjiao and Wen Zhuliu. In the Donghua, they are represented as ghost brides), and 2/ commanding fierce corpses.

These two aspects are drawn from two different sources.

I. Maoshan Sect’s Guidao:

As I mentioned in the tweet, the ghost path belongs to one of the three main fulu orthodox schools of Daoism: the Maoshan Sect (the other two being Quanzhen and Zhengyi)

The earliest mentions of Ghost Path are in Han and Jin history records as well as the Three Kingdoms: Zhang Lu biography texts. These texts talk of a Daoist named Zhang Lingzhi, whose Daoism is called Guidao 鬼道. Zhang Lingzhi taught the people the way of ghosts and dao and raised an army. His soldiers and generals were called ghost soldiers and ghost generals. Zhang Lingzhi’s Daoism was itself descended from Bashu ethnic group witchcraft. Zhang Lingzhi founded the 天师道 Tianshidao School.

(Citation: Sichuan Academy of Social Sciences - “巴蜀的“鬼道”如何变成了道教?” - How did Bashu’s ghost path become Taoism? http://www.sass.cn/912/default.aspx If you want to dig deeper, you can contact the academy directly for their research paper.)

Tianshidao School underwent several name changes over the year. To this day, they are known under the name (or descended, as some would say) Maoshan Sect in Jiangsu Province.

Maoshan sect has four major specialties: talisman, array, sorcery, and the nurturing of ghost familiars. After the cultural revolution, Maoshan sect lost a lot of its scriptures and relics. But it has been around for literally thousands of years. So there are still things there. It’s not the titan it used to be, but it’s still very much a cultural icon. There are numerous movies, books, and games that draw from Maoshan history and legends. One of them happens to be a movie cited as MXTX’s inspiration for aspects of MDZS in the recent Subaru magazine.

(Mr. Vampire, the movie cited in Subaru magazine features the adventure of a Maoshan Daoist)

II. Tujia 土家族 ethnic group’s stiff corpse driving sorcery - Hunan:

The other aspect of WWX’s ghost path: the commanding of dead corpses by a warlock. In the same Subaru interview, MXTX also talked of folk legends of Jiangshi (stiff corpse, or commonly translated as Chinese hopping vampire) serving as the basis for her fierce corpse, ranging from things like general abilities, toxicity, and tricks like using rice gruel to cure their poison.

Jiangshi has been around since the Ming dynasty, but tales of warlock with the ability to command them originate from the Tujia ethnic group in Hunan.

A jiangshi warlock process the corpses, plaster them with paper talismans to restrain their ferocity, tie them in a row, and leads them using a bell that the warlock continuously rings.

(Hoppy hoppy! It's edgiest conga train!)

Well, I don’t think I need to point out the similarity between the real-life Tujia warlock and WWX’s corpse commanding ability.

This specific sorcery was created in a time of war, when young men died in far-off lands. Their families, wanting to bury them in their home soil, would pay a warlock to go fetch their corpses and walk these corpses all the way back to their home province.

These legends might seem very fantastic but the corpse walking part is a very real job that still existed until the last 50 years. It’s featured in Liao Yiwu’s real-life journalism record “The Corpse Walker”

(It's a really thrilling read. I got the physical copy over 13 years ago while I was in my last year at university. I recommend it.)

III. How does Tujia warlock (and WWX) supposedly command corpses?

Regarding the whole, did WWX lock people’s souls inside their dead bodies. Uh…. I don’t think so.

Why?

Because Chinese beliefs about souls are different from Western beliefs. In Chinese lore, a person has three souls and seven spirits (三魂七魄). The three souls represent the positive aspects of a person, with one soul literally being a divine spark. The seven spirits represent earthly taints and degradations and are bound to the body. When a person dies, the three souls will go to the heavens, the next life, and the underworld, respectively. The seven spirits, on the other hand, dissipate after death after 49 days.

This belief is shared in other Sinosphere nations as well and is featured in other media franchises. If you read Inuyasha, you will remember the Jewel of Four Souls and the Four Souls concept being a close relative to three souls seven spirits. In Vietnam, there is folklore of Ba Hồn Bảy Vía and rituals on how to call a person's soul home.

It’s these seven spirits that create Jiangshi. If the spirits do not completely dissipate, the corpse turns into a Jiangshi, a literal life vampire that has only the worst aspect of the dead person and who is forever hungering for life energy. It is these seven spirits that a Tujia warlock (and WWX) controls.

When you have this context, you can put the creation of Wen Ning in a different perspective, and why is it that it's such a big deal he retains his consciousness as a corpse.

(Citation: https://baike.baidu.com/item/%E5%83%B5%E5%B0%B8/80733

[bookworm-faolanne]

Demonic vs Ghostly in MXTX

from what i've read in the majority of fanfics (especially MDZS) I have headcanoned this about the two paths in comparison to each other-

Modao (the demonic path), when practiced by humans, is a parasitic practice that preys on the living. (especially likely in MDZS, SVSSS, & PDIW (TGCF not relevant at this time for this as much as I love it))

Guidao (the ghostly path) is a more cathartic-revenge-for-the-dead/persuasive route that is almost symbiotic with the already (restless) dead. yes, it uses resentment/resentful energy, WWX does not seem like a person who'd wake up the dead who have no resentment and are at peace.

[twilightarc-gm]

Guidao in MDZS, Quotes

🖤 Okay so you know the discourse is hopping, now I wanted to slide in with the full excerpt from the official EN novels of MDZS. Alot has been said about the cultural nuance with how certain Xianxia cultivators treat the dead.

But I specifically wanted to address how guidao isn't about "peacefully" anything.

🖤 Here is the passage that was cited by another Commenter With Opinions. Some of the fluff pulled out (noted with [...]) and most relevant passages in bold for consideration: vol 1 chap 4

[...] There is an executioner who executed hundreds while alive. His parents and wife are alive and well. He was murdered in town, his corpse lying in open air for seven days, brewing resentment. He now haunts and perpetrates violence. What is to be done?” 

[...]  Murdered in town, a corpse in the open air for seven days—it was the very definition of a major malicious ghost, a great fierce corpse, super difficult to handle. 

[...]  “First, deliverance; second, suppression; third, obliteration.  “Confer with his family and endeavor to learn how to fulfill his dying wish; one must absolve him of his obsession in order to ensure he is released. If the attempt proves futile, then one must suppress him with decision and with force. If his crimes are excessively heinous and his resentment still does not disperse, his existence cannot be tolerated; in this case he must be eradicated. In discharging duty, cultivators must heed this ordering without error.”  [...]  Wei Wuxian said, “Although ‘deliverance’ is the first step, deliverance is often impossible. ‘Fulfill his wish, absolve his attachment’ is easier said than done. If his wish is for a new set of clothes, then sure. But if it’s to kill an entire family for revenge, then what is to be done?”  Lan Wangji repeated, “Deliverance is supplemented by suppression as required. Obliterate when necessary.”  Wei Wuxian smiled at the response. “What a waste of resources.” After a pause, he continued, “It wasn’t that I didn’t know the answer, I was just thinking of a fourth option.”  “I have never heard of any fourth option,” Lan Qiren said.  “This executioner died a horrible death, so him transforming into a fierce corpse is inevitable,” Wei Wuxian said. “Since he executed hundreds whilst alive, why not dig up the graves of those hundreds? Awaken their resentment, fuse their skulls, and have them fight the fierce corpse…”  Lan Wangji finally turned his head to look at him. His expression remained impassive, yet his brows were slightly knit. Lan Qiren was shaking so hard even his goatee was trembling.  He shouted, “Such ignorance!”  Everyone within the Orchid Room was stunned, and Lan Qiren shot to his feet.  “The purpose of exorcism is deliverance! Not only do you pay no thought to the deliverance methods, you want to awaken resentful energy? You are reversing the proper order of things, disregarding ethics!”  Wei Wuxian argued, “Some creatures are impossible to deliver anyway, so why not make use of them? When Yu the Great was taming the waters, he already knew blockage was an unwise plan and that redirection was the way. Suppression is a form of blockage, so isn’t that an unwise method?”  Lan Qiren hurled a book at him and he ducked, continuing his nonsense without batting an eye.  “Spiritual qi is energy. Resentment is also energy. Spiritual qi is stored within the dantian and can be used for great feats, so why can’t resentful qi be used the same way?”  Lan Qiren hurled another book his way and exclaimed sharply, “Then let me ask you! How will you guarantee all this resentful qi will remain under your control and not harm others?!”  Wei Wuxian ducked as he answered, “Haven’t thought that far yet!”  Lan Qiren was outraged. “If you had, then the cultivation world would have no place for you. Get out!” 

🖤 So here I think we should pay attention to how Wei Wuxian wants to "awaken" resentment, not just use what's already there.

Further as we saw with the cultural nuance posts, he wants to fuse skulls together, which... hmm not great.

Then, we see him say that such creatures are impossible to deliver anyway, why not make use of them? But the scenario Lan Qiren gave is to get rid of one (1) ferocious corpse and instead we see Wei Wuxian considering making more of them. And further, he's not really making use of the creatures that already exist, see? Otherwise he wouldn't need to awaken anything.

As we see post-rez, he comments that the eviler the better so as the Yiling Laozu he figured out how to control ferocious corpses like the executioner in this scenario.

But also there is no assumption that this is helping anyone but Wei Wuxian. "So why not make use of them?"

And I think specifically when Lan Qiren is calling out the disregard for ethics, this is mostly about the digging up properly buried corpses and awakening them. Like... as all the cultural nuance posts are trying to say, Wei Wuxian proposes and does the opposite of helping corpses/ghosts move on.

🖤And I think the most ringing argument you can really make about whether Wei Wuxian's guidao has any righteousness at all is when Jiang Yanli speaks up for him. vol 3 chap 15

[...] A-Xian used a different method from the rest of you, but it’s still a skill he cultivated on his own. You can’t write it off as ‘demonic’ just because he claimed a third of the prey that others were never going to capture to begin with.”

🖤 Which we see at Baifeng Shan he's using his ways to help Yunmeng Jiang secure prey. He played his flute and took a nap, while the corpses all ended up at Yunmeng Jiang's camp where they all use a more traditional way of dealing with corpses, i.e. obliteration. He doesn't even go to supervise.

🖤 Wei Wuxian has good in him, but I think it's better to actually look at his good deeds, no matter how selfish they are, than try to attribute inherent goodness to a path notably flaunts ethics and norms to incite yin qi (e.g. yuan qi, resentment) which is harmful to the living and resting dead. Wei Wuxian's character is a subverted villain trope, but what makes him the villain trope is the use of evil ways, i.e. the use of yin qi to seek power to use for one's own ends.

Feel free to reblog with his actual good deeds and intentions 😚

[admirableadmiranda]

Hello again. I wanted to ask a question. I don't think I asked you this before but I may have. Do you believe Wei Wuxian's cultivation pathed harmed him or was inherently harmful? I think Wei Wuxian had gone through trauma after trauma and was never given time after the war to heal. Then, with the whole Wen situation, he was pushed into a corner. I believe the resentful energy exacerbated his already shitty mental health but I don't think it caused it. Do you believe Wei Wuxian cultivation is harmful? Do you think it was the reason he lost control? Or do you think it was just trauma and unfortunate circumstances coming to a head?

Thank you for your time and efforts. I hope you are well and healthy.

Hello! I have already answered this question for others and written some other meta on this and adjacent topics before, but it's been a while, so I'll go ahead an answer this again.

Wei Wuxian's cultivation is only as harmful as any cultivation is. Qi deviation is a risk for any cultivator and while the Nie cultivation is much more risky, there is no form of cultivation that is entirely without risk. It does seem to require a certain amount of emotional stability, which makes sense when you're working with the negative energy out there in the world, but again, that's not entirely unique to his guidao.

I am a firm proponent in the everyone who went through the Sunshot Campaign has some level of PTSD theory, Wei Wuxian included and I very much agree that it definitely exacerbates what comes.

But really it's also the nature of making your own enemy, if you push and push and push and push and cut aside every option and force someone to be your villain, eventually they will snap, no matter how kind and good they are. It may not be permanent, it may be the sort of thing that they can recover from with good time and care and not being horribly persecuted by everyone around them, but very much there is a limit to how much anyone can take. Wei Wuxian reminds us twice in the story that even he cannot be a stone and he can be hurt by things. This is very important and relevant to what happens because really from 17-22, Wei Wuxian's life was a dumpster fire with a few bright times scattered here and there and the circumstances that led to him losing control at Qiongqiu Path were the culmination of literal years of the Jin Clan antagonizing him until eventually something broke, combined with incredibly powerful cultivation and a little PTSD. It's as simple as that.

It's very relevant that in the present day that Wei Wuxian never has a single moment where it's even hinted that his control over his cultivation is slipping no matter how much or in what circumstances he uses it. He goes through some pretty intense stuff through the course of the present day, including all the stuff in the Guayin Temple Hostage Party, but when it comes to his cultivation, he's fine and completely safe. The only things that challenge him are the things controlled by the Yinhufu and Nie Mingjue being on a murdered corpse murder spree and even then, neither of them negatively effect him, just make him have to adapt to what's going on differently. If his cultivation truly were that dangerous, then we would have seen something in the present day, or had some mention of it. But instead he and Lan Wangji carry on merrily with not a hint of concern no matter what's happening when there's guidao going around.

It's the twist of the novel really, Wei Wuxian was always right about his cultivation and the things that people either blamed on his character or his cultivation run much more differently than the popular narrative is willing to admit. CQL in particular really muddies the waters by both giving him health troubles in his first life and doing weird things with his guidao, but in the book itself, his cultivation is only as dangerous as any cultivation.

As a last note, resentful energy is dangerous, yes, but it's almost more of a metaphor at times for resentment of any kind being dangerous. Think about how many people were hurt and killed based on the resentment of men who wanted things they felt they deserved in some way. Think about how the three big antagonists (Xue Yang, Jiang Cheng, Jin Guangyao) all are characterized by the resentment that they bear proudly and take out on everyone around them.

Then think about what Wei Wuxian took from his mother, the words that he passes on to Lan Wangji at the end of the novel. "“My mom said you have to remember the things others do for you, not the things you do for others. Only when people don’t hold so much in their hearts would they finally feel free.”"

Resentful energy is dangerous. Resentment is dangerous. Wei Wuxian knows this, so he doesn't hold on to either, and thus he and the spirits trapped in resentment who listen to him, all fly free in the end.

[violet-petals-in-the-rain]

Tldr: it wasnt the modao, it was the ptsd/stress

I think wwxs control argument comes from ppl not knowing that you also loose control in normal cultivation too if ur under distress, that loosing control has different connotations in xianxia wuxia novels, like if youre under distress, or your cultivation is irregular, you will loose control and qi deviate

What sects made propganada about was that wwx was doing dc (when it wasnt) and that he'd just snap and kill everyone out of irregular cultivation causing him a version of qi deviation (like nmj is bound to)

Which wasn't the case, wwx was right that guidao was steady like normal cultivation, and he was confident, just like normal cultivation he wasnt about to mess up and make the flow irregular to have a qi deviation

But then theres the 300 archers ambushing him after clearing out the dead from area so he cant defend himself, (emotional distress) 3000+ men trying to kill him and killed his shijie (extreme distress) and then siege of burial mounds, if he were on normal cultivation path i think that level of emotional distress would still cause him to 'lose control' in the sense of overexertion leading him to qi deviate

[lgbtlunaverse]

One thing that's fucking hilarious about the modao-guidao distinction is how cql just fucking wrecks it. Because it was apparently sooooo scary and immoral for wwx to raise his friend from the dead they had to assure us that Wen Ning was simply grievously injured and never fully died so no that guy walking around deathly pale with black marks on his neck isn't a corpse, thank you very much. But because Zixuan's gotta die Wen Ning can still be controlled via evil music which means Wei Wuxian has now turned a living human being into a puppet. The literal definition of modao.

I mean they also made him not the inventor of it, so I guess the title grandmaster of demonic cultivation is still inaccurate just like it was for the books, just in a different way lmao.

[withthewindinherfootsteps]

Me, up at 3am, wondering what actually happened with Yanling-Daoren (who ‘was very outstanding. When he first left the mountain, due to his mastery over his skills, everyone praised and admired him, and he became a famous cultivator of the righteous path. But afterwards, people don’t know what he went through, but his personality changed drastically, and he suddenly became a villain who killed people without blinking twice. In the end, he died under thousands of swords.’ (Chapter 40, EXR)):

WWX even draws parallels between them himself when he comments that it was a good thing XXC didn’t tell A-Qing that CSSR and WCZ didn’t give birth to ‘another big villain everybody wanted to beat up’!! We’re never going to get an answer to this, and there’s not enough evidence to conclude anything, but I like to think that it was another WWX situation – YLDR didn’t actually turn evil, but did something against the wishes of the major sects, which all turned against him as a result…

[lancabbage]

Wow. Some awful JC stans have just absolutely harassed the shit out of some poor person who can read Chinese and English and made a post about how modao and guidao are different and the importance of it being translated as such in the novel (which 7S ballsed up big time ffs).

People are creating new accounts on Reddit just to keep saying things to OP, and when they have inevitably lost their cool, retaliating with sarcasm, others are jumping on them and calling them out instead of the people being complete psychos!!! Wtaf?!

I hope OP is okay. I can't believe such a reaction just because they are explaining a fact in the novel that has been mistranslated. And of course it's some of the more extreme stans hitting back saying they are "whitewashing WWX's crimes" and the old "non-consensual surgery" bs regarding JC and the apparent need for WWX to apologise to JC at the end of the novel! Delusional much? I think fucking so!

[yingandzhan]

It really is beautiful and I wish it was portrayed more clearly in the translations as well @prettypunkgeek 😊

Unfortunately, the Untamed is somewhat different to the novel due to censorship and ironically, by adhering to these rules, they have made WWXs cultivation more modao than guidao because they are technically living humans at times, if memory serves me right?

Also, just to clarify, the cultivation world are very well aware of what WWX's path entails and that it is not demonic. They are just calling it modao to disparage his efforts and cover-up the fact he's outshining them all. It is technically an "unorthodox" path because it is not one recognised and used by sects - which is probably why LQR got so worked up, because he's too ridged to explore anything that is not deemed "the correct and orthodox ways". But there are people who not only understand his cultivation, but appreciate and use it freely - which shows us it's really only the jealous and ignorant that call his path evil.

Even in WWXs first life LWJ calls it guidao and understands it's not inherently evil, he just sees signs of WWXs trauma and lack of golden core and arrives at the only logical conclusion he can using the limited information he possessed at the time. Which is why, in WWXs second life LWJ is not bothered that WWX continues to use it and is respectful towards "MXY" when he thought he was just another guidao user.

A lot of stuff floating around about the Chinese concept of hun and po souls in reference to MDZS at the moment, as well as the usual stuff concerning WWX's cultivation, yet again.

Very, very brief explanation on hun/po: When a person dies po souls stay with the dead body and eventually go back to the earth. The hun souls go up to the heavens to face retribution and eventual reincarnate.

Firstly, before I continue, this is not the same for all xianxia novels and beliefs around hun and po. But, from what I can see in the Chinese text, MXTX has it that the hun souls that usually go off to eventually reincarnate when someone dies are trapped on the earth and form ghosts/various types of moving corpses when they possess resentment. Hun is mentioned in a number of places and the most compelling evidence I've found is the name of the Gusu Lan's "evocation" song which is aptly named 招魂 (zhāo hún) - this is the song they play when they are trying to contact a restless spirit using a part of it's body or a beloved item.

This shows us that it is not the po souls they are trying to save or suppress, but the hun souls - they are actively trying to help people move on, unless they have to suppress or even destroy them (preventing them from reincarnating ever again) if they refuse to see reason and pose a threat to the living.

WWXs cultivation gives the souls trapped on earth another chance to move on if 'liberation' does not work. Rather than suppressing the soul and prolonging their time trapped on earth or completely destroying them as is the third and final option available to cultivators, he has invented a fourth option - to help the souls use up their resentment (in a safe and controlled manner) that allows them to move on and reincarnate also. WWXs cultivation method is NOT EVIL and does NOT DISRUPT the reincarnation cycle - he's helping the souls that would usually be suppressed or exterminated. He is saving hun souls by using guidao, he is helping them move on and live again where most cultivators would hunt and destroy them instead.

[layzeal]

I saw your response to the poll and the meta you reblogged and wanted to ask your thoughts on wwx's use of guidao post resurrection. He does have the added benefit of a golden core at this point, but I always read his loss of control in his first life to be tied more closely with the outside pressure he was facing rather than his cultivation (i.e. the use of guidao is what allowed a loss of control to be so destructive but it didn't cause it). My thought was that if guidao was truly so temperamental then there should be consequences to wwx using it post resurrection, but there's not. However, you've probably read much more closely than I have, which is why I'm interested in hearing what you think 👀

we had a conversation on twt about this, so i'll just share here!!

[ninjakk]

A recent reblog on this brought something to my attention with the above addition and I think I may have to disagree with these.

WWX uses the ghosts resentment and directs it where required. In this case he literally reverses the talisman on the outpost office, which was most likely taken by force, just as the rest were. So there will be a LOT of resentful spirits who have been murdered, tortured and possibly even sexually assaulted if the "ghost woman's" actions have anything to say about it - which I think MXTX intended, since WWX thinks of guidao as ghosts obtain revenge, it's rather poetic justice that they should enact the same cruel thing they had to endure before death.

So even if you disagree that WWX doesn't have it in him to think of such sexual violence, (which I stand by because WWX is remarkably innocent and naive considering he read porn - which I don't think he even read properly considering his lack of basic knowledge of certain positions 😆), there is still the fact he was standing outside and letting his reversed talisman take affect. It would coincide with a running theme of the novel, people assuming WWX is some deranged, demon ruthlessly killing without reason and demanding a horde of virgins - when he is in fact the complete opposite. Yes, WWX is traumatised, but he's seeking justice for those that can no longer do so, he's repaying debts and reclaiming honour (for JC mainly!) and he's an inexperienced virgin that's "never felt such hectic feelings" for anyone (except LWJ of course) and guarded his first kiss for 20 years. To me, it just doesn't fit with who he is as a character.

Even more so, how ironic would it be if the very people the Wen sect murdered and tortured were reenacting such awful things on their very own attackers? It would come full circle, it would link everything WWX said in the CR lectures when he first dreamt it up! It's karma, which is perfectly in line with the religious beliefs of the time and in the novel.

I don't think comparing JCs and WWX's mindset is the right route here either, they are to a certain extent each other's foils. Granted, they are both on a similar page when it comes to revenge for the sects downfall (but that's the cultural setting, when it's an eye for an eye type revenge, so everyone will have a similar stance on this), but that doesn't mean they would react in the same way. JC assaulting WLJs corpse is actually more of an act of revenge to him personally - this woman kicked his dead mother's body, so that was just a morbidly poetic reference to things coming full circle once again.

So, personally, I don't think WWX is capable of such things.

Who were the ghosts that attacked Wen Chao and Wang LingJiao?

The torture and murder of WC and WLJ are some of the most gruesome scenes in MDZS. To me, they are particularly harrowing. Not only because of the implied violence and gore, but the heartbreaking revelation of WWXs mental state after escaping the Burial Mounds.

The contrast between WWX's sudden paled appearance and cold demeanor, against the vivacious and warm WWX we all know and love, always makes me incredibly emotional. Obviously this is because he has been through an extremely distressful experience and is tremendously traumatised. It's quite obvious his thirst for revenge is one of the things that kept him going during his time in the Burial Mounds. Which is why, when he finally emerges from the awful hellhole he was trapped in, his attacks are particularly brutal. I'm currently working on a post about WWX's trauma, which is taking me some time, as it's quite an emotional ride - so we won't go into that too much here. Instead, I want to take a look at something that stood out to me on my first read and even more so on a re-read.

When reading the scenes mentioned above, I noticed a few things with regards to the ghosts WWX used to torture and kill WC and WLJ. Personally, I think MXTX hints that the female and child ghosts used to attack WC and WLJ, have some form of connection to the two in some way.

Wen Chao cried sharply in pain. It sounded especially jarring in the empty courier station. Jiang Cheng asked, “Why is his voice so sharp?” Wei WuXian, “Of course it’d be with a certain thing gone.” Jiang Cheng was disgusted, “You’re the one who did it?” Wei WuXian, “It’s nasty if you think about it that way. Of course, I wasn’t the one who cut it off. It was bitten off when his woman went mad.”

Chapter 62 ExR

When I first read the above scene, I had a sudden realisation that WLJ couldn't possibly be the "woman" that WWX was referring to. Prior to WC being attacked, WLJ stuffed a broken stool leg down her throat, while under the influence of an unseen ghost - perhaps even possessed at that moment in time.

On the ground, Wang LingJiao had already picked up one leg of the stool, frantically stuffing it into her mouth, laughing as she did, “Fine, fine, I’ll eat it, I’ll eat it! Haha, I’ll eat it!” An entire chunk of the leg had been stuffed down by her!

Chapter 61

Not long after the above scene, JC and LWJ find her in the same horrific position with the stool leg firmly in her mouth.

The doors to Wen Chao’s room were wide open. Only one female corpse remained in the room. The corpse wore light clothes. Half of the leg of a stool had been stuffed down her throat. She had killed herself by forcing herself to swallow the stool leg into her stomach.

Chapter 61

With this in mind, it couldn't have been WLJ who attacked WC. She was already dead or dying while choking on the stool leg. You could argue that she might have taken it out of her mouth, after she had turned into a corpse that WWX could control to attack WC, swallowing the stool leg again once she had finished. But that doesn't really make much sense. MXTX purposefully drew attention to the fact the stool leg was still in her mouth when JC and LWJ found her. There is even a rather grotesque point where JC attempts to shove the stool leg into her mouth further, when he is kneeling by her corpse. This scene is used not only to emphasise JCs hatred and character, but to draw further attention to the stool leg still being in WLJs mouth. If this scene was purely to show JC's hunger for revenge, MXTX could have had JC slap her corpse - just as JC overheard WLJ state she wanted to slap Madam Yu's corpse after the massacre at Lotus Pier.

I have seen some people in the fandom claim that because of the above contradictions, WWX must be lying. As WLJ, "his woman" was already dead. As such, people insinuate WWX must have bitten off WCs private part himself! Which is ludicrous! He might not be acting himself at this moment in time due to the mass amount of trauma he's endured, but he's not going to do that! Especially if he has others under his control, that are so eager to attack WC in his place.

When WWX said "his woman", I think he was referring to the ghost woman in the room with them at that moment in time. Not WJL as some people assume, but the one who was currently there to torment and kill WC. To me, WWXs words pretty much confirm that he is using one of WCs dead mistresses to torture him to death.

As he spoke, the blue-faced woman crawled toward him using both her arms and her legs. When she had been fighting, her face was almost hideous, but now, with her dark face against Wei WuXian’s lap, she somehow seemed to be a charming concubine, obediently pleasing her master.

Chapter 62

The ghost is even described as a seemingly charming concubine, which could be a hint to her past relationship with WC. Given WCs character, and the fact we know he is a huge unscrupulous lech who treats women as objects - it's not much of a jump to assume this ghost was one of his many mistresses or a "sexual conquest" from the past.

Wen ZhuLiu grabbed the child’s head with his left hand, as though to put so much force on the small, cold head that it exploded. The blue-faced woman threw the bloodstained bandages on the ground and, like a four-limbed creature, she crawled to Wen ZhuLiu’s side almost instantly. A swing of her arm and there were ten lines of blood. The two dark beings, one large and one small, wrangled with him incessantly.

Chapter 62

Of course, there is also the ghost child. The two appear to be working together and the ghost woman seems protective of the child - as we can see from the above. I think this is insinuating that the child might be the ghost woman's offspring and possibly even WCs illegitimate child. It would make more sense then WWX having summoned a random ghost child. If the ghosts already had strong resentment towards the WC and WLJ, (especially if they caused their death in some way) it would also help strengthen WWXs attacks on them both.

A long-haired woman in red clothes, her face blue, fell heavily onto him. The dark face, bright red clothes, and black hair created a chilling contrast. Her fingers wrapped around the bandages around Wen Chao’s head and tore!

Chapter 62

The two scenes above are even somewhat reminiscent to the chapter where the corpses of the Mo family were working together to attack the ghost hand that killed them at the start of the novel. I think the parallels between this scene and the scene at Mo Village are quite deliberate and are intended to help suggest that something very similar is happening with the two unknown ghosts in the scenes in question.

Aside from being unable to defy Wei WuXian’s command, the family also loathed the creature that killed them, and let out their anger on the ghost hand.

...

The three corpses and the hand were in the middle of a tough battle, when Mo ZiYuan abruptly moved out of the way. His abdomen area was attacked by the hand, causing a few chunks of his intestines to spill out. As Madame Mo saw this, she screamed incessantly and shielded her son behind herself.

Chapter 5

Not only do we see a mother protecting her child, but we see WWX use the resentment they have towards the hand that killed them, in order to attack it. Which could be exactly what is happening in the chapters with the ghost woman and child.

Wei WuXian took his hand away after patting on the white ghoul child’s sparse-haired head. Holding what he had fed it in its mouth, it turned around and sat down. Hugging his leg, it chewed fiercely as it glowered at Wen ZhuLiu with cold, glistening eyes. What he was chewing were two human fingers. Needless to say—they must be Wen Chao’s fingers!

Chapter 62

Chewing on WCs fingers has a particularly gruesome, yet disturbingly poetic irony to it all if the theory of the ghost being his illegitimate child is true. The ghost child is literally biting the hand that (possibly) should have fed him!

There are a number of hints that could support the theory that WC and WLJ know the ghosts who are attacking them and that they might have had a hand in their demise. If we piece together the little hints that have been left for us, there seems to be an undercurrent of something more sinister being alluded to within the subtext.

She had been following Wen Chao for almost half a year. Half a year was the most time that Wen Chao could spend on a woman, from loving her to becoming tired of her. She had thought that she was different, that she was the one who could stay until the end. However, Wen Chao’s growing irritation during the past few days had told her already. She was no different from the other women.

Chapter 61

The above confirms that WC tires of his mistresses quite easily, usually within six months. From earlier chapters, the reader is already aware WC was married, but still openly flaunted his mistresses and promiscuity. Obviously I'm sure he usually just casts them aside rather than murdering them! Otherwise, there would be a pretty big body count from the sounds of it! But if we consider the fact WC usually tires of his latest conquest within six months, we can assume he dumped this particular mistress way before she'd given birth to the child, more than likely way before she even knew she was pregnant. Perhaps after giving birth she thought presenting him with his child would help her situation, similar to JGY and MXYs mothers holding out hope on JGS taking an interest in his illegitimate children. WC is a cold-hearted, self-centred, greasy, vain psychopath who doesn't care for anyone but himself. It certainly wouldn't be out of character for him to decide to get rid of a mistress and his illegitimate child, because it was an inconvenience to him.

Obviously all we can do is speculate, as there is no solid evidence in the text around the child being WCs. Though the child definitely has a mass amount of resentment towards him and seems connected to the ghost woman in some way - so it is definitely plausible. That being said, I do think we can see MXTX drawing a connection to the ghosts and the two being attacked if we look closely enough.

The chest held all of the valuables and weapons that she had managed to hoard during the half-year of staying by Wen Chao’s side. Valuables she could spend, weapons she could protect herself with. Although she didn’t want it to, the day had finally come.

Chapter 61

So we can see WLJ had a contingency plan for if or when WC got bored of her - as it's apparently something WC does often. She already had an idea that if WC lost interest in her, she would need to leave in a hurry. What is rather interesting from the above, is that WLJ had been stashing weapons away to protect herself with as well. Now I am aware that at present, the cultivation world is at the beginning of a war, so this could be overlooked as her trying to protect herself against the enemy, if all of her current privileges and protection were taken away. But the Wen sect really didn't take the war seriously until very recently, possibly even just in the past few days - as we can see from the below.

Everyone who stood on the Wen Sect’s side took the Sunshot Campaign as a joke. However, three months later, the circumstances didn’t turn out the way they expected them to at all!

Chapter 61

As such, I think WLJ hiding weapons is more of a means to protect herself against a more imminent threat - WC and those under his command, if he decides she is no longer of use to him. We have already witnessed how cold hearted and ruthless WC and WLJ are. They were quite ready to murder or seriously injure MianMian back in the cave of the Xuanwu of Slaughter - so killing and physically harming others isn't something out of character for either of them. I think the above scene shows the reader that WC might be accustomed to getting rid of mistresses who become troublesome, and that WJL knows this. WLJ may have even participated in such things to gain her current position by his side, after all she was particularly ruthless to poor MianMian, so she's definitely capable of such cruelty.

As we've seen, WLJ has an extremely jealous streak, which caused her to pick MianMian as the person to be hung up as bait for the Xuanwu of Slaughter. So it's not really much of a stretch to think WLJ might have had a hand in bumping off her rival and her poor child as well. It wouldn't be much of a surprise if she'd jealousy helped permanently get rid of a mistress who had given birth to WCs child and become too much trouble for him.

From a psychological point of view, looking at what happened to WLJ when she was attacked, we can see a number of things that could support the above even more so.

The woman’s features were all distorted, as though they had been smashed and then pieced together again. The two of her eyes were looking in different directions, the left upward and the right downward. Her entire face was hideously twisted. Wen Chao tried with much effort before he could finally manage to recognize her from her rather revealing robe. This was Wang LingJiao!

Chapter 61

The fact WLJ's face is hideously disfigured is very telling. Whoever attacked her, did so in a very distinctive way. They made her look hideous, they attacked her where it hurts her the most - her beauty. We know the ghost child from later scenes made an appearance in WLJs room, so it's safe to assume that the woman is nearby as well. If the ghost woman was a former mistress who WLJ had a hand in getting rid of, it's definitely something a scorned woman would do to get revenge. Making someone's face look horrifically deformed, sounds very personal to me.

Wang LingJiao staggered before kneeling down and collapsing onto the ground, as though she was kowtowing someone, mumbling, “… I’m sorry… I’m sorry… Let me go, let me go, let me go…”

Chapter 61

WJL is currently being controlled or manipulated by an unseen force. Earlier WJL put a talisman that unbeknownst to her, had been reversed and therefore attracted rather than repelled evil. She also admits that her cultivation is extremely low. With all of that in mind, it's possible that she was possessed by the ghost woman from later scenes, at that moment in time. WLJ is currently half mad and very frightened. She's talking to someone who only she can hear - again possibly alluding to her being possessed by the ghost woman. This makes her words very interesting. Most might assume she is saying sorry to WWX, but he's not actually made an appearance yet - he's outside watching and waiting. To me, WJL is apologising to the ghost woman. Because she's the one who is possessing her, and she is the one who WLJ might have wronged.

On the ground, Wang LingJiao had already picked up one leg of the stool, frantically stuffing it into her mouth, laughing as she did, “Fine, fine, I’ll eat it, I’ll eat it! Haha, I’ll eat it!” An entire chunk of the leg had been stuffed down by her!

Chapter 61

Back to this grotesque scene again! It's quite apparent that the stool leg is suggestive of the scene we now know must follow. The above could even be seen as a metaphor for what happens to WC off page. As I've already explained above, I don't think MXTX intended for us to think WLJ attacked WC. The stool leg is very phallic and the horrendous act seems very personal once again. It's an extremely sexually violent act and not something I think WWX would be capable of thinking of himself. To me it's perhaps something a murdered or scorned mistress would do to her rival in order to exact extreme revenge. Perhaps even a previous mistress who WLJ had a hand in getting rid of, in order to appease WC.

There seems to be two viable options that I can theorise, as to how WWX acquired the two spirits we are later introduced to. One option is the talismans WWX had reversed all around the supervision office that WC and WLJ were occupying. As we know, reverse talismans attract ghosts and corpses within a certain area. So if the poor woman and child met their end nearby and were waiting around for vengeance, they would have been attracted to the area now the talismans were reversed. Or there is the slightly more sinister option that WWX actually met their ghosts along with many others, during his time in the Burial Mounds and brought them along with him when he left. I find the latter option quite interesting, because there is something that stood out to me in chapters 60 and 61, that could support this theory as well.

Wen Chao continued, “Burial Mound is right in Yiling. You Yunmeng people have probably heard of its name as well. It’s a mountain of corpses, an old battleground. If you find a spot wherever on the mountain and dig your shovel into it, you’ll be able to dig out a corpse. Any nameless corpses would be tossed here as well, wrapped in a mat only.”

Chapter 60

Wen Chao immediately refuted her, “It’s impossible even if he’s dead! The people who died in Burial Mound, all of their souls would be shackled there.

Chapter 61

WC seems to know just how convenient the Burial Mounds is if you want to get rid of someone, keeping their soul trapped there in the process. It certainly wouldn't surprise me if WC had used this place as a personal dumping ground for anyone that displeased him.

Apparently MXTX mentioned somewhere in her author's notes that certain things had to be edited or removed due to censorship issues. Perhaps she originally intended for WLJ to attack WC in the above scenes, but decided to rewrite it. Some claim this scene might have been censored and this is MXTX's attempt at working around it. But personally I think that if MXTX wanted to insinuate WLJ was "his woman" without showing such extreme sexual violence, she would have had the reader notice the stool leg was no longer in her mouth in later scenes. Allowing the reader to notice it was still in her mouth, not once but twice, seems very deliberate to me. With that in mind, I think that even if this was MXTX working around censorship, she most likely still intended for the ghost woman to be the one who committed the violent act and had to do so off page and hint as such instead. It definitely ties in with the rest of the evidence in the text and is even reminiscent of the first time we see WWX using his cultivation technique at the start of the novel. It also somewhat echoes his theorising at the Cloud Recesses, where he first talks about arousing resentful energy and using it as a weapon.

Personally I think once you accept WWX is talking about WCs "woman" being the ghost woman, there seems to be hints to an even darker subplot just under the surface. The fact WLJ has a contingency plan for if when WC tires of her and that the plan involves weapons to protect herself with, is in my opinion rather telling. The fact WWX is known for harnessing the resentful energy that an entity under his control has for others, as a way to enhance his attacks is also a compelling argument that strengthens the above theory as well. I certainly think this is a credible theory and even helps explain a part of the plot that some have found a little confusing, due to what may come across as inconsistencies in the chapters in question.

[adhdo5]

There is someone fucking it up on the flute somewhere in the music building rn like full donghua Chenqing style

[admirableadmiranda]

Hello! How are you feeling? How's life training you?

I have come with another question, if you're up to it. (I'm sorry if I'm asking a bit too many questions.)

I read a fic yesterday that stated that Wei Wuxian caused thousands of souls from entering the rebirth cycle. That he killed souls indiscriminately. My assumption is that they took an accusation from The Untamed (fic was based on the live action) as fact. But is there any indication that any of the spirits or corpses used by Wei Wuxian were unable to reincarnate or not put to rest once he was done?

Hello! I’m doing okay, I’m getting over a cold, my tumblr inbox is suffering because life has been too busy for essay long questions but I promise I’ll get there eventually. I have a week coming up in March where I’ll just be at home on recovery so plenty of time will be there then!!

This one on the other hand (as long as you don’t mind me skipping the breakdown of souls in Chinese beliefs again) is pretty short.

So Wei Wuxian isn’t manipulating anything that wasn’t already trapped on earth to begin with. The part of the soul most needed to reincarnate dies and goes into the afterlife when the person does, and the leftover bits join them when the body is buried. This is why burial rites are really important and most all of our resentful spirits/corpses we see usually weren’t buried. That in and of itself makes an unhappy spirit that can’t move on and if given enough time, even burying it won’t help without additional work to deal with their spirit.

Wei Wuxian, contrary to popular belief (and I don’t even know if it’s a CQL error or people making shit up and using stuff in CQL to justify it) isn’t trapping anyone on earth. He’s actually helping get rid of the lingering resentful souls and stuff that’s busy being angry at still being in the world with his cultivation; spending time with dead flower girls who want to pass on their knowledge and enjoy being alive a little longer, helping souls who died violently get revenge on their killers so they can be at peace, letting them fulfill last wishes just as A-Qing keeping people out of Yi City and wanting Xue Yang dead was hers (even if she was cruelly shattered before he could finish the task). His guidao tends to be a net positive wherever he goes because he is working with the existing misery in the area and getting rid of it.

This is why in the war he had to make angry spirits by digging up bodies and aggravating them enough to create his army before people started dying. This is why in Qiongqi Path 2.0 Jin Zixun has his men remove every corpse or dead thing in miles so that Wei Wuxian is crippled. If there’s nothing there to work with, then he can’t cultivate. He can’t create resentment that doesn’t already exist.

Even in Wen Ning’s case, what he has done is bind his living soul to his dead body, but Wen Ning can still die again when he’s ready. Wen Ning is still around because Wen Ning isn’t ready to go. Wen Ning wants to live more, he’ll pass on when he’s ready.

So really anything about him ruining souls for reincarnation or pulling them out of the cycle is a load of bullshit usually based off of a complete lack of knowledge of how Chinese souls and ghosts work in general and then used to blame him for being who he is (and also usually used to exonerate villains I’m sure you’ve seen too)

Hope that helps!